Even in the darkest days of the mid-90's, we GM drivers could count on having more grunt to call upon than those Japanese competitors. The 1997 Regal GS and Grand Prix GTP offered 240 hp and 280 lb/ft of torque when a 1997 Honda Accord offered a pathetic 170/165.

Fast forward to to 2007, and GM cars are undoubtably better, but are being outpowered by their formerly anemic competition. The next Honda Accord will reportedly offer a 290 hp V6. That's a lot more grunt than the G6 and Aura's 260 hp. And it looks like developing more power might cost money and be a little while off, given that the CTS is just now getting a 300 hp 3.6L engine that needed direct injection to get there.

Are there any other outlets to delivering mid-sizers that pack some serious punch? I know Pontiac tossed around the idea of a 270 hp 3.9L car, but it hardly seems worth the effort and loss of refinement for 10 more horsepower.

 

Well lets see you could go for a hum ho FWD grocery getter from GM or if you really want performance there will be from Chevy the V8 powered: Camaro, Impala, Tahoe, Suburban, Colorado, Silverado. From Pontiac the V8 G8, the Solstice GXP, and likely an upcoming V8 coupe. From Saturn you have the Aura Redline that will likely be packing a 270ish horses V6, Astra Redline with about 260 hp outta a 2.0 4 cyl. And then we have the Caddy V series.

I don't think that GM is behind on anything performance wise. Their midlevel engines in people movers might be beaten by the top V6s from the competition but GM steps above that with its performance vehicles.

Lets not forget that GM produced the 303 hp V8 FWD GP GXP, Impala SS and the upcoming Lacrosse Super for those who want FWD performance.

 

Sure, no doubt. I should have made my title more specific - to midsize. Still I think it's something of a problem. Midsize is where the volume is afterall.

Maybe it's just a bragging rights thing, but I'd like to see the G6 and Aura at least offering some more serious power.

 

I can scarcely think of a single modern car in which "underpowered" could even appear in the same paragraph.

Not one soccer mom or highschool freshman needs 300 horsepower to help them hit a wall while talking on a cell phone or drinking a latte. Not one person needs 300 hp to ensure they can do 90 in the rain because they're late for a personal training appointment. Not one needs more power in their inexperienced hands to neccesitate more safety gizmos they create more weight and suck up more gas and make us use more oil we already don't have.

Underpowered? I think not.



[/rant]

 

As we beat to death in another thread, we do not always stay in that (peak) 300hp sweet spot when driving.

We tend to spend our daily drives at probably 35% throttle or less.

What 300hp would do for me, is allow me to casually accelerate easier, with less throttle and strain, and maintain traction. And would allow me to maintain some power when I have a car full of people and groceries, for example....
Where as redlining my 190hp car to get out in a busy district @ rush hour might get a little unnerving.

I for on think my '03 Buick Rendezvous is underpowered,(3.4L) unless empty, and just 2 occupants...then it's just adequate. Torque curve is weak...

We may not need 300hp for every daily driver, but at least more area under the power curves...broader more usable, more powerful curves.

 

That's all well and good, but unless the Federal government regulates horsepower in cars, it will be a matter of what the market demands. Right now, mid-size cars are going up significantly in power, and I don't GM would be serving itself well by suddenly getting a corporate conscience and self-imposing a 1960's-like cap on corporate horsepower.

Also, just as you noted that no modern car is truly underpowered, it's worth pointing out that upping the horsepower a bit won't suddenly cause a spike in car crashes. Kids and and do kill themselves just as easily in 160 hp Civic.

 

To me, I don't feel that GM cars are underpowered, it is just that a few of the Japanese cars have really surprised me lately the the HP numbers.

Dan

 

With stock Saturn V6 family sedans are doing 14's in the 1/4mi, FWD Impala SS's the fastest Impalas ever and GMC pickups with more power than a C5 or C6, and Cobalts as fast as LT1's I'd have to say no.

That Honda engine you speak of is a Direct Injection V6. Saturn Aura Redline is said to be getting a DI V6 too, but it will be 300HP+

 

I hear where you are coming from, GM use to offer V6s when the competition only offered 4 cylinders, now they are up to high powered V6s and GM has moved up to V8s to try and keep ahead. Meanwhile GMs V6s are becoming over ran by the competition. A lot of the imports V6s have been at the 260 hp range for a few years now, while the 3.6 is just now getting wider use through out the GM line up.

 

I'm gonna go off on a sort of an opposite mini-rant here. And Good Ph.D, this isn’t a personal attack on your response, I totally agree. However, it drives me nuts to see all these threads talking about whether or not a car in a certain market needs more power and someone says that from a personal position it doesn't and cars already have too much power.

It doesn't matter what people need or what you think they need, it matters want they want. To quote Joe Dirt (never thought I’d say that), “it’s not what you want, it’s the consumer.” Just look at most SUV drivers or everyone on here that drives a Z28 or SS for crying out loud,. Does anyone need that? No. But that's what you want and that's what you buy. If GM is "underpowered" in a market and they're losing sales b/c of it, then yes they do need to increase the horsepower. However, just b/c it isn't the power leader in a category doesn't mean it needs more power and that's the reason it's losing sales. You need to look no further than the 4th gen to see that example.

And also while you never really hit peak horsepower, those numbers sell. Why? B/c that’s marketing. Look at the pride people take in posting dyno numbers in their sig. I bet they rarely see that peak number.
And also of note, I agree that a large powerband is more important than peak horsepower, but most people out there don't understand the difference and to them 250 is bigger than 200 plain and simple.

Sorry if this is a jumbled mess.

 

Sweet 96Z - thanks for explaining exactly what I was trying to say. Of course cars are not "underpowered" in absolute terms. Even a Chevy Aveo is powerful machine capable of hurtling its passengers to unseemingly ridiculous speeds. However, customers want what they want, and right now they want horsepower.

I just think it would be a shame if, in the midst of GM's immense strides in product developement, the company lost one of its natural advantages. American cars are generally perceived as having a lot of power. It wouldn't be that hard for the General to maintain that perception.

 

Good point, lots of advancements in engine technology that is trickling down. A 300hp Accord...thats hard to imagine untill Acura gets a 300hp V6. Not even the RL has a 300hp V6.
I figure that the next gen Accord will have a 260-270hp V6 to match the Camry's new motor.

 

I think you have the whole thing skewed completly out of proportion, and here's why.

First, you compare a 240 horse top performance model Grand Prix to an 170 horse engine on a family hauler. That 170 horse was right in line with what all cars in it's class had at the time.

Second, you completely blur the line between performance models and volume models. The buyer of a car isn't basing his purchase decision on who has the bigger p*nis, but what offers the best value, best quality, and is powerful enough to get out of trouble if needed.

Third, you seem to be involved in a mental performance race that isn't playing out in the real world. Less powerful Mustangs whipped the snot out of far more powerful Camaross in sales. The best selling car in the US is a modest Toyota Camry and a Honda Accord. Ask them how many horses are under the hood of their cars, and you'll get a blank look. Ask them about fuel economy or how their car faired in Consumer Reports, and you'll get detailed answers.

Sure, performance cars are quicker today than ever before, but at the same time, there are no real "dogs" in showrooms anymore. Any notion that GM is getting slower is pretty far fetched as far as cars that real people buy.

Horsepower numbers are thrown around to get us 10 percenters (no more than 10% of the car buying public are enthusiasts who buy based heavily on performance) intrested in their cars. Something to seal the deal when couples come in and the guy would rather be buying something else but for the need of a dependable 4 door.

Finally, as is being discussed in the Ford V8 thread here, it's TORQUE that determines acceleration, not simply horsepower numbers.

Going back to the 90s, as I recall, GM's low powered 3.8 V8s were keeping up with, or outaccelerating supposedly higher horse Accords. This was because these cars had far lower torque, and the torque they did have, you had to rev the begueezus out of them to get it.

Take the Honda 2000s. It has 240 horsepower. But it has a measely 162 lbs/ft of torque that doesn't come in play till 6800 rpm! The Solstice GXP has 260 hp, and 260 lbs/ft of torque. Guess which has more off line and rolling start punch?

Again, looking at horsepower numbers and making a blanket assumption isn't probally the smartest way of measuring things. That Aura you dismissed is one of the hottest sedan on the market right now, and is on track to do serious damage to Accord's sales crown and any negitive perceptions about GM and American cars in general.

 

The only place I can even see this argument would be with the Equinox/Torrent
Chevy 3.4= 185 hp
Nissan 3.5= 240 hp
Toyota 3.5= 269 hp
Mazda 2.3 T/C= 244 hp

The Chevy and the Pontiac are comparable to everything else in there class. Also, this is not a big deal. If you Drive a Torrent it feels like it has more power than 185 horses. Everyone I have talked to says that as well.

 

Torrent GXP and Nox Sport all get a 250 or 270hp version of the 3.6 and a 6spd auto trans. I dont know if they get a 3.6 as standard, but the Vue's optional V6 is ONLY the 3.6, no more Honda.