Help me pick a cam

Hey everyone,

I'm still pretty new to the LS1 world. I only have the most minor bolt on mods only, as you can see. However, it's build up time this summer.

In addition to a cam, I'll also be doing the Pacesetter long tubes (still deciding on what ORY, but thats another thread) and dyno tune.

My LT1 ran a hot cam because I had no plan for heads. However, I am going to do heads, but probably not this year. I would likely go with Patriot Stage IIs.

My goals: Pre-heads, I guess I would like to hit 330-350 rwhp, if possible, on a cam/header/tuned car. Once I go with heads, I would like to try and push 400 rwhp (obviously re-tuned and more supporting mods)

The car is an M6. It is an everyday driver year round. I plan on doing mostly street driving, with an autocross orientation (will get supporting suspension mods), but something still respectable at the strip. I would probably prefer something in the mid-rpm power band with a balanced torque curve. I don't think I wanna rev much higher then 6200 on stock internals until I go with a stroker.

So with that info, I'd appreciate if you could throw some cam ideas at me. If you have any questions please let me know. I've have searched around, but of course every person looks for something different.

Also, PLEASE suggest everything else you would think I would need. Obviously springs are a must. Pushrods? Lifters? Retainers? etc. The car only has 41k miles on it, and it runs beautifully, very strong.

As always, I appreciate your help

224/228 .581/.588 110+2 LSA cam
Talk to Thunder Racing about their custom lobes designed with CompCams. ;)
http://www.camaroz28.com/misc/vendorindex/img/thunderracing.gif (http://www.thunderracing.com/)

That cam will get you close to 400rwhp without heads on an M6 and is considered a pretty mild cam for an LS1 these days. :) If you don't really want to spin the engine too high, then you're going to want to stay away from cams with bigger durations (ie. int/exh in the 230's).

You'll need, at a minimum, some 918 springs, CM pushrods and supporting gaskets for the swap. As mentioned below, upgrading the oil pump and timing chain are good ideas as well.

I'll just wait for Kraest to chime in and recommend the Futral F13/F14. :)

Hey everyone,

I'm still pretty new to the LS1 world.

My goals: Pre-heads, I guess I would like to hit 330-350 rwhp, if possible, on a cam/header/tuned car. Once I go with heads, I would like to try and push 400 rwhp (obviously re-tuned and more supporting mods)

The car is an M6.

Welcome to the LS1. Your goals are very low ;)

The cam-only LS1 cars are very capable of 400rwhp (LT1 heads/cam territory) and heads/cam cars are capable of 450+ rwhp (LT1 high $$$$ stroker motor territory).

For the cam swap, you can get an entire kit that includes the springs, pushrods, retainers, etc. To do it "right", you'll also want to get the oil pump ported or get an LS6 pump along with an LS2 timing chain set.

Since you have an 01 car, you already have the LS6 intake manifold, so you won't need to touch that until you get the heads, but you'll want to port the TB for optimal results with the cam-only swap. The stock fuel pump is fine and the 2001s had 28# injectors, which are also fine for a cam-only swap.

With that being said, I'd recommend the Futral F13 cam for your setup. It's a proven cam that's very streetable and makes a ton of mid power along with a ton of peak power.

Mike

Thanks for the great advice so far guys.

Sorry about my weak goals! I guess I'm a little too used to the numbers of an LT1 ;) I also wanted to be realistic. I'm not one of those "DOOD HOW DO I GET 400 HORZEPOWER?? WIF AN AIR FILLTAR?" kinda guys.

Mike, thanks for the advice. I'm really glad you posted in my thread and I appreciate the help.

Does this Futral F13 cam go by a different name at retailers? I have seen it mentioned on the boards before, but I don't think I have seen it listed at a vendor. Anyone have the specs off hand? Don't worry if you don't, I'll do a search when I get home from work.

I have seens some spring kits, but I am really interested in a full valvetrain kit like you mentioned Mike. Where should I look for a package that includes springs, pushrods and retainers? I suppose I could make the setup myself, but I want to be sure to have complimentary parts that will work well together.

Back to the goals again, what should I reasonably shoot for on a cammed daily driver M6?

Thanks again!

Thanks for the great advice so far guys.

Sorry about my weak goals! I guess I'm a little too used to the numbers of an LT1 ;) I also wanted to be realistic. I'm not one of those "DOOD HOW DO I GET 400 HORZEPOWER?? WIF AN AIR FILLTAR?" kinda guys.

Mike, thanks for the advice. I'm really glad you posted in my thread and I appreciate the help.

Does this Futral F13 cam go by a different name at retailers? I have seen it mentioned on the boards before, but I don't think I have seen it listed at a vendor. Anyone have the specs off hand? Don't worry if you don't, I'll do a search when I get home from work.

I have seens some spring kits, but I am really interested in a full valvetrain kit like you mentioned Mike. Where should I look for a package that includes springs, pushrods and retainers? I suppose I could make the setup myself, but I want to be sure to have complimentary parts that will work well together.

Back to the goals again, what should I reasonably shoot for on a cammed daily driver M6?

Thanks again!

You're only going to find it at Futral Motorsports, since they are the only ones who send the info to Cam Motion to have it ground. They have the complete packages for everything.

www.futralmotorsports.com

Goals? 400rwhp. ;) Some of the bigger cams can make 420+, but are much less drivable.

For a streetable cam, the 224/228 cam sounds purfect. I was, however, going to recomend a TSP 228 grind which is about the same specs on your choice of an LSA. Not the most agressive cam w/ a wide powerband on a wide LSA. 1400-6800rpm, or somethign close to it. Would be great for Auto X..

330RWHP are doable w/ a catback and lid on your car. Possibly LT's, too. Depending the altitude and stock HP (it varries, GM underrates). I've got a full exh and full induction setup. Last time I was dyno'd, I pulled a measly 336/346 rwhp/tq. I should be near 350/360 now (w/ addition of a couple newest mods).

TSP sells a head and cam combo. Heads, cam, PR's, gaskets, and oil pump of your choice. They have the 224/224 .581 .581 Your choice of LSA and the 228/228 .588 .588 Coice of LSA. The cam mentioned above is a good mix of both. Also an EXH biased cam which would be good for and F.I. car.
http://www.texas-speed.com/shop/item.asp?itemid=680&catid=47

Have fun w/ it do0d!.. :cool:

We recommend and sell the TR 224/224 cam as well. We have a customer car with that cam, headers, exhaust and tuning pull 407 RWHP with excellent drivability.

I wouldn't **** with the TR224. You'll be looking for more power and a bigger cam within 6 months.

...I would probably prefer something in the mid-rpm power band with a balanced torque curve. I don't think I wanna rev much higher then 6200 on stock internals...

I think this is the main reason we were recommending that cam Kraest. Yes, he could make more power with a bigger cam. But, keeping the duration lower with a decent amount of lift will help keep the power band a little lower and in more "useable" RPMs. He'll still be shifting at 6500rpm with a 224 cam vs. the 6800~7000rpm shifts he would have to make to fully use the bigger duration cams that give another 10~15rwhp.

Hey Mike,

Is this the F13 you were talking about?

FMS Custom Grind Camshaft - 230"/232" .595"/.585" 112LSA - aggressive profile with a 2500-6800 RPM range, rough idle (from Futral site)

This cam is pretty intriguing to me, but it seems pretty beefy as well. Is that lift too high that stock heads will constrict flow? Would I be good with this cam if I waited a year and then added heads? That thing is pretty streetable huh?

Bayer, thanks for your input too dood! I'll look at those Texas Speed packages after work.

you guys are the best!

Learn about cams and make your own choice. If you'd rather not, then stick with the 224.

Learn about cams and make your own choice.

.... that was kinda the purpose of this thread.

.... that was kinda the purpose of this thread.
I think he meant you should learn a little more in depth about how cams make power with the timing of valve events, dynamic compression ratios, etc. If you have some reading time invested in those topics (frequently discussed over at LS1Tech.com's Internal Engine forum), you wouldn't need to ask which cam to recommend because you could make your own choice. Some people don't get that involved in the details and would like to have a little help so they can call it a day. Either way, I stand by my recommendation based on the criteria you established at the start of the thread. :)

Something that hasn't been discussed is what final gear ratio are you going to use. If you are staying with the stock rear gears then a FM 13 is probably as big as you want to go for drivabililty. The 224/224 comp is a good daily driver cam.

I think this is the main reason we were recommending that cam Kraest. Yes, he could make more power with a bigger cam. But, keeping the duration lower with a decent amount of lift will help keep the power band a little lower and in more "useable" RPMs. He'll still be shifting at 6500rpm with a 224 cam vs. the 6800~7000rpm shifts he would have to make to fully use the bigger duration cams that give another 10~15rwhp.

Honestly, that's completely incorrect info.

The F13 come 4 degrees advanced and will peak at around 6200 rpm. You shift it at around 6400-6500 max.

My F15 (236/239) was only ground with 2 degrees of advance and it peaked at 6600 in a 346ci motor.

The cam that's currently in my car is retarded 6 degrees to make it peak later since it's a small cam in a big cube motor.

Mike

I think he meant you should learn a little more in depth about how cams make power with the timing of valve events, dynamic compression ratios, etc. If you have some reading time invested in those topics (frequently discussed over at LS1Tech.com's Internal Engine forum), you wouldn't need to ask which cam to recommend because you could make your own choice. Some people don't get that involved in the details and would like to have a little help so they can call it a day. Either way, I stand by my recommendation based on the criteria you established at the start of the thread. :)

Actually, if he spent time reading the amount of bull**** at LS1Tech, he'd be even more confused. :lol:

Hey Mike,

Is this the F13 you were talking about?

FMS Custom Grind Camshaft - 230"/232" .595"/.585" 112LSA - aggressive profile with a 2500-6800 RPM range, rough idle (from Futral site)

This cam is pretty intriguing to me, but it seems pretty beefy as well. Is that lift too high that stock heads will constrict flow? Would I be good with this cam if I waited a year and then added heads? That thing is pretty streetable huh?

Yep. That's the one.

It works perfectly on the stock heads and will work even better when you add a set of heads down the line. It's perfect for both NOW and LATER.

In MY opinion, the TR224 is too small for a heads/cam application because it peaks too early and doesn't fully utilize the extra amount of power that you can make with a good set of heads.

Simply put: You run out of cam with a 224 when you add heads.

Actually, if he spent time reading the amount of bull**** at LS1Tech, he'd be even more confused. :lol:

lol. I posted over there and I have received NO useful information.

The good people at Camaroz28.com ftw.

Anyways, I'm not a total cam noob. I did a lot of the work on my LT1 and I have a very good understanding of dynamic and static compression, duration, lift in realtion to port size, etc. I'm by no means advanced, but I am familiar with the basics.

I am VERY new to the LS1 world. I wanted to gain familiarity with the different setups out there so I can make good decisions, thats why I ask these questions.

Back to the subject: Final gearing is difficult to determine. I was considering eventually stepping up to a 4.10, but that would be waaaaay in the future. I'm very comfortable with the 3.42 in my M6 (this is my manual car as well). I have also considered 3.73 in the past, but everyone seems to discourage that. So its stay 3.42 unless i decide to commit to 4.10 i suppose.

Something that hasn't been discussed is what final gear ratio are you going to use. If you are staying with the stock rear gears then a FM 13 is probably as big as you want to go for drivabililty. The 224/224 comp is a good daily driver cam.

Yep. The F13 will work fine with the stock 3.42s, but I'd recommend getting a 4.10 with a 6-speed for more fun :)

My buddy has been daily driving his F14 Vette for the last 20,000 miles in the last year without a problem.

lol. I posted over there and I have received NO useful information.

The good people at Camaroz28.com ftw.

Anyways, I'm not a total cam noob. I did a lot of the work on my LT1 and I have a very good understanding of dynamic and static compression, duration, lift in realtion to port size, etc. I'm by no means advanced, but I am familiar with the basics.

I am VERY new to the LS1 world. I wanted to gain familiarity with the different setups out there so I can make good decisions, thats why I ask these questions.

Back to the subject: Final gearing is difficult to determine. I was considering eventually stepping up to a 4.10, but that would be waaaaay in the future. I'm very comfortable with the 3.42 in my M6 (this is my manual car as well). I have also considered 3.73 in the past, but everyone seems to discourage that. So its stay 3.42 unless i decide to commit to 4.10 i suppose.

I like the 4.10s in the 6-speed because it makes 6th gear actually usable. The 3.42s make it hard to use 6th under 70-80 mph. :D

I say that your rear gear selection depends on your plans for the car.

If you're going to stay at near-stock power, I'd say 4.10 all the way. The problem is that with 4.10 gears and a stock rev limiter, you're limited to 115.3mph in the quarter (unless you want to shift to 5th gear, which is generally not considered a good idea with respect to minimizing your ET). If you're willing to increase your rev limit to 6500, you can go 120.9mph without shifting to 5th.

So, figure out how fast you want to go on your days at the strip, and figure out if you care about shifting to 5th gear. Figure out what the extra 1-2 highway mpg with 3.73s is worth to you.

Once you know those things, it should be pretty easy to decide.

I like the 4.10s in the 6-speed because it makes 6th gear actually usable. The 3.42s make it hard to use 6th under 70-80 mph. :D
What? I use 6th at 50-55mph all the time (about 1100 rpm). There's not much power, but the car can accelerate well enough, and it's fine with the cruise control set, and I don't mind dropping a gear (or two, or three, or four) when I want better acceleration.

You'll find the trend in the US LS1 world at the moment is towards overly large cams. People are running MS3, MS4 and TRex cams in daily drivers. In Australia they're running narrower LSA, larger lift, shorter duration cams and making great power too. Then you also need to take into consideration how often you're willing to play around with valve springs. More agressive cams will wear them out quicker.

You need to decide if these large cams are good for you or not. Go onto another board or even a different local section of the same board and you'll get more MS3 recommendations than F13 or vice versa. It just depends on whats popular locally.

Another thing to consider is that you usually only hear the good reports on a specific grind. A friend of mine went from the stock like GT2-3 cam that was making 400 hp w/ported heads (from GTP) to the F13 with the same heads and only made a couple more hp. Long story short he is back to the GT2-3.

Why post about this on tech when you can search and find a plethora of data to answer your question for yourself. Thats probably why you didn't get help over there. When a forum sees this same question asked daily it tends to get ignored.

wow great information guys, thank you so much.

It sounds like I am going to have to make some choice on driveability vs power and make a few sacrafices. I'm still paying for the car, so I don't want to commit to an all out power-based setup just yet.

A little more then a Mild cam that I can run on stock heads, but potentially later upgrade with heads that has a smooth mid-rpm powerband would be preferred.

Jake - that was some very helpful information for the strip, thank you.
Kraest - you have me sold on the 4.10s earlier than I wanted to be :D I still think I'm gonna run with the 3.42s for another year or so, maybe upgrade them when I do heads next season.

It seems like this thread is turning into the 224 vs the F13. Is there something in the middle ground that would satisfy my preferences, or should I commit to a setup featuing one of those?

Thanks again!

Honestly, that's completely incorrect info.

The F13 come 4 degrees advanced and will peak at around 6200 rpm. You shift it at around 6400-6500 max.

My F15 (236/239) was only ground with 2 degrees of advance and it peaked at 6600 in a 346ci motor.

The cam that's currently in my car is retarded 6 degrees to make it peak later since it's a small cam in a big cube motor.

Mike
Guess I was off a little. I should know better than to assume... :lol:

Anyway, did you see this thread Wheelman?

http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=594101&highlight=224%2F228

wow great information guys, thank you so much.

It sounds like I am going to have to make some choice on driveability vs power and make a few sacrafices. I'm still paying for the car, so I don't want to commit to an all out power-based setup just yet.

A little more then a Mild cam that I can run on stock heads, but potentially later upgrade with heads that has a smooth mid-rpm powerband would be preferred.

Jake - that was some very helpful information for the strip, thank you.
Kraest - you have me sold on the 4.10s earlier than I wanted to be :D I still think I'm gonna run with the 3.42s for another year or so, maybe upgrade them when I do heads next season.

It seems like this thread is turning into the 224 vs the F13. Is there something in the middle ground that would satisfy my preferences, or should I commit to a setup featuing one of those?

Thanks again!

Once again, I don't think the 224 is a great choice because you're leaving alot on the table once you do heads. You want to do a good cam for both now and later. The F-13 is honestly very drivable and makes great power cam-only and heads/cam.

With that being said, a cam in the middle of the two that also has seen great success (I've seen it hit over 450rwhp with a heads/cam setup) would be the F-11.

Mike

F-11 or any 226 or 228 grind with decent lobes. Different lobe designs is another area I'd suggest you investigate before buying a cam.

F-11 or any 226 or 228 grind with decent lobes. Different lobe designs is another area I'd suggest you investigate before buying a cam.

I agree, you mentioned that you might add a set of Patriot heads later on, are you aware that they sell a 226/226- 585/585 with a 112 lsa that is pretty popular and a very good price of $ 280 or somewhere close to that price. That is the cam I bought, but I still have not gotten around to installing it yet ,but I have heard it in someone elses car and it sounded awesome.:D

I'm running a 226/226 grind. It isn't Patriot though its a GTP420.

Thanks again on all the input everyone.

I have been kicking this around awhile now, and I think I'm pretty much sold on the F13.

I have noticed this trend that others have mentioned of the big nasty peak horsepower numbers with Trex, MS3, MS4. Honestly, I don't care.

Powerband performance, consistency, and reliability are my priorities. While it may be nice to throw down a big HP number, I'd be more impressed myself with a nice torque curve, and being that its gonna be a few year before this car is going to be an all out race monster, I'd like to keep the max power in the 6200-6400 range for safety. This is a daily driver that I want to be able to have fun with, make an occassional track visit, and enjoy the sound of.

It sounds like the F13 is perfect for that.

Considering I will be staying with stock heads for awhile - what other supporting mods am I going to need? Pacesetter coated LTs will be added soon. Engine only has 42k miles on it. Still need oil pump and chain? Obviously I need springs and pushrods. Anything else?

Thanks!

Thanks again on all the input everyone.

I have been kicking this around awhile now, and I think I'm pretty much sold on the F13.

Considering I will be staying with stock heads for awhile - what other supporting mods am I going to need? Pacesetter coated LTs will be added soon. Engine only has 42k miles on it. Still need oil pump and chain? Obviously I need springs and pushrods. Anything else?

Thanks!

The F13 is a no-brainer for what you want ;)

Ported Oil Pump, LS2 Timing Set, and I'd go with the titanium retainers.

For 15 additional RWHP:
Ported TB ($125), Underdrive Pullies ($200)