Heads and Cam VS. procharger

sorry, didnt know if this should go here or in forced induction.

How much power can i gain from a good set of heads & cam. or just a cam? on a stock internals engine. mods listed below if that helps. Just curious because i wanted to go the procharger route, but i can get a nice set of heads & cam for half the price. Is this better or worse for hte life of the engine?

any feed back would be appreciated.

thanks.

From a good cam, you could see as much as 50rwhp, assuming you get a good tune. With heads, that number goes WAY up. With a stock bottom end, you're looking at 450+ rwhp with all of the usual supporting mods. I know Kraest's old C5 made 471. To get higher than that with a stock bottom end, you'd be looking at a VERY agressive cam.

With a supercharger, assuming you leave the engine internals alone, you can get quite a bit higher. The car will have nicer manners on the street, and your cruising fuel economy will be better than with a heads/cam package. I'll use Kraest as an example again here -- I think his supercharged C5 (which he bought after selling the 471hp one) made ~540 rwhp.

It's probably important to note that you're not going to hit 450rwhp with a heads/cam setup that costs half of what a supercharger costs.

I don't see headers on your mod list -- that's restricting you now, and will restrict you a lot more after you install a heads/cam package or a supercharger. Stock LS1 manifolds are pretty good, but a set of longtube headers will free up quite a bit of power.

It's also important to note that anywhere north of 400rwhp, you're looking at stressing several components of your stock drivetrain beyond what they were designed to handle. At the very least, you'll need a better clutch, and you should probably think about investing in a stronger rear end.

I'm just spewing stuff I learned from the other guys here. Hopefully people with actual experience will chime in. :)

funny you mention it. pacesetter LTs are on their way, as well as a new cluch and strange 12-bolt later this summer :-). I really watned to do the procharger, but i had heard taht i could get the same from heads and cam for 1/2 the price. I guess my source wasnt that accurate. should i look into a cam with the blower? or will the blower on a stock internals engine be fine. should i upgrade antyhing else in the engine? rods, bearings, etc?

whats the procharger go for now, $5400?

h/c= $1900-3000
stroker kit=$1900
n2o=$1000

600+rwhp= ~$4900+labor ($5900 total)

i spent $2300 for h/c, installed. with my other mods im at 420rwhp. i can get a 382/383 stroker kit for as low as $1300 (eagle brand) on e-bay if you catch it right, otherwise $1700. so with that and n2o you are looking a t a sick engine and its forged so you can add a s/c on later anyway.

yes, about 5400 for the procharger and twin intercooler set up.

but the thing abou the blower, is it is pretty docile on the roads when you want it to be. not to mention, i dont need to rebuild my engine, i only have 35,000 miles on it. i want to save the rebuild for when i need it. and when that is the case, i already have the blower too.

Do it all. Heads, cam, built motor, blower, 600+ hp :D

Another vote for the blower. I love the whine too :-)

Do it all. Heads, cam, built motor, blower, 600+ hp :D

sounds great. anyone wanna donate a dollar to the cause? ;)

im gonna stick with my current plan. blower on a stock motor. when the motor starts to go, built motor with a blower. procharger said they can even rebuild the blower (bearings and such) and make it like new.

Yup. I am only pushing 5psi, so hoping it will last a while too. Just remember that there is a lot more than just the blower. I did fuel pump and injectors, water pump belts and hoses, and tuning software/dyno time. Plus I am upgrading the clutch, did rims and tires, guages, etc etc. Lot more than just the ATI kit....

i am going to replace those thing. the ATI kit comes with new belts and injectors. not sure about the fuel pump, but if it doesnt, im going to get a better one, as well as a water pump. also going to upgrade the radiator to keep that bad boy cool. i just dont want to replace the internals of a 35,000 mile engine.

Go with the Procharger. What everyone seems to be forgetting is the torque factor. A great rwhp H/C setup typically has lower torque numbers (ie: my decent H/C setup w/ numbers in sig). A Procharger on the other hand will have a much nicer torque curve....and that's where the "pull" factor comes in. :)

yea, with what i have and what im doing, 550hp/550tq is not gonna be out of the question with 5psi. that should make for a nice day of mustang abuse.

yeah, there's a problem with the procharger figures... :)

Forced Induction is ALWAYS more expensive than you think it is...if you don't believe it, go check out the FI section at LS1TECH and look at the sticky titled "The REAL price of forced induction". Even for a basic Procharger kit making around 450rwhp you can expect to pay $6500+ when all is said and done.

Heads/cam with a stock bottom end you can make as much as 520rwhp with a well set up combination, I.E. TFS heads, Fast 90/90, matching cam (not necessarily huge), bolt ons, etc. You're still going to have $4500 in your motor though.

Stroker you could make 620rwhp, but your looking at probably $7500 at the low end in your motor alone. At this point the price difference between FI and N/A starts evening out...

IMO if you want more than 500rwhp go FI. If your happy with less, stick with N/A.

im aware of the costs. FI makes the most sence for me because i do want a car with 550-600hp that i can drive on the road. I dont mind the extra money. and once again, there is no reason to re-build a low milage motor. besides, the extra points for the kick ass factor of a blower. :D

and the whine...

Since my name has been mentioned already, I'll comment with my experiences since I've owned all 4 LS1 setups (cam-only, heads/cam, forced induction, and stroker):

The Heads/Cam C5 was a fun car, but not very friendly on the street and made power high. That's what you have to remember: If you're putting a bigger cam, better flowing heads, and and intake in a 346ci motor and changing the range of the motor's powerband, then you are going to lose some of your low-end. My heads/cam car turned on at around 4500 and made power until 6800. Powerband = 2300 rpm 471rwhp/416rwtq through a 6-speed.

The Procharged car was a much more street friendly car to drive and could have always made more power by doing a pulley swap and using race fuel It made MUCH more low-end than the heads/cam setup and peaked nearly as high. It turned on around 3500rpm and ended at 6500. It put down 514/466, which is 50 more rwtq through the automatic.

Obviously the way to go is a big cube stroker motor, but that's the most expensive. My 408 makes big low end and high end power. Power comes on around 3500 and pulls to 7200 rpm (7400 rpm rev limiter) Numbers in sig.

With that said, if I had a choice to rank them, I'd say that power and fun (like usual) is proportional to the amount of money spent (unless you're talking about spraying the house down, which IMO is pretty pointless since you never have that power readily available to you at all times)

i look at your descriptions, and the procharger is 100% of what i want. I want the power always there so i dont want spray. i want the car to be road friendly because i do drive it on the street. i want low end power over the high end. and i dont want to rebuild my motor, it only has 35,000 miles on it.

i look at your descriptions, and the procharger is 100% of what i want. I want the power always there so i dont want spray. i want the car to be road friendly because i do drive it on the street. i want low end power over the high end. and i dont want to rebuild my motor, it only has 35,000 miles on it.

If those are your goals, I'd definetly go with the Procharger, like I said before. ;)

Not to hijack this thread or anything, but I have a few questions - hopefully this will help the OP with his choice.

If we are talking a completely stock motor, what kind of support would you need with a blower? The obvious to me would be injectors, a good tune, and a fuel pump. Is stock ignition fine?

What does this look like on internals? Lets shoot with what seems to be the average, 5 PSI. With the stock LS1 compression ratio, rings, 93 octane, etc, what are you looking at for maintenance? How many miles can you put on a blower before your looking at significant maintenance?

As spring is coming, and leaves are growing on the trees, ideas are growing in my head. I have always been a Heads/Cam guy, but that was back in the track days. My car is going to be for mostly fun and dance on the street, much like the OPs it sounds like.

Anyways, sorry for the interruption. I look forward to more info from Kraest, if you wouldn't mind educating us further.

Thanks

From what i understand, you will NEED to do the following with the blower:\
Injectors, fuel pump, belts, tune. Depending on what kit you get, some things are included in the kit. I do belive procharger gives you a fuel pump and injectors, as well as the belt and tuner.

You SHOULD upgrade: water pump and radiator to get the added cooling. Also needed is some more gauges. PSI, better oil pressure, better temp.

If you run with the mild/average boost, it is 4-5psi. aggressive is 7psi and you cant run that on pump gas. you also need a liquid intercooler instead of the air cooled intercooler. Procharger has a intercooler kit that comes with it.

your engine life is going to be based on your driving. if you like to ride out the gears alot, you run the risk of breaking something sooner. if you play it nice, it shoulnt shorten engine life that bad. also, stick with the 4-5 psi.

im sure i missed something, so anyone please chime in.

From what i understand, you will NEED to do the following with the blower:\
Injectors, fuel pump, belts, tune. Depending on what kit you get, some things are included in the kit. I do belive procharger gives you a fuel pump and injectors, as well as the belt and tuner.

You SHOULD upgrade: water pump and radiator to get the added cooling. Also needed is some more gauges. PSI, better oil pressure, better temp.

If you run with the mild/average boost, it is 4-5psi. aggressive is 7psi and you cant run that on pump gas. you also need a liquid intercooler instead of the air cooled intercooler. Procharger has a intercooler kit that comes with it.

your engine life is going to be based on your driving. if you like to ride out the gears alot, you run the risk of breaking something sooner. if you play it nice, it shoulnt shorten engine life that bad. also, stick with the 4-5 psi.

im sure i missed something, so anyone please chime in.

i would like to take the chance to say that u are wrong. My friend represents procharger with his 03 SVT w/ f1-a pushing 25psi, he finally had to upgrade from the stock water-cooled intercooler, to an air-to-air intercooler so that he can run more boost and such. Im no expert on FI, but i would think air-intercooled is better than water-intercooled
also, i never realized procharger stuff is that expensive, i know its not for me lol

I think he was meaning to methanol/water inject for intercooling. If I ever step up pullies to 7psi, I will inject. That is in addition to the air to air intercoolers. So far, with my minimal testing, I only see about 15-20 deg intake rise with the blower thanks to the upgraded intercoolers I got.

If we are talking a completely stock motor, what kind of support would you need with a blower? The obvious to me would be injectors, a good tune, and a fuel pump. Is stock ignition fine?

What does this look like on internals? Lets shoot with what seems to be the average, 5 PSI. With the stock LS1 compression ratio, rings, 93 octane, etc, what are you looking at for maintenance? How many miles can you put on a blower before your looking at significant maintenance?

Anyways, sorry for the interruption. I look forward to more info from Kraest, if you wouldn't mind educating us further.

Thanks

The stock ignition is fine for any setup that I've ever seen. You'd need 36-42# (the 36# Ford Motorsports will work closer to 42# using the LS1 fuel pressure, so those would be perfect if you're using the stock pulley. Get the 42# FMS if you want to be safe or want more boost in the future.) Maintenance on it is the same as any other car (I'd run a full synthetic oil changed 3-5k miles) along with changing the Procharger oil, which they recommend changing every 6000 miles. You will also need an aftermarket fuel pump (255lph) like the Racetronix or something similar. Properly maintained, the blower will last indefinitely. I know the one on my other car was on the car for 3 years and the car operated flawlessly.

From what i understand, you will NEED to do the following with the blower:
You SHOULD upgrade: water pump and radiator to get the added cooling. Also needed is some more gauges. PSI, better oil pressure, better temp.

If you run with the mild/average boost, it is 4-5psi. aggressive is 7psi and you cant run that on pump gas. you also need a liquid intercooler instead of the air cooled intercooler. Procharger has a intercooler kit that comes with it.


The stock water pump and radiator are fine and there's no need to upgrade to a gauge pod unless you like the way they look. The stock stuff works fine.
The Air-Air intercooler works very well. The stock system is at 5-7psi.

If you want to run more boost, the easiest way is to get lower compression is to buy some cheap LQ9 heads, which are around 72cc and will lower the compression to around 9.5-9.6:1

Mike