Why GM irks me

Holden is shipping the Commodore over to us to be the new Pontiac G8 and that will be a sweet ride. There are 2 problems though

1. One we are talking about 2008
2. We get a 6.0L making only 362hp

Vauxhall is getting a copy of the Commodore called the VXR8 in July 2007. It will have a 6.0L engine producing 420hp with a supercharged version soon to follow with 500+hp.

Maybe some of you know more about why, but from the viewpoint of a normal car fan - that plain sucks.

The had one in studio on the last Top Gear, but they have not drivin yet. I am hoping the review a Zeta car in the Summer series starting in July.

Commodore
http://www.webwombat.com.au/motoring/images/holden-ve-commodore-1.jpg

Pontiac G8
http://cache.jalopnik.com/assets/resources/2007/02/pontiac_g8_gt_show_car.jpg

VXR8
http://www.houstoncars.org/wp-content/uploads/f090013d6f5b_93B3/vauxhallvxr82.jpg

Holden is shipping the Commodore over to us to be the new Pontiac G8 and that will be a sweet ride. There are 2 problems though

1. One we are talking about 2008
2. We get a 6.0L making only 362hp

Patience. The G8 GXP should do the trick nicely. I don't understand the gnashing of teeth about the G8 GT. It's the perfect formula for the GT car. It should outrun the 5.7 Hemi LX cars while doing so at a palatable price. I mean really, that's more than enough for the average guy. You want balls-out performance? Pay for it and get the GXP.

Patience. The G8 GXP should do the trick nicely. I don't understand the gnashing of teeth about the G8 GT. It's the perfect formula for the GT car. It should outrun the 5.7 Hemi LX cars while doing so at a palatable price. I mean really, that's more than enough for the average guy. You want balls-out performance? Pay for it and get the GXP.

Will the GXP have 420hp or 500+hp and when will that come out??? The point is, it is already available just not here. I came close to buying a current CTS-V, because I would like to buy a powerful 4 door American sedan. I want an American car that will hang with AMG, M, RS and R; not POS hemis. However the CTS-V interior did not fly with me. Even the new CTS has wierd quirks, that I do not understand. GM is releasing it in europe with bluetooth, but bluetooth will come later in the states. Bluetooth would not be a dealbreaker for me, but why not launch it with bluetooth here as well???

I have no problem paying for it, I would just like the opportunity to.

Will the GXP have 420hp or 500+hp and when will that come out???

I would say 420-450. Again, plenty good for even the biggest mid-life speed freak needing a family sedan.

It's amazing that a 400+ HP sedan for a great price still isn't good enough. I mean, you have to remember that this is a Pontiac. You want Pontiac to do a 500+ HP sedan? Are you ready to pay 50, $60,000 for a Pontiac sedan? Because I can tell you right now, there aren't many people who would.

How much is this supercharged Vauxhall going to cost in US dollars? :think:

so the G8 doesn't use the 400hp LS2.. big deal.. 362hp is still a lot of power under the hood, plenty to be competitive in the market it is in.. the G8 also has active fuel management, which the LS2 doesn't have

only making 360 hp?

How much power do you NEED?

If you WANT more, just modify the engine. With just bolt-ons and a PCM tune, you could easily get another 70 hp without any penalty to fuel economy.

Would 430 hp then be enough for ya?

I think you guys are totally missing his point; it isn't a matter of how much HP does he want or need; what he's complaining about (and it seems like a valid complaint to me) is why does GM offer the more powerful versions elsewhere but not here?

If the car already exists (and it obvioiusly does); why doesn't the U.S. get it now?

You all seem to be saying he should just shut-up and "be happy" with whatever GM decides to offer him in the U.S.

maybe a gt, a gtp and a gxp ???
that would pretty cool, but not cost effective. I agree that the car would get pretty pricey with the supercharger, as heavy as it is, mileage would be terrible.

I think you guys are totally missing his point; it isn't a matter of how much HP does he want or need; what he's complaining about (and it seems like a valid complaint to me) is why does GM offer the more powerful versions elsewhere but not here?

If the car already exists (and it obvioiusly does); why doesn't the U.S. get it now?

You all seem to be saying he should just shut-up and "be happy" with whatever GM decides to offer him in the U.S.
Robert has a good point. My guess is they decided to go with the fuel economy on the low level V8. Expect for the GXP to make up for it ;)

That's how GM, and really most car makers are though when they release a new model. The M3 went on hiatus wit hthe new body style. The shelby wasn't out wit teh first year of the new mustang. The solstice GXP wasn't available the first year of production. The Z06 wasn't available first year. etc, etc.

It probably doesn't help that the last 'aspirational' 400hp pontiac is called a failure by so many people.

The big reason is probably because they know they will sell a boatload even without a top dog the first year. Then when you release the top dog a year later, you create new excitement for the car, only now your regular channels are filled up and ready to take orders rather than waiting for shipments like most of the US was in early 04.

I've been meaning to ask this. Why would they use the 6.0L Vortech engine? Isn't the LS2 cheaper to build, with larger production capacity? Isn't the Vortech an iron block? Unless I'm mistaken, I can seriously see no advantage to them using that engine instead of the LS2. :confused:

Patience. The G8 GXP should do the trick nicely. I don't understand the gnashing of teeth about the G8 GT. It's the perfect formula for the GT car. It should outrun the 5.7 Hemi LX cars while doing so at a palatable price. I mean really, that's more than enough for the average guy. You want balls-out performance? Pay for it and get the GXP.

works for Mustang GT, base V8 car that offers good performance and style, want more, pay more.

I've been meaning to ask this. Why would they use the 6.0L Vortech engine? Isn't the LS2 cheaper to build, with larger production capacity? Isn't the Vortech an iron block? Unless I'm mistaken, I can seriously see no advantage to them using that engine instead of the LS2. :confused:

the engine in the G8 isnt the Vortech engine.

If GM had moved quicker on the ball, perhaps the car would be here now. But there are technical issues like emissions testing, crash regulations, and insurance crap that has to happen - aside from where the cars are built to what side of the car the steering column is on (again, more time and money). Gm moved slowly and now it has to go through the paperwork. Also GMNA is known for moving slower than the rest of the company. Such is how it is I guess. All we can do is hope it gets better.

Why they give the Aussies 420hp and the Americans 360 is also easily explained. How many people in the US would rather have 60hp or a few mpg? Whats the cost difference? How is cafe effected?

I bet GM would rather have the mpg at this point - cause 360HP is a LOT for a family sedan no matter how you slice it, and more than most people are used to in any car. Also a lot of people that have the high end Audi or BMW machines that have that power dont even really use it.

the engine in the G8 isnt the Vortech engine.

Okay, then what 362hp V8 is it? And does my point not still stand?

Okay, then what 362hp V8 is it? And does my point not still stand?

its a version of the V8 in the VE Commodore that has been modified to have AFM...

they are probably using this V8 because that's what they have down under.. and they want to leave room for the GXP later to have a significant horsepower boost

Robert Nashville got it, I do not know about the rest?

If you are fine with 360hp, then why not 300hp or maybe 250hp. Of all places to see people not wanting more HP, a Camaro forum. Would you be happy with a 5th gen making 360ish hp, while the Challenger is pumping out 425+hp and a Mustang version already putting out 500hp.

360 is not enough when you can get 300 from a V6. As far as mods go when you get it. How wrong is that - I am going to risk voiding my 5y 100,000 mile warranty, so I can make my 6.0L GM engine have the same hp as a 6.0L GM engine that exists in the same car in England. Even though they were built side by side in Australia.

Yes they may bring them out in the second or third year, but they are already out in other parts of the world.

I know why they do all this stuff and that is why GM irks me.

BMW, MB, Audi, Jag, Aston Martin, Porsche and others seem to not mind offering some powerful saloons and coupes here in the States, why not GM.

Gas in Europe is more than the USA and they are very much more conerned about MPG than us (thus their diesels vs. our SUVs), but they got the better version.

Maybe I use that much power, maybe I do not. I would like the chance to make that decision.

Something else to take into consideration is the price. IIRC, the Monaro exported to the UK was significantly more than the GTO. Maybe GM's trying to justify their price point this time?

Something else to take into consideration is the price. IIRC, the Monaro exported to the UK was significantly more than the GTO. Maybe GM's trying to justify their price point this time?

That is it RIGHT there!

Jeep boy doesn't seem to understand that the Vauxhall/Opel/HSV versions of the Zeta car will cost in excess of $50k US. The HSV cars are Holden's best and they are produced in VERY small numbers. The G8 GT is a very high volume output for Holden's factory, which also supplies all of Australia and GM Arabia with a multitude of models.

Are you willing to shell out $50k for a 3800 lb Pontiac Sedan?

Didn't think so.

As for why the 361 hp V8, it is the L76 which Holden uses in the Calis V8, SS-V Commodores and its Statesman/Caprice models. The LS2 is actually a lower production engine. It is reserved for Corvette and CTS-V right now, though it will be replaced shortly. The L76 and L98 engines will also be replaced in the not to distant future. GM is moving quickly with its OHV V8s and constantly improving. Heck if you were going to be complaining about not getting a V8 you could choose the 6.2 VVT AFM V8 from the Escalade and Denalis. Or how about the LS7? Which would make the price JUMP even more dramatically!

That's how GM, and really most car makers are though when they release a new model. The M3 went on hiatus wit hthe new body style. The shelby wasn't out wit teh first year of the new mustang. The solstice GXP wasn't available the first year of production. The Z06 wasn't available first year. etc, etc.

It probably doesn't help that the last 'aspirational' 400hp pontiac is called a failure by so many people.

The big reason is probably because they know they will sell a boatload even without a top dog the first year. Then when you release the top dog a year later, you create new excitement for the car, only now your regular channels are filled up and ready to take orders rather than waiting for shipments like most of the US was in early 04.Unfortunately it seems that this post has been glossed right over. He makes a good point.

Mr. Jeep, did the SRT8 Charger come out the same year as the regular charger? What about the 3 Series? 330i first, then the 335i with the turbo, THEN the hi-po M3.

Mustang/Mustang GT first. Then convertible. THEN the GT500. Mercedes [insert model here]. THEN [insert AMG model here].

Porsche 911 Carrera. THEN 911 Turbo. PT Cruiser. THEN the turbo and convertible models.

That said, I do understand that it seems frustrating to know that the model does already exist and is being sold elsewhere. However, as others have pointed out, the market might be pretty tiny for a $40k-$50k Pontiac sedan at this point. The ~$30k G8 GT puts it right up against a Charger RT, Nissan Maxima, and so forth. 400-500 hp is getting into pretty rarified air for a non-lux nameplate.

:shrug:

We all have our opinions and they may all be right, who knows. It is just a rant on why GM irks me.

Why would any fan of General Motors not want them to try and bring their best product to the states. Maybe it works, maybe it does not; however by making excuses we will never know :confused:

Maybe the good stuff will come later, maybe it does not. It just stinks it is already out and not available here. We get to go through the stages and most of you have already ranted about the top Camaro not coming out until the 2nd year, same for the convertible. By the time the Camaro is released with its 6.0L(I am saying 6L since that is what the concept has) 400-450hp, there would already have been a supercharged 6.0L making 500hp out for 2 years and not offered. I am a natural air fan over forced air , but whatever.

Maybe it would cost $50,000 or maybe $40,000. That is GMs own fault, they will make cars a lot cheaper once they get their house in order. I really believe that.

Unfortunately it seems that this post has been glossed right over. He makes a good point.

Mr. Jeep, did the SRT8 Charger come out the same year as the regular charger? What about the 3 Series? 330i first, then the 335i with the turbo, THEN the hi-po M3.

Mustang/Mustang GT first. Then convertible. THEN the GT500. Mercedes [insert model here]. THEN [insert AMG model here].

Porsche 911 Carrera. THEN 911 Turbo. PT Cruiser. THEN the turbo and convertible models.

That said, I do understand that it seems frustrating to know that the model does already exist and is being sold elsewhere. However, as others have pointed out, the market might be pretty tiny for a $40k-$50k Pontiac sedan at this point. The ~$30k G8 GT puts it right up against a Charger RT, Nissan Maxima, and so forth. 400-500 hp is getting into pretty rarified air for a non-lux nameplate.

:shrug:

I gotta agree while I'm always for more power this car fits right in line with the competition for the price point. If anything having the HSV and Euro model available with the higher HP means GM can go get it when needed.

As for why it takes a year or so to make it to the US even for a car already being produced. Well lets just say that we have some interesting laws governing our cars here and those things take time to engineer. See FMVSS.

Will someone please tell me when I can actually go into a dealer and get a G8??? and when could I pre-order should I choose to do so???

Robert Nashville got it, I do not know about the rest?

If you are fine with 360hp, then why not 300hp or maybe 250hp. Of all places to see people not wanting more HP, a Camaro forum. Would you be happy with a 5th gen making 360ish hp, while the Challenger is pumping out 425+hp and a Mustang version already putting out 500hp.

Top of the line Camaro? No, but would be a nice option for people who dont want tons of horsepower.

360 is not enough when you can get 300 from a V6. As far as mods go when you get it. How wrong is that - I am going to risk voiding my 5y 100,000 mile warranty, so I can make my 6.0L GM engine have the same hp as a 6.0L GM engine that exists in the same car in England. Even though they were built side by side in Australia.

Ok, but well thats the choice you make. I dont know many 300hp V6 4dr sedans you know under 30k, but whatever lets take it. 360hp and some 400ftlbs of torque should be PLENTY to move you through traffic. If you dont like it, wait.

Yes they may bring them out in the second or third year, but they are already out in other parts of the world.

Thats designed to keep the buzz of the car going. Its the ability to keep the car fresh, keep bringing out new models, keep attention on the cars instead of blowing the load and walking away.

I know why they do all this stuff and that is why GM irks me.

BMW, MB, Audi, Jag, Aston Martin, Porsche and others seem to not mind offering some powerful saloons and coupes here in the States, why not GM.
Um...we are talking about PONTIAC! Find me a 300hp car that anyone of them make that is SUB 30k? How about find me a 400hp car for under 40k? These companies do offer them, and so does GM, BUT YOU MUST PAY FOR IT!! Did the M5 launch the first year? Did Jag launch R models across the board? Did the RS4 launch in its first year of the new A4?
But the big point is that you cant touch any of these cars unless you have AT LEAST 60k!!

Gas in Europe is more than the USA and they are very much more conerned about MPG than us (thus their diesels vs. our SUVs), but they got the better version.

Maybe I use that much power, maybe I do not. I would like the chance to make that decision.

Gas is cheaper in the US, which is why in Europe, 90% of the cars on the road are subcompacts, with sub 2.0 engines. Get better versions? European cars are on a different level, they mean different things then they do in America. Are there better cars in Europe? Yeah, because in America, we want lazy A to B cars and thats what we suffer with.

If you want to have the chance, then you can wait or move on, its THAT easy. You are talking to Camaro people, people that have been waiting since 2002 to buy a Camaro, and will continue to wait another 2,3,5 years till they get a chance to buy one. So dont get all upset that you cant get a 500hp car RIGHT NOW.

We all have our opinions and they may all be right, who knows. It is just a rant on why GM irks me.

Why would any fan of General Motors not want them to try and bring their best product to the states. Maybe it works, maybe it does not; however by making excuses we will never know :confused:

Its not that we dont want them to bring the best, we are a small crowd in the mass of boring America. Where the best selling vechiles are trucks and soul-less Camrys and Accords.
Would I love to have an Astra VXR in showrooms? Hell yeah!
Would we love to see some Euro only type cars in America? Sure.
This move of Holden bringing cars BACK into America after a little slip with the GTO shows that GM IS in fact bringing some of the best stuff here. And with platform sharring in the future, the ability of world chassis, this will expand the fun world wide.

Maybe the good stuff will come later, maybe it does not. It just stinks it is already out and not available here. We get to go through the stages and most of you have already ranted about the top Camaro not coming out until the 2nd year, same for the convertible. By the time the Camaro is released with its 6.0L(I am saying 6L since that is what the concept has) 400-450hp, there would already have been a supercharged 6.0L making 500hp out for 2 years and not offered. I am a natural air fan over forced air , but whatever.

There will always be a better, more powerful engine. The SC 6.0 motor going in the VXR500 has been out for a year or so, they sold them in Europe. Super GTO's. But there is a better motor coming, the LS9, which will make more then 500hp. Just cause there is an engine out there, doesnt mean that it automaticly has to go into a car.

Maybe it would cost $50,000 or maybe $40,000. That is GMs own fault, they will make cars a lot cheaper once they get their house in order. I really believe that.

Its not GM's fault, there is a certain price that goes along with power. I dont think that there should be 400hp for under 30k. I dont think there should be 500hp for under 45k. Corners are cut to make them affordable, al la GT500.
Its not a matter of making them cheaper, its the matter of making a TRUE SPORTS CAR/SEDAN!! Really, when you think about, GM does a great job of making a car offers you performance that can top cars MUCH more expensive. The CTS-V brought you last gen M5 powertrain, handling and ride for tens of thousands of dollars less. Next gen CTSV is said to have more then enough power to handle M5, E63, RS4, and the new IS-F.
Z06 brings you power and handling to match pretty much any supercar under half a million dollars.

We all have our opinions and they may all be right, who knows. It is just a rant on why GM irks me.

Why would any fan of General Motors not want them to try and bring their best product to the states. Maybe it works, maybe it does not; however by making excuses we will never know :confused:

The issues is that we are enthusiests but realists. You are being an idealist and an enthusiest. While we understand that a $50K 450 hp Pontiac sedan would be cool we also understand that it woudn't sell. That is being REAL. Should GM bring it over here just to lose money on it when instead they can bring over a lower hp version at a lower cost and MAKE money? No. If you are wishing for that then you will likely get NO support on this board. While we are performance enthusiests we don't agree that GM should burn money for no reason. Is this getting through?

the Vauxhall VXR8 is going on sale for £35,000 ish. At current rates, that's about $70,000 US. Before people moan more, the fact that you will get a 360hp version for less than half of what the Brits pay should get you thinking ...

If you are fine with 360hp, then why not 300hp or maybe 250hp.

Let's step back into the land of logic. We're talking about competitive horsepower at a very competitive price. If any GM model out there trumps its direct competition at a similar price point....I don't care if it's G8 GT-Charger R/T or Camaro-Mustang or whatever.....what more can you ask for?

the Vauxhall VXR8 is going on sale for £35,000 ish. At current rates, that's about $70,000 US.

Thank you. :rolleyes: [/thread]

If you are fine with 360hp, then why not 300hp or maybe 250hp.

360 beats the competition.. 300 and 250 do not.. it's that simple... the competition in this case are cars like the 300C, Charger RT, and Magnum RT.. full size v8 cars...

the GXP will beat the SRT-8s, i'm pretty confident in that...