I'm feeling pretty disappointed....

http://www.automochatter.com/forum/showthread.php?t=154

Starting at 2nd post....

If it's true, that would suck.

If it's true, that would suck.


Sure does.

Well I understand your concern but if that extra length translates into leg room Im ecstatic...

Well I understand your concern but if that extra length translates into leg room Im ecstatic...


Doubt it, probably all in overhang.

Im still reading the thread, its interesting...

Im not too concerned about the look because compared to 4th gens anything is a vast improvement. And as they keep saying its not like you're going to have the concept next to it in your garage.

So assuming performance is inline, as Im sure it will be. Yes it would be better if it were shorter, lighter etc.. That doesen't seem to be the case with most new cars.

If true, my desire for the car is diminishing.

If true, my desire for the car is diminishing.

Why not wait until we see the real thing before passing judgement?

Why not wait until we see the real thing before passing judgement?

:thumb:

Why not wait until we see the real thing before passing judgement?

Oh, I will. But I can tell you that my excitement for this car has now decreased. It seems now that we are at the same point size-wise as we were with the original cancelled GMX284 car. The one that everyone on the internet was calling the Chevelle.

As I look at my future finances, I can no longer say I've got a, "this $35K reserved for Camaro", column anymore.

Man, talk about a lot of hand wringing and teeth gnashing....and no facts to back them up.....just speculation and rumor....sounds like the weight conversations all over again.

How many more reasons do some need to invent to rationalize walking away from this car?

If 4 inches gets me a useable trunk instead of a mail slot, then I won't complain....especially on the convertible models....or a rear seat that adult people with legs can use.

Don't get me wrong, I want a car closer to a sports car than a musclecar, but 4 seaters will never replace a Corvette.

I trust the engineers to give me the lightest, smallest Camaro they can....within reason....I don't believe they are magicians though....

BTW, do the people here REALLY need yet another message forum to hold these same conversations in?

Man, talk about a lot of hand wringing and teeth gnashing....and no facts to back them up.....just speculation and rumor....sounds like the weight conversations all over again.

How many more reasons do some need to invent to rationalize walking away from this car?

If 4 inches gets me a useable trunk instead of a mail slot, then I won't complain....especially on the convertible models....or a rear seat that adult people with legs can use.

Don't get me wrong, I want a car closer to a sports car than a musclecar, but 4 seaters will never replace a Corvette.

I trust the engineers to give me the lightest, smallest Camaro they can....within reason....I don't believe they are magicians though....

I'll tell you Doug, I'm not necessarilly opposed to having more utility in the Camaro. But in the end, I want a Camaro - not a Chevy GTO, not a Chevelle - a Camaro. If I need abit more trunk room or rear seat legroom, I'v got a sedan and an SUV I can use.

I ain't loosing sleep over a Camaro that's just a few inches longer than the '69 in my garage....

I'll tell you Doug, I'm not necessarilly opposed to having more utility in the Camaro. But in the end, I want a Camaro - not a Chevy GTO, not a Chevelle - a Camaro. If I need abit more trunk room or rear seat legroom, I'v got a sedan and an SUV I can use.

Charlie,

Seriously, do what I did, buy a used C5....I LOVE mine.

Oh, I will. But I can tell you that my excitement for this car has now decreased. It seems now that we are at the same point size-wise as we were with the original cancelled GMX284 car. The one that everyone on the internet was calling the Chevelle.

As I look at my future finances, I can no longer say I've got a, "this $35K reserved for Camaro", column anymore.

I do remember a lot of speculation about a Chevelle being built on the Zeta platform but none that seriously used the GMX284 as that. Yes there was some but I remember more credible rumors about that being Camaro.

As for myself, I am not 100% positive I will buy a Camaro. I will be taking a good look at the El Camino when it returns. I already have a Camaro with very low miles (94 with 42K) and we just ordered a Dodge Nitro however, Camaro is at the top of my list...even if it is 190".

Charlie,

Seriously, do what I did, buy a used C5....I LOVE mine.

Yeah, I'm seriously considering using the money I would have spent on the 5th gen on a used Z06. That, or a project car.

Just as long as the number on the Camaro doesn't become 187.

As in murder, death, kill.

BTW, do the people here REALLY need yet another message forum to hold these same conversations in?

That site is a joint effort between Charlie and me. Its just something we have both wanted to do.

I think the answer to that question is going to be different for each individual. Personally I think there is room for another site that is well executed. If not, then the marketplace will prove me wrong.

Yeah, I'm seriously considering using the money I would have spent on the 5th gen on a used Z06. That, or a project car.

Ding ding. Ding ding. Ding ding.

A lightweight, powerful car that can be had with low miles for a very reasonably price .

As for the 2009 (or 10) Camaro.....will wait and see.

Bob

This is just one more strike against the 5th Gen as far as my future plans go. I mean the car isn't going to have any kind of removable roof option that isn't a full-blown vert....it will probably weigh 3700#s...or more....and if it's almost as big as my 4th Gen? I dunno....Charlie is right, I understand the reasons behind it but everything I am hearing makes the car less and less appealing. :(

I just read thread fromt he referenced link and now all of the replies on here about it, and all I can say is I am amazed at how volitle some people's decision are about the 5th gen! I mean seriously, how can 4" be the difference between, as one person put it, having $35K reserved for Camaro to "I can no longer say I've got a, "this $35K reserved for Camaro", column anymore."

I mean, will 4" really make or break the performance and handling of this car? It is not going to be the same thing as tacking on 4" to your 4th gen. This car is being built on a brand new architecture. Absolutely no one on here has driven it, or knows how it is going to handle, but yet some of us are quick enough to say, Whoa, "186" is ok, but if they go with 190" I am going to have to reconsider this whole thing..."

This is just one more strike against the 5th Gen as far as my future plans go. I mean the car isn't going to have any kind of removable roof option that isn't a full-blown vert....it will probably weigh 3700#s...or more....and if it's almost as big as my 4th Gen? I dunno....Charlie is right, I understand the reasons behind it but everything I am hearing makes the car less and less appealing. :(

Almost as big as a 4th gen??? Are you SERIOUS??? :confused: Take a look at a 4th gen in parking lot - it's a seriously smaller car next to almost anything! My wife's 350z is smaller and so is a 'vette - maybe an Aveo and Cobalt....but a 4th gen is NOT a big car!!!! I can park my car next to a rustang, and y'know what, the rustang is bigger!!!!

And I'm sorry but if a weight number THAT DOESN'T EXIST YET, and dimensions THAT DON'T EXIST YET is enough to make the car's appeal drop for you then I think you're on the wrong board and you need to get a life! My 4th gen is the most amazing car I've ever owned - it's been an ambulance, school bus, grocery getter (for a family of 4), and snow plow - it's handled every task i've thrown at it and handled them all well. Long term, it's that faithfulness in addition to performance that has sold me so many times on the car. And long term it's that faithfulness that will make sure Camaro never dies again.

Do you know what two lines I've heard most in the 8 years I've had my car? "What a cool car" and "It's not practical".....well, practicality is in the eye of the beholder and if the new Camaro has more practicality and can keep people from judging the car on that outdated stereotype then it's a good thing for the brand's long term health. If that isn't enough for you and you're so uninterested in the car without any data whatsoever, then it's not the car for you - move along.

I give props to Casull and Shellhead. They read my mind. I cant beleive how fickle people are. I remember when the 5th generation first came out, like everyone was praising it and saying that they were ready to buy it. How can everyone lose faith so quickly? Is it because we havent got anything new for a few months? No matter the weight and no matter the size, I WILL buy this car. This car is the Camaro, and GM will make it perform if it has to strap rockets to the fenders. Even so, Im not worried about the weight because we havent seen the official numbers yet and I am confident that GMs performance guys know what they are doing.
I said it before, and Ill say it again, the Camaro is something that goes beyond performance. Yeah, a guy had the bright idea of dropping a gigantic V8 into a Focus and it performed greatly...probably better than a lot of cars out on the road. Is that what makes a car? You can make literally ANY car go fast and perform if youve got the means. Is that what makes a car? Im buying the Camaro because its a Camaro. To tell you the truth, Im probably not going to go and drag race it, or take advantage of its performance capabilities. "If your going to buy a car and not go fast, then why dont you buy a simple car like a Malibu or a Fusion?" some ask me, and they dont understand. A Cobalt SS is fast, and it is still makes me shrug and keep moving. The Camaro is a work of art. It is a beautiful song, a glorious shape, and poetry whenever its name is mentioned. A peice of art is judged not by how big, small, bright, dark, realistic, or abstract it is (if you are catching my metaphor). Its judged by how much heart it has. The Camaro has an essence that can barely be described in words.
Yes, I know I write to much to make a simple point, but I cant believe that the Camaro's supposed fans are now looking for alternatives as a result of a little weight or size increase. As long as the car embodies what the Camaro is supposed to stand for then I am fine. And besides that, the Camaro will perform great anyway...I just think everyone is blowing this little bit of info way out of porportion.

Casull: I said that. If I don't like what a see, it's my money to spend or not spend.


Shellhead: You are DEAD WRONG. Your 4th gen IS a big car. Bigger than most sedans. Longer than most mid-sized SUV's. Longer than a Hummer H1. A foot longer than an SN95 Mustang. Half a foot longer than the current Mustang.


Jamac332: I respect your opinion bro. But it sounds like you'd gladly take a rebadged Trailblazer if it came with Camaro emblems.

The 5th gen will be 6 inches shorter then the 4th gen from what Im reading, or just as big as a GTO, maybe a little lower, and wider. That might be a little bigger then the concept, but its a CONCEPT for a reason. Will that 4 inches be all in the rear?

Reading what Lutz is talking about Zeta having 2 rear subframes, 2 mid sections, and 2 front subframes. He said Camaro would have the short rear, short mid, and long front, where this future Caddy will be long rear, long middle, long front.

Casull: I said that. If I don't like what a see, it's my money to spend or not spend.



And I don't think I ever told you how to spend that money. I was mearly questioning the logic of the comment as well as everyone else who is all of the sudden jumping ship over 4". It just perplexes me how anyone can pass judgment on this car before they have had the chance to feel how it drives... that was my point.

And I don't think I ever told you how to spend that money. I was mearly questioning the logic of the comment as well as everyone else who is all of the sudden jumping ship over 4". It just perplexes me how anyone can pass judgment on this car before they have had the chance to feel how it drives... that was my point.

Yeah, I know. But you called me out. No sweat.

I think you're on the wrong board and you need to get a life!

Thanks for the advice chief! :rolleyes:

I'm sure the next Camaro will be a success even with these (in my eyes) imperfections. I'm just becoming more and more convinced that this might not be the car for me. I dunno. Of course I will wait and see what the final product looks like but.....

No offense, but if you're ready to buy whatever Camaro Chevrolet gives us, that's cool man. I don't think my opinion needs to be slammed just because I'd like to see the concept's tidier dimensions in production, for starters. If this 4" rumor is true, they're adding the 4" in easily the most noticable (i.e. worst) spot....overhang.

Yeah, I know. But you called me out. No sweat.

Sorry, didn't mean to single you out per-se, that comment was just the one that stuck in my mind for some reason......

Wow hostility...

I see both sides here, on the one side we don't want the concept dimensions being obliterated or it becoming a RWD Monte Carlo...

Then again, pretty much anything is an improvement over 4th gen which has two feet of over hangs on both sides , If nothing else, the wheels will be pushed to the edges to avoid the airplane look 4th gen has..

Even if a few items aren't what we want, and there will assuredly be items we would all change what we will get will be arguably the best Camaro ever. I dont know if its reasonable to be upset its bigger when its going to outperform competitors twice the cost, which coincidentally, have gotten bigger as well.

If the legend of "Camaro" is so strong in some of our minds that we will reject the Camaro we crusaded for years about... Then maybe we do need to take some time off from the board...

EDIT: Bob Lutz comments on this matter:
http://www.automochatter.com/forum/showthread.php?t=229

Hope you don't mind JasonD.

Otherwise just delete.

Casull: I said that. If I don't like what a see, it's my money to spend or not spend.


Shellhead: You are DEAD WRONG. Your 4th gen IS a big car. Bigger than most sedans. Longer than most mid-sized SUV's. Longer than a Hummer H1. A foot longer than an SN95 Mustang. Half a foot longer than the current Mustang.


Jamac332: I respect your opinion bro. But it sounds like you'd gladly take a rebadged Trailblazer if it came with Camaro emblems.

Not so. Maybe I didnt explain myself thourghly enough in my last post. Rebaged Trailblazer? Jeez, dont exagerate or anything. Im saying that people are splitting hairs over a couple of inches. The Camaro Concept is exactly what I always wanted the Camaro to be. GM says the production version will be almost identical to the Concept. That is what Im excited about, and I dont care if its considered "big" whatever the hell that is. I just dont know how people can all of a sudden get so antsy with their money now that they find that the production version may not be exactly like the concept. We are getting to the point where we are nitpicking. We are splitting hairs...the emblem isnt the whole of the car for me. It has classic Camaro lines, has two doors, rear wheel drive, V8, long hood and short rear deck. Does that explain my point well enough for you not to throw the Trailblazer thing at me again? What Im saying is they nailed it, that they will nail the production version too regardless of an inch or two. An inch or two is not worth giving up my plans to buy the car by a long shot.

Wow hostility...

I see both sides here, on the one side we don't want the concept dimensions being obliterated or it becoming a RWD Monte Carlo...

Then again, pretty much anything is an improvement over 4th gen which has two feet of over hangs on both sides , If nothing else, the wheels will be pushed to the edges to avoid the airplane look 4th gen has..

Even if a few items aren't what we want, and there will assuredly be items we would all change what we will get will be arguably the best Camaro ever. I dont know if its reasonable to be upset its bigger when its going to outperform competitors twice the cost, which coincidentally, have gotten bigger as well.

If the legend of "Camaro" is so strong in some of our minds that we will reject the Camaro we crusaded for years about... Then maybe we do need to take some time off from the board...

Well said

If the legend of "Camaro" is so strong in some of our minds that we will reject the Camaro we crusaded for years about... Then maybe we do need to take some time off from the board...

I have to agree.

Officially a non issue....carry on......

http://web.camaross.com/forums/showthread.php?t=504816

Officially a non issue....carry on......

http://web.camaross.com/forums/showthread.php?t=504816

Yeah, because 4" on a production car we haven't even seen yet was an issue to begin with? :rolleyes: All sarcasm aside, I'm glad this got put to bed. :)

Geee....don't criticize the 5th Gen (in concept form or otherwise)....you'll upset the kiddies. And then someone in high places might not talk to you again.

At what point does it get too big? Or too tall? Or too heavy? Or too small?

1 inch? 4 inches? 10 inches? 10 lbs? 100 lbs? 500 lbs?

Isn't that up to each individual? If someone thinks 2 inches or 50 lbs is too much/too little, are they wrong? Is that reason enough for them to "take a break" from here?

Some of ya'll would buy a rebadged Yugo if Scott put Camaro badges on it and said it was the best thing ever.

/rant.

Bob

Bob,

Not all of us have some mystical factory lightweight, 180", 4 seater in mind....and while I'd love one, it's not what the Camaro has ever been or will be in today's market.

Personally, I've met some of the Camaro design/engineering team and I truly feel like there has never been a car that so many Camaro enthusiasts and actual owners are working on it....and therefore have the same wants and desires that the rest of us do.......all the while working under the constraints of reality.

We've been told time and again that the production version will be virtually indistinguishable from the concept.....with very minor dimensional changes at best.

Sometimes I feel like Charlie and Guy are being fed old or (purposefully??) incorrect information....maybe to just keep then guessing.... ;)

Geee... I wouldn't buy a rebadged Yugo if it said "Camaro" on it, nor will I buy anything that says "Camaro" on it if it doesen't fit my own individual wants, which are obviously just as subjective as yours or anyone else's.

However, I find it a bit ridiculous that some people are/were ready to throw in the towel becasue a production car isn't going to be identical to a concept... I mean would we have been happier if they made the concept smaller and with more absurd dimensions and then made the production current concept size? I doubt it...

Additionally, these are some of the same people who ranted, and rightfully so, that enthusiast killed the f-car; people who criticized those who wanted an "engine in a box". These same people are ready to kill it all over again because what will assuredly be a world class modern car, is actually the size of... a modern car.

The same people who discussed the imposibility as well as their personal disdain for the idea of Camaro returning as a niche model, but are now trying to impose limits on it more reminiscent of a miata then any modern coupe or "pony car" which would effectively make it nothing more than a boutique model, that would be getting the axe all over again.

So yes I find that criticism a bit unreasonable...

I have no doubt when we learn the curb weight of the production car we'll have this whole conversation all over again. I think anybody that takes a single arbitrary measurement and judges the whole car with that one criteron is being short sighted.

Lets wait until we can take in the car as a whole before we judge it a failure or a success.

Where do people get the idea that guys like Charlie want a "Miata" sized Camaro? :confused:

The 4th Gen was a BIG car, I have one and there's no denying it. So when the rumor was that the new car would be within a couple of inches of length that just made no sense to me....

You look at the last generation Mustang....I thought it was a great size for a "Pony Car"....the new Mustang looks like a virtual whale next to the SN95, and it "only added a few inches". That is what concerned me. A "few extra inches" can dramatically change a car's look.

Sometimes I feel like Charlie and Guy are being fed old or (purposefully??) incorrect information....maybe to just keep then guessing.... ;)

Who knows Doug, maybe one day I'll write a book on all this. ;)

Where do people get the idea that guys like Charlie want a "Miata" sized Camaro? :confused:

The 4th Gen was a BIG car, I have one and there's no denying it. So when the rumor was that the new car would be within a couple of inches of length that just made no sense to me....

You look at the last generation Mustang....I thought it was a great size for a "Pony Car"....the new Mustang looks like a virtual whale next to the SN95, and it "only added a few inches". That is what concerned me. A "few extra inches" can dramatically change a car's look.

IMO the styling of the new Mustang is what makes it appear so much larger. Not necessarily overall size.

The 4th Gens were only marginally larger than a 3rd. But I never hear complaints about the size of the 3rd Gens.

1991 Length 192.6
2001 Length 193.5 (less than an inch)

1991 Width 72.4
2001 Width 74.1 (less than 2 inches)

1991 Height 50.4
2001 Height 51.2 (less than an inch)

It was the styling that made them appear larger then they really are.

Also, taste, accounts for opinion of course. 98-02 were, imo, the best looking Camaro's followed closely by 91-92. I got FAR more compliments on my '02 when I had it than I got negative comments. It's been almost 2 years and people STILL tell me how good looking that car was, and they can't believe I traded it in.

Note- I got the above dimensions offline, so if they are incorrect I apologize.

FWIW, I wasn't talking about Charlie specifically, which is why I specifically avoided mentioning him specifically. But we've had other threads here and on other boards I lurk on with even more unrealistic expectations.

Perhaps Z4 would have been a bit more inline with 3200 number Ive heard thrown out...

Some of us sure have gotten pissy around here lately.

You're right, things have really gone to pot.

Lol... I think people are just running out of things to talk about and speculate on. The severe lack of information concerning this car is starting to go to peoples' brains!

I don't think GM has to worry about keeping the buzz alive for the next two years as much as they have to worry about all of the Camaro enthusiests killing one another!

We are all just getting impatient and frusterated becasue we want this car yesterday!

Lol... I think people are just running out of things to talk about and speculate on. The severe lack of information concerning this car is starting to go to peoples' brains!

I don't think GM has to worry about keeping the buzz alive for the next two years as much as they have to worry about all of the Camaro enthusiests killing one another!

We are all just getting impatient and frusterated becasue we want this car yesterday!

For those that have been around here for a few years, this is the "annual" lull in news. We all get testy when GM gets quiet.

Almost as big as a 4th gen??? Are you SERIOUS??? :confused: Take a look at a 4th gen in parking lot - it's a seriously smaller car next to almost anything! My wife's 350z is smaller and so is a 'vette - maybe an Aveo and Cobalt....but a 4th gen is NOT a big car!!!! I can park my car next to a rustang, and y'know what, the rustang is bigger!!!!
.

Wrong about the Z
Wrong about the Vette
Wrong aboute the Mustang.

You are truly an idiot. Get your facts straight before you run your mouth.

The severe lack of information concerning this car is starting to go to peoples' brains!

We are all just getting impatient and frusterated becasue we want this car yesterday!

TRUTH.COM

I think this entire conversation was absurd. Where was there ever mention of 4"? Wasn't that only postulated in someone's post, or did I miss the part where Ed said it would?

What I find more bizarre, is that the original poster made this post due to a concern that HE created on another forum?!?!

That, to me, is like painting my house purple..then telling other people that I'm really concerned about having a purple house. WTF is going on around here!

I think this entire conversation was absurd. Where was there ever mention of 4"? Wasn't that only postulated in someone's post, or did I miss the part where Ed said it would?

What I find more bizarre, is that the original poster made this post due to a concern that HE created on another forum?!?!

That, to me, is like painting my house purple..then telling other people that I'm really concerned about having a purple house. WTF is going on around here!

I think no one called BS because Charlie is pretty much "in the know".

According to Lutz, it isn't...so maybe we need better information before going off the proverbial 'deep-end'.

According to Lutz, it isn't...so maybe we need better information before going off the proverbial 'deep-end'.

The reason we went off the "deep end", is because Guy and myself both found ourselves with specific info that was identical. I only linked to that one thread, but the conversation spread to afew others.

I see, well, I guess this is the price we all pay when some have info, expound on their concerns, but don't share specifics. :)

The car is very very close to the concept. Im not going into any other details past what I know from a good source, and im not just bs'ing anyone. The concept has been placed next to the production version and simply put when shown to a group of GM employees not on the design team, these employees had a very difficult time trying to figure out which was which, besides of the obvious door handles and mirrors. I will be buying it no matter what. The fact is it is a 2 plus 2 MUSCLE car or is it a Pony car? NOT A SPORTS CAR. When it comes out it'll be perfect size wise. Muscle cars were actually large in size in the sixties/early seventies for the most part. Chevelle, Road runner, Nova etc, Charger etc... so i really dont understand why the new generation of muscle cars as most people are calling them -Mustang/Challenger and Camaro have to conform to sports car status size wise? If you want a light, nimble twisty conquering car get a 350Z or better yet a Corvette.

If you want a light, nimble twisty conquering car get a 350Z or better yet a Corvette.

Where does one go if he wants a middleweight, nimble, twisty-conquering car with a hot V8, 2 doors and 4 seats? :think:

The fact is it is a 2 plus 2 MUSCLE car or is it a Pony car? NOT A SPORTS CAR..

umm, it IS a sports car! thats what a Pony car is... Camaro's and Mustangs and Challenger were not large in size at all. They were considered compact for the day. It was called HUGGER orange for a reason, and likewise with Challenger's GRABBER orange and GRABBER yellow... Thank you.

Where does one go if he wants a middleweight, nimble, twisty-conquering car with a hot V8, 2 doors and 4 seats? :think:

hopefully here... other wise it will be a huge disapointment. Im not worried

When it comes out it'll be perfect size wise.

What is "perfect"? Are we using your definition, my definition, or someone else's definition?

See comment about Yugo and Camaro badge.

Bob

Where does one go if he wants a middleweight, nimble, twisty-conquering car with a hot V8, 2 doors and 4 seats? :think:

Mustang GT...just kidding. The Mustang and Camaro are are great handling cars for the most part, my point is the majority of pony cars are weekend drag cars, daily drivers and such. Yes there are quite a few people auto x'ing with the stang and maros im sure and road course racing also.

umm, it IS a sports car! thats what a Pony car is... Camaro's and Mustangs and Challenger were not large in size at all. They were considered compact for the day. It was called HUGGER orange for a reason, and likewise with Challenger's GRABBER orange and GRABBER yellow... Thank you.



hopefully here... other wise it will be a huge disapointment. Im not worried


Uh no it is NOT a sports car. A sports car= 2 door, front engine, rwd with 2 seats. A pony car is a 2+2
I never said Camaros nor Mustangs were large in size, but your wrong the 71-73 stangs were HUGE. There were/are some great handling Camaros, Stangs I agree with you especially in the Transam series in the 60s. My point like I stated to another person is the Camaro, and Mustang are good all around handling cars...don't compare a Camaro to a 350z in handling. 350Z like the Corvette are purpose built to HANDLE, like the Camaro and Mustang are purpose built to HAUL ASS in a straight line. Now the new Camaro might be able to crush the Z in the turns I don't know. My guess is it will handle great but its not a Sports car and thats a FACT.

What is "perfect"? Are we using your definition, my definition, or someone else's definition?

See comment about Yugo and Camaro badge.

Bob


Perfect= SN95 Mustang. In between a SN95-4th gen Camaro would be my Definition of perfect for the 5th Gen Camaro.

I guess theres really no "perfect" size as peoples opinions about size vary tremendously, but in MY opionion SN95 size is perfect

Where does one go if he wants a middleweight, nimble, twisty-conquering car with a hot V8, 2 doors and 4 seats? :think:

The next BMW M3. :thumb:

The next BMW M3. :thumb:

Hehe....preferrably in a car not priced in the stratosphere.

I like how some people are always looking to the Camaros of the 70's as comparisons for the 5th gen or yet, how the 5th gen should be built.

Just because the early Camaros were practically boat anchors in size and weight does not mean the 5th gen should be as well. What worked back then worked becasue it was a different era with less sophisticated technology.

You say "If you want a light, nimble twisty conquering car get a 350Z or better yet a Corvette." Why is that, becasue Camaros are not supposed to be that way? Are they forever bound by the early Camaros specifications... Early Camaros did not have the imports to compete with that we have today.

How about this... if you want a heavy, awkwardly driving boat anchor buy a 2nd gen. but give us the 5th gen we all want... not one that reminds us of what it is like to drive a car from the 70's

Just because the early Camaros were practically boat anchors in size and weight does not mean the 5th gen should be as well. What worked back then worked becasue it was a different era with less sophisticated technology. Where on earth did you get that from? :rolleyes:

Uh no it is NOT a sports car. A sports car= 2 door, front engine, rwd with 2 seats. A pony car is a 2+2
I never said Camaros nor Mustangs were large in size, but your wrong the 71-73 stangs were HUGE. There were/are some great handling Camaros, Stangs I agree with you especially in the Transam series in the 60s. My point like I stated to another person is the Camaro, and Mustang are good all around handling cars...don't compare a Camaro to a 350z in handling. 350Z like the Corvette are purpose built to HANDLE, like the Camaro and Mustang are purpose built to HAUL ASS in a straight line. Now the new Camaro might be able to crush the Z in the turns I don't know. My guess is it will handle great but its not a Sports car and thats a FACT.

Well you just clasified the M3, IS350 and G35 as a pony cars by that definition. The car was not purpose built for a straight line nor was it ever. The Z28 was purpose built for road racing not the drag strip from day one. Maybe you should check your "facts"

I never said Camaros nor Mustangs were large in size, but your wrong the 71-73 stangs were HUGE.The fact is it is a 2 plus 2 MUSCLE car or is it a Pony car? NOT A SPORTS CAR. When it comes out it'll be perfect size wise. Muscle cars were actually large in size in the sixties/early seventies for the most part.

anyone thats getting down, once its out, trust me. your going to ogggle over it. and wonder how you ever doubted yourself. keep faith!

anyone thats getting down, once its out, trust me. your going to ogggle over it. and wonder how you ever doubted yourself. keep faith!

You said it. We dont know exactly what its gonna be like, but why would anyone doubt, especially after GMs recent devotion to getting things back on track, that they would do anything that would screw up this car? GM knows what they are doing, I can confide in that after seeing such monstrousities as the C6, Caddy V-series, and GTO. Speaking of the GTO, regardless of sales and styling (one as a result of the other probably), wasnt the newer GTO an incredible performer? Ive read tons of critics' articles on it, thinking that they were going to bash it, and most if not all of them said that it was actually a really great car if your sitting in the drivers seat. Handling and power were friggin awesome. Now, Im not saying that Camaro is the same size as the GTO, but arent they building the Camaro with a simular goal and performance philosophy in mind? Im sure someone on this board will ask me who in GM "officially" said that. Im not saying that GM said that. Im saying that with the Camaro being a simular sort of car, being relatively more up to date and most likely getting a better engine and at least a suspension that is on par with the Goat's, and as far as we know probably not being a very different bracket of size or weight, wouldnt the Camaro perform at least simularly? Especially when the Camaro is a more important car to GM and enthusiasts than the GTO, or at least I think it is. Am I over-confident to have faith when GM is doing so great with performance cars lately?

Bob,

Not all of us have some mystical factory lightweight, 180", 4 seater in mind....and while I'd love one, it's not what the Camaro has ever been or will be in today's market.

Personally, I've met some of the Camaro design/engineering team and I truly feel like there has never been a car that so many Camaro enthusiasts and actual owners are working on it....and therefore have the same wants and desires that the rest of us do.......all the while working under the constraints of reality.

We've been told time and again that the production version will be virtually indistinguishable from the concept.....with very minor dimensional changes at best.

Sometimes I feel like Charlie and Guy are being fed old or (purposefully??) incorrect information....maybe to just keep then guessing.... ;)


Maybe. But regardless if the car's identical in dimensions or marginally bigger or smaller, I'm not going to loose sleep over 4", and I perfectly willing to accept a 3700-3800 pound supercharged Camaro, as long as it's tops in performance and handling. Giving that 5 mph bumpers add about 7" to a cars length and that IRS typically adds up to 150 pounds, the 5th gen Camaro will essentially be the shortest Camaro ever and will still essentially be a lightweight (just take a look at the weight of other IRS cars near it's size).

I've always been of the opinion that people who are picky will always find something critical of anything... the old "perfectionists are too busy finding something wrong they never enjoy things" idea from psych class.

Don't get me wrong, if the Camaro comes out weighing as much as a loaded SRT8 Charger or is as long as a Monte Carlo, then I'll have an issue with it along with others.

But the Camaro isn't a RWD Cobalt either. The numbers differences we're talking about is chump change. But most important of all, let's wait and see what comes out.

There might be a person or 2 who 4" or 150 pounds is enough to make them walk away. But if your girlfriend suddenly walked away from you just because one day she woke up & felt your nose was too big, you'd have very little question that she was looking for a reason to walk anyway.

Same here.

In this instance, there's going to be more than enough other gals to make up for the one that walked, methinks. :)

I ain't loosing sleep over a Camaro that's just a few inches longer than the '69 in my garage....

those were the perfect size.

Maybe. But regardless if the car's identical in dimensions or marginally bigger or smaller, I'm not going to loose sleep over 4", and I perfectly willing to accept a 3700-3800 pound supercharged Camaro, as long as it's tops in performance and handling. Giving that 5 mph bumpers add about 7" to a cars length and that IRS typically adds up to 150 pounds, the 5th gen Camaro will essentially be the shortest Camaro ever and will still essentially be a lightweight (just take a look at the weight of other IRS cars near it's size).

I've always been of the opinion that people who are picky will always find something critical of anything... the old "perfectionists are too busy finding something wrong they never enjoy things" idea from psych class.

Don't get me wrong, if the Camaro comes out weighing as much as a loaded SRT8 Charger or is as long as a Monte Carlo, then I'll have an issue with it along with others.

But the Camaro isn't a RWD Cobalt either. The numbers differences we're talking about is chump change. But most important of all, let's wait and see what comes out.

There might be a person or 2 who 4" or 150 pounds is enough to make them walk away. But if your girlfriend suddenly walked away from you just because one day she woke up & felt your nose was too big, you'd have very little question that she was looking for a reason to walk anyway.

Same here.

In this instance, there's going to be more than enough other gals to make up for the one that walked, methinks. :)

I totally agree with you!! If the car is a class-leading world-beater then squabbling about dimensions will be pointless.

I totally agree with you!! If the car is a class-leading world-beater then squabbling about dimensions will be pointless.


Well, it ALL matters. To me anyway. To achieve something good, squabbling over details is not only NOT pointless, it is crucial.

Dimensions? Who cares? Weight? Who cares. Mecahanicals? Who cares.
If you don't care about everything, what you have is mediocrity.

Lots of people claim that they don't care about this or that....and in fact, maybe they don't. But are they the ones who are actually planning on buying this car...brand spanking new? And maybe, shouldn't we try to appeal to more people than the ones who would still buy a 4th gen if they were still made?

Well you just clasified the M3, IS350 and G35 as a pony cars by that definition. The car was not purpose built for a straight line nor was it ever. The Z28 was purpose built for road racing not the drag strip from day one. Maybe you should check your "facts"

Pony cars also need to cheap... Anyway this debate is even more pointless then the main one as no one outside of enthusiast uses those words regularly and even half of them get it wrong.

Well, it ALL matters. To me anyway. To achieve something good, squabbling over details is not only NOT pointless, it is crucial.

That is true, at least if you're the person pushing the buttons.

Dimensions? Who cares? Weight? Who cares. Mecahanicals? Who cares.
If you don't care about everything, what you have is mediocrity.

Lots of people claim that they don't care about this or that....and in fact, maybe they don't. But are they the ones who are actually planning on buying this car...brand spanking new? And maybe, shouldn't wev try to appeal to more people than the ones who would still buy a 4th gen if they were still made?

I think they're trying to appeal to people who couldn't tell you how long a 4th gen was if their life depended on it. Id say thats the safer bet too...

Guy and Charlie both bring up good points. If you worry about every single detail, you wont enjoy the car for what it is. But, in the same aspect, if SOMEONE doesnt worry about the details at an engineering and design level, then you are gunna have upset people. Are 4 inches going to push me away from Camaro if the car handles like a dream, is powerful and is my every wish come true? No. But I wouldnt settle for a 4th gen type dimensions either. This car will be my daily driver, so I will have to live with it. While some people will have it for blasts down the highway or track on weekends when the weather is nice, I will be big on many things outiside of its performance.

I belive that GM has put together the best team for Camaro, and it has some of the best support any car that has came through the halls of GM outside of Corvette. For a car that was tossed to the wayside, there sure seems to be a lot of support for this car to be a multi-dimentional, transending vehicle that will take a lot of people's breaths away. I dont think that we will see this kind of support for any other vehicle. I really cant wait to get my hands on one. If they keep to there promises, and it looks like the concept, it will seriously be one hell of a hit for Chevy and GM.

Pony cars also need to cheap... Anyway this debate is even more pointless then the main one as no one outside of enthusiast uses those words regularly and even half of them get it wrong.


the words are irrelevant. The point was supposed to be the car needs to handle.

Well, it ALL matters. To me anyway. To achieve something good, squabbling over details is not only NOT pointless, it is crucial.

Dimensions? Who cares? Weight? Who cares. Mecahanicals? Who cares.
If you don't care about everything, what you have is mediocrity.

To me this comment makes z-e-r-o sense. Some things are just going to be more important than others and the car will ultimately come down to trading off one thing for another. You can't approach it and say it's all critical because it's not *all* critical. What's going to make the car great is focusing on the end-product and making intelligent trade offs.

I work in the auto industry and I can tell you there are far too many poor trade-offs that are made on vehicle programs. The kind of things where you scratch your head and wonder how they lost sight of what they were trying to do. It happens and it kills greatness. But look at anyone who's been successful in *any* endeavor - they may control every detail, but they keep them all in their proper place and keep all the details moving relentlessly toward their goals. They know putting too much energy into the wrong details is a recipe for failure.

To me this comment makes z-e-r-o sense. Some things are just going to be more important than others and the car will ultimately come down to trading off one thing for another. You can't approach it and say it's all critical because it's not *all* critical. What's going to make the car great is focusing on the end-product and making intelligent trade offs.

I work in the auto industry and I can tell you there are far too many poor trade-offs that are made on vehicle programs. The kind of things where you scratch your head and wonder how they lost sight of what they were trying to do. It happens and it kills greatness. But look at anyone who's been successful in *any* endeavor - they may control every detail, but they keep them all in their proper place and keep all the details moving relentlessly toward their goals. They know putting too much energy into the wrong details is a recipe for failure.


Of course there are trade offs. But at some point, you need some firmed up parameters or you will end up with an amorphous, unfocused sack of poo.

In this particular context we're talking about size. This is a ponycar right? The right size is an essential and critical ingredient. Get that part wrong - and IMO, the rest is virtually meaningless.

True, putting too much energy into wrong details IS a recipe for disaster. But so is not putting any energy into any details.

Not to call Guy out, but I think he posted that he'd only be concerned if the Camaro were the size of the Monte Carlo and weighed 4,200 lbs. WTF!?!!!!?!!?!!:shrug:

Certainly, that car stopped being a Camaro WAAAAY before it reached the level of a 2+ ton, full sized coupe.

Which brings me to this question. For all of those generally unconcerned about the Camaro's size and weight - and there appear to be afew of you here - do you really care if you get a Camaro, or are you just looking for some random, generic RWD coupe?

Which brings me to this question. For all of those generally unconcerned about the Camaro's size and weight - and there appear to be afew of you here - do you really care if you get a Camaro, or are you just looking for some random, generic RWD coupe?
If I didn't care on whether or not it was a Camaro, I'd probably be driving a Mustang GT500 right now. The fact is I do. However, I also think some people are blowing this size and weight thing out of proportion. If the guys that have seen the prototype say its hard to tell the difference between it and the concept, then we should be able to put it on faith that they will do the right thing. Faith. Remember Scott get telling us to "keep the faith"? I think some of us have lost faith and don't believe they'll be able to execute. Personally, I never lost faith. The concept was even better than I had expected. I expect nothing less than perfection with the actually production model. Which means I also expect a topdog Camaro called Z28 with Z06-like execution and performance, at a "Camaro-level", of course. I really don't expect a "two-ton" Camaro. Nor do I expect it to be the length of an SUV. However, I do expect it to be a Camaro, which means it also won't have BMW 3-series proportions either. :D

Not being concerned does not imply we dont care.

I'm not concerned because everything we've seen and everything we've heard indicates GM will get this right.

I'm not concerned because I know GM has the right people on this project. From Tom Peter's design team, to Doug Houlian's RWD archtecture team, to Cheryl Pilcher and others at corporate. These folks are passionate about what they do. We are in good hands.

.... besides.... if they were screwing it royally... we'd know by now. We'd be visiting Settlemire in a padded hospital room.

:D

It will be interesting if the new Camaro comes out and weighs within ~100 lbs of what the GT500 weighs.

Bet a lot of folks forget all about the bad things they had to say about the GT500's weight, as it will all of a sudden not really matter what the new Camaro weighs....door handles and mirrors will be much more important.

I tell ya...so long as it says "Camaro" on the side of it, has 2 doors, and is RWD (optional, perhaps) that will be enough for a great many people here.

To each their own, of course.
Bob

Not being concerned does not imply we dont care.

I'm not concerned because everything we've seen and everything we've heard indicates GM will get this right.

I'm not concerned because I know GM has the right people on this project. From Tom Peter's design team, to Doug Houlian's RWD archtecture team, to Cheryl Pilcher and others at corporate. These folks are passionate about what they do. We are in good hands.

.... besides.... if they were screwing it royally... we'd know by now. We'd be visiting Settlemire in a padded hospital room.

:D

Yep, exactly my thoughts

Bet a lot of folks forget all about the bad things they had to say about the GT500's weight, as it will all of a sudden not really matter what the new Camaro weighs....

Maybe Bob, maybe.....but I definitely will not be one of them.

It will be interesting if the new Camaro comes out and weighs within ~100 lbs of what the GT500 weighs.

Bet a lot of folks forget all about the bad things they had to say about the GT500's weight, as it will all of a sudden not really matter what the new Camaro weighs....door handles and mirrors will be much more important.

I tell ya...so long as it says "Camaro" on the side of it, has 2 doors, and is RWD (optional, perhaps) that will be enough for a great many people here.

To each their own, of course.
Bob

If the Camaro comes in anywhere near 3920 lbs then there will not be one sitting in my driveway :( . I would rather spend the 30-40k on a nicely used Corvette if it seriously comes in at ~3900 lbs.

I tell ya...so long as it says "Camaro" on the side of it, has 2 doors, and is RWD (optional, perhaps) that will be enough for a great many people here.



Sad but true....

I tell ya...so long as it says "Camaro" on the side of it, has 2 doors, and is RWD (optional, perhaps) that will be enough for a great many people here.


That's what Ford thought about the Probe, and they were clearly wrong. People, not just enthusiasts, clearly cared about power, weight, drive layout, and (for lack of a better word) cachet.

I don't think GM will make the same mistake.

Ok first off.....we know NOTHING about the production car whatsoever so the bickering is pointless.....Ive been waiting years for this car and ive said till i was blue in the face the camaro will return......second the car WILL handle why because it needs that to cpmpete in todays marketplace there is no reason why it wont handle unless ofcourse you want to hurt its sales also the car will HAUL ASS in a straight line why? because thats what a camaro does this car will be a diffrent beast then the F car i can tell you that and that is somthing we need to understand this is not the camaro of old this is a new car so wait and see ppl

Ok first off.....we know NOTHING about the production car whatsoever so the bickering is pointless.....Ive been waiting years for this car and ive said till i was blue in the face the camaro will return......second the car WILL handle why because it needs that to cpmpete in todays marketplace there is no reason why it wont handle unless ofcourse you want to hurt its sales also the car will HAUL ASS in a straight line why? because thats what a camaro does this car will be a diffrent beast then the F car i can tell you that and that is somthing we need to understand this is not the camaro of old this is a new car so wait and see ppl\


Thank you, Johnny!!!


I could not bear reading thru this entire thread (and I can hear a few people screaming as I type this with "see!!! He doesn't care!!!.......) as it is, to a point -- pointless == and reading it would get my blood pressure up - something the heart surgeon keeps warning me about. (and Charlie -- I WILL come back to haunt you if I go to that great Camaro showroom in the sky!)

Chaz and company: I don't know how many more times I -- or anyone else at GM ---needs to say this .....WEIGHT IS OUR ENEMY. Along those lines -- SIZE IS OUR ENEMY. (larger size equals more weight.) The Chief Engineer sent you a message -- and that message was something along the lines of Jenny Craig being involved. Mr. Lutz himself has told you that it won't grow -- ..........

so........please -- let's calm down.

Yes -- some of you are hyper-passionate -- and that's good....but you do not corner the market on passion for the Camaro!

Guys, remember...You can make some of the people happy some of the time, but not all of the people all of the time. No matter what happens there are going to be some people just not happy with whatever happens. I have had people who don't like the new Silverado for the simple reason it's not the old Silverado. That's evolution. Things change and the guys and ladies at GM will do their best to make as many people happy as possible (translation: sales $), but some will say it needs another 100HP, others it's 75lbs. too heavy, the seat needs to go up 1 inch, roof is 1 inch too low. Regardless it is coming back and as an enthusiast I am very excited, and as a dealer relieved. Now, let's wait to see what the next 18 months gives us.

Honestly, IF Charlie had titled this thread as something along the lines of " Rumor has it that the Camaro 'might' grow 4 inches...." I think we could have discussed the merits of the rumor and it's consequences in much less of an emotional manner.

Sometimes it's all in how it's presented.

Only a non-enthusiast would want a bigger / heavier Camaro....and that's why I have faith in the Camaro TEAM at Chevrolet....they ARE Camaro people. :bow:

Scott I for one am embarrassed that you have seen this thread. Clearly a lot of people were blowing smoke from the get-go and never had any intention of actually purchasing this car. The expected release date is still ~22 months away and already some are so desperate for an excuse not to buy it that they'll latch onto any negative comment regardless of the context or anything they've heard otherwise.

The silent majority still believes this car is going to be about as good as it can possibly be given practical constraints. We expect it will meet or exceed every reasonable expectation and as of yet have not been given any reason to feel otherwise.

That is, unless some of you feel Scott has been lying to us or deliberately blowing smoke up our asses all this time. If so, have the balls to step up and tell him so in the open forum as opposed to all this hysterical Chicken Little BS.

flamesuit on. i wouldn't expect anything less from this forum.

Honestly, IF Charlie had titled this thread as something along the lines of " Rumor has it that the Camaro 'might' grow 4 inches...." I think we could have discussed the merits of the rumor and it's consequences in much less of an emotional manner.

:

Okay, here's one Doug. 10 days ago Autoweek (Feb. 19th issue), reported that the Camaro's wheelbase is going to be 112.3". The concept's is 110.5".


Discuss....

Okay, here's one Doug. 10 days ago Autoweek (Feb. 19th issue), reported that the Camaro's wheelbase is going to be 112.3". The concept's is 110.5".


Discuss....

I can only add the one point that I've heard (somewhere)...that the wheel base was already stretched for the Camaro....causing some 'custom' modifications to get the wheels as far out to the corners as they are on the concept.....go.......

Why should anybody be embarrased that Scott (or anybody else) saw this thread?

Why would anybody need an excuse "not to buy it"? If someone doesn't want to buy it - they don't. No excuse needed.

While we're still talking about "some people" (from whatever point of view you happen to take in this discussion), "some people" are going to eat everything they are fed. "Some people" are not.

Gee....isn't that at least one thing that makes a discussion Forum a....well....discussion Forum?

No, I don't think Scott is "blowing smoke". Yes, I am skeptical. It is quite likely I will remain that way until proven wrong (or right...as unlikely as that may be). Is that "ballsy" enough for you? I don't think I've ever beat around the bush on this issue, and I'm certainly not afraid to state my skepticism directly to "the man" himself.

Personally, I have no doubt the car will have the HP. GM has that market pretty much cornered, IMO - that doesn't even enter into my thought process. Everything else is up for debate. Yup, we're all going to have to wait and see - even the nutswingers. In the meantime, I see nothing wrong with this type of thread being started with WHATEVER title it wears.

Bob

Relax guys. There is no weight issue with VE because although its a heavy beast, it handles like a BMW 3-series and performs like a V8 should.

Why does the concern re weight always reappear?

I remind people that we live in different times - crash protection rules are significantly tougher than last century AND customers don't buy bare bones cars anymore. This means weight will definitely increase over the older models but remember, in terms of performance, the VE is no slouch so I would expect the tighter Camaro to fare marginally better in a straight line and definitely better around corners.

Don't read too much into the specs as the VE is a good yardstick and I would expect Camaro to exceed that standard in almost every way. If you still don't want to believe me then wait until the car arrives at the dealership, ready for your evaluation. ;)

Scott I for one am embarrassed that you have seen this thread. .

Brown nose....


EDIT: Deleted smilie face.

I can only add the one point that I've heard (somewhere)...that the wheel base was already stretched for the Camaro....causing some 'custom' modifications to get the wheels as far out to the corners as they are on the concept.....go.......

I've heard the wheelbase will be about an inch longer on the production car vs the concept. I've also heard it will be incrementally shorter. :shrug:

I can only add the one point that I've heard (somewhere)...that the wheel base was already stretched for the Camaro....causing some 'custom' modifications to get the wheels as far out to the corners as they are on the concept.....go.......


Wait. I just re-read this Doug. Are you saying that the dimensions which were released for the concept weren't EXACTLY representative of the concept?

.......

Good post Bob. While I will continue to "keep the faith" (what else, at this point, do we got?) I certainly don't feel that any thoughts, ideas, hopes, dreams, FEARS, etc. need to be censored or apologized for in this forum.

We were told to keep the faith even when the last Camaro rolled off the line in August 2002 (man, has it been that long???) We've been rewarded for that. I personally don't see a point in anyone from GM blowing a haze up our backsides, because in the end we're going to see the car in its full glory anyway. So with that in mind, I guess I will just have to sit back and wait.

Wait. I just re-read this Doug. Are you saying that the dimensions which were released for the concept weren't EXACTLY representative of the concept?Where did you get that? :rolleyes: I read what Doug said as he understood they wanted to push the concept wheels to the corners and all they could do was 110 inches. Seeing that the concept has heritage styling based on the 68-69 Camaros (which were 108 inches) we're only talking about 2-inches here. :p

Where did you get that? :rolleyes: I read what Doug said as he understood they wanted to push the concept wheels to the corners and all they could do was 110 inches. Seeing that the concept has heritage styling based on the 68-69 Camaros (which were 108 inches) we're only talking about 2-inches here. :p

Hmmm...

Waiting for some clarification from Doug...

Hmmm...

Waiting for some clarification from Doug...

x 2.........

While we're still talking about "some people" (from whatever point of view you happen to take in this discussion), "some people" are going to eat everything they are fed. "Some people" are not.


In this case they're panning the food before they've even seen the menu.

I personally am not going to fly off the handle because of one comment from one person speculating that the car "might" be a couple of inches longer than the concept. I think I'll just crawl back under the rock with the rest of the spoon-fed nutswingers now while the mob digs out the torches & pitchforks for the big march on GM headquarters.

and all they could do was 110 inches.

The Commodore is already at 114.8" wheelbase.

Let's not forget that Zeta is supposed to have at least three wheelbases.

I thought that I had heard that the Camaro Concept was somewhat longer than the short WB Zeta, and required a slightly longer wheelbase, requiring some modification...but I can't be 100% certian IF they were talking about the donor chassis to the concept or the final production model. Sorry for the confusion.

I'm not sure what the short wheelbase Zeta is scheduled to be lengthwise....but that would certianly be a place to start investigating.

I certianly think that once the WB's are established, that's what we'll get....unless someone can determine IF the WB's are infinately variable (which I would seriously doubt).

IF the WB's are infinately variable (which I would seriously doubt).

They'll have specific wheelbases for each application they use zeta for. We know two for sure...... G8 and Camaro.

Three is probably about right, but who knows.

Brown nose....


EDIT: Deleted smilie face.

LOL I thought it good for Scott to know that not everyone here wets their bed over every little rumor or speculation.

Guys,

Charlie is a great guy with boatloads of enthusism and sweats the small stuff like no-one's business.

Personally I think the ship has already sailed as far as engineering input from enthusiasts and we can discuss the merits of any rumor of compromise ad nauseum...but until we see a production model, we're just spinning our wheels....give's us something to do though.....

Don't over-read emotion into Charlie's posts...he works real hard to be accurate and sometimes rumors are too big to pass up....he's on our side here.

Thanks for the kind words Doug. I also think that architecturally, what ever is gonna happen, is already a done deal.

Personally I think the ship has already sailed as far as engineering input from enthusiasts and we can discuss the merits of any rumor of compromise ad nauseum...but until we see a production model, we're just spinning our wheels....give's us something to do though.....

Though like everything else, this statement is just speculation, we can certainly agree on it.

Bob

Relax guys. There is no weight issue with VE because although its a heavy beast, it handles like a BMW 3-series and performs like a V8 should.

Why does the concern re weight always reappear?

I remind people that we live in different times - crash protection rules are significantly tougher than last century AND customers don't buy bare bones cars anymore. This means weight will definitely increase over the older models but remember, in terms of performance, the VE is no slouch so I would expect the tighter Camaro to fare marginally better in a straight line and definitely better around corners.

Don't read too much into the specs as the VE is a good yardstick and I would expect Camaro to exceed that standard in almost every way. If you still don't want to believe me then wait until the car arrives at the dealership, ready for your evaluation. ;)


Very good post.

For the record, no one should be embarrassed about me reading the thread. I have broad shoulders and the skin is getting thicker.

Now... -- the title of this thread is "I'm feeling pretty disappointed" -- or something like that. And I simply posted some facts that I wish a certain person would believe.

I guess I just want to see harmony on this and other sites rather than bickering.......and yes, my temper is short these days, so I suppose I'm just as guilty as anyone....

Autoweek can publish 'facts' until the cows come home - but remember that they do not sit in any of our meetings -- and we all know that misinformation is much more prevalent than good information. Their 'facts' are many times wrong.....when it comes to Camaro.

Anyone expecting to see a 3,000 pound Camaro at a Mustang price will be disappointed when they put it on the scale. That just ain't gonna happen for many reasons -- one of which is cost. The other is safety. It would be suicide to produce this car without 5 star crashworthiness ratings all around. To get a 5 star rating is going to add weight. That said -- the engineering isn't finished! The Chief Engineer -- not Autoweek --THE CHIEF ENGINEER.... assures me -- and Chaz -- that weight --or lack thereof -- is hugely important and lightness is taking a precedence. But that precedence has limits. You can't make the car out of titanium and expect to bring it in at a Camaro price.

Now......all that said........I've been around these cars for a lot of years. And I'm here to tell you that I've never -- ever -- seen the positive -- make that rabid -- response that this car has received. The car by any standard is a runaway hit. It continues to win awards....it's on the cover of many magazines - and nearly every auto show program/magazine. It draws crowds like none of us have ever seen ----

so......iwhen the car comes out -- and you've driven it...and you're disappointed cuz of the weight because it's north of 3,300 pounds -- I'm sorry -- but I won't apologize as long as it sells in numbers...and I think it will.

Meanwhile -- please -- you can carry on all you want about the weight -- I just don't quite understand why........'cuz you see......

YOU ARE PREACHING TO THE CHOIR!!!!

........by the way -- speaking of "preaching to the choir" -- did I mention that I love to road race? Did I mention that the Camaro is my lifelong passion? Did I mention that the Camaro has to be best in class? Did I mention that the Camaro has to put cars costing two/three times as much to shame?

(and did I mention that the 4th gen Camaro SS did that????)

Jeezoo...

Couple of nice posts by Fbod.

Okay, I get it - Houlihan has his eye on weight. Tell him to keep the other eye on size. ;)

........by the way -- speaking of "preaching to the choir" -- did I mention that I love to road race? Did I mention that the Camaro is my lifelong passion? Did I mention that the Camaro has to be best in class? Did I mention that the Camaro has to put cars costing two/three times as much to shame?

(and did I mention that the 4th gen Camaro SS did that????)

Point taken. I just have a short fuse when I hear the Camaro is a straight line car. My work is 60 miles away, not 1/4 mile. I want to have a little fun with spirited driving against the guy in the BMW. Every chase scene is a road race. Drag cars can only be enjoyed in short burst at a huge hit to your wallet. While its fun once in a while its not the norm for me personally.

I don't think anybody is expecting 3300 lbs (as much as I'd love to see it), and 3000 lbs is a silly number to even throw out there. In the end, and as has been said many times, we'll just have to wait and see.

FWIW....I'm not happy with the weight of the S197 Mustang (the GT500 is a graphic illustration of how big HP can be really hurt by big weight), and you'd be hard pressed not to call the new Mustang a success.

We shall see. Till then, color me skeptical - vocally so, on occasion.

Bob

Point taken. I just have a short fuse when I hear the Camaro is a straight line car. My work is 60 miles away, not 1/4 mile. I want to have a little fun with spirited driving against the guy in the BMW. Every chase scene is a road race. Drag cars can only be enjoyed in short burst at a huge hit to your wallet. While its fun once in a while its not the norm for me personally.

We have the same wants in cars. :D

Dang why does that Fbodyfather guy always mess up a good fight! :D

Hmm.... whats left, we've bickered about weight, wheelbase, overall length, engine, trans.. GM no longer needs a product clinic they have all they need on this board.

OK I'll be disappointed if the Camaro doesnt come to market with a strong V8, stunning concept like looks, class leading curb weight, room for golf clubs and 8 way power passenger seats.... YEA thats it if the Camaro doesn't have 8 way power passenger seats I'm going straignt to Dodge for a Challenger! ;)

Dang why does that Fbodyfather guy always mess up a good fight! :DBecause he's the "FbodFather"... and unless you want to end up at the bottom of Lake Michigan wearing cement sneakers, you had better heed his words of wisdom. ;)

Because he's the "FbodFather"... and unless you want to end up at the bottom of Lake Michigan wearing cement sneakers, you had better heed his words of wisdom. ;)


and then there is..................



..........THE DREADED BLACK SUBURBAN........

:lol:

you old men crack me up

;)

We have the same wants in cars. :D

Definately :)

Because he's the "FbodFather"... and unless you want to end up at the bottom of Lake Michigan wearing cement sneakers, you had better heed his words of wisdom. ;)

Wisdom smisdom I know where he lives.... besides I think Lake St. Clair is closer :D

Wisdom smisdom I know where he lives.... besides I think Lake St. Clair is closer :DSssssh.... that was to throw off the black Suburbans. ;)

Hey Scott, I hear the door handles are going to be very heavy. If that is the case, I may not buy one......














;)