L76 Powered Camaro?

After the introduction of the G8 with the L76, would that engine make it into any other US cars? Might this be the mid-level engine?

If we get a 300hp V6, a L76 Camaro sounds like it should fit right in. 390ftlbs is still good.

Will we see the L76 in other cars? Probably

Will we see it in the new Camaro. I doubt it.

The V8 is going to be, lets say for arguements sake, in the 425HP range. Having a 2nd V8 coming in around 360HP just doesnt make sense. It's too close together. GM would have to underprice the 360HP L76, or overprice the 425HP LSx. If the MSRP is too close together, who is going to buy an L76 when they could get more HP for a little more money. The cost of building either V8 is going to be close.... so its not a good business case to offer both.

I was kind of hoping the mid-level L76 camaro would be priced closer to the 300 hp v6, so that a lot of us could have an affordable V8 Camaro.

Guess I'm just holding out hope that they build a Camaro for those of us who want a V8 for a reasonable price. Correct me if I'm wrong (I'm a newbie on this board) but i think there may be a lot of us on the 'affordable v8' bandwagon.

I was kind of hoping the mid-level L76 camaro would be priced closer to the 300 hp v6, so that a lot of us could have an affordable V8 Camaro.

Guess I'm just holding out hope that they build a Camaro for those of us who want a V8 for a reasonable price. Correct me if I'm wrong (I'm a newbie on this board) but i think there may be a lot of us on the 'affordable v8' bandwagon.

Well, I'm all for the 'affordable V8'. But I'd like it to be a 400hp+ V8 also.

Considering what the 'affordable' V8's of today are putting out, an affordable one in 2 years should be putting out about 400 anyway. Horsepower goes up all the time, so I'm pretty confident a 400hp Camaro WILL be the affordable V8 of 2009.

i dont think we need a v8 thats close to any v6 model. for example the new DOHC 3.6 that GM is using, will put down about 300 depending on what vehicle its put in. Why would you need a v8 that has only a few more ponies? the majority of young consumers would buy the v6 model because of insurance, and everyone else would buy the 400+ hp v8 model. The "in between" v8 would be targeted at a very small percentage of buyers and is not necassary imo.

Is it true this L76 has the L92 heads that are supposedly a "truck" version of the LS7 heads? GMHTP's head comparo shootout series showed them to be pretty damned awesome, what kind of runt peanut cam did they stick in this L76 to stiffle the output to 360ish hp? Wonder if that's underrated some or what, or maybe it's the tune since someone mentioned it's tuned for 87 octance in another thread.

If this makes it into the midrange or maybe even just the standard V8 Camaro model there would seem to be alot of room for HP improvement w/ a better cam and/or a more aggressive tune. Heck, for the Camaro model GM may go w/ a larger cam and tune from the factory...

GMHTP got like 540hp out of a LS2 w/ a "Stage II" cam, dyno headers, the L92 heads and the matching L76 intake on a engine dyno, which was something like a 40 hp improvement over the LS2 heads with the same cam/exhaust setup and matched/beat most of the aftermarket heads tested too...

Makes me wonder what GM had to cripple to get it down to 360hp vs the LS2s 400, that's "only" the kind of output they were getting from the LS1. I mean how do you have a 6.0 liter w/ significantly better heads than the LS2 and yet throw 40 hp out the window, the cam would have to be pitiful?? I will be interested to see what they put down at the wheels on a dyno.

Although it sounds like it has pretty amazing potential, I will be disappointed if this is the standard affordable V8 option for the SS or Z28. I've been assuming a 400-425+ hp LS3 would be the standard...

Will we see the L76 in other cars? Probably

Will we see it in the new Camaro. I doubt it.

The V8 is going to be, lets say for arguements sake, in the 425HP range. Having a 2nd V8 coming in around 360HP just doesnt make sense. It's too close together. GM would have to underprice the 360HP L76, or overprice the 425HP LSx. If the MSRP is too close together, who is going to buy an L76 when they could get more HP for a little more money. The cost of building either V8 is going to be close.... so its not a good business case to offer both.

If the only V8 option is a 425hp one, then Camaro's fate is sealed.
Thinking that the price gap being close will either make someone pick one or the other, thats rather stupid! Not EVERYONE wants a 425hp V8 Camaro! But with Mustang getting a 260-280hp V6 by 09, and a 350+hp V8 as well, what will the people who just want a potent V8 do if they want Camaro? spend over 30k for a V8?
If this is how its gunna be, Camaro is doomed. This is EXACTLY what happend with Camaro in the 4th gen. 325hp V8 was a monster, but not EVERYONE wanted a 325hp Camaro!
You are leaving a 125hp gap from the 3.6 to the 6.2 That is a lot of people you are leaving out in the dark, a lot.
Not everyone will justify the close price gap of a 360hp V8 and a 425hp by a few bucks. Not everyone who buys Camaro is an enthusiast. People will want a mild V8 car that gives them good power and handling without having hp to wrap themselves around a telephone pole, or cause insurance to sky rocket, or all the rest of the goodies that come along with an "affordable" 400hp+ coupe.

If the only V8 option is a 425hp one, then Camaro's fate is sealed.
Thinking that the price gap being close will either make someone pick one or the other, thats rather stupid! Not EVERYONE wants a 425hp V8 Camaro! But with Mustang getting a 260-280hp V6 by 09, and a 350+hp V8 as well, what will the people who just want a potent V8 do if they want Camaro? spend over 30k for a V8?
If this is how its gunna be, Camaro is doomed. This is EXACTLY what happend with Camaro in the 4th gen. 325hp V8 was a monster, but not EVERYONE wanted a 325hp Camaro!
You are leaving a 125hp gap from the 3.6 to the 6.2 That is a lot of people you are leaving out in the dark, a lot.
Not everyone will justify the close price gap of a 360hp V8 and a 425hp by a few bucks. Not everyone who buys Camaro is an enthusiast. People will want a mild V8 car that gives them good power and handling without having hp to wrap themselves around a telephone pole, or cause insurance to sky rocket, or all the rest of the goodies that come along with an "affordable" 400hp+ coupe.

stupid? hardly.

yup, it's doomed. I'd give Mr Peper a call and tell them to scuttle the program now.

:rolleyes:

The whole point of this new Camaro is it has to appeal to non enthusiats, and they are not going to care about a V8.

So long as the base V8 Camaro is priced competetively vs the base V8 Mustang, then all will be well.

Well, I'm all for the 'affordable V8'. But I'd like it to be a 400hp+ V8 also.

Considering what the 'affordable' V8's of today are putting out, an affordable one in 2 years should be putting out about 400 anyway. Horsepower goes up all the time, so I'm pretty confident a 400hp Camaro WILL be the affordable V8 of 2009.


I agree. 400 sounds like a nice number.

Pricing a 425hp V8 Camaro along side a 350hp Mustang GT....
Not having a mid 300hp V8 engine will be the decline.
There will be either a 280hp V6 that will be mid pack, or a 425hp Camaro, leaving the people inthe middle only to go to Mustang land. Good move.
Same closed mindedness that 4th gens have. 200hp V6 will have to apease the people, while the enthusiasts went after the 300hp V8's, leaving the mid 200's for the GT to eat Camaro's lunch, on top of offerieng a near 300hp Cobra option for the die hards.

There will be either a 280hp V6 that will be mid pack, or a 425hp Camaro, leaving the people inthe middle only to go to Mustang land. Good move.

Pure speculation regarding what they will do, but I dont think there will be that big of a gap between HP offerings.

Everybody agrees on a V6 around 285 hp for around $22k, right?

And we're all pretty comfortable with a V8 at about 425 hp for about $35k, right?

But no one sees a need for a 350 hp V8 at about $28.5k? Particularly in light of CAFE and insurance?

And we're all pretty comfortable with a V8 at about 425 hp for about $35k, right?

I'm not.

Base V8 Mustang MSRPs at $26,440, and we already know Camaro will be price competetive against it. Shame on Ford if the best they can deliver at that price is 300HP.

When this is all said and done, V6 Camaros may very well be a better fight for the Mustang GT. :D

I'm not.

Base V8 Mustang MSRPs at $26,440, and we already know Camaro will be price competetive against it. Shame on Ford if the best they can deliver at that price is 300HP.

When this is all said and done, V6 Camaros may very well be a better fight for the Mustang GT. :D

425HP might be the top dog. If the 362HP engine was used as a entry v8 priced at the same as the mustang, it could work.

why not 425HP at a Mustang price?

Don't you young whooper-snappers realize that the 4th generation was the ONLY generation of the Camaro that DIDN'T have multiple V8 options, which included a mid-range V8.

1st Gen 327's, 350's, big blocks
2nd Gens, 307's, 350's, 400's (?), big blocks
3rd Gens, various iterations of the 305 and 350. In the late years, you could get a 305 throttle-body injected in a Camaro RS. This was an ENTRY LEVEL V8 CAMARO... It sat between the V6 Camaro and the Z28. It was a weak nut V8, but it was not considered bad for its time and it was definitely a lot more fun than the V6, as it had no hp but had gobs of low end torque. GM simultaneously offered a 2.8L V6, 305 throttle-body (RS), 305 tuned-port (Z28/IROC-Z 5-speed) and 350 tuned-port (Z28/IROC-Z automatic). My best friend had an '89 Firebird Formula with the 305 throttle body engine. The car looked super nice, clean, one of the best looking non-Trans-Am-Firebirds ever made and it had the lowly 305 throttle body motor in it. But you know what? It was still a V8 and it was still fun to drive.

Give me a base model, CLOTH seat, power-nothing, metal roof, '09 with a 360hp V8. Ford is talking about a 350hp V8 for the next Mustang. It would still beat that and it would have huge potential with cam/head work as usual, where the Mustang doesn't.

Here's an old scanned pic I dug up of my best friend's '89 Firebird Formula. It was used (he had it in 1993), but had 29,000 miles on it. It had "new car smell" when you opened the doors and the interior was as clean as a show car. I loved the flat dash, low seating position and red gauges that pointed straight down when at 0!

http://Duran.smugmug.com/photos/122795300-L.jpg

I say "entry V8" for 25-26k and it will make the cover of magazines as the best performance car bargain in history (since the LS1 Z28 of course)... then offer the 425+hp unit for around 33k to compete in the higher priced category.

-Michael

Don't you young whooper-snappers realize that the 4th generation was the ONLY generation of the Camaro that DIDN'T have multiple V8 options, which included a mid-range V8.


With as many engines as GM has in their arsenal, I don't know why they wouldn't want to offer multiple V8 options... I can't imagine that doing so would cost any more to manufacture, and it certainly would help to broaden the appeal.

Hopefully we will be getting a 400-ish hp LS3 and in the second year of production a 500hp LS8/9 to go after the top dog Mustang. Even if there is a big hp gap from the V6 to LS3, why is that such a bad idea? Shouldnt there be for having a more performance oriented package? Remember, you wont be paying for just a motor, but beefed up brakes, suspension, and drivetrain (hopefully) as well. Besides, you can pretty much bet on a 400hp Camaro for around the same price as a Mustang GT. :bow:

Hopefully we will be getting a 400-ish hp LS3 and in the second year of production a 500hp LS8/9 to go after the top dog Mustang. Even if there is a big hp gap from the V6 to LS3, why is that such a bad idea? Shouldnt there be for having a more performance oriented package? Remember, you wont be paying for just a motor, but beefed up brakes, suspension, and drivetrain (hopefully) as well. Besides, you can pretty much bet on a 400hp Camaro for around the same price as a Mustang GT. :bow:

I just think that having more powertrain options will help make it appeal to more people. For example, if GM can indeed put out a 400+HP Camaro that is relatively close in price to a mustang GT, then why not put out a 300-350HP package that compares favorably to the mustang GT in power, but undercuts it in price by a few thousand. I think you would have a lot more people who are on the fence between the mustang and Camaro choose the Camaro....

well i have changed my mind...i agree now that there should be a mid level v8, but why have one that had nearly the same horsepower ratings as a v6??? my vote would be:
entry level v6 ~250hp
performance v6~300hp
mid level v8~360+ (has to beat mustangs 350)
performance v8~450
top dog~500-? :bow:

that would cover pretty much every level of buyer i hope :D

if it has to be the L67--I'd take it--rather have a 5.3L 330hp. Bottom line is we need a mid-level 300hp ish V8--thats very near the Mustang GT in price.

A for the base V6--I am not in favour of DI 300hp 3.6L--too much power for base. 255-260hp is enough.

if it has to be the L67--I'd take it--rather have a 5.3L 330hp. Bottom line is we need a mid-level 300hp ish V8--thats very near the Mustang GT in price.

A for the base V6--I am not in favour of DI 300hp 3.6L--too much power for base. 255-260hp is enough.

My opinion on the matter is that a large amount of family sedans are getting the 255-260hp NOW. In 2 years, that may be pushed even a little higher.

Even if it's not, the Camaro is a 'sporty' car, so even in base for SHOULD have at least a little more than a 260hp family sedan. 285-310 would, imo, be ideal for a base sporty car so even those that can't afford a V8 can at least have the satisfaction that their Camaro has more 'oomph' than their parents sedan (2007 Camry V6 has 268hp).

Basically all Camaro/Mustang type vehicles should look to what the V6 sedans are getting, and have at least 25hp more.

well i agree, but that camry is like the top dog camry :lol: and the base camaro would still beat it with ~250-260 hp because RWD and better suspension setup

My opinion on the matter is that a large amount of family sedans are getting the 255-260hp NOW. In 2 years, that may be pushed even a little higher.

Even if it's not, the Camaro is a 'sporty' car, so even in base for SHOULD have at least a little more than a 260hp family sedan. 285-310 would, imo, be ideal for a base sporty car so even those that can't afford a V8 can at least have the satisfaction that their Camaro has more 'oomph' than their parents sedan (2007 Camry V6 has 268hp).

Basically all Camaro/Mustang type vehicles should look to what the V6 sedans are getting, and have at least 25hp more.

I think your missing something in your logic.....a mid sized family sedan with the optional, higher priced trim...has the high power V6 with more then 255hp.

So the question is...does the V6 Camaro need to be more powerful, faster ect then every single V6 family sedan??

I say no. There have lawyas been cases where the Camaros lower engines could be out powered by other cars---that are not even in competion or even in the segment.

Was it an issue then? Not that I can think of?

Want to stomp on Family V6 sedans?? Get the V8!

And taking a quick look---the Maxima and Camry (yawn) are the only ones I can think of with more the 260hp.

Loom at the Mustang...210hp! low 15/high 14 at best. There are more then a few V6 FWD family sedans that can beat that.....but I don't think anyone cares.

As usual a few points.

1) That 268 hp camry recently got awarded the second fastest vehicle under 25K. I hate to magazine race but Car and Driver got a 0-60 time of 5.8 and a quartermile of 14.3!!!

So how is this relevent?? I would, without a doubt, expect even the lowest model Camaro to be able to match or exceed those times.

2)Again, domestic cars already have an image problem and having your friend's moms $24K grocery getter/family car outrun your pony car is REDICULOUS regardless of trim.

3) Also, as i have said before, do not hold your breath for a stripper V8 model. Can you even get an Impala, Monte Carlo, or any other GM car with a V8 and cloth interior nowadays? (this is a question not a statement)

4) I'm all for multiple engine options, heck, it will make my 425hp Camaro rarer and more iconic. BUT, I am not for a 240hp budget Camaro that gets a gazillion miles to the gallon but cant even turn over the tires and does is at best a 15 second car.

They did it with the Cadillacs and the 2.8 so its not like they havent tried this stunt before.

4) BUT, I am not for a 240hp budget Camaro that gets a gazillion miles to the gallon but cant even turn over the tires and does is at best a 15 second car.


I agree with all of your points except the one above. The majority of people who will be in the market for a Camaro are not concerned about turning over the tires or 1/4 mile times. They will be like every other person who has purchased a V-6 pony car in the past. They want a sporty looking car that has descent power and descent gas milage.

I could care less if GM offers a Camaro that can not spin the tires, does the 1/4 in 20 seconds and gets 50 mpg as long as my Camaro can burn the tires and run a 1/4 mile in the low 12's upper 11's; also if that kind of Camaro will sell in numbers, then i am all for it as I don't want to see the Camaro killed off again.

I agree with all of your points except the one above. The majority of people who will be in the market for a Camaro are not concerned about turning over the tires or 1/4 mile times. They will be like every other person who has purchased a V-6 pony car in the past. They want a sporty looking car that has descent power and descent gas milage.

I could care less if GM offers a Camaro that can not spin the tires, does the 1/4 in 20 seconds and gets 50 mpg as long as my Camaro can burn the tires and run a 1/4 mile in the low 12's upper 11's; also if that kind of Camaro will sell in numbers, then i am all for it as I don't want to see the Camaro killed off again.

I completely understand. But don't get me wrong, i'm ALL for an affordable V6 camaro, all i'm saying is that it needs to be a somewhat competent performer. I mean, its still a pony car afterall.

We know that it will probably cost GM the same amount of money to make a 300hp V6 as it would a 240hp V6, so surely cost is not a factor. I doubt that the 30-60 extra hp will really make insurance rates that much higher (but i could be wrong)

Here are "LandonElf's Minimum requirements for the cheapest V6 5th gen Camaro"

0-60- 6.2 seconds or less
1/4- 14.7 seconds or less
HP- 250 (don't care as long as performance times are good ie lotus)
TQ-260 (ditto)
Price- 19,999

These numbers should be realistically obtained with a good driver even with an automatic. With this the car will at least be in the territory of pretty much all of the family sedans and coupes on the market.

I completely understand. But don't get me wrong, i'm ALL for an affordable V6 camaro, all i'm saying is that it needs to be a somewhat competent performer. I mean, its still a pony car afterall.

We know that it will probably cost GM the same amount of money to make a 300hp V6 as it would a 240hp V6, so surely cost is not a factor. I doubt that the 30-60 extra hp will really make insurance rates that much higher (but i could be wrong)

Here are "LandonElf's Minimum requirements for the cheapest V6 5th gen Camaro"

0-60- 6.2 seconds or less
1/4- 14.7 seconds or less
HP- 250 (don't care as long as performance times are good ie lotus)
TQ-260 (ditto)
Price- 19,999

These numbers should be realistically obtained with a good driver even with an automatic. With this the car will at least be in the territory of pretty much all of the family sedans and coupes on the market.

I guess I see where you are coming from. If they only offer one V-6, then i don't think it should be some low level 200HP motor.... it should certainly meet the requirements you just described. However, if they offer 2 V-6s, then I don't know why one of them should not be a "value" v-6, especially if it gets amazing gas milage, just to appeal to the people who could care less about performance and just want style.

As I said before though, I don't really care because i am not in the market for a V-6.... I want the 425+ HP V-8 baby!!!!

I guess I see where you are coming from. If they only offer one V-6, then i don't think it should be some low level 200HP motor.

don't think we have to wrroy about that. GM only has 1 V6 (passenger car) configured for RWD. The 3.6L---and it won't be anyting less then 255, IMO.

I agree with LandonElf on the performance of the V6 but I doubt it needs a 300hp DI to do it.

As I said before though, I don't really care because i am not in the market for a V-6.... I want the 425+ HP V-8 baby!!!!

Yea, exact same situation here. Its obvious we are seriously running out of things to talk about on this forum :cry:

Yea, exact same situation here. Its obvious we are seriously running out of things to talk about on this forum :cry:

:lol: very true....

How many truck 5.3 liters do you think they have lating around? Slap the L92 heads on those blocks with the standard truck cam and there's your midlevel V8.

The way I see it, there will only be two V8's available. A LS3 for the ** and a 6.2L S/C LS* for the ***. :D

The way I see it, there will only be two V8's available. A LS3 for the ** and a 6.2L S/C LS* for the ***. :D

I hope you are right... :D

Well, if thats the case, I will be buying my Camaro sooner then I thought, cause I dont see Camaro sustaining a production run of more then 3-4 years. If the ONLY option is a 425hp V8 engine, or a 500hp engine, that will do two things
#1- priced in the attainable range, that will put MASSIVE hp into the hands of kids that shouldnt be driving more then a 140hp Civics. What does mommy and daddy know?
#2- linked to #1...insurance rates will be through the friggin roof. 17 year olds killing themselves...great
#3- not everyone wants a 425hp car for under 30k, but not everyone wants to be stuck with a sub 300hp V6. This is where the Mustang is successful. If GM/Chevy cant see that, then they are blind.

Well, if thats the case, I will be buying my Camaro sooner then I thought, cause I dont see Camaro sustaining a production run of more then 3-4 years. If the ONLY option is a 425hp V8 engine, or a 500hp engine, that will do two things
#1- priced in the attainable range, that will put MASSIVE hp into the hands of kids that shouldnt be driving more then a 140hp Civics. What does mommy and daddy know?
#2- linked to #1...insurance rates will be through the friggin roof. 17 year olds killing themselves...great
#3- not everyone wants a 425hp car for under 30k, but not everyone wants to be stuck with a sub 300hp V6. This is where the Mustang is successful. If GM/Chevy cant see that, then they are blind.

Looking at 1 and 2 as one unit, I personally don't think many 17yr olds will be driving around in new Camaro's. 'Attainable' to a 20something still isn't very 'attainable' to a 17yr old who is either still in high school or just graduating.

My first car (at 17) was a V8 Camaro Berlinetta my parents bought me. It was an '82 (it was 1991 when I got my license). How many 17yr olds are getting brand new Camaro's given to them? A few of the spoiled rotten ones perhaps, but certainly not enough for it to be a concern.

If you want to say perhaps when a USED 400hp Camaro is attainable to a 17yo it would be too much hp I could understand. But consider by the time they are available at that price 400 will probably be common, if not UNDER what average V8's are putting out at the time. I mean how long is it generally that a $30,000 (average original price) starts showing up on used car lots for a price that an average 17yr old can afford? 4 years? More? 4 years puts that at 2013. By 2013 400hp may be 'weak' when compared to other vehicles of the time.

Most people I know (average car buyers) that like the Mustang don't even give hp much consideration. I doubt many buyers look at the Mustang and think 'Ah, just enough hp. Not too much, not too little. Don't want something TOO powerful now.'

Eh, I'm rambling... LOL I just don't see the points your making as being as serious as you do. That's all.

A tuner in Australia swapped out the exhaust system on the Comodore VE and ended up with 362 HP at the rear wheels on the old L76. They estimate a 15% loss through the drive train, so that puts flywheel at 425+/-. I'm more that happy with a much lighter Camaro having an L76 if it responds that well to this sort of mod. I'll take the DOD fuel savings all day to boot. :bow:

Here's the link:

http://www.surefloexhaust.com.au/ve.htm

Looking at 1 and 2 as one unit, I personally don't think many 17yr olds will be driving around in new Camaro's. 'Attainable' to a 20something still isn't very 'attainable' to a 17yr old who is either still in high school or just graduating.

My first car (at 17) was a V8 Camaro Berlinetta my parents bought me. It was an '82 (it was 1991 when I got my license). How many 17yr olds are getting brand new Camaro's given to them? A few of the spoiled rotten ones perhaps, but certainly not enough for it to be a concern.

Enough to where it caused 4th gen insurance rates to get out of control. I knew a lot of kids that wanted the baddest thing on the block, and hi-po Fbodies and Cobra's were the ones they got mommy and daddy to buy.

If you want to say perhaps when a USED 400hp Camaro is attainable to a 17yo it would be too much hp I could understand. But consider by the time they are available at that price 400 will probably be common, if not UNDER what average V8's are putting out at the time. I mean how long is it generally that a $30,000 (average original price) starts showing up on used car lots for a price that an average 17yr old can afford? 4 years? More? 4 years puts that at 2013. By 2013 400hp may be 'weak' when compared to other vehicles of the time.

400hp is too much power for 95% of the 17 year olds, I dont care what the standard is. 400hp is a lot of power for pretty much anyone if they cant control it.

Most people I know (average car buyers) that like the Mustang don't even give hp much consideration. I doubt many buyers look at the Mustang and think 'Ah, just enough hp. Not too much, not too little. Don't want something TOO powerful now.'
Eh, I'm rambling... LOL I just don't see the points your making as being as serious as you do. That's all.

You dont know that, you are a car enthusiast. The way you and I look at cars is more power = better. I personaly dont care, I would LOVE to see a 425hp Camaro for about 30k. BUT, we can look to the past, and how the Camaro became an enthusiast car, while Mustang stayed a pony car. Not offereing variety and choices will only cause the Camaro to stumble in sales. Sure, V8 sales will always be there, as they were for the 4th gen and every other gen, but there is a BIG market in the middle that really just wants a solid V8 Camaro, not with tons of hp or all this extra stuff that is gunna have to be equpied with a 425hp Camaro, they dont want to pay the price of all that, and they dont want to have a sub-300hp V6 car either. People want a 300-380hp V8, and the current Mustang GT fills this need and sells WELL!! For Chevy to skip over this while they have the hardware in the L76 is just dumb!! Not having a mid 300hp V8 in Camaro will hurt it, when there all there is to choose from is a 280hp V6 or a 425hp V8. Thats pretty much the same exact gap that 4th gens had, and left everyone else in the middle that had no aliance to GM in either a Mustang GT or several other vehicles.
Ergonomics, variety and design will be where Camaro wins, not in having the biggest engine under 30k. Frankly, I would rather GM charge over 35k for a Z28. 30k for 425hp means to me that they had to cut corners somewhere. Brakes, suspension, quality, what have you...If I have a 425hp Camaro, i want it to stop too, take a turn without tipping over, and not be a rattle trap in 30k miles.



edit: look at this 87 Training vid for the Camaro. They knew THEN what people wanted from Camaro. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8NQrnkjbGiY&NR

Al, why are you assuming the best GM can get out of a V6 is only 280HP?

I know its not the best, but I dont see them putting in anything more powerful then a 300-310hp V6 passed down from Caddy's CTS.
My problem is that even with a 310hp V6, that leaves a lot of open ground between that and a V8, the ONLY V8 option.
The way I see it is this, with the other Zeta cars probably getting an L76, what exactly be the increase in cost in all of this? I dont see an Impala with a V6 or a 425hp V8 option going against a Hemi Charger/300 in the 350-370hp range, and a "Boss" powered RWD sedans from Ford.

I know its not the best, but I dont see them putting in anything more powerful then a 300-310hp V6 passed down from Caddy's CTS.
My problem is that even with a 310hp V6, that leaves a lot of open ground between that and a V8, the ONLY V8 option.
The way I see it is this, with the other Zeta cars probably getting an L76, what exactly be the increase in cost in all of this? I dont see an Impala with a V6 or a 425hp V8 option going against a Hemi Charger/300 in the 350-370hp range, and a "Boss" powered RWD sedans from Ford.


I would be shocked to not see the L76 or the newest version of that engine be the "base" v8. Isn't the Boss 5.0 base version starting at 330HP? That would be the family. As the car lines start to meld down, maybe the automakers will introduce more engine options. Guy will have to chime in to explain if any of this is feasable or not....

I'm new to this forum is the I6 out of the trailblazer too long for the new camaro. Its got 291 hp but I heard its pricer to produce because of the dohc. I have a 2002 Trailblazer with one I like the motor so far. But 425 hp sounds good to me.

The Atlas 4200 Inline 6 is too long and too tall to put in anything other then a truck.

That's too bad. A straight six would be cool for nostalgia reasons. Oh well. I guess we'll have to be content with whatever V6 they put in it. *sigh*

I was thinking about the L76 as well. It makes sense from a cost perspective, since L76 volumes will be higher then LS3 with Holden, and the new North American rear drive cars. Chevy has to get the price tag close to Mustang if they want to compete, and putting the L76 in instead of the LS3 is probably a benefit event though there is a performance loss. I thought I saw the G8's L76 with closer to 380-390 hp, so that puts you closer to the 400hp mark. Has a new Corvette motor (LS3) ever appeared in the Camaro in the same year, or has there been a couple of year delay in the past? LS2 should be no more once LS3 is launched, and I can't see the Corvette guys sharing their new powertrain with the Camaro guys right away. So L76 is the base V8. We also know that Chevy is working on the LS9 for the Corvette, but their have been rumors about a smaller/detuned LS8. That would make the V6 (at whatever hp rating), the L76 as the base V8 (say Z28), and the LS8 (as the SS). As for the Mustang - Ford has seen the concepts that GM and Dodge are bringing to the table, both having 6.0L+ V8s for competition with the Mustang GT. Ford is digging their own grave if they don't up the performance of the Mustang to compete. The various mags (although often not completly accurate) are all saying that the Mustang will have an V8 option above the current GT but under GT500.

LS2 should be no more once LS3 is launched, and I can't see the Corvette guys sharing their new powertrain with the Camaro guys right away.

Why is that? They did it with the GTO and it seemed to work out just fine.


As for the volume-cost benefits of using the L76, I think the only way they will see any real cost benefit due to sheer volume would be if they use the L76 in all of the RWD cars other than the vette.

Even then, using the LS3 motor would also make sense for GM so they don't have to eat so much of the fixed costs on one product line (corvette). Using the LS3 in the Camaro would help to control the costs for both the Camaro and the Corvette.

Casull,
You are correct about the GTO and the Corvette in '05.
I'm just becoming a Chevy guy, so my history might be off, but I thought when Corvette got a new powertrain, it was normally a year or so before it appeared in the Camaro. Maybe I'm wrong, let me know.

As for the LS2 disappearing. Didn't LS1 disappear when LS2 was launched. I just can't see GM having 3 6.0L/6.2L naturally aspirated engines for cars alone (L76, LS2, LS3).

As for the cost benefit. I could see the L76 being the V8 option for all the North American rear drive vehicles (excluding Cadillac, as they have their own new engines coming). Would you agree that Camaro needs to get close to Mustang on price. Camaro has a brand new platform, Mustang has an established platform (I think they are planning some body changes but that's cheap in comparison). If Camaro can share it's base V8 with the premium V8 for the other platforms I think that a good cost to performance trade off. Otherwise where else are they going to make up for the cost of the platform.

The LS2 will go away with the introduction of the LS3. Also it would cost the same to put a midlevel V-8 into the Camaro as it would the dreaded 425 hp engine. GM wouldn't be able to offer a significant price drop for it so it would be pointless to even offer it. Anyway, I don't see any problem with a 425 hp Camaro that will be in the same price range as a 350ish hp Mustang.

I think GM will do it right. Ford just has a catastrophically bad year according to there profit numbers (or lack thereof). So coming out with a brand new Camaro that is similarly priced yet has 75 more hp and a better suspension is going to be devastating for ford. I know they will see this opportunity.

To quote President Nixon from Futurama "I like to Kickem while there down"

I don't see a problem with a lower power base V8, but i just hope it doesn't artificially inflate the 425hp one.

It might not cost more to put in the 6.2 vs the 6.0, but the 6.2 should include a lot more then just a bigger engine.
Brakes, suspension, seats, wheels, tires, other things that would seperate the Z28 as being a lot more then just a Camaro with a big engine. It needs to be a REAL Z28.
The problem with the GT500 is that outside of the engine...there isnt a lot else to marvel at. Everyone comments on the sloppy handling with the nose heavy body, and with that live axle, the car wont hug turns as well as it would with a well designed IRS. THIS is my biggest fear with Z28. It needs to be a lot more then just a slightly upgraded Camaro.

I don't scour this board frequently anymore, but I have read more than enough times from guys on here in "the know" that suggest that the 6.2 Camaro comes in at a Mustang GT pricepoint. I don't see why GM couldn't do it. I certainly don't want to see some crappy 360hp v8 in the Camaro in 2009.

It is ridiculous to think that if GM prices a 400-425hp Camaro directly against a 330-350hp Mustang GT, that they aren't going to advertise the hell out of that fact. I can't understand how some of you people on here still believe that it was "too much horsepower" that killed the 4th gens. Look at a 4th gen. Sit in a 4th gen. The car was too radical for the mass consumer. Most people don't even know what the hell horsepower is, let alone what it means. Hell, if the 5th gen comes in around 3700-3800lbs, even with 400hp it still isn't going to be world faster than an LS1 4th gen, and I haven't seen dead bodies of people thrown from crashed 4th gens littering the road. Prices have dropped pretty low on LS1 cars now, so they are pretty attainable to anyone who might want one, even young males.

My take on what happens when the 5th gen comes out: GM produces a car people love to look at, is relatively easy to live with as far as these kinds of cars go, and makes a decent quality v6 version for a change. The 400hp-ish v8 will just be icing on the cake to GM, and people will be talking about how great of a bargain it is. I am highly suspect people will be killing themselves left and right in these cars with 400hp:rolleyes: 362hp is more than enough to get yourself killed with if you should desire. Hell, that much is not even necessary. The 5th gen is doomed:rolleyes: Yeah, ok.

I really have to roll my eyes when people say 330-370hp is too low for a base V8. People have just gone HP insane--where anyting under 400 is considered weak, slow and way too low:confused: I just don't get that at all.

Isn't CAFE supposed to be going up? I certalinly cannot see why a 5.3L wouldn't beat the hell out of a 6.2L in that matter.

I havent gone through all the pages of this post, but my take on the benefit of L76 is the cylinders deactivation. I dont see why GM cannot have an affordable L76 V8 between the V6 and the "top dog". Dodge is doing it with the Charger, having 2 V6's and 2 V8's. There's abosultely nothing wrong with offering choices.

I'm at this junction right now with trying to pick my next ride. I really really dig the playfulness and fun'ness of being in the Charger R/T with the road and track package. Maybe even that Daytona package. However, I'm in a slight dilema. That SRT-8 charger can be attained with another few more thousand on top of the price of the Daytona or the R/T with Road/track package. I called my insurance company and the price difference between the 2 engine types is only $20 for the 6months. I'm also aware of the fuel economy difference between the 6.1Hemi (with no cylinder decativtion) compared to the 5.7Hemi. I really want the SRT8, and I certainly dont mind the 5.7hemi, which was still not slouch.

In the end, I've come to the conclusion that, at my age and where I'm at with kids and all, that I wont be utilizing all that SRT8 power most of the time. However, I'll be penalizing myself with poor fuel economy from driving around town most of the time. The 5.7Hemi just makes more economical sense to me, just for right now. Maybe in the future, I can always consider the SRT8 again.

sorry this is long winded, but I just want to point out that if this is how I'm thinking with regards to engine choices, that others will also. Give the customer a choice. I have no doubt that there will be plenty of people that wants to be seen in a Camaro with a V8, but dont necessary want the top dog. certainly enough that I wont even consider a Camaro V6 that can hang with a Mustang GT. I want that with a V8. GM will put another nail in the coffin for the Camaro if the next Camaro with the only V8 at 450'ish HP. where do you price this thing? at the Mustang GT (350'ish HP) ? That's unrealistic.

I really have to roll my eyes when people say 330-370hp is too low for a base V8. People have just gone HP insane--where anyting under 400 is considered weak, slow and way too low:confused: I just don't get that at all.

Isn't CAFE supposed to be going up? I certalinly cannot see why a 5.3L wouldn't beat the hell out of a 6.2L in that matter.


First of all, the car is going to be heavy. Most people seem to glaze over that when talking about horsepower numbers. 370hp is great an all, but not when it is dragging around 3700lbs. Mind you, a power-to-weight ratio of 10lbs:1hp is good, but it is pretty much in the area of the power-to-weight ratio of a 4th gen LS1. That isn't exactly progress. Second, it will almost be a new decade by the time this car comes out, and a 370hp performance v8 doesn't look that good. I certainly would not be impressed by a 6.0L v8 making 362hp now, let alone 2 or 3 years from now.

GM will put another nail in the coffin for the Camaro if the next Camaro with the only V8 at 450'ish HP. where do you price this thing? at the Mustang GT (350'ish HP) ? That's unrealistic.

Why?

So let me get this straight... even if there is only one V8 Camaro (I seriously doubt that ever happening) it would be a bad thing if it had 100-hp more than the Mustang GT, even though it had an MSRP within $500 +/- of the Ford?

I just don't get it I guess.

So let me get this straight... even if there is only one V8 Camaro (I seriously doubt that ever happening) it would be a bad thing if it had 100-hp more than the Mustang GT, even though it had an MSRP within $500 +/- of the Ford?

I just don't get it I guess.

Yeah, that is what I am not understanding either.

So let me get this straight... even if there is only one V8 Camaro (I seriously doubt that ever happening) it would be a bad thing if it had 100-hp more than the Mustang GT, even though it had an MSRP within $500 +/- of the Ford?

I just don't get it I guess.

I could be missing the mark, but I read it as: he is skeptical that GM will be able to price a 450HP Camaro within a few hundred of a 350 HP Mustang...


If I am correct in assuming this, I disagree with it. Just becasue the LS3 puts out 450 HP doesn't mean it is necessarily more expensive to make than whatever the motor Ford will be using to get 350 HP. The LS3 will be a new motor, but it is still an LS block. That means the changes will be very minor over the LS2 or even LS1. The cost of producing this motor really hasn't changed a whole lot. There is no reason they can't position an LS3 Camaro within the same price range as a Mustang Premium GT.

Just becasue the LS3 puts out 450 HP doesn't mean it is necessarily more expensive to make than whatever the motor Ford will be using to get 350 HP. The LS3 will be a new motor, but it is still an LS block. That means the changes will be very minor over the LS2 or even LS1. The cost of producing this motor really hasn't changed a whole lot. There is no reason they can't position an LS3 Camaro within the same price range as a Mustang Premium GT.Plus, historically Ford motors have always cost more than Chevies. Has that changed?

Wow. I just read 4 pages of going back and forth and it feels like I wasted that part of my life. Adding engines adds cost. 3 Engines is a LOT in one car, but is totally acceptable. 4 is starting to push it.

1)Whichever V6 gets better fuel economy. Use that one. You only need one v6. If it has "too much" power, detune it a little and make sure it uses 87 octane. 270hp-290hp should be more than enough.

2)Whichever v8 gets better fuel economy. Use that one. 370hp vs 425hp. IF the L76 gets 2-3mpg better in both city and highway, its a no-brainer. I'm sorry, but 370hp is a LOT of power for 90% of the drivers out there, and I'd bet most would rather have the mpg over the ~55hp. I know I would.

2a)Offer an aftermarket package for the v8 that gives it an exhaust/intake crap for "performance" that gives it more of a muscle car sound and feel, boosting performance and the like. Same as the LS1 SS had.

3)Then make a willy-nilly top end model for nutcases that want all the balls in the world. They dont care about fuel economy, they only care about performance.

Why is this still an issue?

Am i the only person that thinks the V6 doesn't need to have gobs of horsepower? 230 - 250 would be fine for MOST people. If you want power you buy the V8. If you want the looks and good fuel economy, you get a V6...if your concerned about power... then you get a V8. IMO 280+ hp out of a base V6 is just overkill....thats LT1 V8 territory. The V6 needs to be priced as low as possible...280+ hp V6 is just over kill and will make the car cost more then it needs to be. Remember, you need to think about the NON-enthusiasts...they will be the majority buying the V6.

Edit: Fuel economy should be the MAIN concern on the V6 IMO.

The only reason that I think the base 6 will end up at more than 250 HP is because that's where the whole market is going. The 6 in the new Accord will be 250+ and that's an ACCORD!

I agree that 250 is plenty for a 6, and that a person should buy the 8 after that, but I think that the market is going to push the V6 number up by the time the Camaro comes out.

Man, i remember back in the day thinking the 200hp 3.8L in my dads GP was one powerhouse of a V6 ;)

Am i the only person that thinks the V6 doesn't need to have gobs of horsepower? 230 - 250 would be fine for MOST people. If you want power you buy the V8. If you want the looks and good fuel economy, you get a V6...if your concerned about power... then you get a V8. IMO 280+ hp out of a base V6 is just overkill....thats LT1 V8 territory. The V6 needs to be priced as low as possible...280+ hp V6 is just over kill and will make the car cost more then it needs to be. Remember, you need to think about the NON-enthusiasts...they will be the majority buying the V6.

Edit: Fuel economy should be the MAIN concern on the V6 IMO.

I think there are many factors that go into one's decision than just that. I mean, most people probably would like the power of a V-8 but do not want to assume the added costs associated with increased insurance rates and fuel costs.

"If you want power you buy the V8. If you want the looks and good fuel economy, you get a V6...if your concerned about power... then you get a V8."

You make it sound as though they are mutually exclusive of one another. Like a person that wants power doesn't care a drop about fuel economy, which I don't think is the case. There are plenty of people who would love the power of a V-8 mixed with the cost of ownership of a V6.

With that said, I don't think a 280+ hp V6 is a good BASE V6, but I do think if they can offer a performance V6 on top of the base V6 it would be great! I mean, use the cheap to produce pushrod 3.9 V6 for the base V6 and the new 3.6L DI V6 ~300hp as the performance V6! This way you appeal both groups: those that care solely about looks and fuel economy as well as the people who want V-8 performance at a V6 cost of ownership.

Man, i remember back in the day thinking the 200hp 3.8L in my dads GP was one powerhouse of a V6 ;)

I hear that! If you would have told people back then that today V6s would be putting out 300 hp people would have thought you were crazy!

hmm...when was the lat time there were 2 V6 engines in a Camaro? Hmmm...never! It's just a bad idea. people who want more froma V6 can step up to the 5.3L V8! :D

hmm...when was the lat time there were 2 V6 engines in a Camaro? Hmmm...never! It's just a bad idea. people who want more froma V6 can step up to the 5.3L V8! :D

Actually in the mid 90's (around '96 I think) the 3.8 V6 was an option above the base V6. Though I think that was just for one model year, then the 3.8 became the base in the next model year.

Actually in the mid 90's (around '96 I think) the 3.8 V6 was an option above the base V6. Though I think that was just for one model year, then the 3.8 became the base in the next model year.

yes that was an overlap. 3800 ran laot cleaner IIRC

It wasn't really planned that way just ended up happening.

hmm...when was the lat time there were 2 V6 engines in a Camaro? Hmmm...never! It's just a bad idea. people who want more froma V6 can step up to the 5.3L V8! :D

Except thatit doesn't sound like there will be a 5.3L v8 in a 5th gen.

Give the 5th gen a 280hp v6. No one is killing themselves in the v6 Accord, and that carries only a slightly worse power to weight ratio than a hypothetical 280hp v6 Camaro does if it tips the scales in the 3700lb ballpark.

The v6 Camaro is still supposed to be a sporty car. Don't punish people who don't get the v8 to suffer having non sporty performance.

hmm...when was the lat time there were 2 V6 engines in a Camaro? Hmmm...never! It's just a bad idea. people who want more froma V6 can step up to the 5.3L V8! :D


I guess so if you are assuming there will be a 5.3L V8 even though we have been told multiple times that there will not be.

You can easily argue that they can just do away with an entry level V8 if they use a high performance V6 leaving the 300+hp V6 and then the jump to the LS3.

Eitherway it is all meaningless speculation until we hear confirmation on the engine options. Personally I don't really care because I will be taking mine with an LS3 :cool: .

The original 1967 Camaro could be ordered with the base 230 cid L6 or the optional 250 cid L6. :D

I guess so if you are assuming there will be a 5.3L V8 even though we have been told multiple times that there will not be.

You can easily argue that they can just do away with an entry level V8 if they use a high performance V6 leaving the 300+hp V6 and then the jump to the LS3.

Eitherway it is all meaningless speculation until we hear confirmation on the engine options. Personally I don't really care because I will be taking mine with an LS3 :cool: .

thats whyat the :D grin was for--being sarcastic. I am still holding out hope though. IMO, a 5.3L would get significanly better mileage then a detuend 6.2L.

We won't know until we get offical specs from GM

Wow. I just read 4 pages of going back and forth and it feels like I wasted that part of my life. Adding engines adds cost. 3 Engines is a LOT in one car, but is totally acceptable. 4 is starting to push it.

1)Whichever V6 gets better fuel economy. Use that one. You only need one v6. If it has "too much" power, detune it a little and make sure it uses 87 octane. 270hp-290hp should be more than enough.

2)Whichever v8 gets better fuel economy. Use that one. 370hp vs 425hp. IF the L76 gets 2-3mpg better in both city and highway, its a no-brainer. I'm sorry, but 370hp is a LOT of power for 90% of the drivers out there, and I'd bet most would rather have the mpg over the ~55hp. I know I would.

2a)Offer an aftermarket package for the v8 that gives it an exhaust/intake crap for "performance" that gives it more of a muscle car sound and feel, boosting performance and the like. Same as the LS1 SS had.

3)Then make a willy-nilly top end model for nutcases that want all the balls in the world. They dont care about fuel economy, they only care about performance.

Why is this still an issue?



Cost? Nah, wouldnt be that bad. The LX cars have 4 engines, 2 6's and 2 8's. Spread the cost not only with Camaro, but ALL types of Zeta cars, and you are good.
If Chrysler can do it, GM can do it.

Cost? Nah, wouldnt be that bad. The LX cars have 4 engines, 2 6's and 2 8's. Spread the cost not only with Camaro, but ALL types of Zeta cars, and you are good.
If Chrysler can do it, GM can do it.

I have no problem with 2 6s and 2 8s for a Camaro, although I know that is not what you are implying. Wasn't that GM's initial plan for the Camaro? An engine lineup that looked something like:

3.9 OHV v6
3.6 DOHC v6
6.2 OHV v8
6.2 OHV v8 (blown possibly?)

It was my understanding from reading these boards that the only difference in the lineup now is that the 3.9 is dropped.

hmm...when was the lat time there were 2 V6 engines in a Camaro? Hmmm...never! It's just a bad idea. people who want more froma V6 can step up to the 5.3L V8! :D

...don't forget the 1989 turbo TA V6:D
Why does the Camaro need the outdated 3.9L V6 with low hp when the new 3.6L V6 has better mpg and much more HP? That's all we need, one V6...nothing else makes sense. Now that that is settled....

...let's discuss the V-8 options. The 3.5L V-8 makes sense as a mid-powered car, but for a typical sedan or coupe. Does it really fit into Camaro? I think the base V8 needs to be the LS3 than the 'top dog' is some variation of that or whatever. A typical copue needs a mid hp V8 like teh L76, but Camaro embodies the essance of pony car and that should show in the engine choices.

Maybe GM feels need for a mid-power V8, that's fine but I see no need for 2 V6s.

Maybe GM feels need for a mid-power V8, that's fine but I see no need for 2 V6s.

If there is an entry level V8 like the L76, then i agree that there is no need for 2 V6's since the entry level V6 will have at the minimum 250hp. However, there is a huge gap in between 250 hp and 420hp, so there needs to be something. If they offer the LS3 as the only V8 but in different configurations, then I think the DI 3.6L V6 would fit nicely at about 300hp. That will help to satisfy those that want more hp than the base V6 but do not want the added cost of ownership associated with the V8 (fuel, insurance, etc).

I can see a high performance V6 selling much better than a lower performance V8 to be honest. I think Gm would be better off going with 2 V6s and the LS3.

Cost? Nah, wouldnt be that bad. The LX cars have 4 engines, 2 6's and 2 8's. Spread the cost not only with Camaro, but ALL types of Zeta cars, and you are good.
If Chrysler can do it, GM can do it.

Isnt Chrysler losing money?

Our Camaro will be primarily for the wife. She wants a V8, but is on record as saying that 425hp is too much car for her. We would be perfectly happy w/ an entry level V8 w/ LS1 level power, even if it cost more or less the same as the 425hp motor.

The June issue of Chevy High Performance states their scources in GM say two v6s and a few v8s. A v8 based on LS3 with L92 heads between 400-450 hp and talk of a supercharged 550 hp Z28 with roots style blower. A few V8s could mean 2 or 3.

From what I gather on here, that was the old plan. It sounds like the new plan is pretty much the same, except that the lower performing v6 was dropped from the potential lineup. Unless someone has heard otherwise?

From what I gather on here, that was the old plan. It sounds like the new plan is pretty much the same, except that the lower performing v6 was dropped from the potential lineup. Unless someone has heard otherwise?

Old plan, new plan? What are you referring to?

As for the L76, I would think that it isn't much more expensive to produce than an LS3 as they are based off of the same block architecture, are they not?

It just seems to me that if they offer both, then the LS3 will end up costing more just becasue of the increased horsepower gains and not because it is actually more expensive to produce. The only way i would be able to justify the price increase is if it came with other extras like larger brakes, better suspension, etc...

Old plan, new plan? What are you referring to?


View the post above mine. That is what I was referring to as the old plan. The new plan seems to be minus the low output v6.

Our Camaro will be primarily for the wife. She wants a V8, but is on record as saying that 425hp is too much car for her. We would be perfectly happy w/ an entry level V8 w/ LS1 level power, even if it cost more or less the same as the 425hp motor.

Yeah, but you know as well as I do that falls on deaf ears at GM, despite some of us screaming for a lo-po base V8 exactly for those kinds of customers like your wife.

Yeah, but you know as well as I do that falls on deaf ears at GM, despite some of us screaming for a lo-po base V8 exactly for those kinds of customers like your wife.

I bet GM makes more sales than it loses with a 425hp v8 under or around 30 large. Most people's wives don't even know what horsepower is. No one is making anyone put there foot to the floor when they drive, either.

I never said a lo-po v8 INSTEAD of the LS3....give customers MORE choice.

I never said a lo-po v8 INSTEAD of the LS3....give customers MORE choice.

If the v6 is going to be coming in at around 300hp, what is the point of a 3rd low power v8? What is it going to be, a little over 300hp? Maybe 350? Why would someone think 400hp is too much, but conclude 350hp is just right? I don't think that scenario makes a whole lot of sense.

Since when does buying a car like this make sense? I think you can throw logic out the window, as buying a Camaro (or any muscle/pony/performance/sports/sporty) car has nothing to do with sense and everything to do with emotion.

Some people won't buy a V6, period. You're going to lose sales from people that want the V8 sounds, feel, and mistique, but don't want insane HP levels.

V6's aren't replacements for V8s...they never have and never will be. What would happen to sales if we replaced the LS3 with a 430hp V6? You think they'd drop?

I think you are overreacting to the hp levels. Maybe it will cost some sales, but my bet is that those potential lost buyers are going to be very small in number. You can get a freakin Escalade with 400hp, and that doesn't seem to be scaring anyone away from them. I know, the Escalade is a lot heavier, but most people don't know what a power to weight ratio is, they just look at hp.

I agree. If you are in the market for a 300+ HP V8, you are looking because you want a fast car with lots of power. The whole, "430 hp is too much, but 350 is just right" just does not make sense.

If there would be a serious cost difference either directly with the MSRP or indirectly with insurance and fuel, then I can see the argument for opting into a lower HP car, but all things being roughly equal, why would you ever say "no thanks, I don't want the extra HP"? Maybe it is just me, but i don't get it.

Once people actually drive these new V6 engines their attitudes will change. I love the performance of my 3.6 in my new CTS...and the 19 mpg it gets even when I beat on it is easy to take too. I would imagine that the new version of it at 3.8 and 300 HP will only make things better. Normally I would agree that you need a lower performance V8 in the lineup....but driving this new CTS has changed my opinion on that. If anything....they might need a lower performance/higher gas milage V6 in the lineup for granny (as if she's gonna buy a camaro anyhow though) or for the folks that wanna buy one for their kid and not have him wreck their insurance rates with the speeding tickets.

Since when does buying a car like this make sense? I think you can throw logic out the window, as buying a Camaro (or any muscle/pony/performance/sports/sporty) car has nothing to do with sense and everything to do with emotion.

Some people won't buy a V6, period. You're going to lose sales from people that want the V8 sounds, feel, and mistique, but don't want insane HP levels.

V6's aren't replacements for V8s...they never have and never will be. What would happen to sales if we replaced the LS3 with a 430hp V6? You think they'd drop?



I agree. Some people seem to fear any hp figure of 400 or more, be it for insurance purposes, wifes disaproval, or fuel economy.

What ever the case i think somebody should do a pole on this topic just to get an idea of how many people do want a midlevel v8 for just under 400 hp.

No sence in doing a poll on a site like this. When people are spending thousands of dollars on heads to get 20-30hp gain, Im sure that most people here will neglect the mid level V8 and go for the gold...and then pour thousands of dollas into making it faster.
GOD I LOVE THIS HOBBY!

edit: Anyway, you have to look at history and what will gain total sales. Not EVERYONE wants a 400+hp V8 waking up the neighborhood. A mild V8 that has the power to perform and gain the sales of people who just want that. The baby boomers who want the power to relive the hay day, but not all that will kill there 17 year old kid.

edit: Anyway, you have to look at history and what will gain total sales. Not EVERYONE wants a 400+hp V8 waking up the neighborhood. A mild V8 that has the power to perform and gain the sales of people who just want that. The baby boomers who want the power to relive the hay day, but not all that will kill there 17 year old kid.I think all you have to do is look at the sales of a certain "Pony Car". The 4th gen blew the doors off it's competition, but this didn't save it. GM needs to include a drivetrain that will appeal to the masses, not just the high end enthusiasts.

Everyone seems to believe on here that hp had something to do with the death of the 4th gen. They were all rated over 305hp, and some people seem to suggest that that much power turned off some people, so why wouldn't a low end v8 in the 5th gen with just over 300hp be just as much of a turnoff? And now the 300hp Mustang GT is selling like hotcakes.

The powertrains are going to sell some of the cars, but they aren't going to sell it to the masses. A low end v8 isn't going to win over the public. The car itself will.

Everybody agrees on a V6 around 285 hp for around $22k, right?



No, we don't all agree on this. Not when you can get a V6 Mustang base for well under $20k. I am with Al. If all Chevy offers for a V8 is a 425 hp, Camaro is doomed. That number is either too much or not enough - depending on who you are. If that's all I can get from the Camaro, I'll hang on to my Vette without hesitation. On the other side of the coin, 425 hp is too much for most people - especially considering the fact GM will likely price such a V8 in the lower $30s.

They need a 300hp version, a 400hp version and a 500hp version. That oughtta cover the bases nicely.

No, we don't all agree on this. Not when you can get a V6 Mustang base for well under $20k. I am with Al. If all Chevy offers for a V8 is a 425 hp, Camaro is doomed. That number is either too much or not enough - depending on who you are. If that's all I can get from the Camaro, I'll hang on to my Vette without hesitation. On the other side of the coin, 425 hp is too much for most people - especially considering the fact GM will likely price such a V8 in the lower $30s.

They need a 300hp version, a 400hp version and a 500hp version. That oughtta cover the bases nicely.

Do you mean three v8s or a 300hp v6 and the other two being v8s?

Either way I do agree that there should be a midlevel v8 for those who want a v8 Camaro they can afford.

without reading this whole thread:
it would really be no different than the 3rd gens
v6's in some
305s in some
350s in others
they had a v6, mid level v8, and performance v8, so i think it would be ok to do it with the new camaros too, as long as they had different badges on them, who cares?