SS/Z28/ZL1 poll

There has been some "ZL1" discussion on other threads. I believe the ZL1 name could be hung on an upgraded SS and used as a halo car to bring fame and sales to the Camaro line, but I would like to know what you faithful think.

Is the ZL1 a:

1. SS option package with a 427 and 22" chrome rims
2. Z28 option package with a 427 and lightweight rims
3. Paint and tape option on an SS or Z28?
4. A stripped "uber" Z28?
5. Some sort of distinct model with attributes all it's own

1. SS option package with a 427 and 22" chrome rims
or 5. Some sort of distinct model with attributes all it's own

I voted for 5, it is something that should be unique and of its own nameplate, not an add-on to the SS model.

i like what he said ^

There has been some "ZL1" discussion on other threads. I believe the ZL1 name could be hung on an upgraded SS and used as a halo car to bring fame and sales to the Camaro line, but I would like to know what you faithful think.

Is the ZL1 a:

1. SS option package with a 427 and 22" chrome rims
2. Z28 option package with a 427 and lightweight rims
3. Paint and tape option on an SS or Z28?
4. A stripped "uber" Z28?
5. Some sort of distinct model with attributes all it's own

2 questions.

1. Why 22" rims?

* Doesn't do anything for performance.

* Not good for potholes, curbs, etc...


2. Why does Camaro need a ZL1 to bring fame & sales?

* Camaro is one of the top 5 automotive known names in the US.

*The only people who know what ZL1 is are people who are already Camaro enthusiasts. People who aren't Camaro enthusiasts know what a Z28 is and that SS means a sportier or performance model Chevrolet.

* The "Higher the performance, the Higher the sales numbers" myth went out the window in 1998 when the 4th gen Camaro got the LS1 and still saw sales head into the toilet at the same time Mustangs increased.

* Camaro NEEDS to sell larger numbers of REGULAR models to see sales gains and survive. 4th gen Camaro SS sales actually increased over it's life, and there certainly was no shortage of people who knew Camaros were quick and fast.


I agree with the idea of various short run Camaros to keep intrest alive in the car, the way Ford is doing with Mustang and Chrysler is doing with their Ram trucks. But realistically, what we are talking about are cars that emphasize cosmetics over ridiculously expensive Z06 engines, with maybe a tune or a power adder that might add no more than a few thousand dollars to the price of making the car.

I don't think making an expensive, uberCamaro is the answer. I also think Ford is really streaching things when they sent their latest SVT Mustang to the $40K mark.

1. Why 22" rims?


I'm not really fixated on dubba-dubba's, I'm just throwing them out there as an idea starter.



2. Why does Camaro need a ZL1 to bring fame & sales?

*The only people who know what ZL1 is are people who are already Camaro enthusiasts. People who aren't Camaro enthusiasts know what a Z28 is and that SS means a sportier or performance model Chevrolet.

I don't think making an expensive, uberCamaro is the answer. I also think Ford is really streaching things when they sent their latest SVT Mustang to the $40K mark.

I disagree with the second paragraph quoted, and the last paragraph quoted is where I think you're making the mistake. I think Ford is going to sell a lot og GT500's, and I think they're going to generate a lot of V6 and V8 sales, plus a lot of parts and kit sales simply by having the GT500 out there.

You've probably seen several of my posts, so you're probably aware of my focus, but I'll re-iterate here for people who might not "know" me. My overriding concern is that GM leverage it's strengths and minimize it's weaknesses in order to sell a huge number of these cars. Strengths like modular platforms and powertrains. Weaknesses like bad corporate image and product dilution.

I believe (and I post based on that belief) that if GM the corporation, and not just Camaro the model, is going to survive they have to use cars like our favorite to attract AND RETAIN new buyers.

That means (in MY mind) the Camaro cannot simply recreate 1969 or 1977 or 1985 in a new wrapper. In MY mind, what it means is that GM must do new things. Eventually, they have to stop making decisions based on what fanatics like us want.

And please- make no mistake- I AM a fanatic. I have owned Camaro's in the past, I buy Chevy's exclusively and recommend to my family that they buy GM, and I have already slept on the couch enough that the argument about the 2010 Camaro is over and there will be one in the driveway.

But... I think that GM could take the ZL1 and use it to market the brand. You're right- everyone in the world knows what a Z28 or SS should be and almost no one but us knows what a ZL1 is.

To me, that means that GM could take the ZL1 name and make it a limited production... something. A car that is desireable to Hollywood. A car that Honda driving dorks desire owning. A car that runs like a 'vette, but seats 4. A car that is "unique". A car that drives people to the showroom, causes them to buy a V6 or base V8, and if those cars are good enough turns them into repeat GM buyers.

A car that defines the "essence" of Camaro, and might even set the template for "Musclecar".

The bottom line is that IN MY MIND, GM will eventually have to do something different in order to succeed, and this would be a good "something different". In my mind, success is defined as attracting and retining new buyers, and GM won't do that by catering to those of us who are already buyers.

Remember- doing the same thing every time but expecting a different result is the definition of insanity.

I think a lot of this super-Camaro talk is because of the GT500, or past supercharged Cobra. Yes they are faster cars. But I don't see the need to compete in that range. Chevy has always had the Vette so the Camaro doesn't need to be the fastest car. I suppose you could say Ford has the GT but the price and the availability of that keeps it out of this.
I think if we get a Z28 and SS with some good V8 power and styling unique to each in a price range most of us can afford that will be enough.

Besides I have always thought that building a super vehicle of any model is something that companies do when they are in good financial status. GM is not and I think funds spent on a super Camaro should be spent elseware. If GM turns this around and makes money in a few years then hey build all the ZL1's or supercharged Z06's you want. But to me right now they need help in more profit producing areas.

2. Why does Camaro need a ZL1 to bring fame & sales?

* Camaro is one of the top 5 automotive known names in the US.

*The only people who know what ZL1 is are people who are already Camaro enthusiasts. People who aren't Camaro enthusiasts know what a Z28 is and that SS means a sportier or performance model Chevrolet.

* The "Higher the performance, the Higher the sales numbers" myth went out the window in 1998 when the 4th gen Camaro got the LS1 and still saw sales head into the toilet at the same time Mustangs increased.

* Camaro NEEDS to sell larger numbers of REGULAR models to see sales gains and survive. 4th gen Camaro SS sales actually increased over it's life, and there certainly was no shortage of people who knew Camaros were quick and fast.


I agree with the idea of various short run Camaros to keep intrest alive in the car, the way Ford is doing with Mustang and Chrysler is doing with their Ram trucks. But realistically, what we are talking about are cars that emphasize cosmetics over ridiculously expensive Z06 engines, with maybe a tune or a power adder that might add no more than a few thousand dollars to the price of making the car.

I don't think making an expensive, uberCamaro is the answer. I also think Ford is really streaching things when they sent their latest SVT Mustang to the $40K mark.

VERY excellent points. Just strange after the arguement that Camaro needs to be diverse and have multiple models. I think Camaro absoloutely needs a Z06 equivelent. If that car is the Z28 and it should be, then I still think it would be neat to have a ZL1 572 big block. If nothing else a couple of GM cars just to show off what both the biggest big block and Camaro can do at shows at drag races across the country.

I still think it's possible for Corvette and Camaro to co-exist, each being equally successful in their own regards. The Camaro will never BE a Corvette, or offer quite the same "total experience" as the Corvette offers, so there should be no worry of "stepping on Corvette's toes".

That being said, I don't see anything (financially or otherwise) wrong with offering a limited production (couple? few? hundred? thousand?? :shrug: ) "top-of-the-line-take-no-prisoners-beats-all-hands-down" type of Camaro :thumb:. I will even "concede" to the notion that since the Corvette is the "king" of the track, then the Camaro should be "king" of the 1/4 mile. Thus, build it like a "suped up" SS ... maybe not in terms of frills or options, but give it the "grand-daddy" of powerplants ... whether that's a 427/LS7-derivative, or whatever. Given the current performance of both the Z06 and the GT500, the "ZL-1" Camaro should run much closer to the capabilities of the Z06 in the 1/4 mile ..... absolutely embarass the GT500 ;).

Is that really such a far-fetched, impractical, non-feasible idea?? :shrug: I don't think so. Its price will be a premium, which will offset most of the extra cost of development, and it should hold the same sort of "supercar" fascination as cars like the Z06 / GT500 / Viper / etc., all do :yes:. Enthusiast cars like these inspire passion and dreams ... give the world something (a Camaro) to dream about :cz28:.

Thank you Pete. I wish I could have phrased it that well.

So... what he said.

1. SS option package with a 427 and 22" chrome rims
2. Z28 option package with a 427 and lightweight rims
3. Paint and tape option on an SS or Z28?
4. A stripped "uber" Z28?
5. Some sort of distinct model with attributes all it's own

Tell us what the "SS option package" and the "Z28 option package" is so that we know where we're starting.

I'd bet we won't need a ZL1 to cover the GT500. :D

I think a lot of this super-Camaro talk is because of the GT500, or past supercharged Cobra. .

Also, the GT500 will be concluding it's production run, just as the first Camaros start going down the line.

I'd be happy if it had a 396 LSx, w/weight reduction patterned after the Z06, but maybe not as extreme...or adding a SuperCharger!

With the Cobra pushing 500hp(+-), and the SRT8 Challenger over 450, I'd think a special, all buisness Camaro should be considered..

Also, the GT500 will be concluding it's production run, just as the first Camaros start going down the line.But wouldn't you find it disturbing if "this year's top Camaro" was slower than "last year's top Mustang"? :p

But wouldn't you find it disturbing if "this year's top Camaro" was slower than "last year's top Mustang"? :p

that will never ever happen..:cry: GM please dont let that happen

But wouldn't you find it disturbing if "this year's top Camaro" was slower than "last year's top Mustang"? :p


Yeah, I guess. But I don't think that would be the case anyway.

I consider the GT500 powertrain to be a compromised package. Sure, it puts out respectable power - but at what cost in weight, mass, complexity and expense? And in the end the 400 hp Z51 C6 still makes it it's biotch.

not to mention the 20k dealer markup :confused:

A very limited production top of the line model with whatever engine is going into the Corvette SS (supercharged 6.2L w/ 600+ hp.) would make a good ZL1. You wouldn't be stepping on the Corvette's toes perfromance-wise with the difference in weight, size, materials, etc. I could see a business case here as long as it was kept to a very limited number of cars. Sure they're not going to make any money on the car itself but the interest generated by a car like that would definately draw in more potential buyers.

I consider the GT500 powertrain to be a compromised package. Sure, it puts out respectable power - but at what cost in weight, mass, complexity and expense? And in the end the 400 hp Z51 C6 still makes it it's biotch.But, I want the top Camaro to make it it's biotch. :D

My preference would be for GM to keep the number of option packages between specific models to a minimum and let the dealer/customer do the supplemental options. Simplicity is good, it is good for profitability, it is good for marketing, and it leaves minimal confusion.

For example let your base V6, performance V6, and Z28 come standard with package A (standard) with a medium range of frills and then have package B (RS) as your all option upgrade. If there are only selected features from the RS package that you want to add to package 1, then the dealer can add it upon request or you could do it yourself.

Then the uber camaro (ZL1 or maybe something new) we are all hoping for, later on, could come in two forms 1) PERFORMANCE - stripped down delete option (dragstrip or road track, whichever is decided upon, maybe have a setup for each) and 2) LUXURY PERFORMANCE - it’s own unique high-end option package, package C, e.g. SS that is better than your RS package

And as a disclaimer, I personally don’t mind either way if the Z28 and SS nomenclature is switched around from what I presented. I only ask that before you rip me a new one, that you understand the argument for the options and leveling is the point I am trying to get across and not the name of the package or name of the level.

In review, in my opinion, I would advocate the following, tiers and packages:

Starting Year 1
Base V6 – Package A (Standard) or Package B (RS)
Performance V6 – Package A (Standard) or Package B (RS)
Z28 – Package A (Standard) or Package B (RS)

Starting Year 3 or 4
Uber Camaro (ZL-1 or a new name) – Delete Option Package (Stripper) or Package C (SS)

Good reasoning. I'm dreading the flame posts, but I think you have something here.

For example let your base V6, performance V6, and Z28 come standard with package A (standard) with a medium range of frills and then have package B (RS) as your all option upgrade. If there are only selected features from the RS package that you want to add to package 1, then the dealer can add it upon request or you could do it yourself.

I agree. I made a similar comment on another thread. I was optioning out the Corvette a few days ago and one thing I really didn't like was that you have your choice of 3 option packages, but if you only want one option in the package, you are SOL becasue you have to get the entire package. For example, if I were to get a Vette I would want the base 1LT package, but I also want the HUD which is only available in the 3LT package at a cost of $5000 over the 1LT.

If I am going to special order a car, I should be able to get it exactly how I want.

I agree. I made a similar comment on another thread. I was optioning out the Corvette a few days ago and one thing I really didn't like was that you have your choice of 3 option packages, but if you only want one option in the package, you are SOL becasue you have to get the entire package. For example, if I were to get a Vette I would want the base 1LT package, but I also want the HUD which is only available in the 3LT package at a cost of $5000 over the 1LT.

If I am going to special order a car, I should be able to get it exactly how I want.

I had been considering people's comments from various threads over the past few days and decided to put it here, because I was too lazy to go find the other threads. It is good to know that my opinion on a consensus strategy is close to what others envisioned. Although, I'm sure it won't be able to address everyone's preferences.

I have to say that I have learned a lot about the history of Camaro and the character of its enthusiasts over the past year from this site. (I signed up long after I had been reading the threads.) :cz28:

What makes you think that GM is going to be able to produce more LS7s for the Camaro. It can barely produce enough for the Z06. I highly doubt that GM will steal any thunder from the Z06 by putting the LS7 in any other vehicle. On top of that I doubt that the LS7 will be around in 2009 anyway. Keep in mind that this car will die if it strays much above $500 more than the equivalent mustangs price. It will have to be sold at a comparable price to the mustang. Sure in the first year or so when all the Camaro faithful buy theirs the car will sell. But it has to make it on its own after the initial rush. I do not want to see this car die again. The 2 door sport coup market is not as large as all that have been posting here think it is. Rational thought needs to return here. The long list of options will make it more expensive to produce. Beleive me GM knows how they will market this car to the public and they have tons of bean counters working this as we speak.

I agree. I made a similar comment on another thread. I was optioning out the Corvette a few days ago and one thing I really didn't like was that you have your choice of 3 option packages, but if you only want one option in the package, you are SOL becasue you have to get the entire package. For example, if I were to get a Vette I would want the base 1LT package, but I also want the HUD which is only available in the 3LT package at a cost of $5000 over the 1LT.

If I am going to special order a car, I should be able to get it exactly how I want.

They build them in option groups because it is easier to build and it makes the car less expensive to build. The long list of options complicates production and esculates cost. The C5 Corvette from 1997 -2000 could be ordered hundred different ways. In 2001 GM went to the 3 option groups to make the car less expensive and easier to produce. FYI for ya... HUD is highly over rated anyway. I'd rather have a good tach that does not lag behind engine speed in stead. The Camaro is not going to be a Corvette clone. Is has its own identity.

PS The 3LT option group is $4945 on the MSRP side. If I were specing out a new Vette it would be a 2LT (the base 1LT seats suck!!) with the Z51 Performance Handling Package and nothing else. All the rest of that fluff is dead weight.

What makes you think that GM is going to be able to produce more LS7s for the Camaro. It can barely produce enough for the Z06. I highly doubt that GM will steal any thunder from the Z06 by putting the LS7 in any other vehicle. On top of that I doubt that the LS7 will be around in 2009 anyway. Keep in mind that this car will die if it strays much above $500 more than the equivalent mustangs price. It will have to be sold at a comparable price to the mustang. Sure in the first year or so when all the Camaro faithful buy theirs the car will sell. But it has to make it on its own after the initial rush. I do not want to see this car die again. The 2 door sport coup market is not as large as all that have been posting here think it is. Rational thought needs to return here. The long list of options will make it more expensive to produce. Beleive me GM knows how they will market this car to the public and they have tons of bean counters working this as we speak.

There is a video floating around on the internet where a GM representative said they are keeping the Z06 supply low intentionally. That does not necessarily preclude making more (it won't be LS7 at that time the Camaro comes out) engines for the Camaro.

The Camaro won't be stealing any thunder from the Corvette with the same engine. The weight and performance won't even be close.

Option #5