Car and Driver rips on new Camry

Apparently Car and Driver does not share Motor Trends opinion that the Camry is the best new car made, they rated it 5th out of 6 in a new comparison (February issue) and placed it behind the Aura, Kia Optima, Altima and Accord. They managed to swing off of the Accords nuts just like Motor Trend did with the Camry. I just found it hilarious when I read this:

Its steering wheel passed through our hands without leaving an impression. Its handling—rolling, floppy, understeer always ready to douse any rising red mist—elicits no emotion other than jejune boredom. It is A to B boiled down to ones and zeros.
Toyota sedans have never throbbed with driving passion, but at least they could boast unimpeachable quality. This Camry was impeachable. A few trim pieces hung loose. Some dash panels didn’t match up. The rear seat armrest cup holder fell out with only the slightest persuasion, leaving behind a ragged hole in the fabric. If fit and finish ceases to be Toyota’s obsession, what will define the company’s products? We shudder to imagine.

I don't care what anybody says. C&D calls 'em like they see 'em.

i cant believe they placed a Kia above the Aura

Ha ha, keep it up C&D!! :D

...now GM, just don't Funk things up!! :death:

Apparently Car and Driver does not share Motor Trends opinion that the Camry is the best new car made, they rated it 5th out of 6 in a new comparison (February issue) and placed it behind the Aura, Kia Optima, Altima and Accord. They managed to swing off of the Accords nuts just like Motor Trend did with the Camry. I just found it hilarious when I read this:

MT was looking at a top-of-the-line V6 model versus the garden variety 4cyl version that C&D tested. That could account for some of the difference in outcome.

Last I heard 4 cyls made up something like 80% of the market in these cars. I think in a year, the new Malibu with a 4 cyl would make a better comparison to the rest of these.

I thought media are biased??

I have to say I don't agree with the Camry being car of the year either, but I also realized C&D has a very specific preference in cars - the more it drives like a BMW, the better... period. Maybe a few extra credit points assigned for other 'small' factors like fit and finish, value in pricing, equipment/features, ride quality... heck even acceleration isn't that big of a deal as long as it's decent. If the chassis, suspension, steering, and brakes aren't setup for a road race... they hate it.

Granted I suppose there's nothing wrong with that so long as you understand they don't have much business comparing family sedans with that kind of approach, unless of course they're comparing them for the guy who has a family and can't afford a BMW.:p

I thought media are biased??

Come on now... they're only biased when they say things that the people on this forum don't like to hear.:p

I thought media are biased??
Yes, they are obviously pro-KIA biased. ;)

I have to say I don't agree with the Camry being car of the year either, but I also realized C&D has a very specific preference in cars - the more it drives like a BMW, the better... period. Maybe a few extra credit points assigned for other 'small' factors like fit and finish, value in pricing, equipment/features, ride quality... heck even acceleration isn't that big of a deal as long as it's decent. If the chassis, suspension, steering, and brakes aren't setup for a road race... they hate it.

Actually, the BMW M5 came in 3rd out of 3 in the same issue. And they don't actually like race-car rides. I'd say that they like cars with a decent ride and sharp handling. They do make allowances for the market, but even with family cars, they like a sportier drive.


Granted I suppose there's nothing wrong with that so long as you understand they don't have much business comparing family sedans with that kind of approach, unless of course they're comparing them for the guy who has a family and can't afford a BMW.:p



Come on now... they're only biased when they say things that the people on this forum don't like to hear.:p

On the vtec.net forums, C&D was accused of an anti-Honda bias, if you can believe it, because C&D complained about torque steer on the 6 speed Acura TL. Of course, the Acura TSX and Accord had recently garnered spots on the 10-best list, and C&D was one of the few magazines to give a rave review to the S2000 (Autocar in the UK didn't like the S2000 at all). Go figure.

I agree with Charlie about Car & Driver. They do call 'em like they see 'em. Threxx also strikes C&D head on with the observation that the more a car drives like a BMW, the better.

A couple of examples. They slammed the '94 Impala SS because they didn't know who'd buy it, and assumed that older NASCAR types would be the only ones intrested in it. In retrospect, the car didn't have the Euro-sophistication, and in a world obsessed with FWD, the car really didn't make sense. Another example is the CTS. I saw it as a BMW level Cadillac, and was appalled when they didn't give it better reviews. Ditto the STS. Today, I realize these 2 Caddys aren't BMW level, but like C&D claimed, it's huge steps for Cadillac, GM, and American cars. and I gotta agree now.

But C&D is fully capable of some complete screwups and blantantly clear bias.

They loved the GTO in it's 1st article. Then they turned around and slammed it without mercy on their TV show. Then mimicking Bob Lutz's famous term, C&D created a "Fun Factor" scoring catagory and used it to give the new Mustang a win over the vastly quicker and euro-quality GTO (intrestingly after a Bob Lutz ripped into car magazines by threatening to withdraw advertizing for unfair reports). Also came up with an article about how they easily twisted a GTO during an unauthorized race in Neveda and had to take it to a frame shop to fix it which is the least believable story I've ever read in a legitimate car magazine (the goat was a loaner from GM, who would probally have taken it back to fix, also anyone whose familiar with the GTO and and all previous edition Australian Omega "V" cars know the things structurally are tanks..... the GTO has oil pan skidplates for God sakes!)

If a car like the Camary is getting slammed by Car & Driver (after years of winning or coming 2nd behind Honda in just about every comparison thrown at it) it's worth taking notice.

Either Camry has dropped badly in quality, American cars have caught up and passed it in quality..... or someone at Toyota pissed in Car & Driver's corn flakes that morning.

or C+D dont know what they are talking about..

I don't care whether a magazine cans a GM car or a Toyota for that matter... I don't place a lot of faith in what a lot of them say IFF what they say is subjective and that subjectiveness is used to arrive at a conclusion.

Drive the car yourself. If it suits your wants and needs and you believe it's good value, buy it! That's the formula I use! ;)

Having not yet sat in an Aura, I cannot comment on C&D's mark down due to the interior quality (but knowing GM, it's proably a fair assessment), but stating the other key low point to be getting dirty hands when you open the trunk had to be one of the most half-a55ed excuses to slide a car down in the standings I've ever read.

I don't care whether a magazine cans a GM car or a Toyota for that matter... I don't place a lot of faith in what a lot of them say IFF what they say is subjective and that subjectiveness is used to arrive at a conclusion.

Drive the car yourself. If it suits your wants and needs and you believe it's good value, buy it! That's the formula I use! ;)
^ ^ agreed :thumb:.

I like "numbers". Facts. Real information, that can be tested under indentical conditions. Weight, power, braking performance, turning (lateral g's) performance, "as tested" fuel economy (not just what the OEM "claims"). That stuff you can compare. It's apples to apples.

"Subjective" comparisons are a waste of time. They'll only help to confirm your already preconceived beliefs that "Toyota sedans ... boast unimpeachable quality" or "another sorry attempt by one of the Big 3".

And like Guy pointed out, their "subjective" opinions about a car could have more to do with who's been naughty or nice than anything to do with the actual car :rolleyes:.

but stating the other key low point to be getting dirty hands when you open the trunk had to be one of the most half-a55ed excuses to slide a car down in the standings I've ever read.

Not really; creating a proper trunk is one of the easiest and basic things to do and GM did not do it for some reason. I would be extremely annoyed at something so basic being wrong on a car, too.

That being said, the test was spot on.

As for Motor Trend, I would have given the COTY to the Honda Fit. I think that car is going to make more of an impact on car design and future models in general than the Camry. A bargain car that is a lot of fun to drive that comes with an enormity of stuff for the price (5-speed auto with paddle shifter, fyi), all the little necessities (ABS, Power stuff) for a bargain price that can hold a lot of stuff that gets gas mileage comparable to hybrids. Moreover, it is a bargain-based compact that can not only pass for a "normal" car (the Aveo, Yaris and Versa cannot if you ask me having driven them all), but is in fact better than most cars in the next class up!

Automakers are going to try to copy this car more than the Camry since this is a relatively new segment in the US and they have all been trying to copy the Camry for a decade; nothing new there.

I don't think the Fit, or that whole class of cars, is really a new thing. Cars keep getting bigger, to the point where today's Civic is probably about the same size as an Accord of the '80s. I've not compared the dimensions, but just looking at them, and knowing how each car grows a bit in wheelbase/length/width/height with each redesign, I'd bet it is the case. The Accord has gone from a compact/small midsize four door sedan (with 4cyl power only) to a large midsize, 240 hp V6 powered family hauler. The Civic has grown as well. In my eyes, the whole "B-Car" class is a big joke in that it isn't really anything new. It is simply bringing back the idea of a subcompact car. Just because something is called a Civic doesn't mean it is the same actual size of car as the old school, tiny Civics of the '70s and '80s. Same with the Yaris. It is probably not much smaller (if at all) than the Corolla a couple of gens back.

:shrug:

There was a tall Civic wagon in the '80s long before the Fit ever came to be. To me, the Fit, Aveo, Yaris, and Versa or more or less the Civics, Chevettes, Corollas, and Sentras of 15+ years ago, as those cars keep getting more and more bloated...

Yeah the fit isn't a new class of car - it's just the manufacturers enhance hype and sales as well as keep pushing loyal buyers upscale a bit at a time if they make the same models bigger, better, more powerful, and more expensive every generation.

They've just done it so much that they all seemed to have left a gap at the bottom of the scale.

Yeah the fit isn't a new class of car - it's just the manufacturers enhance hype and sales as well as keep pushing loyal buyers upscale a bit at a time if they make the same models bigger, better, more powerful, and more expensive every generation.

They've just done it so much that they all seemed to have left a gap at the bottom of the scale.Yep. I love how the media keeps calling them "B" cars or "microcars" like it is some cool new trend straight from Japan...

When we start getting the true microcars, like the Smart and some of those other 600cc-1000cc tiny things that are popular in Japan, THAT would be something more or less new to this market, at least in the modern era.

I actually looked up some numbers, and I didn't even have to go back to the '80s Accord. The new Civic Si is arguably as big as the '94 Accord (except in overall length).

1994 Accord:

WB = 106.9
L = 184.0
W = 70.1
H = 54.7
Wgt = 2877 (LX Sedan, 3009 for EX)
Trk = 59.6 F / 59.1 R

2007 Civic Sedan
WB = 106.3
L = 176.7
W = 69.0
H = 56.5
Wgt = 2738 (EX manual), 2807 (EX Auto), 2945 (Si manual)
Trk = 59.0 F / 60.2 R

Looking back against a previous gen Accord, in 1988:

WB = 102.4
L = 174.8
W = 66.7
H = 52.6
Wgt = 2579 (LX sedan), 2668 (LXi sedan)
Trk = 58.3 F / 58.1 R

:blah:

So the new Civic is basically the same size as the 1994 Accord, and significantly bigger than the 1988 Accord. I bet you'd find that the Fit is pretty close in most dimensions (except weight!) to 1988 or 1995 Civic...

My brother-in-law actually put a deposit down on a new Camry Hybrid. Toyota jerked him around about the ship date for weeks on end. The car finally came in and I must say the exterior is much better than the previous generation (the car he currently owns) but the inside was pretty crappy actually. I too saw the misaligned trim pieces and it the materials were not worthy of being in a $33k car. Anyway, he ended up buying a fully loaded pre-owned 05 CTS. I had a little something to do with that :)

My brother-in-law actually put a deposit down on a new Camry Hybrid. Toyota jerked him around about the ship date for weeks on end. The car finally came in and I must say the exterior is much better than the previous generation (the car he currently owns) but the inside was pretty crappy actually. I too saw the misaligned trim pieces and it the materials were not worthy of being in a $33k car. Anyway, he ended up buying a fully loaded pre-owned 05 CTS. I had a little something to do with that :):cool:

Not exactly the same type of car (boring, slow but economical fwd family hauler vs. not-so-boring, quick and fun to drive but not quite as fuel efficient rwd near lux / sport sedan...), but cool nonetheless.

Hope he enjoys it!!

The Fit reminds me of the late 80's CRX, certainly nothing new.

:cool:

Not exactly the same type of car (boring, slow but economical fwd family hauler vs. not-so-boring, quick and fun to drive but not quite as fuel efficient rwd near lux / sport sedan...), but cool nonetheless.

Hope he enjoys it!!

He loves it so far. He picked it up three days before their honey moon to Mexico so it is sitting in the garage right now :( I am sorry, I just could not let a 26 year old guy get a Camry. :)

I wonder how the fit and finish on the Kentucky-built Camry is compared to the Japan-built ES350 that is based on it? I wonder how much of that is due to the location it's built at versus just the corporate standard range for acceptable quality that is intentionally enforced/allowed to come out of each plant?

In other words I wonder if the ES350 is built significantly better than the Camry (and in my experience, it most definitely is)... is that mostly intentional on Toyota's part (to save money, etc), or is it simply a byproduct of where they're built?

The Fit reminds me of the late 80's CRX, certainly nothing new.

I would much rather have the old CRX than a Fit. There is a nice looking red one in the parking lot at school every now and then I have to take a 2nd look at, just to see if a SBC could fit between the fenders with enough work.;)

In other words I wonder if the ES350 is built significantly better than the Camry (and in my experience, it most definitely is)... is that mostly intentional on Toyota's part (to save money, etc), or is it simply a byproduct of where they're built?

Perhaps a side-effect of "We're Number 1" means copying some of GM's worst ideas, such as intentionally making lousy interiors for the pleb models.

Actually, there's been a lot of Toyotas with relatively crappy interiors. However, if I start seeing "cheap" inside Hondas, then I'm really going to start worrying that the Japanese are badge-engineering and resting on their laurels.

I wonder how the fit and finish on the Kentucky-built Camry is compared to the Japan-built ES350 that is based on it? I wonder how much of that is due to the location it's built at versus just the corporate standard range for acceptable quality that is intentionally enforced/allowed to come out of each plant?

In other words I wonder if the ES350 is built significantly better than the Camry (and in my experience, it most definitely is)... is that mostly intentional on Toyota's part (to save money, etc), or is it simply a byproduct of where they're built?

or option 3, that being quality in volume. Its easy to put it together right if you have time too.

So what, does this mean I have to start subscribing to C&D again?:D

This doesn't surprise me. CandD have never been crazy about Toyotas, simply because they are pure appliance cars. I know they recently rated the Avalon 1st over 5 other cars (Maxima, 300 V6, Ford 500, Buick Lacrosse, Kia Amanti), but typically their cars are too vanilla for CandD. So they end up finishing midpack based on their good build quality and fit/finish, along with generally being fairly quiet and refined.

In my experience, CandD swings quite addictively from the nuts of BMW (and, lately, Infiniti), Porsche, and sometimes MB. In lower priced models, they are all about Honda and lately Nissan.

I am pretty much ready to predict the next full size truck comparo:

1) Tundra 5.7L six speed
2) Silverado/Sierra
3) Nissan Titan
4) Dodge Ram
5) Ford F150

4 and 5 may be reversed, but I'm betting that is the order of the others. I'll be quite surprised if it isn't.

In the thread about the new Tundra (the title is actually about the engine), someone posted a quote from Motor Trend (generally a bunch of clowns) in which that particular author said that Toyota seems to have been chasing the GMT800 trucks, that the Tundra falls short in a few areas (especially the interior), despite the impressive powertrain. Even with that short review, I can see the Tundra winning a comparo (much like the Miata did in a head to head with the Solstice in CandD, even though the month prior they had given a slight advantage to the Solstice in sort of a quick, minicomparo). One thing to remember with these mags is that, even though they use the editorial "we" when using the first person, it is really often just one person who tested the car. So one guy might love it (or hate it), but then when the vehicle is tested again, the next guy might feel quite differently. In the comparos, even though several editors are on hand to evaluate the vehicles and generate performance data, only one editor ultimately pens the article that sums up the test.

Recall when the Mustang made the 10 Best and the GTO didn't...in the comparison of the two, even as the GTO mopped the floor with the Mustang in just about every category, the "fun to drive" and "gotta have it" factors mysteriously tipped just enough to give the Mustang a 1 point win...You might think that same mentality would help the Silverado in an MT comparo, but they could still pick the Tundra and then say "well, the Tundra wasn't eligible/available for the TOTY testing" and thus be excused from picking the Tundra over the truck that they just named TOTY a month prior...

:think:

or option 3, that being quality in volume. Its easy to put it together right if you have time too.

Well the actual volume is likely relative to the capabilities/capacities of the plants, number of workers, etc. If the ES assembly line makes 1/20th the number of cars as the Camry line, but also has 1/20th the # of employees, resources, etc... then it should be relatively even, if not slightly in the Camry's favor since it allows each employee to be more specialized and focus on a single part of the process that they know like the back of their hand.

Seems reasonable since one plant makes a premium brand car and the other a standard rate car.

... which wouldnt discredit the potential of our American autoworkers.

I thought media are biased??

You beat me to it....

Yep. I love how the media keeps calling them "B" cars or "microcars" like it is some cool new trend straight from Japan...

When we start getting the true microcars, like the Smart and some of those other 600cc-1000cc tiny things that are popular in Japan, THAT would be something more or less new to this market, at least in the modern era.


I've driven some of these 600cc minicars. All I'll say is, if you can't touch all the windows while your butt remains planted in the driver's seat, it isn't a small car. :)

I think you guys may have missed my point on the Fit. I was not saying that it is a fantastic car, nor that the idea of a small car in the US of that particular size is new. However, the year before the Fit came out in the US, there were no good cars in that particular segment. The segment was essentially non-existent, no matter what may have existed five, ten or twenty years before. And the ones that did exist was terrible cars that really were bargain cars that you got what you paid for. Not so with the Fit.

The Aveo was there and I believe the Korean's had a car, too (as well as the abysmal Echo), but the Fit is light-years ahead of those cars and still way ahead of the newer versions that came out with it. Is the Fit a significant car in the US? Yes. Is it incredibly radical? No. It is simply a phenomenal version of a car in its segment that is no doubt going to grow and will dominate the segment if Honda can build enough of them.

However, the fact that the segment is not brand new nor that the Fit itself as a car of that size and price point the most relevant point because I was saying that it would have been a better choice for Motor Trend's COTY award than the Camry which is not only not that good of a car, but does little to change the segment that it is in. That was my point. The Fit answer's Motor Trend's primary criteria better than the Camry IMHO.

I hope this made more sense. :)

Toyota forwarded this to me.
http://www.motortrend.com/oftheyear/car/112_0701_2007_coty_2007_toyota_camry

The Aveo was there and I believe the Korean's had a car, too (as well as the abysmal Echo), but the Fit is light-years ahead of those cars and still way ahead of the newer versions that came out with it. Is the Fit a significant car in the US? Yes. Is it incredibly radical? No. It is simply a phenomenal version of a car in its segment that is no doubt going to grow and will dominate the segment if Honda can build enough of them.



Have you driven a Fit? Aveo's are rolling garbage cans but acting like the Fit is a "phenomenal version" for the segment is pretty ludicrous.

I spent a lot of seat time in Aveo's and the newer ones are not that far behind the Fit.

It's going to take a long time to lose the "perception" that they hate the American brands IMO.