J.D. Power - Why Americans Favor International Brands Over Detroit Three

If anyone has access to the full article or the actual study I think it would be worth the read.

New J.D. Power Avoider Study Lists Reasons Americans Favor International Brands Over Detroit Three Cars

A recently released study conducted by J.D. Powers and commission by the Detroit News finds that Americans are more likely to buy an International nameplate automobile versus a Detroit brand, 51 percent to 49 percent. According to the study, which surveyed new vehicle shoppers with the intent to purchase within the next 24 months, shoppers avoid Detroit brand vehicles more frequently than International brands mainly due to concerns about reliability, quality, resale value and fuel efficiency. The study showed that the majority of shoppers who avoid Asian brands are doing so simply because the brand is Asian or not American. In the case of European brands, purchase and ownership costs played the largest role in avoidance.

Wow, so the media onslaught is working.

Right now, domestics sell MORE than 50% of the new vehicle market. But according to this survey, more than 51% of people looking to buy in the next 2 years favor the imports. Meanwhile, the quality/reliability issue is basically nil, fuel efficiency is a wash. Of course, there is often a gap in resale value (though typically the domestics are cheaper to buy in the first place, so I think that gap is smaller than many think). But the gap in resale value is driven by the same erroneous assumptions listed above.

So how is that even though quality has been on the mend for two+ decades, the reputation (according to this study) is STILL slipping?

Could it have ANYTHING to do with the way Toyota is covered in the media vs. the way GM and Ford are covered? Anything at all?

Unreal.

You do realize what a long, angry thread this could become?.....:p

Wow, so the media onslaught is working.

Right now, domestics sell MORE than 50% of the new vehicle market. But according to this survey, more than 51% of people looking to buy in the next 2 years favor the imports. Meanwhile, the quality/reliability issue is basically nil, fuel efficiency is a wash. Of course, there is often a gap in resale value (though typically the domestics are cheaper to buy in the first place, so I think that gap is smaller than many think). But the gap in resale value is driven by the same erroneous assumptions listed above.

So how is that even though quality has been on the mend for two+ decades, the reputation (according to this study) is STILL slipping?

Could it have ANYTHING to do with the way Toyota is covered in the media vs. the way GM and Ford are covered? Anything at all?

Unreal.


You know the saying..."stereotypes happen for a reason", and don't disappear overnight. You have to get people onto the lot to appreciate this 'new found' quality. Detroit has a 20+ year piss poor record of that.

I was under the impression that imports were already outselling domestics at retail (excluding fleet).

You know the saying..."stereotypes happen for a reason", and don't disappear overnight. You have to get people onto the lot to appreciate this 'new found' quality. Detroit has a 20+ year piss poor record of that.I know it doesn't happen overnight. But for the last 20 years the cars have gotten much better, not worse. All the recent quality studies have GM/Ford right in the mix with Honda/Toyota.

With all the improving scores and the value for the dollar on the domestics, I'd expect a slow but tangible RISE in their reputation and a corresponding rise in the number of people who wish to buy one. Yet, the numbers (admittedly just from this one study) seem to indicate that the trend is still downward. Why?

Not to mention, it isn't like ToyoHonda were building cars of solid gold while GM/Ford were building steaming piles of crap that simply broke constantly. Certainly not for most of the last generation...

I understand why the Big 3 reputation was hurt in the bad old days, but those bad old days were a while back now.

I swear it doesn't help that every time I see an article that mentions Toyota or GM, it says something to the effect of:

"Toyota has enjoyed a record sales year bolstered by its sterling reputation for quality" along with "GM and Ford continue to suffer against the onslaught from Toyota. Buyers have concerns about fuel efficiency, quality, and reliability of the domestic makes, so many are turning to imports." Rarely does the author bother to follow that up with "while some buyers have such and such concerns, the reality is that [quality scores are close to parity][GM on the whole has as many fuel economy wins as losses when compared to Toyota]" and so forth...

So, if you are reading your daily paper, and you keep seeing "buyers express concerns of quality or fuel efficiency" (but with no actual numbers), what are you going to assume? Probably that there is something wrong with the domestics. The articles just keep bringing up the point, even when it is irrelevant to the discussion. The articles don't seem to mention that these "concerns" that "buyers" are having are often based on old, outdated reputations from 25 years ago. What are the readers going to think when they keep seeing that over and over?

On our internal newsline today, there is an article headlined "Toyota Still Dominant Over Big 3". Really? I'm pretty sure that GM is still the dominant seller in the U.S. (and the world, for that matter). Toyota obviously has more upward momentum right now. But NOWHERE in this article are the actual sales numbers shown. It only showed Toyota's 12% increase vs. last December, and GM's 8% loss. If you didn't know better, from reading this article, you'd likely assume that Toyota is OUTSELLING GM in the U.S. They are gaining, sure. But they are NOT outselling GM. GM outsells Toyota here by over a MILLION vehicles. Somehow that doesn't make it into the article; only percent changes made it. So what is the reader going to conclude from that? Damn, everyone is buying Toyotas, and no one is buying GM cars. Which, of course, is hogwash. But it might just make you want to check out the Toyota store next time you are in the market, and maybe avoid the GM makes since there must be something inferior about them since Toyota is outselling them so badly... See what I mean?

The way the media reports this stuff, it is turning into a self-fulfilling prophecy...

I was under the impression that imports were already outselling domestics at retail (excluding fleet).

I wouldnt doubt that. I wish I had a dollar for every Altima/Maxima I see.

I know it doesn't happen overnight. But for the last 20 years the cars have gotten much better, not worse.

Sure GM's products got better, not worse... but so did Toyota's and Honda's. In fact the last 20 years - maybe the last 25-30 years tops is when the foreign cars really pulled away noticably.

It's not that GM wasn't improving - they just weren't improving enough... they were losing ground. And really with only a few exceptions it's only been the last 4 or 5 years that GM vehicles have really started to catch up to the Toyonda regime and these days, at least in 90 day initial quality are almost on par - at least close enough to where the small difference shouldn't be apparent to people unless they've already prejudged the brands before they set eyes on them, which is the problem we're seeing from established reputations.

I dont think Toyota has pulled away in quality the last couple years. They have recalled, what, like 5 million vehicles in 2 or 3 years?

I can certainly understand the resale value part of it. Just recently I was looking at selling my GM car that's barely more than three years old. Resale was just a tick more than 50% of its original MSRP with the result that I've lost a large chunk of the equity I started with. So I'm keeping the car for a while longer, now that it's on a gentler depreciation slope. Which means I'm not buying a new car, which is bad for GM. I can see how a lot of domestic car owners will be keeping their cars longer before going back into the market since they've lost too much money in the first 2-3 years.

I've always bought my cars, but I'm not sure I'll ever buy another GM. Either I lease to take the risk out of it, or, god forbid, I will go to another brand that will hold some of its value so I can get new cars more often.

One thing that might sound crazy, but I honestly believe about GM's perception of cheapness, is the interior. This is where people spend all of their time in a car. GM is notorious for using cheap quality interior materials along with bland designs. GM is still lagging behind in their interiors. So when a buyer sits in a GM car vs some others they get the perception of GM being "cheap" , even if the mechaincals of the car are on spot with the competition. That and the resale values give a huge perception of the entire car being bad.

One thing I see here often is the term perception. Well I personally think GM did not take interiors into account or spend anywhere near enough resources or priotitize it, which in turn worsened the perception of the car as a whole in many peoples eyes even if the reliability was improving. Maybe this is too simple, but for some reason i think was one of the main perception problems with GM. It seems liek th einterior is one of the only things car magazines can still fault GM on these days.
It is great that GM is changing both of these things, by selling less fleet vehicles, and upgrading interior materials.

I dont think Toyota has pulled away in quality the last couple years. They have recalled, what, like 5 million vehicles in 2 or 3 years?

They haven't pulled away in the last 2-3 years... they've lost ground. That's what I was getting at - only for the last 25-30 years have foreign cars really earned their reputation over domestics, and only for the last 4-5 years have domestics been close enough to really not deserve the reputation they get.

Toyota is really helping GM out by putting out some trouble-plagued camry transmissions with this latest design, plus a lot of other small recalled things.

I understand why the Big 3 reputation was hurt in the bad old days, but those bad old days were a while back now.

Unfortunately, I don't think they're that far back. I know too many people that have troubles with minivans, W-bodies, Colorados, or Cobalts. Granted this is anecdotal evidence, but it just seems that people around here are still having too many troubles with their new GM vehicles.

GM's initial quality may have improved recently, but I honestly don't think the basic engineering that makes for a durable, reliable car is up to par yet.

What affordable new car holds its value?

Before everyone starts getting crazy, here, please keep in mind that what I posted was simply a few sentence synopsis of the article/study. That’s why I asked that if anyone has access to the actual article or full-study it would be helpful to post it (or a link to it). So…perhaps before everyone starts blasting the study/author they might be well served to at least read a major part of it. :)

As to Detroit’s recent improvements in the IQS and other J.D. Power studies, J.D. Power itself has said that while GM/Ford have made significant improvements and, while some models have surpassed their non-domestic counterparts in reliability, the domestics haven’t proven yet that they can do so across the board or do so for the long term..

Many people buying today have personal experience with GM/Ford’s lack (or at least a perceived lack) of reliability from 20, 30 or even 40 years ago…with that kind of long history, even several years of J.D. Power studies showing otherwise isn’t going to just erase those experiences from the public’s mind.

What affordable new car holds its value?
VERY GOOD POINT!!!

They ALL drop like a rock in the first two years; some more than others for sure but none are truly "GOOD" at holding their initial value.

Now, in the longer term (three, four, five yeras or more out) then you start seeing some measurable differences between various models/nameplates.

Id give that some merit too, Robert. For example, a 95 Civic hatch with 185,000 miles versus a 95 Cavalier with Any miles.

Unfortunately, I don't think they're that far back. I know too many people that have troubles with minivans, W-bodies, Colorados, or Cobalts. Granted this is anecdotal evidence, but it just seems that people around here are still having too many troubles with their new GM vehicles.

GM's initial quality may have improved recently, but I honestly don't think the basic engineering that makes for a durable, reliable car is up to par yet.Anecdotal indeed. My brother's wife was driving around in a 200k+ Olds Eighty Eight before they moved to Germany with the Army, with only minor maint. stuff done.

A fellow on this very board posted about having a Tacoma for about 40k miles that was in the shop for 4 or 5 issues during that time. He got rid of it for a Colorado, which after 40k miles has had zero issues.

As for the basic engineering, the engineers at GM are every bit as competent as engineers anywhere in the world. One thing to keep in mind is that engineers have to consider cost in anything they are designing. When you have a built in deficit of $1500/car in health care for retirees who don't even work for the company any more, you have a pretty big disadvantage. So the engineer (and the engineers at the suppliers) have to stretch pretty thin to make a part as reliable and effective but for less than ideal dough, perhaps.

Do not doubt the ability of GM engineers to create absolutely awesome stuff. Witness the Corvette and Z06, for example. To get anywhere near the level of performance and drivability of those two cars, you basically have to spend twice as much money, or more. Witness the dual mode hybrid system, first developed at Allison Transmission (and used in the big busses), now being adapted and improved (along with DCX and BMW) for use in civilian cars and trucks.

Since I brought up the cost advantage due to health care, what is really great about this is the same people who are buying Toyotas and Hondas, causing GM to skim by in terms of revenue/profits, will probably the the same people to piss and moan if Ford or GM were to crumble and have to break their obligation to pay for all those retirees. "Oh, look, Ford is stabbing its retirees in the back, man am I glad I bought a Honda; they'd never do that..."

Sorry for the tangent, but this whole thing would be humerous if it weren't so damn serious and critical...

Many people buying today have personal experience with GM/Ford’s lack (or at least a perceived lack) of reliability from 20, 30 or even 40 years ago…with that kind of long history, even several years of J.D. Power studies showing otherwise isn’t going to just erase those experiences from the public’s mind.This is true. In fact, this is why my Grandfather buys Hondas. (They got hooked on them when they lived in Jersey and their son, my uncle, took a job as a salesman at a Honda dealer. They tried one since he got them a good deal, and they love them. They've owned a few since then...)

Of course, when people start talking about the "wrong" that GM/Ford did 20-40 years ago as though it was some unforgivable, despicable act, I like to point out that it wasn't long before THAT when we were mortal enemies of the Japanese who had brutally attacked us and drawn us into a world war...

I had this argument with my grandfather once. My basic point was that if you are going to hold a couple of quality problems on a car from 30 years ago against GM/Ford, why do you not hold WW2 against the Japanese? Do you not think that people have come and gone and things could have changed over the last 30 years at GM/Ford? His basic response was that it is the same company, blah blah. By the way, that is the "same company" that stopped building cars and started building tanks, airplane engines, and so forth...Of course, I followed that with a question about what is so different about Japan then? There you are talking about the culture of a nation, not just the products of a company. If Japan is given a second chance to be our friends, shouldn't you people consider giving GM/Ford a second chance, instead of writing them off?

I had a pretty strong disagreement with my grandfather over that. And I consider him to be one of the smartest, sharpest people I've ever met or known, from anywhere.

As for the basic engineering, the engineers at GM are every bit as competent as engineers anywhere in the world. One thing to keep in mind is that engineers have to consider cost in anything they are designing. When you have a built in deficit of $1500/car in health care for retirees who don't even work for the company any more, you have a pretty big disadvantage. So the engineer (and the engineers at the suppliers) have to stretch pretty thin to make a part as reliable and effective but for less than ideal dough, perhaps.

Do not doubt the ability of GM engineers to create absolutely awesome stuff. Witness the Corvette and Z06, for example. To get anywhere near the level of performance and drivability of those two cars, you basically have to spend twice as much money, or more. Witness the dual mode hybrid system, first developed at Allison Transmission (and used in the big busses), now being adapted and improved (along with DCX and BMW) for use in civilian cars and trucks.

My intent wasn't to disparage the engineers. I fully understand how engineering works, and I realize that in many (but not all) cases the decision is out of the design engineer's hands. But regardless of how we got to this point, at the end of the day the result is the same: there's some less than ideal products still rolling off GM's assembly lines.

This is true. In fact, this is why my Grandfather buys Hondas. (They got hooked on them when they lived in Jersey and their son, my uncle, took a job as a salesman at a Honda dealer. They tried one since he got them a good deal, and they love them. They've owned a few since then...)

Of course, when people start talking about the "wrong" that GM/Ford did 20-40 years ago as though it was some unforgivable, despicable act, I like to point out that it wasn't long before THAT when we were mortal enemies of the Japanese who had brutally attacked us and drawn us into a world war...

I had this argument with my grandfather once. My basic point was that if you are going to hold a couple of quality problems on a car from 30 years ago against GM/Ford, why do you not hold WW2 against the Japanese? Do you not think that people have come and gone and things could have changed over the last 30 years at GM/Ford? His basic response was that it is the same company, blah blah. By the way, that is the "same company" that stopped building cars and started building tanks, airplane engines, and so forth...Of course, I followed that with a question about what is so different about Japan then? There you are talking about the culture of a nation, not just the products of a company. If Japan is given a second chance to be our friends, shouldn't you people consider giving GM/Ford a second chance, instead of writing them off?

I had a pretty strong disagreement with my grandfather over that. And I consider him to be one of the smartest, sharpest people I've ever met or known, from anywhere.
People do have long memories…I mean, here in the south, many people are still fighting the “War of Northern Aggression” (also known as the American Civil War) and I think it’s obvious that there are more than a few people on this board who hate Asian cars in general and Japanese cars in particular simply because they are Asian/Japanese cars; not for any logical, rational reason.

What I’m getting at is that people remembering their experiences of 20 or 30 years ago with Detroit’s vehicles shouldn’t be a big surprise…not because GM/Ford “can’t be forgiven” just that it’s difficult to overcome a bad, personal, experience.

I suggest we also keep in mind that enthusiasts, such as those who participate in boards like this, suffer from the very common malady of thinking that everybody thinks like they do in that because they are so involved and interested in cars, everybody else is as well…the truth is, however, that the average person doesn’t look at J.D. Power IQS results nor are they swayed by the alleged “biased press” because they don’t really read there either…they buy vehicles based on suggestions from relatives, friends, commercials and whatever strikes their fancy at the moment they decide it’s time to buy…they may have heard, from sources they can’t even remember, that Japanese cars are more reliable or get better gas mileage (or commercials tell them so) and so they go out and that’s what they buy.

As for the basic engineering, the engineers at GM are every bit as competent as engineers anywhere in the world. One thing to keep in mind is that engineers have to consider cost in anything they are designing. When you have a built in deficit of $1500/car in health care for retirees who don't even work for the company any more, you have a pretty big disadvantage. So the engineer (and the engineers at the suppliers) have to stretch pretty thin to make a part as reliable and effective but for less than ideal dough, perhaps.

Well, yes. But keep in mind that GM has also generally chosen an ASP that's $2K lower than Toyota/Honda, AND is very likely cost-engineering for the $1500 rebate they are inevitably going to put on the thing.

So, the consumer might perceive correctly that the Toyota is $4000 more car than the Chevy. He still might buy the Chev as a "better value", but "Wouldn't you really rather have a Toyota?" is going to be going through his mind.

The biggest problem GM has IMO is that their marketing strategy has been totally disconnected with the fact they have this huge cost structure. The fixed costs are not going entirely away short of bankruptcy -- the company has to adapt to it (and dumping a bunch of cheap W-Cars on fleets is not the way to do it.)

Well, Lutz says GM is trying to change this equasion, but for the most part he's talking about future models, not what's on the lot today.

I'm also not totally convinced people are talking about domestic reputation from 30 years ago. More like 10.

I suggest we also keep in mind that enthusiasts, such as those who participate in boards like this, suffer from the very common malady of thinking that everybody thinks like they do in that because they are so involved and interested in cars, everybody else is as well…the truth is, however, that the average person doesn’t look at J.D. Power IQS results nor are they swayed by the alleged “biased press” because they don’t really read there either…they buy vehicles based on suggestions from relatives, friends, commercials and whatever strikes their fancy at the moment they decide it’s time to buy…they may have heard, from sources they can’t even remember, that Japanese cars are more reliable or get better gas mileage (or commercials tell them so) and so they go out and that’s what they buy.That's exactly my point. In my earlier post in this thread, I was discussing that.

People DO read newspapers and watch the news. Or their friends do. So it may just take a few of these irresponsible "news" reports in which they yet again point out the majesty of Toyota and the financial difficulties of GM/Ford. They see a couple of articles like that, and it sticks. As you said, they aren't enthusiasts. They go by what they see and hear from friends, relatives, or what they catch glimpses of on the news or in the paper.

Also, there are LOTS of non-enthusiasts who still do at least some research, but that research is more likely to come from Consumer Reports or Edmunds.com.

Enough little seeds get planted, and all the sudden you've got a large chunk of buyers who simply think Japanese cars are automatically better. Even if they've never driven or owned a domestic themselves.

Non-enthusiast buyer: Hey, check out my new Camry!
More car knowledgable guy: That's nice. Did you take a look at the Impala or Saturn Aura while you were shopping?
NEB: No, I just bought the Camry. My friends say that domestic cars are junk and get crappy fuel economy and that Toyotas rule!
MCKG: :blah:

:shrug:

If anyone has access to the full article or the actual study I think it would be worth the read.
I wonder what percentage of people surveyed were going to buy over leasing.

Anyone know the breakdown of people who buy over lease a new vehical? Also, is this only cars or does it include trucks?

I know you guys are going to tear this suvey a new one, but what new cars out are out there for the home team? The Kappa cars are still relativity new. The W cars are the ones that have been the big sellers and how long has it been since they had a complete redesign? Sure they have had a face lift, but when was the last time the general public saw a complete redsign of the cars? If there hasn't been real redesign of the car, I would think that the general public would still see the W cars as the same old ones that may or may not have given them problems. Why buy sometime again if the who car hasn't been redesigned?

People do have long memories…I mean, here in the south, many people are still fighting the “War of Northern Aggression” (also known as the American Civil War) and I think it’s obvious that there are more than a few people on this board who hate Asian cars in general and Japanese cars in particular simply because they are Asian/Japanese cars; not for any logical, rational reason.

What I’m getting at is that people remembering their experiences of 20 or 30 years ago with Detroit’s vehicles shouldn’t be a big surprise…not because GM/Ford “can’t be forgiven” just that it’s difficult to overcome a bad, personal, experience.

I suggest we also keep in mind that enthusiasts, such as those who participate in boards like this, suffer from the very common malady of thinking that everybody thinks like they do in that because they are so involved and interested in cars, everybody else is as well…the truth is, however, that the average person doesn’t look at J.D. Power IQS results nor are they swayed by the alleged “biased press” because they don’t really read there either…they buy vehicles based on suggestions from relatives, friends, commercials and whatever strikes their fancy at the moment they decide it’s time to buy…they may have heard, from sources they can’t even remember, that Japanese cars are more reliable or get better gas mileage (or commercials tell them so) and so they go out and that’s what they buy.
I would agree with that last assumsion. Even though just about every so call Auto reviewer might not care for anything from Detroit, I think they have very little influance on the average joe. If anything, I would think that Consumer Reports would be the only one that would have any kind of influance on any buyer, but even that I'm not sure of.

This thread represents my reasoning that American car companies should start building more dynamic cars that further themselves from the likes of the Japanese offerings. Cars like the Ford rwd in another thread and the Aussie car comming here as a G8 or Grand Prix.

At the same time (or over the next half decade) I think Americans are going to start seeing that when Toyota and Honda start making cars that are as heavy and powerfull and high volume as their American competitors that they have quality problems as well.

I also think this surge of Kia-type car buying will hurt some foriegn makers at the same time as they start to see that these like Kias and Hundais are just as bad as the late 80's American cars were.

I think it’s obvious that there are more than a few people on this board who hate Asian cars in general and Japanese cars in particular simply because they are Asian/Japanese cars; not for any logical, rational reason.


I agree.

I think it’s obvious that there are more than a few people on this board who hate Asian cars in general and Japanese cars in particular simply because they are Asian/Japanese cars; not for any logical, rational reason.

I agree.
That may be the case for SOME people, but not all. Me personally? I find just about every car, from every manufacturer BORING!!! :tired: The magazines, commercials, whomever, "say" that these Camrys, Corrolas, Civics, etc., etc., are "fun", "sporty", etc. ..... have these people actually driven them, and then driven a REAL sports car???!!! :confused: :rolleyes:

... ok, so I'm maybe focussed on a small fragment of the market ("sports cars") ... but let's talk something main-stream, like TRUCKS. I could never be convinced to buy anything other than a new GM truck, because of (mainly) their ENGINES (Gen-III SBC's :thumb: ) and the rest of the driveline, as well as (for me) their interiors (while "maybe" lacking in "quality"? :shrug: ) they "appear" nice to me, and overall, I like the trucks! :) Oh, and I just researched fuel economy in another thread recently ... the Silverado's out-performed all (import trucks) but the Honda Ridgeline for fuel economy, but they also out-powered all of the competition (yes, even the "mighty" Toyota Tundra :rolleyes: ).

And here's a another question/problem. The Toyota Matrix / Pontiac Vibe. Same car? Same engine? Who builds what on that car?? How do you convince someone that if they spend more money for the Matrix, they're not getting any more quality for it??? :shrug: (seriously, I've had this debate with a couple people I work with).

The key term is 'perceived' quality. When you sit in a Toyota and observe the fit and finish, quality of plastics, the warm and inviting surround, ranging from the clear and bright instrumentation, to the look and feel of the leather steering wheel and instrumentation cowl - all things that a customer immediately feels and casts an impression of overall quality - does a GM car compare favourably?

Regarding perceptions on fuel economy, Toyota's fuel economy is generally great on their small cars but I don't believe this perception is also carried over on their SUVs simply because I don't believe that consumers would expect great fuel economy on SUVs.

As for reliability, maybe Detroit still has some way to go to convince import buyers to step back into domestics but there are countless happy owners of GM or Ford products who haven't had much to complain about... If you look hard enough there are lots of forums describing ownership woes of engine failures and the like and not all experiences are isolated to domestics either - that also includes Toyota!

At the same time (or over the next half decade) I think Americans are going to start seeing that when Toyota and Honda start making cars that are as heavy and powerfull and high volume as their American competitors that they have quality problems as well.

In this same vein, today compare the product portfolios of Toyonda against the domestics. What's missing? Some are hit or miss but quite a bit is non existent in general. Only non-domestic that veers from the conservative straight and narrow is Nissan. Toyonda would seem to have a very middle of the road portfolio.

What are the Toyonda equivalents for....

Suburban / Yukon / Expedition
300 / Charger / SRT-8s
CTS V / STS V
Mustang / GT500
Silverado / F-150 (true 1/2 and multitude configurations)
Viper
Silverado HD / F Series SD (gas and diesel)
Ford GT
Corvette / Z06
Cobalt SS
Solstice / Sky
G6 Coupe Hardtop

Thus with all the props and enthusiasm for Toyonda, does America really want to trade in their domestic portfolio, purchase and drive the Toyonda flavor?

Considering the multitude of models and variants the domestics produce are all these comparisons propping the Toyonda machine done from a level playing field? Would Americans be happy if the domestics mimicked the Toyonda profolio exactly without all these other products (listed above)? If the domestics did this, there’s a strong certainty that these would be very strong probably class leading produces, but good lord at the end of the day a Camry is still a Camry and not large V8 coupe/sedan nor could you tow your 5th wheel around the country with it.

Thus with all the props and enthusiasm for Toyonda, does America really want to trade in their domestic portfolio, purchase and drive the Toyonda flavor?


I dunno, Ever glance around and see all the slack-jawed zombies commuting too and fro, Bored people need boring cars to complete the cricle.

In this same vein, today compare the product portfolios of Toyonda against the domestics. What's missing? Some are hit or miss but quite a bit is non existent in general. Only non-domestic that veers from the conservative straight and narrow is Nissan. Toyonda would seem to have a very middle of the road portfolio.

What are the Toyonda equivalents for....

Suburban / Yukon / Expedition
300 / Charger / SRT-8s
CTS V / STS V
Mustang / GT500
Silverado / F-150 (true 1/2 and multitude configurations)
Viper
Silverado HD / F Series SD (gas and diesel)
Ford GT
Corvette / Z06
Cobalt SS
Solstice / Sky
G6 Coupe Hardtop

Thus with all the props and enthusiasm for Toyonda, does America really want to trade in their domestic portfolio, purchase and drive the Toyonda flavor?

Considering the multitude of models and variants the domestics produce are all these comparisons propping the Toyonda machine done from a level playing field? Would Americans be happy if the domestics mimicked the Toyonda profolio exactly without all these other products (listed above)? If the domestics did this, there’s a strong certainty that these would be very strong probably class leading produces, but good lord at the end of the day a Camry is still a Camry and not large V8 coupe/sedan nor could you tow your 5th wheel around the country with it.
Good post.

I wonder, however, if given everything we (Ford/GM) knows today, would THEY still have/be producing all the vehicles you mentioned?

Would Chevrolet build a Corvette at all (let alone a Z06) if it hadn’t started 50 years ago?

Would either Ford or GM still be producing all the various large trucks/SUV’s?

I don’t know the answer but I suspect you would see a smaller list than the one you presented here as I think some of those vehicles would either never have existed or been discounted a while ago.

My point being, a manufacturer doesn’t have to compete/have a competing model for everything everybody else offers to be profitable and to sell a lot of vehicles…at the end of the day, what really counts for all the nameplates is not how many of what vehicles they sold or what market segments they competed in but whether they are profitable or not selling what they do sell.

Thus with all the props and enthusiasm for Toyonda, does America really want to trade in their domestic portfolio, purchase and drive the Toyonda flavor?
That's EXACTLY what I was talking about in the first paragraph of my last post ;) :thumb: (#28 (http://web.camaross.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4322324&postcount=28)).

Shy of maybe the Mazda Miata (MX-5) and the Honda S2000, there's pretty much no other import that really screams "check ME out!" :shrug:

All the imports cover are daily-commuter, grocery getters :rolleyes:. I realize, that's probably the BIGGEST segment of the market, and goes part & parcel with the largest demographic of car buyers (middle-aged, working class) so if you are successful in that segment, then you've got nothing to worry about, but STILL, how un-inspired do you have to be to find anything "sporty" about ANY Toyota/Honda, etc.?!? :rolleyes:

My old econo-box Sunfire at least looked sporty, while also providing me with basic, no-frills transportation and good fuel economy :thumb:.

My old econo-box Sunfire at least looked sporty, while also providing me with basic, no-frills transportation and good fuel economy :thumb:.
same thing people say about some hondas.;)

Shy of maybe the Mazda Miata (MX-5) and the Honda S2000, there's pretty much no other import that really screams "check ME out!"

I dunno, Ever glance around and see all the slack-jawed zombies commuting too and fro, Bored people need boring cars to complete the cricle.

:D

Just thought id tie those thoughts together for giggles...

The question is do more people want fun cars or are more willing to settle for boring cars that are only (a little) more reliable?

In other words, with exciting new vehicle line-ups in the very near future from American manufacturers, will people still prefer the mundane? If so.....that is still no reason for GM to start mimicking Toyota.

Better article - same story... charts, graphs, etc.

http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070103/AUTO01/701030382/1148

"While 83 percent of the 500 consumers polled said they will consider buying or leasing an American-branded car or truck in the next 24 months, only 49 percent said they would "most likely" purchase a vehicle built by GM, Ford or Chrysler.

And of the 18 percent polled who avoid American brands entirely, the most influential concerns were about reliability, poor quality, resale value and fuel economy.

"People are just so many times more likely to avoid a domestic brand vehicle because of these issues than they are to avoid an Asian brand," said Todd Wilson, director of automotive research for J.D. Power in Westlake Village, Calif."

Now this should explain more about why I feel the way I do about... media bias, companies based in Asia, responsible spending, and MORONIC, IGNORANT, UNEDUCATED BUYERS in the USA... all in one story.

It's a bit long, but a great read.

I think this is the full tilt version Robert was looking for......

http://detnews.com/graphics/2007/0102jdpower.pdf

GM is in a good position to start changing people's perceptions. They finally seem to have a good mix of management and product in the hopper (as the two go hand-in-hand).

Just as important, both the shareholders and the UAW seem to be onboard with Wagoner's turn around plan. From an outsider's perspective, he did a good job not alienating the UAW, so hopefully that helps come contract time later this year.

If the new products are as good as we're lead to believe, and if the stars align just right, GM will be able to change this image quicker than we believe.

Wow, so the media onslaught is working.

Right now, domestics sell MORE than 50% of the new vehicle market. But according to this survey, more than 51% of people looking to buy in the next 2 years favor the imports. Meanwhile, the quality/reliability issue is basically nil, fuel efficiency is a wash. Of course, there is often a gap in resale value (though typically the domestics are cheaper to buy in the first place, so I think that gap is smaller than many think). But the gap in resale value is driven by the same erroneous assumptions listed above.

So how is that even though quality has been on the mend for two+ decades, the reputation (according to this study) is STILL slipping?

Could it have ANYTHING to do with the way Toyota is covered in the media vs. the way GM and Ford are covered? Anything at all?

Unreal.
IMHO it has EVERYTHING to do with it! It is unreal isn't it.

Nissan moves headquarters from So Cal to Tennesee and sheds 3/4's of it's staff and it's somehow regarded as creating jobs.

That right there shows you what is really up in the world.

That's exactly my point. In my earlier post in this thread, I was discussing that.

People DO read newspapers and watch the news. Or their friends do. So it may just take a few of these irresponsible "news" reports in which they yet again point out the majesty of Toyota and the financial difficulties of GM/Ford. They see a couple of articles like that, and it sticks. As you said, they aren't enthusiasts. They go by what they see and hear from friends, relatives, or what they catch glimpses of on the news or in the paper.

Also, there are LOTS of non-enthusiasts who still do at least some research, but that research is more likely to come from Consumer Reports or Edmunds.com.

Enough little seeds get planted, and all the sudden you've got a large chunk of buyers who simply think Japanese cars are automatically better. Even if they've never driven or owned a domestic themselves.

Non-enthusiast buyer: Hey, check out my new Camry!
More car knowledgable guy: That's nice. Did you take a look at the Impala or Saturn Aura while you were shopping?
NEB: No, I just bought the Camry. My friends say that domestic cars are junk and get crappy fuel economy and that Toyotas rule!
MCKG: :blah:

:shrug:

I agree. It's these little comments, here and there, however subtle they may be, they seep into the minds of the buying public. And I would also have to dissagree with the people saying, people have long memories, IMO that's BS. If so we wouldn't find ourselves repeating histories mistakes all over again, the way we are! The media, by and large, are out to do away with the American manufacturers, and ultimately America. And this study proves for me, that they've been quite effective.

I agree. It's these little comments, here and there, however subtle they may be, they seep into the minds of the buying public. And I would also have to dissagree with the people saying, people have long memories, IMO that's BS. If so we wouldn't find ourselves repeating histories mistakes all over again, the way we are! The media, by and large, are out to do away with the American manufacturers. And this study proves for me, that they've been quite effective.

GM should just hire a better Marketing Team....

GM is in a good position to start changing people's perceptions. They finally seem to have a good mix of management and product in the hopper (as the two go hand-in-hand).

Just as important, both the shareholders and the UAW seem to be onboard with Wagoner's turn around plan. From an outsider's perspective, he did a good job not alienating the UAW, so hopefully that helps come contract time later this year.

If the new products are as good as we're lead to believe, and if the stars align just right, GM will be able to change this image quicker than we believe.

Know what? I am not to sure that GM can do it alone. Ford either.

The more I think about this topic, the more I am convinced that there needs to be a joint effort between GM and Ford (and maybe Daimler/Chrysler too :shrug: ) to convince the American people that American car companies as a whole are competitive again.

Look at the poll we were just discussing... it doesn't really speak about any specific brands, it speaks about "Asian" companies, "European" comapnies, and "American" ones. It doesn't say "Toyota" over "Chevrolet". :no:
The mindset that many have is against American car companies as a whole, so I think that American car companies will need to conjunctively work together to pull out of this funk.

Now, don't ask me how they are going to do it yet... I'm still thinking that one over... :yes:

Not saying either one making improvements is not a worthwhile effort - it most definitely is... I'm just saying that any one of the big 2.5 is not going to sway the erroneous perceptions of "American cars have poor quality" alone, and I'd like to see a couter-campaign by the big 2.5 to fight the media's almost constant support of "anything un-American".

:usa:

I think it will take a combined effort of everyone involved, US included. I WILL continue to do my part, in the onslaught against the dirty dogs in the media!