Do we like the IRS for the 5TH gen

Hey guys and gals tell me what you think of the 5TH gen getting IRS good or bad?

I think it's a good thing. Handling should benefit over a solid axle.

I don't understand why some people get so bent out of shape over IRS. Corvettes have had them since 1963. It must have something going for it for GM to keep using it the past 43+ years in their "top of the line" performance car.

As far as the strip, I had MUCH better 60' times at the strip in my 85 Vette than I ever had in my 95 Z, 96 Z, or 01 SS. A buddy of mine gets INSANE 60' times with his 03 Cobra's IRS.

As far as durability, if it can stand up to the abuse of a 505 horse Z06, it should be just fine in a (hopefully ;)) 450+ hp Camaro.

For a daily driven sports car, I'd prefer IRS.

I say it's the best thing to happen to the Camaro as far as I'm concerned. The last few sports cars I've had were IRS, and compared to the live-axle cars I've owned, they are nicer to drive.

For the drag racers, or ultra high HP guys, a live axle may be better...

As far as the strip, I had MUCH better 60' times at the strip in my 85 Vette than I ever had in my 95 Z, 96 Z, or 01 SS.
Your '85 Vette is lighter than your Camaros, with more rearward weight distribution.

As far as durability, if it can stand up to the abuse of a 505 horse Z06, it should be just fine in a (hopefully ;)) 450+ hp Camaro.
It won't be the same setup. Corvette uses a transaxle; I think it's safe to assume that the Camaro transmission will be up front with the engine and that there will be a more traditional gearbox in back.

That said, GM has proven that they can build (or at least source) an IRS that can handle lots of power. :D

I'm looking forward to the Camaro "graduating" to a more new-age suspension setup (instead of using a ~20-year-old design :rolleyes: ) but I just hope that they build it strong enough to handle the abuse that WILL be thrown at it by many buyers :thumb:. We don't need a repeat of the 3rd/4th-gen's 10-bolt made of glass :rolleyes:.

If the new z06 can run 11s with IRS i have no problem with the new Camaro being IRS. Its about time it upgrades.

If the new z06 can run 11s with IRS i have no problem with the new Camaro being IRS. Its about time it upgrades.
Try 10's (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=469NvIOiz7U) :thumb:.

Motor trend tested a Lingenfelter Twin turbo C6 with a stock rear end and when they dragged it it blew the rear end to peices. That being said, it also had 750
horse power and they had done a few runs and it was a stick, so they revved it and dropped the clutch, so it was a hoge shock load

Heck yeah, IRS is a GREAT thing for the new Camaro! :)

I would be more than happy w/o IRS.

Great ride! Great handling! Sounds like its time for some fun on the twisties. Tail of the Dragon, here I come!:cool:

I can't believe I'm supporting the I.R.S., but on the new Camaro, it would be a good thing. :D

IRS sux. So does fuel injection. I really never trusted those new fangled round wheels either.

IRS sux. So does fuel injection. I really never trusted those new fangled round wheels either.
Yeah, those triangular wheels we used back in the day were the ****!

Yeah, those triangular wheels we used back in the day were the ****!

The square ones were much more stable. I've seen plenty of round wheeled cars lose control. It's an inherent flaw in the rounded wheel.

The square ones were much more stable. I've seen plenty of round wheeled cars lose control. It's an inherent flaw in the rounded wheel.
Yeah. I love the way the corners of the old square wheels would just dig right in to ice and snow. We never lost traction!

IRS sux. So does fuel injection. I really never trusted those new fangled round wheels either.

:lol:

I sure hope they bring back the powerglide too! My '66 Impala and my '63 Corvair were so darned efficient with that tranny, who needs more gears!

Bring back the Bias Ply tires and drum brakes too! Those were the days!

;)

Ooh, ooh, and can we get a hand-crank starter??? :eek: How 'bout a horse pulling it, and a set of reigns?? :)

Ooh, ooh, and can we get a hand-crank starter??? :eek: How 'bout a horse pulling it, and a set of reigns?? :)

:metal:

... :lol:

back on topic.. yes.. IRS is a great thing IMO... so there are a very small minority of hardcore drag racing types who won't be happy with it...

nothing personal to them, but their opinions are insiginificant compared to the public perception of IRS vs live axle.. how it will be recieved in the media and the general public, and add to that the better ride and handling...

there have been a few times taking an on-ramp pretty quick when there was a bump mid-turn that scooted my rear end over.. kinda freaky...

I'm amazed the 4th gens handled as well as they did with a live axle.......which leaves me drooling over the possibilities of an IRS setup...

I'm amazed the 4th gens handled as well as they did with a live axle.......which leaves me drooling over the possibilities of an IRS setup...
The negatives about LRA handling are only on bumpy/inconsistent surfaces. On a smooth, flat road, in otherwise identical cars, you'd literally never notice a difference in handling between the two setups.

So IRS is the way to go? If the Vette uses it then I guess it is good for the Camaro:bow:

I sure hope they bring back the powerglide too! My '66 Impala and my '63 Corvair were so darned efficient with that tranny, who needs more gears!


Yeah, right on! All of these 3, 4, 5 and now 6 speed trannies. What - are they trying to show off or something? How about some relish on that hotdog.

No thanks. I've heard bad things about all of those EXTRA shifts.

Anyone else up for leaf springs?? Cant have traction bars without leaf springs and this thing needs traction!!!!!!!!

A couple cinder blocks in the back should add a little more weight, give a little better traction :thumb:. Or maybe some chains on the tires, since it's gonna sit like a 4x4 anyway, might as well be able to get some good off-road traction :cool:.

I was actually just thinking about it today I can't wait to see and IRS under the Camaro. I want this car to impress everyone that drives it all the way down to the most basic models.

I want to read that the v6 base model out handles any of the Mustangs, and that the upper models are the best handling most all around versitle muscle cars ever built...but that is just me.

the point is cost...

cost of repairs.. that means you get upper control arms and lower control arms.. bushings etc... isn't a live axle more cost effective???

isn't a live axle more cost effective???
A live axle is cheaper, if that's what you mean.

An IRS will probably sell more cars, and you'd have to take that into account if you were analyzing cost effectiveness.

Ooh, ooh, and can we get a hand-crank starter??? :eek: How 'bout a horse pulling it, and a set of reigns?? :)

...and we could upgrade it with an oil-bath carburetor!!

IRS sux. So does fuel injection. I really never trusted those new fangled round wheels either.

Dude, things were so much better when wheels where square with square holes in the middle!

IRS is a good thing i like it!!!!!

No problems here!

Indiffrent myself, just depends on the car. Then again it gets a little tiresome hearing about the greatness of IRS and how it solves all the evil in the world and makes little babies smile.

As long as it will handle the power and not wheel hop I am ok with IRS.

As long as it will handle the power and not wheel hop I am ok with IRS.

that pretty much sums it up. plus the cost factor.

Ford went away from the IRS in the previous cobra's when the new Shelby came out. I would guess that this had to do with the car needing to come in at a specific cost, OR it wasn't up to the task of handling the extra TQ.

that being said, I am FINE with IRS in the new camaro. IF it doesn't raise the price of the car to be "over the top"; which IMO would be more than the msrp of the last GTO's. preferrably even a little less for a low option Z28 (or whatever they call it). and thats around 28-32.

AND the IRS has to work more like the c5 and up IRS; in that it will handle more power than a stock 4th gen live axle, with almost no weight penalty. UNLIKE the GTO and the CTSV, which DO wheelhop, and aren't known to handle clutch dumps too well.

So, if it doesn't cost too much, handles moderate HP upgrades from stock (IE, average LS2 heads/cam numbers) and doesn't add significant weight; its IRS for me. Sound like I want my cake and be able to eat it too? lol.

Otherwise, in a performance car that more people will dragrace rather than roadrace they should go live axle. save the costs, weight penalty, and complexity to service.

Hey guys and gals tell me what you think of the 5TH gen getting IRS good or bad?

good

Otherwise, in a performance car that more people will dragrace rather than roadrace they should go live axle. save the costs, weight penalty, and complexity to service.
Actually, the majority of Camaros will probably be STREET driven, so the IRS will come in pretty handy there ;). Like it or not, a few die-hard drag racers aren't going to convince GM to build ~10,000 cars to suit their needs and let the other ~90,000 owners suffer a car that doesn't ride as nice :rolleyes:.

I'm sure the aftermarket will come up with some design to compensate wherever GM lacks? :cool:

Actually, the majority of Camaros will probably be STREET driven, so the IRS will come in pretty handy there ;). Like it or not, a few die-hard drag racers aren't going to convince GM to build ~10,000 cars to suit their needs and let the other ~90,000 owners suffer a car that doesn't ride as nice :rolleyes:.

I'm sure the aftermarket will come up with some design to compensate wherever GM lacks? :cool:

yes, the aftermarket is always up to fix gm's various blunders.

Just put a 12-bolt in it.

IRS is the way to go :thumb:

For the masses anyway. I don't think it should affect it's drag racing capability. The Vette is a pretty good dragster isn't it??

I know some of those jokers run some serious power too.

Lack of an IRS is one of my turn-offs to the Mustang.
IRS = good thing.

Irs Is The Way To Go But Lets Pray We Dont Get 7.50 Gearing

Irs Is The Way To Go But Lets Pray We Dont Get 7.50 Gearing

yeah i never understood why we got s-10 7.5 rears and friggin vans and light pickups got 14 bolts.

yeah i never understood why we got s-10 7.5 rears and friggin vans and light pickups got 14 bolts.

The light trucks ddn't get 14 bolts... they got 10 bolts.

The negatives about LRA handling are only on bumpy/inconsistent surfaces. On a smooth, flat road, in otherwise identical cars, you'd literally never notice a difference in handling between the two setups.

Yeah. Like those billiard-table smooth onramps and freeways we all travel every day. I don't know about you guys, but I've never seen a poorly done asphalt patch on my way to work. ;)

Jake's got a point here- there's absolutely no reason to put a smoother, better handling IRS on the Camaro. People who have never driven a Camaro before will never notice the difference, and even if they did GM doesn't care if they buy the car. :rolleyes:

I'm amazed the 4th gens handled as well as they did with a live axle.......which leaves me drooling over the possibilities of an IRS setup...
The negatives about LRA handling are only on bumpy/inconsistent surfaces. On a smooth, flat road, in otherwise identical cars, you'd literally never notice a difference in handling between the two setups.
Yeah. Like those billiard-table smooth onramps and freeways we all travel every day. I don't know about you guys, but I've never seen a poorly done asphalt patch on my way to work. ;)

Jake's got a point here- there's absolutely no reason to put a smoother, better handling IRS on the Camaro. People who have never driven a Camaro before will never notice the difference, and even if they did GM doesn't care if they buy the car. :rolleyes:

Please allow me to put my quote in context. I was responding to a guy that said he was amazed at how well the 4th gens handled with the live rear axle. At no point did I imply that the benefits of IRS weren't worthwhile or that I thought the 5th gen should stick with LRA.

Perhaps I should be rolling my eyes at you.

Since you brought it up, though -- most of the freeway onramps around me are nice and smooth. :D

Apologies. I assumed that you were touting LRA as the way to go. Nice to know that's not the case.

Around here the onramps are smooth, but they're built in sections and there's always a small lip at the meeting point. If you're really hustling a solid axle around one of the curved ones there's a slight, but noticeable, hop. Makes me nuts.

Solid axle for this cat.

IRS= too heavy, too complicated, more crap to break.

Put a good solid axle under there or at least design the car so that it can be swapped in.

Engine in a box thread.
I think that this 5th gen section should be redone into the following
- Camaro Concept Models: Saw a new toy at Wal Mart? Discuss here!
- Engine in a Box: If you want a Big Block powerd, M-22 or TH400 trans'd, 12 bolt leaf spring, out of the box dragster, discuss here!!
- Actual 5th Gen Discussion: Password Required

With that said, IRS all the way for the people that arent going to drop big money on a straight to the track dragster.

well, the way I see it, I'll be fine with the IRS if they build a strong enough one. but if I have to pay a couple thousand dollars more for the car for them to force me to buy an IRS, AND its weak, that will suck. the camaro is supposed to be for the younger, not so rich buyer and the closer the price gets to the vette, the less people will be able to afford it. and for the people who can afford 35K for a car, how many of those can afford 50K instead for a vette that will actually be worth something still in a few years? they need to keep the big seperation between the cars in order to sell more camaro's.
and, for the people who you say dont care if it can handle lots of power, and are fine with the car stock, those same people probably wont notice the diff. between LRA and IRS, but do pay attention to how comfy the seats are or not. right? which is where the 4 gen missed the mark big time. a car thats "hard" to get in and out of and has poor vision of the road in front of you will not sell to the masses. they will get in the car cause it looks sporty and go OMG, I cant see ****. looks like the fixed that problem already though from the pics. I have yet to see one of them in person let alone sit in one.

and, for the people who you say dont care if it can handle lots of power, and are fine with the car stock, those same people probably wont notice the diff. between LRA and IRS,

Sorry, I would disagree with you there. Average buyers would be able to tell the difference between a LRA and an IRS. They might not know why -- but they could feel it.

There just aren't enough enthusiasts to support the "engine in a box" mentality. IRS is a more mainstream solution (meaning it appeals to more people) these days, and with platform sharing, it shouldn't cost that much more.

I remember the Ford Mustang debate hearing initial rumors of it costing $500 more. Then, after everyone started complaining it wasn't in, then they starting through out $2k figures (of which I still would have paid if it was a good system). And that is with virtually no platform sharing. With all the GM vehicles that are expected to share the suspension architecture with the Camaro, it probably won't cost much more at all. Heck, it might even cost more to engineer a LRA system to fit within the platform.

I just dont trust them to produce a tough axle for the price the car is supposed to be at because of how we've been taking it in the ass for the last 25 years with the 3 and 4 gen Fbody's. and, what do you have to say about the GTO IRS? yeah, great piece. piece of SH$T. I work at a pont. dealership, and while I dont do axle's, I see them being turned away for service all the time becuause that "whine" is "normal" for that axle. and those are cars that are not built. some Im sure are beat'n on, but stil stock cars nonetheless.
back to my thoughts though, I would be all for the IRS IF its strong and wont add the the cost of the car.
I see your point though about the cost poss. not even being that much more due to how there goin to share the chassis. thats the best fricken idea theyve put into motion in a long time.

call me old fashion but id prefer a nice strong solid axle myself. people bitch about the way the f bodies drove but compared to what i was driving before mine... its like a caddy

irs is heavy.. i vote no.. i am happy with the 93-02 f-body live axle

irs is heavy.. i vote no.. i am happy with the 93-02 f-body live axle
Agree and disagree.

IRS = heavy? Yeah, probably ;).

Happy with the '82 - '02 live axle? :shrug: Not in the least :no: :rolleyes:.

It's about time we got something that can handle the torque being produced by the great engines GM decides to put into Camaros ..... and if IRS will handle even better than a live axle car, then it's just icing on the cake :).

If it is IFS with no option for solid I gusss I'll buy dodge.

Challenger is going to be IRS.

IRS unless GM put's a 9" in for me:)

If it is IFS with no option for solid I gusss I'll buy dodge.

See 'ya.

Screw it I guess I'll wait till cobras come down.

Screw it I guess I'll wait till cobras come down.

Why? It amazes me how some people can already hate something they know absolutely nothing about. No one has driven the new IRS system to see how it responds. It is amazing how resistant people can be to change. Kind of like when fuel injection was the new up and coming technology....

It will be really interesting to see how some peoples' responses will change once we have the opportunity to experience the drive and feel of the IRS.

Screw it I guess I'll wait till cobras come down.

why would you assume that a car that has production numbers kept artificially low would come down in price? If you want a solid axle that badly, why not buy a Mustang GT. You may even get a good deal and its a cool car.

Here is an 11 second Commodore with rear IRS I posted a while back for anyone who missed it

http://web.camaross.com/forums/showthread.php?t=500099&highlight=commodore

Mustang will probably be IRS by that time too. :lol: :p

Mustang will probably be IRS by that time too. :lol: :p

true, but two things

1 if he wanted one that badly he could get a Mustang with one now from the factory.

2 if all the cars go IRS and I think that is a good thing. I am willing to bet aftermarket will have kits to swap in a solid rear for drag racing and maybe more milder set ups for people who want them. They already have full drag rear kits with suspension and solid rears now for the classic cars.

why would you assume that a car that has production numbers kept artificially low would come down in price? If you want a solid axle that badly, why not buy a Mustang GT. You may even get a good deal and its a cool car.

Here is an 11 second Commodore with rear IRS I posted a while back for anyone who missed it

http://web.camaross.com/forums/showthread.php?t=500099&highlight=commodore

well, there's lots of 11 sec. Fbody's with stock rear axles. but how long will it hold is the question. did you pay attention to that car goin down the track? or just look at the time at the end. that car is all over that track, and thats not even that fast of a car. ofcourse hopefully the aftermarket will come to the rescue and fix the il-handleing stock suspension, and if the stock axles will put up with mid 11's Id be satisfied with that I guess.


and about the mustake's, Ford did it right by making the GT's solid axles, and the cobra's IRS. so you could make your own choice. thats all Im asking for. Im not saying you people shouldnt have IRS. Im only hoping that I can have solid rear axle, and not have to shell out large amounts of cash AFTER buying the car. then Id be in the same boat Im in now. where the hell am I goin to come up with $2500 for an aftermarket rear axle and Dshaft to match? its just alot harder to afford that way. thats all.

Personally I am looking forward to the IRS. I will be using this car as a daily driver, and I bet I will be able to count on one hand how many times I end up making it to the track. Persoanlly, I would rather have a car built to handle what I will use it for 95% of the time rather than a car built to handle what I will use it for 5% of the time.

I think it would be kind of cool though if GM could try and appeal to both sides by making a drag racer option. There seem to be a lot of people on here that would want a striped down solid rear axle car. If there is a great enough demand for it, then why not make a limited number of them....

thats how the car got so popular soo many years ago in the sixties. relativly cheap car that you could easily make go fast. thats what it should be today also in order for it to be more then just a cool car. if people can personalize it the way they want it, then it'll be easier to sell. IMO. but make it higher priced, and no options (ie GTO) and it'll only sell limited quantities.

however if it only comes with IRS that wont make me go away.

IRS= too heavy, too complicated, more crap to break.

Put a good solid axle under there or at least design the car so that it can be swapped in.

...Or let a solid axle coexist with an IRS option (a la SN95 Mustang) on higher performance package models (also including IMO, a V6 variant).

While this would require more R&D money, couldn't the case be made for both lower price point(s) as well as a wider market appeal.

Ford did it right by making the GT's solid axles, and the cobra's IRS.

They arent doing that anymore. The Shelby's axle is solid as well as the GT's. Is your rear on your 4th gen stock?

unfortunatly except for the gears and girdle. yup. as I said I cant justify/afford $2500 for a rear end at the moment. so no nitrous for me yet. :(

The Shelby's don't hook in the corners plus the're nose heavy. The disadvantage is the cars are tested on the streets of Detriot. They have a habit of making them to soft and mushy..
The progressive springs will help the camaro in cornering plus the bigger wheel and tire package is going after the "road race" market. The comment on 95 percent on the street 5 percent strip is how GM is looking at it. You don't take that big of a wheel to the drag strip and get it to bite like a 17inch wheel... plus you have 15inch brakes to work around

very true. that'll be hard to get a good tire under there for a drag application. hmmm.

It seems on one of the threads that most people are thinking more Road race applications. That seems to be GM's focus, where Ford is going straight line. I want to go door to door with one of the Parnelli Jones cars on one of the big tracks. The Camaro should have much better manners than the GT500 thus making it much easier and faster to drive. I think the foundation with the IRS will be there to build a great car from. I want to show the Blue oval guys it doesn't take a Vette to show them the way around a track. But to take the new cars Drag racing we'll just have to wait and see how well they work

I prefer to begin with IRS.. and I'll tell you why.

Chevy uses ****ty rearends in their cars.. so if you do decide to get serious.. you have to buy a $2500 aftermarket rearend setup anyways.. Well with an IRS car.. you would have to buy... a solid rearend aftermarket setup.. with a few extra things needed to install.. not a big deal. Not much more than you need to do with any serious racer.

For the average person IRS would be better for handling, and daily driving. It also will be fine for the average performance enthusiast in a drag racing environment who only wants to run 10's-11's in their daily driver.

For the person who has to cut 1.20's-1.40's.. they will likely have an all aftermarket modified rearend/suspension setup to begin with. Simple as that.

You don't see many solid axle cars with custom IRS setup's installed, simply because its not feasible.. it takes alot of work ot make an irs setup work well.. and there's alot of money involved.

Peace
Josh

and about the mustake's, Ford did it right by making the GT's solid axles, and the cobra's IRS. so you could make your own choice.

Sorry, but I might have to disagree with you there. Yes, in concept the idea of having a choice in SRA or IRS is a good one. However, the engineering and testing necessary would make it work in the real world is ridiculous. Plus, to make both work, you will have to make compromises in design for either (or both) systems.

The SN-95 IRS was a band-aid on a mid-70's architecture and could hardly be described as an ideal solution. But, since the chassis had been around so long (and Saleen did most of the IRS design work for their race cars), the engineering wasn't that expensive. To do it for the new Camaro, they would, in effect, have to create two different platforms. Test them both. Have two different sets of parts for the rear end, determine how many of each to make, reset the assembly line each time for the different rear end, etc. etc.

For a new car, that is too expensive, too time consuming and too many compromises for the small percentage that will actually take their cars drag racing hard enough to justify the SRA.

We would all love to tell manufacturers exactly how we want our specific car built, but, that just isn't going to happen. Besides, that is what the aftermarket is for.

The SN-95 IRS was a band-aid on a late-70's architecture and could hardly be described as an ideal solution.
Had to fix that for you

For a new car, that is too expensive, too time consuming and too many compromises for the small percentage that will actually take their cars drag racing hard enough to justify the SRA.

Naw, if the recent survey sent out by Ford is any indication (IRS, $200.00 option) its really not that bad, a few folks are thinking that something similar to the aussie control blade suspension might end up on the rear of the mustang (supposed to be a pretty good system) and then there is the plant where mustang is produced, somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but a FWD Mazda (6 IIRC) with IRS is produced along side the RWD Ford with SRA.

Ford said there is essentially 3 types of Mustang buyers (might hold true for Fbod buyers as well), one type didn't care what held up the rear, so long as it kept the gas tank from dragging on the ground, the second type prefered an IRS and the 3rd type wanted an SRA not only for drag racing, but among other things it was cheap to mod and very tough. Lucky for us SRA guys, the bean counters absolutely loved the 3rd type of mustang buyer. Hopefully Ford will get there collective crap together and offer some nice powerplants along with the SRA/IRS option, if they offered the TTV6 along with some nice V8 options in combination with the aforemention rear suspension choices, you could come up with some nice packages ranging from boulevard bruiser to an adept touring machine that is equally at home in the twisties (TTV6/IRS car).

I'm actually pretty optimistic about the Camaro having IRS. As long as it doesnt wheel hop like the 03/04 Cobras and GTO's, I'm fine with it. I have a feeling that the IRS will be stronger than the 7.5" 10 bolt we have, definitely an improvement. Remember, the 4th gen's are identical to the 3rd gens underneath. Back in 1982 a 7.5" 10 bolt and a tranny mounted torque arm were plenty to handle a 190hp 305.

There is another feature the 5th gens will have that's been absent for 30+ years: TRUE DUAL EXHAUST. :cool:

Jason

keep your fingers crossed for that one.

Oh Saleen, He built I believe 5 cars with IRS, none of which had any Mods for the IRS.The One I worked with was worse than factory. I hope he sticks to the dress ups and Transformers. I for one look forward to the potential the IRS give us. I know I'm the odd man but a 20 min. session on an open track at 130 mph plus tops a 12 second pass anyday. The new Zeta platform is going to open a lot of doors for the aftermarket. My biggest fear is the curb weight. Ford can't build a car without tacking on 3-4 hundred pounds. Case in point a 500 hp Mustang sounds great until you find it weighs 4000 lbs. Then the weight bias is nose heavy. I hope the boys with the bowties take que from that

Better pray for that LS7 option then, If all GM does is shove an S/C'd LS2 with no suspension mods or brake mods then your looking at probably looking at 100 to 150 pounds of extra weight with an air to water intercooler and supercharger rig, add in some nice brakes and that'll probably shoot to 150-200 lbs over the regular premium V8 car. You guys want a "mass neutral" car, its gonna cost you some bucks.

Better pray for that LS7 option then, If all GM does is shove an S/C'd LS2 with no suspension mods or brake mods then your looking at probably looking at 100 to 150 pounds of extra weight with an air to water intercooler and supercharger rig, add in some nice brakes and that'll probably shoot to 150-200 lbs over the regular premium V8 car. You guys want a "mass neutral" car, its gonna cost you some bucks.

there will be no LS7 anymore when the Camaro is being built

Slow down. a big brake kit from Baer ships at 88 lbs minus the stock pieces, maybe adding 40lbs . Though the car is showing 15 inch rotors hopefully with PBR calipers. I want to see what stock yeilds first

I'll opt for upgrading the suspension over a Blower. In Open track Horsepower is secondary, give me N/A anyway. With the cost of a GT500 at $65,000 I'm banking on a much better package for less money.
Plus you can lose a couple hundred pounds by losing the "creature comforts "
That's cheaper than power adders

We'll see what the starting point is first

I'm looking forward to reviving The Unfair Adavantage Chevy once had ......

I don't really want to see the IRS mostly becasue I don't think it will retain that "muscle car" feel. I don't know about the rest of you, but I didn't buy my car because it rode like a Cadillac. Exactly the opposite to be honest. I like feeling everything the car is doing, even the car hopping over a bump under hard acceleration or the rattles that seem to transmit through EVERYTHING. I'm all for the idea of the IRS, but I just don't think it will "feel" like an F-Body if GM goes that route.

I don't really want to see the IRS mostly becasue I don't think it will retain that "muscle car" feel. I don't know about the rest of you, but I didn't buy my car because it rode like a Cadillac. Exactly the opposite to be honest. I like feeling everything the car is doing, even the car hopping over a bump under hard acceleration or the rattles that seem to transmit through EVERYTHING. I'm all for the idea of the IRS, but I just don't think it will "feel" like an F-Body if GM goes that route. Ive Gotta Disagree with ya there I think that this car will diffinatively be a camaro Just with a Real 21st century touch unlike its counterpart the mustang the camaro remained on the same platform its whole life i welcome the changes and advancement that this new camaro brings :D

I don't really want to see the IRS mostly becasue I don't think it will retain that "muscle car" feel. I don't know about the rest of you, but I didn't buy my car because it rode like a Cadillac. Exactly the opposite to be honest. I like feeling everything the car is doing, even the car hopping over a bump under hard acceleration or the rattles that seem to transmit through EVERYTHING. I'm all for the idea of the IRS, but I just don't think it will "feel" like an F-Body if GM goes that route.

What if I loosen the bolts so it "feels" like its coming apart? :D

unlike its counterpart the mustang the camaro remained on the same platform its whole life

:confused: I'm just not getting it, conceptual plateform?

Why? It amazes me how some people can already hate something they know absolutely nothing about. No one has driven the new IRS system to see how it responds. It is amazing how resistant people can be to change. Kind of like when fuel injection was the new up and coming technology....

It will be really interesting to see how some peoples' responses will change once we have the opportunity to experience the drive and feel of the IRS.

I'm sure it will drive very nicely, and it won't bounce so much in bumpy corners.

I just don't like the extra weight or cost.

keep your fingers crossed for that one.

I swear I read that somewhere; I think it was LS1tech... If the GTO platform is designed for duals, I would think the Camaro will be as it should be similar, if not the same.

Plus it goes in line with my point about the IRS being stronger than our 10 bolts. In 1982, the hot engine was a 305 making around 175hp. Performance in factory cars had hit rock bottom, and general sentiment was more towards mpg. A factory single exhaust was simply not much of an issue. Fast forward to 1993 when the 4th gens came out. GM was in financial shambles and in no shape to redesign the f-body platform. Restyling the body and adding the LT1 was about as much they could invest in the car. Now with GM on the upswing financially, performance cars at an all time high on popularity, and the aftermarket breaking into new levels of support, GM will at least fulfill the basics even if they are a small matter. One of these basics happens to be true dual exhaust.

This is why I'm convinced it will happen. My fingers are still crossed though. ;)

Jason

I'm actually pretty optimistic about the Camaro having IRS. As long as it doesnt wheel hop like the 03/04 Cobras and GTO's, I'm fine with it. I have a feeling that the IRS will be stronger than the 7.5" 10 bolt we have, definitely an improvement. Remember, the 4th gen's are identical to the 3rd gens underneath. Back in 1982 a 7.5" 10 bolt and a tranny mounted torque arm were plenty to handle a 190hp 305.

There is another feature the 5th gens will have that's been absent for 30+ years: TRUE DUAL EXHAUST. :cool:

Jason

That is the biggest concern I have for the IRS: strength. If you look at GM IRS cars like the CTS-V, GTO and C5/C6s many people are breaking them. I've seen a lot of people on ls1tech claim that a 10 bolt is stronger than them so many are breaking.

That is the biggest concern I have for the IRS: strength. If you look at GM IRS cars like the CTS-V, GTO and C5/C6s many people are breaking them. I've seen a lot of people on ls1tech claim that a 10 bolt is stronger than them so many are breaking.

The Vette IRS isn't that much of an issue compared to the others. I think there have been some getting into the low 11's or high 10's on in their Vettes. You're right the CTS-V and GTO are problems, but I can't see GM making this mistake. They are redoing the GTO as well. Maybe I'm overly optimistic...

Jason

The Vette IRS isn't that much of an issue compared to the others. I think there have been some getting into the low 11's or high 10's on in their Vettes. You're right the CTS-V and GTO are problems, but I can't see GM making this mistake. They are redoing the GTO as well. Maybe I'm overly optimistic...

Jason

You're from Evansville eh? I was born and raised in Evansville before moving to Chicago and now Indy... What part of town do you live on?

You're from Evansville eh? I was born and raised in Evansville before moving to Chicago and now Indy... What part of town do you live on?

I'm from Newburgh and have been here my entire life. What part of Evansville are you from, school you graduated, etc? I graduated from Castle in 01 and USI 05. I also know a few who live up in Indy, most on the north side.

Jason

Um im afraid of change! altho the IRS is a great thing I'm affraid of change but i will be very happy to see how it does. I just dont want to work on it :(

I personally am not bias either way. GM is going todo what they want to do. If they put together a stripped down race version with a LRA then great. If not then great. The Camaro is still coming back as a RWD 8cyl sports car and it looks sweeeet!! For me that is plenty. Bless the aftermarket as they will swoop on in like with every other Camaro and make everyone happy.
I'm not knocking anyone else's opinion please don't mistake me...but this is mine..:D

Bless the aftermarket as they will swoop on in like with every other Camaro and make everyone happy.


If the L76 motor is offered, the aftermarket will be brimming with bolt on mods in no time, let alone stuff for the IRS if it ends up being wheel hop happy like the GTO's and 03/04 Cobras. I would love to be able to get an 09 Z28 as a daily driver and keep the SS as a street/strip car as it will be cammed pretty soon.

Jason

Better pray for that LS7 option then, If all GM does is shove an S/C'd LS2 with no suspension mods or brake mods then your looking at probably looking at 100 to 150 pounds of extra weight with an air to water intercooler and supercharger rig, add in some nice brakes and that'll probably shoot to 150-200 lbs over the regular premium V8 car. You guys want a "mass neutral" car, its gonna cost you some bucks.


Actually you are talking more like 75 lbs over the LS7 for a S/C 6.2. Which isn't that much considering the power potential of that engine. And an IRS which is supposed to be heavier than its solid axle counterpart should still even out some of the weight distribution.
As for the IRS, I am all for it. I have seen some low 1.5 sixty foot times with nothing more than $500 aftermarket halfshafts and lowering springs. Since $500 is far less than the $2500 plus I have spent for my 12 bolt and accompanying (sp?) suspension upgrades I don't think thats a bad deal. What's killing the rears in the GTO/CTS-V is a combination of the weight of the car and relatively weak springs. From recent rumors and sheer speculation I just don't see the car weighing as much as either of those two cars (even with FI and IRS).
I think everyone here is getting all hyped up over specs that aren't even established yet. We don't know for certain if its going to add weight, cost, or complexity yet. This whole car is being built from a clean sheet of paper and with the attention that GM is directing towards weight savings I am sure they have already addressed these issues.

Actually you are talking more like 75 lbs over the LS7 for a S/C 6.2. Which isn't that much considering the power potential of that engine. And an IRS which is supposed to be heavier than its solid axle counterpart should still even out some of the weight distribution.
As for the IRS, I am all for it. I have seen some low 1.5 sixty foot times with nothing more than $500 aftermarket halfshafts and lowering springs. Since $500 is far less than the $2500 plus I have spent for my 12 bolt and accompanying (sp?) suspension upgrades I don't think thats a bad deal. What's killing the rears in the GTO/CTS-V is a combination of the weight of the car and relatively weak springs. From recent rumors and sheer speculation I just don't see the car weighing as much as either of those two cars (even with FI and IRS).
I think everyone here is getting all hyped up over specs that aren't even established yet. We don't know for certain if its going to add weight, cost, or complexity yet. This whole car is being built from a clean sheet of paper and with the attention that GM is directing towards weight savings I am sure they have already addressed these issues.

I hope you're right. The new CTS is 200 pounds heavier than the old one, though, which is not promising...almost 3900 pounds for the base model. When it originally came out in 2002, it weighed about 3500.

I'm ecstatic that we're getting an IRS.



The negatives about LRA handling are only on bumpy/inconsistent surfaces.

Which describes pretty much every street, highway, autocross and road course I've been on.

Depends on the use. For those striclty running at the strip, a solid axle would be a better choice, but for about anything else, as long as the guts are solid, it will provide for a totally improved ride. Trust me, my cobra runs like a go-cart on steroids.

1991 RS-sold
1998 SS-sold
2004 KB Cobra aka: The Crusher ( I like bow ties, but she hauls the mail)
2010 top end Camaro :)

Let's hope they put a lot of attention into the details. IRS isn't necessarily immune to toe steer should you encounter a one-wheel bump or heave in the road. And if it can be felt on a low-mileage C5 during moderate to moderately hard cornering, there's room for improvement especially where a market segment that's assumed to be expecting greater sales is concerned.


Norm

The IRS will be a great thing. I have had both IRS/Solid axles, and my current O4 Cobra rides/handles way better than the solid axle cars I had. The Cobra needed upgraded bushings to handle the higher HP, and I'm not sure what the Vette's come stock with, or if they need stiffer bushings also? In the end, most people will enjoy the IRS.

I dig the IRS on the GTO. The GTO rides very well.

Honestly, I think that using a solid axle on the fifth gen would be a sad choice. Anything GM can do to make the Camaro ride better, and thus appeal to the masses, is fine by me. I hope GM can bring the Camaro to the market and sell each and every one.

I'm ecstatic that we're getting an IRS.


X2!!!

The point I was going to make about "stock" LRA's and how you would need to spend 2500+ to make them a serious racer has already been made. I personally have went through 3 "stock" LRA and finally spent the $$$$ for a 9" and that 9" weighs a hell of alot more than the "stock" piece.

I cant wait to see the IRS and how it handles. you should make this thread a poll and ill put 100 bucks on it that the ppl that want IRS will out rank the ppl that want LRA's 4:1. GM's second smartest move when they designed the camaro was to put an IRS in it.... :D

i would have to say i dont like it too much, but the vette has it and it works for them, but then again the gto had it too and look where their at.

it would be fine IF they make it as strong as the mustangs IRS. but I bet axle's would be just as expensive as a 9" is on the 4 gen's.


and what the hell is an "LRA"? dont you mean SRA as in solid rear axle?

it would be fine IF they make it as strong as the mustangs IRS. but I bet axle's would be just as expensive as a 9" is on the 4 gen's.


and what the hell is an "LRA"? dont you mean SRA as in solid rear axle?

Live Rear Axle

i would rather have that than IRS

oh, Never heard of it called that.

i think irs is geared more towards twistys it would be nice to offer soild and irs but it wont happon and thats the downfall imo. the camaro was the drag car and the vette was the road race car i always thought. not anymore tho i guess.

the camaro has always handled well, not really a drag car. the vette is just a true sports car where the camaro is the more affordable 2+2.

It's more complicated than an either/or proposition: Figure cost, weight, complexity, development costs, buyer perception

it's nice that GM is moving into the 1970's finally. I like the idea of IRS, as long as they don't scrimp on it, and build it correctly, and strong enough, the first time. This being GM we are talking about, the chances are pretty slim.....

Plenty of manufacturers are building IRS rear-wheel drive cars, but they are typically pretty pricey- Porche, Ferrari, Mercedes,- If GM can't build this at reasonable cost, it won't sell many of them, and that is not how the game is supposed to be played. They need to spend the money up front to build it strong, tuned right to handle and be durable. Anything less is just going to be another nail in the coffin.

i think ALL RWD cars are IRS now, except the Mustang. its going to be a tough price point to meet with the level of performance you guys are expecting. off the top of my head the cheapest IRS cars were the Cobra, GTO, Charger/Magnum/300C, S2000, RX8 and Miata. You guys want more performance than an 03/04 Cobra ($35-38k new in 03/04), while weighing less, in a new car with a new platform (with better crash/mileage/quality/warranty/smog standards) at a substantially cheaper price (a price CLOSER to the GT Miata). tough crowd.

i want my axel like i like my women, cheap, light weight, and can take the abuse... lol if they can make an IRS that can compete with SRA in all catagories than bring it on, if not then id rather have the SRA

Yeah, you're right- we want it all- extreme performance at a price that is inexpensive enough so that GM can sell them by the tens of thousands. Could start a new surge in excitement, where all the enthusiast's magazines are raving about the "new Camaro" Might wake up the General's bottom line. Remember, this is a company that kills off car models if they sell 'only' 60,000 or 70,000 units a year.

I feel the same way as some of the others- I don't care as much about IRS as I do about strong, reliable performance at a cheap price, something that Chevy used to be good at. The IRS sounds nice in theory, but if it adds a couple thousand to the bottom line of the car, that is two grand that I won't be spending on upgraded wheels, or performance exhaust, whatever.

Do it right, and for the right price- is that too much for GM to understand?

did GM not do it right with the 4th Gen fbody? what didnt they do right? list off what they didnt do right, and write down how much more you're willing to pay for them to have done it "right?"

thats easy. 7.5" ten bolt. $1000 for upgraded 8.5" 10 bolt would seem like a very reasonable price to pay for the 8.5" they used in the second gen (and alot of new trucks to present)

optional low performance 8 cyl. to cut cost on ins. premiums for people who either dont need the fastest car around, but want a v8, AND more importantly for the people who will build the car enough to just replace/sell the orig. small v8. example, my 81 formula. it had a 305 chevy, how easy was it to swap in the big block I had in the car? and still only paid the ins. company for a "small" v8.

alot of people couldnt afford a 4gen TA or formula due to ins. doubleling what the car payment was a month. v6 to v8 swaps are possible, but totally out of the question for most for many years due to the cost/complexity of the swap.

as for the price willing to pay, make it -$1000, and +$1000 for all the big cube Z28's. say, 5.3 vs 6.3 so the 6.3 would be $2K option. but STILL AVAILABLE for those who DO want to pay for it.

look at the GTO's, no options, no flexability, no unigue'ness (is that a word?) all the same, diff. colors and T56 or auto. oh, cool hood, or no cool hood.

it would be fine IF they make it as strong as the mustangs IRS.

You call that hobbled up rear end strong????????????? Things in Fbody land must have been worse than I thought when it came to weak sauce rear ends.

or everything for drag racing, the IRS is great. there are some softy issues, but our calibrated, urethane bushings handles this quite well.

Drag racing is still OK. Lots of G8 guys, however, are experiencing wheel hop. There is just too much softness back there. All drag racers absolutely at a minimum, replace the rear differential mounting bushings and the rear cradle mount insert bushings. This alone will reduce wheel hop, and excess looseness a serious amount.

With the exception of the coil over height, the rear Camaro is basically identical to the G8. We have lots of experience with this.

I am really looking forward to the Camaro and what we can do with it

mike
dms

it should come with a 12 bolt as a base and have the IRS as an option for the $1000 or whatever it costs more than putting a live axle in there. it just kinda sucks to buy a car and have to take stuff out rather than put stuff in. at least give those who want the cheaper live axle the option of saving that money and getting what they want.

the challenger doesnt offer cloth seats, manual windows and locks, and a low end stereo with the V8. some people dont want those expensive and heavy options, give us a blank sheet of paper and let us decide what we want to spend the more money on to put in.

i was at hte detroit autoshow last night and all 2 of the camaros had 20s and 1 had 21s. some people like that look, but i dont want or need those big expensive rims that require very expensive tires. give us the option of something smaller like 17s or 18s, stop forcing the consumer to pay a ton of money for something they would leave out if it would save them some money. GM needs all the customers it can get right now, and getting those few who want a stripper version should be seen as an opportunity to make money, bceause it is easy for them to roll one off the factory floor without putting all those extras in it.

If the new z06 can run 11s with IRS i have no problem with the new Camaro being IRS. Its about time it upgrades.

+1:yes:

I chatted with Pete for an hour last night. sounds like a great event, and the GM cars did very well. Some of the LXs had some minor issues, but all in all, a great day.

The skid pad tests were quite remarkable!. 2 of the G8s with extreme Xas turned 1.03 and 1.05g's. Eric's Pedderized 300c turned .99g's on 20 inch street tires, and even our HHR with Xa'a turned a .97g. Our 2 Pedders drivers did a fantastic job.

Pete's G8 was 25 seconds faster than a Porsche with racing tires? More to come. This event, without a doubt, has shown that Pedders suspension, works well for the street, and the track!


these tests are great, and we now know what it takes to make a Camaro be able to pull over 1.0 g's

mike
dms
mike
dms

If the new z06 can run 11s with IRS i have no problem with the new Camaro being IRS. Its about time it upgrades.

Try 8s! A couple of our Dealers are running IRS Vette's in the 8s with some upgrades to the powertrain including our engine and trans mounts. They also use our Drag Spec Coil Overs, Drag Rear Sway Bar (to tie the rear together and make it behave a bit more like a solid axle), and spherical control arm bearings.

Another interesting thing we've found is that under hard launches the IRS cars get a ton of toe-in causing scrub and ultimately MPH and E.T., this is where bushings are so important. The Camaro uses huge rubber bushings that work well for going to the grocery store but aren't so good for performance or spirited driving.

HERE (http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c5-forced-induction-nitrous/2350759-ecs-novi-2000-402-ci-shakedown-day-1-8-88-154-a.html) is a link to a post done by East Coast Supercharging and HERE (http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c6-forced-induction-nitrous/2353283-ips-built-twin-turbo-car-goes-9-04-157-a.html) is a link to an IPS Motorsports thread.

I've had the opportunity to drive soild axle cars on the drag strip and road course as well as IRS cars; I have to say I love my old school muscle but the IRS performs better all around.

We're always happy to help with suspension and track set-up. We also have a very strong Dealer network including some of the best shops in the country. Please feel free to call or email us anytime and have a great day!

Kind regards,

Jordan

There are some additional challenges the Camaro offers in terms of handling that are not present with the G8. The Camaro has much more understeer than a G8. Adding monster tires to the back end without making other appropriate changes, will just add to the understeer concerns. I think the Camaro is heavier than the G8, but the big issue is the wheel base differences.

But the independant rear end is just fine and seriously handles better than a straight axle for a road race environment. The rear suspension assembly on a Camaro is seriously fine, and just needs some help reducing movements. Now adding 200-300hp at the rear wheels may require some updated heavy duty power train components, like axles, driveshafts, rear ends, etc, but the suspension link setup is quite excellent. Frank Beck of Rocksand Racing, one of our distributors is running a Pedders equipped IRS suspension in his GTO and he will be in the 8 second runs very shortly. He is in the low 9's now running at 62% throttle. Parachute is now installed and he can be back on the track and go for it. But he has highly modified ALL of the power train hardware with our Pedders bushings and coils and such. So even though a straight axle is superior to a IRS for drag racing, with the appropriate setups, IRS can work very well at the drags. It appears the biggest issues with the Vettes with some higher hp is in fact the rear end blowing apart. 2 years ago, there was a Vette/GTO drag event at Infinion Raceway. 3 Vettes got towed away for their rear ends blowing apart.

mike
dms

But the independant rear end is just fine and seriously handles better than a straight axle for a road race environment. The rear suspension assembly on a Camaro is seriously fine, and just needs some help reducing movements.
Does this also mean that compliance in the various brackets is being addressed? I've heard where suspension brackets aren't always as rigid as one might think, perhaps under 20,000 lb/in in extreme cases.


Norm

Does this also mean that compliance in the various brackets is being addressed? I've heard where suspension brackets aren't always as rigid as one might think, perhaps under 20,000 lb/in in extreme cases.


Norm

Hey Norm,

Not sure exactly what you mean by "suspension brackets" but if you mean what is traditionally called Sub frame connectors, then we can chat about these. Sub frame connectors are really popular for the older Camaros and even the new Mustangs because they both have a huge amount of twisting. Welding in subframe connectors with hi hp is necessary on these vehicles. With a Zeta Platform, however, sub frame connectors are not really needed unless maybe you are running some off the chart rear hp. Even the Hennessey Camaro that will have the ZR1 platform will not need them. they will, however, need all the bushings, updated coils and dampers to maximize on putting down the serious hp.

So do suspension brackets = subframe connectors?

Also, for very serious driving like autocrossing, road racing, etc, a strut tower bar is a must. The problem right now, however, is the placement of the hood shock does not allow room for them. GM Racing, put a strut tower bar on their GS Camaro, if you need some validation for this. But the ZETA platforms is one of the strongest platforms out there, and is vastly superior to the Mustang, that needs more brackets and subframe connectors than just about any other vehicle out there.

mike
dms

Does this also mean that compliance in the various brackets is being addressed? I've heard where suspension brackets aren't always as rigid as one might think, perhaps under 20,000 lb/in in extreme cases.


Norm

Based on our testing the factory suspension brackets are very strong and this wouldn't be a concern to me. We've run solid spherical bearings in these cars now during heavy track testing and we've got a 2010 Camaro that will be running in the NASA American Iron Series later this year into 2010. They are going to run with the factory pick up points for now and we'll probably end up developing a new subframe with altered Geometry for 2011.

But the ZETA platforms is one of the strongest platforms out there, and is vastly superior to the Mustang, that needs more brackets and subframe connectors than just about any other vehicle out there.

mike
dms

Mike,

That's because it's a Ford! :leaving: :lol:

Jordan

Mike,

That's because it's a Ford! :leaving: :lol:

Jordan

hey Jordon,

I have "played" with the new Mustang and am truly shocked by the movement when driving in a spirited manner. I am not that good of a driver, but if I can feel it, why don't the magazines feel it? Many of them rate the Mustang better than the Camaro. I totally disagree. I guess it is like politics; he who pays the most advertising money gets the lead. LOL

mike
dms

It appears the biggest issues with the Vettes with some higher hp is in fact the rear end blowing apart. 2 years ago, there was a Vette/GTO drag event at Infinion Raceway. 3 Vettes got towed away for their rear ends blowing apart.

mike
dms

The Vette presents a unique set of issues. The engine is connected to the rear mounted trans and diff via the torque tube. There is a lot of deflection between the engine and the trans which caused those failures. We've developed engine and trans/diff mounts that have minimized the deflection and other companies have made braces that keep the trans and diff together. This is the latest product we've developed for the Vette's, the "next" weak link

http://www.pfadtracing.com/photos/data/518/medium/ds-large2.jpg

The ECS Vette that we support suspension wise ran an 8.88 at 57%. The Corvette IRS record is 8.5? and ECS is expecting to crush that mark. :cool:

Jordan

hey Jordon,

I have "played" with the new Mustang and am truly shocked by the movement when driving in a spirited manner. I am not that good of a driver, but if I can feel it, why don't the magazines feel it? Many of them rate the Mustang better than the Camaro. I totally disagree. I guess it is like politics; he who pays the most advertising money gets the lead. LOL

mike
dms

Just like the F-150 even though the Silverado is twice the truck! :lol:

Jordan

So do suspension brackets = subframe connectors?
No. I'm talking about the chassis brackets that the suspension pivot bolts pass through and locate the chassis sides of the various links. Depending on the actual details, these things may not be all that rigid, and might be moving by as much as 1/16" under heavy load. So what I was getting at is that just stiffening up the bushings or replacing them with rod ends is not always the complete solution. Apparently the new Camaro's local chassis structure is better in this case than in others. That <20,000 lb/in number is something I got from an OE automotive engineer on another forum, without a specific platform being identified.

The Fox/SN95/New Edge Mustangs are somewhere between damp and wet noodles in comparison to either the new Camaro or the S197, but I don't know how those last two cars compare.


Norm

hey Jordon,

I have "played" with the new Mustang and am truly shocked by the movement when driving in a spirited manner. I am not that good of a driver, but if I can feel it, why don't the magazines feel it? Many of them rate the Mustang better than the Camaro. I totally disagree. I guess it is like politics; he who pays the most advertising money gets the lead. LOL

mike
dms
You've got my curiosity going - would you describe this movement as the car being unusually sensitive to throttle steering while cornering hard?


Norm

No. I'm talking about the chassis brackets that the suspension pivot bolts pass through and locate the chassis sides of the various links. Depending on the actual details, these things may not be all that rigid, and might be moving by as much as 1/16" under heavy load. So what I was getting at is that just stiffening up the bushings or replacing them with rod ends is not always the complete solution. Apparently the new Camaro's local chassis structure is better in this case than in others. That <20,000 lb/in number is something I got from an OE automotive engineer on another forum, without a specific platform being identified.

The Fox/SN95/New Edge Mustangs are somewhere between damp and wet noodles in comparison to either the new Camaro or the S197, but I don't know how those last two cars compare.


Norm

There are 4 large bushings in mounting the cradle to the body. On a G8, there is as much as 13-15mm movement the cradle assembly will have from the body. the Camaro bushings are a little more robust but still need upgrading which Pedders will do. To do it right, we have sent an entire rear cradle to Pedders engineering in Au, to make sure it is done correctly. Other than the rear cradle bushings, and the lower outer control arm and sway bar bends, everything else is off the shelf Zeta. Pedders has done more testing on Zeta suspension, than I think GM has. Zeta has been in Au for 3 years now and Pedders does a huge amount of business with the Holden Dealers. If assembly is not correct, you can induce rear bump steer with this platform, so you do truly need some knowledge for sure. But the rear platform is an exceptionaly fine design. We just need to take the "gramma affect" soft ride controls, and allow you to take advantage of what she can do. Case in point is taking Pete's G8 from a .93g skid pad to a 1.05g skid pad. So we know how to do it.

thanks
mike
dms

hey Jordon,

I have "played" with the new Mustang and am truly shocked by the movement when driving in a spirited manner. I am not that good of a driver, but if I can feel it, why don't the magazines feel it? Many of them rate the Mustang better than the Camaro. I totally disagree. I guess it is like politics; he who pays the most advertising money gets the lead. LOL

mike
dms


Oh, but it's 300 pounds lighter. Now we know why.

This thread has gotten really interesting! Keep it up, guys!