The Ultimate Driving Experience. WOW!

I was lucky enough to be invited to BMW's Ultimate Driving Experience today. Oh man!! I'm sure most of you are already going bleh, but man oh man, these Bavarians really have their crap together. Unbelievable balance, steering and braking. No wonder the whole world is always trying to benchmark these cars.

The high point for me, was hot laps in the 335i Coupe (Turbo). Unlike some other driving events where your speed is closely scrutized and limited, at BMW's event, their is no speed limit on the autocross track. You are not only allowed, you are encouraged, to go just as fast as you can possibly go and push the car as hard as possible.....and the course was quite large for an autocross event. You get 3 consecutive laps per car, so you really get the opportunity to build some speed. The 335 coupe is one freaking awesome car. It's so easy to drive ridiculously fast. In fact the faster you go, the better it is. And it is so virtually unflappable. As were the the 530i and even the X3 I drove.

BTW, regarding that X3.....I drove it around the track at 10/10ths (maybe even 11/10ths ;) ). Incredible. Pretty mind blowing when you consider that this thing is a little SUV. Anyway, as I finished my laps with it and pulled into the pits to wait for the next available 335, I took a close look at the tires. There was abit of wear apparent on the outer shoulder of the front tires, but not too much. I asked the instructor if they had gone through alot of tires this weekend. He said no, all these cars still had the same tires they came with - no tire changes. :shock: It takes fantastic chassis balance to achieve that.


So flame away bro's. But if you've never driven a BMW really hard....you've got nothing to say to me.

There's one thing I've come to learn about automobiles. It's one thing to love a company (GM) and it's another thing to appreciate the automobile for what it is.

If a company produces a fantastic vehicle such as the Beemers, I'm not going to hate on it. I'd appreciate it and have as much fun as you did today, but it's another thing to know you have GM DNA in your blood and know where your true heart lies.

It's like when you go to a bar (in your case the BMW driving experience) and have a cute little bartender that's hanging around all night but in the end you know deep down your commited to your significant other back at home.

That may have came off as stupid, but hopefully it helps illustrate my point.

Amazing what you can do when cost is no object. :p

But I would love to do that, GMs auto show in motion is cool, but they get quite testy if you chirp the tires. :rolleyes:

This is why BMW is such a revered name. They have awesome cars!!!

There's one thing I've come to learn about automobiles. It's one thing to love a company (GM) and it's another thing to appreciate the automobile for what it is.

If a company produces a fantastic vehicle such as the Beemers, I'm not going to hate on it. I'd appreciate it and have as much fun as you did today, but it's another thing to know you have GM DNA in your blood and know where your true heart lies.

It's like when you go to a bar (in your case the BMW driving experience) and have a cute little bartender that's hanging around all night but in the end you know deep down your commited to your significant other back at home.

That may have came off as stupid, but hopefully it helps illustrate my point.

As you know Josh, my daily driver is IMO, the closest thing available domestically to a BMW. A Y43, 18" wheel performance pkg., 6 speed, 3.6L, CTS....and now fitted with a CTS-V exhaust. Essentially, the baddest ass CTS, short of the V. In most regards, I find it's performance impressive. But let me compare it to a 5 series, which is closer to it's size than a 3.

I think my CTS's chassis dynamics are great, but BMW really nailed the ride/handling equation better on their car. The steering is excellent on my car, but perhaps not quite as direct as the 5. My HF 3.6 is a thoroughly modern V6, however it's not as smooth or sweet as the Bimmer's I6. I could go on about brakes, interior, etc.

Why do I say this? No, it's not to badmouth my car, but it is to illustrate that Caddy/GM needs to sweat afew more details to get to BMW's level. Of course, you're going to spend maybe 10 grand or so more for a 5 than for a CTS, and I realize that.

Well, I am a GM guy, but I do currently own a 94 530i. For its time, it does handle very well, and although it is only about 225hp, you don't feel underwhelmed. The newer BMWs I have driven were all this way. They never blow you away with their performance, but you look down and you are taking a corner at 60 when the sign says 35....

I will admit though there was nothing like the first time I drove my brothers V, even with the Run-flats the thing just stuck. I really want to drive a 335i though, almost did a couple weeks back, but decided to not because I would have wanted to sign papers probably.

Well, I am a GM guy, but I do currently own a 94 530i. For its time, it does handle very well, and although it is only about 225hp, you don't feel underwhelmed. The newer BMWs I have driven were all this way. They never blow you away with their performance, but you look down and you are taking a corner at 60 when the sign says 35....

I will admit though there was nothing like the first time I drove my brothers V, even with the Run-flats the thing just stuck. I really want to drive a 335i though, almost did a couple weeks back, but decided to not because I would have wanted to sign papers probably.

I know what you mean about speed. At the event, I took a 530i out on the road. I got on it alittle bit and was shocked when I glanced down at the speedo, and the needle was going past 100 mph.* It's stunning how effortlessly you can build speed in these cars.



*Disclaimer: (If you are a represenative of local law enforcement, the insurance industry or BMW....I am completely full of BS and am prone to spinning tall tales. ;) )

GMs auto show in motion is cool, but they get quite testy if you chirp the tires. :rolleyes:

Actually, I drove their course in Vegas last week, and was encouraged to flog the new Corvettes I drove. Spun off the line, slid in the corners, and a good time was had by all. The course is located right behind the Sahara off Tropicana Blvd. Warning: You must take AND PASS a breathalyzer before taking the wheel.

Actually, I drove their course in Vegas last week, and was encouraged to flog the new Corvettes I drove. Spun off the line, slid in the corners, and a good time was had by all. The course is located right behind the Sahara off Tropicana Blvd. Warning: You must take AND PASS a breathalyzer before taking the wheel.


lucky you.. a buddy of mine got kicked out for kicking the tail out in an STS.. for a split second.. recovered it no problem


i got yelled at for taking the turns in the vette with one hand on the wheel, and the other out the window :rolleyes:

My buddy has a 2001 BMW M3 and we swapped cars for a day, and I was extremely impressed with the smoothness and confidence inspiring steering feel. I didn't like the gear box, but everything else was awesome. Getting back into my car made me feel sad, but good at the same time, knowing it was at least faster in a straight line and cost $20k less :)

I'd still take the M though, any day.

Speaking of the M3. I wonder why BMW developed a new 300 hp turbo motor for the 335i and didn't just use a version of the old M3's normally aspirated, 333hp I6.

Not that I have any complaints on the turbo motor....just wondering.

Speaking of the M3. I wonder why BMW developed a new 300 hp turbo motor for the 335i and didn't just use a version of the old M3's normally aspirated, 333hp I6.

Not that I have any complaints on the turbo motor....just wondering.
Broader torque curve, less revs and less noise.

Its the same reasoning behind why a lot of sedans use 200hp V6's compared to a 200hp inline 4s.

BTW, regarding that X3.....I drove it around the track at 10/10ths (maybe even 11/10ths ;) ). Incredible. Pretty mind blowing when you consider that this thing is a little SUV.

Based off the 3-series right? That might explain why it was so fun to toss around.

lucky you.. a buddy of mine got kicked out for kicking the tail out in an STS.. for a split second.. recovered it no problem


i got yelled at for taking the turns in the vette with one hand on the wheel, and the other out the window :rolleyes:

Now that I think about it, what was more ridicolous was that in the truck section... people were taking escalades and hummers around corners at sixty next to a wall and no one blinked an eye...

Based off the 3-series right? That might explain why it was so fun to toss around.

Yes. Although it sits high, like any SUV, BMW brought the center of mass lower, by fitting the powertrain afew inches lower. It also has a near 50/50 front to rear balance.

I love BMWs, but as a friend once said,

"You can be a perfectly nice person AND own a BMW, but when people see those twin kidneys under the blue and white emblem, you are automatically going to be labeled a stupid rich snob."

I love BMWs, but as a friend once said,

"You can be a perfectly nice person AND own a BMW, but when people see those twin kidneys under the blue and white emblem, you are automatically going to be labeled a stupid rich snob."

I betcha GM would love to have those "stupid rich snobs", spend some money in their stores. And why would a "stupid rich snob", who may not even know much about cars, want to drop some EXTRA cash on a BMW? Why? Because it's a damned status symbol... that's why.

I suspect that there are some people who buy a Bimmer, who couldn't tell the difference in chassis dynamics between a 3 series and a Kia. But they cough up the cash for them anyway, don't they? That's because the enthusiasts who rave about them are opinion leaders. As long as BMW keeps satisfying - NO make that - thrilling, this enthusiast/opinion leader group, the poseurs will always be standing in line with open wallets. Pretty good plan, if you ask me.

BTW, no offence, but your friend sounds like a snob.

I always get the "ohhh you have a BMW.... wow I never knew you were had so much cash" and all of that BS...

my response " dude, it's a 94. you drive a brand new pickup. it cost 4 times what this did."

My biggest problem with owning one, is alot of the guys around my age who own E36/46 and E34/39's ARE snobs. Head over to a Bimmer board sometime. You get a good amount of them. Not saying the total board is, but you seem to get a special quality snob there.

I think my CTS's chassis dynamics are great, but BMW really nailed the ride/handling equation better on their car. The steering is excellent on my car, but perhaps not quite as direct as the 5. My HF 3.6 is a thoroughly modern V6, however it's not as smooth or sweet as the Bimmer's I6. I could go on about brakes, interior, etc.

I do hope that the racing experience Caddy is getting with the CTSv will make Sigma II that much better. A Pratt and Miller rep told us that out of the GTO.R, C6-R and CTSv-r the CTS is the cloest thing to stock, so what they learn they should be able to directly apply that to the new platform.

BTW, no offence, but your friend sounds like a snob.[/QUOTE]

None taken, and your point is valid. As I said, I love BMWs, they are fantastic machines... but I'll take the mulleted IROC stereotype over the rich jerk one. I know that puts me in the minority, but whatever...

None taken, and your point is valid. As I said, I love BMWs, they are fantastic machines... but I'll take the mulleted IROC stereotype over the rich jerk one. I know that puts me in the minority, but whatever...

Honestly, I'm not into that whole stereotype thing when it comes to cars. I love BMW's, but I also have an IROC-Z. I used to love our old '98 Caravan - talk about a stereotype - but I just thought it was an excellent vehicle, and I drove it with glee.

I've met alot of really cool BMW and Porsche guys and some Camaro and Mustang guys that were real A-holes......and visa versa.

Anyways, in a perfect world, my Camaro would drive perfectly - like a BMW.

Did you drive the latest 5-series?

A recent Wheels magazine comparison between the VE Calais V V8, BMW 550i and Merc E500 put the Calais V ahead of the 550i for ride and handling although the E500 scored top marks for the most comfortable ride.

Just thought some future US Zeta owners would be interested! ;)

GM could learn a bit from these guys.

being largely owned by the quandt family (and, therefore, no debilitating quarterly reporting to deal with), it can make decisions for the good of the brand or the engineering without being predicted profit being the sole priority.

someone posted that it was amazing what you can do with money. and yet...

BMW essentially has only two platforms - the 3-series and the 5-series.

so good are the chassis engineers that everything spins off from there.

the 3 gives you the 1, the 3, the 3 coupe and convertible, the Z4, the X3 and the smaller M cars.

the 5 gives you the 5, the 7, the 6 and the X5, plus something else in the pipe.

they've made mistakes: i-drive is still rubbish, the M cars don't have brakes that are porsche-strong and some of their ideas on steering feedback aren't ideal (the insistence on hydraulic steering on M cars for one, when the Z4 is designed for the electronic system).

yet they make huge money per car because they have a lovely, concise, integrated business model.

just drove a 335i from italy to england and back, and you really wouldn't want much more in a car. it's brilliant. am now in a Z4 M Coupe and that thing's a jet (M3 in-line six).

Did you drive the latest 5-series?

A recent Wheels magazine comparison between the VE Calais V V8, BMW 550i and Merc E500 put the Calais V ahead of the 550i for ride and handling although the E500 scored top marks for the most comfortable ride.

Just thought some future US Zeta owners would be interested! ;)

Well that's very encouraging, because the 530i I drove, felt so darned near perfect that it was alsmost unreal.

I absolutely love the new M5. If I could afford it, and have only one car, that'd be it.

With that being said, the M6 is supposed to perform slightly better than the M5 in all categories. It's BMW's most expensive coupe available and you'd expect it to perform the best.

In Car And Driver's Lightning lap, the M6 ran a 3:10.0 lap time.

The 350Z Track model went 3:12.5. I don't know if that's sad for the top of the line BMW M6, or impressive for the 350Z. Not to mention, the 350z in that test had the old VQ 35 engine (probably making an SAE rated HP of ~290). The new VQ35HR (or whatever it is) makes SAE 306hp. Should be pretty impressive.

Mike

Speaking of the M3. I wonder why BMW developed a new 300 hp turbo motor for the 335i and didn't just use a version of the old M3's normally aspirated, 333hp I6.

Not that I have any complaints on the turbo motor....just wondering.


Fuel economy. The M3 got hit with a gas guzzler tax. The 335i gets 3-4 mpg more. Also the M3 engine needed an iron block because of the bore spacing.

Remember too that in Europe, the auto mfrs have to improve their fleet fuel economy as part of a CO2 reduction program.

Well that's very encouraging, because the 530i I drove, felt so darned near perfect that it was alsmost unreal.

So what do you like better, the 5 or the 3? Would you have considered a rear drive, smaller-than-CTS Caddy?

Well that's very encouraging, because the 530i I drove, felt so darned near perfect that it was alsmost unreal.

Have a read of this article... especially the bit in bold text.

Record Sales Month For Holden Special Vehicles

Holden Special Vehicles
1 November 2006
www.hsv.com.au

Press Release - Holden Special Vehicles today announced October 2006 as a record month for the high performance car company.

More than 490 retail deliveries were registered in Australia and New Zealand in October, well above the previous monthly record of 436 (December 2004).

Managing Director Phil Harding said the result was a vote of confidence in HSV following a fantastic E series launch and the excellent performance of the exclusive HSV dealer network.

“With 491 retail deliveries in October, we have sold 55 more vehicles than our next best month ever”, Phil Harding said.

“Demand is set to continue based on incoming orders. October was also a record month for production, with 515 cars dispatched to dealers. We have increased production by 50% to keep pace with demand".

“Year to date deliveries now stand at 2632. Our performance this year is exactly to plan, with an orderly run down of production and the sale of outgoing models, followed by a rapid and controlled ramp up of the exciting new E Series”, Harding said.

Mr Harding said HSV was receiving tremendous traffic through dealerships from both its loyal customer base and new buyers.

“I am particularly pleased with the level of interest from ‘Euro’ owners”, Harding said.

“We’re seeing owners of premium European models switching across to the E series based on the extraordinary value, level of performance and high-end specifications across all three vehicles”.

Phil Harding said HSV were continuing to show real leadership in the high performance niche vehicle segment with solid sales performances year after year, setting the standard for performance, technology and value.

“This early local success gives us great confidence for the overseas export potential of both the E series and other vehicle opportunities”, Harding said.

So what do you like better, the 5 or the 3? Would you have considered a rear drive, smaller-than-CTS Caddy?

That's a tough one. I like them both. I think that if you are looking for more of a "family sized" sedan, the 5 is hard to beat. BTW, the 5 seems generally more enthusiast focused than my CTS. On my CTS, it almost seems like Cadillac wants to target both me and the South Florida retired lady with the same car. Case and point: the steering wheel. The top 1/3 of my steering wheel is a polished wood grain. I hate it. It's slippery. Not the best thing for spirited driving. I can't imagine that this one would have slipped by BMW.

Anyway, had Caddy (or for that matter Chevy or Pontiac), offered a 3 Series sized car - I definitely would have considered it. In fact, before I bought my CTS I seriously considered a 3 series.

GM probably has double or triple the engineers that BMW has (and ten times as many bean counters!) They COULD build a great enthusiast's car, they just choose to build the main-stream crap that they do- car design by commitee.
BMW builds cars like you are actually goint to drive them. Drive them hard, in a hurry. If you just want an appliance to impress your friends, or pick up the dry cleaning, it will work, but, if you want to take it out and drive the wheels off of it, it will do that, too. No apololgys, no excuses.
GM needs to have some world-class cars, something for the press to rave about, something for the car guys to lust after. The Cadillac is getting close- a couple of decades ago, the were the best- period. Rolls Royce used to use GM transmissions- They went through some dismal years of over-stuffed jokes with flaccid suspension and no performance, but it looks like they are trying to find their way back- Let's hope GM gets it's act together before they get bought up by some other company, like what happened to Chrysler...
Other than the Vette, what enthusiast's cars does the General build? Not everybody wants a 2-seater- Not much out there pulling me into the Chevy dealer.

Other than the Vette, what enthusiast's cars does the General build? Not everybody wants a 2-seater- Not much out there pulling me into the Chevy dealer.
Just to name a few of the more exceptional examples:

Cobalt SS Supercharged

Solstice GXP

Ion Redline

Grand Prix GXP

Sky Redline

GTO

Other than the Vette, what enthusiast's cars does the General build? Not everybody wants a 2-seater- Not much out there pulling me into the Chevy dealer.

You've got to be kidding. :rolleyes:

Supercharged Cobalt SS
Impala & Monte Carlo SS
Trailblazer SS
GTO
Solstice & Sky GXP
Grand Prix GXP
CTS-V
STS-V
XLR-V

Just to name a few of the more exceptional examples:

Cobalt SS Supercharged

Solstice GXP

Ion Redline

Grand Prix GXP

Sky Redline

GTO

Like Wild Willy said, not much in the way of Chevys. If your performance needs are not met by the Cobalt SS or the Corvette...you're done at the Chevy store. There are no other serious efforts.

Hopefully, with the Camaro, and new Impala and Malibu, that will all change. And speaking of Camaro - while we've got about a half a dozen or so threads going, regarding how to mod a 500 hp or 600 hp Camaro - to ummm, get more power, I personally am very interested in how the base Camaro will be.

Will it's chassis dynamics be as sweet as a BMW? I hope so, and for the first time, it is realistic to actually expect that. Will it have a functional, no-nonsense interior? Will you be able to get a great base powertrain, combined with a great chassis for low 20's? If you can get all that, Camaro will be a game changer. If not, it will be yet another opportunity lost by GM.

a low weight, no nonsense car that car handle decently, I could see something like that paving the way. I just don't see the interior as of yet, still shakey on the interior.

a low weight, no nonsense car that car handle decently, I could see something like that paving the way. I just don't see the interior as of yet, still shakey on the interior.

I'm shakey about the interior as well. But I still think that it might be possible that the most basic 5th gen, might be more fun to drive that my '89, G92, M5, IROC. I'm hopeful, anyway.

You've got to be kidding. :rolleyes:

Supercharged Cobalt SS
Impala & Monte Carlo SS
Trailblazer SS
GTO
Solstice & Sky GXP
Grand Prix GXP
CTS-V
STS-V
XLR-V

THANK you. I was about to hurl, reading all this BMW-fawning. Sure, BMW's are finely engineered machines. But somewhere along the way they forgot about VALUE. BMW's are a very poor value for the performance dollar. Nowadays, it really does, IMAO, say someone is a STUPID rich snob if they're tooling around in a new BMW for its performance.

Not neccesarily.

I could get two CTS-Vs for what one M5 cost... But Ill bet you that M5 is a lot more forgiving as a daily driver, a lot more predictable, etc.

There are reason to buy them even though better performance can be had for less.

THANK you. I was about to hurl, reading all this BMW-fawning. Sure, BMW's are finely engineered machines. But somewhere along the way they forgot about VALUE. BMW's are a very poor value for the performance dollar. Nowadays, it really does, IMAO, say someone is a STUPID rich snob if they're tooling around in a new BMW for its performance.

I don't know. It sounds like they're better engineered and designed for a performance and comfort compromise than anything else out there. How is it stupid to buy the best? And how is that poor value?

I don't own a BMW, but I have driven them, and they are very nice. A 328i with leather is available for 32500MSRP. That is about the same as a CTS 3.6, which is bigger, but also slower. It doesn't seem so out of whack to me on the value side. Of course, the CTS can be had these days at a significant discount....

2 CTS-V's for the price of one M5, and you also get 2 broken rear ends, crappy shifter, most dealers load them with crappier suspension and the crappy run flats, crappy interior....

Let's not go nuts here :) Like Good Ph.D said, there are reasons for both cars to exist at their respective price points. Even though the V has those shortcomings, it is still a hell of a car and everytime I get behind the wheel it is a fun time.

I don't know. It sounds like they're better engineered and designed for a performance and comfort compromise than anything else out there. How is it stupid to buy the best? And how is that poor value?

Its kind of like a Dyson Vacuum.

There are $40 vacuums, and there are $100 Vacuums. The $100 Vacuum is probably twice as good as the one for $40.

However, a $400 Vacuum is certainly not four times better than a $100 Vacuum. :think:

Its kind of like a Dyson Vacuum.

There are $40 vacuums, and there are $100 Vacuums. The $100 Vacuum is probably twice as good as the one for $40.

However, a $400 Vacuum is certainly not four times better than a $100 Vacuum. :think:

Okay, but how does that apply to BMW value? We're not talking 10X or even 2.5X here -- more like 1.05x in 3 versus CTS.

Okay, but how does that apply to BMW value? We're not talking 10X or even 2.5X here -- more like 1.05x in 3 versus CTS.

That's a valid point. But the CTS is generally comparable in price to the 3.

I really prefer to compare the CTS to to 5, since they're about the same size. I'd say a CTS gives you 90% (maybe 95%) of the 5's performance (excluding M5), for 75% of the price.

Of course, if you drive both of them, the first thing you'll notice is that 5 or 10% difference.

That's a valid point. But the CTS is generally comparable in price to the 3.

I really prefer to compare the CTS to to 5, since they're about the same size. I'd say a CTS gives you 90% (maybe 95%) of the 5's performance (excluding M5), for 75% of the price.

Of course, if you drive both of them, the first thing you'll notice is that 5 or 10% difference.

Yes, the CTS is closer in size to the 5. But it's really marketed against the 3 [ one size bigger for free! ], just like the G35, which is much closer to the CTS in size than it is to the 3.

It's really legitimate to compare against both, depending on whether you're buying by size or by price. For me, the extra size of the CTS is a disadvantage (more road hugging weight!), but if I needed a bigger trunk and back seat, it would be an advantage.

First, appologies for re-opening an old thread-

Second, this guy must be a GM dealer- after I said I didn't want a two-seater, and that GM doesn't build any enthusiast's car for me, this is what he offers- I should have also made clear that I don't see FWD as an enthusiast's car, though I will change my mind as soon as I see any NASCAR, fuelie rail, or LeMans/CART car using it-



Just to name a few of the more exceptional examples:

Cobalt SS Supercharged

Solstice GXP

Ion Redline

Grand Prix GXP

Sky Redline

GTO

Like I said, almost nothing for me- the GTO, maybe, can't get 4-doors though which is nice in case you actually carry more than one passenger ocaissionaly. The GTO is close, RWD, V-8, maybe GM could figure out how to build a car like this in the US? Ever try a power-slide in Grand Prix or a Redline? How about a little burnout in the Cobalt? I don't know about you, but 300 HP through the wheels I am trying to steer with is just so wrong- Great for econo- cars, but I notice Ferrari, Porsche, Mercedes and anybody else that cares about handling and performance doesn't build too many of them......

Solstice? Isn't that a 2-seater? Like the vette, nice for "fun" car, not something I could use as a daily driver. I have written GM directly, and told them that the only thing they build I even look twice at is a RWD V-8 truck, and that is not what I want for driving excitement- guess I will be looking elsewhere when it is time to retire the Z28....

First, appologies for re-opening an old thread-

Second, this guy must be a GM dealer- after I said I didn't want a two-seater, and that GM doesn't build any enthusiast's car for me, this is what he offers- I should have also made clear that I don't see FWD as an enthusiast's car, though I will change my mind as soon as I see any NASCAR, fuelie rail, or LeMans/CART car using it-





Like I said, almost nothing for me- the GTO, maybe, can't get 4-doors though which is nice in case you actually carry more than one passenger ocaissionaly. The GTO is close, RWD, V-8, maybe GM could figure out how to build a car like this in the US? Ever try a power-slide in Grand Prix or a Redline? How about a little burnout in the Cobalt? I don't know about you, but 300 HP through the wheels I am trying to steer with is just so wrong- Great for econo- cars, but I notice Ferrari, Porsche, Mercedes and anybody else that cares about handling and performance doesn't build too many of them......

Solstice? Isn't that a 2-seater? Like the vette, nice for "fun" car, not something I could use as a daily driver. I have written GM directly, and told them that the only thing they build I even look twice at is a RWD V-8 truck, and that is not what I want for driving excitement- guess I will be looking elsewhere when it is time to retire the Z28....

Check the news this week-- either Wednesday or Thursday. Look for "G8".

First, appologies for re-opening an old thread-

Second, this guy must be a GM dealer- after I said I didn't want a two-seater, and that GM doesn't build any enthusiast's car for me, this is what he offers- I should have also made clear that I don't see FWD as an enthusiast's car, though I will change my mind as soon as I see any NASCAR, fuelie rail, or LeMans/CART car using it-





Like I said, almost nothing for me- the GTO, maybe, can't get 4-doors though which is nice in case you actually carry more than one passenger ocaissionaly. The GTO is close, RWD, V-8, maybe GM could figure out how to build a car like this in the US? Ever try a power-slide in Grand Prix or a Redline? How about a little burnout in the Cobalt? I don't know about you, but 300 HP through the wheels I am trying to steer with is just so wrong- Great for econo- cars, but I notice Ferrari, Porsche, Mercedes and anybody else that cares about handling and performance doesn't build too many of them......

Solstice? Isn't that a 2-seater? Like the vette, nice for "fun" car, not something I could use as a daily driver. I have written GM directly, and told them that the only thing they build I even look twice at is a RWD V-8 truck, and that is not what I want for driving excitement- guess I will be looking elsewhere when it is time to retire the Z28....

http://www.flickr.com/photos/33532124@N00/380974497

- no tire changes. :shock: It takes fantastic chassis balance to achieve that.

Did they wet any part of the course down?


So flame away bro's. But if you've never driven a BMW really hard....you've got nothing to say to me.

Lol, when I went to Bridgestone ride and drive, we had some 3 series cars fitted with a variety of tires, ran them so hard the engines were knocking by the end of the day, Granted this was more like an autocross rather than a large course and speeds only got to around 35 to 50 mph, it was hella cool! Nothing like smoke rolling off the tires (not by spinning the wheels mind you) after a particularly brutal lap.

Let's face it, BMW has a hella good reputation, and well earned in the past. But I think the world is catching up, especially in value.

Any drive comparisons of Commodores to 3 series' ??

How about the V8 Impala SS ??, any hot laps??

I can see Pontiac stealing some of their styling thunder with the G8, and the Solstice looks great too...suspension tuning is another thing tho.
If a G8 can be optioned with some GMPP premium suspension upgrades, they might steal a few value minded sales.

The downside to the Beemers is still the Price, and pricey maintenance schedules...which the BMW "Image" still out weighs in the public's eyes.

Oh..I'm hearing lots of people quoting the GM 100K warantee stuff lately, it's making a lot more people take a hard look at a new GM vehicle, at least around here.:cool:

Did they wet any part of the course down?
.

No, but I think my passengers wet their pants. :metal: