When is Enough Horse Power To Much???

I realize that most enthusiasts like lot’s of HP and Torque and live by the adage “too much is not enough”…however, with some of the recent threads in this forum (as well as other sites) talking about HP in the 400 and up range for a (relatively) inexpensive sports coupe like the Camaro, I find myself more and more often asking when is enough HP actually too much?

I wonder if I am the only one concerned that unless the manufacturers who are producing these vehicles (vehicles with 0-60 in the under 4 second mark and top speeds approaching 200MPH) steps in of their own accord with a plan; then either the federal government or the insurance industry, or both, will.

Let’s face it, the average driver in this country can barely manage to park between the lines and about the only emergency maneuver they can handle is to stand on the breaks and close their eyes…if they had to take a real performance driving course before getting behind the wheel 80% would flunk. And even though most, especially on boards like this, like to think of themselves as great drivers, most ARE average.

Were I GM and producing 500+HP Corvette or a 400+HP Camaro I’d have to be at least a little bit worried about a multi-Billion $ lawsuit when some “adult” is stupid enough to let his 17 year old drive his Z06…now we can all say that it’s the parent’s fault for being that stupid but we all know it happens or the 17 year old will take the car without permission and it’s probably only a matter of time before some crack pot decides to blame GM for his bad judgment or his late son’s stupidity.

And how long are the insurance companies going to stay out of it?

How anxious are they going to be to insure a Z/28 with 400+ HP and is so widely available to the public? It’s one thing to have that kind of HP available in cars at or over the six figure $ mark since relatively few can actually afford them but the Camaro will probably be priced right in with a majority of cars available in 2009 – if insurance companies refuse to insure cars like the Z/28 or the insurance winds up costing more per month that the average payment, how many Z/28’s and their ilk will be sold (or continue to be produced)?

I’m not claiming to have an answer here…just thought I’d put this out for comments/see what some of you are thinking.

No such thing as:
To much Horse Power,
To much Money,
To much sex.

however if you have the money, then the other two are easy.

i thought i had heard somewhere that Chevy does require a performance driving test for buyers of the C6 Z06... i may be imagining that though

Most of what CamaroZ28 is about, is, modification of what F body you have. These are real car people due to each of our approach to modification, and, sharing with others. The F-body is a base for each to explore their own statement, and, quest for Engineering knowledge. Maybe you should consider another F-body and join the fun. My 97 is streetable, somewhat (Blown 383 - M6). I love push-rods.

I'm sure insurance will step in as soon as cheap cars with big HP numbers become more common. That's why 4th gens were more expensive to insure than vettes, or mustangs even. That's one of the reasons i wouldn't have minded a real base V8 in the 300-ish HP range rather than having the minimum V8 be some ~400hp thing. If chevy unloads 50k 400hp camaros a year (possible if they do really well and sell 120-150k units with 1/3 V8), A LOT will be wrapped around trees in no time, and insurance for the 5th gen will follow the rest of the generations relatively high cost.

If chevy unloads 50k 400hp camaros a year (possible if they do really well and sell 120-150k units with 1/3 V8), A LOT will be wrapped around trees in no time, and insurance for the 5th gen will follow the rest of the generations relatively high cost.

It will be times like these when i will be thankful to be over 25 and married...

i thought i had heard somewhere that Chevy does require a performance driving test for buyers of the C6 Z06... i may be imagining that though
That woldn't be a bad thing if true but even if they are doing it for the Z06 I wonder if they would for a Z/28?

Many years ago, I read an article in one of the car mags that I though was an interesting idea (I belive it was in England) but many insruance companies gave a signifiacnt discount on their insurance to drivers who had completed a hig performance driving course which would be quite an incentive to take such a couse (and, hopefully, serve to make them better drivers).

Also, I believe it was, and may still be, common in Europe that "spped limits" were bases on the age of the driver as indicated by different badging on cars...teenagers simply weren't allowd to travel at the same speed as adults, etc.

Insurance will/is going to keep things in check.

The best thing for 400-500HP fans is the 250HP+ family cars. If your average V6 sedan is 300HP some day then 375HP for a Camaro doesn't seem like too much. Yet 375HP is a lot of power.

This very topic had been in my mind for a looong time.

In the HOT ROD poll, I wrote down that any customer buying a high powered car should be mandated to take a high performance driving school first. My current 310 HP Z28 is PLENTY enough for me. It's enough to cruise 90mph on the highway, and definitely more than enough around town. Sometimes, it's too easy to go too fast around town.

You know how many Vipers and Z06s are wrecked by "virgins" of high HP cars?

If enough inexperienced drivers wrecked 450-500hp 5th gens, insurance will probably go up with it (I remember paying $1200/year for a 1980 Z-28 in mid 90's. I told my agent the thing can't even go past 90mph. He said sorry, anything "Z-28" is high risk, no matter how old. The same went for RX-7s , Supras, etc).

We had a thread about a possible 500hp Camaro, and I replied that I don't think I can't handle that kind of car. Defintely too much car, not enough talent on my part.

In my opinion, the best mod anyone can do is a high performance driving school. I don't have any mods on my car, but by just reading and going autocrossing I'm enjoying my car a heck of alot more. Going to a Skip Barber school is next on my list.

All's I'm saying is, high HP cars sound like fun, but it can defintely be a dangerous weapon behind an inexperinced driver as mentioned by RN.

But, Z-28 is always about affordable fun, just like its big brother. So the majority here probably could care less about driving school when one can spend $3k on tangible mods (I know I would if I were in my 20's!).


On a semi unrelated note, AMG is saying they're more concern about being more efficient than making big HP now.
They're saying the current HP on their line of cars is just about enough. Currrently, they're slimming down a couple of their cars so they're more track friendly. Same powerplant, lighter car = faster around track.

A.

Many years ago, I read an article in one of the car mags that I though was an interesting idea (I belive it was in England) but many insruance companies gave a signifiacnt discount on their insurance to drivers who had completed a hig performance driving course which would be quite an incentive to take such a couse (and, hopefully, serve to make them better drivers).

You know, you just inspired me to call my insurance agent about this. Who knows?

Many years ago, I read an article in one of the car mags that I though was an interesting idea (I belive it was in England) but many insruance companies gave a signifiacnt discount on their insurance to drivers who had completed a hig performance driving course which would be quite an incentive to take such a couse (and, hopefully, serve to make them better drivers).

I know you get a discount with some ins. companies for taking a riding course for motorcycles in Indiana... dropped my insurance by like 10 - 15% I think. I think this would be a great idea for high HP cars...

Fbodfather has said before that us crazy gearheads only make up about 10% of their consumer base. so, believe me, GM already knows that they have to target the average joe and a LOT of women if they want to sell the car in the numbers they are aiming for. in a way, that makes it even harder for them because they have to please people on both ends of the spectrum. make the Camaro a V6 FWD puss-mobile and they'll never hear the end of it from the very vocal enthusiast community... make it too much of a race car and they'll only sell 10%. they have to tread a fine line to please us and the average joe. it's a completely different market from the Impala crowd.

(it was also brought up in Bowling Green about offering a driving school. while GM i'm sure does not have the staffing to coordinate that for us, i'm sure if we did it on our own, the insurance companies would give a discount like casull said.)

the insurance industry and government already have their hands in the proverbial pie. but if GM plays it's politics right, we can still get a bad-ass race worthy Camaro while John Q Public gets his "chicks-dig-me-cuz-i-have-a-Camaro-even-though-it's-only-a-V6" model. you know there are ways to get around all that type of stuff. just like the EPA ratings. produce enough good gas mileage cars and the SUV and trucks can guzzle all the gas they want (which is fine by me cuz i buy a truck to tow, not to get good gas mileage).

we already have the four-seater aspect in our favor. and i think if they make a high ratio of V6's as well, we should be okay. also, if our crash test standards are as good as everything else GM is making, then we should be fine. the law of averages has a lot of affect on these things. i don't know everything that's involved, but those are some things i can think of and believe me, GM is gonna have all their ducks in a row.

and also, don't forget about black boxes and the impending OBD3. with all of that... even if you are retarded enough to lend your 16 year old kid your 500HP Camaro, any lawsuit that might arise will likely get squashed in court once they see the driving recordings. if the driver is being a maniac, it will be there in black and white.

overall, i think we don't have anything to worry about. GM has been in the car business for a long time. they have experience with this stuff. they have a 505HP ZO6 out there and who would have thought we would have seen that awesome day! i trust that they will know what to do to give us what we want, give the average joe what he wants, keep the insurance companies happy, and the federal government off their back. no need to worry! :D

long live the Camaro!

I don't think its so much that the cars are getting too fast as much as the general public is getting worse at driving. Nowadays everyone wants to do something other than drive when behind the wheel. There's no more etiquette (sp?). I have friends that drive around 650 rwhp cars almost on a daily basis and have no problems. Then I see Darwin candidates out there who'll wrap a Geo Metro around a pole. What's the old saying;
"Guns don't kill people. People do."
I think cars are the same way. We need to look more at the driver and not the automobile.

We need to look more at the driver and not the automobile.

I agree; however, it is a little difficult to control the type of people and/or their behaviors behind the wheel. Not to mention, I am sure there is a very strong correlation between the types of people who will buy a camaro and wreckless driving. If you can't control one's wreckless driving behavior you have to look for something else to control for, and the only other variable is the car. If you stick a person who is prone to wreckless driving behind the wheel of a 450HP they will then have the ability to drive more wrecklessly than if you stuck that same person behind the wheel of a 300 HP car.

In a perfect world our problems would be solved by not allowing people who drive like complete dumbasses to buy a camaro (or any high HP car for that matter)

Not to mention, I am sure there is a very strong correlation between the types of people who will buy a camaro and wreckless driving. If you can't control one's wreckless driving behavior you have to look for something else to control for, and the only other variable is the car. If you stick a person who is prone to wreckless driving behind the wheel of a 450HP they will then have the ability to drive more wrecklessly than if you stuck that same person behind the wheel of a 300 HP car.

DANG! Here I thought 'wreckless' driving was a good thing!

What's the old saying;
"Guns don't kill people. People do."
I think cars are the same way. We need to look more at the driver and not the automobile.
I was going to say the exact same thing ;).

BUT, I have been thinking about where the power is going as well ... think of what happened in the late 60's / early 70's :rolleyes:. The power and performance of cars started to ramp up REALLY quick (you could almost argue, "too quick"? :shrug: ) and then all of a sudden, the government threw out a (bogus) "CRISIS" ..... "gas crisis" ..... and that was it, all the cars got a make-over -----> NEUTERED!!! :mad: I laugh at the thoughts of a ~170 HP V8 Camaro, and yet that was the reality.

Fast-forward: are we building up for a repeat of ~40-year-old history? :confused: It's one thing when the "big dogs" (ie: Viper, 'Vette, Ford GT, Ferrari, etc.) up the ante with their cars, and start pumping out ~500+ HP. But are the "every day / commuter" cars getting to be too much, too fast? :shrug:

I'm all for it, but I'm another person who has been (just recently) taking my Camaro out on a road course for the first time since I've owned it, and you know what? With "merely" ~350 HP, it's a whole lot more car than even "I" realized ;). I can only "imagine" what ~500 HP would be like.

edit: I guess their "solution" to the problem could be to severely limit the cars with Torque Management, like Dodge has already done with the 425 HP Hemi Charger? How would you like a 425 HP car that barely runs high 13's around ~105? :rolleyes: Or a 500 HP car (think "GT500") that "only" runs 12's? ;) Whether they limit the power using Torque Management or whatever, somehow they'll find a way to "handicap" cars of the future :(.

In my opinion, the best mod anyone can do is a high performance driving school. I don't have any mods on my car, but by just reading and going autocrossing I'm enjoying my car a heck of alot more. Going to a Skip Barber school is next on my list.
It’s very true that those new to autocross quickly want to start changing suspension components or brakes or wheels/tires and on and on before they’ll actually give themselves time to improve as a driver.

Then can’t figure out how to enter and exit a corner to carry the most speed through but they’ll spend thousands of dollars on modifications that may give them a half-second here and a tenth of a second there- for much, much less money, they could attend a good driver’s school (or two or three) and cut two or three of four seconds off their time!

It’s almost always true that the when it comes to modifications, the best return for the dollar spent is modifying what’s between the ears rather than what you are sitting on or in….anybody with money can give a car HP and get a suspension working to its optimal level but a great driver with a decent car will beat a mediocre driver with a great car all day long.

I do think requiring (or at least strongly encouraging) a high-performance driving school for those buying high performance cars would be an excellent idea but it would be for the public in general as well – after all, you don’t need 500HP to kill yourself or someone else; a four cylinder econo-box can kill too.

There is one side of this that you guys are not seeing. Why would insurance companies want GM and other car makers to not have all this horsepower??

With more horsepower, comes more money on a monthly basis from those of us that will put up with it. We all want the car here, even if it has 450 HP (like that is a bad thing), and even if it costs us a butt load on insurance. We will pay it, and the insurance companies will gladly take it from us.

Why would they really want that to stop?

anybody who's driving 400+ RWPH should have some kind of previous driving experience. track, 5+ years behind the wheel, or experience with a comparable vehicle.

my 200 hp still gives me surprises. i'm sure a V8 would be awesome, but i don't mind waiting a couple years.:)

There is one side of this that you guys are not seeing. Why would insurance companies want GM and other car makers to not have all this horsepower??

With more horsepower, comes more money on a monthly basis from those of us that will put up with it. We all want the car here, even if it has 450 HP (like that is a bad thing), and even if it costs us a butt load on insurance. We will pay it, and the insurance companies will gladly take it from us.

Why would they really want that to stop?

It’s not just a matter of charging high premiums…other than investments, the only way for an insurance company to make money is to bring in more revenue than they have to pay out in claims and the more claims a type of vehicle has, the more difficult it is to break even, let alone make a profit.

High performance/sports cars, especially cars that tend to appeal to kids and younger adults (like the Z/28) get wrecked more often than most other cars even if those other cars have the same performance capabilities which is why some insurance companies won’t insure them at all at any premium level. Yes, the insurance company can charge higher premiums to try and cover the additional risk but it’s still a hassle they don’t want and they can’t necessarily charge whatever they want or people will not buy the insurance.

There is one side of this that you guys are not seeing. Why would insurance companies want GM and other car makers to not have all this horsepower??

I don't think the argument is that insurance companies want to regulate horsepower ratings on cars.

With more horsepower, comes more money on a monthly basis from those of us that will put up with it.

...Which in turn diminishes car sales and thus we end up at the same place we were at in 2002... no camaro :yuck:

I really hope it doesnt come down the line like it looks like it will. I also hope the insurance companies dont try to pass on high premiums like they probably will. Either way, I want the horsepower, even if I dont need it. I would love to go through a high performance driving school. I would love it even more if it dropped my insurance premium. I will definitely be asking my insurance agent about it when the time comes.

I am buying a SS when it is available, wheter the insurance is high or not. Like u said casull, it is definitely good to be 30 and married, with two cars and house all on the same insurance.

I've been reading from this site for a few months now and Robert_Nashiville's first post intrigued me enough to register and provide some insight from a different point of view. I don't have very much knowledge regarding the mechanical and electrical engineering of vehicles. But I have entered hundreds of accident reports into a database for a transportation agency and done numerous safety studies as a consulting engineer in the Transportation field.

The variables are the 1. the driver(s) 2. the vehicle(s) and 3. the road. Accidents are counteracted by the three "E"s. Engineering, Enforcement and Education. Two of the three countermeasures focus on 1. the driver. The other countermeasure, engineering, addresses the other variables (the vehicles and the road). Horsepower is just one small attribute of the substantive safety of the vehicle. By limiting one small attribute of one of only three variables, there would not be a significant increase in safety.

The reason that two of the countermeasures are focused on one variable, is because THE DRIVER IS USUALLY AT FAULT. Not the road or the vehicle.

I doubt that the federal government is going to step in to regulate horsepower when it would have a small impact in the overall number of injury and fatality related accidents nationwide. It would be much more meaningful for the federal highway administration to concentrate their limited budget and manpower on efforts that can make the biggest impact to lowering the overall number of accidents. Such as driver education...

Which would make me think that it would be great for the insurance companies to offer classes, keep it out of the feds hands. Politics will screw up anything meaningful that the feds would try to achieve anyway.

That being said, I can't wait for the 2009 Camaro to come out. Small problem is I'll have to buy a house so I can have a garage for it when it comes out. Why have a garage if you're not going to have Camaro in it, right?

I doubt that the federal government is going to step in to regulate horsepower when it would have a small impact in the overall number of injury and fatality related accidents nationwide. It would be much more meaningful for the federal highway administration to concentrate their limited budget and manpower on efforts that can make the biggest impact to lowering the overall number of accidents. Such as driver education...
Thanks for your comments...

While I agree in general and say that you make a very logical argument; I'm not so sure the government would stay out of it as you suggest...while your argument is sound, I would suggest that the government might stick their regulatory power into the horsepower issue because...

1)although it may prove the least meaningful in reducing accidents, it's easier to address/regulate than driver training and education

2)there are probably more people who think horsepower is bad than good and would welcome the regulation

3)It's an easy way to appear to "care" and do something without actually having to do much of anything.

I don't know, maybe I'm just getting cynical in my old age. :)

1) Totally agree, sometimes the hardest tasks provide the best results.

2) Kind of agree, people love to drive, it is symbolic in this country for the freedom to go where you want, whenever you want, with whomever you want. For most people, what is better than getting from point A to point B faster, via more horsepower. On the other hand, people love to tell others how to live their lives, I'd say its a 50/50 split.

3) Agree, but it is much easier for them to be reactive, take a microscopic look, and throw a bunch of money on some infrastructure project and put a sign with their name on it than be proactive on a macro level and not have a product which shows a constant reminder of their accomplishment.

I think that if driver's ed or insurance companies had a road course set up with a bunch of 2009 Camaros then there would not be a problem with improving driver education. :D Driver's of all ages would line up to have fun, learn a little about road courses, and get a discount on insurance.

Excellent post, guys! Very well written arguments. The Best thread in quite a few weeks.
--drb

I've been reading from this site for a few months now and Robert_Nashiville's first post intrigued me enough to register and provide some insight from a different point of view. I don't have very much knowledge regarding the mechanical and electrical engineering of vehicles. But I have entered hundreds of accident reports into a database for a transportation agency and done numerous safety studies as a consulting engineer in the Transportation field.

The variables are the 1. the driver(s) 2. the vehicle(s) and 3. the road.

Thanks for your comments...

While I agree in general and say that you make a very logical argument; I'm not so sure the government would stay out of it as you suggest...while your argument is sound, I would suggest that the government might stick their regulatory power into the horsepower issue because...





I think that if driver's ed or insurance companies had a road course set up with a bunch of 2009 Camaros then there would not be a problem with improving driver education. :D Driver's of all ages would line up to have fun, learn a little about road courses, and get a discount on insurance.

Excellent post, guys! Very well written arguments. The Best thread in quite a few weeks.
--drb

you just wanted to use the xquote didnt you ;)

There is a show on TV right now, in its second season, called "Canada's Worst Driver" (who knows, maybe there is already an "America's Worst Driver" as well? :shrug: ).

...anyway, they have 8 "contestants". They are all horrible drivers, but in different ways. When they all arrive at the location where the show is being filmed, they have to turn in their car keys, and not until they "graduate" will they get them back.

The contestants are forced through several different "challenges" ... they're not all easy or standard maneuvers ... I'm sure even "I" would mess up the odd one!! ;) :p BUT, it is teaching them to be better drivers, or they don't get their keys back!! (there is a cop on the panel of judges for the show, so I'm sure he has authority to hand out tickets or suspend licences if he deems it necessary?? :confused: ).

I think either A) mandated driver's training, and/or B) significant insurance discounts for taking driver's training, would go a long way to improving today's drivers :yes:. Not that everybody needs to become a "race car driver", but a racing school can/would be very beneficial to most drivers :cool:.

They ought to take away the cars of the worst drivers and give them motorcycles as a replacement.

The best driver's school I ever had was from the Australian Northern Territory government: A rough equivilant to the Motorcycle Safety Foundation. Excellent information that taught us all to be defensive drivers at all times. One of the best things we learned is to always look for a way to give your other drivers an escape route, in cases of "oopsies": Stupid mistakes. Simple stuff, like when making a left turn, always turn into the left lane until you can make a proper lane change into the right lane. It gives the red light runner some place to go rather than over you. I also slow down to the speed limit or below at all major intersections with my foot hovering over the brake, and keep the speed differential between myself and the car next to me at a minimum, certainly no more than 6 to 7 MPH. It doesn't pay to surprise them.

Motorcycle survival skills work well for car drivers, too. Driving schools ought to be worth an insurance discount.

OK, I haven't read the complete thread yet and somebody else may have already corrected this, but the word is "TOO" not "TO" for the title here!

In the HOT ROD poll, I wrote down that any customer buying a high powered car should be mandated to take a high performance driving school first. My current 310 HP Z28 is PLENTY enough for me. It's enough to cruise 90mph on the highway, and definitely more than enough around town. Sometimes, it's too easy to go too fast around town.
A.

it got me a discount on my insurance, like in the uk, i would be in*if you havent tracked a car, go try it*but to buy a car...are you serious:confused: if you can't handle the power of a particular car, then dont buy it, but dont think your stupid idea will become, or should become reality anytime soon


We had a thread about a possible 500hp Camaro, and I replied that I don't think I can't handle that kind of car. Defintely too much car, not enough talent on my part.
A.

ok that makes it easy for you...dont buy anything with more than a mere .094 power to weight ratio*which your currently right around*

OK, I haven't read the complete thread yet and somebody else may have already corrected this, but the word is "TOO" not "TO" for the title here!
Thanks for noticing! :o

its find my self asking the same qestion. but its not like you couldnt get high hp cars back in the day either the l88 the zl1 just to name a few. but you have have always been able to get high hp exotics and you could modd your car to get up in hp to.

i think the key i was talking about in another thread would also help in this situation to. if you used a vallet key to learn on the car that limited you to 70 mph and half the hp it would give you time to ajust to the car before releasing its full potential.

They ought to take away the cars of the worst drivers and give them motorcycles as a replacement.

The best driver's school I ever had was from the Australian Northern Territory government: A rough equivilant to the Motorcycle Safety Foundation. Excellent information that taught us all to be defensive drivers at all times. One of the best things we learned is to always look for a way to give your other drivers an escape route, in cases of "oopsies": Stupid mistakes. Simple stuff, like when making a left turn, always turn into the left lane until you can make a proper lane change into the right lane. It gives the red light runner some place to go rather than over you. I also slow down to the speed limit or below at all major intersections with my foot hovering over the brake, and keep the speed differential between myself and the car next to me at a minimum, certainly no more than 6 to 7 MPH. It doesn't pay to surprise them.

Motorcycle survival skills work well for car drivers, too. Driving schools ought to be worth an insurance discount.


i have to say i took the MSF course the basic im taking the next one next summer cuase there are diffrent levels any way it not only made me a better rider but a better driver.

I got news for you guys.

INSURANCE RATES ARE NOT DETERMINED BY HP.

Insurance rates are determined by the amount of cars they insure, the amout of people that have accidents in those cars, and the age of the driver.

So in essence, the thing that is going to make the rates go up is when a bunch of teeny bobbers start having accidents in Camaro's. My dad's 425hp SRT-8 is the cheapest car on thier insurance policy, and that includes his truck, a jeep, my mom's BMW and my younger sister's civic.

My 97 Mustang GT with 215hp was a lot more to insure than my 02 Z28 was even with over 100 more hp, sometimes it's not the power but the image you are insuring. I got pulled 3 times in my GT within a year never for speeding, usually for tags or something just so they could pull me. The Z went past the cops like a toyota camry, never even noticed me. It's not always about the pure power that gets you high rates, it often times the perception the cops have of you which lead to more pull overs by them. It's simple, a fully clad Roush mustang is gonna draw more attention from the cops than a base model Z28 even though it has more power.

its find my self asking the same qestion. but its not like you couldnt get high hp cars back in the day either the l88 the zl1 just to name a few. but you have have always been able to get high hp exotics and you could modd your car to get up in hp to.

i think the key i was talking about in another thread would also help in this situation to. if you used a vallet key to learn on the car that limited you to 70 mph and half the hp it would give you time to ajust to the car before releasing its full potential.
I do like the "key" idea for a number of reasons although the problem is that any device that can be defeated (like say by junior) would still leave the manufacturer exposed to potential liability I would think.

And yes, high HP cars have been available for a long time; even back in the dark ages when I was buying my first cars. However, while people have always been able to modify cars themselves, that is, compared to the total driving population, a relatively few cars and not enough to rise to public attention. Likewise, the truly high HP cars produced by car makers were limited, often by price level alone - most of the truly high HP cars costs more than most people's houses and few would or could buy them.

The issue I’m more concerned with is truly high HP cars available to "the masses" and at a price that many, many people can afford if they want one – especially “masses” that are dangerous with a basic car/limited HP.

Maybe my concern is unfounded but I think that a few spectacular accidents in a fifth-gen Camaro is all the press and the public will need to make it a national crisis.

it got me a discount on my insurance, like in the uk, i would be in*if you havent tracked a car, go try it*but to buy a car...are you serious:confused: if you can't handle the power of a particular car, then dont buy it, but dont think your stupid idea will become, or should become reality anytime soon



ok that makes it easy for you...dont buy anything with more than a mere .094 power to weight ratio*which your currently right around*

I'm sorry my idea was stupid to you, oh smart one.

You think it's stupid for drivers to better handle their high HP cars?

It's stupid drivers like YOU, with your arrogant attitude that's dangerous for the rest of us.

And, yes, even if I could afford a Viper or a ZO6, I won't buy it, until I know I can handle such cars. Call it responsible. You want to call it stupid, well, then it's you.

And no, I'm not holding my breath til the day a mandatory driving course comes.

PS - and yes I've tracked my car, thus realized what a bad driver I am and the benefit of a driving school is. But, I'm sure you think it's stoopid.

A.

I'm sorry my idea was stupid to you, oh smart one.

You think it's stupid for drivers to better handle their high HP cars?

It's stupid drivers like YOU, with your arrogant attitude that's dangerous for the rest of us.

And, yes, even if I could afford a Viper or a ZO6, I won't buy it, until I know I can handle such cars. Call it responsible. You want to call it stupid, well, then it's you.

And no, I'm not holding my breath til the day a mandatory driving course comes.

PS - and yes I've tracked my car, thus realized what a bad driver I am and the benefit of a driving school is. But, I'm sure you think it's stoopid.

A.

I don;'t think his point was driving school itself was stupid. Just that requiring a course to be able to buy a car was. WHICH IMHO, he's 100% right.

Whether or not you can handle an ultra high performance car at it's limits or not is entirely irrelevent to whether you shoudl be allowed to own it. Why? Easy: It's totally illegal to use the capabilities of an ultra-high performance car on a public street anyway. A 505hp Z06 is infinitely safer doing just about any driving maneuver at anything near legal speeds than say the average minivan, for example, emergency lane changes, or driving a little over the posted speed limit on a highway on ramp curve.

If you're going to choose to do dumb things like high speed runs or really aggressively attacking turns, the best driving school in the world still isn't going to help you when you hit a patch of gravel mid-corner, or a pothole that blows out your tire at 165mph. AAMOF, taking a driving school might be a bad idea because then it gives you confidence to do things you really shoudln't be doing on the street where variables like gravel and potholes are more important than whether you know what trail braking means.

Oh I understood his post. Just calling it stupid w/o reasoning is not contributing to this great thread. That's all.

I have no problem at all w/people disagreeing with me, as long as they tell me the reasons, like you just did.

You responded with great reasons why you think my idea was bad. Did you call my idea stupid and told me what to buy? No. But you presented clearly why you think it's bad, and frankly that's what I like to hear.

I agree w/ your reasons, that mandating a driving school is not going to stop irrresponsible drivers from being, well, irresponsible.

But, what about the benefits? Those who never knew not to treat the throttle like an on/off switch? Those who want to know the limit of their high HP cars so they don't crash just getting out of parking lots trying to make the light? (I've seen it happen to a Viper). Those who want to know how to feel the car just before the tires lose traction? Those who don't know what to do if their 500hp cars oversteer, heading into a ditch?

Crashes that involved high HP cars don't always involve irresposbile people, but also include drivers who didn't realize how powerful their cars are, didn't know how correct the situation, and crashed.

That's why I think a little knowledge and experience before driving cars like a 505HP Z06 is mandatory. Or a 500 HP Viper w/no traction control.

Although, I also agree w/you that some drivers might think they're Mario Andretti just because they took a driving school.

Thanks for your helpful response, notgetleft :)

A.

"Too much horsepower"...
Hmmmm....
I keep repeating the phrase, and it still just doesn't make sense.:p

More seriously; I'm not sure I get the insurance angle, either. Maybe my ins. company is strange, but I'm paying more for both my '00 Ford Excursion (55K miles) and my '97 Ford F-250 (75K miles) than for my '02 SS Convertible turbocharged Camaro (21K miles).:confused:

I think the truck is probably because my 16 y.o. son is listed as an occasional driver but I really don't get the Excursion: it's older, slower, safer, and the book value is about the same as the Camaro. ??
The ins. co. says that's just the way it comes up in their computer and they don't have an explanation either.
Anyone know why this might be the case?

becuase you do much more damage when you hit something with a truck then a car

Is the camaro listed as a pleasure vehicle? If the excursion is listed as the primary vehicle (daily driver, etc) it may cost more simply becasue it get driven more, and thus at a greater risk for an accident. If the Camaro is listed as a pleasure vehicle, secondary vehicle or etc then the rates will be lower. I know when I lived in chicago my wife's Civic was listes as a secondary vehicle and we paid like 50 bucks a month for full coverage. When we moved to Indy the agent said he can't list it that way becasue of the number of miles that would be put on it from her commute to work alone and thus it was bumped into the daily driver category which greatly increased the rate (we now pay like 83/mo)



"Too much horsepower"...
Hmmmm....
I keep repeating the phrase, and it still just doesn't make sense.:p

More seriously; I'm not sure I get the insurance angle, either. Maybe my ins. company is strange, but I'm paying more for both my '00 Ford Excursion (55K miles) and my '97 Ford F-250 (75K miles) than for my '02 SS Convertible turbocharged Camaro (21K miles).:confused:

I think the truck is probably because my 16 y.o. son is listed as an occasional driver but I really don't get the Excursion: it's older, slower, safer, and the book value is about the same as the Camaro. ??
The ins. co. says that's just the way it comes up in their computer and they don't have an explanation either.
Anyone know why this might be the case?

You are so right! I have a 16 year old son , we bought him a '91 RS small block 305 V-8 and that was bad enough, so bad that I had to take it away and let him have a little 4 banger truck. Most people, if they have that much power they are going to use it or try to here in Ca. the traffic is so bad I wonder sometimes whats the point of having so much HP when you can't even use it. Then there are the people who see you driving a car like mine for example who think they have to try to make you race.l dont but I know many who would which brings up your next point- insurance. Thanks for bringing up this topic I for one could'nt agree with you more!

I don;'t think his point was driving school itself was stupid. Just that requiring a course to be able to buy a car was. WHICH IMHO, he's 100% right.

Whether or not you can handle an ultra high performance car at it's limits or not is entirely irrelevent to whether you shoudl be allowed to own it. Why? Easy: It's totally illegal to use the capabilities of an ultra-high performance car on a public street anyway. A 505hp Z06 is infinitely safer doing just about any driving maneuver at anything near legal speeds than say the average minivan, for example, emergency lane changes, or driving a little over the posted speed limit on a highway on ramp curve.

If you're going to choose to do dumb things like high speed runs or really aggressively attacking turns, the best driving school in the world still isn't going to help you when you hit a patch of gravel mid-corner, or a pothole that blows out your tire at 165mph. AAMOF, taking a driving school might be a bad idea because then it gives you confidence to do things you really shoudln't be doing on the street where variables like gravel and potholes are more important than whether you know what trail braking means.

As a 16 year old with a massivly underpowered vehicle and a need for speed, I disaggre. All teenagers that like cars think they know the basics of how to not get hurt, and then end up getting hurt. Kids think they know how to drive fast cuzz of what they saw on the movies, what their friends have told them, and when they have seen in video games.

The first day i had my liscence i discovered that if you mashed your foot to the floor in my truck, the throttle stuck. I got it home, my confidence in myself getting higher. I was involved in my first acident 16 days after recieving my liscence. I went into a 25 mph corner pushing somewhere between 60 and 70. Needless to say it was a good situation, and i was lucky that there no other cars on the road.

Now imagine im on of my friends who has a fast car, not a cheap truck. Things would have been much, much, much worse. Now, if instead of having my head filled with "All you have to do is steer into it" and other BS, and had acualy been taught how easy it is to loose control, i wouldnt have crashed. I believe this is true for alot of sixteen year olds. I think that if everyone took such a class, the roads would be safer, even if people were going faster.

The first day i had my liscence i discovered that if you mashed your foot to the floor in my truck, the throttle stuck. I got it home, my confidence in myself getting higher. I was involved in my first acident 16 days after recieving my liscence. I went into a 25 mph corner pushing somewhere between 60 and 70. Needless to say it was a good situation, and i was lucky that there no other cars on the road.
You're supposed to save those type of "stunts" for a race track ;). Or get A LOT more experience first. I'm not going to be the person (hypocrite;)) to tell you that you shouldn't be attempting these types of "stunts" on public streets, BUT, with more experience behind the wheel, you'll at least be able to seperate the "stupid" ideas from the REALLY stupid ideas!! :lol: (like, take that 25 mph corner at ~50 mph, instead of ~70 mph ;)).

too much would be 200+ hp more than the competition to the point where prices are too high and unreasonable... as long as there is competition, there will obviously be a battle of hp... and without competition, where would we be?

IMO this is where something like the German licensing program would be better; much more rigorous testing just to get a license. Everyone should have to complete some pretty intense road course work just to get a license period. And stricter enforcement of road rules. Speed doesn't kill its usually when there’s someone doing 40mph in the fast lane and then that person has to slam on the brakes to avoid them. Or the person weaving around the slow lanes at 80mph. Right now in the US there’s such a huge emphasis on speed alone. 65-70mph is legal but still deadly with reckless driving.

As to insurance that’s why I drive a v6 can't afford insurance on a v8. My insurance now is $2800 a year and I'm on my moms plan that also includes her car (she has also never been ticketed/in an accident). I've never had a ticket; I've been in one minor accident (not my fault, my insurance paid nothing). If I jump up to the 8 that’s $3200-3500 a year.

My insurance now is $2800 a year and I'm on my moms plan that also includes her car (she has also never been ticketed/in an accident). I've never had a ticket; I've been in one minor accident (not my fault, my insurance paid nothing). If I jump up to the 8 that’s $3200-3500 a year.

:eek: What market are you in! California!?

I have to wonder if this thread would exist if the Nissan GT-R were rumored to make 600hp?

I have to wonder if this thread would exist if the Nissan GT-R were rumored to make 600hp?
Why would you even ask the question? Did you not read the initial post or do you jsut want to create an issue where there isn't one? This isn't a Nissan vs GM issue or any one manufacturere vs any other manufacturere isssue.

Yes, this thread would exist if the GT-R was going to be priced in the $30-$40K range. The issue isn't just high horsepower, it's high horsepower in cars brand new from the factory that is widely available (because of price) to a significant cross-section of the buying public.

Cars with significant HP costing near or above (or well above) six-figures are rare enough and difficult enough to obtain that they aren't going to raise an alarm on anybogy's radar, but put a few hundred thousand Camaros or Mustangs or Chargers, etc. with 450HP+ and top speeds in excess of 160-180 and you could have a backlash waiting to happen - does anyone really want a "Mothers Against HorsePower" group on the evening news protesting the horsepower available to the average kid/young adult???

This thread just caught my eye. Good points above.

I was finishing high school in the late 60s / early 70s, and I remember clearly what happened when the HP ratings exploded. A couple things... First, the OEM's HP ratings started to get ridiculously conservative... for example, the 426 street hemi at only 425 HP.

But the main thing that happened was that the insurance rates went insanely high for young drivers who had cars with high-HP-per-pound ratios. It basically became financially impossible for a young driver to insure a high-HP car. That's what ultimately "regulated" the situation. I'm not saying this is right (or wrong), but this is what happened.

I also remember at the time, much discussion like in this thread, that the age of the driver shouldn't be a deal-breaker, that their own personal driving track record should be the main thing, etc, etc. But the insurance companies didn't see it that way back then, and they ended up calling the shots.

I have no idea how or if the insurance companies will get involved this time around...

Once the "gas crisis" and the switch to no-lead fuel came in, (all within a few years), that was the end of high HP cars for a very long time. I personally regard the intro of the Gen II LT1 in 1992 as the first of the new era of high HP mainstream engines.

I'd be curious to see some real statistics on the causes of accidents. In particular the breakdown between:

1) People driving drunk
2) People talking on the phone/adjusting the radio/otherwise not paying attention
3) People breaking speed limits, running stop lights, breaking other traffic laws
and
4) Random situations that could be avoided by emergency maneuvers by a trained driver

I guess what I'm getting at here is that all the driving school in the world isn't going to help you when some idiot rear-ends you in traffic. And if most accidents are unavoidable, it probably wouldn't make that much difference in your rate.

Plus, I'm pretty dubious at some of the reasoning here -- the insurance company wants you to take 25MPH corners at 25, not learn how to do it at 50MPH without crashing.

I'd be curious to see some real statistics on the causes of accidents. In particular the breakdown between:

1) People driving drunk
2) People talking on the phone/adjusting the radio/otherwise not paying attention
3) People breaking speed limits, running stop lights, breaking other traffic laws
and
4) Random situations that could be avoided by emergency maneuvers by a trained driver

I guess what I'm getting at here is that all the driving school in the world isn't going to help you when some idiot rear-ends you in traffic. And if most accidents are unavoidable, it probably wouldn't make that much difference in your rate.

Plus, I'm pretty dubious at some of the reasoning here -- the insurance company wants you to take 25MPH corners at 25, not learn how to do it at 50MPH without crashing.

One more I'd add to that list is sleep deprivity. Man I can't tell you how lucky I am not to have had a wreck, or killed myslef, just for driving tired.... IMO it can be far worse than driving drunk sometimes.

I guess what I'm getting at here is that all the driving school in the world isn't going to help you when some idiot rear-ends you in traffic. And if most accidents are unavoidable, it probably wouldn't make that much difference in your rate.

Plus, I'm pretty dubious at some of the reasoning here -- the insurance company wants you to take 25MPH corners at 25, not learn how to do it at 50MPH without crashing.
It’s true of course that no amount of training can protect you from the stupidity of other drivers…as long as people are hell-bent on being idiots behind the wheel everyone else is at risk. And of course, that's true no matter how much horse power a vehicle has.

That said, high performance driving courses are not simply about driving a car to it’s limits every time a person is behind the wheel; it’s about being able to control your car…being able to handle a car not just at speed but in an emergency (like avoiding idiot drivers).

If a person is stupid enough to take 25MPH corners at 50 all the time then they will eventually pay the price, either in terms of traffic tickets or in an accident but that is a matter of the stupidity of the individual driver and not the result of any courses he has taken…I suspect that someone doing as you suggest is already doing so without any training (which makes him even more dangerous) and probably reading, talking on his cell phone and nodding off now and then as well.

Insurance companies have already gotten behind this idea in other countries and they would here too I believe; not because they want everyone out there driving like they are in the Indy 500 but because insurance companies like things that save them money and people who DO know how to drive well and are able to control their cars in emergency situations (as opposed to just thinking they drive well) tend to have fewer accidents which save everybody, including insurance companies, money.

One more I'd add to that list is sleep deprivity. Man I can't tell you how lucky I am not to have had a wreck, or killed myslef, just for driving tired.... IMO it can be far worse than driving drunk sometimes.
AFAIK, here in Canada you can be charged with "Impaired Driving", and that does not have to mean "DUI - driving under the influence" ..... exhausted tired, like you said, is equally as dangerous, and you are therefore legally "impaired".

I
Insurance companies have already gotten behind this idea in other countries and they would here too I believe; not because they want everyone out there driving like they are in the Indy 500 but because insurance companies like things that save them money and people who DO know how to drive well and are able to control their cars in emergency situations (as opposed to just thinking they drive well) tend to have fewer accidents which save everybody, including insurance companies, money.

I agree. But if anyone understands statistics and actuarial matters, it's the insurance companies. It seems to me that if they could save themselves (and you) some meaningful money by encouraging driving school, they already would.

Maybe that's giving them too much credit though :p

I think it's easier and cheaper for the insurance companies to simply make it very difficult for young people to insure high-powered cars. It's got to be expensive --and a hassle-- for the insurance companies to process the accident claims... lawyers, paperwork, body shops, possibly law suits, etc. Also expensive and a hassle would be defining what is an "acceptable" driving school curriculum, certifying the schools, etc, etc... just not worth it. So it's easier to just boost up the rates for those "undesirables" (young driver + powerful car).

A similar example... my brother works for a LARGE financial institution that issues residential mortgages. He says the worst thing that can happen is that they have to foreclose on someone's house. While I'm sure there's people at the mortgage company who feel genuinely bad about having to take someone's house away, the main reason they don't want foreclosures is the cost and hassle of dealing with them. It's easier and more profitable for them to "weed out" people they feel are remotely close to not being able to make their mortgage payments, and not give them the loan in the first place.

I suspect this same type of simplistic thinking goes on at the auto insurance companies, too. All they want to do is collect your premiums. Period. Everything else is a hassle for them.

I think it's easier and cheaper for the insurance companies to simply make it very difficult for young people to insure high-powered cars. It's got to be expensive --and a hassle-- for the insurance companies to process the accident claims... lawyers, paperwork, body shops, possibly law suits, etc. Also expensive and a hassle would be defining what is an "acceptable" driving school curriculum, certifying the schools, etc, etc... just not worth it. So it's easier to just boost up the rates for those "undesirables" (young driver + powerful car).

A similar example... my brother works for a LARGE financial institution that issues residential mortgages. He says the worst thing that can happen is that they have to foreclose on someone's house. While I'm sure there's people at the mortgage company who feel genuinely bad about having to take someone's house away, the main reason they don't want foreclosures is the cost and hassle of dealing with them. It's easier and more profitable for them to "weed out" people they feel are remotely close to not being able to make their mortgage payments, and not give them the loan in the first place.

I suspect this same type of simplistic thinking goes on at the auto insurance companies, too. All they want to do is collect your premiums. Period. Everything else is a hassle for them.
Then doesn't that just bring us back to the question I asked at the beginning..."how much horse power is too much"? What good is it, really, if Camaro's and other "modestly priced" cars with significant HP (as in 400+) end up not being bought because the people who most want them (typically "younger" drivers) can afford the cars but can't afford the insurance coverage (or perhaps, can't get insurance at any price)?

Then doesn't that just bring us back to the question I asked at the beginning..."how much horse power is too much"? What good is it, really, if Camaro's and other "modestly priced" cars with significant HP (as in 400+) end up not being bought because the people who most want them (typically "younger" drivers) can afford the cars but can't afford the insurance coverage (or perhaps, can't get insurance at any price)?
I think you are exactly correct. I suspect that the high HP cars will end up in the hands of rich young people or older people whose insurance is not so bad in the first place. The younger/poorer people will have to settle for one of the lower HP versions (V6?) :( Typically, the "base models" are the best sellers and the have the least-powerful engines.

I suspect that market forces (which includes peoples' pocketbooks, the insurance companies, GM, etc, etc) will determine how much HP is "too much" over time.

EDIT: I mean, you already have people on this board who are struggling to make insurance payments on their LS1s. The insurance payments will be even worse for the next generation of 400+ HP engines, IMO.

Sometimes, the auto manufacturers make big noise about their high HP engines since that helps create their performance "image" and also gets people into the showrooms. I wonder how many people exposed to the Cobra or other high-end Mustangs end up (happy) buying the base model?

I think it might be in GM's best interests to offer maybe another engine option or two, like they did in the 60's and 70's. Not just an SS or WS6 package that yields 10 more hp.. Maybe another V8 with hp numbers much like the 4th. gen. nested if just offering a 250hp. V6 and a 450-500hp. V8. Kind of like what they do with their trucks, their excellent sellers, with motors like, 4.3v6, 4.8v8, 5.3v8, 6.0v8, and the big dog 8.1v8. Maybe it would peak a little more interest in the car by having different power plants. Remember Ford did this with their Mustang. Not only having a v6 and v8 260hp. GT, they also had the Roush w/ a little over 300hp. and the Cobra w/ 390hp. You didn't see Ford getting rid of them because of crappy sales.

But I agree with the addition of H/P driving classes. I'm 27 and I have friends that are 18-19 years old and mommy and daddy buy them everything, so what's a 450hp. camaro. Then 2 weeks later they all smashed up. And of course the likely story " I wasn't f*cking around". At least learning how to handle that kind of power and what to do and how to avoid a crisis would be very educating, and if helped drop insurance costs that would be an even better advantage. I know it was nice when I took one for my motorcycle.

I realize that most enthusiasts like lot’s of HP and Torque and live by the adage “too much is not enough”…however, with some of the recent threads in this forum (as well as other sites) talking about HP in the 400 and up range for a (relatively) inexpensive sports coupe like the Camaro, I find myself more and more often asking when is enough HP actually too much?

I wonder if I am the only one concerned that unless the manufacturers who are producing these vehicles (vehicles with 0-60 in the under 4 second mark and top speeds approaching 200MPH) steps in of their own accord with a plan; then either the federal government or the insurance industry, or both, will.

Let’s face it, the average driver in this country can barely manage to park between the lines and about the only emergency maneuver they can handle is to stand on the breaks and close their eyes…if they had to take a real performance driving course before getting behind the wheel 80% would flunk. And even though most, especially on boards like this, like to think of themselves as great drivers, most ARE average.

Were I GM and producing 500+HP Corvette or a 400+HP Camaro I’d have to be at least a little bit worried about a multi-Billion $ lawsuit when some “adult” is stupid enough to let his 17 year old drive his Z06…now we can all say that it’s the parent’s fault for being that stupid but we all know it happens or the 17 year old will take the car without permission and it’s probably only a matter of time before some crack pot decides to blame GM for his bad judgment or his late son’s stupidity.

And how long are the insurance companies going to stay out of it?

How anxious are they going to be to insure a Z/28 with 400+ HP and is so widely available to the public? It’s one thing to have that kind of HP available in cars at or over the six figure $ mark since relatively few can actually afford them but the Camaro will probably be priced right in with a majority of cars available in 2009 – if insurance companies refuse to insure cars like the Z/28 or the insurance winds up costing more per month that the average payment, how many Z/28’s and their ilk will be sold (or continue to be produced)?

I’m not claiming to have an answer here…just thought I’d put this out for comments/see what some of you are thinking.

Stick to your Pink Barbie vette Mr. Girlie Man... Theres Never enough Horsepower!!! I won't be satisfied till the car does a wheelie every time you leave first gear.

Thanks for your comments...

While I agree in general and say that you make a very logical argument; I'm not so sure the government would stay out of it as you suggest...while your argument is sound, I would suggest that the government might stick their regulatory power into the horsepower issue because...

1)although it may prove the least meaningful in reducing accidents, it's easier to address/regulate than driver training and education

2)there are probably more people who think horsepower is bad than good and would welcome the regulation

3)It's an easy way to appear to "care" and do something without actually having to do much of anything.

I don't know, maybe I'm just getting cynical in my old age. :)

I find it simply insane that our elected officials and public servants should even consider the concept of "looking good" as opposed to fixing a problem. The advances in automotive technology in the past 20 years have resulted in a breed of automobiles from the Z06 right down to the Prius that the average driver who passed their driving test in 1975 is simply unqualified to operate
without training.

Almost all accidents are the result of some sort of driver error... From failing to take weather conditions into account, driver distractions within the vehicle, or the driver making a decision to simply go too fast or fail to drive defensively, or the decision that the driver is sober enough to drive home after three drinks at the local bar.

Regulating horsepower simply dimishes the ability of driver who are trained to handle it to avoid dangerous situations.

Adding VSC,ABS,TC to vehicles without training is the equivalent of providing a loaded gun to an eight year old. Sure these technologies make the vehicle safer in the majority of situations, but these features also dimish the ability of an untrained driver to accurately assess the level of risk associated with their driving habits.

I saw on the news today about the increasing number of roll overs and to me the answer is simple... Cars skid less and they will roll over more. There is a direct cause and effect to the implementation of new technology.

In my opinion, every vehicle released with computer controlled handling absolutely needs to have a simpel and easy to find and convenient manual override switch so those drivers that so choose do not have to succumb to the accompanying pitfalls of the technology. Hopefully an associated driver training course would convince 99.9 percent of the rest of the drivers to keep these safety features enabled, but the ability to diable them will allow a driver to accurately assess the driving conditions prior to entering onto a public road and creating a public hazard of themselves.

Heatmaker,

Thanks for adding so much to the discussion!

Your signature should, perhaps, be revised to say “Bigger Cam, Bigger Heads, Bigger Red Splotch on the Wall Where The Road Curved And My Wheelie Car DIDN'T.”

tnthub,

I agree with you to a great extent and it is insane but quite normal that the government will almost always take the easy way out and do so for appearances only...as evidence, I would suggest that one need look no further than the ridiculous "55 MPH" speed limit.

I agree with you to a great extent and it is insane but quite normal that the government will almost always take the easy way out and do so for appearances only...as evidence, I would suggest that one need look no further than the ridiculous "55 MPH" speed limit.[/QUOTE]

That's the only reason I like michigan, 70mph baby. :D :D

The way things are going pretty soon a soccer mom van is going to be able to outrun the PDs Crown Vics!

I agree; however, it is a little difficult to control the type of people and/or their behaviors behind the wheel. Not to mention, I am sure there is a very strong correlation between the types of people who will buy a camaro and wreckless driving. If you can't control one's wreckless driving behavior you have to look for something else to control for, and the only other variable is the car. If you stick a person who is prone to wreckless driving behind the wheel of a 450HP they will then have the ability to drive more wrecklessly than if you stuck that same person behind the wheel of a 300 HP car.



Honestly I think a wreckless driver would be pretty much just as dangerous behind the wheel of a 300 HP car as he would be as a 450 HP car as neither of them are your everyday grocery getters...

Then doesn't that just bring us back to the question I asked at the beginning..."how much horse power is too much"? What good is it, really, if Camaro's and other "modestly priced" cars with significant HP (as in 400+) end up not being bought because the people who most want them (typically "younger" drivers) can afford the cars but can't afford the insurance coverage (or perhaps, can't get insurance at any price)?

To answer the original question, I feel there is no limit to "too much power". However, you are never going to be able to buy a 700 HP car for $25K. Even a ~3,500 pound Camaro with ~400 HP selling for ~$30K is really not that easily attainable for someone in high school or working their first real job out of college. Sure, people will buy it, but it's not like it's going to be rolling out of dealer lots for a $259 a month payment. More like ~$600 a month plus insurance. It's really not THAT attainable to young people when you think about it. Well, at least when I think about it anyways.

Also, I would like to know how many accidents are really caused because of "too much power". Most of the accidents I've seen were in sub 200 HP ****boxes running into each other or off the road, not $35K 390+ HP Mustang Cobras slamming into guardrails at 160 MPH.

The way things are going pretty soon a soccer mom van is going to be able to outrun the PDs Crown Vics!


Most of them will, as is...

Doesn't help that crown vics are slow.

OK. I have to say, first of all. I fit the stereotype, I am a 17 year old male, with a love of fast cars. Especially the look (and rumored 600 hp supercharged LS7 was it? Hot Rod mag. December issue i think.) of the 2009 Camaro.Truthfully i know that if i get behind the wheel of a 300 HP plus car. I will speed. period. Going to a driving school to learn how to handle the car will help a little bit. Then testosterone sets in and you are speeding down the 40 MPH speed limit road at 90 next to the Rousch Mustang. ( I know i'm gonna get flamed for this post.) The fact of the matter is I would love to buy the 09 camaro. Reality - I won't get anything over 300 HP - guess that means the V6 for me. even if i do buy it - guess what - insurance is gonna be bad. I'm really thinking about taking up on California's offer. - that is, giving a deposit of 35,000 dollars to DMV. considered proof of insurance. if i had the money to do that. i'll get the RS. with 600 HP . probably just to tell my 19 year old friend who owns a porsche boxster - that i'm faster than him. bak to the subject. that would be really cool if it was a mandated performance driving class. even cooler if it gave me a break on insurance. all i can say is vroom vroom.:cool:

What about all the guys/gals that grew up in the 60s/70s. The first round of muscle cars. We had power, but NO safety. Now we have ABS brakes, traction control, airbags, SEAT BELTS.
Back then we ran around and did stuff we wonder how we got away with it.Then the 80s arrive and it is 4 cylinder HE**. We have a whole generation that doesn't know of the power of HP.
Give them some credit and let them learn, if they can afford to buy it!
Are you going to make them take a time-out(?) if they do something wrong?
There are so many safety features on a car today, yes it does give some sense of "I can do anything" but I think the ones who will really buy the top horsepower vehicles will be the parents not the kid.

Also, I would like to know how many accidents are really caused because of "too much power". Most of the accidents I've seen were in sub 200 HP ****boxes running into each other or off the road, not $35K 390+ HP Mustang Cobras slamming into guardrails at 160 MPH.
This is what I see happening as well. It seems to defy the logic that more power equalls less control. I believe those lacking power to "get out of harms way" are more likely to have an accident. I can't tell you how many times a quick stab of the throttle has saved my rear!
There's never going to be a safeguard for stupidity, and any external control that attemps to remove responsibility from the individual driver will fail.
We all must be responsible for our own actions, simple as that, I believe..
But having a test mule and an off-road course, for the cause of letting someone see just how powerful a vehicle is, and if they can control it...isn't a bad idea. The same thing is done by most motorcycle dealers about their "R" models.

The issue as I see is more than “more horse power than people can handle”…even run-of-the-mill family sedans these days have more than sufficient HP to get people into trouble and I think all of us know two very basic things...

1. “Driver Training” in this country is mostly a joke and none of the courses offered today teach real driving skills/accident avoidance/emergency maneuvers.

2. Most of us simply aren’t as good of a driver as we like to think we are.

That said I see the basic issue being how insurance companies/government will view the greatly increasing HP available at a relatively inexpensive price; especially if there is an increase in accidents involving high performance cars like the fifth-generation.

I’m going to heavily paraphrase here and my memory may not be 100% but a few years ago at F-Body Gathering in Atlanta, Scott S. noted that Chevrolet has documented that people tended to have more accidents from more aggressive driving in Chvey Luminas than in the almost identical Corsicia (at least I think those were the two vehicles)…the point being that because the Lumana was more “aggressively styled” it tended to get driven more aggressively and, therefore, more often wreched.

I can’t help but wonder if people in high performance cars don’t always tend to do the same thing and if so, might they be even more inclined to do so if they have 450HP on tap than 300?

I may be completely wrong but I still see some over aggressive lawmakers (state or Federal or both) or a very scared insurance industry on the horizon to rain on the high performance parade we are currently experiencing if the issue isn’t addressed by the manufacturers themselves in some proactive way.

I could be wrong but, I believe the majority of Corsica's were touting 2.2 Liter motors, not known for inspiring spirited driving, while Lumina's carried more 3.1's on average with a DOHC 3.4 as the Z car. Which had a more powerful exhaust note as well. Also the wheel/tire/suspension packages probably helped inspire Lumina drivers as opposed to the hub-cap toting 13" wheels on the Corsica's...like my uncle's red '94.
My cousin Tim had a 3.1L blue mid '90's Corsica, with a performance wheel/tire/suspension pkg, and he frequently laid stripps of rubber at take offs.
It would be interesting to see data on all this, and as I know you're aware, politicians will use whatever poll that supports their point of view.
I see more of a problem with people properly maintaining their vehicles. Most have cheap hard tires, worn brakes, misaligned vehicles, bouncing down the road on worn out suspension parts.
I see far more accidents involving poorly maintained cars than not, and those people tend to care as little about their driving habits as they do their cars...just my observations though.

I do agree about the poor quality of driving instruction for teens coming up. And many just elect to wait until their of legal age to skip the training altogether. I believe every young person should take advantage of a good driving school before striking out on the road, be they 16 or 26...

I think that payments and insurance costs will limit kids somewhat from affording these cars, as they have in the past. There will always be kids whos dady bought them the car or whatnot, but i have know kids whos parents have bought them cars and paid for cam and heads ect. I think that the driving school would be cool, but dont see them requiring it.

As far as the cars go, I dont know how many of you have driven the new z06, but to me it seemed extreemly tame for a 500 hp car. It was obviously a monster, but it still felt under control especially with traction control on. It will take off like a bat out of hell, but I think that due to the more advanced suspension, and engine control, it just wanted to go straight where you pointed it, and not try to go all over the road.

There will always be idiots, but like said before, an idiot in a 250 hp front wheel drive car can do as much damage as they can in a 400 hp car. Honestly a 300 hp car is enough to send yourself sliding out of control into a tree. 400 hp with better suspension and traction control may actually be safer.

I have a hayabusa, and I cant honestly see them limiting someone from buying a 400 hp car that might run 12's when anyone can buy a bike that you can run 9's on out of the box.

Ben

hell a 270 hp tuned port car is enough to take out a telephone pole lol.

the 500 plus HP car just means more overtime is needed to pay for the insurance, lots of overtime.

the bike point is a good one though, they don't limit those of us that have bikes capable of 175 + so i don't see it happening for the cars.

thanks
anthony

after an 8 second 150+mph run and a hose breaks spewing fluid knocking out steering control and belts and one finds themselve heading for the wall wishing they were driving a Volvo 240 wagon!:D

as far as bikes go... they aren't as much a risk for the insurance companies because there aren't nearly as many bikes on the road as cars..

as far as bikes go... they aren't as much a risk for the insurance companies because there aren't nearly as many bikes on the road as cars..

.........that, and probably the fact that if they do get in an accident with a car, usually the bike rider is on the losing end with little or no injuries to the car driver and passengers.

.........that, and probably the fact that if they do get in an accident with a car, usually the bike rider is on the losing end with little or no injuries to the car driver and passengers.

thats why a good helmet and proper riding gear is important, but insurance on bikes, particularly super sports is not cheap, my insurance on my zx6r (600 cc super sport) is the same as momar's hayabusa (1300cc sport tourer).

i know if they offer the supercharged 500+ hp model, thats whats takin my money, and i will also be 25 by then so my insurance should be cheaper if i dont get any 100+mph speeding tickets before then, lol

thanks
anthony

I think that payments and insurance costs will limit kids somewhat from affording these cars, as they have in the past. There will always be kids whos dady bought them the car or whatnot, but i have know kids whos parents have bought them cars and paid for cam and heads ect. I think that the driving school would be cool, but dont see them requiring it.

As far as the cars go, I dont know how many of you have driven the new z06, but to me it seemed extreemly tame for a 500 hp car. It was obviously a monster, but it still felt under control especially with traction control on. It will take off like a bat out of hell, but I think that due to the more advanced suspension, and engine control, it just wanted to go straight where you pointed it, and not try to go all over the road.

There will always be idiots, but like said before, an idiot in a 250 hp front wheel drive car can do as much damage as they can in a 400 hp car. Honestly a 300 hp car is enough to send yourself sliding out of control into a tree. 400 hp with better suspension and traction control may actually be safer.

I have a hayabusa, and I cant honestly see them limiting someone from buying a 400 hp car that might run 12's when anyone can buy a bike that you can run 9's on out of the box.

Ben
you forgot to say for a lot less money.

The insurance companies want to really rack it up. Its a business yes, everyone wants to earn money, but when you get a company that can collect 350M a year and give out 15M its really profitable. Why in the hell do they want to find any foreseeable excuse to either not insure you or not cover you.

I find it ridiculous when i have to ensure 1k/year on a 15k car just to get the loan. Here the loan is NOT approved if an insurance is not issued.

I just think its a load of crap because most accidents is kids stealing daddy's car, drunk driving and the stupid idiot at 25mph on the freeway.

Lets be honest:

Video games and The Matrix caused Columbine...

Guns kill people...

...and horsepower does too..

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

I have a hayabusa, and I cant honestly see them limiting someone from buying a 400 hp car that might run 12's when anyone can buy a bike that you can run 9's on out of the box.


you have to wear a seat belt in the car but no helmet on a bike in a lot of states now????

4 points: I had (at the time in the late 80's) the fastest car in the school parking lot. The first thing I did was not rap it around a pole. I did get threatend to lose the camaro for a rusty 4 banger if I got a ticket. I deceided driving the camaro smart was more fun than a 4 cylinder mustange fast.

I think driving school is overrated. Take the beast out in the snow and drive fast and smooth. Same thing happens just at half the speed. A local cone race or large parking lot can teach a lot too.

There is know such thing as two much HP!

I do miss racing the old '83 HO or the '86 IROC against like machinery. Racing 200hp cars from stoplights is FUN!!! Racing 500hp cars from light to light isn't (ok its fun just dangers things happen fast.) I never did lose in the '83 HO, didn't race a GNX one night but that was one fast car;)

i was 19 when i wrapped the pole in my iroc, so i had a few years of driving under my belt when it happened. **** happens, and if someone buys a new z28 and kills a pole with it, then thats why full coverage is important.

you live and you learn. i learned the hard way, everyone has those moments.

US data

http://www.bts.gov/publications/national_transportation_statistics/2002/html/table_02_17.html

The number of vehicular fatalities has plateaued around 42k per year from 1995 to 2001.

The number of injuries fell by about has fluctuated from 3,000,000 to 3,500,000 from 1995 to 2001 with no overwhelming trend.

The number of crashes has generally fluctuated between 6 and 7 million from 1995 to 2001.

To find statistical significance you have to compare rates, because it corresponds to how much driving is going on.

No big shock, the number of vehicle miles traveled (VMT) has increased dramatically from the 1960's. From 1995 to 2001 it increased every year. VMT is up to 2,749,803,000,000. In 1960 it was only 718,763,000,000.

The average number of fatalities per million vehicle miles had dropped from 1.7 in 1995 to 1.5 in 2001. In 1960 the average number was 5.1. In 1980 it dropped to 3.3 and in 1990 it dropped to 2.1.

The average number of injuries has dropped every year since 1995. In 1995 the average number of injuries per Million VMT was 151. In 2000 it was 116.

The average number of crashes per million vmt dropped consistently from 1995 to 2000. In 1995 it was 302 and in 2000 it was 233.

I would assert that the average vehicle in the US has had a net horsepower increase from 1995 to 2001. The averages show that overall safety has increased. There are a ton of variables that can lead up to and in combination result in a vehicular crash. To say that limiting horsepower is going to be the magical fairy dust of improving safety is BS.

How much horsepower is too much? When no one wants to pay for more.

US data

http://www.bts.gov/publications/national_transportation_statistics/2002/html/table_02_17.html

The number of vehicular fatalities has plateaued around 42k per year from 1995 to 2001.

The number of injuries fell by about has fluctuated from 3,000,000 to 3,500,000 from 1995 to 2001 with no overwhelming trend.

The number of crashes has generally fluctuated between 6 and 7 million from 1995 to 2001.

To find statistical significance you have to compare rates, because it corresponds to how much driving is going on.

No big shock, the number of vehicle miles traveled (VMT) has increased dramatically from the 1960's. From 1995 to 2001 it increased every year. VMT is up to 2,749,803,000,000. In 1960 it was only 718,763,000,000.

The average number of fatalities per million vehicle miles had dropped from 1.7 in 1995 to 1.5 in 2001. In 1960 the average number was 5.1. In 1980 it dropped to 3.3 and in 1990 it dropped to 2.1.

The average number of injuries has dropped every year since 1995. In 1995 the average number of injuries per Million VMT was 151. In 2000 it was 116.

The average number of crashes per million vmt dropped consistently from 1995 to 2000. In 1995 it was 302 and in 2000 it was 233.

I would assert that the average vehicle in the US has had a net horsepower increase from 1995 to 2001. The averages show that overall safety has increased. There are a ton of variables that can lead up to and in combination result in a vehicular crash. To say that limiting horsepower is going to be the magical fairy dust of improving safety is BS.

How much horsepower is too much? When no one wants to pay for more.
i aggree with you wholeheartedly.

its like saying that only speed kills.

Do not underestimate the ability of the Federal government (or of a California do-gooder) to make an issue where there is none...to offer a solution to a problem that does not exits.

"How much is too much horsepower" may well depend on the political flavor of the month and all the statisticts in the world to the contraty won't matter.

These are the same people who think the answer to "gun crime" is to take guns away from law-abiding citizens so that they can no longer protect themselves...these are the same people who firmly believe that second-hand smoke is dangerous to health despite all the medical research to the contraty and then ban all smoking even in restaurants rather than letting the restaurant owner decide what makes sense for his business. :)

THis thread is pointless... I mean it would only make sense for people with modded cars not to complain about HP.

Yes it is pointless...and you spelled Villain wrong in your sig :D

People will pay good money for performance....ridiculous performance. Too much is never enough.

Yes it is pointless...and you spelled Villain wrong in your sig :D

People will pay good money for performance....ridiculous performance. Too much is never enough.

It's stuck that way... I can't fix it or I get an error.

THis thread is pointless... I mean it would only make sense for people with modded cars not to complain about HP.

If this thread is pointless, that means you have no point?

If this thread is pointless, that means you have no point?
His point is that it's pointless. And really, it is pointless....but an interesting discussion either way.

I didn't read the whole post, got through 3 pages, but I thought I'd comment about the insurance aspect since I just yesterday had an hour long conversation with my insurance agent about this same thing.

I had a 2003 Tacoma 4x4 that we got rid of in March of last year, insurance on it was $130/mo full coverage. We got a 350z, insurance on it is $108/mo. Reason for the drop (it's obviously a much faster/more powerful automobile):

Full coverage covers the damage you do to others as well, my agent said that trucks cause more damage when they do get into wrecks than cars, which is why the truck was more expensive to insure. 4x4 adds to that as well. (this is why that one person who replied said his expedition was more expensive to insure than his 02 SS Vert)

Also, vehicle history has a lot to do with it as well. Take a vette, we were doing a quote on me on a Z06 ('01). That's only $95/mo. Why? Because people who own vettes are usually more mature and responsible than those who own Camaros.

All quotes were for above basic full coverage, I do carry more than that...for the rare instance I get in an accident and total a $100K car the other person might be driving. It's worth the small increase in premiums to get double on collision coverage.

I'm looking to get another F-Body soon, and it will only be $105/mo (even cheaper than the 350z). Reason for that...because the parts to fix a wrecked F-Body are cheaper than a 350z. There is a LOT that insurance companies consider when setting rates on cars, HP is just a small item in and of itself.

Also, it would cost more for me to insure a BMW 325i than a 02 SS...why? Replacement costs. Even though the SS is rated at 310hp and the 325i is rated at 210hp. And yes, it is good to be 27 with a multi car discount and your house insurance through the same company, you get all kinds of discounts.

**EDIT**

My agent said that the most expensive "normal" car she sees people insure are Neons. She said those things run on average $150/mo to insure because the will be totaled by backing over a mailbox...so build quality is something they look at too.

The European cars have a much higher average HP than the American ones do. Also, they have the Autobahn highway in Germany allowing cars to go as fast as they want. They don't have a problem with it and neither should we.

Insurance companies and Oil companies are the richest companies in the world. They are making boatloads of money because of these higher HP cars. You use more gas and it costs more to insure.

The problem drivers and the majority of accidents are those putting makeup on, reading a magazine, talking on a cell phone, or holding conversations with others in the car looking away at them to speak, falling asleep, driving drunk, picking something up off the floor, looking in their purse, yelling at their kids, daydreaming, sleeping, driving too fast for road conditions, etc. etc. etc.

The cars with more HP today handle 10x better than my old 72' Cuda on Bias ply tires with a crappy suspension. It did one thing well, went fast in a straight line. Try taking a Corvette Z06 out on the Autocross track with Active Handling on and tell me how it handles. It is AMAZING!!!! When I first drove one, I could not believe how awesome that car handled. I would rather drive that on the streets and highways than a big old tank (SUV) that handles like crap, takes forever to slow down, and is prone to flipping over. When and SUV hits you, especially the bigger ones (Excursions, Navigators, Escalades) you are going to be in big trouble. They kill a lot of people. Because of the size and weight of the vehicle. You are driving a Tank on public streets.

It doesn't matter what you are driving, Common sense must prevail.

Idiots will kill themselves in a Hyundai or a Ferrari, it doesn't matter.

Happy Holidays. Remember, Be responsible, Don't drink and drive. Brought to you by a gear head, and concerned CamaroZ28 member:D

Happy Holidays. Remember, Be responsible, Don't drink and drive. Brought to you by a gear head, and concerned CamaroZ28 member:D

Didn't realize how little I posted here and how much of a lurker I am. Join date of 1998, but this guy joined in 2003 and has how many more posts than me? :D

The European cars have a much higher average HP than the American ones do. Also, they have the Autobahn highway in Germany allowing cars to go as fast as they want. They don't have a problem with it and neither should we.

European cars on the average are much LOWER hp than here. Most cars over there are under 2.0L and many are diesel. Also, far few people have cars over there.


Insurance companies and Oil companies are the richest companies in the world. They are making boatloads of money because of these higher HP cars. You use more gas and it costs more to insure.

The insurace companies are making money, but they like their margins. Any car that will hurt those margins will get increased until the margin is back where they like it.

The problem drivers and the majority of accidents are those putting makeup on, reading a magazine, talking on a cell phone, or holding conversations with others in the car looking away at them to speak, falling asleep, driving drunk, picking something up off the floor, looking in their purse, yelling at their kids, daydreaming, sleeping, driving too fast for road conditions, etc. etc. etc.

Exactly. Inattentive drivers cause many pproblems. It is not the speeders in high hp cars.


The cars with more HP today handle 10x better than my old 72' Cuda on Bias ply tires with a crappy suspension. It did one thing well, went fast in a straight line. Try taking a Corvette Z06 out on the Autocross track with Active Handling on and tell me how it handles. It is AMAZING!!!! When I first drove one, I could not believe how awesome that car handled. I would rather drive that on the streets and highways than a big old tank (SUV) that handles like crap, takes forever to slow down, and is prone to flipping over. When and SUV hits you, especially the bigger ones (Excursions, Navigators, Escalades) you are going to be in big trouble. They kill a lot of people. Because of the size and weight of the vehicle. You are driving a Tank on public streets.

Tires have improved more than anything. The big difference today that offsets the saftey margin is the sheer number of cars on the road and the overcrowding of the freeways.

I realize that most enthusiasts like lot’s of HP and Torque and live by the adage “too much is not enough”…however, with some of the recent threads in this forum (as well as other sites) talking about HP in the 400 and up range for a (relatively) inexpensive sports coupe like the Camaro, I find myself more and more often asking when is enough HP actually too much?

This reminds me of a saying, "when I can spin the tires from turn to turn on every road course in the world, then I will have enough hp."


I wonder if I am the only one concerned that unless the manufacturers who are producing these vehicles (vehicles with 0-60 in the under 4 second mark and top speeds approaching 200MPH) steps in of their own accord with a plan; then either the federal government or the insurance industry, or both, will.

I don't see this happening. Very high speed crashes are rare, and most will associate the speed with the hp since all cars can attain the speed at which most crashes occur.


Let’s face it, the average driver in this country can barely manage to park between the lines and about the only emergency maneuver they can handle is to stand on the breaks and close their eyes…if they had to take a real performance driving course before getting behind the wheel 80% would flunk. And even though most, especially on boards like this, like to think of themselves as great drivers, most ARE average.

Very true. For most people, the steering wheel turns into something just to hold onto during any kind of emerency that a good driver can avoid. I instruct for many clubs that hold road course events, and many people think they can drive so much better than they can, especially the older crowd (50+). It actually takes longer to teach an older driver than a younger one how to properly drive the course.

Were I GM and producing 500+HP Corvette or a 400+HP Camaro I’d have to be at least a little bit worried about a multi-Billion $ lawsuit when some “adult” is stupid enough to let his 17 year old drive his Z06…now we can all say that it’s the parent’s fault for being that stupid but we all know it happens or the 17 year old will take the car without permission and it’s probably only a matter of time before some crack pot decides to blame GM for his bad judgment or his late son’s stupidity.

The lawsuit idea is a whole other problem. Personally, I think people need to be held accountable for their own actions and not try to displace the blame. I doubt that an automaker will ever be made to pay because a car is working properly. They might win in a lower court because of an incompetent judge, but they will end up losing eventually.

Just to throw my 2 cents in.Insurance companys do a point system as well as vehicle clasification when they figure insurance rates.They look at things like the amount of tickets nation wide a particular car may get,how many are totaled a year,the average age of a driver for a particular car,and like the other guy said price of the parts.A covettes ranks lower on the point system than say an 03 cobra because like someone has allready said a majority of the time those who can afford a vette normaly are a little older and much more mature as opposed to some high school kid pinching his pinnies to pay for a cobra(sorry bout the cobra reference chevy man all the way!)Then you have the wonderful sports car clasification and they figure more often than not youre gonna enjoy that power and probably have an accident.And to top it all off being men there gonna push the price up a lil more because men are normaly more aggresive drivers.Its a racket is what it boils down to in my opinion!

Also how high the theft rate is on a car i fogot about that!

It will be times like these when i will be thankful to be over 25 and married...

my wife already said yes to the new camaro and im 33 (34 on 1/3/07), married and 2 kids.. our 96 houses us just fine....

I honestly believe our legislation is lagging the Auto Industry in amending laws that were designed for older, more archaic vehicles.
I would argue that more accidents are now being caused by low speed limits on freeways.
Bored drivers find themselves either falling asleep, or speeding to escape the madness, having to pass through a sea of slow moving traffic. And causing more vehicles to have to spend more time riding side-by-side at freeway speeds.
Today's cars can cruise at 60 mph at barely above an idle, some states have increased limits to 70 mph, which most drivers don't exceed 70-75 mph anyways, driving by feel-feedback.
As vehicles and roadways continue to improve, limits need to be increased, contrary to popular brainwashing; and then good driver training will be a must.

I long for the day as described in I-Robot...vehicles can drive themselves on mundain trips to the office, or you can switch to manual and enjoy a Sunday drive.(with several hundred horsepower or more..) :)

I'm happy just driving my 95 Z28 vert right now. When I started driving in 03 I hit a fence after I started driving by myself (low end torque > me). These cars can be really dangerous with a young person is behind the wheel. I think in general cars are becoming more powerful and I'm not just talking about 2 door sports cars. Remember in the 90's LT1 powered vehicles were some of the fastest on the road, now in their stock trim they can be beaten by some 4 door sedans. 250+HP cars and trucks are now getting to be a pretty common sight on the street.

People will pay good money for performance....ridiculous performance. Too much is never enough.

You are correct... I know somebody who just dropped over $50k on mods alone, for his Z06. A forged 408 stroker, twin turbo setup, DTE Stg 5 rearend, CCW wheels, carbon fiber hood, fully built tranny, McLeod twin disk, etc. He barely drives the car, but he just HAD to have 1000HP. :bow:

As a 16 year old with a massivly underpowered vehicle and a need for speed, I disaggre. All teenagers that like cars think they know the basics of how to not get hurt, and then end up getting hurt. Kids think they know how to drive fast cuzz of what they saw on the movies, what their friends have told them, and when they have seen in video games.

I was 17 years old when I got my Trans Am. I powerslid the car all the time when I first got it and now it do it here and there and I never did it in dangerous areas (other cars, poles etc) that's what the f-body is for. It's a fun car, I dont understand driving a car for the look. :rolleyes: Sports cars are meant to be driven.

As for not being able to handle a car? I'd take a new Z06 and be willing to bet I wouldn't crash it, I don't understand how you could crash it, take a turn too fast, oversteer in a powerslide? Know the cars limits and don't be a retard.

Sports cars are meant to be driven.

As for not being able to handle a car? I'd take a new Z06 and be willing to bet I wouldn't crash it, I don't understand how you could crash it, take a turn too fast, oversteer in a powerslide? Know the cars limits and don't be a retard.
Hmmm :think: .....

1993 Pontiac Trans Am M6 (Sleeping...)
Intake/Catback - 14.4 @ 100 mph - 2.45 60' :o

Looks like somebody needs to learn to manage ~275 HP before they're handed ~505 HP ;).

:p

It depends on the handling, the weight, the type of power.

If it handles poor, weighs a lot and has peaky power, it'll suck.

If it handles well, weighs 3000 lbs and has a broad range of power, it'll be good.

If it handles grreat, weighs under 2800 lbs and has a lot of power from off idle and gradually rises to redline, it'll rock everyone.

So it depends on a lot of things.

If they make it 2700 lbs with 400 hp with 250 plus off idle, and it handles well without being bone jarring, it'll be an awesome performer.
If they made it 2500 lbs with 390 hp, with everything else the same, it'd perform better.

If they make it 2700 lbs with 400 hp with 250 plus off idle, and it handles well without being bone jarring, it'll be an awesome performer.
If they made it 2500 lbs with 390 hp, with everything else the same, it'd perform better.
Are you talking about a "real car" (ie: Camaro concept) or a "fantasy car"?!? :confused: Because anything south of ~3500 lbs is pretty much out of the question as far as the Camaro is concerned!! ;)

Now if you're just talking about a "hypothetical car" with ~390 HP that weighed ~2500 lbs, now we're talking about something truly spectacular :yes:.

Hmmm :think: .....



Looks like somebody needs to learn to manage ~275 HP before they're handed ~505 HP ;).

:p

:( :( :(

i thought i had heard somewhere that Chevy does require a performance driving test for buyers of the C6 Z06... i may be imagining that though


Anybody can buy a C6 Z06, as long as you have $80K, a drivers license and insurance.

nevaaaaar

Back in '69 my neighbor came back from Vietnam and bought a new '69 'vette convertible with a 427. He didn't have it 6 months before he wrecked it. He then bought a '70 Chevelle SS 454 w/ cowl induction. That lasted about the same time before he wrecked it. Then the insurance company said he needed to tone down and he got a real dog (comparitively). I think it was a '71 Ford Cobra Torino or something like that? So this guy had two of my all time dream cars and wrecked them. Somehting to be said about "too much horsepower".

So this guy had two of my all time dream cars and wrecked them. Somehting to be said about "too much horsepower".
Nah. Too much money. Not too many brain cells :rolleyes:.

Yeah, i've got a neighbor kid who has wrecked nearly every car he's owned, and he's went through at least 8 that I know of, only one with 300hp+...
I second the reason for a low brain to hp ratio.

Are you talking about a "real car" (ie: Camaro concept) or a "fantasy car"?!? :confused: Because anything south of ~3500 lbs is pretty much out of the question as far as the Camaro is concerned!! ;)

Now if you're just talking about a "hypothetical car" with ~390 HP that weighed ~2500 lbs, now we're talking about something truly spectacular :yes:.

lol, yeah I am talking about a real car. New cars are so loaded up with electronics, sound deadening and extras, it'd be nice if more than one make (lotus)tried to make a low weight vehicle. Even better if they could make it both ways, a light version and a loaded up version.

Considering the advances in aluminum and composites, (the 4th gens even used plastic and fiberglass) it should be possible, plus it'd really help with fuel economy. The actual engineering involved would be what raises the prices up to above reasonable, not the material. Unless they started working with the materials more closely in as many applications as they can (the more they use it the easier it gets).

Not like the old days with heater delete and roll-up window option. It would be nice to see a low cost option like that for us people who are into modding. Already modded my 1997 after 1 year owning it brand new. Nothing like Torque and HP, and the driveline to handle it.

It depends on the handling, the weight, the type of power.

If it handles poor, weighs a lot and has peaky power, it'll suck.

If it handles well, weighs 3000 lbs and has a broad range of power, it'll be good.

If it handles grreat, weighs under 2800 lbs and has a lot of power from off idle and gradually rises to redline, it'll rock everyone.

So it depends on a lot of things.

If they make it 2700 lbs with 400 hp with 250 plus off idle, and it handles well without being bone jarring, it'll be an awesome performer.
If they made it 2500 lbs with 390 hp, with everything else the same, it'd perform better.

The only car you're going to find with those power:weight numbers will be a kit car. try to think of the new Camaro more as a slimmed down current generation GTO (when considering power to weight ratio).

The only car you're going to find with those power:weight numbers will be a kit car. try to think of the new Camaro more as a slimmed down current generation GTO (when considering power to weight ratio).

the Elise is a Sub ton car. It can be done with a street legal production car.

the Elise is a Sub ton car. It can be done with a street legal production car.Have you priced an Elise lately? :irk:

I don't care what they put out but the base model better have 400 and the SS model 450 at the very least to keep up with Fords line up. There is no SVT for GM so why not make a more powerful top model. And if not that, bring back engine options.

Have you priced an Elise lately? :irk:

What, like this one (http://www.autotrader.com/fyc/vdp.jsp?car_id=213396828&dealer_id=57970317&car_year=2005&search_type=both&num_records=&keywordsfyc=&make=LOTUS&model=LOTELISE&transmission=&distance=25&address=60563&make2=&advanced=&certified=&default_sort=priceDESC&max_mileage=&max_price=&sort_type=priceASC&min_price=&body_code=0&end_year=2007&color=&keywordsrep=&start_year=2000&drive=&engine=&style_flag=1&doors=&fuel=&cardist=17)for $35k?

Or this brand new one (http://www.autotrader.com/fyc/vdp.jsp?car_id=213876411&dealer_id=554502&car_year=2006&search_type=both&num_records=&keywordsfyc=&make=LOTUS&model=LOTELISE&transmission=&distance=25&address=60563&make2=&advanced=&certified=&default_sort=priceDESC&max_mileage=&max_price=&sort_type=priceASC&min_price=&body_code=0&end_year=2007&color=&keywordsrep=&start_year=2000&drive=&engine=&style_flag=1&doors=&fuel=&cardist=8) for $48k?

Vets are more expensive than an Elise.

Have you priced an Elise lately? :irk:

Actually yes I have, I am developing a carbon fiber body for them right now and I know what they cost. The main reason they are as "expensive" as they are is the low production numbers and assembly techniques (mostly by hand). There are currently less than 3500 Lotus Elises and Exiges in the US right now. That is a fraction of one month's sales for a Camaro.

I'd like to see engine and trans options available away from ANY other packaged options. That way they would stay affordable as long as they do not try to sell an engine with 2 more cylinders or with a bigger camshaft for some ignorant $5k above the base engine.
You should be able to get a base no-frills Camaro, with the biggest, nastiest, high-hp V8 without any other un-needed JUNK such as T-Tops, power leather seats, upgraded audio, and any other baloney NOT related to going fast.
In fact, I don't even like forcing BRAKE options onto the bigger engines.
A base V6 car takes no less time to slow from 120mph than the biggest hp V8 car.
And NO, there is NO such thing as TOO MUCH Horsepower !

I'd like to see engine and trans options available away from ANY other packaged options. That way they would stay affordable as long as they do not try to sell an engine with 2 more cylinders or with a bigger camshaft for some ignorant $5k above the base engine.
You should be able to get a base no-frills Camaro, with the biggest, nastiest, high-hp V8 without any other un-needed JUNK such as T-Tops, power leather seats, upgraded audio, and any other baloney NOT related to going fast.
In fact, I don't even like forcing BRAKE options onto the bigger engines.
A base V6 car takes no less time to slow from 120mph than the biggest hp V8 car.
And NO, there is NO such thing as TOO MUCH Horsepower !

:bow:

I hope Scott is taking notes and passing them on.

I do think IF (get it? big if, lol I kill me) we get a iron block V8 as the base V8, it will be heavier than a Aluminum V6, but I don't think they will use an iron block, so the braking distances should be very similar. I plan to upgrade the brakes on mine anyway, so I would rather not pay for upgraded brakes I will be removing anyway.

the Elise is a Sub ton car. It can be done with a street legal production car.

How much horsepower does it have?!
And, I'll take the back seat, trunk, and extra safety of a Camaro over an Elise - with the extra HP and weight that comes with it. The Corvette will compare more with an Elise. Again, I'll take the added, HP, weight and safety of a vette over an Elise as well.

How much horsepower does it have?!
And, I'll take the back seat, trunk, and extra safety of a Camaro over an Elise - with the extra HP and weight that comes with it. The Corvette will compare more with an Elise. Again, I'll take the added, HP, weight and safety of a vette over an Elise as well.

Ok, I guess you missed my point. Sorry I am not going into a point by point comparison with you about the Elise Vs........ I was simply stating it can be done (a lighter car that is). With composite parts and a tubular engine craddle you can drop another 3-400 lbs off the Elise. Therefore pushing it well into exotic $$, but then you are talking a 1500-1600 lb car. It has 190 hp for the record.

As a low volume hand built vehicle, using realistic materials (fiberglass aluminum plastic and steel) it is 1900 lbs. My point is basically if GM invested as much capital into making things lighter as they did into advertising (hell probably 1/3 of that) then they'd be able to make them lighter.

My point is basically if GM invested as much capital into making things lighter as they did into advertising (hell probably 1/3 of that) then they'd be able to make them lighter.You're probably right. However, then they wouldn't sell as many cars, wouldn't be the market leader in sales, and would probably be up for sale just like Lotus is.

The bottom line is, what works for the small niche manufacturers does not neccessarily work a global giant like GM.

You're probably right. However, then they wouldn't sell as many cars, wouldn't be the market leader in sales, and would probably be up for sale just like Lotus is.

The bottom line is, what works for the small niche manufacturers does not neccessarily work a global giant like GM.

yep, were both right. :)

If they dumped less into advertising and more into lightweight concepts cars would be lighter, but they would sell fewer.

I hope that they have a V-8 option in the car. some of us just want a V8 camaro and some want 450-500 hp. Well I found out recently a friend bought a boxster and I asked him how much did his insurance go up. he had a 2003 v6 mustang before and he told me it went down. I couldnt believe it. I checked with my website for my car insurance and found that its true. Well I want just a v8 camaro and like in the 67 68 69 when 396's were an option they still sold a ton of 327 2 barrel powerglide camaro's. I have had a 97 Z28 with bolt ons and spray that went low 11's. now that I am 29 and had performance cars and bikes since I was 13 I have gone pass that part and I just want a sporty car that passes well and will not run out of steam passing the gray hairs on I95 in south florida.The stock 285 hp 97 had more than needed to do that. So we will see what happens. I also called and agent and found that some high end cars are alot cheaper than mustangs and such because they are rated safer then american sports or sporty cars.

As far as 16 and other young drivers. if they want to go fast they will do it anyways. look at how they drive with fart can civic's. This problem didnt just start its been that way forever.

Sure these cars have a lot more power but they still are a lot safer. It all compensates. I would go as far to say that a 525 hp 5th gen camaro will be more safe then my 300hp lt1 trans am. Having an independent rear end, tighter more sophisticated suspension, good traction control, and way better breaks seems to be more of a safety concern to me than having lots of hp and torque. My car gets sideways w/ 275 dr and is unbearable to drive in the rain, wobbles and sways on the high way, and hates to break. i still drive it like a champ daily and never crashed into any one. The way i see it, if u drive an f body right now then ur just moving into a way safer car in 2009.
I realize that most enthusiasts like lot’s of HP and Torque and live by the adage “too much is not enough”…however, with some of the recent threads in this forum (as well as other sites) talking about HP in the 400 and up range for a (relatively) inexpensive sports coupe like the Camaro, I find myself more and more often asking when is enough HP actually too much?

I wonder if I am the only one concerned that unless the manufacturers who are producing these vehicles (vehicles with 0-60 in the under 4 second mark and top speeds approaching 200MPH) steps in of their own accord with a plan; then either the federal government or the insurance industry, or both, will.

Let’s face it, the average driver in this country can barely manage to park between the lines and about the only emergency maneuver they can handle is to stand on the breaks and close their eyes…if they had to take a real performance driving course before getting behind the wheel 80% would flunk. And even though most, especially on boards like this, like to think of themselves as great drivers, most ARE average.

Were I GM and producing 500+HP Corvette or a 400+HP Camaro I’d have to be at least a little bit worried about a multi-Billion $ lawsuit when some “adult” is stupid enough to let his 17 year old drive his Z06…now we can all say that it’s the parent’s fault for being that stupid but we all know it happens or the 17 year old will take the car without permission and it’s probably only a matter of time before some crack pot decides to blame GM for his bad judgment or his late son’s stupidity.

And how long are the insurance companies going to stay out of it?

How anxious are they going to be to insure a Z/28 with 400+ HP and is so widely available to the public? It’s one thing to have that kind of HP available in cars at or over the six figure $ mark since relatively few can actually afford them but the Camaro will probably be priced right in with a majority of cars available in 2009 – if insurance companies refuse to insure cars like the Z/28 or the insurance winds up costing more per month that the average payment, how many Z/28’s and their ilk will be sold (or continue to be produced)?

I’m not claiming to have an answer here…just thought I’d put this out for comments/see what some of you are thinking.

The three insurance companies I am familiar with all ask during the quote process whether or not you have taken a "defensive driving course". If you answer "Yes", and can prove it, you receive a rate reduction. The rate reduction is around 5% - 10% annually.

I asked reps from all 3 companies and they all said that high performance courses like Bondurant count as a "defensive driving course". As a driving "enthusiast" I wanted to verify that early on in the process.

I'm not sure how often you have to retake the course. If you have to recertify often, it won't make financial sense. However, if the course is good for several years a 5% reduction in rates on something like a Camaro will pay for a relatively inexpensive course quickly.

As a final note, you may want to check with local car clubs. Some of the driving courses they put on count as "defensive driving courses" for little money. For example the BMW Car Club routinely has autocross sessions, and some of them can be documented and presented to your agent. I'm sure you can find others if you look.

Have fun.

Well granted newer cars should handle better but the speed of the car or power is became alot more of a cost than some of us want. If power ran car sales than all the 67 through 69 would have been optioned as a copo or a baldwin-motion. but alot of 327 cars were sold. Alot of 305 powered pick ups where sold with a 305 even with a 350 as an option in the 70's and 80's. Someone mention only 10% of the buyers are hot rod motivated. I like power but a 5.3 would be fine for me.