Questions about the testing stage

I was browsing around for future car models today and noticed that there are already spy photos/videos of other 2009 model cars that are in the testing
stages...

It seemed to me that this is pretty early to be testing an 09 model. How long on average does it take to test a car before its release? If some of these makers are already testing their 09 models that suggests one of three things. The Camaro is nearing the production stages or the Camaro is not going to be tested nearly as rigorously as other models or these other models are just allowing themselves plenty of time to make adjustments.... which is it?

Also, on another thread someone mentioned that the changes between MY1 and MY2 are usually to make adjustments and fix small issues. If GM gave the engineers ample time to test the car (say, if they were to begin testing the car now for an 09 release) wouldn't that eliminate a lot of these problems?

Since no one else has commented I though I’d jump in.

How long it takes to develop a vehicle depends on a lot of factors including whether it’s a totally new vehicle/100% redesign or whether it’s more of an evolutionary change…tooling, parts availability, supply lines, whether new manpower has to be hired or brought over from other lines and/or re-trained and all the other thousands of details all have to be worked out and all impact the development time…it’s also a matter of how important, as in, how much resources a manufacturer is willing to put toward getting the project launched…you can do a lot in a relatively little amount of time if you are willing to commit the man-hours and dollars necessary to do it.

Testing is pretty much dependent on the manufacturer and what amount of testing they are willing to live with before they pronounce a vehicle ready for the public…certainly, the new processes and components need to be tested more than already established ones. If you are producing a performance car then performance testing takes on more importance but the manufacturer also has to ask itself what it’s willing to spend money to change if performance testing reveals an issue.

Domestic manufacturers have a reputation for “fixing” in second or later model years and for letting the “public” do a lot of the testing…I don’t think it was ever quite as bad as the reputation would have indicated and I think the domestics have improved a great deal in the past couple of decades but I still think it’s a bit of a problem for them.

If I recall, the C6 has had a couple of very public and fairly significant problems since its introduction (if memory serves, there was a problem with the brakes and also with the roof panel’s metal exterior)…so I think it fair to wonder why those problems weren’t discovered and addressed before for car was released to for sale???

Also keep in mind that virtually every manufacturer will make minor model changes from year to year simple to keep the model “fresh” and to keep up with the competition between major redesigns; that does not necessarily mean they are “fixing problems”.

This is not so much a matter of testing or “domestic” vs “import” reliability but in general, I always think that it’s better to wait until the second or third year of a car’s production before buying both to give a chance for problems to surface (if there are any) and to catch the lion’s share of small improvements (which almost always happen in the second and third year of a model run).

Everything that Robert said.

It isn't too early to start testing 2009 models, being that we're well into the 18-24 month range, the typical number of months for starting some road tests of components. Remember, there has to be time to redesign and retest some components to be certain they'll hold up for 100K miles, and Lutz has mandated that alot of parts be tested till they break.

There's also different stages of cars, ranging from mules (cobbled together using current cars) to almost complete prototypes like the 2008 Malibu in the pics recently. Although there's some type of 5th gen Camaro likely running around right now, we're probally quite a few months away from catching any identifiable prototypes on the street.

If I recall, the C6 has had a couple of very public and fairly significant problems since its introduction (if memory serves, there was a problem with the brakes and also with the roof panel’s metal exterior)…so I think it fair to wonder why those problems weren’t discovered and addressed before for car was released to for sale???

I don't know about the brakes but the roof skin problems were caused by a bad batch of adhesive from the supplier (btw, Corvettes are fiberglass, not metal.:) )

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't a lot of the development still taking place "down under"? ;) So I wonder if some of the earliest "spy shots" won't have to come up from Aussie, and it'll be quite awhile before we see anything up here in NA? :shrug:

Domestic manufacturers have a reputation for “fixing” in second or later model years and for letting the “public” do a lot of the testing…I don’t think it was ever quite as bad as the reputation would have indicated and I think the domestics have improved a great deal in the past couple of decades but I still think it’s a bit of a problem for them.

If I recall, the C6 has had a couple of very public and fairly significant problems since its introduction (if memory serves, there was a problem with the brakes and also with the roof panel’s metal exterior)…so I think it fair to wonder why those problems weren’t discovered and addressed before for car was released to for sale???

By Domestic do you mean cars built in the USA, or just DCX, GM, and Ford. I highly doubt that "domestics" purposely put out flawed cars just to have the public find the problems. That leads to heavy recalls and bad press. Any new first year 100% new car will have more flaws or problems then year two, or a 50% new car.

The initial quality on a lot of "Domestics" is a lot higher than a good number of imported cars. Not all imported cars are from the same location.

My question is what kind of problems can we expect from the camaro?

I don't know about the brakes but the roof skin problems were caused by a bad batch of adhesive from the supplier (btw, Corvettes are fiberglass, not metal.:) )
Humm...I thought that the sheet that was (potentially) comming off at speed was metal but you're probably right. :)

By Domestic do you mean cars built in the USA, or just DCX, GM, and Ford. I highly doubt that "domestics" purposely put out flawed cars just to have the public find the problems. That leads to heavy recalls and bad press. Any new first year 100% new car will have more flaws or problems then year two, or a 50% new car.

The initial quality on a lot of "Domestics" is a lot higher than a good number of imported cars. Not all imported cars are from the same location.
By "domestics" yes, I was refering to the domestic nameplates and in the 60's-80's there was a lot or recalls and bad press (although if memory serves the NHTSA wasn't founded until the very early 1970's so the recalls came later).

I'm not really trying to suggest that they put out knowingly flawed cars to let the public find the problems but the level of "testing" the big three went through in the 60's-70's-80's simply wasn't near what almost every manufacturer does today. When you bought a new car from the Big 3 in those time periods you knew you were going to get to know your dealer's service manager pretty well until all the problems were fixed...you just had to assume it was going to happen...it was as much a part of life as assuming Windows95 will crash once or twice a day for no apparent reason. :D

Granted, a lot of the problems were more than just "design" issues that didn't get uncovered early - there were lots of issues and was probably as much a result of having no real competition from anybody doing it better and big enough to show up on the radar of the big three.

Humm...I thought that the sheet that was (potentially) comming off at speed was metal but you're probably right. :)
I've read about this problem more than once, and from different sources ... I think it's more than a "potentially" problem! ;) And yeah, AFAIK it's either a fibreglass roof, or possibly a plastic/"composite".

My question is what kind of problems can we expect from the camaro?

The same level of problems that the 2005 Vette, 2005 Mustang, 2006 Charger 2006 Solstice, 2008 CTS or 2005 STS. I don't expect many problem since the Camaro isn't the first Zeta car being built. Most small bugs show up in the first 3 months. Wait 6-12 months if you are worried about 1st year problems.

Well, I bought a second year Cobalt, and I had multiple problems. First my engine fans did not work. I found out only when the car began to overheat. The sad thing is, this was from the factory apparently. Next, my air conditioning did not work properly, and it is still pretty weak if you ask me. Lastly, my key stoped coming out of the ignition. So, this makes me worry about buying a Camaro right away or even in the first 2 years. But, I guess I have to accept that I just got the worst Cobalt made. Lol

So, when will they be able to spy it out on Nurburgring? :p

So, when will they be able to spy it out on Nurburgring? :p

yes, I would really like to know that too!;)

nothing like a little road trip to take a look.

Let's see? It's late October. Good chance you'll see something undisguised before you see camo.

My question is what kind of problems can we expect from the camaro?


:confused: Um..... about the same kinds of problems you'd expect from any other new car.

I don't understand your question. You seem to be implying that there is some type of problem we should "expect". Being Camaro is still 2 years away, your question would mean that a car maker intentionally puts out a car that is expected to have problems, which is a pretty silly assumption.

I'm pretty sure I misunderstood your question, so please clarify. :)

:confused: Um..... about the same kinds of problems you'd expect from any other new car.

I don't understand your question. You seem to be implying that there is some type of problem we should "expect". Being Camaro is still 2 years away, your question would mean that a car maker intentionally puts out a car that is expected to have problems, which is a pretty silly assumption.

I'm pretty sure I misunderstood your question, so please clarify. :)

Ok, my current ride is a 72. It has plenty of problems, but none of them came with it. I have never bought a new car, and I hope that when the time comes, the camaro will be my first. My question is what kind of problems is usually associated with the release of a new car?

Ok, my current ride is a 72. It has plenty of problems, but none of them came with it. I have never bought a new car, and I hope that when the time comes, the camaro will be my first. My question is what kind of problems is usually associated with the release of a new car?
There are always lots of potential problems with any really new (as in never produced before) vehicle but no one here or at GM for that matter could really answer your question...every car maker today does a lot of testing of various kinds to try and spot problems/things that don't work as planned (and there are alwasy those that happen) but that doesn't mean there will actually be any in the production vehicle.

As I mentioned before, even the C6 has has had a couple of problems (at least one of which is probably the fault of the suppler) so they happen...would I let that alone stop me from buying a car in it's first year of production...maybe...as I said I personally like to wait until the second or third year of a production run but not just because of potential problems so, if I really, really wanted a particular vehicle I'd probably buy one in it's first year.

Bear in mind thay anybody no matter what year of a model run can produce a lemon...they happen and they probably always will but I wouldn't let those sorts of worries run my life (or may my purchasing decision for me) :)

My 2000 Z/28 had a couple of problems early on so even being late in a production run is no guarantee of a problem-free vehicle...even so, I still loved the car and never regreted buying it.

I think the notion that a new type car will be problematic is kinda outdated. Sure there will always be some problems but the days of the trans or rear end dropping on a new car are certainly over. I wouldn't expect any major problems because new cars today are tested and engineered better. And no the domestic car companies do not introduce cars to the public to further their testing. That's laughable at best.
Since we now have an idea that the Camaro will have a 6.2L V8. I think we know the engineering on the engine will be fine. Not to mention lots of other major components will probably be pulled from other GM lines and thus already engineered and tested.

Well, as far as first year problems, its really a very unknowable quantity. As a customer and manufacturer you want 0 recalls/issues at all. However, as cars are designed and made by imperfect people, there is usually going to be something that isn't quite right.

Case in point of cars taking a few years to get right is the Mazda RX-8 (its still not as reliable as a piston motor). The car itself is pretty reliable and well made, with a couple little issues here and there. The motor is a whole different story however. They are very prone to flooding, and not starting. It then needs to be towed to your local dealer and cleared out, restarted etc. I honestly don't see the rotary being a viable motor for the long term at all.

I think the notion that a new type car will be problematic is kinda outdated. Sure there will always be some problems but the days of the trans or rear end dropping on a new car are certainly over. I wouldn't expect any major problems because new cars today are tested and engineered better. And no the domestic car companies do not introduce cars to the public to further their testing. That's laughable at best.
Since we now have an idea that the Camaro will have a 6.2L V8. I think we know the engineering on the engine will be fine. Not to mention lots of other major components will probably be pulled from other GM lines and thus already engineered and tested.

The problems today seem to be with suppliers, who between pressures to cut costs to the point of almost bankrupcy and far shorter development times often don't have the quality of the components that come directly from the manufacturer. They might supply many parts for testing that meet specs, then drop the specs for something cheaper when the car goes into production. The 2000 Cobra had a horsepower deficiency that was directly tracable to contracted parts that weren't up to specs. Ditto with the forementioned Z06 roof skin. Bridgestone nearly brought down Ford via Firestone tires (or Ford by choosing the cheapest tires they could find). One story related in "All Corvettes Are Red" regarding the fuel tank on a preproduction car where the supplier didn't follow specs and clogged the fuel system.

Um....is there a point to this thread? :confused:

I mean - the car's not even out yet, and current owner experience is not very accurate. For example, my '99 TA WS6 has 150k miles on it and has had one problem - an oil leak that was within the last few months. What does that tell you about the new Camaro?? If anything you're a whole lot smarter than me.....:bow:

Um....is there a point to this thread? :confused:

I thought I had a valid question when I opened the thread. I think the appropriate question is whether there is a point to where it is going...

I think some people are getting their panties in a wad about possible problems with the first year of a new model.

I think that "glitches" are almost inevitable on the first year. Should it prevent someone from buying one though? HELL NO!!

People need to lighten the hell up. You've got a 5 year warranty and besides, if a widespread problem does come up, GM would recall the cars to fix the problem if needed.

I think some people are getting their panties in a wad about possible problems with the first year of a new model.

I think that "glitches" are almost inevitable on the first year. Should it prevent someone from buying one though? HELL NO!!

People need to lighten the hell up. You've got a 5 year warranty and besides, if a widespread problem does come up, GM would recall the cars to fix the problem if needed.

I agree.... problems are often times inevitable. Furthermore, they are not only inevitable on the 1st year vehicles but also on later year vehicles as well. Case in point - I currently drive a 2002 Silverado. My truck was the last of this model style which was in since 99, but yet I still have received 3 recall notices and have noticed a couple other "glitches" such as a rattle in the steering column and a hard shift from 1st to 2nd gear. Both of these problems are very common in my style truck regardless whether it was a 1999 or a 2002. My truck obviously did not benefit from 4 years of production. The point is that even if you get a 2nd or 3rd year vehicle, you will still probably have some issues.

Well, as far as first year problems, its really a very unknowable quantity. As a customer and manufacturer you want 0 recalls/issues at all. However, as cars are designed and made by imperfect people, there is usually going to be something that isn't quite right.

Case in point of cars taking a few years to get right is the Mazda RX-8 (its still not as reliable as a piston motor). The car itself is pretty reliable and well made, with a couple little issues here and there. The motor is a whole different story however. They are very prone to flooding, and not starting. It then needs to be towed to your local dealer and cleared out, restarted etc. I honestly don't see the rotary being a viable motor for the long term at all.thats becaus its the same motor is an old rx-7 it was found out by some japanese tuner guys who ripped into the motors 90% of the parts are the same, just new electronics basically. rx-8 = same stuff as rx-7 with the same motor problems. thats why mazda is canning it and bringing back the rx-7.

thats becaus its the same motor is an old rx-7 it was found out by some japanese tuner guys who ripped into the motors 90% of the parts are the same, just new electronics basically. rx-8 = same stuff as rx-7 with the same motor problems. thats why mazda is canning it and bringing back the rx-7.

Very true about there being a high parts commonality between the RX7 and RX8 motors. In fact, if you look at the housing, it's stamped 13B. The 13B was first introduced in 1984 in the GSL-SE RX-7 as the top of the line motor for the FB body style.

The biggest differences internally between the old 13B and the Renisis 13B is that the intake and exhaust ports are in the side housing instead of around the periphiery (sp?) of the rotor housing. Externally most everything is different, intake/exhaust/sensors etc. The oil filter is in the same place it's always been (just harder to get to) and is even the same part number.

All of that is to say, because of the reasons you brought out, they still have problems with the RX* motors, and probably always will.

thats becaus its the same motor is an old rx-7 it was found out by some japanese tuner guys who ripped into the motors 90% of the parts are the same, just new electronics basically. rx-8 = same stuff as rx-7 with the same motor problems. thats why mazda is canning it and bringing back the rx-7.

Your post completely lost me here. :shrug:

You seem to be saying that the RX8 motor is the same motor with problems as the RX7....... so they are solving the problem by ending RX8 production and going back to the RX7...... and that solves the problem???!! :confused:

Knowing that RX7 and RX8 are totally different cars, and saying engine problems can be solved by putting it in a different car.... I'm just certain that's not what you're trying to say. A little bit of clarity please. ;)



But going by your post, the new engines are infact much improved over the old. The Rotary's biggest weakness is it's seals at the tips of the rotors. The new ones are far better than they've ever been, but you aren't likely to get the same longevity as you will with a traditional piston engine.

Of course the "RX" engines are very much the same inside. The 4.6 in a 96 Mustang is very similar internally to a 2006. Again, I don't understand what you're trying to say.

As far as the RX8 being dumped for an RX7, that's completely false. Although Mazda is hinting at bringing back the RX7, as far as I see, the RX8 is perfectly safe..... and even has a redesigned version coming soon.

RX7 is a 2 passenger sports car, RX8 is a sporty coupe. Best comparison is the Camaro and the Corvette. Both have different target markets.

The problems today seem to be with suppliers, who between pressures to cut costs to the point of almost bankrupcy and far shorter development times often don't have the quality of the components that come directly from the manufacturer. They might supply many parts for testing that meet specs, then drop the specs for something cheaper when the car goes into production. The 2000 Cobra had a horsepower deficiency that was directly tracable to contracted parts that weren't up to specs. Ditto with the forementioned Z06 roof skin. Bridgestone nearly brought down Ford via Firestone tires (or Ford by choosing the cheapest tires they could find). One story related in "All Corvettes Are Red" regarding the fuel tank on a preproduction car where the supplier didn't follow specs and clogged the fuel system.


Yea the suppliers are not always up to par but I think the question being posed or just the one I answered is what kind of problems will we expect on the 09 Camaro. And to that I think its safe to say about as many as the C6 had or the G6 or the 07 Silverado. My point was nothing major beacuse there was a time when people held off of buying first year cars because of an expected rash of problems. To me in this day in age thats a myth. But JD Power consideres quality percentages in the upper 90's as great so the odds are in the buyers favor.