The Competition

So, other than the mustang, what will the camaro be up against?

I have heard a mention of a challanger, does any one have any links?

this topic has been discussed to death already. use the search

this topic has been discussed to death already. use the search
Oh, I'm sorry. I am new here and was un-aware that there was one. I see it now, thank you.

Yes, there is a 2008 Challenger on the way:

http://news.caradisiac.com/IMG/jpg/Dodge-Challenger-Concept-12.jpg

The 350Z, G35, BMW coupes... They should all be pushing over 300hp by the time the Camaro is released.

The 350Z, G35, BMW coupes... They should all be pushing over 300hp by the time the Camaro is released.

Competition?:lol: The way I see it, there just isn't any!

The 350Z, G35, BMW coupes... They should all be pushing over 300hp by the time the Camaro is released.


and they would still be looking at a 98 LS1 tail lights.... and that time would be... uh? 2008? so ten years later.. they still looking at a 98 ls1 taillights...

I am loving it... :bow:

well, since this thread went on anyway, i saw pictures i motor trend (i know) of a supercharged 350z making 380hp. i think it was intended for the sema show as a thinly vieled concept

and they would still be looking at a 98 LS1 tail lights.... and that time would be... uh? 2008? so ten years later.. they still looking at a 98 ls1 taillights...I am loving it... :bow:
I really hate to be controversial here, :D but…

I’m not sure what you are basing your boast on but a quick search resulted in the following…

2003 350Z 0-60 in 5.4 sec and ¼ mile in 14.1 @ 101.0 MPH
2002 Camaro Z/28 0-60 in 5.5 sec and, ¼ mile in 14.0 @ 101.3 MPH
2002 Camaro SS 0-60 in 5.3 sec and ¼ mile in 13.7 @ 105.6 MPH

Now, people can argue about a tenth of a second here and a mile-per-hour there but most published performance testing on the 350Z and the Z28/SS show that the 305Z was certainly on par with the Z/28 and SS. Also, on a purely personal note, since I’ve owned a 2000 Z/28 and a 2004 350Z and have autocrossed and hot-lapped both I can attest that the Z gets around both the autocross course and the track faster than my Z/28 did.

By the end of 2008; the next Z will be out and (it is at least rumored) that it will be in the area of 400HP so performance should be on par with the next Camaro - of course, since neither car is in production yet; who knows how they’ll stack up then.

Now, whether the Z or the G35 are aimed at the same market as the Camaro/Mustang/Challenger is a matter of opinion but I say no, they aren’t…I’m sure some buyers will cross-shop but I suspect you would find that the typical Camaro buyer has different demographics than the typical Z or G35 buyer.

Ummm guys the "market" for the Camaro wont be based on 1/4 mile times or HP #s alone......


Marketing has a lil more to it then stuff like that ;)

I really hate to be controversial here, :D but…

I’m not sure what you are basing your boast on but a quick search resulted in the following…

2003 350Z 0-60 in 5.4 sec and ¼ mile in 14.1 @ 101.0 MPH
2002 Camaro Z/28 0-60 in 5.5 sec and, ¼ mile in 14.0 @ 101.3 MPH
2002 Camaro SS 0-60 in 5.3 sec and ¼ mile in 13.7 @ 105.6 MPH



:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: You actually believe the import biased car rags?

i wouldnt say a car like the 350Z is even in the same class.. it's a 2 seater, more akin to competing with the Corvette (but it doesnt even come close IMO)

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: You actually believe the import biased car rags?
Aside from the fact that I've owned AND competed in both cars, the numbes I cited are not from "import biased car rags" (which for you is probably any publication that doesn't say what you want it to say) - show me any reputable third-party testing organization that gives significantly different results.

Aside from the fact that I've owned AND competed in both cars, the numbes I cited are not from "import biased car rags" (which for you is probably any publication that doesn't say what you want it to say) - show me any reputable third-party testing organization that gives significantly different results.
If you've owned both cars how the heck can you compare the 350z to an ls1 camaro. I've seen pretty much stock ls1 camaro's go low 13's stock and yes there is that rare example that will reach the high 12's on the perfect day with a low d/a. Now how can you compare that with a 14 second 350z. Come on how bout this I will find a stock ls1 camaro and you find a stock 350z and we'll race and see who wins............

Hi guys. Im new here. So far, all I've seen are posts about hp, 1/4 mile stats and other testosterone inducing stuff. Im sure the camaro (past and future) does not lack in this dept. but how about handling? One of the reasons why your so called "rice cars" have been beating GM and Ford is that they handle quite well. Nissan Skyline, 350Z and other import cars can go very fast, yet handle very well at corners. Whereas most "muscle cars" can only go fast when going straight. I believe this is an important thing for GM to consider. HP is useless if you cant steer the car. I really want a camaro but I want it to handle well. There are lots of competition that has both power and handling and these I think are the camaro's fiercest competition.

If you've owned both cars how the heck can you compare the 350z to an ls1 camaro. I've seen pretty much stock ls1 camaro's go low 13's stock and yes there is that rare example that will reach the high 12's on the perfect day with a low d/a. Now how can you compare that with a 14 second 350z. Come on how bout this I will find a stock ls1 camaro and you find a stock 350z and we'll race and see who wins............

You're an idiot.

Aside from the fact that you havent driven both cars, you dont know what you're talking about anyway. I would LOVE to see any bone stock LS1 pull a 12 second quarter. That is pure bull****, if someone says that did it, they are lying....and im sure a dumbass like you would probably believe them. Let me guess, you got that off the internet didnt you....

Well here is how it goes in the real world. the 350Z is a fast car, im not saying it will spank an LS1, but it WILL keep up with it.

And dont even get me started on the new BMW coupes. The 300 hp Twin Turbo 335 will run with an LS1 all day, and the new 420 hp V8 M3 that is about to debut will probably whip the **** of out the Z/28(and i mean the new Z/28) Not to mention, BMW's handle WAAAAAAAAAAAY better than Camaro's do...as they should since they are about 20K more.

But all im saying is dont make stupid comments and make yourself sound like a drunk nascar watching hick when you dont even know what you are talking about.

I dont know everything either, but i keep my comments to myself.

Hi guys. Im new here. So far, all I've seen are posts about hp, 1/4 mile stats and other testosterone inducing stuff. Im sure the camaro (past and future) does not lack in this dept. but how about handling? One of the reasons why your so called "rice cars" have been beating GM and Ford is that they handle quite well. Nissan Skyline, 350Z and other import cars can go very fast, yet handle very well at corners. Whereas most "muscle cars" can only go fast when going straight. I believe this is an important thing for GM to consider. HP is useless if you cant steer the car. I really want a camaro but I want it to handle well. There are lots of competition that has both power and handling and these I think are the camaro's fiercest competition.

I agree. The real question is what car can drift the best?

Im only joking guys.... dont start yelling and screaming at me...

the reason why most people compare 1/4 mile times is because that is the camaro's forte. the 350z is more of a gt car and therefore handling is not its biggest attribute. besides, the car cost much more than a z28 when new, and 1/4 mile times become very relevant. now, i am a handling guy myself, but you cant say not to horsepower:D

If you've owned both cars how the heck can you compare the 350z to an ls1 camaro. I've seen pretty much stock ls1 camaro's go low 13's stock and yes there is that rare example that will reach the high 12's on the perfect day with a low d/a. Now how can you compare that with a 14 second 350z. Come on how bout this I will find a stock ls1 camaro and you find a stock 350z and we'll race and see who wins............

I read just about every article ever published on the Z/28 between 1999 and about 2002 and I’ve never seen anyone claim low 13’s for a stock Z/28.

A tany rate, "ow the heck I can compare" them is precisely that I’ve owned both cars and competed in both. Putting aside for the moment that the SCCA puts the F-body and the 350Z in different classes I can tell you form many dozens of Solo2 runs that a 350Z will eat a Z/28’s lunch all day long given the same driver/same driver competence…the Z/28 has more raw power but it’s also heavier and the Z is far more balanced and composed when it’s being thrashed around an autocross course the a Z/28.

Here are details from sources other than what I quoted before…as I said, we can argue tenth’s of a second here and a mile-per-hour all night long but by any objective measure the Z’s performance is on par and in some categories, better than the Z/28. Obviously, the SS’s better HP/TQ gives it a measurable edge (except in the slalom).

I understand some people aren't going to like the Z just because it's not a GM product and those people will never care about the numbers regardless of where they come from.

HP/TQ
350Z 287/274@4,800
Z/28 305/335@4,000
SS 325/350@4,000

Curb Wt
350Z 3225
Z/28 3574
SS 3411

0-60
350Z 5.7
Z/28 No Info
SS 5.2


1/4 Mile
350Z 14.0 @ 101.9
Z/28 14.0 @ 101.3
SS 13.49 @ 107.3

300' Sk Pd 600' Slalom
350Z 0.86 66.4
Z/28 0.83 65.7
SS 0.88 63.0

http://www.supercarx.com/articles/specifications/vehicle_specs.htm

http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/coupe/112_9909_sport_convertibles_comparison/specs_price.html

http://www.gminsidenews.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19594

the reason why most people compare 1/4 mile times is because that is the camaro's forte. the 350z is more of a gt car and therefore handling is not its biggest attribute. besides, the car cost much more than a z28 when new, and 1/4 mile times become very relevant. now, i am a handling guy myself, but you cant say not to horsepower:D

Actually, while you can certainly pay more if you want, the base Z today starts aroung $26K (the most expensive is $35K) and I think it was at around $22/$23K for the 2003 model...my 2000 Z/28 listed for about $26K and I believe they were hitting $30K by 2002. In other words, not that much difference in price if optioned out about the same.

Yes, there is a 2008 Challenger on the way:

http://news.caradisiac.com/IMG/jpg/Dodge-Challenger-Concept-12.jpg

That's what I'm talking about! :thumb:

I honestly think the Nissan Skyline GTR will be the Camaro's/Mustang's biggest rival (if its ever impoted in the US). I know how most guys here do not like import cars but you gotta give credit where its due. That car rocks. American car companies have to start realizing that power alone is not enough. Besides, the Challenger is so much bigger (size and engine), it doesn't look like a sports car anymore.

Hopefully Lear Jet and Boeing will be considered the competition.

My last 2002 Z/28 was $23,500 it ran a 13.33 @ 104 and change with about 2k on the clock It weighed in at a hefty 3355 with a 1/4 tank. It was fully loaded rolling on Eagle GSC's. You can quote mags all day but its not the real world.
350Z's are sweet cars. But I laugh because the only way to defend their higher cost with less performance is to quote magazines. Real cars don't need a bias magazine writer to prove they are worth the bolts they are built with.

My last 2002 Z/28 was $23,500 it ran a 13.33 @ 104 and change with about 2k on the clock It weighed in at a hefty 3355 with a 1/4 tank. It was fully loaded rolling on Eagle GSC's. You can quote mags all day but its not the real world.
350Z's are sweet cars. But I laugh because the only way to defend their higher cost with less performance is to quote magazines. Real cars don't need a bias magazine writer to prove they are worth the bolts they are built with.

Only if you go in a straight line, try cornering. Performance does not only mean power and speed. Handling is also a big part of the equation, and that is why the Z costs more. :)

G.M and Chevrolet need to "WAKE UP" !!!

The competition is not Just with Ford and the Mustang.
As it has been for the last 20 or so years the real competition is with the
IMPORTS!!! Therefore, by competing with the import market, G.M. will leave Ford in the dark.
The 5th Gen needs to compete with these and better exceed.
The 5th Gen will haul ass, but what I want is a well rounded car that runs strong AND will handle itself in the curves too.

We all know the 5th Gen;

Got the Looks :eek:
Got the Power :D

The real question: Will it handle??? :confused: :confused: :confused:

My last 2002 Z/28 was $23,500 it ran a 13.33 @ 104 and change with about 2k on the clock It weighed in at a hefty 3355 with a 1/4 tank. It was fully loaded rolling on Eagle GSC's. You can quote mags all day but its not the real world.

350Z's are sweet cars. But I laugh because the only way to defend their higher cost with less performance is to quote magazines. Real cars don't need a bias magazine writer to prove they are worth the bolts they are built with.
Where did your price come from??? The base MSRP for the 2002 Z/28 coupe was $22,700…when you say the car was “loaded” are you referring to its options or simply that it wasn’t stripped for drag racing? At any rate, I don’t get your point – the Z’s MSRP was right around $22/$23K for the 2003 model so it’s right there with the Z/28 in terms of price which is all I’ve been saying. Some people think that going in a straight line for 1/4 mile is neither the only nor the most important measure of a car’s performance.

I’m sorry but I just don’t buy into the belief system (which, for some reason, tends to get raised only when the publication says something someone here doesn’t agree with) that every automotive publication and every automotive journalist is part of some grand conspiracy to attack and diminish anything domestic.

There is bias in everything and while you may well find bias in what is clearly opinion about a particular vehicle, much of the testing data displayed in publications are from independent testing firms with no particular axe to grind and/or provided by the manufacturer itself (so I guess if GM says the curb weight of the Z28 is X pounds many here wouldn’t believe that either if it shows up in a magazine!). While people may disagree with the specific results they serve as a means to compare vehicles with some degree of consistency and are a significantly better measure than what someone remembers.

All that is missing the point anyway, the point being that the Z can hang with the Z/28 and is in the same price point but that for a number of reasons, I don’t consider them going after the same market and, therefore, aren’t competition for each other.

The bias against GM can be very subtle at times, and sometimes not so subtle, some folks just will never see it, or understand why it exists. :shrug: So they deny it exists. We can try to convince them, but they'll never see it. All I know is for me, Lutz confirmed it, with his press conference about the la slimes. However it runs much deeper than that IMO.:p

The bias against GM can be very subtle at times, and sometimes not so subtle, some folks just will never see it, or understand why it exists. :shrug: So they deny it exists. We can try to convince them, but they'll never see it. All I know is for me, Lutz confirmed it, with his press conference about the la slimes. However it runs much deeper than that IMO.:p

When it comes to the automotive press, there is no question that every writer/reporter/journalist in the world has a “bias” but to assume that all of them have it in for GM (or domestics in general) is just not a position that I’ve ever seen supported by anything other than opinion nor does the assertion make any sense.

What’s more likely to be true; 1)that thousands of journalists and hundreds of publications all hate GM/domestics and are in a conspiracy to purposely misstate testing results/statistics to make GM/domestic products look bad compared to imports or 2)that most publications/journalists try to conduct testing in a fair and consistent manner and honestly report the results? I would say that item 1 is the far more unlikely position and, therefore, demands some very convincing evidence to support it.

Attacking the messenger when one doesn’t like the message is the oldest and least honest method in the book to argue a point. What’s even more absurd is that many who cite “bias” in the automotive press will turn around and cite the exact same sources if they claim that the Camaro SS will beat a Cobra Mustang in the ¼ mile or that the ZO6 will outperform a 911 Turbo…in other words, they don’t have a problem with the “rags” so long as the rags say something they agree with.

Testing results aren't the be all and end all of a comparison of vehicles but to dismiss them out of hand is just not a reasonable position to take.

When it comes to the automotive press, there is no question that every writer/reporter/journalist in the world has a “bias” but to assume that all of them have it in for GM (or domestics in general) is just not a position that I’ve ever seen supported by anything other than opinion nor does the assertion make any sense.

What’s more likely to be true; 1)that thousands of journalists and hundreds of publications all hate GM/domestics and are in a conspiracy to purposely misstate testing results/statistics to make GM/domestic products look bad compared to imports or 2)that most publications/journalists try to conduct testing in a fair and consistent manner and honestly report the results? I would say that item 1 is the far more unlikely position and, therefore, demands some very convincing evidence to support it.

Attacking the messenger when one doesn’t like the message is the oldest and least honest method in the book to argue a point. What’s even more absurd is that many who cite “bias” in the automotive press will turn around and cite the exact same sources if they claim that the Camaro SS will beat a Cobra Mustang in the ¼ mile or that the ZO6 will outperform a 911 Turbo…in other words, they don’t have a problem with the “rags” so long as the rags say something they agree with.

Testing results aren't the be all and end all of a comparison of vehicles but to dismiss them out of hand is just not a reasonable position to take.

Well stated.

I really hate to be controversial here, :D but…

I’m not sure what you are basing your boast on but a quick search resulted in the following…

2003 350Z 0-60 in 5.4 sec and ¼ mile in 14.1 @ 101.0 MPH
2002 Camaro Z/28 0-60 in 5.5 sec and, ¼ mile in 14.0 @ 101.3 MPH
2002 Camaro SS 0-60 in 5.3 sec and ¼ mile in 13.7 @ 105.6 MPH



Those LS1 times seem more like LT1 times to me. 13.3 is about right for the LS1. I have several friends with LS1's and they all ran mid to low 13's stock.

pony cars are pony cars and the traditional competition will always be the Mustang, but we all know that there are a LOT of cars out there competing with the mighty Camaro. frankly, i don't care what other cars are out there in it's market segment, cuz the only one i'm buying is CAMARO! :D

and as far as the 4th gen LS1s are concerned... i am a drag strip junkie and i much rather look at my experience than what anyone else "tells" me. you know what they say, believe some of what you see and none of what you hear...

with that said, a stock auto with 2.73 gears (standard) will run high 13's all day long. i have seen many at our local drag strip do the same and my 2002 formula was a testament to that (13.8-13.9 consistently). it wasn't a ringer car and dyno'd 290 HP to the rear wheels in stock form. it was the slowest stock 4th gen i've owned.

a stock auto with 3.23 gears (optional) will run mid 13's all day long. i have seen many at our local drag strip do the same and my husband's old 99 Z28 was a testament to that (13.4-13.5 consistently). i don't think he ever dyno'd that car tho.

there also isn't any tangible difference in running times from base model V8's to high-end V8's no matter what anyone tells you. an SS is not faster than a Z stock for stock. i have NEVER seen that happen. maybe a tenth, but that's so insignificant it could be driver related.

my 2002 firehawk with 3.42's and a six-speed ran a best of 13.3 in stock form. and i have seen many other stock six-speeds run low 13's with decent driving. i have even seen some hit high 12's, but that is with one of those crazy bastards behind the wheel that really knows how to drive. that's not as common, but it's not imposible either. most six-speeds will range from low-to-mid 13's depending on the driver.

however, i have NEVER NEVER NEVER seen a stock LS1 fbody run a 14 second pass (unless the tires went up in smoke or someone missed a gear), but on any run where the car hooked you were guaranteed a 13 second pass.

i have been drag racing at the local tracks since i was 19 (1998) and that was also the time when LS1's ruled the tracks. i have seen many races and run many myself and if you can show me a 4th gen that runs 14's on a good run (not a botched one), i'll give you $100.

don't forget, GM is also famous for underrating their horsepower. it is a well-known fact that all those LS1's that were rated at 305, 320, etc were dynoing that and more to the rear wheels instead of to the flywheel. so it's not surprising to me that the cars are running what they do. i think most magazines just punch a formula into a computer to come up with their 1/4 mile times. but that's just a guess, cuz if they were driving the cars i know they would have a different outcome.

PS i have also run 2 350Z's on the street (i know, bad girl) but they were revving to me and asking for it. and i beat both by about 2-3 car lengths in my Hawk which is stock except for a cutout.

out in the real world it's put up or shut up. and for me that is the best way to determine who's the top dog and who's all bark and no bite :D and i'm confident the new Camaro will not merely hold its own, but blow the competition's doors off like it always has ;)

I honestly think the Nissan Skyline GTR will be the Camaro's/Mustang's biggest rival (if its ever impoted in the US). I know how most guys here do not like import cars but you gotta give credit where its due. That car rocks. American car companies have to start realizing that power alone is not enough. Besides, the Challenger is so much bigger (size and engine), it doesn't look like a sports car anymore.
I have to disagree; whether Nissan will hit the mark or not, the GT-R it aimed at an entirely different and more affluent audience than the Camaro and I would suggest that there will be very, very little cross-shopping between the Camaro and the GT-R.

I would suggest that those who routinely buy/would buy from Chevrolet, Dodge and Ford cars of similar configuration/price point are the real competition for the Camaro (at least if we are talking about who will buy the car)…performance measurements are one thing and you can bring many vehicles into the picture but once you are beyond raw performance it’s another matter.

Some individuals will, of course, but most of those who will buy a GT-R, Infiniti, Porsche, Mercedes, BMW, Acura or Lexus are probably not going to consider a Camaro, Mustang, Challenger or Charger when they are shopping.

SunsetHawkSelena;

Sorry, you can claim personal experience all you want and that along with $3.50 will get you a coffee at Starbucks.

That aside, the 2, 3, 4, 5 or 6 tenths (depending on who you believe) of a second 1/4 time differences being argued about here are not the holy grail of automotive performance for many people - not everybody who buys a car is interested only in stop light to stop light or 1/4 mile runs.

4th gen's routinely beat out many cars in SCCA T2 roadracing, WITH an air restrictor.

Unless they really mess something up with the 5th gen, raw laptimes around a roadcourse will probably be outstanding.

The "feedback and feel" though? who knows.

4th gen's routinely beat out many cars in SCCA T2 roadracing, WITH an air restrictor.

Unless they really mess something up with the 5th gen, raw laptimes around a roadcourse will probably be outstanding.

The "feedback and feel" though? who knows.
True but I don't think anybody is questioing that an F-body can be fast. However, when you start talking about SCCA club racing, even the T2 group, you are dealing with modifications from stock which is a bit off the point of the thread or what has been discussed up to this point. :)

Where did your price come from??? The base MSRP for the 2002 Z/28 coupe was $22,700…when you say the car was “loaded” are you referring to its options or simply that it wasn’t stripped for drag racing? At any rate, I don’t get your point – the Z’s MSRP was right around $22/$23K for the 2003 model so it’s right there with the Z/28 in terms of price which is all I’ve been saying. Some people think that going in a straight line for 1/4 mile is neither the only nor the most important measure of a car’s performance.

I’m sorry but I just don’t buy into the belief system (which, for some reason, tends to get raised only when the publication says something someone here doesn’t agree with) that every automotive publication and every automotive journalist is part of some grand conspiracy to attack and diminish anything domestic.

There is bias in everything and while you may well find bias in what is clearly opinion about a particular vehicle, much of the testing data displayed in publications are from independent testing firms with no particular axe to grind and/or provided by the manufacturer itself (so I guess if GM says the curb weight of the Z28 is X pounds many here wouldn’t believe that either if it shows up in a magazine!). While people may disagree with the specific results they serve as a means to compare vehicles with some degree of consistency and are a significantly better measure than what someone remembers.

All that is missing the point anyway, the point being that the Z can hang with the Z/28 and is in the same price point but that for a number of reasons, I don’t consider them going after the same market and, therefore, aren’t competition for each other.

Well again my point is leave the magazines on the shelf which includes the MSRP. Remember that is a suggested price. Also too when I walked into a Chevy dealer in early 2002 and ordered a Z28 you get some incentives and with a little talking, prior Chevy owner and customer of that dealer you can get the price down. Not to mention GM was giving out 0% financing at that time too. So is my experience the norm, maybe or maybe not.

Let me also say the reason we always compare 1/4 times and 0-60 or top speed is because its easy to benchmark those figures. Even you with the magazine in hand can bench race the 350Z vs. F430 if you want. But to compare handling you really need to be at the same track. I won't even specify at the same day or time.

So I'm sorry again that the 350Z's apparent strong point (handling) isn't very well documented or comparable. And maybe your looking in the wrong place for respect for the car you like but this is a Camaro site. To me the 350Z is a great car but I've driven them and they are not a Camaro and thats what we like here. It seems to be a higher priced car with a bit less performance straight line or whatever. So maybe you would have better luck defending them on a Nissan site. :cool:

Duplicated; sorry!

Well again my point is leave the magazines on the shelf which includes the MSRP. Remember that is a suggested price. Also too when I walked into a Chevy dealer in early 2002 and ordered a Z28 you get some incentives and with a little talking, prior Chevy owner and customer of that dealer you can get the price down. Not to mention GM was giving out 0% financing at that time too. So is my experience the norm, maybe or maybe not.
”Incentives” come and go and trying to compare the purchase price of a new vehicle based on anything other than MSRP is a fool’s errand. Do you think a Chevy dealer is the only kind of dealer that offers a “deal” on the cars the dealership sells? For that matter, do you really want to crow about “incentives” offered on a Camaro to get them to sell?

MSRP is not a matter of "magazines"; it’s a matter of the price stated by the manufacturer, knowledge of which is fully and equally available to anybody who wants to know and is the only consistent basis on which to compare relative prices of vehicles. As to your assertion that the Z is overpriced, even in 2007, you can buy a 350Z for the same or less as a similarly equipped Z/28 sold for five years ago which means the assertion about the Z being higher priced is simply wrong. Yes, you can pay quite a lot of money for a 350Z if you want to go crazy but no more so than you could spend on a Z/28 or SS in 2002 if you wanted go just as crazy.

Let me also say the reason we always compare 1/4 times and 0-60 or top speed is because its easy to benchmark those figures.
So long as the "figures" support your opinion, apparently.

Even you with the magazine in hand can bench race the 350Z vs. F430 if you want. But to compare handling you really need to be at the same track. I won't even specify at the same day or time.

So I'm sorry again that the 350Z's apparent strong point (handling) isn't very well documented or comparable. And maybe your looking in the wrong place for respect for the car you like but this is a Camaro site. To me the 350Z is a great car but I've driven them and they are not a Camaro and thats what we like here. It seems to be a higher priced car with a bit less performance straight line or whatever. So maybe you would have better luck defending them on a Nissan site.
The 350’s handling is well documented – you just don’t want to admit it since it challenges your opinion about it. As I said in earlier posts in this thread, I have owned and competed in both a 2000 Z/28 and a 2004 350Z in dozens of Solo2 events and hotlaps around our superspeedway – based on my own experience and my own course/lap times my 350Z (stock) is faster on both the autocross course and the speedway than my Z/28 was (also stock) and, even though you don’t like the sources, every published source supports that admittedly personal experience.

I understand this is a Camaro/GM site and I understand the desire to defend the Camaro but some of you are “defending” it when no assault has been launched against it! All that’s been said is that the 350Z is, on a price and performance basis, on par with the Z/28 which is a true statement even though we can argue about specific ¼ mile times, and 0-60 and skid pad, etc, etc. forever.

I’ve also said, several times now, that I don’t consider the 350Z to be market competition with the Camaro which was the original question in the thread…they are different vehicles with quite different configurations and aimed at a different market segment…some crossover, yes but not a direct competitor any more than the Z4/S2000/or Boxster is direct competition for the Camaro.

Finally, continuing to wine about and deride all magazines as being wrong and biased doesn’t make the assertion any more valid.

my thoughts are that competition of a car is what other cars people will consider when looking at a car. for that camaro it will be the mustang and the challenger. i dont think the 350z would fit here would some people consider it yes, will most probly not.

i have always thought people buying muscel cars were more concerend about going fast in a strait line then around a track . but what do i know becuase i think comparing a camaro to a 350z stupid to.

Im surprised no one has brought up the evo that is going to be right there with the new Camaro

Im surprised no one has brought up the evo that is going to be right there with the new Camaro
The Evo is a fairly impressive vehicle but certianly a very different car in many respects than the Camaro...I guess it all depends on what one means by "competition". :)

True but the evo X that is coming out the same time the camaro will be out and will also have over 300 HP.

You will be looking at two low 13 sec cars
just one will handle a lot better then the other!

Also, on a purely personal note, since I’ve owned a 2000 Z/28 and a 2004 350Z and have autocrossed and hot-lapped both I can attest that the Z gets around both the autocross course and the track faster than my Z/28 did.

Sorry, you can claim personal experience all you want and that along with $3.50 will get you a coffee at Starbucks.

:rolleyes:

SunsetHawkSelena;

Sorry, you can claim personal experience all you want and that along with $3.50 will get you a coffee at Starbucks.

That aside, the 2, 3, 4, 5 or 6 tenths (depending on who you believe) of a second 1/4 time differences being argued about here are not the holy grail of automotive performance for many people - not everybody who buys a car is interested only in stop light to stop light or 1/4 mile runs.neither is autocrossing cones in a parking lot where smaller, nimble shopping carts win;) put these cars on a real race course and comapire. to the nurburgring!!!:D

neither is autocrossing cones in a parking lot where smaller, nimble shopping carts win;) put these cars on a real race course and comapire. to the nurburgring

Even if the Z/28 had ever been tested at is anybody here going to believe such figures from the “biased automotive rags”? It doesn’t matter as the first GM testing (by GM itself) at the Ring was with the Cadillac CTS-V and C6 ZO6; not ever with a Camaro and for Nissan testing the 350Z, as far as I know, it wasn't run at Nürburgring although the 350Z GT-S has been (but only in the last week or so meaning no results are available yet as far as I've seen).

Poke fun at autocrossing all you want (I didn't know people here consider ZO6s, 911s and M3s/M4s and such to be "shopping carts"); people who have actually done it and learned how to do it well understand it; those who haven’t done it or haven’t learned how to do it well never will. Perhaps you should spend some time in the autocrss/road racing forum here and tell those guys that autocrossing isn't "real" racing or that they are running "shopping carts".

The Mitsubishi Evo is a 4-dr w/c is a lot smaller and nimble than the Camaro. Its market I think is more of the younger guys whereas the Camaro is more on middle aged guys (there are exceptions of course). The Evo's closest rival is the Subaru Impreza STi/WRX. By the time the Camaro launches, the new Mustang will be on its way....and who know's what will happen....as for the Challenger...I just dont think they're on the same category.

my thoughts are that competition of a car is what other cars people will consider when looking at a car. for that camaro it will be the mustang and the challenger. i dont think the 350z would fit here would some people consider it yes, will most probly not.

i have always thought people buying muscel cars were more concerend about going fast in a strait line then around a track . but what do i know becuase i think comparing a camaro to a 350z stupid to.
Well, it is obviously apparent why you dont work on the marketing team over at GM.

Hi guys. Im new here. So far, all I've seen are posts about hp, 1/4 mile stats and other testosterone inducing stuff. Im sure the camaro (past and future) does not lack in this dept. but how about handling? One of the reasons why your so called "rice cars" have been beating GM and Ford is that they handle quite well. Nissan Skyline, 350Z and other import cars can go very fast, yet handle very well at corners. Whereas most "muscle cars" can only go fast when going straight. I believe this is an important thing for GM to consider. HP is useless if you cant steer the car. I really want a camaro but I want it to handle well. There are lots of competition that has both power and handling and these I think are the camaro's fiercest competition. I don't plain on going around to many corners at high speeds in my camaro, which is why Steering just is not important. Leave the road races to the imports.

Well, it is obviously apparent why you dont work on the marketing team over at GM.

why because i dont find the 350z in the same market as a camaro?
okay lets see v6 two seater sports car v8 4seat muscle car? why shouldn’t gm focus the camaro against the 350z. well you could go get a corvette, a sky reline, hell a g6 gtp would probably be better up against it.

why take a muscle car like the camaro in a market like the 350z? it should focus on the mustang and challenger most people who are gona buy a camaro are gona look at mustangs challengers and other cars comparable to that i dont think the 350z fits in there and gm has other cars to fill that void

and what gets me even more is that people on here want the camaro to be an every thing car. meaning it has to be the ultimate luxury car heated seats nav system hud dual climate control all out, it also has to have the muscle to beat a gt500 and every thing else on the road, and it has to be able to out handle every car like the 350z . gm makes many different cars for many different purposes by a car based on your needs not the name. the camaro is a muscle car and traditional muscle cars are go fast in a strait line cars. you want a good handle go buy a sports car.

"Leave the road races to the imports."

Tell that to G.M. !!! How dare they build a Corvette Z06 to handle so well,
and for that matter, What about the 1969 Camaro Z28!!!

and nashville here i find you comparing a 350z to a z28 when you said it wasnt fair to compare cars like that in prior threads and cried foul when all i did was change displacment in half ton trucks.

why because i dont find the 350z in the same market as a camaro?
okay lets see v6 two seater sports car v8 4seat muscle car? why shouldn’t gm focus the camaro against the 350z. well you could go get a corvette, a sky reline, hell a g6 gtp would probably be better up against it.

why take a muscle car like the camaro in a market like the 350z? it should focus on the mustang and challenger most people who are gona buy a camaro are gona look at mustangs challengers and other cars comparable to that i dont think the 350z fits in there and gm has other cars to fill that void

and what gets me even more is that people on here want the camaro to be an every thing car. meaning it has to be the ultimate luxury car heated seats nav system hud dual climate control all out, it also has to have the muscle to beat a gt500 and every thing else on the road, and it has to be able to out handle every car like the 350z . gm makes many different cars for many different purposes by a car based on your needs not the name. the camaro is a muscle car and traditional muscle cars are go fast in a strait line cars. you want a good handle go buy a sports car.


You must be a market research analyst, or is that all based on your own experience? I have personally known two people who have sold their late 90's z/28's for 350z's. Just because the Z has a V-6 and a comparable Camaro has a V-8 doesn't mean they are not in the same market segment. It is about who will buy the cars not just how comparable they are side by side.

As for your other argument concerning people wanting the camaro to be an "everything car", is there any reason the Camaro can not have interior amenities like heated seats, a nav system, HUD, dual climate control as well as puting down some kick ass numbers? Would that in some way diminish the effect of a muscle car?

Personally, I am hoping and praying it comes with those options because that is exactly what I want on a Camaro with an MP3 capable stereo.

Look, speaking as a member of the younger generation, I love the look of the camaro. I think most imports look like ****, but the camaro cant handle well enough, forget it! I dont think its unreasonable for GM to make this car capable of some drifting

The biggest competition is the price of gas ;) There are more practical people out there than enthusiasts. Thats why there are more V6s sold than V8s. And a lot more corollas than mustangs ;)

The biggest competition is the price of gas ;) There are more practical people out there than enthusiasts. Thats why there are more V6s sold than V8s. And a lot more corollas than mustangs ;)

So true. That is the primary reason I held off on buying a GTO.... I was hopeful that the GTO would come with AFM in the next few years. Then they said they were going to produce the Camaro. My plans changed real fast!

”Incentives” come and go and trying to compare the purchase price of a new vehicle based on anything other than MSRP is a fool’s errand. Do you think a Chevy dealer is the only kind of dealer that offers a “deal” on the cars the dealership sells? For that matter, do you really want to crow about “incentives” offered on a Camaro to get them to sell?

MSRP is not a matter of "magazines"; it’s a matter of the price stated by the manufacturer, knowledge of which is fully and equally available to anybody who wants to know and is the only consistent basis on which to compare relative prices of vehicles. As to your assertion that the Z is overpriced, even in 2007, you can buy a 350Z for the same or less as a similarly equipped Z/28 sold for five years ago which means the assertion about the Z being higher priced is simply wrong. Yes, you can pay quite a lot of money for a 350Z if you want to go crazy but no more so than you could spend on a Z/28 or SS in 2002 if you wanted go just as crazy.


So long as the "figures" support your opinion, apparently.

I think you're the one quoting figures to support your opinon. When you first got into this thread with the line "I hate to be controversal..." You threw out some magazine data from your quick search that happened to put the 350Z very close in straight line performance with a Z28 and SS. Which seemed a bit slow even for your beloved 350Z. When people here started to question your findings you produced more info from this site;

http://www.supercarx.com/articles/sp...icle_specs.htm

You kindly placed the figures of this site on Cz28.com as if to defend your postiton that the 350Z and the Z28 and the SS were close in performance.
(BTW, there was no LS1 Z28 test so where did the 14.0 quarter mile come from?)
You have also stated several times that you've owned and driven both cars and that you race. Since when is a 13.49 @107 for the SS and a 14.0 @101 for the Z considdered close? Thats a half second advantage in just 1320 ft. Thats called being in the rearview mirror, or about 75 ft @100mph for math geeks. It's close for those who don't race but I don't think you're allowed that excuse. And don't tell me the Z28 is so much slower than the SS I think you know the two are very close in performance and speed (straight line) after all you had one.
BTW you also stated that you've read every article written about Camaro's from 1999 to 2002 and never heard of a low 13 sec 1/4 mile. Well I think GM High Tech has a 99 Z28 and 01 SS you may want to review.

Just to clear up the price I paid and you cried foul at stating that incentives come and go. My car was indeed loaded with leather, t-tops, chrome wheels. So about the sticker I'm sure your car had but I won't get upset that Chevy sold it to me for thousands less.
Everyone knows GM was pushing car sales in 2002 so if you walk in with a huge rebate the MSRP doesn't mean much.

However let me play your game. You also stated in a past reply that the cost of the Z28 and the 350Z were very close citing the Z28's base cost was $22,700. You mention that the 2003 350Z was $22/23k. Now just clicking on the internet site you provided, Edmunds. It seems the 350Z base was $26,370 in 2003. But again thats just MSRP and not reflective of what people pay right... The $3670 is about as close in price as the two are on the 1/4 mile except reversed.

The 350’s handling is well documented – you just don’t want to admit it since it challenges your opinion about it. As I said in earlier posts in this thread, I have owned and competed in both a 2000 Z/28 and a 2004 350Z in dozens of Solo2 events and hotlaps around our superspeedway – based on my own experience and my own course/lap times my 350Z (stock) is faster on both the autocross course and the speedway than my Z/28 was (also stock) and, even though you don’t like the sources, every published source supports that admittedly personal experience.

Well I can't say I've raced both cars and so if you say the 350Z is faster than the Z28 on the autocross and superspeedway and all sources support you I won't go looking because that's not my style. Unless you reveal your sources and I can find errors in them as seen above.

I understand this is a Camaro/GM site and I understand the desire to defend the Camaro but some of you are “defending” it when no assault has been launched against it! All that’s been said is that the 350Z is, on a price and performance basis, on par with the Z/28 which is a true statement even though we can argue about specific ¼ mile times, and 0-60 and skid pad, etc, etc. forever.

I’ve also said, several times now, that I don’t consider the 350Z to be market competition with the Camaro which was the original question in the thread…they are different vehicles with quite different configurations and aimed at a different market segment…some crossover, yes but not a direct competitor any more than the Z4/S2000/or Boxster is direct competition for the Camaro.

Finally, continuing to wine about and deride all magazines as being wrong and biased doesn’t make the assertion any more valid.

I must say that from reading all your replies it's quite evident that you're here to defend the 350Z more than we are to defend the Camaro. The Camaro doesn't need a defense it's out of production from lack of sales. The last one was made 4 years ago. It was what it was; a sport coupe with a V8, optional manual trans, RWD, some unique American style and history at an affordable price. It wasn't the fastest thing on 4 wheels, heck it wasn't even the fastest car made by Chevy. Now its going to return and the question is popped what will be the competition and someone mentiones the 350Z and then here you roll in to defend the honor using some internet/magazine tests and personal experiences. Yet, when some of us find holes in your figures and your methods or offer our own figures and experiences all of a sudden we're GM biased and guilty of Camaro defense.

Your obviosuly very proud of your car and its abilities, you have it listed proudly in your sig. along with future car purchases. There is no doubt that the 350Z is a hell of a car. Look no further for proof than the local Nissan dealer, they are still here and selling well.
You always seem to end your thoughts with "The 350Z is not really competition for the new Camaro." Then why spend so much time defending it against cars 4 years old or older not even in production? If you feel that the 350Z is comparable with the tired old Camaro then that's an honor for the our old Detroit iron. I'll take it!

Even if the Z/28 had ever been tested at is anybody here going to believe such figures from the “biased automotive rags”? It doesn’t matter as the first GM testing (by GM itself) at the Ring was with the Cadillac CTS-V and C6 ZO6; not ever with a Camaro and for Nissan testing the 350Z, as far as I know, it wasn't run at Nürburgring although the 350Z GT-S has been (but only in the last week or so meaning no results are available yet as far as I've seen).

Poke fun at autocrossing all you want (I didn't know people here consider ZO6s, 911s and M3s/M4s and such to be "shopping carts"); people who have actually done it and learned how to do it well understand it; those who haven’t done it or haven’t learned how to do it well never will. Perhaps you should spend some time in the autocrss/road racing forum here and tell those guys that autocrossing isn't "real" racing or that they are running "shopping carts".hey everyone has their style. but all i was saying is autocrossing is short and technical. you cant truly judge a car on such a sharp low speed course. i prefer a full track myself or drag. but whatev.

i got something for you. im sure you all have heard of gran turismo 4 for ps2. well before anyone barks. i will say this. the game is the closest to real life simulation of a car racing around the track as it gets so far. provided you take the steps to make it realistic. cars in the game on the nurburgring for eg are within a second to real life!. you need the N2 simulation radials and take all tcs and asm off 100%.

i tested 2 cars in the game on 3 different styles of real courses in the world. the 2003 350Z vs the 2000 camaro SS in the game. both 100% stock, no oil change, sim tires, and all assistance off. all the races were done with multiple warmups and practice. and the lap times were taken as best of, with the judgement of a fully clean lap, no off courses and crashing etc.

first track

tsukuba raceway..... i chose it for the close to autocross style, its a japanese course short and technical. used alot on the program best motoring. at 1.28 miles its small.

350 Z = 1.08:232
Camaro = 1.08:885

second track

laguna seca..... local NA track, its a medium sized course with plenty od short and long straights with lots of medium speed corners. at 2.23 miles its a medium to large size track.

350 Z = 1.47:059
Camaro = 1.47:834

third track

suzuka raceway east course.... chosen for its shorter length and transitions from medium speed corners from left to right. this track favours overall stability and transition in the car. length is 1.39 miles

350 Z = 1.02:940
Camaro = 1.03:063


as you can see the cars are almost identical on various types of road tracks. wile you may think this is nerdy. if anyone has a source of real lap times of these stock cars on those tracks, it would be neat to compare. i was curious to see how similar or different these cars handle and perform. and i was suprised. i thought on a larger course the camaro would have won, but its dead heat all the way. one thing i noticed in game was the 350z was easier to drive. more neutral. less overpowering oversteer. seemed tamed compaired to the camaro which was a sliding fun ride:cool:

so all in all my opinion is this. the cars in a performance standpoint are so similar one is neither better or worse then the other. they are both respectable track cars IMO.

Hey everyone, Im kinda new here, but I was just reading this thread. A lot of people like to argue numbers, and they ARE important and all, but that is not the sole reason for why I am personally going to buy the 2009 camaro. I am looking mostly at the substance or essence of the camaro. Part of that essence comes down to its engine, the V8. It will take you as fast as you will ever need or want to go, it has a sound that can not be compared to by any asian import, and above everything else...its...just...there. The 1967 Camaro was about being a tight performer, but like the Corvette and Mustang, the Camaro has a whole new meaning now. They have cults, they have hearts, people buy them for just being what they are if for nothing else. I read an article that said that a lot of people bought the new Mustang without even taking it for a test drive. That says a lot for what the real competition is. Now, where many people are lusting over it for performance reasons, I can garuntee that most buyers are buying it simply because it is what it is. You can make any car go fast from four cylinder to V12 given the right amount of tweaks...but a souped up 1987 Honda Civic is not going dazzle most people when it is sitting next to a bone-stock 2009 Camaro. Now given, the 320 Z has reached the point where people buy it for what it is, but not so with the Evo or WRX. People buy those two because they want to go autocrossing or they want to impress a couple of riceboys. With a Camaro or a Z, you can roll through town and catch glances from EVERYONE. The Evo and WRX look like point A to point B cars with giant wing and air dam lodged on to them. They arent so much about passion like the Camaro, the Z, the Vette, the Challenger, or the Mustang are. But with that given, I still dont think the Z is going to be thrown into the Camaro comparison mix. The real competition is going to be pony cars. The reason for this is because we are the only ones on earth that can make them. They will have a 2+2 seating method. They will all have long hoods with a short rear deck, all will be available with V8 engines with rear wheel drive. Period. And yeah, the magazines will be experimental by matching the Camaro against foreign products, but thats not going to waiver the buyers from buying the pony-cars.
On another note, if you do want to compare performance, the Camaro should be a stunner. I take that back, it WILL be a stunner. (A. it has a newly updated corvette engine that will most like perform just as good as the current GTO if not better (and the GTO certainly rocks the current 350Z) (B. It will based on a cutting edge chassis that will be used by some of GMs top of the line products (C. It will have completely independent suspension, so handling will be top notch (oh yes, the GTO is noted for having superb handling, and Im sure the Camaro will be even more updated than the Goat). Tack on a DOD program and youve got yourself the perfect automobile with two extra seats to spare.:D

You must be a market research analyst, or is that all based on your own experience? I have personally known two people who have sold their late 90's z/28's for 350z's. Just because the Z has a V-6 and a comparable Camaro has a V-8 doesn't mean they are not in the same market segment. It is about who will buy the cars not just how comparable they are side by side.

As for your other argument concerning people wanting the camaro to be an "everything car", is there any reason the Camaro can not have interior amenities like heated seats, a nav system, HUD, dual climate control as well as puting down some kick ass numbers? Would that in some way diminish the effect of a muscle car?

Personally, I am hoping and praying it comes with those options because that is exactly what I want on a Camaro with an MP3 capable stereo.
so you know 2 people that moved from camarosto 350z's does that mean every one going to buy a camaro is gona buy a 350z? and im not taking a side by side comparison or one has a v8 and one has a v6 im mearly saying what other cars people are going to look at when they buy a camaro and when you look at that its most likly gona be something along the same likes a 350z shares nothing in common with a camaro. will some people look at a 350z when looking a camaro absolutly will mass amounts of people probly not. and for you freinds could it be said a) that maybe they relised the bought the wrong car it wasnt what they were looking for? b) mabe they out grew muscel cars and wanted a sports car. just becuase someone trade in a car and buys a diffrent one doesnt mean its competition. becuase i trade in my blazer and by a camaro does that make it competition?


and for your argument does it deminish the fact its a muscel car? no but i think it takes a little away from the car. whats the point of chevy offering all the diffrent makes and models they offer if there all gona be the same y not just make one make and modle? it soulds like to me you want to buy the name not the car. i think this is why people get so disapointed when they buy a car they dont really look at what there buying the car for and how there gona use it nor what the car was intended for.

Hey jaymac332,

That's a great speech!!!
You should be in sales :)

We know everyone here on this board can't wait for the 5th Gen
to come out, and we all will buy one. But that is not enough!
G.M. has to broaden it's sales. They have to get more people than the current followers to buy one! If that was the case the Camaro sales would have never fallen off. The new Camaro will heve to be diverse, to appeal to more than the 1320 buyers and the "Look at Me" crowd.

I think G.M. has their reputation (and Future) on the line here.
I've owned many G.M.'s in the past and currently own a Toyota and a
Infinity. G.M. must come up to the build quality of these "rice burners"
if it wants to stay in business.

and nashville here i find you comparing a 350z to a z28 when you said it wasnt fair to compare cars like that in prior threads and cried foul when all i did was change displacment in half ton trucks.

If you'll read the whole thread you would see that I didn't start the comparison; I responded to a ridiculous, albeit predictable, out of hand dismissal of the 350Z (and some others) as not being even close, from a performance or price standpoint, to any LS1 Camaro then I also responded to the inevitable, and also predictable, mantra that you can’t believe anything in the automotive press because they are all part of some grand conspiracy to “get GM”.

You would also see, if you had read the thread that I’ve been very consistent in saying that the 350Z is not a market competitor for the Camaro.

Not that it has anything to do with this thread but yes, I still say pretending that the only “fair” comparison of trucks is the one where GM wins is laughable…you and I both know that if the Titan had a 6L and the Chevy only had the 5.3 you would be crying foul to compare the two. ;)

Wow, this thread has gone from only kinda funny to completely ridiculous.

GT4 is a competent enough car game but it is nowhere near a real life simulation. I'm wondering how the Camaro SS could be modeled correctly if they list maximum torque at something like 250ftlbs. Maybe it is just a conversion error in the car description, but maybe not. I remember reviews of GT3 that showed lap times in the game versus real life lap times on Laguna Seca, but it was not like it was precise by any stretch of the imagination.

The 2002 Z28 is significantly faster than a 350Z in a straight line. Stock for stock and on stock rubber the 350Z might be navigating through turns faster than a Z28 on the Eagle GSCs. I don't know if it would be any faster than an SS though the turns though. It might have the advantage on the smaller courses, but I doubt it would have much real advantage on a road course.

FWIW MM&FF tested the Z28 and SS and got 12.9 and 12.8s in the quarter mile respectively.

I disagree that the 350Z is not a competitor to the Camaro, but agree that the 350Z is good competition.

If you'll read the whole thread you would see that I didn't start the comparison; I responded to a ridiculous, albeit predictable, out of hand dismissal of the 350Z (and some others) as not being even close, from a performance or price standpoint, to any LS1 Camaro then I also responded to the inevitable, and also predictable, mantra that you can’t believe anything in the automotive press because they are all part of some grand conspiracy to “get GM”.

You would also see, if you had read the thread that I’ve been very consistent in saying that the 350Z is not a market competitor for the Camaro.

Not that it has anything to do with this thread but yes, I still say pretending that the only “fair” comparison of trucks is the one where GM wins is laughable…you and I both know that if the Titan had a 6L and the Chevy only had the 5.3 you would be crying foul to compare the two. ;)


no i wouldnt cry foul if the chevy only had the 5.3 i would bow my head and submit that the titan beat me:)

and yes you have said a few times there they 350z and z28 should not be compared. i just cant belive you would fall into comparing the 350z to the z28. if you noticed i have only said they should be compared to each other and justified why. i never stated the z/28 was better then the 350z nore the 350z better then the z/28 there in my opion 2 completly diffrent cars.


well good luck to robert figured ijust give ya a hard time:D

99SilverSS,

MSRP is the only logical, consistent and verifiable way to compare “prices” of new cars; you can disagree all you want with that statement but most people here, regardless of their particular opinion about any given vehicle, will recognize the logic of comparing MSRP to MSRP and the illogic of trying to cpmpare what somebody paid for some car somewhere as a basis for comparison.

I am apparently wrong about the 2003 Z’s base MSRP being in the $23/24 range – it does indeed appear to be $26,269 which means a difference of roughly $3,500 between a 2003 Z and a 2002 Z/28…I still would say certainly in the same ball park. And, as the sticker on my 2000 Z/28 was in excess of $25,000 I would still say, the price level is comparable. Is the 350Z a slightly more expensive vehicle than a comprabably equipped Z/28, yes…is it significantly more expensive; I guess that’s for each person to decide but I wouldn’t think most people would think so unless that difference is THE make or break point for a buyer.

I’m not sure why you say no one did a test of an LS1 Z/28…somewhere in my stack I have the issue of C&D where they did…at any rate, I believe the numbers I cited was for a 2002 Z/28 and came from “Enging-power.com”.

As to the ¼ mile times; if the Z/28’s times are so misstated, explain the logic that supports the (at least unstated assumption) that the 350Z is not also underrated/misstated? As has been said many times, we can argue specific ¼ times all day, however, if the testing itself is done on a consistent basis then the comparison is valid even if someone else might be able to post a lower or higher ¼ ET on some other track on some other day in some other Z/28 or 350Z.

I didn’t just jump in because someone “mentioned” the 350Z - I can live with people here not liking the 350Z or hating it for whatever reason but when someone (who probably has zero experience with the car) makes a ridiculous, albeit predictable, out of hand dismissal of the 350Z (as was done) then, yes, I’m going to respond and defend the Z.

well good luck to robert figured ijust give ya a hard time:D
That's Ok, I can take it...the question is, can we still be friends??? :think:

That's Ok, I can take it...the question is, can we still be friends??? :think:

only under one condition























i get a ride in the gt-r LOL j/k

Robert, you seem like a nice guy, you are keeping it civil and mean well, but I have a huge problem with what you said about the acceleration relative to both cars. You said that the 350Z and the LS1 run similar acceleration times, and that is not true. You have given numerous magazine examples, times you have been to the track and what not. The fact of the matter is before the 06 350Z, they dynoed in the range of 230-245rwhp with less torque. LS1's consistently put down 290rwhp-300rwhp, with around 310-320rwhp for the 01's and 02's. They weigh about the same with the Z coming in near or around 3200lb's and the Camaro in the 3350range, letting your sigma be 50lb's to account for any skewed numbers. So with roughly the same weight, there is still at least a 60rwhp difference.

A better comparison of the 350Z would be the LT1. They dyno about the same, but the LT1 weighs in the 3500lb range. They both run the same times. A few ringer 13.5/13.6 cars, but the majority run High 13's/Low 14's at 99-101mph. Again, in conclusion an LT1 is a much better comparison for the 350Z in terms of acceleration, but not handling.

I would give the edge to the 350Z in the handling department hands down for better tires, suspension, and weight. That I agree with, but for everything else, the acceleration between an LS1 and a VQ35DE is quite different. I drive these cars every weekend at my job, and the power is totally different with the LS1 winning hands down.




By the end of 2008; the next Z will be out and (it is at least rumored) that it will be in the area of 400HP so performance should be on par with the next Camaro - of course, since neither car is in production yet; who knows how they’ll stack up then.

For the 350Z to have 400hp, its going to need a V8 or some forced induction to hit that number. Porsche is about the only company that has 6 cylinders that hit 400hp N/A. I think there should be a 450Z without a doubt, the 4.5 V8 thats in the Q45, FX45, and M45 is a great motor! The question is can they keep the weight, cost, and balance all in line with the current car.

rasputin,

Thanks for the comments.

Most of the dispute in ¼ mile times between the 350Z and the Z/28 are in the range of 4 or 5 tenths of a second…I guess for some that’s a huge difference but I would say that in an overall comparison the difference between 13.5 and 14 in the quarter is not a huge difference….I don’t know, I haven’t drag raced since I was 19 and just don't get into like I once did so maybe it’s just that ¼ performance isn’t quite as important to me as it is for those who live and die by that figure!

As far as curb weight all I can say is that every site I’ve found so far lists the curb weight for an LS1 Camaro at/around the 3,500lb mark so I can’t account for the difference between that and the figures given by you and others - it’s especially curious since the source for most figures like curb weight, wheelbase, etc. that are quoted by most magazines/websites is the manufacturer itself. Meaning, I can’t understand why GM would give a curb weight that far off of base???

Your RWHP numbers are what I’ve herd for a long time and I don’t dispute them. That said, I did dyno my Z/28 (F-Body Gathering in Atlanta in 2002) and was disappointed; my plugs did need to be replaced (had about 55K on the car then) so maybe it was that or maybe my LS1 was just not a “good” one but mine wasn’t putting down anywhere near 290 to the rear wheels. I’ve not yet dynoed my 350Z but plan to sometime soon – it will be interesting to see what it puts down.

The 350Z GT-S is putting out 382HP and 4.8 0-60 using, as you guessed, a supercharger - not available in the US (at least not so far) but Nissan has just confirmed (this week I think) production for Europe. I’m not suggesting 400HP from the VQ3.5L but it is being significantly re-worked (ostensibly for eventual use in the GT-R) so we probably haven’t seen the full HP/TQ potential of that V6 yet…the “450Z” would be with the 4.5L V8 which is already putting out considerable HP and could easily reach 400+ if that’s the direction taken…it’s all a guess at this point.

2003 350Z 0-60 in 5.4 sec and ¼ mile in 14.1 @ 101.0 MPH
2002 Camaro Z/28 0-60 in 5.5 sec and, ¼ mile in 14.0 @ 101.3 MPH
2002 Camaro SS 0-60 in 5.3 sec and ¼ mile in 13.7 @ 105.6 MPH
You can magazine race all you want, but the only way you'd come near a 14.0 at a measly 101 mph in a 6spd LS1 Z28 at a real 1/4 track is if you seriously blew it driving wise, or are running at a higher altitude track. A Z28 or SS is around a half second faster through the quarter mile with a several mph advantage than a similarly driven 350z tested under the same conditions/track w/ equal drivers, period. That's about as simple as it gets... The big problem w/ trying to compare magazine numbers is they aren't testing at the same time w/ the same conditions, same road surface (since most aren't run at a real track), nor same testing devices, etc. You're trying to compare numbers that aren't really comparable. A 350z will not run within a tenth of a second and the same mph through the 1/4 as a 6spd LS1 Z28 under the same conditions given equal driving. No where near that close. A half second and several mph advantage through the 1/4 mile is not a piddly advantage to be dismissed, that is a serious beatdown for the 350z.

You can see a major disparity in the numbers you've posted, just by comparing the Z28 to the SS. Your average SS is absolutely no where near a half second and 4mph faster than your average Z28 given the same testing conditions (and that's even a mediocre time given for a 6psd SS), the power and acceleratoin difference between the SS and Z28 is negligible in reality.

HP/TQ
350Z 287/274@4,800
Z/28 305/335@4,000
SS 325/350@4,000
Minor detail, both the LS1s are underrated from the factory, especially the Z28. The true power difference between the 350Z and the average LS1 Fbody is pretty substantial, about the highest you'll see a stock 350z put down on a chassis dyno is around 240ish rwhp. A average LS1 will hit around 300 rwhp, regardless of whether it is a Z28 or SS. If you do the power to weight comparisons w/ the real numbers these cars are putting down, the 350z is at a serious disadvantage.

If you get right down to it, the 350Z is comparable to the acceleration of LT1 powered 4thgens, and LS1s are significantly faster than that...

Honestly I find it hard to believe this Robert Nashville character has owned both judging by the stuff he's posted (which shows no real first person understanding of how a LS1 powered vehicle performs acceleration wise). But perhaps I'm just too skeptical in this world of internet BSers.

BTW, I'm not knocking the 350z at all or saying it is or isn't a competitor in the marketplace w/ new or older Camaros. I like them and am aways on the lookout for one to have a friendly race with on the streets.

Ray86IROC,
You are covering what is now old ground here.

This business of discounting magazines and website stats is really getting beyond tiresome; especially when all anyone want’s to offer is assertions with no evidence to back them up.

Since some of you seem intent on continuing the ¼ mile argument, how about one of you who has run some of the ¼ mile times you’ve claimed in a factory stock Z/28 on a consistent basis scan a couple of time slips from the track they did it on (as well as providing at least some evidence that the car was truly stock) and then we can put the whole thing to rest???

Doubting that any of you will go to the trouble of actually providing evidence rather than rhetoric here is something you might find interesting…

A stock 2006 350Z with a ¼ mile ET of 13.640 seconds
http://www.dragtimes.com/Nissan-350Z-Timeslip-8268.html

A stock 2001 Z/28 with a ¼ mile ET of 13.571
http://www.dragtimes.com/Chevrolet-Camaro-Timeslip-9210.html

All told, a whopping 0.069 seconds difference. Now, before you all come out of the woodwork to explain away the above the point is not really the specifit ETs, the point (and what I've maintained all along) is that the difference in performance between a 350Z and a Camaro is, at best, pretty small.

And Ray, believe what you want; there are people active on this site who know me personally and know what I drive and what I’ve driven…if you want to know who to contact to ask send me a PM and I’ll tell you.

Robert, you seem like a nice guy, you are keeping it civil and mean well, but I have a huge problem with what you said about the acceleration relative to both cars. You said that the 350Z and the LS1 run similar acceleration times, and that is not true. You have given numerous magazine examples, times you have been to the track and what not. The fact of the matter is before the 06 350Z, they dynoed in the range of 230-245rwhp with less torque. LS1's consistently put down 290rwhp-300rwhp, with around 310-320rwhp for the 01's and 02's. They weigh about the same with the Z coming in near or around 3200lb's and the Camaro in the 3350range, letting your sigma be 50lb's to account for any skewed numbers. So with roughly the same weight, there is still at least a 60rwhp difference.

A better comparison of the 350Z would be the LT1. They dyno about the same, but the LT1 weighs in the 3500lb range. They both run the same times. A few ringer 13.5/13.6 cars, but the majority run High 13's/Low 14's at 99-101mph. Again, in conclusion an LT1 is a much better comparison for the 350Z in terms of acceleration, but not handling.

I would give the edge to the 350Z in the handling department hands down for better tires, suspension, and weight. That I agree with, but for everything else, the acceleration between an LS1 and a VQ35DE is quite different. I drive these cars every weekend at my job, and the power is totally different with the LS1 winning hands down.






For the 350Z to have 400hp, its going to need a V8 or some forced induction to hit that number. Porsche is about the only company that has 6 cylinders that hit 400hp N/A. I think there should be a 450Z without a doubt, the 4.5 V8 thats in the Q45, FX45, and M45 is a great motor! The question is can they keep the weight, cost, and balance all in line with the current car.
Exactly what I was trying to convey in my previous post. I will not disagree that the 350z is an awesome handling car but I will not accept that they are similar in accelaration! :bow:

only under one condition

i get a ride in the gt-r LOL j/k
Ok by me so long as I don't have to make the trip to Albany to make it happen! :)

Wow, this thread has gone from only kinda funny to completely ridiculous.

GT4 is a competent enough car game but it is nowhere near a real life simulation. I'm wondering how the Camaro SS could be modeled correctly if they list maximum torque at something like 250ftlbs. Maybe it is just a conversion error in the car description, but maybe not. I remember reviews of GT3 that showed lap times in the game versus real life lap times on Laguna Seca, but it was not like it was precise by any stretch of the imagination.

The 2002 Z28 is significantly faster than a 350Z in a straight line. Stock for stock and on stock rubber the 350Z might be navigating through turns faster than a Z28 on the Eagle GSCs. I don't know if it would be any faster than an SS though the turns though. It might have the advantage on the smaller courses, but I doubt it would have much real advantage on a road course.

FWIW MM&FF tested the Z28 and SS and got 12.9 and 12.8s in the quarter mile respectively.

I disagree that the 350Z is not a competitor to the Camaro, but agree that the 350Z is good competition.thats where you are wrong, test any car in gt4 with the right peramiters and you will get damn near the same lap results on any real course. for eg. nurburgring 350z time in real life is an 8:24 if i remember correctly. in gt4 i did an 8:23. thats close enough in my books. they model the cars pretty damn accurate in the game. also the torque numbers were explained as they were a glitch in the numbers posted but dont affect gameplay or how the car goes about the tracks. ive spent 100's of hours in this game, i have a buddy that likes doing this stuff with me, we set the cars up to real life and have lap battles with stock cars to see where they fit. sometime i want to start a ring chart and then compaire it to real life, and then you can see how close this game is. a second or 2 is nothing, sure it may not be real life but it shows you the cars are pretty similar in its capabilities around diff. tracks. neither is better then the other really they are identical almost. i dont like 350z's i like camaros. i did this test origionally to tickle my fancy, and the results suprised me:)

350Z is like 3200lbs camaro SS is like 3500lbs, thats a big diff.

oh god, dont compare games via video games. how old are we again???? I remember using that argument when I was 18, its still not valid now.

350Z is like 3200lbs camaro SS is like 3500lbs, thats a big diff.

33XX range, an LT1 would be near 3500.

33XX range, an LT1 would be near 3500.
I'm not trying to dispute anybody's claim here but it just seems to me that something as basic and as easily measured as a vehicle’s curb weight shouldn’t have to be a matter of opinion or conjecture.

Lots of you keep mentioning curb weights in the 3,200-3,300lb range but I’ve yet to see anything substantive to support that.

Can anyone cite a reliable (such as a GM official) curb weight for a late model (LS1) Camaro???

Here are some of the sites I've found...

Some folks on LS1tech.com give figures in the 3,500-3,600lb range
http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=291231

Autoweb.com list a 2002 Z.28 at 3,577 http://www.autoweb.com/content/research/vir/index.cfm/vehicle_number_int/1008776/Action/StandardFeatures

Carsmart list the exact same http://www.carsmart.com/content/research/vir/index.cfm/vehicle_number_int/1008776/Action/StandardFeatures

NewCarTestDrive.com also lists it at 3,577
http://www.nctd.com/printversion-review.cfm?Vehicle=2002_Chevrolet_Camaro&ReviewID=1157

Call me crazy but if three “consumer oriented” sites lists the curb weight exactly the same (3,577) that seems to me to be an indication that someone (like GM itself) has supplied to them (which as I said in an earlier post is where I think most basic stats like this come from).

So, I ask again, who can post an official curb weight for a late model/LS1 Camaro that list curb weight at or under 3,300lbs as some here are claiming?

Better question, who here can explain why something as mundane and as easily measured as a curb weight is so difficult to come by???

well, since this thread went on anyway, i saw pictures i motor trend (i know) of a supercharged 350z making 380hp. i think it was intended for the sema show as a thinly vieled concept
It just now occured to me what you must have seen...likely the 350Z GT-S which is producing 382 HP and has a 0-60 of 4.8 sec (not in the US yet but possible; it was just Ok'd for production for Europe).

The 3,577 lbs is for a convertible model, a couple of the sites you linked to had that buried in there.

I'm not sure I buy 33xx lbs either though, I've seen 3450 listed before, but I don't have a site or source handy. I just use 3500 lbs as a general rule of thumb...

However, even if you use 3500 lbs for the Z28, and 3200 lbs for the 350z, figuring 300 rwhp (or even 290 rwhp on the lowish side) for the LS1 and 240 rwhp for the 350z the power to weight ratio is still in favor of the Z28 by a decent amount. Those rwhp numbers are average runs from corrected dynojets btw.

racing at the local tracks since i was 19 (1998) and that was also the time when LS1's ruled the tracks. i have seen many races and run many myself and if you can show me a 4th gen that runs 14's on a good run (not a botched one), i'll give you $100.



Is it too late to claim that $100? My 99 did it. I could only muster a 13.99 a couple of times while stock. Of course that's with a blown cat and some extra weight.:D

OK OK OK! The 350z, awsome car! Camaro and 350 are nearly the same price wieght and speed. OK! Are we done?

oh god, dont compare games via video games. how old are we again???? I remember using that argument when I was 18, its still not valid now.how is it not valid? im not 18 either, and the fact is, GT4 accurately portays track times via the car. its been proven 10000's of times. video game or not. track times dont lie. they are pretty equal. the more this thread goes in, im inclined to side with Robert_Nashville on this. even though i started out saying camaro will whoop a 350z. stock for stock.

99SilverSS,

MSRP is the only logical, consistent and verifiable way to compare “prices” of new cars; you can disagree all you want with that statement but most people here, regardless of their particular opinion about any given vehicle, will recognize the logic of comparing MSRP to MSRP and the illogic of trying to cpmpare what somebody paid for some car somewhere as a basis for comparison.

I am apparently wrong about the 2003 Z’s base MSRP being in the $23/24 range – it does indeed appear to be $26,269 which means a difference of roughly $3,500 between a 2003 Z and a 2002 Z/28…I still would say certainly in the same ball park. And, as the sticker on my 2000 Z/28 was in excess of $25,000 I would still say, the price level is comparable. Is the 350Z a slightly more expensive vehicle than a comprabably equipped Z/28, yes…is it significantly more expensive; I guess that’s for each person to decide but I wouldn’t think most people would think so unless that difference is THE make or break point for a buyer.

Hey I was just trying to explain to you what I paid since you have questioned it and coincidentally that didn't support your point. I then agreed to play the MSRP game and searched the sites you provided and found the 350Z to be more than you stated it to be. No harm no foul again I won't say the $3,500 is a deal breaker or not but that is 15% of the Z28's sticker.


I’m not sure why you say no one did a test of an LS1 Z/28…somewhere in my stack I have the issue of C&D where they did…at any rate, I believe the numbers I cited was for a 2002 Z/28 and came from “Enging-power.com

As to the ¼ mile times; if the Z/28’s times are so misstated, explain the logic that supports the (at least unstated assumption) that the 350Z is not also underrated/misstated? As has been said many times, we can argue specific ¼ times all day, however, if the testing itself is done on a consistent basis then the comparison is valid even if someone else might be able to post a lower or higher ¼ ET on some other track on some other day in some other Z/28 or 350Z. ”.

My point here is I was not able to find the 14.0 1/4 mile you posted for the Z28 in the sites provided. That doesn't mean its not there but I didn't see it.

I agree the 350Z times are probably a bit slow considdering I think I've seen them run low 14's with regular drivers at a less than ideal track so give it to a good driver, like yourself maybe, and I'm sure 13's can be broken.
For LS1's well a Z28 and an SS won't run that far apart, .5 is as I explained before is quite a difference.
Not to mention if I may, my own personal experiences drag racing against a 350Z seemed to support the half second or more Camaro advantage. And like you mentioned before with your road racing experience if your personal experience is supported why not interject it? So I will.


I didn’t just jump in because someone “mentioned” the 350Z - I can live with people here not liking the 350Z or hating it for whatever reason but when someone (who probably has zero experience with the car) makes a ridiculous, albeit predictable, out of hand dismissal of the 350Z (as was done) then, yes, I’m going to respond and defend the Z.

Well I'm glad you admitted to defending the 350Z. Sure it's justified because the remark of "they will be seing 98 LS1 taillights" may not prove to be true on a road course but may prove to be true on a drag strip. Isn't debate great we are right where we started but all smarter for participating! :eek:

OK OK OK! The 350z, awsome car! Camaro and 350 are nearly the same price wieght and speed. OK! Are we done?

no the really need to make sure the horse is dead a few more good wacks and they should be done:lol:

speaking of beating a dead horse what happen to that in its not in the smiles any more?

no the really need to make sure the horse is dead a few more good wacks and they should be done:lol:

speaking of beating a dead horse what happen to that in its not in the smiles any more?

Oh, is that what they are doing? Beating a dead horse? I thought it was a dead 350z...

*hides the baseball bat that had just smashed a 350z*

how is it not valid? im not 18 either, and the fact is, GT4 accurately portays track times via the car. its been proven 10000's of times. video game or not. track times dont lie. they are pretty equal. the more this thread goes in, im inclined to side with Robert_Nashville on this. even though i started out saying camaro will whoop a 350z. stock for stock.


really, where? its a video game bro, not real life. nice try.

thats where you are wrong, test any car in gt4 with the right peramiters and you will get damn near the same lap results on any real course. for eg. nurburgring 350z time in real life is an 8:24 if i remember correctly. in gt4 i did an 8:23. thats close enough in my books. they model the cars pretty damn accurate in the game. also the torque numbers were explained as they were a glitch in the numbers posted but dont affect gameplay or how the car goes about the tracks. ive spent 100's of hours in this game, i have a buddy that likes doing this stuff with me, we set the cars up to real life and have lap battles with stock cars to see where they fit. sometime i want to start a ring chart and then compaire it to real life, and then you can see how close this game is. a second or 2 is nothing, sure it may not be real life but it shows you the cars are pretty similar in its capabilities around diff. tracks. neither is better then the other really they are identical almost. i dont like 350z's i like camaros. i did this test origionally to tickle my fancy, and the results suprised me:)


GT4 is far from accurate, and not just the cars. I see discrepancies in the nurburgring, and I even compared the game two days after being on the track in real life. I drive many different cars on many different tracks as a driving instructor for a number of car clubs and I can say that while I enjoy gt4, it is a medocre simulation at best.

im probably one of the few people but i cross shop tons of cars.

basically anything thats 2 door, rwd, sporty, and handles well.

i hope the new camaro is not a straight line car only. that was not gms intention in the 60s and i hope it isnt today.

i smell alot of bs in this thread:rolleyes:


bottom line, 350z contends a LS1, oh no! not the precious camaro with competition, these cars are far from great:rolleyes:

Hey STEEL,

You posted "Oh, is that what they are doing? Beating a dead horse? I thought it was a dead 350z..."

No, it's the Camaro, until 09 :) :) :)

This needs to be the Podcast Thread of the Week. :)

Hey STEEL,

You posted "Oh, is that what they are doing? Beating a dead horse? I thought it was a dead 350z..."

No, it's the Camaro, until 09 :) :) :)

NOW IT MAKES SENCE!

NOW IT MAKES SENCE!

:think:

NOW IT MAKES SENCE!

:think:

lol...... and yet it still doesn't... :confused:

to the arguement of 350z and ls1's. no comparison my stock lt1 would send 350z's packin. i was into street racin for alot of years in glen burnie md. i stood no chance to a stock ls1, hated it but always got spanked. after adding long tube headers, drag radials a cold air intake, i could run with stock ls1's. the long tubes really opened up the third gear which was murder on a lt1 and heaven on an ls1. i went to a 13.4 @ 103. it may handle well but the 350z wouldnt come close in the 1/4. now with that being said i heard and im not a gm engineer but as everything we know of the new camaro is speculation until its out, i heard they will be irs. they want it to handle to keep with that market. so gm knows they need to handle better and that only appealing to the enthusiast wont sell enough. i however wish that would be an option as i dont like irs and prefer a solid axle for drag racing. with all that said i had an lt1 busted 350z's all the time and i wasnt comparable to a stock ls1.

I have seen both race at the track and it's not even close going head to head maybe a 350z with a supercharger or something at 7lbs of boost can run high 12's with drag radials. It might run with the 2004 or 05 gto the one with 350 horsepower because to me it's a slow car. And at the track I saw it do like 14.3 or so.

I have seen both race at the track and it's not even close going head to head maybe a 350z with a supercharger or something at 7lbs of boost can run high 12's with drag radials. It might run with the 2004 or 05 gto the one with 350 horsepower because to me it's a slow car. And at the track I saw it do like 14.3 or so.
Give it a rest...

Several days ago I asked for someone to actually post a time slip for a provable stock LS1 F-body to support the ET's being claimed and no one has even tried.

It's one thing to say they consistently do low 13's and high 12's but no one has posted the evidence to prove it - the two links to time slips I posted a couple of pages ago was the fastest F-body listed as being stock and a stock 350Z was all of a 1/2 second slower.

A stock LS1 F-body probably is a couple of ticks faster than a Z in the 1/4 on a consistent basis but that was never the point in the first place. :bow:

I read just about every article ever published on the Z/28 between 1999 and about 2002 and I’ve never seen anyone claim low 13’s for a stock Z/28.

A tany rate, "ow the heck I can compare" them is precisely that I’ve owned both cars and competed in both. Putting aside for the moment that the SCCA puts the F-body and the 350Z in different classes I can tell you form many dozens of Solo2 runs that a 350Z will eat a Z/28’s lunch all day long given the same driver/same driver competence…the Z/28 has more raw power but it’s also heavier and the Z is far more balanced and composed when it’s being thrashed around an autocross course the a Z/28.

Here are details from sources other than what I quoted before…as I said, we can argue tenth’s of a second here and a mile-per-hour all night long but by any objective measure the Z’s performance is on par and in some categories, better than the Z/28. Obviously, the SS’s better HP/TQ gives it a measurable edge (except in the slalom).

I understand some people aren't going to like the Z just because it's not a GM product and those people will never care about the numbers regardless of where they come from.

HP/TQ
350Z 287/274@4,800
Z/28 305/335@4,000
SS 325/350@4,000

Curb Wt
350Z 3225
Z/28 3574
SS 3411

0-60
350Z 5.7
Z/28 No Info
SS 5.2


1/4 Mile
350Z 14.0 @ 101.9
Z/28 14.0 @ 101.3
SS 13.49 @ 107.3

300' Sk Pd 600' Slalom
350Z 0.86 66.4
Z/28 0.83 65.7
SS 0.88 63.0

http://www.supercarx.com/articles/specifications/vehicle_specs.htm

http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/coupe/112_9909_sport_convertibles_comparison/specs_price.html

http://www.gminsidenews.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19594


Good lord, this is an old thread, but, as a former Mustang owner myself, stop shooting yourself in the head.
A LS1 bone stock in good weather with a good driver CAN run a high 12......the same with a Zcar can run what a stock GT can....high 13's.
Stop being a tar tar.
New Z car bas model will in my prediction beat a GT, and all other's.
The GT from the rumor's I hear will be 350HP by 2009......and the High end Z28 being 450..so my guess is the low end will be 400.........or GM is playing a losing game.
Again though..........no, your 350Z isn't running shiat against a 5 year old DEAD Camaro....it's running neck and neck with the old GT's and losing to the new ones........which will be smacked (imo) by the new real Z cars......the Camaro.
Bring it on GM.......I want one. :)

...Stop being a tar tar.


lol:D

to the arguement of 350z and ls1's. no comparison my stock lt1 would send 350z's packin.
That's just :bs:

A LS1 bone stock in good weather with a good driver CAN run a high 12.
Where’s the evidence? I keep hearing lots and lots of opinions and boasts but that’s all.

Oh my Gawd, I cant believe the BS floating around in here.

A stock 350Z will get spanked by an LS1 auto OR stick...bone stock.

The LT1 Z28 or SS is a much better comparison for it.

AutoXing yes they are close though, no denying that.

Robert: if your LS1 didnt dyno near 290rwhp then you bought a turd or dogged the crap out of it/didnt take care of it :lol:

Mine put down 326rwhp bone stock with about 12K(?) miles on it. Almost the exact same for the 10+ people I know with LS1s...and more than half of them ran low 13s, with the rest running around 13.4-13.6. I've never seen an LS1 run a 14 sec pass without missing a shift or losing traction. :confused:

BTW .5 secs in the 1/4 is a big difference. At 100+ MPH you can travel pretty far in .5 seconds.

BTW I think the 350Z is worth every penny, but not for me...just so you know. ;)

Where’s the evidence? I keep hearing lots and lots of opinions and boasts but that’s all.

Dude read GM High Tech Performance, and MM&FF it's been proven for years. Search their site, you'll probably find it. Plus I've personally seen quite a few run high 12s BONE stock. Seeing an LS1 running a low 13 second pass is like seeing a toaster toast some toast...its pretty much a given save for a power outtage or something ;)

Where’s the evidence? I keep hearing lots and lots of opinions and boasts but that’s all.
No one has bothered to post up "evidence" because it is such common knowledge how they perform that this thread is completely ridiculous.

Here's a 13.5 from a auto convertable and a 13.13 from a auto hardtop (different day I think): http://www.gmhightechperformance.com/features/0211gmhtp_2001_chevrolet_camaro_ss_feature/

That one also mentions the 12.89 Evan Smith got from a stock Z28, they also ran a 01 I think it was SS to a 12.9 in slightly worse conditions.
Ah, this snippet (from a mustang mag) mentions that one: http://www.stangbangers.com/01Bullitt_Article2c.jpg

Here is one where Popular Mechanics only managed a 13.4 w/ a SS, but got a WS6 (same darn car) to a 13.1, apparently all in the launch: http://www.popularmechanics.com/automotive/new_cars/1269976.html?page=11

I have a HotRod article around here somewhere on a 98 Z28 test I can scan if I can find it again, they ran a 13.3.

Go to LS1tech.com and search for stock quarter times, you'll find ALOT of people running low/mid 13s and a few in the 12s stock, those that run closer to mid 13s usually do so w/ a less than stellar 60 foot time. (their search seems to be broken at the moment or I'd link to one of the stock times threads I seem to recall seeing)

Of course I think it's silly to say all LS1s run 12.89s just from some article, but low 13s are definitely what they should run in good conditions w/ a good driver. A 350Z in the same conditions will not touch that, they will be something like a half second+ slower, they are a average high 13/low 14 second car... A half second (and an average of several MPH) beating in the quarter mile is a straight up beat down. The 350Z in the same condtions w/ an equal driver in each does not contend w/ a LS1 in the straight line. More like an LT1.

I'm not spending more than the 5 minutes searching it took to find these to prove this crap to someone who is a self-proclaimed expert on LS1 performance, yet is somehow shocked by the near everyday occurence of stock low 13s. You want more you find it yourself. Or you could just bury your head in another motortrend and continue on w/ the 14.0 1/4 mile BS.

No one has bothered to post up "evidence" because it is such common knowledge how they perform that this thread is completely ridiculous.

Here's a 13.5 from a auto convertable and a 13.13 from a auto hardtop (different day I think): http://www.gmhightechperformance.com/features/0211gmhtp_2001_chevrolet_camaro_ss_feature/

That one also mentions the 12.89 Evan Smith got from a stock Z28, they also ran a 01 I think it was SS to a 12.9 in slightly worse conditions.
Ah, this snippet (from a mustang mag) mentions that one: http://www.stangbangers.com/01Bullitt_Article2c.jpg

Here is one where Popular Mechanics only managed a 13.4 w/ a SS, but got a WS6 (same darn car) to a 13.1, apparently all in the launch: http://www.popularmechanics.com/automotive/new_cars/1269976.html?page=11

I have a HotRod article around here somewhere on a 98 Z28 test I can scan if I can find it again, they ran a 13.3.

Go to LS1tech.com and search for stock quarter times, you'll find ALOT of people running low/mid 13s and a few in the 12s stock, those that run closer to mid 13s usually do so w/ a less than stellar 60 foot time. (their search seems to be broken at the moment or I'd link to one of the stock times threads I seem to recall seeing)

Of course I think it's silly to say all LS1s run 12.89s just from some article, but low 13s are definitely what they should run in good conditions w/ a good driver. A 350Z in the same conditions will not touch that, they will be something like a half second+ slower, they are a average high 13/low 14 second car... A half second (and an average of several MPH) beating in the quarter mile is a straight up beat down. The 350Z in the same condtions w/ an equal driver in each does not contend w/ a LS1 in the straight line. More like an LT1.

I'm not spending more than the 5 minutes searching it took to find these to prove this crap to someone who is a self-proclaimed expert on LS1 performance, yet is somehow shocked by the near everyday occurence of stock low 13s. You want more you find it yourself. Or you could just bury your head in another motortrend and continue on w/ the 14.0 1/4 mile BS.

:Owned:

You said what I wanted to, but alas...Im too lazy to cut n paste, etc :p

This just goes to show what a bad rap the LS1s get sometimes just because of some underrated HP/TQ numbers & stupid journalists who cant drive if their lives depended on it. lol my GF can run low 13s all day in a stocker ;)

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f308/NyRicanB0i/12.jpg


I'll have timeslips up in a few hours................

I'll have timeslips up in a few
hours................
You don't need to bother unless you really want to post them...however, where were you and all the others 3 or 4 pages ago??? :)

Tell you what, looks like later LS1s can run into the low 13’s and even break into the high 12’s…why don’t we just leave it at that so that all those who think the only performance measure of a vehicle is a ¼ mile ET can rest easy. I’ve also no doubt that the next Camaro will also do well in the ¼ against its competition.

What I hope people here (and at GM) understand, however, is that a lot of people who buy cars don’t give a rat’s ass about ¼ mile times and will never go anywhere near a drag strip…those people care about slalom times and g-force and 0-60 and 0-100 and 0-150 times and the overall balance and composure of a car at speed and they care about getting a quality car for their money…they care about whether the leather on their seats or the carpet on the floorboard will wear out before they run out of payments and they care about whether there will be a major recall on their vehicle.

Regardless of exactly “what” vehicles will be the competition for the next Camaro (which was, after all the actual subject of this thread); GM needs to realize that there are a lot of vehicles in the upper $20K to $40K range (which is where I suspect the next Camaro will be), that have a lot to offer for the money both in terms of overall performance and quality.

to start off here is my list of 4th gens
1998 a4 z28
1999 a4 z28
2000 m6 SS still have
2002 m6 hawk still have wife's car
2002 a4 formula still have ,drag car
and a 1982 TA still have

my 1998 z was headed to be my drag car, my 1999 i bought in oct of 2002 and it was bone stock.this car was to be my cruise around town car. it had 15,000 miles on it when i picked it up. it was a 3:23 a4 car. no computer work done, it even had stock air lid. i must say i was very surprised the one and only time i brought it to the drag strip. these times are with the goodyear gsc.
so you asked for timeslips here they are car was number 804

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v605/Lorcinls1/ScannedImage-2.jpg

ps i would rather read articles on 1/4 mile times from car craft or hot rod, not toyotatrend. i do have a motor trend that posts the 1/4 mile times feb 1998 issue z28 13.7 and the formula 13.8. i also found a car and driver feb 1999 that also reported a 13.8 from a z28.

Guys I think this thread is beat to death. It was supposed to be about the 2009 Camaro and competition and we end up with LS1 vs. 350Z.

First of all Mr. Nashville is obvioulsy a big fan of the 350Z and has made numerous attempts to defend it against a lot of pro-Camaro rhetoric. His biggest mistake is one I've seen quite a bit. Don't quote magazine articles to make your point. That just doesn't garner a lot of respect on a board like this. Not to mention the results were somewhat off from what we've seen posted lately. Be that as it may it's obvious he feels the 350Z is plenty of competition for the LS1. We've examined the cost issue, and the handling issue and its pretty clear the drag racing issue is resolved. I don't think we're going to change anyones mind here. We could all post time slips and even video from a road course showing any kind of results and depending on what side you like that's who you'll see as the best or proof things are skewed.

While I will say this the 350Z is a spectacular car that doesn a lot very well and if the 09 Camaro is as competitive as the LS1 F-bodies have been with it we'll be in great shape.

I really hate to be controversial here, :D but…

I’m not sure what you are basing your boast on but a quick search resulted in the following…

2003 350Z 0-60 in 5.4 sec and ¼ mile in 14.1 @ 101.0 MPH
2002 Camaro Z/28 0-60 in 5.5 sec and, ¼ mile in 14.0 @ 101.3 MPH
2002 Camaro SS 0-60 in 5.3 sec and ¼ mile in 13.7 @ 105.6 MPH

Now, people can argue about a tenth of a second here and a mile-per-hour there but most published performance testing on the 350Z and the Z28/SS show that the 305Z was certainly on par with the Z/28 and SS. Also, on a purely personal note, since I’ve owned a 2000 Z/28 and a 2004 350Z and have autocrossed and hot-lapped both I can attest that the Z gets around both the autocross course and the track faster than my Z/28 did.

By the end of 2008; the next Z will be out and (it is at least rumored) that it will be in the area of 400HP so performance should be on par with the next Camaro - of course, since neither car is in production yet; who knows how they’ll stack up then.

Now, whether the Z or the G35 are aimed at the same market as the Camaro/Mustang/Challenger is a matter of opinion but I say no, they aren’t…I’m sure some buyers will cross-shop but I suspect you would find that the typical Camaro buyer has different demographics than the typical Z or G35 buyer.



You my friend, are an idiot. You have no idea what your talking about. The 350z is around a full second slower than a
LS1 powered vehicle. You don't have to believe me. But the dyno numbers do not lie.


What an average stock LS1 dyno's.
http://chuckb.1le.net/01_trans_am/images/2001_ta_stock_dyno.jpg


An LS1 with just a lid.
http://www3.sympatico.ca/meconse/DeanDynoMay2005.jpg


Here goes a stock 350Z.
http://www.autocarparts.com/images/products/Ingen/dyno/injen-350z_intake.gif


Another stock 350Z.
http://www.brainspikes.com/350z/images/dyno.jpg


A stock G35.
http://dubs.unixprohost.com/albums/MY_R32/R32_G35_coupe_dyno.jpg


Now do you see why there is such a big difference in performance between the two vehicles. Don't get me wrong. The 350z is nice for what is it. And its also nice that its rwd. But the LS1 is in a completely different league when compared to the 350z in raw speed.

The above dyno graphs explain clearly how my N/A 1997 Dinan M3 (3.2L) could be very competitive against similarly modded 350Z's, and beat them as often as I lost to them, since it's clearly a drivers race with those two cars. I put down 221hp and 224ft/lbs on a dynojet.

It also clearly explains why I got my a$$ HANDED to me every time I raced an LS1 with that car.

What was said above is correct, a full second and 5-10mph in the quarter is a straight up and down a$$ kicking.

So, either Robert Nashville has never actually 'raced' anything in his life, or he never really owned an LS1. It's one or the other here.....maybe he's just using the LS1 farce about having owned one to have an excuse to sit and argue about his beloved Nissans all d@mn day long. It's pretty clear to anyone on this board, that this is all he ever does, and it's apparently his sole purpose of posting here. Are you sure you didn't have the 3800 V6? I know you could get them with the fancy wheels and ground effects packages. :bow:

:D

the LS1 f-body clearly has the win in the accelleration and price department.. but i think the 350z would have better handling, considering the IRS, and the fact that it's lighter and smaller and sits lower

in a road race? the fbody would probably win.. in auto-x? it'd be darn close

but for the money.. the fbody has a big advantage imo.. and is the better bang for your buck in all departments

So, either Robert Nashville has never actually 'raced' anything in his life, or he never really owned an LS1. It's one or the other here.....maybe he's just using the LS1 farce about having owned one to have an excuse to sit and argue about his beloved Nissans all d@mn day long. It's pretty clear to anyone on this board, that this is all he ever does, and it's apparently his sole purpose of posting here. Are you sure you didn't have the 3800 V6? I know you could get them with the fancy wheels and ground effects packages.:D
So Mr. 2lane69 (member for all of three months and all of 75 posts) you feel qualified to judge what I've owned and what I've raced and attack my honesty?

You don’t like what I have to say…fine. You don’t like my sources of information…fine. You want to argue points like an adult instead of a child…I’m up for that. Even if you want to hold a different opinion that’s based only on emotion…that’s your right. But when you call me liar that’s not fine.

Ray86IROC,
…believe what you want; there are people active on this site who know me personally and know what I drive and what I’ve driven…if you want to know who to contact to ask send me a PM and I’ll tell you.

Not that you deserve the effort but I’ll make the same offer to you I made to Ray86IROC a few pages ago although I don't expect you to follow through - people who spout off and attack other people personally usually don’t want an inconvenient fact to get in the way of their opinions.

Something tells me you wouldn't have 90% of your posts if you weren't arguing all day about Nissans on a GM forum!!

I've got better things to do with my time than you apparently do, other than sit around and armchair bench race all day and fight over Nissans. Childishness, is spending all day, every day trying to prove your opinion on the interweb. Best of luck with all that!

Something tells me you wouldn't have 90% of your posts if you weren't arguing all day about Nissans on a GM forum!!

I've got better things to do with my time than you apparently do, other than sit around and armchair bench race all day and fight over Nissans. Childishness, is spending all day, every day trying to prove your opinion on the interweb. Best of luck with all that!
What, you mean better things to do like call someone you don't know a liar after you’ve been a member here all of three months?

Is it that you have better things to do or is it, as I suspected, that you simply aren't one to let facts get in the way of your opinion?

I suspect it’s the latter rather than the former. :rolleyes:

I really can't believe that there's a arguement going on that has degenerated into posting timeslips and dyno results to prove a LS1 is quicker than a 350Z. :lol:

Look guys, LS1 Camaros ran about 5.2 to 60, and a click below 13 in the quarter. 350Zs run about 5.5 and mid 13s. If you're at a 1/4 mile track, the Camaro is going to win almost every time... by a healthy margin. That's what it was made for. On the streets, however, the 350Z will be no farther behind than the Camaro's rear quarter panel, so the idea that a LS1 would "smoke" a 350Z is far from true.

On an autocross course, the 350Z is in it's element, and it will likely carve up a Camaro.

The 350Z is a 2 passenger sports car with a great suspension system, great balence, and a good tossable size. The 4th gen Camaro is essentially an engine in a box... or a doorstop.

Point is, arguing about what is faster is pretty pointless since both have areas where they excell at. May as well pit a Viper against a CTSv.

Not defending the Nissan, but I have lived in LA, where racing imports on the road is something of a area past time. :)

What about the new Mistsubishi Eclipse? Its in the same price range. Although its top engine is only a 3.8L V6 w/ 263hp and 0-60 in 5.8 secs, wouldnt this still be competition?

when reading this and hearing the word competition i assume he was referring to what model of cars would one looking at a camaro also consider...alot of you seem to immediately think all people want a fast, cheap car:confused:this is not the case, and that is why the camaro failed the first time around...hp numbers dont make ALOT of people by cars, that is a fact*and thats why the mustang stopped the hp war back in 93* as far as competition*i believe the following would compete with a fully loaded camaro in terms of price/performance*, and many people considering a camaro would also consider:

challenger
mustang
g35
skyline gtr(ive heard engines from v6 twin turbo to v8 pushing 400hp)
evo
wrx
eclipse
^^^all of these cars i have heard compared by actual people, who have said i think in a few years i want this but, am considering these, i even heard someone say i want an eclipse, but also want a new mustang gt^^^


*im not a fan of all of these cars, and wouldnt consider anything but a few of them* to tell you the truth, i have also outgrown camaros*my next daily driver will be a viper, my wife wants an ss to replace our g6 and the camaro would be the new family car*wifes due in december*...thats why the car must be backseat friendly atleast as much as most of the cars mention above, or else me and i think alot of other people will go elsewhere...anyone disagree?

those LS1 f-bodies sure were pigs
eww those tires, and didnt they have leaf springs too? whats this?...now they ran high 13's? haha yea right, more like high 14's! i won't even get into handling, sheesh pathetic!

I haven't been to the track, but in the stop light grand prix, the 350z can't hang with my LT1. Not even close, and all I have is bolt on mods. I don't believe for a minute, they will be running with an LS2 or whatever makes it into the Camaro, just pure BS. You want to believe those rags, go right ahead, but I'll tell you what, their posted times for F-bodies have always been a bit on the low side. They are biased against American cars...........period. No one will convince me otherwise. Very simple french publications=french hate US=no good things printed about our cars, only about their cars! YES nissan is a french company, that's it for me, I'm out.

I haven't been to the track, but in the stop light grand prix, the 350z can't hang with my LT1. Not even close, and all I have is bolt on mods. I don't believe for a minute, they will be running with an LS2 or whatever makes it into the Camaro
I can’t believe you are still trying to “prove” a 350Z can’t keep up with an LT1 or LS1 F-body…guionM pretty much said all that needed to be said two weeks ago…why don’t you give it a rest.
<see his post hereThat aside, who the hell cares if your modded LT1 can beat up a 350Z (as you claim) when you stomp on it at a stoplight…putting aside how completely stupid street racing is; as soon as you start taking about a modded car any comparison is worthless.

Even if you assume the 350Z and Camaro are competing for the same market segment (I say they aren’t), any competition won’t be between the Fifth Generation Camaro and the 350Z; it would be the Fifth Generation Camaro and the NEXT Z (which will is likely to be pushing around a good deal less weight than the next Camaro and around 400HP).

I can’t believe you are still trying to “prove” a 350Z can’t keep up with an LT1 or LS1 F-body…guionM pretty much said all that needed to be said two weeks ago…why don’t you give it a rest.
That aside, who the hell cares if your modded LT1 can beat up a 350Z (as you claim) when you stomp on it at a stoplight…putting aside how completely stupid street racing is; as soon as you start taking about a modded car any comparison is worthless.

Even if you assume the 350Z and Camaro are competing for the same market segment (I say they aren’t), any competition won’t be between the Fifth Generation Camaro and the 350Z; it would be the Fifth Generation Camaro and the NEXT Z (which will is likely to be pushing around a good deal less weight than the next Camaro and around 400HP).

He is right about one thing fellas...the next Nissan Z will progress just like always.....more power, lighter, and faster...

I actually cant wait to see what Nissan comes up with...should be good considering the 350Z's reputation...

I read throgh all nine pages of this thread and all I can say is :confused:

The 350Z is a completely different driving experience than the new camaro will be.

My last car was a twin turbo 320HP 3000GT VR-4 and I missed my 260 HP Mustang GT's V-8 the whole time I owned the Mitsu. I told myself I need a rwd v-8 again. The Mitsu was quicker, but the GT was more fun to drive.

The 350z is not a muscle car. I don't care how much hp or torque it has. I hope Chevy does not ignore the handling dept. with the Camaro, but I won't expect it to handle like the 350z or an evo.

Competition for the Camaro: Challenger and Mustang.

Competition for the 350z: 2009 Supra

I read throgh all nine pages of this thread and all I can say is :confused:

The 350Z is a completely different driving experience than the new camaro will be.

My last car was a twin turbo 320HP 3000GT VR-4 and I missed my 260 HP Mustang GT's V-8 the whole time I owned the Mitsu. I told myself I need a rwd v-8 again. The Mitsu was quicker, but the GT was more fun to drive.

The 350z is not a muscle car. I don't care how much hp or torque it has. I hope Chevy does not ignore the handling dept. with the Camaro, but I won't expect it to handle like the 350z or an evo.

Competition for the Camaro: Challenger and Mustang.

Competition for the 350z: 2009 Supra

That's exactly what I've thought about this thread as well. I will agree that the 350z is a very different driving experience from a muscle car, but I have to wonder about handling. My '99 TA WS6 isn't nearly as sure-footed as my wife's Z, but that's the live axle talking. The Z stays glued to the ground and feels unstoppable when cornering - lots and lots of fun. I've driven SRT8's and those suckers are BOATS compared to the TA (nevermind the Z), but the IRS makes the handling feel more stable in those cars - the SRT8's are just no fun though.

So to me the big question with the new Camaro is can it be as fun as the Z, and not be a boat like the SRT's? I'm thinking the Camaro has to sacrifice something in the handling department, but I dunno, with IRS and a 50/50 weight split could it be just as fun as a Z in terms of handling.......I can't wait to find out :)

my next daily driver will be a viper,


O Rly?