Will 2nd yr production be faster/better?

I am really excited about the 5th gen,
but I'm also worried about getting the 1st year production only to find out the 2nd year could be faster, or better optioned like it was done to the 04 GTO to the LS2 05 GTO.
Any news about this?

Pat

Won't happen.

i would bet that the first year or two they wont change anything performance wise. Will it be better, probably, because there are almost always some little quirks that they get worked out in the first years of a car. This might not be the case for the new camaro. But i am hopeing and betting on a "top dog" camaro after a year or two, so that would be a change in performance, but the run of the mill v8 camaros probably wont change too much

Won't happen.

I wouldn't be so sure.

I totally agree with Vlad on this one. :yes:

I'm just basing my opinion on the 4th Gen F-Body from '93-'95 and the 1st to 2nd year runs of the C4, C5, and C6 Corvettes.

Ok guys...we can guess untill the cows come home....but no one knows for sure as of right now...its all guess work right now....I say buy the first year if you can........

I wouldn't be so sure.

I totally agree with Vlad on this one. :yes:

I'm just basing my opinion on the 4th Gen F-Body from '93-'95 and the 1st to 2nd year runs of the C4, C5, and C6 Corvettes.

don't forget 98's...such a pita in so many ways :mad:

I won't buy the first year....of any car for that matter, hate to be negative about it, but to me its just not the smart thing to do. Not from a performance standpoint, thats an easy fix, its the little things.

Just my opinion, if any of you differ, hey feel free everything needs guinea pigs :D

ill get the first year. I think the second year will be faster, but i don't care. It wont be more than 50hp. If you want it to be a race car, put a damn cam in it, and wa la. its gona look the same, thats all i care about.

holla

If you look at most introductions of a new model and compare them to 2nd year versions--there are very rarely any engine/hp changes. Plus the car is being built at the best plant in NA for qaulity.

I am going to try to wait until the second year

I had posted this same concern on another board. I think I came to the conclusion that if the Camaro is released with the LS2 then I am certainly not buying it as that will be around the time they put that engine to sleep. As much as part of me says that 400 HP is plenty, the other part is always saying.... but there could always be more!

There are sometimes small tweaks between years. Often 1st year model run problems/oversights are discovered and corrected by 2nd/3rd year in production.

I used to work in the auto industry (probably will return soon) and saw it happen all the time.

I'm waiting until we know for sure (one way or the other) that something special is coming in year two or three to make my decision. ;)

I am really excited about the 5th gen,
but I'm also worried about getting the 1st year production only to find out the 2nd year could be faster, or better optioned like it was done to the 04 GTO to the LS2 05 GTO.
Any news about this?

Pat

If that's your concern, then never buy a new car.

Someone else came up with this concern once, and it's downright ridiculous. Cars are always going to get better and quicker barring something that restricts it, so worrying that the car the year after you buy is going to be faster is really pretty stupid. Especially when that 1st year car is still 2 years away.

2004 GTO LS1 owners aren't fretting over 2005 LS2 owners. I liked my 97 285 horse LT1 as much and probally even more than my 2002 340 horse LS1.

Again, worry about this is pretty lame. Buy a car that you like & enjoy it. If you're worring about the next year being quicker, or the year after, or the year after, then you shouldn't be buying a new car.

This is like worrying that your neighbor has a bigger sized "unit". :rolleyes: :lol:

I don't think it is a stupid concern at all. I would be mad if I bought a '04 GTO, why do you think you can get one w/ 4k for 20 grand?

I was disappointed when I just bought an '06 truck then like 3 weeks later they announced the 5yr 100k warranty on 07 "classics"

With that said I don't think this will happen with the camaro, Maybe the next year one will have 500hp but will cost a lot more I'm sure....

I can't come up with an example where the next year wasn't better than the year before. Sure little changes will take place based on comsumer input, but that happens every year. Every year Colorado has been better than the last ('07 got a bigger engine), but I'm still glad I got my '05 when I did.

As long as the Camaro you want doesn't have an engine that has been around for 7 years (like with the LS1 GTO) then you shouldn't have to worry about year two being better. You can bet that if the Camaro has an engine called LS3, it will still have that engine in the 2nd year.

I'd rather be the guy that bought the new '70, split bumper, LT-1, 4 speed, Z/28; than the guy who waited for the '81, LM1, TH350, Z/28.

I don't think it is a stupid concern at all. I would be mad if I bought a '04 GTO, why do you think you can get one w/ 4k for 20 grand?

I was disappointed when I just bought an '06 truck then like 3 weeks later they announced the 5yr 100k warranty on 07 "classics"

With that said I don't think this will happen with the camaro, Maybe the next year one will have 500hp but will cost a lot more I'm sure....


I agree completely. I can understand guionM's argument if the original post was refering to the difference in 3-5 years, but if i purchased one of the 1st year Camaros and they pull a stunt like with the GTO and the 2nd years have better styling and/or more power I will certainly not be a happy camper. I am not saying that I would constantly be in fear that something better will come out. I understand that with each new model they will make changes; however, this should not happen within one year of the car being introduced.

Not to mention, do you know what happens to the depreciation of a car when this happens? As mentioned above, look at the GTOS you can get a very slightly used 2004 for 20k or a slightly used 2005 for 28k.....

I also think the primary reason GM did this was becasue of the GTO's less than stellar sales, which, will not be a problem with the Camaro.

I was disappointed when I just bought an '06 truck then like 3 weeks later they announced the 5yr 100k warranty on 07 "classics"
I'm not sure that the warranty issus you mention is a good analogy. The new warranty is basicly just another form of rebate (unless you think the truck suddenly became more dependable/less prone to problems overnight) :)

That said, while you might not like it if you buy a new truck and two days later, GM announces a bigger rebate on the same model, that's not quite the same thing as if they make a major change to the vehicle itself do you think?

rumors put the new 6.xL in the vette for 2008. With the normal vette->camaro timing of 1 model year, and a 2009MY release, should debut with the 6.xL.

There will be the minor (but sometimes important) changes any car goes through the first year though, of course. But the engine should stick around.

casull, there is not an 8k difference in price between an 04 / 05 GTO. Try more like 3-4k difference, which is a pretty normal amount for a newer model year car regardless of content. Regardless, you're saying 04s are 'only' worth 20k as if that's so horrible. I bought my GTO 2 years ago, ate over $1000 in negative equity on my trade in and put down no cash at all, yet i haven't been upside down for a long time according to blue book. How many fbody owners weren't upside down 2 years after they bought their cars (unless they put a huge downpayment on it)? The GTO is holding it's value very well, including the 04s.

btw, if you're afraid something better will come out, as suggested maybe you should just avoid buying a new car. Buying a new car isn't about getting the most for your money, it's about getting exactly what you want when you want it. If i didn't like the GTO without the scoops or the ghey rear bumper treatment i wouldn't have bought my 04. 50hp is easy to make up with an LS1, i do wish i had the bigger brakes though, but not enough to regret the purchase, especially since the electric throttle in the LS2 cars is prone to failure, which offsets both the power and brakes in my mind.

Plus you can always trade your car back in for the new model. Maybe a 24 month lease is best if you always have to have the latest and greatest.

93 to 94 lt1 f-bods

map to maf
lower gearing in T-56 in 93
yellow print gauges in camaro in 93
replace chip in ecm to hand held downloading for reprograming +obd2

not saying either is better, but they sure are changes!
and in no way does the above have anything to do with a 5th gen.

well i will agree if the new camaro comes out with the LS2 i will not get it, because the next motor is very close behind. But i bet it will come out with the 6.3L

Wasn't the 2006 or could of been 2005 corvette base model just as powerfull as the previous year z06. If i would have bought a z06 and the next year base model was just as powerfull i would have been p!ssed.

Second year will run on water and make 1000HP ;)

Plus you can always trade your car back in for the new model. Maybe a 24 month lease is best if you always have to have the latest and greatest.

Now, this a good, constructive answer. When the camaro comes out, i plan on getting one, however, two years later there will be a convertable. I will absolutely need to get me that convertable.

Explain to me the ins and outs of leasing?

Wasn't the 2006 or could of been 2005 corvette base model just as powerfull as the previous year z06. If i would have bought a z06 and the next year base model was just as powerfull i would have been p!ssed.
Anybody who cared enough to know knew (or at least had a very good idea) of what was coming in the C6 so if they decided to buy a C5 they don't have any basis to compalin.

Besides, there are plenty of reasons to like the C5 even if it C5 Z06 ONLY had 405HP. :)

Like Robert said, it was no secret that the "normal" Corvette in 2005 (1st year for C6) would have the 400hp LS2. For comparison, the last year for the C5 (2004) you could either get a "normal" Corvette with a 350hp LS1 or a Z06 with a 405hp LS6.

Power isn't everything to everybody. My Dad got a fully optioned 2004 Corvette and was/is completely happy with it. For around $2000 more he could have gotten a low option 2004 Z06 or 2005 C6 IF he wanted to, but he didn't. He could care less about the 50 extra horsepower.

.......personally though, I would have forked out the extra cash for the Z06 :devil:

I guarantee the car will improve from MY 2009 to 2010 to 2011 and so an all cars do. But thats how cars get better and a reason to buy a new one.

I'll get the '09 Camaro and if the '11 (that looks wierd) is better I'll just trade in the '09 for that one.

I agree completely. I can understand guionM's argument if the original post was refering to the difference in 3-5 years, but if i purchased one of the 1st year Camaros and they pull a stunt like with the GTO and the 2nd years have better styling and/or more power I will certainly not be a happy camper. I am not saying that I would constantly be in fear that something better will come out. I understand that with each new model they will make changes; however, this should not happen within one year of the car being introduced.

Not to mention, do you know what happens to the depreciation of a car when this happens? As mentioned above, look at the GTOS you can get a very slightly used 2004 for 20k or a slightly used 2005 for 28k.....

I also think the primary reason GM did this was becasue of the GTO's less than stellar sales, which, will not be a problem with the Camaro.

Well, actually.....
GTO was scheduled for the LS2 and a different hood, tailpipes, and bumpers the following year from job 1. I recall both me and I believe MickeyT posted items on that here. Bob Lutz hinted at this the summer after the GTO came out (about halfway through the model run)

Dumb nieve me once brought up the subject early on with a certain future vehicles person at Motor Trend, who then said that wasn't happening and that Motor Trend was the best source of info because they are "well connected". The weasel 6 months later had a story about the changes I told him about.... 1 month before the '05 GTO came out. I guess the guy who drove them on the ships told him. :mad:

I brought up to Jim Hopson via a few e-mails on how Pontiac needed to get GTO scalping under control. While in his position he couldn't openly agree that was killing GTO's prospects, he was well aware that was a serious "concern". Once they did get pricing under control, GTO sold like wildfire.... over 2600 in one month (September 2004).....a record as I recall......and this was AFTER everyone knew the next year's model (due in December) was going to have the LS2 and hood scoops....! Another myth busted. :)


I'm going to challenge you to find people who are mad and feel cheated at their 2004 GTO purchase. Like everyone else on the planet on every other subject that involves hindsight, there's going to be that "I wish I waited...", but only people who didn't buy a GTO are making a big case about it. I haven't come across any yet. There's a couple right here in this community that seem to be happy.

2004 GTOs are going for 20 grand because....... they're 2004 GTOs!
We're in the 2007 model year. The car's 3-4 years old already.... it will be 2008 in a few months. There is hardly the $8K spread between the 2004 & 2005 as you are trying to indicate. The '05s is $26K while the '04s are about $2-4K cheaper. It's on autotrader.com. 94118 area code if you feel like checking.... I have.

I can get a '04 Mustang GT for $14K..... as you would say... "very slightly used", but then again, the 2005s were entirely different cars. A simple. engine upgrade (like the '05 GTO) isn't going to shoot the value of a car up as high as you are indicating. ;)


I wouldn't buy a 1st year car because of dealer scalping, and I prefer not to be a guinea pig when it comes to quality control and working out any bugs it may have, and maybe there's going to be a better deal on 'em. But those aside, no serious buyer is going to worry or be angry about the following year's horsepower numbers unless it's something like having a V8 available where it wasn't before, having a collectors version showing up (some new Mustang GT buyers are a little miffed at the sudden announcement of the 2008 Mustang Bullitt), and real fans tend to know if a ultra high horsepower of a car is coming the following year (Corvette fans knew about the Z06, Mustang fans knew about the GT500, and SRT tends to give public 12 month warnings).

Pick a car you like, buy it, & enjoy it.

If you're the type to lose sleep wondering if next year's car is going to have an extra 25 or 50 horsepower, then you probally shouldn't buy a new car. Buy used, and modify it instead.

or if you want the extra 25-50Hp just wait a year, cuz you'll get it;)

I am not going to lose any sleep over whether or not the car has an extra 20 hp, I bought an 02 Z28 and wasn't concerned about he SS extra goodies.
They can always be modded, so unless they have an extra 100 HP for the 2010 model, I'll buy an 09.

pat

I can't come up with an example where the next year wasn't better than the year before.
Camaro; '69 to '70.
Any muscle car, early 70's; they all got wimpy when the oil crisis and mandatory emission controls hit.

69 Z/28- 290 hp
70 1/2 Z/28- 360hp

Camaro; '69 to '70.
Any muscle car, early 70's; they all got wimpy when the oil crisis and mandatory emission controls hit.
Engine wise, I think you mean from from '70-'76, then power output started to go upwards again. Other features about the cars did change however...

Personally, I seem to see with a first year of production of a NEW body style, it seems to take them a year ofr so to work the bugs out.

I'd wait tillt he second year of production. I don't know about faster, but they will have the small problems fixed.

Personally, I seem to see with a first year of production of a NEW body style, it seems to take them a year ofr so to work the bugs out.

I'd wait tillt he second year of production. I don't know about faster, but they will have the small problems fixed.

Agreed. It's not nice, but it is reality.

Camaro; '69 to '70.
Any muscle car, early 70's; they all got wimpy when the oil crisis and mandatory emission controls hit.

Actually, that's false. Muscle car sales started to slide after '68, and really started to tank after the 1969 model year. They got wimpy because they didn't sell.

Like Steve pointed out, in the mid 70s, performance sold again, and engines got more horses again, hit a plateau in '79 and then with the Ford instigating things in '82 starting with the Mustang GT, took off again throughout the 80s, and has going through fits and spurts ever since. Even if cars are required to get 40 mpg, if the public wants high powered engines, automakers will find a way to make them.





The REAL hit against muscle cars was .......insurence! Unlike today where rates are determined largely by claims & age, when the insurence industry took on "muscle cars", they identified the cars by name. Get a base model GTO & your insurence was WAY higher than a loaded LeMans, even though the top Lemans engine was pretty much identical the as the base GTO. A 440ci Sattleite wasn't bad, but you'd get raped over insuring a 440ci Roadrunner.

The US banned lead in gasoline which dropped compression ratios. The emissions that really killed performance didn't come till the 1974 model year, which by that time muscle cars were already very, very dead. The fuel crisis also happened during the 1974 model year, so today people who either weren't around, were too young, or have selective memory tend to recite that emissions and fuel crisis killed the muscle car.

Detroit planned a new era of small performance cars in the 1970s. Pontiac's Ventura-based GTO came out in 1974 (planned well before the 70s energy crisis and skyrocketing fuel costs), Chevy had the Nova SS which became the Rallye Sport, Chrysler had the '77 Volare based Road Runner and Aspen based R/T (which actually accelerated harder than a base 400ci Trans Am!).




Some things you might not know:

1. The Grand Am started out as the new Pontiac GTO, and the SD455 was developed with this car in mind. Following trends away from muscle cars, Pontiac's new general manager (can't remember his name) moved the GTO to the new insurence friendly "small muscle" market and made the Grand Am as a car that emphasized handling over performance.

2. Performance was set to return as well. Ford returned the V8 to the Mustang II, though it wasn't part of the plan & Chevrolet came close to approving a more powerful V8 Monza but decided to keep Camaro as standard performance bearer.


3. Chrysler, always being the performance car company it was:
a) Kept multiple carburetors till 1972... long after other makers stopped.
b) Kept a killer version of their 440 till at least 1973.
c) Was the only maker to keep dual exhaust on it's performence cars (even Aspens had them.
d) Avoided catalitic converters for many years through engine what was at the time very advanced engine computer management.

i was/ am worried about the 2nd year being better which makes me want to wait, but how badass would it be to have it when it firsts come out.. you know. but im sure they will find problems with it and fix them come the next year.

I'm looking for 500HP. If they offer it the first year I'll buy it.