Lamenting the loss of the Firebird [PODCAST THREAD OF THE WEEK!]

Robert_Nashville
10-10-2006, 01:10 PM
Before anyone complains or says “not this again” let me say upfront that this post is absolutely NOT about bashing GM for not building the Firebird or to re-hash the reasons why GM is not building it.

I think everything that can be said about the “why” has been said many times and as a businessman; especially one connected to the industry, I fully understand GM’s decision - were I in a position to make it I probably would have made the same decision as the management of GM made.

What I did want to comment on is why those of us who love the Firebird feel a bit betrayed and, more importantly, why it saddens us to know our car now lives only as a part of automotive history. I want to comment on it because from what I’ve read here and from talking to people it seems to me that many of you just don’t understand why the Firebird is of that kind of importance to us.

Many of you who have come to the game only during the years of the fourth generation and, to a slightly lesser extend, during the third generation know and understand the “F-Body’ – you came at a time when the differences; both the quantifiable and the highly subjective were few; sometimes even downplayed by GM itself. You knew that if you replaced a few pieces of sheet metal and interior pieces; you wouldn’t know if you were in a Trans AM or a Z/28. At the risk of oversimplifying, I suspect many of you have a hard time understanding how anybody would decide not to buy a fifth generation Camaro just because there is no Firebird…for you, it just isn’t that important an issue.

However, for those of us with a bit more grey hair (assuming we still have hair)…for those who remember the first and second generation cars because we were there and we owned them; we aren’t “F-Body” guys nearly as much as we are Camaro or Firebird guys.

I remember a time when THE car to have was the Trans Am and as good and as similar as it might be, a Z/28 was simply not a Trans Am.

I remember a time when Pontiac guys were Pontiac guys and Pontiac guys just didn’t buy Chevy’s. Yes, as you got older you might move up to Buick and then, when you really arrived, Cadillac but the rivalry between Chevy, Pontiac (and to a lesser extent, Olds and Buick) was real and substantive. The rivalry between Camaro and Firebird was just as significant as between Camaro or Firebird and Mustang.

I remember a time when if you bought a Pontiac you got a Pontiac engine and if you bought a Chevy you got a Chevy engine…granted; the similarities between the various GM brands far exceeded the differences but there were real differences (as well as some differences that were primarily marketing issues) but the differences that did exist were important to us when we went to buy a new car.

I’ve always respected the Camaro but I bought Firebirds and I never even considered buying a Camaro. Yes, I did buy a 2000 Z/28 but the only reason I bought it over the Firebird was simply a matter of looks (and because there really was no significant difference between the two cars by that point other than looks).

The Firebirds were the cars I was passionate about; in many respects it was the car that made me love cars so its passing is significant to me and to others like me.

Should those of us who are older "live in the past"? Of course not. But many of us love the Firebird in a way that many of you will not understand and its disappearance from GM’s lineup hurts deeply…while you may not share or understand our feelings about that at least try to understand that we have them and don’t deride those who, for whatever reason, can’t make the transition to a “Camaro only” world.

May the Camaro live long and prosper; but I’ll always miss my Firebird!

JasonD
10-10-2006, 01:15 PM
I agree.

The following is not a "read between the lines" message, but one thing I have learned is "never say never". Things can and do change. In this business, I no longer expect that when something is gone that it will never come back. You just never know.

Chris 96 WS6
10-10-2006, 01:22 PM
Nice post Bob.

Bert02SS
10-10-2006, 01:23 PM
Bravo, Mr. Nashville. I had a genuine love for my '85 Trans Am, which was my first new muscle car. Much less so for the succeeding Camaros.

Robert_Nashville
10-10-2006, 01:27 PM
I agree.

The following is not a "read between the lines" message, but one thing I have learned is "never say never". Things can and do change. In this business, I no longer expect that when something is gone that it will never come back. You just never know.
Well as the saying goes, hope springs eternal!

Shellhead
10-10-2006, 01:43 PM
Well said, Bob! I totally agree!

As much as I'm looking forward to the new Camaro (and it's extreme), I will be very sad to part with my '99 TA WS6. Having wanted a TA since I was 7 years old, owning that car has been a long held dream of mine. And while I appreciate the love of heritage that people have, I'm not the sort of person to keep an old car when the next generation is available....so for me the new car will definitely be a parting. It's nice to know others feel these things as deeply.

Jason96T/A
10-10-2006, 01:47 PM
Robert_Nashville, Thank you for this. :)

Capn Pete
10-10-2006, 02:16 PM
My parents had a '77 Formula when I was ~3 - 6 years old. It was the first F-body I was ever in. I still remember that car as if it was in our driveway yesterday (even though it's nearly 2 decades since it's been gone!:eek: ... damn, that's starting to show my age too ;) :p). I've always loved the looks of Firebirds over the years. They've always been (IMO) more "unique", and looked like nothing else on the road (except the early years when they looked a lot like GTO's?:shrug: ).

The thing is, my Dad has always been a Chevy guy (even our Formula had a 350 SBC in it because the original Pontiac 301 died :D) so I've grown up leaning to the Chevy side of things, hence, become a Camaro guy :). But the Firebird was a great car and has a huge following all its own ... I'm sad to see it gone too :(. GM does enough inter-brand competing, it's almost a wonder they can't keep the "tradition" going?! :rolleyes:

CLEAN
10-10-2006, 03:16 PM
As a two time Firebird owner, I support your opinion 100%. I dearly miss my '01 Formula :(

Hoodshaker
10-10-2006, 03:34 PM
Very well said. :thumb:

Plague
10-10-2006, 04:00 PM
First car I purchased for me with my own money was my '02 Formula. I am sad that I won't be able to get an '09 formula or trans am, especially with some of the chops of the Camaro that I have seen. But, if they ever decide to bring it back as a Camaro cousin, I might just go get one. Till then, saving the money for the '09 Camaro.

Your post was very nicely put.

Z284ever
10-10-2006, 05:36 PM
Good post. A far as I'm concerned, Firebird died after 1981. Sorry if that offends anyone.

jg95z28
10-10-2006, 05:48 PM
Good post. A far as I'm concerned, Firebird died after 1981. Sorry if that offends anyone.
Ditto. Add to that, I remember when Firebird's had Oldsmobile engines. But that's besides the point.

Pontiac needs an image vehicle. Whether you call that vehicle Firebird, Trans Am, GTO or ??? it needs to be a tire shredding, kick ass, corner carving, snarling beast. That's what Pontiac stood for at one time. That's what Pontiac will always need to hold up to in my mind. The question is which direction should GM take with this Pontiac Halo-car? Should it be the next gen GTO? A Camaro sister-car with AWD? A Corvette sister-car? Or something completely different to compete with the BMW, Porsche and Skyline GT-R's of the world?

Pontiac definitely needs such a vehicle. I guess the rest is up to GM and the strength of the Pontiac Performance enthusiasts' voice.

Robert_Nashville
10-10-2006, 06:06 PM
Ditto. I remember when Firebird's had Oldsmobile engines.
Some did (of course it depends on the year you were talking about). Some '78s and '79s still had a Pontiac 400CID engine available (only with the four speed manual) while most got the 403 Olds engine.

It was around that same time frame or just before that, if I remember correctly, there was one or more lawsuits against GM for because of, for example, a Buick buyer getting a Chevrolet engine, etc...I think there is still some "verbage" on the window sticker to this day to explain that if you buy a Cadillac you are getting a "GM" enging but not a "Cadillac" engine.

Z284ever
10-10-2006, 10:19 PM
Pontiac needs an image vehicle.

My personal opinion - Pontiac will take a new direction performance wise.

Dave89IROC
10-11-2006, 06:43 AM
well said

dream '94 Z28
10-11-2006, 02:44 PM
Pontiac needs an image vehicle. Whether you call that vehicle Firebird, Trans Am, GTO or ??? it needs to be a tire shredding, kick ass, corner carving, snarling beast.

Solstice GXP? :think:

HAZ-Matt
10-11-2006, 03:50 PM
I dunno. We will have to see what the future holds for GTO and Solstice. But as it stands, while both are great cars in their category, they don't really seem quite exciting enough to be halo cars.

toneloc12345
10-11-2006, 06:15 PM
Too bad like every vehicle gm makes are dublicates of eachother and overlap... Cobalt=G5, Solstice=sky, all the freaking mini vans, equinox=torrent, GMC=Chevy=Cadillac trucks!!! I mean come on!

The only camaros I would prefer over the firebirds are 67-69 and the 3rd gen IROC's. 4th gen WS6's are one of the best looking cars ever IMO

jg95z28
10-12-2006, 10:52 AM
Solstice GXP? :think:

No. However I think if GM were to offer a fixed coupe version of the Solstice that was powered by the Z06's LS7 and it came with an upgraded suspension, that would make for a nice little halo car. :D

However I'd give it a different name. ;)

FirebatLT1
10-12-2006, 11:38 AM
I'd like to see a modern day Pontiac Banshee(like the first banshee) - 2 seater, RWD, V8, futuristic(not retro) and styled similar to the firebird(not 1st gen). Not going to happen but it would be cool. Basically on the level of dodge viper, ford gt, corvette.

Z284ever
10-12-2006, 11:48 AM
I think we may want to shed some of our Pontiac, pre-concieved notions. By circa '10/'11 Pontiac will have a whole new line of what will be considered exciting products. Perhaps not exciting to many on this board - but exciting to a whole new market of Pontiac enthusiasts.

Diognes56
10-12-2006, 12:14 PM
I loved the 1st, 2nd, and 4th gen Firebirds (Sorry third gen guys). The Firebird will be missed :( .

David

jg95z28
10-12-2006, 03:43 PM
I'd like to see a modern day Pontiac Banshee(like the first banshee) - 2 seater, RWD, V8, futuristic(not retro) and styled similar to the firebird(not 1st gen). You do realise the original Banshee had a straight six? :D

FirebatLT1
10-12-2006, 04:25 PM
You do realise the original Banshee had a straight six? :D
nope :eek:

cjmatt
10-12-2006, 09:56 PM
Im sure that theyll come out with a firebird if the camaro is successful...look at the trailblazer, it succeeded and they then introduced 24 variants, im willing to bet that by 2011 there will prob be a saab f-body hahaha

STEEL
10-12-2006, 11:23 PM
Well, i was looking at firebirds today. The old ones are most deffinitely buititull cars. Oh my god. They just scream "I will rip you apart and eat your soul!"

I think that someone needs to make a Firebird body kit. It needs the shark fins and the grill for sure... That car would be kicking.

ChrisFrez
10-13-2006, 09:54 AM
We have made this our Thread of the Week on this weeks episode of the CamaroZ28.COM Podcast! :)

http://web.camaross.com/forums/showthread.php?t=478276

Vette Pro
10-14-2006, 11:43 AM
I sounds like more of the same old story people have been posting forever on here about how much they love ther firebird and how GM should build it. It really is old news and it is time to move on.

JasonD
10-14-2006, 12:04 PM
Time to re-read the first post.

Blacksmith
10-14-2006, 06:22 PM
i don't know about a new Firebird since GM is trying to stick with the GTO, but i read somewhere that by 2010 all Pontiacs will be rear-wheel drive! so Maybe in that push we'll have a Trans Am, a GTO and whatever else the muscle car masses demand:D