5thgen z28 could beat all mustangs

It's just my opinion but if the 5thgen z28 has an ls2 then wouldnt that be able to beat a mustang gt500

it wont have an ls2...........

mkay.

prob have the 6.2 motor...

It's just my opinion but if the 5thgen z28 has an ls2 then wouldnt that be able to beat a mustang gt500
How do you figure that?

gt500 does 0-60 in 4.6 and 1/4 mile at 12.9
z51 corvette 0-60 in 4.2 1/4 mile at 12.7

camaro could probrably do 0-60 in 4.5 and 1/4 mile at 12.8

without dohc 4 valves a cylinder or a supercharger

I'd rather have it be faster than the Mustang, but not the Cobra, and sell more (or nearly match stang #s), than nearly any other scenario of sales/performance. But I don't think that we will have a problem being faster and stronger than the Mustang GT's.

I think I can handle reading or hearing, "yea, well the Cobra will kill that Camaro", if I can reply, "Yea, but that's just a Mustang, mine's a CAMARO :cool: ".

gt500 does 0-60 in 4.6 and 1/4 mile at 12.9
z51 corvette 0-60 in 4.2 1/4 mile at 12.7

camaro could probrably do 0-60 in 4.5 and 1/4 mile at 12.8

You're comparing a Vette to a Camaro. One is alot less heavier. The Camaro won't have that close of performance figures to a Vette, even w/ the same engine. There're many variables.

A Camaro with that kind of power would be in the 13s like the GTOs are.

:lol:

It's just my opinion but if the 5thgen z28 has an ls2 then wouldnt that be able to beat a mustang gt500

gt500 does 0-60 in 4.6 and 1/4 mile at 12.9
z51 corvette 0-60 in 4.2 1/4 mile at 12.7

camaro could probrably do 0-60 in 4.5 and 1/4 mile at 12.8

without dohc 4 valves a cylinder or a supercharger

Pretty silly post there 327Camaro. Here's why I say that.

1. First off, Corvette is a 3200 pound 2 passenger purpose built sports car. GM did everything in it's power to take off weight. At Corvette's $42K+ price tag, GM has some pricing room to do that.

2. Mustang, like the Camaro, is going to be a budget sports coupe that's based on a sedan. There's going to be compromises with Camaro just like there was on Mustang. If you expect a 5th gen to come in weighing less than the average 3525+ pounds of the 4th gen, you better brace yourself.

3. To say a 400 horse engine in a Corvette is a barometer of how it will perform in a Camaro is like using a Ford GT to predict how 500 horses will act in a Mustang.

4. Finally, your projected times. Why does one tenth of a second difference warranted a whole new thread? Next question is how did you come up with those numbers? What rear axle ratio are you figuring on having? What transmission ratios did you base this on?

Do you believe that the GT500 isn't going to pick up additional horsepower over the next 2 years? The GT500's engine is capable of over 600 warranty certified horsepower with no internal changes.... read that as a reprogramed ECM and smaller pulley. Ford built this into the engine so they can make quick no cost power increases.

Also, your little dig about 4 cams and a supercharger is silly as well. Cobalt uses a supercharger. Cadillac uses 4 valves per. A upcoming Corvette is going to use a supercharger. Who cares, as long as it works. Don't EVEN get started on cost differences till you look up the price on a 500 horse LS7 engine.



Not flaming you, but I'm guessing this was one of those impulsive posts people make when they just sign up on a new website and want to quickly establish themselves as "part of the group" or "one of the guys" . Nothing wrong with that, but just be more realistic. Otherwise, you'll come across as being ameturish.

If the estimates came down to a few tenths, or a easy half second, or at least was something worth noting, then I can see starting a new thread. But doing this for a difference that can boil down to tire pressue, and even then is a not throughly concieved guess...... :no:

GT500 DOHC 4valves per cylinder supercharger at 8.5 psi
bore x stroke 3.55 x 4.15 500hp

Ls2 OHV 2valves per cylinder Bore x stroke 4.0 x 3.62 400hp

ls2 is going to rev faster and not have the lag of the supercharger

GT500 DOHC 4valves per cylinder supercharger at 8.5 psi
bore x stroke 3.55 x 4.15 500hp

Ls2 OHV 2valves per cylinder Bore x stroke 4.0 x 3.62 400hp

ls2 is going to rev faster and not have the lag of the supercharger

Again, think before you post, or you're opening yourself up to be.... well.... not taken seriously.

1. Superchargers have no lag! You are thinking turbochargers. Big difference.

2. Bore and stroke isn't the issue here. A 454 Chevy engine has manhole sized bores, and you can fit midgets in the stroke measurements. Yet the smaller LS1 puts out more horsepower.

3. As far as revving, OHC engines have a tendancy to rev faster and higher than pushrods, so again, not a well thought out position. OHC engines do however, tend to need to rev higher to get the torque an OHV engine makes down low, where it feels stronger off the line.

superchargers lag in the high rpm's and the 4.15 stroke isn't going to help it

Silly thread but what the heck. Being as we are 2 years off and comparing the HP and performance of a car that isn't out yet with ones that are and very current is fun.

If I had to gamble on the performance of the 5th Gen Camaro I'd place it stright line as like the 06 GTO and CTS-V or a few ticks faster. This car won't be light but we just hope it will have the power to compensate. Will it beat the Mustang GT? Well I think that would be certainly possible. Beat the GT500 well probably not. But will any variant of the Camaro be that expensive probably not.
One thing is for sure GM will give the Camaro plenty of power and performance.

Until we find out OFFICIALLY what engine(s) the Camaro will be getting, this is a redundant argument :rolleyes:. I've been all over the "LS7" or something like it "427" engine for the top-dog Camaro. Will we get it? :shrug: Time will tell. If so, yeah, that'd walk all over the GT500 ..... hell, according to early results, they're hard pressed to get very far into the 12's, so that's not far out of bolt-on LS1 territory;).

Back to reality though ..... we know NOTHING about engines yet. We know VERY LITTLE about the weight. We do know the weight of the GT500, and can only hope and pray that the Camaro comes in well below that ~3900 lb mark :confused:. And based on less weight, obviously it can be as fast or faster with less power, but to speculate on something with so many unknown variables? :shrug:

Meh, whatever :rolleyes:.

superchargers lag in the high rpm's and the 4.15 stroke isn't going to help it

Yeah, blown mod motors sure are dogs :confused:

Why do you keep going back to the LS2, its not even an option. When the camaro comes out in 08:D the LS2 will be 4 years old, and about time for a new engine, in our new camaro. IMO

superchargers lag in the high rpm's and the 4.15 stroke isn't going to help it

How exactly does a roots style blower lag in the upper rpm's? Maybe you are thinking of belt slip. As for your LS2 vs. 5.4 SC debate, I don't see a new Camaro with an LS2 beating a GT500. I was at Bowling Green last weekend and watched a GT500 with the "pulley and a tune" combo run consistent 10.90's. You're just not going to get that out of an LS2 unless you do some major mods to it. As Guion stated, those Ford SC motors still have a lot of reliable power on tap and I really hope that GM takes the power adder route. Otherwise its going to make it real expensive to keep up at the track.

superchargers lag in the high rpm's and the 4.15 stroke isn't going to help it

OK, at least I gave you 2 warnings before I moved you over to the "Doesn't know what they're talking about" group. :no:

Superchargers don't have lag. None.

I like how you tried to save face by saying they lag in high RPMs, which (for lack of a better description) is a pretty a**clown statement. Lag refers to the time between when you press the pedal and when you feel the reaction. Superchargers (the ones we're talking about) are bolted to the top of the engine. The GT500 has a water to water intercooler sandwiched in between that few inches between the bottom of the blower and the intake valves. You'd get more lag from the cushing of your right show. The intercooler on My SCs sends air on a detour to the IC, and it doesn't lag, so it's pretty safe to bet your newborn the GT500 (as well as the former Cobra and Lightning) have even less than zilch.

As far as saving face, just cut your losses now. You probally got turbocharger and supercharger mixed up. It happens. I've done it. No big deal. But talking about high RPM lag in on an SC isn't going anywhere. Press the pedal at redline in a supercharged car or a normally aspirated car, and you aren't gonna get much more of anything.


Also, what's the issue (or obsession) with stroke size?? Is this a misplaced suubsitution for manhood insecurities? An obcession with the word "stroke"? :lol:

The Shelby GT500 puts down a godawful amount of horsepower. Doesn't matter if it's overhead cams, superchargers, or a bunch of really really drugged up hamsters on a wheel, 500 horsepower is still 500 horsepower. A Camaro LS2 putting out 405 horsepower isn't going to run with it, no matter how much fuzzy logic you program into your computer, or how many extra beads you try to cram on your abacus.

Bottom line is that we don't know the horses the 2009 Camaro will be running, the weight it'll have, the gearing it will have, and finally, we don't know what the GT500 will be running by then. But it's safe to say that whatever Chevy has that will compete with the GT500, it will be above the current (or should I say past since we're talking about a car that's been dead for almost 5 years) Z28 or Camaro SS in price & position..... as it should be.

superchargers lag in the high rpm's and the 4.15 stroke isn't going to help it

Although I've never driven a newer supercharged car, my 6-71 blown BBC had no lag...and that's old technology.
I take it you've never been fortunate enough to enjoy a supercharged motor. Nope...no lag...just a BIG smile on your face after you stomp on it.:D

:lol:

I completely agree. 327camaro, we appreciate that nyou are trying to become a functioning part of the board, but next time think before you say, and at least know what you are talking about a little bit before opening your mouth. the only time a supercharger lags is when the belt tears apart. then it is gone. turbochargers barely lag with today's technology. i think that the ls2 will be outdated by 2009, or at least not available for the camaro, because technology changes so fast, plus everyone knows what is going on at GM, so mabye they will try to cut costs and make one motor for the Camaro, Base Corvette, GTO, Yukon Denali, Escalade, etc. because if they can make one engine for all of those cars and eliminate a few motors and free up some assembly line clutter with all of those engines, won't it be worth their while? I think so, but i am getting off subject. No one knows what is in store for the camaro, because we can't tell the future. what we can tell you is that the 2009 camaro is going to be the best ever, and it most likely will keep up with the mustang, otherwise, whats the point?

I don't expect to see the LS7 in the top dawg Camaro, as I think we've already seen indications that GM will be phasing out the LS7 in the Corvette by 2008. However I do expect a smaller displacement supercharged LSx derivative (with equal or more hp to the current LS7) to replace it in the Corvette.

Will we see it in a top dawg Camaro? Only time will tell. However if GM expects to build a Camaro to beat the GT500, they'll need to step up to the plate as I don't see Ford sitting complacent with the GT500's current power numbers while waiting for Challenger and Camaro to appear on the scene.

:lol: :lol: :lol:

Don't rule out what horsepower increases may lie within the base GT Mustang engine, either. There's no guarantee that it will remain at 300 hp until the Camaro comes out

Why do you keep going back to the LS2, its not even an option. When the camaro comes out in 08:D the LS2 will be 4 years old, and about time for a new engine, in our new camaro. IMO

The Camaro will be getting the LS3 6.2L VVT, DOD rated at 400hp.

The base Corvette will get the motor in 08, one year before the Camaro, but it will be rated at 425hp in the Vette. ;)

I don't expect to see the LS7 in the top dawg Camaro, as I think we've already seen indications that GM will be phasing out the LS7 in the Corvette by 2008. However I do expect a smaller displacement supercharged LSx derivative (with equal or more hp to the current LS7) to replace it in the Corvette.

Will we see it in a top dawg Camaro? Only time will tell. However if GM expects to build a Camaro to beat the GT500, they'll need to step up to the plate as I don't see Ford sitting complacent with the GT500's current power numbers while waiting for Challenger and Camaro to appear on the scene.

The ZO6 will keep the LS7 until 2011, but the Corvette SS/Stingray/Blue Devil will get it's own engine the LS9, a supercharged 6.0L or 6.2L making 600-650hp.

As for the Camaro beating the GT500 even the LS3 won't be enough. The Camaro would need a LS7 and I don't see that happening, so the Camaro would be a competitor more to the Mustang GT and not the GT-500. :(

The Camaro will be getting the LS3 6.2L VVT,DOD rated at 400hp.

The base Corvette will get the motor in 08, one year before the Camaro, but it will be rated at 425hp in the Vette. :D



The ZO6 will keep the LS7 untill 2011, but the Corvette SS/Stingray/Blue Devil will get a supercharged version of the LS3 called the LS9.

As for the Camaro beating the GT500 even the LS3 won't be enough. The Camaro would need a LS7 and I don't see that happening, so the Camaro would be a competitor more to the Mustang GT and not the GT-500. :(
I thought the Camaro was only getting Ecotec variants? :shrug:

;)

superchargers lag in the high rpm's

If by "high RPMs" you mean "15,000 RPM", and by "lag" you mean "explode", well then I agree.

:p

lol at this entire thread. good one gm

Don't rule out what horsepower increases may lie within the base GT Mustang engine, either. There's no guarantee that it will remain at 300 hp until the Camaro comes out

Actually there is pretty much a guarantee it wont.

I was at Bowling Green last weekend and watched a GT500 with the "pulley and a tune" combo run consistent 10.90's. You're just not going to get that out of an LS2 unless you do some major mods to it. As Guion stated, those Ford SC motors still have a lot of reliable power on tap and I really hope that GM takes the power adder route. Otherwise its going to make it real expensive to keep up at the track.

10.90's...with just a pulley and tune? :rolleyes: not saying you didn't see it, but that pig had a lot more into it than that.

As much as I hate to say it the car was pretty much stock. It did however have a set of DR's on some Falken wheels and a cat back but there were no suspension mods or anything else. No spray either. I was amazed at how well it ran (which sucks because I really don't like the new Mustangs at all).
This is why GM needs to step up to power adders on their V8's. The SC 4.6's will dyno low 500's at the tires with nothing more than the pulley, tune, ported Eaton combo. The SC 5.4 are getting that with nothing more than a tune and a CAI. For $500 in mods you aren't getting those numbers from a N/A motor.

This is why GM needs to step up to power adders on their V8's.

I think it’s pretty well known that we have nothing to worry about in this department as GM fans. ;)

Don't rule out what horsepower increases may lie within the base GT Mustang engine, either. There's no guarantee that it will remain at 300 hp until the Camaro comes out

3 years and only 70 posts?!

Talk about lurking! :lol:


10.90's...with just a pulley and tune? :rolleyes: not saying you didn't see it, but that pig had a lot more into it than that.

11 seconds with just a pulley actually does sound about right.

A cat back system really wouldn't do much, so a tune would easily bring in below that.

Superchargers are at their peak in cool or cold weather, so I wouldn't be surprised to start seeing consistant times below 10.9 soon.

Somebody kill me now...

Why oh why did I click on this thread, LOL.

...
As for the Camaro beating the GT500 even the LS3 won't be enough. The Camaro would need a LS7 and I don't see that happening, so the Camaro would be a competitor more to the Mustang GT and not the GT-500. :(
Oh dear. If this is true...oh dear.
I fully plan on buying the top dog Camaro.
But only if it outperforms Mustangs.
Including the GT500
If not......
Weeelllllll.....
Those 'stangs don't look THAT bad....

As for the Camaro beating the GT500 even the LS3 won't be enough. The Camaro would need a LS7 and I don't see that happening, so the Camaro would be a competitor more to the Mustang GT and not the GT-500. :(
Who said anything about the LS3 being the top Camaro motor? :D

The top Camaro motor may not be the LS7, but it may have just as much (if not more) horsepower. ;)

3 years and only 70 posts?!

Talk about lurking! :lol:




11 seconds with just a pulley actually does sound about right.

A cat back system really wouldn't do much, so a tune would easily bring in below that.

Superchargers are at their peak in cool or cold weather, so I wouldn't be surprised to start seeing consistant times below 10.9 soon.

http://www.svtperformance.com/forums/showthread.php?t=325785

Why is the evolution car running 10.40's with every single mod in the book, including lots of weight reduction...yet the said car above is only a 1/2 second slower with a fraction of work done.
The Shelby is badass, no doubt about it...but that car was not even close to stock! I really don't know where to go from here, this thread is outrageously comical.

No one has a gun to our heads, buy whatever you want!

This thread/ thread starter gave me an idea. To post a new thread in this forum, the poster should have to answer a quiz of sorts, determining the relevance of the posters information. This guy wouldnt have passed, and all of us would have 15 minutes of our lives back.

The GT500s aren't coming anywhere near 10.9s w/ a pulley, tune, and catback on DRs. Maybe an 11.90... They're really not much better ET wise than the 03/04 Cobras. No doubt you could dip into the 10s without that much in the way of mods, (the Evolution GT500 running mid 10s has full suspension on full slicks (1.45ish 60 foots), gears, ported blower, CAI, headers, tune, race gas and some weight reduction last time I checked, also the runs are at an excellent track w/ great weather). That is really nothing too serious for mods, but a simple pulley, tune, and catback isn't going to touch that in a 4000 lb car w/ stock gearing and suspension...

I think a 425-430ish hp LS3 level 5thgen SS or Z28 will compete pretty favorably w/ the stock GT500 assuming weight is around 3600lbs or less. No doubt w/ basic mods the GT500 will take off, but stock vs stock should be a good comparo... If the LS3 is more powerful than that by a bit or is not the top engine then the GT500 is going to get worked stock vs stock IMO...

but a simple pulley, tune, and catback isn't going to touch that in a 4000 lb car w/ stock gearing and suspension...


100% truth

Until we find out OFFICIALLY what engine(s) the Camaro will be getting, this is a redundant argument :rolleyes:. I've been all over the "LS7" or something like it "427" engine for the top-dog Camaro. Will we get it? :shrug: Time will tell. If so, yeah, that'd walk all over the GT500 ..... hell, according to early results, they're hard pressed to get very far into the 12's, so that's not far out of bolt-on LS1 territory;).

Back to reality though ..... we know NOTHING about engines yet. We know VERY LITTLE about the weight. We do know the weight of the GT500, and can only hope and pray that the Camaro comes in well below that ~3900 lb mark :confused:. And based on less weight, obviously it can be as fast or faster with less power, but to speculate on something with so many unknown variables? :shrug:

Meh, whatever :rolleyes:.


I agree, it depends on what the new z/28 will weigh in at compared to the mustang. its possible

Until we find out OFFICIALLY what engine(s) the Camaro will be getting, this is a redundant argument :rolleyes:. I've been all over the "LS7" or something like it "427" engine for the top-dog Camaro. Will we get it? :shrug: Time will tell. If so, yeah, that'd walk all over the GT500 ..... hell, according to early results, they're hard pressed to get very far into the 12's, so that's not far out of bolt-on LS1 territory;).

Back to reality though ..... we know NOTHING about engines yet. We know VERY LITTLE about the weight. We do know the weight of the GT500, and can only hope and pray that the Camaro comes in well below that ~3900 lb mark :confused:. And based on less weight, obviously it can be as fast or faster with less power, but to speculate on something with so many unknown variables? :shrug:

Meh, whatever :rolleyes:.

...and don't forget about CD. One of the reasons a Vette can hang with a Mustang of much greater horsepower is because of aerodynamics. Weight is definately a big deal, but how well the car can cut a hole through the air is a big factor too.

From the looks of it, the new Camaro doesn't seem to be anything special in the aerodynamics arena. Therefore if the Camaro comes in at a 100-200 pounds lighter than the GT500, I wouldn't expect much advantage based on weight.

I'd take a 400hp Z/28 or SS and with a six speed and be plenty happy, no matter what the Mustang GT has.

I'd take a 400hp Z/28 or SS and with a six speed and be plenty happy, no matter what the Mustang GT has.

what he said, but the more the better, as long as IIII can afford it ;)

I'd take a 400hp Z/28 or SS and with a six speed and be plenty happy, no matter what the Mustang GT has.


i aslo agree with that i would be happy with anything over 350hp

i aslo agree with that i would be happy with anything over 350hp

I won't be.

I want a 500+ hp beast. Read Charlie's post on what it felt like driving an original Z/28 compared to other cars from the same period. That's the feeling I want in my new Camaro. :D

I won't be.

I want a 500+ hp beast. Read Charlie's post on what it felt like driving an original Z/28 compared to other cars from the same period. That's the feeling I want in my new Camaro. :D
but that had 290hp.;)

but that had 290hp.;)
Yeah, "rated", just like LS1's only have ~310 HP, right? ;) (at the wheels!:D)

http://www.svtperformance.com/forums/showthread.php?t=325785

Why is the evolution car running 10.40's with every single mod in the book, including lots of weight reduction...yet the said car above is only a 1/2 second slower with a fraction of work done.
The Shelby is badass, no doubt about it...but that car was not even close to stock! I really don't know where to go from here, this thread is outrageously comical.

No one has a gun to our heads, buy whatever you want!

The Evolution car with nothing more than gears, pulley and exhaust went 10.99 @ 128. Current setup has a lot more than a 10.40 in it. What I find comical is that there are people out there who find it impossible that a car other than their GM car can run a good number. This is what several of my friends (all of whom are on SVTperformance.com) as well as myself witnessed. I bet you'd be real quick to jump on the bandwagon if the 5th gen posted similar numbers with similar mods. Whatever lets you sleep at night.

The Evolution car with nothing more than gears, pulley and exhaust went 10.99 @ 128. Current setup has a lot more than a 10.40 in it. What I find comical is that there are people out there who find it impossible that a car other than their GM car can run a good number. This is what several of my friends (all of whom are on SVTperformance.com) as well as myself witnessed. I bet you'd be real quick to jump on the bandwagon if the 5th gen posted similar numbers with similar mods. Whatever lets you sleep at night.
I'm not so sure it's "nothing more than gears, pulley and exhaust" :rolleyes:. I remember reading the early report on the Evolution GT500, and at the time they already had ~$2500 worth of mods into it (suspension, exhaust, gears, tuning), and it was running 11.80! :shrug: Even some of the Mustang guys were disappointed with it. That is, those who expressed disappointment and weren't BANNED from the SVT forums :rolleyes:.

Yes, the GT500 is fast. No, it's not as "cheap" and "simple" as one might expect for an already ~500 HP car to run the times that it has.

Yes, we'll be equally critical if the 5th-gen can't perform like we expect/hope it will. No, we (most?) won't be surprised if it's an "under-performer". I'm sure the weight is a big factor when it comes to this performance (for the current GT500 and the future Camaro).

In all honesty, I think the '03/'04 Cobra is probably the better "bang-for-the-buck" compared to the GT500?? :shrug: (performance vs. cost)

I'm not so sure it's "nothing more than gears, pulley and exhaust" :rolleyes:

You're right. Video of the 10.99 run also lists ported blower, unspecified suspension mods, custom x pipe, custom driveshaft, lightweight brakes & wheels, drag radials, and tuning. Not exactly a laundry list of mods but it's sure as hell more than gears, pulley and exhaust. From what I understand the car now has custom LT's and skicks/skinnies as well. I'd ask why it's so difficult to get a straight answer on what all has been done to this car but according to 95firehawk and the homers on svtperformance.com that would make me a hater and/or a gm nutswinger.

I think we all know that the base vette motor will find its was into the Camaro....LS3 as I understand. There is gonna be a motor in that car with 400+ hp. I dont think many would argue against it. The more relevant question that we still have no idea on is the cars production weight. If its light enough, the LS3 could be enough. How awesome would it be if the $30k 3550lb Z28 beat the 45k Cobra.

Ive also kept up with the evolution performance car, and have noticed a glaring flaw that goes unmentioned. The car made fantastic power under only the best of conditions. The first dyno they ran was when the car came in from a drive and it was somewhere in the neighborhood of 40-50rwhp under its peak. After cooloff and icing the blower they ran it again, and used those numbers as their baseline. In real world conditions, that motor gets winded quick, and drops in power. Screw road racing that pig. The Camaro will smack the Mustang on the course.

Yeah, "rated", just like LS1's only have ~310 HP, right? ;) (at the wheels!:D)
still not the 500hp beast he thinks the new one should be.

I won't be.

I want a 500+ hp beast. Read Charlie's post on what it felt like driving an original Z/28 compared to other cars from the same period. That's the feeling I want in my new Camaro. :D

Well, the car felt special for alot of reasons, and it wasn't just for it's power. I drove much more powerful cars last weekend, which barely left me with an afterthought. This car was special for the total package. The looks, the style, the feel, the aura of nastiness that an early Z/28 has.....I don't know, in the other thread I try to put my finger on it....but it's hard to quantify. Whatever that "thing" is...it had it.

Earlier that day, I drove a '69 Camaro COPO replica with a 427 and a '69 Camaro SS with a 375/396, (both with auto). Both of those cars were incredible. Both of those cars undoubtedly had more power than the Z/28. But neither of those cars made me feel the same "magic" that the Z/28 did.

Earlier that day, I drove a '69 Camaro COPO replica with a 427 and a '69 Camaro SS with a 375/396, (both with auto). Both of those cars were incredible. Both of those cars undoubtedly had more power than the Z/28. But neither of those cars made me feel the same "magic" that the Z/28 did.There's something about the no frills of the early Z/28's that were magical. No badges (displacement and/or Z/28 badges didn't arrive until 1968), no frills, just a 4-speed, that high winding small block that seemed to never stop putting out power, and runway stripes. :D They truly were race cars thinly disguised as street cars. Fastforward to 1969, and by then GM had worked out most of the bugs and nastiness that made the Z/28's so neat. (They thankfully fixed the wheelhop for one.) That SS 396 probably had all the bells and whistles and even the COPO (albeit a clone) being a stripper car built for the drag strip was more refined than the rawness of the '67 Z/28. That's why they'll always be my favorite Camaros.
:bow:

There's something about the no frills of the early Z/28's that were magical. No badges (displacement and/or Z/28 badges didn't arrive until 1968), no frills, just a 4-speed, that high winding small block that seemed to never stop putting out power, and runway stripes. :D They truly were race cars thinly disguised as street cars. Fastforward to 1969, and by then GM had worked out most of the bugs and nastiness that made the Z/28's so neat. (They thankfully fixed the wheelhop for one.) That SS 396 probably had all the bells and whistles and even the COPO (albeit a clone) being a stripper car built for the drag strip was more refined than the rawness of the '67 Z/28. That's why they'll always be my favorite Camaros.
:bow:

Actually, the car didn't feel like a strippo at all. It had a pretty high level of interior trim compared to alot of the other period cars. It was just right, not too much, not too little.

The Evolution car with nothing more than gears, pulley and exhaust went 10.99 @ 128. Current setup has a lot more than a 10.40 in it. What I find comical is that there are people out there who find it impossible that a car other than their GM car can run a good number. This is what several of my friends (all of whom are on SVTperformance.com) as well as myself witnessed. I bet you'd be real quick to jump on the bandwagon if the 5th gen posted similar numbers with similar mods. Whatever lets you sleep at night.

Funny thing is, i never once defended any GM car, let alone the 5th gen...how can i without one spec?

I'm not on anyones bandwagon, if a cars fast...its fast! But lying about mods, or in your case not willing to admit that the car has a ported blower, suspension, lots of weight reduction...well its a page outta the ol' ricer handbook. Talk about jumping on a bandwagon, why don't you have a GT500?
Every car nowadays is fast, or at least has the potential to be, thats what makes this thread so funny. Buy whatever you want, don't base it on straight line performance, you can make any car new or old do that.

I'd take a 400hp Z/28 or SS and with a six speed and be plenty happy, no matter what the Mustang GT has.
Id be happy with a 500+ horse z28,as long as I can still beat up the GT's.

Id be happy with a 500+ horse z28,as long as I can still beat up the GT's.
This post bothers me for alot of reasons.

1. The Camaro will be cheaper than the mustang, allowing you to take some of the cash that you saved and put in one or two after market parts. If you spend $42,000 on the camaro and then a fwe mods, you will kill a stock stang' (Most likely)

2. Ok, so lets say that stock the camaro can beet up the mustang. Then so what? "Ya, I beat a stock mustang today" Big deal. You need to be thinking more along the lines of potential. The camaro has alot more potential than the stang due to it's better quallity manufacturing.

Ok, Im done.

This post bothers me for alot of reasons.

1. The Camaro will be cheaper than the mustang, allowing you to take some of the cash that you saved and put in one or two after market parts. If you spend $42,000 on the camaro and then a fwe mods, you will kill a stock stang' (Most likely)

2. Ok, so lets say that stock the camaro can beet up the mustang. Then so what? "Ya, I beat a stock mustang today" Big deal. You need to be thinking more along the lines of potential. The camaro has alot more potential than the stang due to it's better quallity manufacturing.

Ok, Im done.
1) You know the Camaro will be cheaper than the Mustang HOW??? :think: :confused: :shrug:

2) Camaros and Mustangs always HAVE and always WILL have lots of "potential" ... that's a no brainer that the new car will have lots of potential :rolleyes:. Of course the factory always leaves lots of room for improvement, no matter WHAT. Heck, look at the C6 Z06 ... it's ~505 HP, and that's barely scratching the surface of what a 427 c.i. LSx engine is capable of :thumb:. Better quality manufacturing? :shrug: Well, I hope the Camaro is better quality ... I don't want any BS problems with it that the past generations of Camaro have had (people have enough ammo against GM built cars as it is;)). But we've got big shoes to fill, competing against the Mustang. Looks alone won't sell the Camaro, so hopefully it's got more things going for it than one (such as quality:cool: ).

1) You know the Camaro will be cheaper than the Mustang HOW??? :think: :confused: :shrug:

2) Camaros and Mustangs always HAVE and always WILL have lots of "potential" ... that's a no brainer that the new car will have lots of potential :rolleyes:. Of course the factory always leaves lots of room for improvement, no matter WHAT. Heck, look at the C6 Z06 ... it's ~505 HP, and that's barely scratching the surface of what a 427 c.i. LSx engine is capable of :thumb:. Better quality manufacturing? :shrug: Well, I hope the Camaro is better quality ... I don't want any BS problems with it that the past generations of Camaro have had (people have enough ammo against GM built cars as it is;)). But we've got big shoes to fill, competing against the Mustang. Looks alone won't sell the Camaro, so hopefully it's got more things going for it than one (such as quality:cool: ).


1. Ok, I dont Know that he camaro wil be cheaper, but all the estamations i have heard indicate it will by a small amount.

2. Good pionts, but GM has alot better records than Ford when it comes to durability and quality, at least when it comes to trucks. In the end though, stock doesnt matter much. I have seen a v6 mustang beat a dodge viper by 2 lenths, but that is cuzz the guy did the work to make it fast.

So the question isnt which one will be faster off the showroom floor, rather which one will be faster after i spend a few days down there with a wrench?

So the question isnt which one will be faster off the showroom floor, rather which one will be faster after i spend a few days down there with a wrench?
Depends on who has deeper pockets ;). That's almost always been the case, with pretty much any car!

When the LS1 first came out, because it was brand spanking new, there was very little available for it in the aftermarket, and what little stuff WAS available, was very pricey :rolleyes:. At that time, LT1 guys and Mustang guys had an advantage over LS1 guys. Now that the LS1 has been on the market for ~10 years (sorry, LSx ;)) its aftermarket has grown substantially, and prices have come down a lot, to the point that some parts are actually CHEAPER for an LS1 than they are for an LT1! :eek:

SO, since not a lot has changed from the original LS1, LS6, up to the new LS2 (and beyond as far as we can tell) things like intakes, heads, cams, full rotating assemblies, etc., etc., will all be available to the 5th-gen the minute it hits the streets :). We all know the potential that these engines pack, so I don't think there's anything to worry about when the time comes to start shopping for go fast parts for your 5th-gen, in hopes of keeping up with (or beating) your Mustang buddies :cool:.

(people have enough ammo against GM built cars as it is;)). like interior quality?:D

This thread make baby Jesus cry

This thread make baby Jesus cry
My son named his new pet snake Baby Jesus. :D

I say the biggest factor is the driver. You can always increase the speed and power of your car if you have the money but driving skills is something that cant be bought. No matter how powerful a car is, if the driver is a nincompoop, its useless.

Actually, the car didn't feel like a strippo at all. It had a pretty high level of interior trim compared to alot of the other period cars. It was just right, not too much, not too little.

I still say its as simple as, youre a Z28 guy, you drove one of the RARE ORIGINAL first year unmolested Z28 Camaro's. Plus 1st Gens got class! :D

Before I say anything, I am just happy to see that there's a new Muscle Car War on the horizon! I miss this! I'm so tired of seeing shootouts on the covers of magazines showing japanese and european cars all the time - I want to see Muscle Cars lightin' em up on the covers!

I'm a Mustang guy but like the Challenger and Camaro both as well. Being a long time Mustang guy I've read and driven a few and have been to the track and seen results on what Mustangs can do from fox-bodies (including my own) all the way up to seeing stock-lookin' terminators running 11's, and 10's in stock exterior trim and even a couple 9 second 03-04 Cobras that appear stock in and out minus the slicks on the back. I guess what made me post on this thread is I started seeing some posted 1/4 mile numbers on the GT500 and also that people think it takes a lot of work to get a blown mod motored Mustang in the 10s. It just isn't. Those things are ridiculously responsive to a few choice mods like a blower pulley change and a slick alone get's the car well into the 11s.
Evan Smith, hot shoe and now head editor at Muscle Mustangs and Fast Fords Magazine (who I know quite well) was one of the first guys to test the new GT500 down the 1/4 mile and on the high speed test track.
As far as I know he was the only editor testing the new GT500 that was able to get a bone stock GT500 Mustang in the low 12s! No mods, no tricks - 12.2 to be exact. It can be done. Most people will be able to get high 12s out of it yes but is a GT500 capable of low 12s, absolutely.
Another thing to point out about the new Camaro - IRS? If that's something they are still going to production with then I hope they are able to make that car launch smoothly. There's a reason there's no more IRS in the Mustangs. That new 3-link is much better as far as ability to launch at the 1320.

Just thought I'd share what I've seen.

John

Evan Smith, hot shoe and now head editor at Muscle Mustangs and Fast Fords Magazine (who I know quite well) was one of the first guys to test the new GT500 down the 1/4 mile and on the high speed test track. As far as I know he was the only editor testing the new GT500 that was able to get a bone stock GT500 Mustang in the low 12s! No mods, no tricks - 12.2 to be exact. It can be done. Most people will be able to get high 12s out of it yes but is a GT500 capable of low 12s, absolutely.
We know who Evan Smith is ;). He's the same guy who posted a 12.89 with a bone stock '02 Camaro SS, and he's the same guy who ran an 11.97 in an '04 Z06 :thumb:. Which STILL gets me ... 11.97 with "only" 405 HP (only ;)) and yet the new Mustang is barely into low 12's, with 500 HP, but it takes Evan Smith to do it :rolleyes:.

BUT, I realize that comparing a GT500 to a C5 is, perhaps, apples to oranges :shrug:. But the C5 has IRS, yet it still performs well ;). I just HOPE GM sets the new Camaro up right :cool:.

Oh, and another apples to oranges comparison (car for car) is the C6 Z06 ... with its 505 HP, it's posting easy ~11.5's and I've seen ~11.20's bone stock :thumb:. That's a full second faster than the GT500, with the same amount of power! :)

For EVERYBODY'S sake (Mustangs included) I wish that the new cars weren't so damn heavy :rolleyes:.

I could see GM putting a LS9 into the Camaro in 2010 and calling it the top Camaro or Z28 model. A LS9 with 500hp insted of the 650hp the BlueDevil will have, and the LS9=LS3 with forged internals and a supercharger, still 6.2L.

The Z28 would be the GT500 competitor. :bow:

While a Camaro SS would get the LS3, and the base Camaro would get a 3.6L DI VVT DOHC motor or a 3.9L V6.

I think now the Corvette's LS3 will be at 450hp to set it apart from the Camaro SS engine's 400hp LS3. :D

I think now the Corvette's LS3 will be at 450hp to set it apart from the Camaro SS engine's 400hp LS3. :D

I am probably going to reveal a lot about my mechanical knowledge at this point, but I have always wondered what the actual difference was between the Camaro engines and the vette's engines that gave the descrepency in HP ratings. What is the limiting factor? Is it just tuning? Furthermore, what would need to be done to the above mentioned LS3 camaro engine to get it to the 450 rated HP of the vette given that it is the same engine?

It's just my opinion but if the 5thgen z28 has an ls2 then wouldnt that be able to beat a mustang gt500

First there is no 5th generation, 2nd I spank stangs all the time in my 4th.

Usually GM justs put a more restrictive air intake and exhaust on the Camaro to bring the power down from a Vette like they did with the 4th gen. Even though it didn't bring the power down much, the 4th gen F-Bodies were rated at 305hp for the lowest model V8 but were making closer to 340-350 at the flywheel for all the V8 models.

I expect the same thing to happen with the new Camaro.

I could see GM putting a LS9 into the Camaro in 2010 and calling it the top Camaro or Z28 model. A LS9 with 500hp insted of the 650hp the BlueDevil will have, and the LS9=LS3 with forged internals and a supercharger, still 6.2L.

The Z28 would be the GT500 competitor. :bow:

While a Camaro SS would get the LS3, and the base Camaro would get a 3.6L DI VVT DOHC motor or a 3.9L V6.

I think now the Corvette's LS3 will be at 450hp to set it apart from the Camaro SS engine's 400hp LS3. :D

GET OUT OF MY HEAD!!! :D

Usually GM justs put a more restrictive air intake and exhaust on the Camaro to bring the power down from a Vette like they did with the 4th gen. Even though it didn't bring the power down much, the 4th gen F-Bodies were rated at 305hp for the lowest model V8 but were making closer to 340-350 at the flywheel for all the V8 models.

I expect the same thing to happen with the new Camaro.

So simply installing a cold air induction and new headers/exhaust would get you up to the same (or more) HP as a vette? It has nothing to do with the PCM? That is much more simple than I thought....

Oh dear. If this is true...oh dear.
I fully plan on buying the top dog Camaro.
But only if it outperforms Mustangs.
Including the GT500
If not......
Weeelllllll.....
Those 'stangs don't look THAT bad....

At that price altitude, and the types of people who would buy cars like that, we are no longer talking about people buying something just to beat the competition. We are talking about fans of a particular car who want something above the the norm.

http://www.svtperformance.com/forums/showthread.php?t=325785

Why is the evolution car running 10.40's with every single mod in the book, including lots of weight reduction...yet the said car above is only a 1/2 second slower with a fraction of work done.
The Shelby is badass, no doubt about it...but that car was not even close to stock! I really don't know where to go from here, this thread is outrageously comical.

Is there a link to see what work was don on the Evo car?

Yeah, "rated", just like LS1's only have ~310 HP, right? ;) (at the wheels!:D)

I don't know much about the original Z28's horse rating, but all 4th gen LS1 Camaros put out just about the same horsepower, regardless as to what model you bought (sorry SS owners), about 5-10 horses down from the Corvette due to exhaust.

Screw road racing that pig. The Camaro will smack the Mustang on the course.

So tell me. How does that new 5th gen Camaro handle? I seem to have misplaced those 5th gen test drive and comparison articles. ;)



Well, the car felt special for alot of reasons, and it wasn't just for it's power. I drove much more powerful cars last weekend, which barely left me with an afterthought. This car was special for the total package. The looks, the style, the feel, the aura of nastiness that an early Z/28 has.....I don't know, in the other thread I try to put my finger on it....but it's hard to quantify. Whatever that "thing" is...it had it.

Earlier that day, I drove a '69 Camaro COPO replica with a 427 and a '69 Camaro SS with a 375/396, (both with auto). Both of those cars were incredible. Both of those cars undoubtedly had more power than the Z/28. But neither of those cars made me feel the same "magic" that the Z/28 did.


Charlie, you just hit on "IT". That thing that very few people understand. That instance where everything comes together, and the result is a blast to drive.

It's refreshing to hear that here because there are far too many people on this site whose minds can't comprehend anything beyond horsepower acceleration numbers. It's almost like trying to explain Algebra to kindegardeners. My fox 5.0 Mustang today would have it's lunch handed to it by a new Impala SS. My B4C would essentially decimate my 97 Z28. Yet I'd prefer my old fox Mustang over an Impala and I'd be almost willing to do an even trade of my B4C to get my '97 back .

I think now the Corvette's LS3 will be at 450hp to set it apart from the Camaro SS engine's 400hp LS3. :D

:shock: I will be one happy man if this is true :shock:

Id be happy with a 500+ horse z28,as long as I can still beat up the GT's.

Um.... no. :no: :lol:



1. Ok, I dont Know that he camaro wil be cheaper, but all the estamations i have heard indicate it will by a small amount.

Don't count chickens 2 years before they hatch. Mustang will be 4 years old by then, and will be fully paid off. If Fords assembly costs are low enough, they can keep Mustang prices very low.

2. Good pionts, but GM has alot better records than Ford when it comes to durability and quality, at least when it comes to trucks. In the end though, stock doesnt matter much. I have seen a v6 mustang beat a dodge viper by 2 lenths, but that is cuzz the guy did the work to make it fast.

So the question isnt which one will be faster off the showroom floor, rather which one will be faster after i spend a few days down there with a wrench?

[/quote]

1. Quality: Today GM is doing very well with initial percieved quality and early problems, still, saying GM has better qulity than Ford is a pretty big reach:

a) Every 4th gen Camaro I've owned has fried power window motors. I have a 4 year old B4C sitting outside right now with both motors out. I have a 17 year old T-bird with original motors. Other Fords I've owned that were alot older... no PW motor issues.

b) My 97 Camaro ripped 2 stock clutches by 135K miles. Never happened in my Mustangs. Infact, my '89 SC Thunderbird had it's clutch replaced for the 1st time at 135K miles. I now have nearly 220,000 miles. Had the tranny rebulit last year, but the clutch was still good.

c) Went through 3 alternators in my '97 Camaro. 1st opne went at 50K miles. Dad had the same problem with his new Silverado. I've never replaced a Ford alternator.

d) Rear axles in Camaros are far weaker than Fords. Ford 9" rears are the favorite of drag racers. Put alot of power through a 4th gen rearend with sticky tires & then let me know what happens.

e) LT1s are famous for developing vacuum leaks at the rear of the manifold. LS1s sound like diesels till they warm up.

f) I've worn out the carpet next to the gas pedal in my 2002 Camaro. Ditto the '97. Never happened in the Mustangs or T-birds.

g) My '97 Camaro left me stranded 5 times in the 1st 4 years I owned it. My 85 Mustang I owned for 11 years left me stranded once, as did my 1st '89 T-bird I owned for 6 (both due to a electrical short), & my current '89 left me stranded onece (A/C pulley fried). To date, my B4C I've owned for a year and a half has been dependable, as has my '93 T-bird for the past 3.


Using just my Camaros as a yardstick, and going by my own personal experience, I'd say GM not Ford has quality issues.

Being that I'm a person who tends to put alot of mileage on my cars, tend to depend on my cars, and also tends to keep my cars longer than average, to me "Quality" isn't just off the showroom floor, but how the car holds up years down the road.

The "New GM" made cars that have come out the past couple of years will be well worn by the time the next Camaro comes out. I'm holding judgement till I see how these cars hold up. :)

Charlie, you just hit on "IT". That thing that very few people understand. That instance where everything comes together, and the result is a blast to drive.

It's refreshing to hear that here because there are far too many people on this site whose minds can't comprehend anything beyond horsepower acceleration numbers. It's almost like trying to explain Algebra to kindegardeners. My fox 5.0 Mustang today would have it's lunch handed to it by a new Impala SS. My B4C would essentially decimate my 97 Z28. Yet I'd prefer my old fox Mustang over an Impala and I'd be almost willing to do an even trade of my B4C to get my '97 back .

I'm glad I'm not alone on that Guy. Sometimes it's like a penis waving contest around here, with the "nothing matters but absolute horsepower" crowd.

I'm less concerned about who's got the most power and more concerned about which car is the best drive.

well, not that we have been told that the camaro wil be coming with 450 hp, I dont think we have to worry too much about the stang. We are going to be right there with it!