procharger or vortech

Looking to make 700rwhp on my 96 lt1. What company should i go through.

Procharger F1

Procharger seems to be the hot ticket right now.

Procharger F1
>don't listen to him, what does he know he's just a professional engine builder and makes a living off people winning races because of his knowlege ;) .
But seriously I like the Vortech YSi-trim (even tho I have a T-trim) because its all I know, but hear a lot of complaints about Prochargers belt tensioner.
But the Procharger has a better intercooler than Vortech does.

Onces again victory, you never sease to impress me.lol

SD concepts has a good tensioner setup for the Prochargers (even if they are charging an arm and a leg and then a friggin head for $500 :mad: )

My vote is for ATI, but Vortec will do the same.

id get a ysi vortech, im making damn good power with my t-trim considering my mods

Yes, you are and after this winter you should be making even more power.:devil:

id get a ysi vortech, im making damn good power with my t-trim considering my mods

That is really what it comes down to. At the level he wants to be at he is going to need the better intercooler. I like the Vortech kits, and with the T-trim on cjmatts car we made good power, but jmh96z28 has 700rwhp set in stone, so we have our work cut our for us.


..But the Procharger has a better intercooler than Vortech does.

I'd buy an FMIC and ditch either of the Vortech and procharger intercoolers. You will need to make custom cold side piping, but thats easy.

Toss up as far as the compressors themselves. Both have crappy inlet ducting and tensioners. The different types of intercoolers vs. water injection vs. both is an involved topic. Any of them can be made to work. The tougher aspects of making 700rwhp involve the fuel system and the rest of the supporting cast (drivetrain, suspension, brakes, etc.) I have seen a lot of LT1 cars on the dyno and not many were making 700rwhp, inspite of what you hear on the 'net or read in the mags. A lot of attention needs to be paid to the heads, valvetrain, and exhaust. How you get the blower CFM is not the hard part.

Rich

Well im up for the challenge. And I think I'm going to go with ATI.

Well im up for the challenge. And I think I'm going to go with ATI.

What heads do you plan to use? The only pump gas LT1's I have seen with that kind of rwhp use AFR's or have been converted to a gen I.

Rich

Actually I was looking at LE3, but havn't seen any hp numbers in 650+. I havn't looked at AFR's yet. Do they come ported for my application or do i have to spend a arm and a leg for them and get them ported my self.

Yeah, figure on having a good $3500 bucks tied up in the heads and intake. :)

Yeah, figure on having a good $3500 bucks tied up in the heads and intake. :)

FUlly ported TFS heads from Lloyd shouldnt cost more than $2k... you can use stock LT1 intake manifold...ported for $300.

Are the casting supplied by LE or do i have to supply them.

Are the casting supplied by LE or do i have to supply them.

I dont know. I bought AFr castings and he ported them for me (I shipped them to him)... total was $2000 including all valvetrain. I would get are TFS heads (probably cost ya $1000) and send them to LLoyd for porting and setting up valvetrain.

Actually I was looking at LE3, but havn't seen any hp numbers in 650+. I havn't looked at AFR's yet. Do they come ported for my application or do i have to spend a arm and a leg for them and get them ported my self.

If you want to see 700rwhp you will need not be able to use the heads "as cast". They will need either hand porting or the factorys CNC porting. A good hand port will be best.

Rich

I dont know. I bought AFr castings and he ported them for me (I shipped them to him)... total was $2000 including all valvetrain. I would get are TFS heads (probably cost ya $1000) and send them to LLoyd for porting and setting up valvetrain.

So, far I have not seen a car with the TFS heads make that kind of power. Not saying it's not possible, just that I haven't seen it.

Rich

So, far I have not seen a car with the TFS heads make that kind of power. Not saying it's not possible, just that I haven't seen it.

Rich

Yeah, I havent seen any yet, but soon. Lloyd is pretty much getting the same flow out of his ported TFS heads compared to his ported AFR210's. His ported AFR's flow a tiny bit better, but not worth an LT4 style head considering the problems geting a LT4 manifold. Atleast you can run a stock LT1 manifold with the TFS stuff.

it's the conclusion I've been coming to for about a year now, that making power with a blower car is all about the top end. Is this correct?

The reason we are seeing blower cars with a D1 making 500 hp maxed and then others maxing out making 650 is some spent more on the heads, intake and valvetrain?

So, far I have not seen a car with the TFS heads make that kind of power. Not saying it's not possible, just that I haven't seen it.
Rich
Dont know how much hp were making widh loyd ported TFS and cam from Bret (big difference on different HP calculators) but best trap speed is 141.5 and best ET 1.50 9.82 widh a race weight of 3635lbs, widh a 50shot N2O i got it to hook perfect and did run a 1.38 9,44 143 still 3635lbs (any gueses on HP?)
Now to the topic, Since we converted to a 2x6 rib set up i havent seen any belt slip on oure max reved F1, I lined up the text on the 2 belts before the last race (8-9 runs) and the text were still paralell after the event (no rubber dust on the SC at all after 6events and a lot of street driving)...
last year (F1) we had a 8rib setup and i saw a few 1-2 psi dips at the end of the 1/4 so i cant really see why the procharger belt tensioner could have got this bad reputation??? (8rib were from my first P1SC)
So my wote goes to F1:bow:

Guess the price can go either way. But if you're talking AFRs then I don't think my guestimate is far off. $1100 for bare AFR heads and another $1700 in porting assuming Lloyd includes the valves, locks, springs, etc... that's already $2800. And if you don't have an LT4 manifold already, well, good luck finding one at a decent price.

How does the 6X2 belt setup work? Do you simply use 2 - 6 rib belts in place of a 12 rib?

Dont know how much hp were making widh loyd ported TFS and cam from Bret (big difference on different HP calculators) but best trap speed is 141.5 and best ET 1.50 9.82 widh a race weight of 3635lbs, widh a 50shot N2O i got it to hook perfect and did run a 1.38 9,44 143 still 3635lbs (any gueses on HP?)
Now to the topic, Since we converted to a 2x6 rib set up i havent seen any belt slip on oure max reved F1, I lined up the text on the 2 belts before the last race (8-9 runs) and the text were still paralell after the event (no rubber dust on the SC at all after 6events and a lot of street driving)...
last year (F1) we had a 8rib setup and i saw a few 1-2 psi dips at the end of the 1/4 so i cant really see why the procharger belt tensioner could have got this bad reputation??? (8rib were from my first P1SC)
So my wote goes to F1:bow:

I have AFR heads on my car, but they are only the AFR 180. Granted they were ported by TPIS, but they are still only the 180 series. That being the case my car still made 590 at the wheels on a hot day on a mustang dyno. I am sure that if I moved up to some AFR 210's I would see a marginal increase to perhaps 670 with the same atmospheric conditions.

Guess the price can go either way. But if you're talking AFRs then I don't think my guestimate is far off. $1100 for bare AFR heads and another $1700 in porting assuming Lloyd includes the valves, locks, springs, etc... that's already $2800. And if you don't have an LT4 manifold already, well, good luck finding one at a decent price.

LLoyd charged $700 for port work for me, valvetrain was under $500 and I got the heads bare from HPE for $850 on sale.

Not to steal this tread, but what seems to be the maxing out point, for a blower car, on stock, ported heads. Say like a LE3 headed, blowercammed, car.

The highest ones I see are in the low 600rwhp range.

Rich

My Ported Factory LT4's ran 159 mph @3450 race weight.;) Vortech YSi

Just to clarify, I am talking about HR street setups running on pump gas. And when referring to stock castings, I am talking about the typical ported stock castings, not some set of heads that someone spent a hundred hours reworking.

Rich

How does the 6X2 belt setup work? Do you simply use 2 - 6 rib belts in place of a 12 rib?
Yes, much easier to find 6rib belts than 12 ribs here.

hell with a supercharger...

gt76 is all you need

I will have to find it but a Car Combination motorsports did a 383, 236/248 114 cam, spinning the D1SC to max RPM, with gasket matched Trickflows, and a Ported intake with a 58mm, Through a 6-speed, air to water intercooler, and this was A Total Street Car. made 700RWHP an like 640RWTQ.

I will have to find it but a Car Combination motorsports did a 383, 236/248 114 cam, spinning the D1SC to max RPM, with gasket matched Trickflows, and a Ported intake with a 58mm, Through a 6-speed, air to water intercooler, and this was A Total Street Car. made 700RWHP an like 640RWTQ.

D1SC flows 1,400cfm, 40% more than an S-trim!

Rich

D1SC flows 1,400cfm, 40% more than an S-trim!

Ok, that makes since now Rich, I thought you was saying you haven't seen anyone make 700RWHP with Trickflow heads, But you ment with a S-trim :)

Also on a Side not I have always heard this and I just want to clearify since we are talking about Procharger VS Vortech

P1SC = S-Trim
D1SC = T-trim
F1 = YSI

So basicly, if I get afr heads I will have to get a lt4 intake. What about trickflows, will those match up to a lt1 intake

So basicly, if I get afr heads I will have to get a lt4 intake. What about trickflows, will those match up to a lt1 intake
>AFR has LT1 heads too...
http://www.airflowresearch.com/180sbc_lt1.php
I (thought I) heard that there is a way to match up LT4 heads to LT1 intake.
If not I'm sure people here can lead you in the right direction.

Yes, I meant with an S-trim.

S trim = 1,000cfm
T trim = 1,200cfm
YSi = 1,600cfm

P1SC = 1,200cfm
D1SC = 1,400cfm
F1 = 1,525cfm
F1R/D1R = 2,000cfm

Rich

...
F1R/D1R = 2,000cfm

Rich
>hey don't forget Vortechs:
VORTECH V-24 Z-TRIM SUPERCHARGER
The next generation in big blowers

Modular, extremely robust drive
4.25:1 internal step-up ratio
unprecedented strength and durability
Fits engines up to 1,400*+ horsepower
Maximum airflow: 2,000* CFM
Maximum boost pressure: 32 PSI
Absolute maximum impeller speed: 60,000 RPM
Adiabatic efficiency: 77%
Available with straight discharge and clockwise rotation only

>hey don't forget Vortechs:
VORTECH V-24 Z-TRIM SUPERCHARGER
The next generation in big blowers

Modular, extremely robust drive
4.25:1 internal step-up ratio
unprecedented strength and durability
Fits engines up to 1,400*+ horsepower
Maximum airflow: 2,000* CFM
Maximum boost pressure: 32 PSI
Absolute maximum impeller speed: 60,000 RPM
Adiabatic efficiency: 77%
Available with straight discharge and clockwise rotation only

:eek: :eek: :eek:
Thats friggin crazy talk for a street car. :shock: I am sure someone will argue with me otherwise though.

:eek: :eek: :eek:
Thats friggin crazy talk for a street car. :shock: I am sure someone will argue with me otherwise though.

I don't think a SB street car could make use of 2,000cfm. A 383 running 6,500rpm would show close to 30psi with 2,000cfm. Might have a tad of detonation on pump gas! My buddy uses an F1R on his 336ci SBF and sees 26-27psi at ~7,500rpm. The motor runs on C16 (117 MON), which is not exactly practical on a street car.

The 1,200cfm range is good for a small block street car. The S-trim, at 1,000cfm is a little small, but many people have very sweet setups with them. I was very happy with mine when I ran it. I may have already mentioned another buddy who runs an S-trim on his 347SBF and runs in the mid to high nines. Of course, that car weighs only 3,300lbs.

Rich

>hey don't forget Vortechs:
VORTECH V-24 Z-TRIM SUPERCHARGER
The next generation in big blowers

Modular, extremely robust drive
4.25:1 internal step-up ratio
unprecedented strength and durability
Fits engines up to 1,400*+ horsepower
Maximum airflow: 2,000* CFM
Maximum boost pressure: 32 PSI
Absolute maximum impeller speed: 60,000 RPM
Adiabatic efficiency: 77%
Available with straight discharge and clockwise rotation only
>I only posted this to make it fair with Rich showing the ATI Procharger F1R and D1R, so I figured I should post the Z-trim too :D

Making over 800 RWHP in a street car is really about useless IMO. Athough I know friends back home that are making over 1000 RWHP in their street cars and they would argue that there is never too much power. It pretty much depends on the individual I guess. But at a certain point having to find C16 for examply may become a pain to fill your car on the way to your kids soccer game and back.

Thats why you emulate what GM did with their Grand Nationals, and make compression rediculously low, and make boost rediculously high, with a great bottom end.

There a guy that lives by me running 19 ( Eeek!) psi pump gas on a 9.0 to 1 LT1. It is as rediculous as it sounds. And when it makes boost, whether it is in 1st, 2nd, 3rd, or 4th gear, the tires break loose without his drag radials. Is running a 9" with 4.10 ( maybe 4.11)'s ?, M6, its a freakin beast.

Another guy is trying to get his stang going with a 10.1:1 compression for 18 PSI, on E85. In the process of working out the bugs with a double pumper, and trying to find a tuner knowledgable with E85. Should be a ****ing monster when its done.

I am close to the 700rwhp mark, 686 out of the box afr 210, hr cam , lt4 intake pump gas.....

it just cost big $$$$$$$$$$ to get here

at this kind of power level you spend the extra so everything will hold at the 700 rw mark.....

Schurters,. just cursious, PM me, but what kind of fuel set up do you have? In particular, what injectors, hi or low impedience, if its low, what PCM or driver converter? How it run/drive? Any problems?

Schurters,. just cursious, PM me, but what kind of fuel set up do you have? In particular, what injectors, hi or low impedience, if its low, what PCM or driver converter? How it run/drive? Any problems?


Twin intank from lonnie, 84lbs inj, running Accel Gen 7 DFI....everyting works great.......

Twin intank from lonnie, 84lbs inj, running Accel Gen 7 DFI....everyting works great.......

Jeremy, whats the duty cycle on those injectors right now with your combo?

not sure Bud, with the gen 7 you can only record up to 7 channels at once....WITH !!!!!! the NEW!!!!!! Accel gen 7 WBO2 box you can record up to 19 channels....

i have the new box just have not wired in the rest to record stuff...

Toss up as far as the compressors themselves. Both have crappy inlet ducting and tensioners. The different types of intercoolers vs. water injection vs. both is an involved topic. Any of them can be made to work. The tougher aspects of making 700rwhp involve the fuel system and the rest of the supporting cast (drivetrain, suspension, brakes, etc.) I have seen a lot of LT1 cars on the dyno and not many were making 700rwhp, inspite of what you hear on the 'net or read in the mags. A lot of attention needs to be paid to the heads, valvetrain, and exhaust. How you get the blower CFM is not the hard part.

Rich

^^^^^^
True that! lol tensioner soooo terrible.