Correct me if Im wrong but from what I understand the VE will be renamed the G8 or Grand Prix? A four door muscle car doesnt fit any name plate(save Nova) in the states but VE Commodore does have a history and this current Commodore VE already lives up to that name. G8 means nothing to anyone yet. Why not just take the Aussie Commodore VE name that already has a reputation, and make it recognized globally? Am I off here? Thoughts?

 

I suspect that the VE name isn't known any better than G8 by the masses in North America. G8 makes sense as it's the next step up from G6.

 

I can guarantee you that any Pontiac imported from Australia will not wear the Grand Prix name.... unless Oshawa is leveled.

"VE" has no history whatsoever. It's just a model designation. Both Ford-Australia & GM-Holden use letter designations to name the body and the series. For the new Holden, "V" is the body and "E" is the series. The next model (even if it looks the same) will likely be the "VF", and so forth. The Commodore vehicles that have just ended production (the "VZ") was a "VT" when introduced back in the late 90s. Sometimes designations are skipped or started whereever. The new Holden wasn't called the "VA", and the last Commodore series had no "VW".

On the other hand, the name "Commodore" has an automotive history. "Caprice" has a automotive history both there and here.


To date, the "VE" is not selling very well in Australia. Holden is still making far more cars than Ford because Holden has a pretty extensive export program while Ford of Australia doesn't. So, dispite a lack of sales in the home market, Holden's discouraging VE sales aren't threatening the company.

 

So if say the Holden VE cars don't sell well in Aus could that improve the business case to start up exports to the US?

 

I think the case is already made. It does mean that larger quanities can be exported to the US, though.

 

Youre absoloutely right. I should have said Commodore, not VE. does that also mean the newly released Commodore is not selling well?

 

Some things to consider regarding importing Holdens to the US:

- Holden has only limited production capacity which could be earmarked for the US.

- Any Holden would need to be certified for NA. Holden says that would cost $20 million.

- The US/AUS dollars exchange rate would currently make a US bound Holden pricey.

- And one more thing....shipping.

 

1. Correct. Holden does have limited capacity. Roughly 200,000. 140K or so marked for the Aussie market, and another 20-30K for exports to existing markets.

2. $20 million is a mere pittance. It cost $60 million to reengineer and certify the GTO, and it still made GM money even though it sold below expectations. Holden's quote of $20 million is in the ballpark of what it cost Ford to develop the 2003 supercharged Cobra if I remember my numbers.... to put that price in perspective.

3. Current exchange rate isn't the problem. It's the projections of where the US dollar will be in 3 years. All it takes is a serious recession and suddenly, our cash value tanks while everything from elsewhere becomes more expensive in US$. Also, production volume affects pricing. Monaro-GTO is a good rule of thumb. Loaded Monaros sold for about $40K because Holden set up the finances based on 5K Monaros per year. When GMNA came along and upped production to 18K per year (5K for Australia, New Zealand, & the middle east, and 13K for our GTOs), our Goats cost just $32K. Holden chose not to lower Monaro prices because they were selling out like crazy at the existing price.

4. Shipping is a non issue. Bulk rate at last check was no more than $800-1000 per car.


Any cars exported here from Holden would be fully equpted in order to ease not just government certifications, but GM's as well.

Hope to be writing on this soon.

 

Well, the point is, that between certification, exchange rate and shipping - importing Holdens here adds cost to the consumer. Certainly Holden is pushing for it. Why wouldn't they? But in the end, you'll have a car which costs several thousand dollars more because of where it comes from.

Is a business case still possible? Sure. But all those not so insignificant factors need to be considered.

 

A car several thousands more than what??

You're right in that it wouldn't make much sense importing base Holdens over here. But once we start talking about $30,000 cars and up, it starts looking real good. GTOs were cheaper than Monaros. Mitsubishi Diamontes were cheaper than simlarly equpted Mitsubishi Magnas. Both instances, the volume made up for the differences in costs. That's the trick. A car that needs to sell over 5K per year to be profitable makes out at a lower price if it's 10K, 12K, or even 15K models per year.


Example:
Say Holden, which planned to sell 5K Monaros per year over 3 years at $30K each at wholesale dealer cost would gross $450 million (net $390 million minus production costs). Not bad on an investment of $60 million.

GM North America comes in and sells 40,808 GTOs, which cost them $60 million to certify for the US. Monaro's volume & price already covers the investment and initial profit, so the GTO's production is based only on what it costs to assemble. Those GTOs bring in $1.143 billion in gross sales at a lower cost point of $10K less than the Monaro, about $28,000 dealer wholesale.

Wanna throw shipping cost in there? OK... but I'm sure taking $40,808 out of $1.13 billion isn't exactly going to leave a bruise in the profit column.

In short,

1. $20 million is nothing.
The 2003 Mustang Cobra which made SVT money selling only about 10K per year.

2. The cost of shipping is more than offset than the drop in price. The VE is set up to be profitable for Holden in their existing market. Just like GTO, volume works in our favor as does it's cost effectiveness being covered by Holden's domestic production. Again, the cost of these cars would be production cost plus shipping.... not development costs. That's the part people tend to miss.

Only issue is if GM allocation of funds and market position. GM has a habit of not releasing money for small projects unless it's already on the market. Miata did the job for Solstice, Cobra essentially did the job for GTO, and the Charger R/T is doing it for the upcoming sedan.

 

So are we looking at similar cost of the GTO?

 

That's kind of a double edged sword there. True, most of the developement costs of the GTO were already paid for by the Monaro - well, yes and no actually, certifying it for the US cost more, (I believe), than the actual transformation by Holden from the Commodore to the Monaro. But as was revealed by Pontiac several months ago, the GTO was initially intended to MSRP for mid 20's. The dollar exchange rate and shipping ultimately wouldn't allow for that. So it ended up being priced several thousand dollars higher.

Imagine if the 2004 - 2006 GTO had an MSRP of $27,000 (or thereabouts), as Pontiac had intended, I think they would have flown off the shelf and Holden would have been hardpressed to keep up with production - a good problem.

Anyway, the only reason the GTO was imported was because there was no other RWD, 2 door, alternative in the GM world. Obviously, if there were a NA sourced car, savings on shipping and AUS $ exchange rate would have been realized.

Now as Zeta 2 becomes available, those extra few (thousand) bucks for a Holden sourced VE car, will likely be MUCH more closely scrutinized. Afterall, if you can buy an Impala SS for (just guessing), $32K - and if a nearly identically equipped G8 (rebadged Commodore), which if Holden sourced, would by necessity, cost afew thousand dollars more - then Pontiac's gonna have a big problem.

 

Not exactly.

First off the GTO at $30-35K is still a performance steal considering it is loaded (remember how much a loaded 4th gen cost (!). How many other 400 HP cars are there in that price range?

The people who were buying GTO's have $$$. If you look at the GTO aftermarket, it is UNBELEIVABLY huge for only 40,000 cars. The type of people buying these cars would not have let a few thousand be the difference in whether to buy or not. These guys have no trouble thowing down $2K for a headers and exhaust, or even $5K for for a Magnusun. Now not every buyer spens that much on their car for aftermarket parts. What I am saying though is the amount of GTO owners who do is disproportionatly higher than any market I have seen. If you want me to elaborate, send a pm).

Anyway, what hurt the GTO more than anything were a few design mistakes, like the gas tank in the trunk, the slow seat motors, and the lack usable cupholders. If I only was going to have one car, it would not be a GTO. You can't really fit anything more than some groceries in the trunk. The backseat is awesomly huge, but the slow seat motors make it so hard to get back there. Also, since the doors are not that long, you have trouble reaching back there killing any chance of a young family buying the cars. As for the cupholders, everything must come in 12 oz aluminum cans in Austrailia, because that is all you can reliably fit in there. These are things I can forgive in a 3rd play car...however they are fatal flaws if it is my only car or I have a baby to haul in it.

One other factor is that it is loaded, but compared to other "loaded" Pontiac's it lacks content. The avergae buyer is wondering where is the heated seats, moon roof, hud, climate control, etc?


The worst part is, the GTO is not even really loaded, in Monaro terms. In one of the Top Gear video's guy posted, you can see that car is outfitted with different cupholders, climate control, and a few other goodies the GTO did not get.

I think what held the GTO back in terms of s

 

Obviously you guys have a wealth of knowlege on the GTO, but I would argue that few grand diff would make it more competitive with Mustang and open it up to a lot more buyers and it would be more tempting to cross shop from the 06 Mustang. Aside from the gas tank in the trunk, the GTO;s flaws seem fixable.


It also makes sense that if Oshwa could produce esentailly the same car as Holden for a few grand cheaper Pontiac would have a problem. I dont see GM letting that happen though. It is after all the same car company. Im sure what can be produced here(Zeta) will be and anything needed after that will be imported from Holden. I would think any costs would be displaced across the rest of the Zeta not just the ones imported and would be even thus negligible. For instance, if 60% of US Commodores are produced in Canada and 40% US bound Commodores come from Holden, then the money needed to Americanize the Holdens would be displaced amoung all Commadores, not just the 40% It would keep Holden producing, justify the cars, help us, and be efficient. Maybe thats too simpictic but just a thought.

 

That's not what I'm saying. I'm not even commenting on what it costs for Holden vs GMNA to build a car. I'm simply saying that anything that comes from Australia to the US will have additional costs built into it.

If we exclude any dollar exchange rate fluctuations and go only with the $1K more in shipping which Guy quoted.....well, that's 1 grand more...isn't it?. Boys and girls, that's alot of money per unit. You can say, well make it a higher end product and raise the price to cover that. Okay. But if your product is marketable at that increased price point, why wouldn't you just charge that anyway, and figure out a way to pocket that thousand bucks - as in not having to ship these cars across the planet?