Will the BASE 5th gen outperform ALL previous STOCK Camaros?

...short of the LS1 F-bods.

First some assumptions.

-That the base motor will be a HF 3.6 of approximately 285 hp.

-That GM will be successful in keeping weight down to 3,500-3,600 lbs.

Let's consider that an M6, 3.6 CTS, with a good driver is capable of high 14's. If the wheelhop issue were resolved - easy mid 14's.

Now imagine a base Camaro with 30 more hp and with a couple of hundred pounds less weight. Certainly LT1 F-cars would not be safe in straight line or handling performance. Perhaps only LS1 F-cars could beat a BASE 5th gen, stock for stock.

(And before someone brings up the ZL1, stock means stock bias ply tires.)

IF we are lucky and the weight can be kept that low, I think you're correct in that thinking. However, we've still got 2-1/2 years to intro and alot of market forces can change in that amount of time.

It sounds plausible……



(….ya know…..my post just aren’t as in-depth as they used to be in this forum….)

...short of the LS1 F-bods.

First some assumptions.

-That the base motor will be a HF 3.6 of approximately 285 hp.

-That GM will be successful in keeping weight down to 3,500-3,600 lbs.

Let's consider that an M6, 3.6 CTS, with a good driver is capable of high 14's. If the wheelhop issue were resolved - easy mid 14's.

Now imagine a base Camaro with 30 more hp and with a couple of hundred pounds less weight. Certainly LT1 F-cars would not be safe in straight line or handling performance. Perhaps only LS1 F-cars could beat a BASE 5th gen, stock for stock.

(And before someone brings up the ZL1, stock means stock bias ply tires.)

Well even on bias ply tires an original ZL-1 would out perform a base model Camaro, but we are talking about a car that they made 69 of, and had a an all aluminum 427 that made around 650 hp.

I think a base model will be able to compete with previous models but even so I don't think it is going to beat the previous 4th gens in terms of the LS1 equipped cars. My main thinking here is that the new Camaro is going to be heavier than the previous models.

We will just have to see huh?

Doubtful.

The base Camaro is going to need to have very good fuel economy, which is going to dictate a numerically low axle ratio or a tranny with Eco-friendly gearing.

Another issue is torque. Even an LT1 is twisting with over 320 lbs/ft of torque. A V6 with 250 lbs/ft of torque even with the same gearing would have it's head handed to it in a drag race.

On the positive note, if it had 285 horsepower, with all else being equal (especially aerodynamics), it should reach an LT1's 155+ top end. However, I'm not yet convinced the 5th gen will have the aerodynamics of the 4th.

Either way, the base 5th gen will be no slouch, and depending how much lack of manhood one is trying to make up for, a base V6 manual 5th gen (with say a 6 second flat 0-60 time) will be plenty quick for just about everyone. :)

<<<<<<<Still wants a base V8 with about 325 - 350 HP...that would do mighty well against previous Camaros and at a great price!!:D :D

LT1's are high 13's low 14's
L98's mid 14's - highs
302 Z's mid to low 14's

LT4 SS's.....weren't many, but i've seen mid to low 13's

It doesn't stand a chance against any 427 car, they're high 13 sec cars no matter what tire they're spinning all the way down the track.

to early to tell with out even knowing anything besides where its being built. i would say unlikly though

LT1's are high 13's low 14's
L98's mid 14's - highs
302 Z's mid to low 14's

LT4 SS's.....weren't many, but i've seen mid to low 13's

It doesn't stand a chance against any 427 car, they're high 13 sec cars no matter what tire they're spinning all the way down the track.

I think a perfectly driven, 3,500 lbs, 285hp/285 ft lbs, M6, 5th gen, with no wheelhop issues, could concievably get into the high 13's or pretty close.

It certainly would destroy a stock COPO on a road course.

<<<<<<<Still wants a base V8 with about 325 - 350 HP...that would do mighty well against previous Camaros and at a great price!!:D :D
If they made a base V8, it would probably be similiar to the LS4 at 303 hp. Base model will be a V6 to keep costs down the base model so they can sell the car.

I think a perfectly driven, 3,500 lbs, 285hp/285 ft lbs, M6, 5th gen, with no wheelhop issues, could concievably get into the high 13's or pretty close.

It certainly would destroy a stock COPO on a road course.

Well in the 1/4, Id still say the COPO would take it, BUT

Why wouldnt you pit it against say a cross ram 69 Z28 on a road course? :D The Z was built for that and does it better than SS and probably the front heavy COPO though I dont know how well that aluminum big block really balances the car.

If they made a base V8, it would probably be similiar to the LS4 at 303 hp. Base model will be a V6 to keep costs down the base model so they can sell the car.

Last word was that there wouldn't be an LS4 like engine. In fact, the mid engine is/was supposed to be a V6.

Earlier this year, someone close to the project said none of the engines slated for Camaro are in production yet... and alluded to new transmissions as well. :think:

hmm so dosn't that exclude some of the motors people have been speculating/?

Well in the 1/4, Id still say the COPO would take it, BUT

.

Actually, I agree. But close enough for the purposes of discussion in this thread. ;)

Actually, I agree. But close enough for the purposes of discussion in this thread. ;)

Absoloutely, to get even close in a base car would be sweet! I think I get it now. I guess, I took it too literally...:D

Last word was that there wouldn't be an LS4 like engine. In fact, the mid engine is/was supposed to be a V6.

Earlier this year, someone close to the project said none of the engines slated for Camaro are in production yet... and alluded to new transmissions as well. :think:

hmm so dosn't that exclude some of the motors people have been speculating/?

most of the information we have is speculation. the only thing that is definite is that there making it and where it will be made and that there will be changes to it to make it suitable for the road. besides that almost all information is pure speculation.

I would put the BASE model on par with the LT1 as much as to make a race between the two a drivers race. LS1's should be faster than the BASE, but slower than the mid-level.

i thought the v6 cts was 3500lbs and therefore the same as the camaro target. the cts-v is a few hundred puonds heavier.

I'm going to limit myself to just the 93-97 4th gens and say not just no, but no way in hell. I may give it to the 5th gen on a road course, but that will be highly debatable given what most likely will go into a V6 suspension. Since we are talking "base", I believe a 5th gen "base" V6 will have a somewhat softer suspension than a Z28/RS/SS, etc. If for no other reason than to make it more palatable to people that find the latter suspensions a little harsh.

First, we seem to forget just how powerful the early 4th gens were. They were the king of the street in their day and not by just a little bit. Let's remember they had 275HP stock and most important for any 1/4mi. comparison, 325ft/lb of torque. These cars ran roughly 14.2 in the 1/4mi. A heavier V6 with significantly less torque doesn't really stand a chance. Now, you can say "it would be a driver's race", but are we talking about the car or the driver here?

I would say that if you put the same driver in each car, had him run both road course and 1/4mi. there would be very little to talk about. The only LT1 it would even have a chance against would be an A4 with 2.73 gearing. Even then, only in stoplight to stoplight racing.

I think some people don't like having all that power in a base car. Some people might want a sporty car but might be afraid of 285hp. Not me of course ;) but I won't be buying a V6.

I'm going to limit myself to just the 93-97 4th gens and say not just no, but no way in hell. I may give it to the 5th gen on a road course, but that will be highly debatable given what most likely will go into a V6 suspension. Since we are talking "base", I believe a 5th gen "base" V6 will have a somewhat softer suspension than a Z28/RS/SS, etc. If for no other reason than to make it more palatable to people that find the latter suspensions a little harsh.



It doesn't need to be harsh to handle well. The 5th gen's structure will be far more rigid than the 4th gen's. It will also have a far more sophisticated suspension. This means you won't need to go strictly to reduced wheel travel (stiffer), to get better handling.

I think some people don't like having all that power in a base car. Some people might want a sporty car but might be afraid of 285hp. Not me of course ;) but I won't be buying a V6.

Its going to need that kind of power since the Mustang V6 is slated to get some power bumps before the 5th gen comes out.

Why bother getting all worked up over the Base camaro. If you wanted a fast car get the up model. The v-6 as far as my thinking goes are for the women that want the look without the neck snaping speed.IMO

Why bother getting all worked up over the Base camaro. If you wanted a fast car get the up model. The v-6 as far as my thinking goes are for the women that want the look without the neck snaping speed.IMO

Well, I think the base car is exceedingly important. I hope more than just women want one, and I hope ALOT of women want one. I hope people who have NEVER, EVER even considered a Camaro want one.

Your view, IMO, is very unidimensional and not very productive.

I hope a lot of women buy them too, because I hardly see guys driving V6 f-bodies..... If it comes with a M6, guys will buy the V6 version.

I guess I have a stereotypical unidimensional opinion as well.

I hope a lot of women buy them too, because I hardly see guys driving V6 f-bodies..... If it comes with a M6, guys will buy the V6 version.

I guess I have a stereotypical unidimensional opinion as well.

I actually see about equal male and females in V6 F-cars. The problem I think, is that there aren't very many of them.

um, i would hope not.

Its going to need that kind of power since the Mustang V6 is slated to get some power bumps before the 5th gen comes out.

Current Mustang V6 has 210 HP and 240 lb.-ft or torque. A bump doesnt get to 285 hp and 325 lb.-ft of torque. My guess is that the 5th gen will be heavier than an LT1 and its V6 will be about the same as the Mustangs. If we are talking about V6's that are pushing 300hp, the price would start to approach the price of a 350z.

Current Mustang V6 has 210 HP and 240 lb.-ft or torque. A bump doesnt get to 285 hp and 325 lb.-ft of torque. My guess is that the 5th gen will be heavier than an LT1 and its V6 will be about the same as the Mustangs. If we are talking about V6's that are pushing 300hp, the price would start to approach the price of a 350z.

The rumor mill says that Mustang gets the 3.5 Duratec as base. Horsepower? 270-ish or so.

The rumor mill says that Mustang gets the 3.5 Duratec as base. Horsepower? 270-ish or so.

Rumor mills are fun :) Say they do. Then there would be a comparable V6 in the Camaro. But I don't think that will happen just yet. Just look at the 300hp 350z from Nissan. Starts at 27k. Maybe Ford will find away to put a better engine into the Mustang. Maybe they skimp on the tranny and suspension and base options, but the 350z is starting at the price of a Mustang GT.

Rumors are only rumors. I just want it to be 2009 so I can go get my car :)

Rumor mills are fun :) Say they do. Then there would be a comparable V6 in the Camaro. But I don't think that will happen just yet. Just look at the 300hp 350z from Nissan. Starts at 27k. Maybe Ford will find away to put a better engine into the Mustang. Maybe they skimp on the tranny and suspension and base options, but the 350z is starting at the price of a Mustang GT.

Rumors are only rumors. I just want it to be 2009 so I can go get my car :)

No doubt a Duratec would add afew hundred bucks to the price of a V6 Mustang. Certainly not afew thousand, and certainly not enough to price it with a 350Z.

...short of the LS1 F-bods.

First some assumptions.

-That the base motor will be a HF 3.6 of approximately 285 hp.

You may be starting with wrong assumptions.

well i must just not get it. Me all of my freinds, and everyone that i know with an F body, got the Z28, if we wanted a "fast" car. Does it really matter if the v-6 has 230hp-or 265 hp? I don't get why people are all worked up over the "base" camaro. Of corse its not going to beat an LT1 Car, hell i bet it "may" run with the 350TPI cars. Can anyone shed some light on what im missing?

Can anyone shed some light on what im missing?

Because if the Camaro is to be successful, the base car needs to be fabulous. Not just a throw away model. It NEEDS to be good enough for alot of people to not only check it out, but to actually buy it.

And if the base V6 "only" feels like a 350TPI...that would be pretty fantastic, don't you think?

You may be starting with wrong assumptions.

Maybe...

What's your guess?

Maybe...

What's your guess?

We'll see an entry level push rod V6.

We'll see an entry level push rod V6.

Very possible. If that happens, I'd expect abit more power out of the HFV6, than I quoted in my "assumption".

Very possible. If that happens, I'd expect abit more power out of the HFV6, than I quoted in my "assumption".

Like LS1 HP numbers? :)

Like LS1 HP numbers? :)

Thereabouts.

I can't see the base outperforming a LT1 Fbody, especially an SS or WS6. Assuming an honest 285hp out of the V6, it's going to be down significantly on torque as mentioned by others, but it's going to be down on hp by 10-15 hp as well even to the early LT1s rated at 275 hp. LT1s are 300hp engines pretty much across the board, 250-260 rwhp from stock 6spd cars does not equal 275-285 crank hp... Weight is going to be the same or more on the new base, gearing is likely to less aggressive, overall suspension setup won't be as good, etc. I expect the new base to be nearly a half second slower through the 1/4 than a properly running and driven 6spd LT1 honestly...

But I think that will be pretty good, a mid 14 second base Camaro would be sweet. I hope it turns out the absolute base car is that good of a performer, because the 200ish hp level is just so tired now. If they make a 210ish base again like the current Mustang it will be disappointing, can't go anywhere these days without seeing a half dozen of the base poseur Mustangs all over the place. A 285ish hp base would be a good all around base Camaro that actually brings quite a bit of performance to the party for a change. Honestly though I'm expecting a 210-220hp true base model again, price will be the biggie IMO and I doubt a 285ish hp base will get it done, hopefully I will be pleasantly surprised. Blah

yes

Honestly though I'm expecting a 210-220hp true base model again, price will be the biggie IMO and I doubt a 285ish hp base will get it done, hopefully I will be pleasantly surprised. Blah


Keep in mind, by then, grandma's Camry will probably have 260-280 hp.

Why bother getting all worked up over the Base camaro. If you wanted a fast car get the up model. The v-6 as far as my thinking goes are for the women that want the look without the neck snaping speed.IMO

:rolleyes:

David

well i must just not get it. Me all of my freinds, and everyone that i know with an F body, got the Z28, if we wanted a "fast" car. Does it really matter if the v-6 has 230hp-or 265 hp? I don't get why people are all worked up over the "base" camaro. Of corse its not going to beat an LT1 Car, hell i bet it "may" run with the 350TPI cars. Can anyone shed some light on what im missing?

well the car is a flagship and even base cars should live up to the name and perform like a car people would actually want to own.

Keep in mind, by then, grandma's Camry will probably have 260-280 hp.

That is why the base engine should be the Vortec 4200 I-6. I think the newest version has 291hp, by then it could be over 300. And you also get the reliability and strength of an I-6 as opposed to a V6. I mean they already make ****loads of those engines for Envoys and Trailblazers, it couldn't be that hard to steup up production a bit. You could even say it is a tribute to the 1st gen base models since they also sported I-6s.

That is why the base engine should be the Vortec 4200 I-6. I think the newest version has 291hp, by then it could be over 300. And you also get the reliability and strength of an I-6 as opposed to a V6. I mean they already make ****loads of those engines for Envoys and Trailblazers, it couldn't be that hard to steup up production a bit. You could even say it is a tribute to the 1st gen base models since they also sported I-6s.

That would be an incredibly sweet base motor. Unfortunately, it's too tall and too long to fit in a Camaro.

That would be an incredibly sweet base motor. Unfortunately, it's too tall and too long to fit in a Camaro.

Oh well, that would have rocked. I-6s are so much better than V-6s due to how well balanced they are and how much fewer parts they have. Looks like the 4200 is consistently named to Ward's 10 best engines:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GM_Atlas_engine

Maybe it can happen somehow? 291hp and 277tq in its current form, bet it could be up to 310 and 290 by 2008.

Thereabouts.
So something like 300 hp OHV V6???:eek: Ok that ain't the HV V6 we got now, 224 hp now with VVT and variable intake and DOD. So would this be a new generation OHV V6? Would the displacement possibly be larger?

As you can tell my intrest is certainly peaked!

So something like 300 hp OHV V6???:eek: Ok that ain't the HV V6 we got now, 224 hp now with VVT and variable intake and DOD. So would this be a new generation OHV V6? Would the displacement possibly be larger?

As you can tell my intrest is certainly peaked!

HFV6.

Another issue is torque. Even an LT1 is twisting with over 320 lbs/ft of torque. A V6 with 250 lbs/ft of torque even with the same gearing would have it's head handed to it in a drag race.


Peak numbers (both power and torque) don't tell you much. A useable powerband is the key. Also, 1/4 mile times are more directly related to horsepower than torque. Torque is just a measure of the force output, and is changed by gearing. Horsepower is the measure of energy produced, which is not affected by gearing.

Yes, gearing will affect the 1/4 mile time, but only becuase it puts the engine in the range where it makes power.

If 1 car has higher horsepower, but the 2 cars have identical peak torques, identical weight, and the same traction, then the higher horsepower car will win.

That is why the base engine should be the Vortec 4200 I-6. I think the newest version has 291hp, by then it could be over 300. And you also get the reliability and strength of an I-6 as opposed to a V6. I mean they already make ****loads of those engines for Envoys and Trailblazers, it couldn't be that hard to steup up production a bit. You could even say it is a tribute to the 1st gen base models since they also sported I-6s.

I thought the GMT360's and the I6 are getting one mild refresh and then go out to pasture ... replaced by crossovers.

We spent 4 1/2 years with an I6 Envoy and simply don't feel the love you do. The LS2 in the TB SS on the other hand ... :cool:

I liked the power of the I6 in my mom's trailblazer, but over it was kinda blah. Especially when you consider the best milage we got (all highway) was about 20mpg. Just saw an ad for a Yukon with a v8 (can't remember which) that is rated at 21 highway. So, less hp/tq with the same mileage in a smaller vehicle.

LT1's are high 13's low 14's
L98's mid 14's - highs
302 Z's mid to low 14's

My bone stock 100K plus L98 ran a best of 14.1 @ 98 with a 2.0 60' time. Then again it was also very cool out that night and wheel spin off the line was very minimal... Just a though.


Anyway, Either way a 5th Gen is going to be badass... :D