GM trademarks Firebird and Fiero....

http://www.leftlanenews.com/2006/09/07/trademarks-pontiac-firebird-fiero-set-to-return/

Well I'll eat a lot of crow if the bird comes back :p

I hope they don't use the Feiro name again. It's a negative with Gen Y

Cool :cool:, but if I remember right, they had trademarked Nomad too and still no sign of one :( . I hope the Firebird comes back (I really don't know where the Fiero would fit in), but we will have to wait and see.

David

(I really don't know where the Fiero would fit in), but we will have to wait and see.
David

The article speculated that's what the rumored Solstice Coupe could be named. It's doubtful there's much to read into it, though.

Don't they need to keep trademarks to continue to sell apparel and merchandise with the model names on them, while not allowing others to do so? If so, this is a non-story.

Plus, what if they eventually want to bring back the Firebird. They can't let a classic GM namebrand like that go.

Not sure anyone is going to do it, but if someone were to make a replacement front end for the 5th gen to make it look like a firebird (like that company that transformed GTO's into modern chevelles) this would keep them from using the name.

I can totally see the firebird coming back with a big chicken on the hood, but I don't know about the Fiero. I have one, and it's a fun car but the Solstice has such a good rep right now I don't think they would mess with it.

As excited as I got and as much as I want to believe they are coming back; I have to think this is more related to merchandising.

Don't they need to keep trademarks to continue to sell apparel and merchandise with the model names on them, while not allowing others to do so? If so, this is a non-story.

Ding! Ding! Ding! We have a winner! :D

remember what happened to ford when they let the trademark for GT40 lapse?

this really is a non-story.

if I remember right, they had trademarked Nomad too and still no sign of one :( .

EXACTLY. I think this is SOP for any car maker. They wouldn't want another manufacturer to make a Firebird. I am sure Chevrolet still owns the trademark to "Bel Air" and Oldsmobile (a company that technically no longer exists) still owns the trademark to "Jet Fire" as well.

My gut tells me that this is nothing to get excited about, unfortunately.

Weird things happen when you don't keep a name, Ford used the Futura name and wanted to use it again, but Pep Boys started to make tires with the same name. I can see the perfect logic in making the names their property.

Just because a name is copyrighted by GM, doesn't mean a cars coming out under that name.

Ford came within a whisker of losing the Cobra name in the early 90s, and did actually lose the rights to "Futura" (even though they still used the name in Australia) and "GT40". I'm sure the "Fairlane" name of their concept crossover (which will be dropped for production) was a move to keep the name alive.

Chrysler will never have another "Barracuda" or "Cuda". Those names are trademarked by someone else.

Firebird has a history with GM, as does Fiero. Both names would be very valuable to any other company, and if they trademarked those names, they can claim it as their own.

As for the a Pontiac coupe with Camaro as the jump off point and another Kappa based vehicle.......? :)

Can anyone imagine a 3,200 lbs, 300 hp*, affordable, Firebird?



Just saying.......










*Turbo Ecotec.

Can anyone imagine a 3,200 lbs, 300 hp*, affordable, Firebird?



Just saying.......










*Turbo Ecotec.if it's a kappa it should weigh less than the solstice.

if it's a kappa it should weigh less than the solstice.

Kappa, Schmappa......

Let's say Kappa-esque with 2 more seats and better utility.

I could imagine it because you guys have been talking about something exactly like that for pontiac for months now.

Kappa, Schmappa......

Let's say Kappa-esque with 2 more seats and better utility.
You and Josh been sharing notes?

Kappa, Schmappa......

Let's say Kappa-esque with 2 more seats and better utility.
if that's the case i'm ok with 3200lbs.

Not sure anyone is going to do it, but if someone were to make a replacement front end for the 5th gen to make it look like a firebird (like that company that transformed GTO's into modern chevelles) this would keep them from using the name.


I want to get a new Challenger and make a new Barracuda REAL BAD!

if that's the case i'm ok with 3200lbs.

I'm just speculating on the weight. :)

You and Josh been sharing notes?

More speculation on my part. But if a coupe, sedan and/or wagon comes out of this....and Pontiac gets one or more of these.....it sure would be tempting to call the coupe, Firebird, don't you think?

Again, lots of speculation on my part - but it's fun to talk about.

if it's a kappa it should weigh less than the solstice.

Not really. How much did the Saturn Curve or Chevy Nomad concepts weigh?

I'm a traditionalist (Just like the Camaro guy's.) when it comes to the Firebird. While I don't mind putting the car on a different chassis, I DO want it to retain the same formula! That means not only rear wheel drive, but an available v-8 as well! Now I know that kappa was designed around 4 cyl. only, but Holdens Torana concept was modded to take a twin turbo v-6 so it can be modded to take a v-8! However, it may unfortunately be too impractical for the General to do it. If this car tops out with a turbo ecotec then I would rather they called it a Sunfire or Sunbird than a Firebird! It would be like you Camaro guys being told that the top Camaro would have a turbo ecotec as it's engine instead an ls7! (Then you would know how the Mustang guy's felt from '79-'81!)

I'm a traditionalist (Just like the Camaro guy's.) when it comes to the Firebird. While I don't mind putting the car on a different chassis, I DO want it to retain the same formula! That means not only rear wheel drive, but an available v-8 as well! Now I know that kappa was designed around 4 cyl. only, but Holdens Torana concept was modded to take a twin turbo v-6 so it can be modded to take a v-8! However, it may unfortunately be too impractical for the General to do it. If this car tops out with a turbo ecotec then I would rather they called it a Sunfire or Sunbird than a Firebird! It would be like you Camaro guys being told that the top Camaro would have a turbo ecotec as it's engine instead an ls7! (Then you would know how the Mustang guy's felt from '79-'81!)

Wasn't there a Seinfeld episode about this? ;) (!)

Well Im opptimistic about this kappa Firebird

It would be nice to see the return of the Firebird. Granted I am happy about the return of the Camaro, but it will seem a little weird without its other half alongside it.

"Not really. How much did the Saturn Curve or Chevy Nomad concepts weigh?"

If your talking Safari or even Transcontinental you definitely have my attention!

I'm a traditionalist (Just like the Camaro guy's.) when it comes to the Firebird. While I don't mind putting the car on a different chassis, I DO want it to retain the same formula! That means not only rear wheel drive, but an available v-8 as well! Now I know that kappa was designed around 4 cyl. only, but Holdens Torana concept was modded to take a twin turbo v-6 so it can be modded to take a v-8! However, it may unfortunately be too impractical for the General to do it. If this car tops out with a turbo ecotec then I would rather they called it a Sunfire or Sunbird than a Firebird! It would be like you Camaro guys being told that the top Camaro would have a turbo ecotec as it's engine instead an ls7! (Then you would know how the Mustang guy's felt from '79-'81!)


I hear what you are saying.

But the goal here would be to create excitement and sell cars. So, if such a RWD, 2 door, 2+2, 300 hp, great handling, Pontiac coupe/hatchback were built - and the Firebird name were available for it - but it was instead called Sunbird.......well, that would just be dumb.

Not really. How much did the Saturn Curve or Chevy Nomad concepts weigh?
i was assuming two seats only.:shame:

Could you use the Vette as a jumping off point instead of Kappa. Maybe mix Corvette and Zeta parts?

Could you use the Vette as a jumping off point instead of Kappa. Maybe mix Corvette and Zeta parts?

Well, whatever it will consist of, we can make some safe guesses on what it will be:

An architecture based on hydroformed rails with off the shelf GM parts hung on it.

An architecture based around the Ecotec, both in packaging and in power production.

An architecture that is far more flexible than Kappa, that is engineered to be assembled with greater automation than Kappa and be priced at an entry level for RWD.

Z284ever is right. Using Sunbird on just about anything would be a mistake, especially a nice car.

Could you use the Vette as a jumping off point instead of Kappa. Maybe mix Corvette and Zeta parts?


mmm Y-body Firebird :cool:

So.... What Fiero merchandise is GM going to be selling? :confused:

What if Firebird was coupe version of the small RWD sedan Pontiac wants. What if this whole program had it's development based in say...Austrailia, which badly wants Torana?

Just throwing things out. I do think you need more than Ecotech for the car to be succesful. If it was limited production, Fiero would be fine because their are tons of Fiero enthusiasts still around.

Lets not forget to some people Camaro brings up images of trailor parks mismatched hubcaps..and now it is obvious that it would be dumb not to revive the name. To bring Fiero back, GM would need to design a car that reminded everything of what was right about the old one.

I would say put Fiero on the Solstice Coupe, and save Firebird for a more "substansial" car.

I do think you need more than Ecotech for the car to be succesful.


Actually, I think limiting this platform to the Ecotec is a big part of the business plan.

I would say put Fiero on the Solstice Coupe, and save Firebird for a more "substansial" car.

I'm not that big of a fiero fan I even know that anyhting with the Fiero name better have a Mid Engine layout.

Actually, I think limiting this platform to the Ecotec is a big part of the business plan.

Then I am guessing they do not plan on getting old Firebird buyers to buy this new one?

If you take this whole thread and replace Firebird with Camaro, people would be up in arms.

I can stomach maybe a high feature turbo V6 as top of the line, but as soon as you mention Ecotech only I am done. I am a pretty accepting buyer...just look at the cars I have had...but I could not stomach a 4 cylinder only turbo Firebird. And I would be one of the first ones in line for a new Firebird (if the styling/powertrain was right)...more so over a Camaro.

Returning the Camaro as a 4 cylinder only = abomination

Returning the Firebird as 4 cylinder only = greatest idea ever

Returning the Camaro as a 4 cylinder only = abomination

Returning the Firebird as 4 cylinder only = greatest idea ever

If you like Camaros....

Then I am guessing they do not plan on getting old Firebird buyers to buy this new one?


This is part of the reason Im convinced its going to stay dead.

Firebird enthusiast arent going to want anything that departs to far from the formula, no FI, no AWD, no high price.

Neither Chevy nor Camaro enthusiasts are going to want Pontiac to have anything obviously superior, although thats were Pontiac ought to be.

This is part of the reason Im convinced its going to stay dead.

Firebird enthusiast arent going to want anything that departs to far from the formula, no FI, no AWD, no high price.

Neither Chevy nor Camaro enthusiasts are going to want Pontiac to have anything obviously superior, although thats were Pontiac ought to be.


Honestly, I can deal with a high feature V6 (turbo or not), AWD, and even a high price (old T/A's were not cheap).

However, you start talking Ecotech, I am outta here. I don't care how much boost you put behind it, it is simply not gonna be cheaper, lighter, or more efficiant than a LSx engine.

I would say bring the Firebird back, base it off a small to midsized RWD platform that could also spawn a new sedan (would be awesome for a new BLS also) and give it a high feature V6, with up level having a turbo option. Aim it squarly at the the G35 and 350Z, and call it a day. Then you can sell it maybe in the in the low-mid $30K range and move Pontiac upscale towards the Infinity performance/luxury market.

If you wanna take a turbo 4 and slap it on an AWD car to take on the WRX and EVO...call it a Grand Am. Just my opinion.

Having a Grand Am compete with an EVO and STI would be really weird.

Having a Grand Am compete with an EVO and STI would be really weird.having a grand am compete with anything would be weird.;)

Ddin't Warren Johnson campaign a Grand Am in NHRA pro-stock before they moved to the GTO? (not really the same I know :) )

The old Grand Am looked like it could compete with the STI and EVO. Obviously the engineering was not there.

I know people at GM would like to think that the Grand Am is a damaged name...however no one was singing praises of the Imprezza or Lacer untill the STI and EVO came out.

Ddin't Warren Johnson campaign a Grand Am in NHRA pro-stock before they moved to the GTO? (not really the same I know :) )

Yes, I have the sticker, handed to me from John Sawruk, ex-GM (Pontiac) employee...

BTW, speaking of Sawruk, he talked a little at the GTOAA Nationals in July in Louisville about Pontiac performance - how it wasn't always V8 and RWD. He went on to mention that one of his/his wife's favorite cars was a turbo Sunbird they had. He also said that the Saab 9-2 (a/k/a Saabaru) was originally destined to be a Pontiac, before it was moved to Saab (I can't remember what component he said was lifted right from the Vibe - steering wheel, maybe?). He also said he wouldn't talk about future products, but both turbos and AWD were very interesting concepts to him. I'm not sure if he was trying to start the Pontiac winky club or not, but I remember all of the questions on AWD on the GM FastLane blog a year ago, and wonder if this is something that's in Pontiac's (and maybe Holden's) future...

He also said that the Saab 9-2 (a/k/a Saabaru) was originally destined to be a Pontiac, before it was moved to Saab (I can't remember what component he said was lifted right from the Vibe - steering wheel, maybe?). .

Now that would have been interesting.

I agree with formula79, I am open to any technoligical advances- but it has to be cool. A 4 cyl just doesn't fit the model of a Firebird. I think there are enough names they can use so that they do not disgrace the Firebird. I still think if they sell enough Camaro's they will bring back the Firebird.

What if Firebird was coupe version of the small RWD sedan Pontiac wants. What if this whole program had it's development based in say...Austrailia, which badly wants Torana?

Just throwing things out. I do think you need more than Ecotech for the car to be succesful. If it was limited production, Fiero would be fine because their are tons of Fiero enthusiasts still around.

Lets not forget to some people Camaro brings up images of trailor parks mismatched hubcaps..and now it is obvious that it would be dumb not to revive the name. To bring Fiero back, GM would need to design a car that reminded everything of what was right about the old one.

I would say put Fiero on the Solstice Coupe, and save Firebird for a more "substansial" car.

Why put Fiero on a Solstice Coupe when that Coupe has a great name that is getting alot of recognition? Call the Solstice Coupe a Solstice Coupe.

I hear what you are saying.

But the goal here would be to create excitement and sell cars. So, if such a RWD, 2 door, 2+2, 300 hp, great handling, Pontiac coupe/hatchback were built - and the Firebird name were available for it - but it was instead called Sunbird.......well, that would just be dumb.

If that were the case, why not build it on the same platform as the camaro? Oh yeah, that whole competition with each other sort of thing. Unless there is alot of change, a 300hp 2+2 RWD car wont be built for the same reason a camaro based firebird will not be built.

Why put Fiero on a Solstice Coupe when that Coupe has a great name that is getting alot of recognition? Call the Solstice Coupe a Solstice Coupe.

:yes:

If that were the case, why not build it on the same platform as the camaro? Oh yeah, that whole competition with each other sort of thing. Unless there is alot of change, a 300hp 2+2 RWD car wont be built for the same reason a camaro based firebird will not be built.

Thats what hes suggesting, something thats significantly different from Camaro.

If that were the case, why not build it on the same platform as the camaro? Oh yeah, that whole competition with each other sort of thing. Unless there is alot of change, a 300hp 2+2 RWD car wont be built for the same reason a camaro based firebird will not be built.

Completely different car. Completely different platform. Completely different niche.

Completely different car. Completely different platform. Completely different niche.
Completely new name.

Completely new name.

Then everyone would say: Why didn't they call it Firebird? :)

Then everyone would say: Why didn't they call it Firebird? :)
i don't think people will call a turbo 4 powered kappa 2+2 a firebird....unless it looks like one.

i don't think people will call a turbo 4 powered kappa 2+2 a firebird....unless it looks like one.

What does one look like?

What does one look like?


A angry Camaro on Steriods.

A angry Camaro on Steriods.

That's it?

What does one look like?
what does a camaro look like?

what does a camaro look like?

Exactly.

Exactly.
if they called the redesigned monte a camaro you would be happy?

if they called the redesigned monte a camaro you would be happy?

No, but I could live with a RWD, 2+2, compact coupe as a Firebird.

No, but I could live with a RWD, 2+2, compact coupe as a Firebird.maybe you could but there are tons of others that would think it is a disgrace to the name.

maybe you could but there are tons of others that would think it is a disgrace to the name.

Honestly, I think very few would feel that way. And I think many, many thousands would embrace it. JMHO.

Honestly, I think very few would feel that way. And I think many, many thousands would embrace it. JMHO.


Reverse it, and put the Camaro in it's place. How many of use would be thrilled if Camaro was bought back as a compact, RWD, 2+2 with and roided up Ecotech.

If there is anything that GM should have learned from the GTO, it is that you can not just slap a heritage name on any old car that is remotly close to the original formula, and expect it to be accepted. There has to be some sort of styling tie in with the older car (not retro...think SN-98 Mustang), and you can not be too liberal with straying from the original formula. V8 is a huge part of the original formula IMO. I would accept a Turbo V6 (because there was pretty bad assed turbo TA)...but there is no way I could go for the Ecotech in a Firebird. Save it for the Solstice.

The only reason I can see GM naming the car Firebird is to get some Firebird enthusiasts back. Making it a 4 cylinder only car whould actually probaly repel Firebird enthusiasts...so I see no point in it having the name.

Matter of fact, I can not think of one Firebird owner out there who thinks "Geez....I wish this thing had a 4 cylinder instead of this stupid V8."


I think the disconnect here is that what Charlie thinks is cool for Pontiac does not equal what Pontiac enthusiast think is cool for Pontiac.

I would personally love to see Pontiac aimed at Infinity honestly.

Firebird with a 4 cylinder ecotec?

Are you guys on crack?? seriously...

I dont think you're going to pull of a Firebird with a 4cyl unless its got two of them strapped together...

I think the car being described would be good for Pontiac, but I dont think that name would be good for it.

Put me down as one of those people who would reject it! Pontiac probably needs this car, BUT if they name it Firebird, THAT'LL be the biggest mistake that they could make! The uproar from the Firebird fans would be DEAFENING! Just call it a G7 & call it a day.

I think the car being described would be good for Pontiac, but I dont think that name would be good for it.
agree 100%

thats awsome:bow:

I think the disconnect here is that what Charlie thinks is cool for Pontiac does not equal what Pontiac enthusiast think is cool for Pontiac.



Pontiac enthusiast? Who judges who the Pontiac enthusiasts are?

Who are the true enthusiasts?
Are they the ones that think GM should spend several hundred million dollars, to produce a Pontiac clone to the Camaro, aimed directly at the Camaro's market - which would end up selling in low volume and cannabalise Camaro?

Or are the true enthusiasts the ones who think Pontiac should have something excitingly different, so that they can conquer new markets - and possibly survive.

Hey, who knows.

All I know is, this Pontiac enthusiast was downshifting GTO Hurst Dualgate shifters, and watching T/A shaker hoodscoops shake, since before most of you were born.

Many of your posts have me doubting just how much of a Pontiac enthusiast you are. Sometimes it seems like you are more a "Make Pontiac different from Chevy in anyway possible as long as it also does not perform better" enthusiast.

You seem willing to push ideas like 4 cylinder Firebird, and 4 door GTO's when it comes to Pontiac. Yet when it came to the Camaro, you were the most strict contructionist there was.

Again...if GM was thinking of slapping a 4 cylinder only in the Camaro...you would be wigging out, and you know it.

I don't think a high feature/Turbo V6 Firebird aimed at the G35 market would hurt Camaro at all. My only rpoblem with the whole idea is the Ecotech only part. As soon as you mention Ecotech and Firebird in the same sentence...90% of Firebird enthusiasts will either stop listening or get VERY angry.

BTW, I am 25 and have owned 7 Pontiac's, including 3 Firebirds (including 2 second gen Firebirds..and yes one with the dual gate hurst shifter;))...so I think I qualify as somewhat a Pontiac enthusiast...and exactly the buyer Pontiac would target with this new Firebird.

Pontiac enthusiast? Who judges who the Pontiac enthusiasts are?

Who are the true enthusiasts?
Are they the ones that think GM should spend several hundred million dollars, to produce a Pontiac clone to the Camaro, aimed directly at the Camaro's market - which would end up selling in low volume and cannabalise Camaro?

Or are the true enthusiasts the ones who think Pontiac should have something excitingly different, so that they can conquer new markets - and possibly survive.

Hey, who knows.

All I know is, this Pontiac enthusiast was downshifting GTO Hurst Dualgate shifters, and watching T/A shaker hoodscoops shake, since before most of you were born.

I don't think a high feature/Turbo V6 Firebird aimed at the G35 market would hurt Camaro at all.
I don't disagree. In fact, I was flamed pretty heavily when I proposed such a car. But no such car will be coming for Pontiac.

As soon as you mention Ecotech and Firebird in the same sentence...90% of Firebird enthusiasts will either stop listening or get VERY angry.


I really think that's an overstatement.

The way I see it, there are not enough traditional Firebird enthusiasts, to support a traditional Firebird, especially when a well executed Camaro exists.

Firebird with a 4 cylinder ecotec?

Are you guys on crack?? seriously...

maybe you could but there are tons of others that would think it is a disgrace to the name.

They went for a turbo V6 Trans Am & sat pat when Firebirds started looking like 4 passenger Corvettes. :shrug:

Reverse it, and put the Camaro in it's place. How many of use would be thrilled if Camaro was bought back as a compact, RWD, 2+2 with and roided up Ecotech...

I know what you're saying Branden. But consider that while Camaro went through a coupe then a low slung phase, it always had a V8 as top power & didn't resemble something else. Again, no so with Firebird.



Pontiac enthusiast? Who judges who the Pontiac enthusiasts are?

Who are the true enthusiasts?
Are they the ones that think GM should spend several hundred million dollars, to produce a Pontiac clone to the Camaro, aimed directly at the Camaro's market - which would end up selling in low volume and cannabalise Camaro?

Or are the true enthusiasts the ones who think Pontiac should have something excitingly different, so that they can conquer new markets - and possibly survive.

Hey, who knows.

All I know is, this Pontiac enthusiast was downshifting GTO Hurst Dualgate shifters, and watching T/A shaker hoodscoops shake, since before most of you were born.

You speaka my language. :)


Many of your posts have me doubting just how much of a Pontiac enthusiast you are. Sometimes it seems like you are more a "Make Pontiac different from Chevy in anyway possible as long as it also does not perform better" enthusiast.

You seem willing to push ideas like 4 cylinder Firebird, and 4 door GTO's when it comes to Pontiac. Yet when it came to the Camaro, you were the most strict contructionist there was.

...BTW, I am 25 and have owned 7 Pontiac's, including 3 Firebirds (including 2 second gen Firebirds..and yes one with the dual gate hurst shifter;))...so I think I qualify as somewhat a Pontiac enthusiast...and exactly the buyer Pontiac would target with this new Firebird.

There has never been a 4 door GTOs, however there has been 4 cylinder Firebirds. ;)

All things aside, GM made a Trans Am concept car out of one of the last 4th gens they had around. I don't have time to look for it (I'm sure someone else does :)), but it had the shaker hoodscoop, the ducktail spoiler, fender heat extractors, and call to mind the Trans Ams of the 70s. In my minds eye, THAT is a Firebird.

For the record, TOP Firebirds have traditionally been above top Camaros. either in engine size, performance, handling, looks, or a combination of, or all the above. While Camaro was about budget performance, Firebird was more for the showoffs.... and the reason why Firebird fans (though not great in numbers) are extremely enthusiastic about their car.

That said, I think if we stop & think about this for a second, we all know GM isn't going to turn a Kappa-like chassis and make it LS2 capable, let alone the "next gen", more powerful V8. Sure, you can physically fit the engine into any compartment that can handle an I4 or a V6. But the rest of the Kappa will need work, and by the end of the day, you'll wind up with another Corvette chassis.

GM is "rumored" (winkie included) to be working on a V6 engine that has over 300 horses. I don't see any problem whatsoever having this engine, backed by a 6 speed, in a 3200 pound car (about as light as the old LX 5.0 Mustang notchback), that carries an evolution of the 4th gen body wearing the Firebird name if it performed on par or better than the 400+ horse Camaro. Especially if it's top model carried a turbocharger which would send it to at least 400.

(Disclaimer: I'm not making any hints about any potential car, so please, no one read it that way. :lol: )

But I think there is a difference in perception between a 300HP V6 and a 300HP I4. The feeling seems to be 6 > 4, so the 6 would be the more desirable motor.

I know what you're saying Branden. But consider that while Camaro went through a coupe then a low slung phase, it always had a V8 as top power & didn't resemble something else. Again, no so with Firebird.

I'm not the greatest expert on Firebird history, although I consider myself an enthusiast, but the only time I can recall that the Firebird did not have a V8 as top power was for the 1989 TTA. But V8s, even though crappy in comparison, were still available. I do agree that Firebird has always been 'better' than Camaro though ;)

Personally, I would withold judgment on a Kappa derived Firebird until I actually say the performance data. I would however be slightly more skeptical of the vehicle's success if it was slated to be Ecotec only than if it was to recieve a Nissan-ish V6 as the top powerplant.

I'm not the greatest expert on Firebird history, although I consider myself an enthusiast, but the only time I can recall that the Firebird did not have a V8 as top power was for the 1989 TTA. But V8s, even though crappy in comparison, were still available. I do agree that Firebird has always been 'better' than Camaro though ;)



That was my reaction too. Unless I'm overlooking something, the '89 TTAs were the only exception to not having a top engine option as a V8. One year supercedes what was established by the other 34?

It sure would be great to have a traditional Firebird again. In fact, personally, I wish they could’ve kept updating the Pontiac V8. A T/A 6.6 or Turbo T/A 4.9, with fuel injection, modern computer controls and other updates, would be so cool for a modern Firebird. I don’t know how they would fit a shaker hoodscoop to such updated engines, but if they wanted a REAL Trans Am....they’d just HAVE to do it.

Unfortunately, that’s just fantasy. GM couldn’t justify Firebird being this unique, (as in having unique engines, etc.), even when it sold 200,000 units per year.

So, where are we now? We’re at a point, where there is a possibility that Pontiac could perhaps have access to a new and exciting line of relatively compact, RWD cars. What we’re talking about here is a “game changer”. A rare opportunity for a division to remake itself, and to do it successfully.

IF as part of this program, Pontiac has access to a 2+2 coupe/hatchback, and doesn’t dip into the Firebird’s rich heritage - in some way or form - to promote it, well....that’s just plain stupid. An opportunity wasted to reignite a unique personality for this car, which it hasn’t had since 1981.

That's where I stand. If somehow that makes some of you feel that this makes me a non-enthusiast, well so be it.

Seems to me folks are forgetting that somebody has already proved the LS7 fits in a Solstice. :D

IF as part of this program, Pontiac has access to a 2+2 coupe/hatchback, and doesn’t dip into the Firebird’s rich heritage - in some way or form - to promote it, well.why does it have to be called firebird? can it not get a new name and succeed?

Being 36, and having been "into" cars since I could hold a Hot Wheel ... it seems to me "Firebird" enthusiasts are actually "Trans Am" enthusiasts for the most part (maybe some "Formula" enthusiasts out there). I don't recall anyone referring to their cars as "Firebird Trans Ams." It was always just "Trans Am" or "TA", and everyone knew exactly what "muscle car" you drove.

The name Firebird did not denote "muscle car" similar to Camaro in my experience, TA did however. Maybe Firebird did when it first hit the scene (still in diapers then), but it certainly did not from Smokey & the Bandit until the present.

Sounds like a good plan to me, using Firebird that is on a Kappa 2+2. Little bit of heritage, and a true RWD alternative to the Camaro and Monte Carlo.

It sure would be great to have a traditional Firebird again. In fact, personally, I wish they could’ve kept updating the Pontiac V8. A T/A 6.6 or Turbo T/A 4.9, with fuel injection, modern computer controls and other updates, would be so cool for a modern Firebird. I don’t know how they would fit a shaker hoodscoop to such updated engines, but if they wanted a REAL Trans Am....they’d just HAVE to do it.

Unfortunately, that’s just fantasy. GM couldn’t justify Firebird being this unique, (as in having unique engines, etc.), even when it sold 200,000 units per year.

So, where are we now? We’re at a point, where there is a possibility that Pontiac could perhaps have access to a new and exciting line of relatively compact, RWD cars. What we’re talking about here is a “game changer”. A rare opportunity for a division to remake itself, and to do it successfully.

IF as part of this program, Pontiac has access to a 2+2 coupe/hatchback, and doesn’t dip into the Firebird’s rich heritage - in some way or form - to promote it, well....that’s just plain stupid. An opportunity wasted to reignite a unique personality for this car, which it hasn’t had since 1981.

That's where I stand. If somehow that makes some of you feel that this makes me a non-enthusiast, well so be it.
I agree with Charlie, and I am not an old fart like he is.:p

So, where are we now? We’re at a point, where there is a possibility that Pontiac could perhaps have access to a new and exciting line of relatively compact, RWD cars. What we’re talking about here is a “game changer”. A rare opportunity for a division to remake itself, and to do it successfully.

Im all for that. That sounds like what should be on the lot as apposed to the rebadged Cobalt.

IF as part of this program, Pontiac has access to a 2+2 coupe/hatchback, and doesn’t dip into the Firebird’s rich heritage - in some way or form - to promote it, well....that’s just plain stupid. An opportunity wasted to reignite a unique personality for this car, which it hasn’t had since 1981

I just dont think that follows. You're telling me that something completely NEW should be equated with something very OLD when its a rather questionable fit.

Then we'll wind up with something that isnt what it was nor what it could have been. Yes similiar things have happened in the past with varying results... and perhaps this is one of those cases where the strength of product will negate all that, but if the product is so strong why do we need to hack up another one?

Add to that how much equity does Firebird have without Trans Am? You get the good you get all that baggage with it, doesent seem worth it.

When it was suggested that Firebird be a definitively upscale Camaro, perhaps with AWD or FIV6 it was scoffed at. I distinctly remember being told that even IF cost was no object it made no sense to use a name that brought to mind mullets in order to move a brand in a different direction. How is this different?

In reply to your post Guy, yes a 4cyl. was the standard engine for the base model of BOTH the Firebird AND Camaro at the beginning of the 3rd gens. run. BUT it proved so unpopular with the buyers of BOTH cars that G.M. dropped it from the f-body lineup after 3 years. How many 4 cyl. f-bods do you see anywhere today? Even at the f-bod meets? BTW, I hear you about the 4 seat Corvette argument & I agree that G.M. won't go that route. Oh, and not all of us "enthusiasts" are strictly T/A fans. The Trans Am sales didn't start taking off until the '73 model year when performance was already into a rapid decline & everyone was getting into the "If you can't BE fast , then at least LOOK like you can." mindset. (Hmmm, ricer mentality in the '70's?) Prior to that, the performance banner was being waved, (either exclusively or primarily) by the 400, H.O., & Formula. But, in any event, I think this is a moot point. The name is dead, & if it can't be brought back right, then let it rest in it's grave. JMO.

Add to that how much equity does Firebird have without Trans Am? You get the good you get all that baggage with it, doesent seem worth it.



I think it has plenty of equity. Certainly more than, oh say, G7.

Why not use 2 + 2? another name that would have plenty of credibility with old school Pontiac geeks like myself, old sports car fans, and would probably get the attention of the targeted buyers.

Being 36, and having been "into" cars since I could hold a Hot Wheel ... it seems to me "Firebird" enthusiasts are actually "Trans Am" enthusiasts for the most part (maybe some "Formula" enthusiasts out there). I don't recall anyone referring to their cars as "Firebird Trans Ams." It was always just "Trans Am" or "TA", and everyone knew exactly what "muscle car" you drove.

The name Firebird did not denote "muscle car" similar to Camaro in my experience, TA did however. Maybe Firebird did when it first hit the scene (still in diapers then), but it certainly did not from Smokey & the Bandit until the present.

Today's award for "Hitting the nail squarely on the head from 50 paces" goes to.......

jwade95Z, IMO, you hit a bullseye. When you look at the breakdown of Firdbird sales (and I'm betting, the cars owned Firebird's greatest fans) you're dead on the money I'd say. :cool:

Today's award for "Hitting the nail squarely on the head from 50 paces" goes to.......

jwade95Z, IMO, you hit a bullseye. When you look at the breakdown of Firdbird sales (and I'm betting, the cars owned Firebird's greatest fans) you're dead on the money I'd say. :cool:


What do you call this uplevel Firebird's uplevel model then? You can't half dip into the heritage pot.

Regardless of of what some people say here....a four cylinder only Firebird is a mistake waiting to happen. It is a way to take a what could be a great car and strap some baggage on it that will cause it to get bad mounthed by old Firebird enthusiasts, and the press.

Let me ask this question in closing. Assuming price is equal....who would buy this four banger Firebird over a Camaro? Making a car different for the sake of it makes no sense.

What do you call this uplevel Firebird's uplevel model then? You can't half dip into the heritage pot.

Regardless of of what some people say here....a four cylinder only Firebird is a mistake waiting to happen. It is a way to take a what could be a great car and strap some baggage on it that will cause it to get bad mounthed by old Firebird enthusiasts, and the press.

Let me ask this question in closing. Assuming price is equal....who would buy this four banger Firebird over a Camaro? Making a car different for the sake of it makes no sense.

Again, I understand what you're saying, and to be perfectly honest, I really don't believe for a moment we'll see a turbo-Ecotec-as-top-power Firebird. But I don't believe we'll see an LSx powered Kappa as a Firebird either.

There are two things that have been said that I feel is worth noting:

1st, there was Bob Lutz saying that "We're not going to do that car" in answering a question about a Camaro based Firebird after saying it was looked at. Why did he feel the need to say "that" car?

It may sound like nothing, but Bob Lutz (like Fbodfather) is very good with "word-dance". When something isn't in the cards, Lutz will say "it's not planned" or, as he said back in 2003: "Firebird's day is over".


The other thing worth noting is an interview Dennis Mooney gave in which he essentially spilled the beans that GM is currently planning a small RWD chassis that will serve as a basis of a sports sedan targeted for 2010 calendar year. Something due out that soon & Holden already campaigning to make this car means it's pretty well along. He mentioned that this car wouldn't have a V8, but rather a (HF) V6, and a structure that targets BMW's 3 series.


Now think about this possibility (and aside of a Kappa based RWD coupe, this is pure speculation):

A small 4 cylinder Solstice coupe.
A midsized (G6 sized) V6 coupe, called Firebird.
A large V8 powered coupe called "GTO"

meanwhile, over at Chevy........

A Camaro that fits in between Pontiac's V6 coupe & GTO, and...
A FWD Cobalt that fits in between the Solstice and Pontiac's V6 coupe.

and finally....
An "Arts & Science" styled, Northstar powered "GTO" luxury coupe for Cadillac.
A drop top, "Velite" styled "GTO" for Buick.
And finally, a "GTO" for Chevrolet.



(Though it may seem like alot of "GTO" coupes, if GM found a way to make each profitable at 12-30K annually depending on price... pretty likely IMO... it would be pretty straightforward to do)

Again, I understand what you're saying, and to be perfectly honest, I really don't believe for a moment we'll see a turbo-Ecotec-as-top-power Firebird. But I don't believe we'll see an LSx powered Kappa as a Firebird either.

There are two things that have been said that I feel is worth noting:

1st, there was Bob Lutz saying that "We're not going to do that car" in answering a question about a Camaro based Firebird after saying it was looked at. Why did he feel the need to say "that" car?

It may sound like nothing, but Bob Lutz (like Fbodfather) is very good with "word-dance". When something isn't in the cards, Lutz will say "it's not planned" or, as he said back in 2003: "Firebird's day is over".


The other thing worth noting is an interview Dennis Mooney gave in which he essentially spilled the beans that GM is currently planning a small RWD chassis that will serve as a basis of a sports sedan targeted for 2010 calendar year. Something due out that soon & Holden already campaigning to make this car means it's pretty well along. He mentioned that this car wouldn't have a V8, but rather a (HF) V6, and a structure that targets BMW's 3 series.


Now think about this possibility (and aside of a Kappa based RWD coupe, this is pure speculation):

A small 4 cylinder Solstice coupe.
A midsized (G6 sized) V6 coupe, called Firebird.
A large V8 powered coupe called "GTO"

meanwhile, over at Chevy........

A Camaro that fits in between Pontiac's V6 coupe & GTO, and...
A FWD Cobalt that fits in between the Solstice and Pontiac's V6 coupe.

and finally....
An "Arts & Science" styled, Northstar powered "GTO" luxury coupe for Cadillac.
A drop top, "Velite" styled "GTO" for Buick.
And finally, a "GTO" for Chevrolet.



(Though it may seem like alot of "GTO" coupes, if GM found a way to make each profitable at 12-30K annually depending on price... pretty likely IMO... it would be pretty straightforward to do)


I have no issue with a V6 Firebird...especially a nice high tech one. 4 cylinder only would be terrible though.

I think it has plenty of equity. Certainly more than, oh say, G7.

What doesen't have more equity then a random letter infront of a digit that roughly correlates to the vehicles size? :rolleyes:

A midsized (G6 sized) V6 coupe, called Firebird.

Perhaps if G6 were called Grand Am it wouldn't be neccesary to rebuild it on the opposite wheels and call it Firebird. :think:

I was under the impression this kappa based car would be slightly smaller, Charlie also just told us V6 was out? If Cadillacs HO V6 or some variant is a possibility for Camaro why is this different?

And lastly... Thats a lot of GTO... :o

Now think about this possibility (and aside of a Kappa based RWD coupe, this is pure speculation):

A small 4 cylinder Solstice coupe.
A midsized (G6 sized) V6 coupe, called Firebird.
A large V8 powered coupe called "GTO"


I can live with that; it sounds appropriate and gives each model enough room to spread its legs with up-level variants (and no 4 cyl in Firebird to avoid overlap with Solstice and I guess no GTO V8 in Firebird). But if using the name "Firebird" it better be easily identifiable as such and not a G6ish coupe with BMW 3-series grill and anonymous design language. I'm not talking "Batmobile" TA; there are plenty of more subtle cues to build on.


meanwhile, over at Chevy........

A Camaro that fits in between Pontiac's V6 coupe & GTO, and...
A FWD Cobalt that fits in between the Solstice and Pontiac's V6 coupe.


Cobalt slotted higher than Solstice?? Just what do you propose the Solstice coupe will sell for? I guess I always pictured it as equally priced with the roadster version if not more expensive as a more "hardcore" alternative.

And Pontiac dealers are still going to want an entry level car offering around $15K. The current G5 Cobalt can't be a longterm solution I hope.


and finally....
An "Arts & Science" styled, Northstar powered "GTO" luxury coupe for Cadillac.
A drop top, "Velite" styled "GTO" for Buick.
And finally, a "GTO" for Chevrolet.

(Though it may seem like alot of "GTO" coupes, if GM found a way to make each profitable at 12-30K annually depending on price... pretty likely IMO... it would be pretty straightforward to do)

Then why not do a "Camaro" for Pontiac? How do you differentiate a Pontiac GTO from a Chevy version? Will the Pontiac GTO be offered as a convertible (most likely, since you want to cover cost for Velite's top, right?) and if so, doesn't that make the Velite a cushy, weaker and more expensive version of a GTO--which is also sold at the same dealership? Does Cadillac really even need one of these? How many domestic coupes does the market support in this price range of $30-45K?

These seem like valid points to me, even if the cars aren't easily identifiable as having the same underpinnings. Different skin and engine options doesn't go that far, does it?

Now think about this possibility (and aside of a Kappa based RWD coupe, this is pure speculation):

A small 4 cylinder Solstice coupe.
A midsized (G6 sized) V6 coupe, called Firebird.
A large V8 powered coupe called "GTO"

meanwhile, over at Chevy........

A Camaro that fits in between Pontiac's V6 coupe & GTO, and...
A FWD Cobalt that fits in between the Solstice and Pontiac's V6 coupe.

and finally....
An "Arts & Science" styled, Northstar powered "GTO" luxury coupe for Cadillac.
A drop top, "Velite" styled "GTO" for Buick.
And finally, a "GTO" for Chevrolet.



(Though it may seem like alot of "GTO" coupes, if GM found a way to make each profitable at 12-30K annually depending on price... pretty likely IMO... it would be pretty straightforward to do)

Holy crap, Guy. Where's the Saturn and GMC GTO? ;)

^ I have to agree with that.^ To use the Camaro argument, why split the development resources between 4 models when you can split it between 2 & cover the same market? Make a GTO for the performance car & then either a Caddy or Buick for the lux version. That way instead of relying on small pieces (fascias, wheels, dash, & steering wheel) to define each (which is likely what you would get with a 4 way). You could at least get a front clip if not a whole body. And, of course, different engines. The problem would be in deciding who gets the lux version. Caddy may not need it, & Buick (which could use it) might have a problem moving it if it sits on the same lots as Goats. I guess the trick would be in how much different you could make the inside & outside look as well as the feature content.

Caddy will have it's own coupe on Sigma.

If you really wanna get back to the roots of the firebird .
It was supposed to be called a banshee that looked alot like a corvette.
but this car was never put into production because it would compete against the "flagship".
This car was forced to be put onto the camaro platform.
If it would return it should follow its roots back to a camaro platform.
If the firebird would ever return with a top level 4 cyl, I WOULD RATHER BUY A MUSTANG, and call it a day.
The camaro never did it for me. It was always too boring and too plain-Jane.
The firebird always had a better looking interior.
Drive a 1st or 2nd gen camaro- z/28 then drive a 1st or 2nd gen t/a and you tell me what the difference is.
If the firebird looks like this and has the LS2,
http://images.leftlanenews.com/content/firebird.jpg
I will buy it tomorow!

Yea, I would put money down on that car today. It would make sense, the '69 is by far the most popular camaro, while the 77 is the most popular T/A.

Sure is a lotta talk from those in the know on a new firebird....makes me think maybe this is more than just selling 2nd gen T-shirts and models?

Yea, I would put money down on that car today. It would make sense, the '69 is by far the most popular camaro, while the 77 is the most popular T/A.

Sure is a lotta talk from those in the know on a new firebird....makes me think maybe this is more than just selling 2nd gen T-shirts and models?

Just for the record, this Firebird stuff is mostly speculation.

Of course Cadillac needs a coupe. Lexus is the only brand without a 2+2 and the IS coupe is on the way. Theres will be on Sigma and be pretty different.

CTS is getting AWD compatible sigma-wide, so even if it is a "CTC" its probably gonna be pretty big and lux, more STC, or 650i then GTO.

Malibu will probably become the current Impala and that will be bigger and on Zeta.. So a Chevy GTO would be between that and Camaro. While the current Monte Carlo is pretty long in the tooth I dont know who wont buy it as a Pontiac but will as a Chevy.

Velite I would assume would be the only Vert maybe hardtop, and could probably sell next to GTO since they seem to have fairly conservative sales numbers in mind.

As for this kappa... I think it sounds great... As Pursuit or Tempest or Banshee... not Firebird. :no:

As for this kappa... I think it sounds great... As Pursuit or Tempest or Banshee... not Firebird. :no:


Poll time. ;)

Its kinda funny when there is a rival to the almighty Chevy they want to gut a legend and make it 1/2 of what it should be. It baffles me how GM is putting all of its eggs into Chevy and Cadillac and 1/2 that into what used to be popular brands. Talk about shooting yourself in the foot. Now if they could only pull their heads out of their arses get rid of saturn and make the sky the solstice and actually put some design into their cars and not make them look like a Toyota, GM might have a future.

If they even THINK about down sizing the Firbird/TA... I will cry!:cry: ... The Firebird/Camaro have allways been cousin cars. Therefore, built on the same platform. None of this turbo 4, sky lookin "firebird' buisness. It would be a DAM shame for them to demote a legend to something of that calibur!

The Firebird is a muscle car! Allways has been and BETTER still be. If I like it better than the Camaro, I'll get it instead.

Are they releasing ideas/concepts about this yet? I'm a bit behind on some of this. I really don't frequent this room as much as I should.

Caddy will have it's own coupe on Sigma.

Don't you think a Caddy coupe is going to be $40+k when all is said and done? I know you don't see a market between the Camaro and the Caddy for a GTO, but I can see how they would differentiate them.

Camaro in the upper twenties/low thirties
GTO in the low to mid thirties
Caddy in the upper thirties/low forties

The GTO and Caddy would have more room (i.e. Real Back Seat) than the Camaro.
The Caddy would have more luxury but maybe less performance than the GTO (if the CTS-V gets the LS2 for $50k, don't tell me a coupe is gonna be less and still have an LSx-series motor in it)...

They would all obviously be styled way differently from each other. Differentiation on size, performance, price, and features.

Just thinking out loud, no real product knowledge here/being intimated.

Don't you think a Caddy coupe is going to be $40+k when all is said and done? I know you don't see a market between the Camaro and the Caddy for a GTO, but I can see how they would differentiate them.

Camaro in the upper twenties/low thirties
GTO in the low to mid thirties
Caddy in the upper thirties/low forties

The GTO and Caddy would have more room (i.e. Real Back Seat) than the Camaro.
The Caddy would have more luxury but maybe less performance than the GTO (if the CTS-V gets the LS2 for $50k, don't tell me a coupe is gonna be less and still have an LSx-series motor in it)...

They would all obviously be styled way differently from each other. Differentiation on size, performance, price, and features.

Just thinking out loud, no real product knowledge here/being intimated.

I think the Caddy coupe will fall into the same price range as the rest of the CTS line-up. Let's call it low 30's and into the 50's. Camaro will probably be low 20's to high 30's.

And don't bet on CTS (or it's coupe), not having as much performance as any theoretical GTO. The next gen CTS-V won't be getting the LS2. No sir. What it WILL be getting will be mind numbing. :eek:

And don't bet on CTS (or it's coupe), not having as much performance as any theoretical GTO. The next gen CTS-V won't be getting the LS2. No sir. What it WILL be getting will be mind numbing. :eek:
MORE INFO PLEASE?!

All you need to know is start saving your pennies. :p