Distributor off a Tooth?

Quick question. After a heads and cam swap, if the distributor is put in a tooth or two off, could that cause the car to run like complete and utter crap? Friend and I worked on my car a few weeks ago, and we are trying to hunt down why its not running good, and he mentioned when he put in the dizzy again, he rotated the oil pump slot to get it to line up right :bang:

I would think you would keep that exactly where it was to use as a reference, so that you couldnt mess up the positioning of the distributor.

Anyways, I want to tear into that this weekend or next...whenever I get home from college, what do you guys think?

Check the timming if it's off a notch the time will be off. You could bring it into time again by turning the distributor if you have room. If it's off better to take it out and relocate.

check the timing with a timing light first and foremost....remember to disconnect the EST wire first.

check the timing with a timing light first and foremost....remember to disconnect the EST wire first.


Yeah, I did all that already, I've done pretty much everything (timing, made sure the new plugs I got werent burnt, custom chip, datalogging, relashing valves, ect.) and I still cant find out why my car is running so poorly, and missing like crazy. Timing is pegged at 6* but I've read that you cant compensate for a misaligned distributor through timing.

set your motor to TDC firing number 1,
the rotor should point at the number 1 hole

set your motor to TDC firing number 1,
the rotor should point at the number 1 hole

I know, this is what I will be checking for.

i recently went thru this and my dizzy was off one tooth and ran like crap. repositioned it and everything was fine.

Again, you cant compensate a tooth being off with timing correct?

you can compensate as long as the timing light shows you're firing on #1 then you are, no way around that. as long as the distributor has enough wiggle room to rotate far enough you can be one tooth or 2 teeth on some dizzys and still be fine.

you can compensate as long as the timing light shows you're firing on #1 then you are, no way around that. as long as the distributor has enough wiggle room to rotate far enough you can be one tooth or 2 teeth on some dizzys and still be fine.

Yes your right, as far as firing on number one, but your cam timing will be off +/-. I think this is what LesPaulGoth is guestioning. If for say you jump a tooth on the timing chain you can get the car running to get home this way. It will run fine, just maybe not as much power, but it will work.

As long as you install the distributor with the motor at #1 TDC and the rotor pointing to #1, then you installed it correctly. After that you just set base timing and your done. Make sure your wires are in the correct spots. A friend of mine was having some issues with a tbi motor of his after a tune up and he accidently put all the wires one spot off. Just something to double check.

Well, to many other's estimation, I pulled off my distributor cap, and what did I find? Rotor was off 180 degrees =/. Guess I had the motor on the exhast stroke when I put it in. I shot down this idea a few times though because I have seen cars do this and then not even be able to start, let alone be able to drive.

But, the rotor looks like it might be off the #1 terminal ever so slightly, but it looks like there will be room to turn the cap to compensate for this.

Thanks for your input guys, we'll see what happens tomorrow when I can get back home!

it doesn't matter where the rotor points when you drop it in. so long as you are on the compression stroke for #1, where ever the rotor points is where you put the #1 plug wire. in a SBC V8, you cannot be 'a tooth off' with the distributor.

First off, I sincerely HOPE you didn't advance your cam 6* for "more torque", right? Because I'm gay and did that not realizing that it came pre-advanced
6*, and REALLY f*cked up my timing. If that's not the case, try turning the distributor while the car is running. Try turning left and right until it runs properly. Let us know if that helps any.

Yes your right, as far as firing on number one, but your cam timing will be off +/-. I think this is what LesPaulGoth is guestioning. If for say you jump a tooth on the timing chain you can get the car running to get home this way. It will run fine, just maybe not as much power, but it will work.

your cam timing is controlled by the timing chain and gears, not the distributor.

Well guys, I put the distributor back to where I *thought* was the right way, which would have the rotor pointing to the #1 terminal. Now it will DEFINATELY not start =/. It just backfires and pops when you try to.

Now, why in the world would the distributor do this on the #1 terminal, and SOMEWHAT run when pointing to the #6 terminal? This is starting to not make any sense.




Now, I have thought a few things over:

-When I put the distributor in, I must have done it on the exhaust stroke by mistake, which is why it was running while the rotor was pointing to the #6 terminal, which means...

-Maybe I put the cam in on the exhaust stroke? The cam was put in with the #1 cylinder at TDC, but is there a way that maybe when the heads were put back on, the cam got set to the exhaust stroke instead of the compression stroke? But then for this to happen, the dots would have to have been super mis-aligned, which I know they are not, BUT...

-How is the distributor being 180 out keeping the car running, and having it in the "right way" not? This seems impossible to me!


I have tried multiple amounts of timing in either direction, checked, rechecked, and rechecked the order of the plug wires, and I cannot for the life of me get this car to hold an idle, or just run normal. It pretty much "limps" for lack of a better word. This isn't marginal "hey I dont think my car is making as much power as it should", it is "hey, I am flooring it and my car feels like it is about to explode, and it still wont break 15mph, and it still wont shift...oh wait there it is."


Can someone verify my theories here?

ok, stop right here and do this. remove the distributor cap and #1 spark plug. have someone turn the motor over while you put your finger over the plug hole. when compression starts to push your finger off, that's the compression stroke for #1. now, look at the timing mark on the balancer and line it up with the 0* mark on the tab. now, look where the rotor is pointing. this is where you will put the #1 plug wire. put the wires in order in a clockwise 18436572. now, this will get you close. start the car with EST unplugged. set timing to 6* BTDC.

my next suggestion is you have the distributor in correctly and timed correctly. you may have misadjusted valves. this will make it run poorly as well. this is how i set valve lash per cylinder http://centralfloridastreetcars.com/rockerswap.htm

I did what you said in your first post earlier today, but I pulled all the plugs (to relieve compression) and waited until the intake valve lifted and then closed, and then marked 0* on the timing tab to get TDC on the compression stroke. The rotor was then set to the #1 terminal, and this is the point where we buttoned it up and tryed again, but got absolutely nothing, just popping and backfiring when trying to start it up, indicating a reversed distributor.

I did your second suggestion two weeks ago, and lashed them to spec, they couldnt be more dead on.


See how I am chasing my tail here?




UPDATE!:

I have decided to offer a reward to anyone that can come to Hamilton, NJ and fix my car. The winner will get a 30 pack of his or her (preferably her) choice of beer. :thumb:

definitely sounds like the dist. is in 180* out. what year is your car?

Read the thread thus far, you'll see what I'm getting at here. It's a 1990.

brings me to my third suggestion and what another person was hinting at. are you absolutely positive the lined the dots up on the gears correctly? if you are a tooth off, it will run like crap no matter what you do.

tech tip: when you line up the dots (cam 6 o'clock) and crank (12 o'clock). this puts you at 6 compression. you are supposed to turn an additional one crank turn to get on #1 compression.

pic of how the dots are supposed to line up.
http://www.stealthram.com/familypics/formula/motordamage/timingchain.jpg

tech tip: when you line up the dots (cam 6 o'clock) and crank (12 o'clock). this puts you at 6 compression. you are supposed to turn an additional one crank turn to get on #1 compression.




Really now? Are you sure? I never heard of this, I did not turn another turn, I left the dots lined up. Would you say this is it then?

your cam timing is controlled by the timing chain and gears, not the distributor.

This is true as I made mention of a jumped tooth on the chain, but the relationship of the cam (TDC), to fire on the distributor will be off slightly, if the dizzy is off a tooth.

definitely sounds like the dist. is in 180* out. what year is your car?

Thats more or less what I was getting at w/out actually saying it. That's why I suggested turning the distributor (while still IN the car..) w/ the car running to see if the running condition adjusted.

brings me to my third suggestion and what another person was hinting at. are you absolutely positive the lined the dots up on the gears correctly? if you are a tooth off, it will run like crap no matter what you do.


Thats what I was saying too. If you advanced that cam any, it's gonna run like crap because the cam came pre-advanced so the dots MUST be lining up :)

Yeah, I am going to re-check the positioning of the cam next, but mrr23 said that the dots had to be lined up, and THEN you turn the engine over one more time and put the chain on? Someone verify this for me because I definately did not do this, I just lined them up and put on the chain. Would this explain why my distributor works backwards?

^What?? I put the chain on when the dots were matching too and my car ran great :think: I think what he's saying about cranking it over once is incorrect :)

Yeah thats what I figured...hmm.

line up the dots put the engine at TDC #6 cylinder if you were to drop the distributor in right away.....since i like beer i'll try to help

crank the motor over by hand until the intake valve opens, then closes completely, THEN turn the motor over until the balancer slot lines up with 0 on the timing tab. drop the distributor in with the rotor pointing toward #1. then turn the motor over watching the distributor move around again, when you start to feel a "puff" of air coming out of the spark plug hole continue turning the engine over to the balancer slot is shows again, is the rotor pointing towards #1 now? if so put the cap on and the valve cover back on and try to start. It helps having a buddy there, to point the timing light at the engine while cranking, to see if it is timed "close" enough to get the motor to fire. if the light is not flashing while you can see the slot, keep turning the dizzy back and forth until it can. remember clockwise advances and counter clockwise retards.

remember clockwise advances and counter clockwise retards.


I definately thought it was the other way around.

When you line the dots up on the timing gears AKA "dot to dot" you are on the exaust stroke of the #1 cylinder... The guy above told you right about turning the engine over one turn.. But you put the chain on when they are "dot to dot" When you turn the crank 1 time it turns the cam 1/2 of a turn, putting the engine on the comp. stroke of the #1 cylinder. Then both dots are in the 12 o'clock position. After you do this you drop in the dist. pointing somewhat to the #1 cylinder. make sure your #1 plug wire corresponds to this position. As said your timing can be fine tuned with rotating the dist. once in place. you advance the timing by turning counter clockwise, retard the timing by turning clockwise. hope this in some way helps.
Darin

Yeah that does help. I did not know that you had to turn it over one more time once the dots are lined up. That must be the issue. The cam is on the wrong stroke, but the distributor is dead on. I'll check it out.

But it still makes sense to me that a backwards cam, and a backwards distributor would cancel out and make the car run right. I tried the distributor in both ways, remember. Anyone want to verify this?

Update:

I lined up the dots on the gears, and the #1 cylinder is on the compression stroke.

Now, how do I go about fixing this? Would I have to turn the camshaft gear independantly of the crank to get it to sync up right once and for all?

if you put the dots on top of each other(dot to dot) (6 o'clock to 12 o'clock) put your chain on. Then rotate the crank one turn. the dots should both be at 12 o'clock. After that you are ready to drop your distributor in pointing somewhat toward #1 cylinder. Good luck...

if you put the dots on top of each other(dot to dot) (6 o'clock to 12 o'clock) put your chain on. Then rotate the crank one turn. the dots should both be at 12 o'clock. After that you are ready to drop your distributor in pointing somewhat toward #1 cylinder. Good luck...

When you line the dots up on the timing gears AKA "dot to dot" you are on the exaust stroke of the #1 cylinder... When you turn the crank 1 time it turns the cam 1/2 of a turn, putting the engine on the comp. stroke of the #1 cylinder. Then both dots are in the 12 o'clock position. After you do this you drop in the dist. pointing somewhat to the #1 cylinder.

When my dots are "dot to dot", I am on the COMPRESSION STROKE on the #1 cylinder, not the exhaust like you said I should be in the 2nd quote. I know this from watching the valves open and close on the #1 cylinder.

See how I am getting mixed up here? My car hates me :(

When you put the engine on compression strock all you did was to put #1 cyl. in the right possion. When you lined up the cam (dot to dot) the cam is set for exhast, this is why you have to turn one more time ( 6-12 o'clock)to put it back on compression strock.

When you put the engine on compression strock all you did was to put #1 cyl. in the right possion. When you lined up the cam (dot to dot) the cam is set for exhast, this is why you have to turn one more time ( 6-12 o'clock)to put it back on compression strock.
What he said....

Holy Moly reading this made my brain hurt.

If it were me starting over would be the thing to do.

1) remove distributor and timing chain.
2) bring #1 piston to TDC
2) line up cam and crank dots to dots.
3) install chain
4) rotate crank one turn which if I remember correctly brings the #1 piston to TDC again but at the top of the compression stroke. Bottom line is before re installing the distributor you want it at TDC #1 cylinder on compression stroke.
5) re install distributor with the rotor pointing to the #1 cylinder position, and replace dist cap. Approx pointing should be good enough.
6) make sure all spark plug wires are in their correct locations on the cap.
7) it should now fire up, squirt a bit of gas into the carb/throttle body to make sure it is not starving for fuel. If it tries to fire up but won't go rotate the cap a bit each way cranking. Try and remember where it was when you had in the approx location for #1 in case that doesn't work.
8) once it is running then time it according to procedure.

The above steps have worked for me numerous times and usually the engine fires to life right away.

Note to keep face away from carb/throttle body as it may backfire and spit flames you don't want to take a break to lick wounds.

Had the same problems. Tried all the aforementioned fixes with no luck. Then I happened to look at the bottom of the distributor and down the hole to see where it went. Turns out the bottom is keyed and fits into a slot into what I think is an oil pump or something. Anyway, this is what prevents the distributor from lining up the way you would like. To remedy:
1. Pull out distributor
2. Insert long standard screwdriver to realign slot in oil shaft. Shaft alignment is same as what you desire for rotor. I simply got it aligned somewhat prior to #1 plug.
3. Advance flywheel to 8 BTDC (2nd notch to left of 0 BTDC)
4. Replace distributor, reassemble everything and start
5. If it still doesn't work, line up 8 BTDC on flywheel one more time
6. Pull out distributor again (you're on the exhaust stroke)
6. While distributor is removed, rotate flywheel one complete turn and set to 8 BTDC again
7. Reinstall distributor, reassemble and start. This is what finally worked for us, after oh..10 or 12 attempts until I noticed the slot in the oil shaft

By the way, I like Mich Ultra :-)

Eric (Jake's Dad)

Had the same problems. Tried all the aforementioned fixes with no luck. Then I happened to look at the bottom of the distributor and down the hole to see where it went. Turns out the bottom is keyed and fits into a slot into what I think is an oil pump or something. Anyway, this is what prevents the distributor from lining up the way you would like. To remedy:
1. Pull out distributor
2. Insert long standard screwdriver to realign slot in oil shaft. Shaft alignment is same as what you desire for rotor. I simply got it aligned somewhat prior to #1 plug.
3. Advance flywheel to 8 BTDC (2nd notch to left of 0 BTDC)
4. Replace distributor, reassemble everything and start
5. If it still doesn't work, line up 8 BTDC on flywheel one more time
6. Pull out distributor again (you're on the exhaust stroke)
6. While distributor is removed, rotate flywheel one complete turn and set to 8 BTDC again
7. Reinstall distributor, reassemble and start. This is what finally worked for us, after oh..10 or 12 attempts until I noticed the slot in the oil shaft

By the way, I like Mich Ultra :-)

Eric (Jake's Dad)

Yeah, I thought that too, but I am getting very good oil pressure so I don't think this is the issue, as the oil pump would not be operating I believe. I found out that a few wires on the distributor module are chewed up and the rotor has aquired a ton of soot on the top of it so I think the distributor is just on it's way out all together. Gonna pick up a new one at autozone next time I am home.

without a cam in a bottom end only has 1 postion TDC,
not TDC compression and TDC exhaust, line up the dots, that is the most important thing,
if they are lined up you can't go wrong,

second I read somebody siad a sbc can't be a tooth off, it can, depending where the oil pump shaft was when you pulled the distributor,
also with fuel injection it is important the distributor goes in correctly and you don't just make it up with timing or moving wire postion,
the ecm calculates TDC with the distributor,


when you drop it in if the dissy doesn't seat completely on the oil pump shaft, apply light pressure to the top of the distributor and bar the motor it will drop in eventually

make sure you are going the right way around the dissy with the firing order, I've seen people get the right order but go the wrong way

18436572

Thanks, yeah all this has been done already, but to no avail =/. Like I said, I'm gonna get a brand new one because the wires going to the module underneath the cap are all chewed up. If that doesnt fix it, then the new one goes back, lol.

Just to make sure, you would know if the shaft wasnt lining up with the oil pump right? Like the distributor would just not seat correctly whatsoever is what I would assume. Because I lined it up and stabbed it in and it is seating correctly. I also have 45psi-ish of oil when the car is actually running, so I'm pretty sure the two are lining up.

Thanks, yeah all this has been done already, but to no avail =/. Like I said, I'm gonna get a brand new one because the wires going to the module underneath the cap are all chewed up. If that doesnt fix it, then the new one goes back, lol.

Just to make sure, you would know if the shaft wasnt lining up with the oil pump right? Like the distributor would just not seat correctly whatsoever is what I would assume. Because I lined it up and stabbed it in and it is seating correctly. I also have 45psi-ish of oil when the car is actually running, so I'm pretty sure the two are lining up.


If it sitting down right and the oil pressure is good without any weird noises I would expect that it is lined up correctly.