Horsepower Wars

Ford has been the first through the gate with the GT500. Assuming our timetables our correct, the Camaro and Challenger will be arriving in 2008 with their own high-performance models. Rumors of a 6.6L Hemi are swirling in the Challenger camp, with over 500 HP. Over here, we're kicking around the idea of the 6.2L supercharged LS9. we all love to speculate, so in Camaro trim, what do you think the LS9 is going to put out?

501 hp, just to make Mr. Shelby mad.

If you really want to piss him off, put a slightly less powerful motor in a significantly lighter car that'll run circles around his clunky looking, bloated nose heavy pig.

Are we claiming somehow that the Viper, Ford GT, and Z06 aren't participating in the horsepower wars? What about BMW's M cars, or AMGs?

GT500 may be the cheapest one yet... but the horsepower wars have been going on for a while now, and it is hardly the "first out of the gate".

I'm pegging the LS9 at 550bhp.

If you really want to piss him off, put a slightly less powerful motor in a significantly lighter car that'll run circles around his clunky looking, bloated nose heavy pig.

Well....
that "pig" can seriously outhandle your 94 Z, and that "pig" can outaccelerate anything else currently made in the US short of a Z06.

It may be a pig to ya, but it's one $#@*&%! hot pig. :lol:



As for the original question, I'm not sure it's going to be called the "LS9". That's probally reserved for the next expensive Z06 super engine.

Regarding output, I think the 500 number is probally in the ballpark. But we are still talking about an engine that's still 3 years from hitting the streets (it would be a 2nd year Camaro engine) so GM has enough time to even change directions and still certify an engine.

Compare 3 years away for Camaro to Chrysler's super Hemi that's less than 18 months away and the GT500 engine TODAY that has at least 100 extra horsepower safely built in without needing to modify a single internal part.

By the way things seem to be shaping up, I'm suspecting that the Shelby GT500 is going to have it's claim to fame in drag racing, the Challenger SRT is going to be a old style street muscle car (big, roomy, well riding, and pretty unbeatable in the "stop light grand prix"), and the Camaro Z28 is going to be a high powered race course car.

Top speed it probally going to run Challenger (SRT doesn't tend artificially govern their speeds.... SRT Magnums run over 170, and the super Hemi is going to have over 100 horses more!), Camaro Z28, and Shelby GT350 (SVT has been limiting their Mustangs to a Germany-like 155 mph for a decade, and probally won't change).

chevy needs to get off their ass and get the camaro back into it now, not let the ford and dodge boys have all their fun. im beggining to believe the camaro will fail, since the challenger and gt500 are beating out, how many people u think will give up waiting for a camaro and get one of those fast cars now?

chevy needs to get off their ass and get the camaro back into it now, not let the ford and dodge boys have all their fun. im beggining to believe the camaro will fail, since the challenger and gt500 are beating out, how many people u think will give up waiting for a camaro and get one of those fast cars now?

We're talking about cars that's going to be a very very small percentage of sales.

The GT500 is limited to about 10,000 models out of 160,000+ Mustangs.
The SRT Challenger will probally run a thousand out of 20,000 or so Challengers.
The Z28 is going to be a Z06 like car this round, meaning it's not exactly going to be everywhere.

Camaro ain't gonna fail because others have higher horsepower fringe cars out 1st. Camaro's going to make it in the marketplace based on it's own merits.

It's going to be a mean looking, hot handling, sports coupe that's going to be well made. I think it'll do very well. :)

so the top dog is gonna be the Z28? i hope thats what u mean, since chevy killed the SS title by putting it on everything.

when I said "horsepower wars" I was referring to the arms race in the pony car class. If it's a general statement, than nearly every manufacturer is putting out cars with escalating power levels. I just meant our own little part of that world.

That being said, I'm not so sure if I agree with the characterization of the Camaro being a road course car. I'm sure it will be MUCH better suited for that kind of racing, but I think the majority of people are going to be taking it to the dragstrip. It will, however, be a good all-around car, where the other two will be more suited for straight-line action.

where the other two will be more suited for straight-line action.

Tell that to the guys mopping up F-Stock with the new Mustang.

By the way things seem to be shaping up, I'm suspecting that the Shelby GT500 is going to have it's claim to fame in drag racing, the Challenger SRT is going to be a old style street muscle car (big, roomy, well riding, and pretty unbeatable in the "stop light grand prix"), and the Camaro Z28 is going to be a high powered race course car.
:bow:

Preach on brother Guy, preach on! :D

so the top dog is gonna be the Z28? i hope thats what u mean, since chevy killed the SS title by putting it on everything.There's still going to be a Camaro SS. It's just there will also be a Z06-like Camaro as well. :D

Well....
that "pig" can seriously outhandle your 94 Z, and that "pig" can outaccelerate anything else currently made in the US short of a Z06.

Are we talking about domestic cars here, because a Viper could still very well bring down a GT500.



(SVT has been limiting their Mustangs to a Germany-like 155 mph for a decade, and probally won't change).

The only Cobras I have known that have been speed limited to 155mph are the 03 and 04s. There are guys with full bolt on Cobras and gears that have gone quite over the 155mph (and in most cases, it has been remarked the speedo was corrected for the gears).


Well....
that "pig" can seriously outhandle your 94 Z,

That pig also has almost twice the hp of his 12 year old car, better tires, better dampers, springs, and since it is new, is likely in better running order. I have no doubt a GT500 would bury any fbody made on a road course, but I would imagine much of that is contributed to it's raw brutish power. Much in the same way LS1 Camaro SSs were known to lap some road courses faster than the better handling S2000s.

Tell that to the guys mopping up F-Stock with the new Mustang.

my point is that the Camaro will have better handling, and the intended use for most of these cars (Camaros included) will be the 1/4 mile. I'm not saying they can't go out on a road or autoX course and do some damage. it's what the majority of people are going to be doing with these cars that i'm focusing on.

There's still going to be a Camaro SS. It's just there will also be a Z06-like Camaro as well. :D
i understood that, i just hope the Z28 is higher up then the SS.

i understood that, i just hope the Z28 is higher up then the SS.Yes. :D

Can someone update me on this?

As far as American Cars go, what is the fastest production car on the road then as far as 0-60, 1/4 mile and top speed, etc.?

I'm assuming it goes Z06, GT500, Viper as the top three, but what kind of test numbers are there??

In other words, is the Z06 the .....fastest American car? Who has the belt?:D

Jeff
:think:

If i'm not mistaken, the Saleen S7 Twin Turbo holds that title. it does the 1/4 in 10.9 seconds @ 140 MPH. Top speed is 248 MPH, with a 0-60 time of 3.4 seconds. Pulls 1.04 g's on the skidpad.

According to the magazines (ick) the vette beats out the gt500 in pretty much all of the categories. The SRT10 seems to be very similar in performance while the gt500 can not really be compared to the Z06, its more of a base vette competitor (sort of).

A better comparision would be between the Ford GT, Viper SRT10, and Corvette Z06. But the prices go (respectively) approximately 151000+, 85000, and 65000. So its really unfair to to compare the three.

Either way, the Z06 has gained a reputation of beating the SRT10 in many categories despite its 20K price difference, and even manages to give the Ford GT very little breathing room.

So who's the fastest? I honestly have never seen a race between all three at once so i don't know. If i saw a race like that i would probably either faint or urinate upon myself, probably both. But without a doubt, the most car for the money in this niche would absolutely be the Corvette Z06

I'm assuming it goes Z06, GT500, Viper as the top three, but what kind of test numbers are there??
GT500 is not in the same class as the Ford GT, Z06, and Viper. It's too heavy to compete with those cars.

GT500 is not in the same class as the Ford GT, Z06, and Viper. It's too heavy to compete with those cars.
what about the regular vette? i mean it has 100 more hp than the "normal" vette (and still doesn't perform as good :confused: ).

The GT500 weights about 800 pounds more than a base C6 (3900 vs 3100... rough estimates). The extra horsepower, according to the acceleration numbers I've seen, isn't quite enough to compensate.

Guy, I know you know your stuff, so I'm not trying to go after you, but...

Don't you think that closer to half of the Challengers made will be the super version? As a limited production car, it'll have to be pretty expensive in base trim alone, and wouldn't that likely make the incremental increase in price to add, say, 100+ horse for another 5 g's on top of the 35-40k sticker seem like a pretty good deal?

I'm in the finance business, and many (most) buyers are payment driven, add 12-24 months and that 5 grand almost (to the foolish) disappears...

Similar (but not exactly comparable) to how the GTOs didnt sell well until the LS2 came over, the cat was out of the bag and it wasn't much more expensive.

Regardless, I think it'll be more than 5%. Too many hemi-loving good-ole boys runnning around, IMO.

Preach on, brother...:bow:

Guy, I know you know your stuff, so I'm not trying to go after you, but...

Don't you think that closer to half of the Challengers made will be the super version? As a limited production car, it'll have to be pretty expensive in base trim alone, and wouldn't that likely make the incremental increase in price to add, say, 100+ horse for another 5 g's on top of the 35-40k sticker seem like a pretty good deal?

Good points, and the SRT could verywell end up with a higher number. But SRT is based on the Ford SVT model: keep production artificially limited to keep value up. Ford could almost certainly sell as many Cobras (or GT500s) as Pontiac sells GTOs (15-18,000). But keeps it artificially limited to 9-10K. Bullits were kept at around 5-8K if I remember, and Mach 1s were kept well under 10K annually. The 1K number I mentioned is probally low, but don't expect more than 3K SRT Challengers.

Similar (but not exactly comparable) to how the GTOs didnt sell well until the LS2 came over, the cat was out of the bag and it wasn't much more expensive.


Actually, the GTOs started selling well around August/September 2004 when GM included them with the employee pricing scheme and finally started to get ahold of dealer scalping. The best sales months GTO ever had was towards the end of the '04's model run in the fall of 2004.

The 2005 LS2 GTO's sales were more stable, running around 1000-1200 per month (the '04s with the LS1 ranged wildly from a few hundred to well over 2000 per month). :)

If i'm not mistaken, the Saleen S7 Twin Turbo holds that title. it does the 1/4 in 10.9 seconds @ 140 MPH. Top speed is 248 MPH, with a 0-60 time of 3.4 seconds. Pulls 1.04 g's on the skidpad.
A mosler could probably take that. There are probably even some lesser known car companies out there making things even faster.

Example: A hole in the wall place, in Germany, that most people have never heard of, makes a 1100hp 1300lb tq Cobra.
That's what 780cu.in will get you. In the right hands, it could get more. With power adders, even still more.

What about that quiet company in Chicago that had that 2-speed 2000hp Viper?
Then you get into the manufacturer/tuner debate, with everything in between.

Dunno... but I've been told GM don't lose horsepower wars... and Ford is generally getting sand kicked in its face from both GM and DC. ;)

Tell that to the guys mopping up F-Stock with the new Mustang.

In what world? :confused:

Why is it that almost every topic on the 5th Gen forum has at least one post of someone getting their panties in a wad over whether the Z28 or SS will be "top dog"?

Will the designation make a difference as to whether or not someone will buy it? Of course not! I could freaking care less if the top engine was only available in the RS (or even a "Camaro" with no extra designation for that matter).

The important thing first is that they actually make the 5th Gen and hopefully carry through with making it available with one bad-@ss engine.

If this Z28 (or whatever they call it) is available on a limited basis like the Z06, I'm sure we can look forward to anywhere between $10,000-$20,000 gouging from the dealers similar to what they did with the Z06. That would be a real shame :shame:

GT500 is not in the same class as the Ford GT, Z06, and Viper. It's too heavy to compete with those cars.

Weight has nothing to do with what class its in. Those three are built from the ground up with performance in mind. The GT500 has to do the best it can with bones that are made to sell to as many people as possible.

Why is it that almost every topic on the 5th Gen forum has at least one post of someone getting their panties in a wad over whether the Z28 or SS will be "top dog"?

This is an enthusiast board and enthusiast tend to take spiritual things like that seriously. It wouldn't be so bad if they weren't so many 16 y/o swearing SS is better because they can only remember back to 1993.

This is an enthusiast board and enthusiast tend to take spiritual things like that seriously. It wouldn't be so bad if they weren't so many 16 y/o swearing SS is better because they can only remember back to 1993.

I agree with you 100%.

I would like the designations to somewhat reflect the spirit of the way the 1st Gens were classed. I own a 2nd Gen & 4th Gen Z28, previously owned a different 4th Gen Z, 4th Gen SS, and 3rd Gen Z. I'm not going to lose much sleep over it one way or another, as long as they make it.

What if they just made a LSx camaro no V6,RS,Z28 or SS but just one trim car with a v8 like the GTO

What if they just made a LSx camaro no V6,RS,Z28 or SS but just one trim car with a v8 like the GTO

That would suck.......

That would be pointless

Horsepower wars should be as important as weight wars, because making a car that makes 1000hp stock is pointless if it weighs 10 tons.

What if they just made a LSx camaro no V6,RS,Z28 or SS but just one trim car with a v8 like the GTO

I wouldn't think there's any possibility of that.

GM would be limiting sales if they didn't make a V6 available. GM needs to sell A LOT of Camaros to make it profitable/worthwhile. Not offering a 6 cylinder would decrease the car's market.

With the Mustang having the GT500, I'm thinking GM would almost have to make an more powerful optional V8 motor available for the Camaro. Even if it was for nothing other than bragging rights.

What if they just made a LSx camaro no V6,RS,Z28 or SS but just one trim car with a v8 like the GTO
It wouldn't sell the 150K cars a year that Luts says the car would have to be able to be built and to sell...