What V8's would you like the Camaro to have?

If given the option between these two line ups which would you choose?

I think the 5.3 and the 6.2...because that leaves room for a low volume 6.2 supercharged or other...special addition camaro a year or so into production as a GT500 killer.

Car has to remain affordable so I chose the first option.

i don't agree with that pricing, but i picked the 6.2 and 6.2 supercharged..

i'm guessing the 6.2 will comein around 28k and the supercharged version coming in around 38k

As long as there is a V8 available at $27-29K to compete with the Mustang GT, that is what GM needs to think about. A version above that is great for a specialty performance edition or Cobra/GT500 competitor, but they MUST build a version of the car with a V8 for under $30K to be successful.

27-29? Shesh..

I guess ill be looking for the first wrecked ones coming out to rebuild.

27-29? Shesh..

I guess ill be looking for the first wrecked ones coming out to rebuild.

i don't agree with that pricing, but i picked the 6.2 and 6.2 supercharged..

i'm guessing the 6.2 will comein around 28k and the supercharged version coming in around 38k

I haven't voted because I don't agree with the pricing either. The base 6.2 is supposed to come in at a GT price point. Why would I want a crappy lower output 5.3 at the same price point.

:rolleyes:

Way to elaborate. What was the point of the rolly eyes?

This won't happen, but (these are based on currently available powerplants. I am sure GM will have some different stuff at the time):

3.9 or 3.6 V6 for a base car (the 267 hp version in the Acadia would probably be sufficient).
5.3 V8 - V6 content, small bump in price (315-330 hp should do the job). Priced with the GT
6.2 V8 - 420 ish hp. Low 30's in todays dollars
7.0 V8 (I know the supercharged 6.2 is probably coming, but its my wish list) - Keep the dry sump system, low number of options, big tires.shock/swaybars. Make it a real barnburner.

Way to elaborate. What was the point of the rolly eyes?

I took his point to be that a 325-350hp 5.3L is not a crappy motor, and will still outperform any of the LT1 and most LS1 cars.

I also think it's pretty obvious that it's unrealistic for GM to put a 420hp engine in a car for $27K, or the price of a Mustang GT.

I don't believe GM can just pull an IRS car with 420hp and all the ancillary parts to handle that out of their hat for the same price, nor do they need to.

Way to elaborate. What was the point of the rolly eyes?

I also think it's pretty obvious that it's unrealistic for GM to put a 420hp engine in a car for $27K, or the price of a Mustang GT.

I don't believe GM can just pull an IRS car with 420hp and all the ancillary parts to handle that out of their hat for the same price, nor do they need to.

That was my point. See post #27 http://web.camaross.com/forums/showthread.php?t=461389

There is no way in hell GM is gonna sell a 400+ motor in a new car for 27k.

Lets take out hand out of our pants and get realistic.

LS2 equiv or better. Which means all aluminum (for weight), and 400 hp and about that tq. I'm stil not convinced a lower power 5.3L will really save any actual money.. let alone the costs to support more than one popular V8 engine varient.

I personally think that anyone one who thinks GM will sell a 430-450HP Camaro for just over the Mustang GT price ($27K) is playing with it. If I'm wrong then that is awesome and I'll be the first in line to buy a $27K 450HP 6.2L Camaro, but no manufactorer ever has sold a 400HP+ car for under $30K MSRP and I don't expect the Camaro to be the first. Basically everyone wants a CTS-V coupe for the G6 price.

I personally think that anyone one who thinks GM will sell a 430-450HP Camaro for just over the Mustang GT price ($27K) is playing with it. If I'm wrong then that is awesome and I'll be the first in line to buy a $27K 450HP 6.2L Camaro, but no manufactorer ever has sold a 400HP+ car for under $30K MSRP and I don't expect the Camaro to be the first. Basically everyone wants a CTS-V coupe for the G6 price.

why should the LS3 be any more expensive than the LS1 just because it makes more horsepower.. it probably doesnt cost much more to manufacture..

an 2002 Z28's MSRP was $22,830.. that'd be about $24,370 in 2005(the latest i can go)

now.. assuming 4% a year inflation(pretty high estimate) .. and assuming the car comes out in 2008, that'd be about $27,400.. pretty close to my $28k estimate earlier

oh, lets not forget that this Camaro is going to be produced on a global rear wheel drive platform, shared with many other cars across the world.. GM could easily keep the price of the Camaro competative because all the other cars would be turning a large profit even if they lost a little on the camaro.. overall Zeta would be making money

The Challenger's got three hot selling sister cars to eat its cost... We'll see how much the MSRP is on that...

why should the LS3 be any more expensive than the LS1 just because it makes more horsepower.. it probably doesnt cost much more to manufacture..

Think of my buddies 405hp Z06. That car was a lot more expensive than the other 350hp Vette's. Not because of the nifty badges, but because of everything that had to go along with it.

Horsepower is a game of diminishing returns. To get to that 400+hp, you change a lot more than what you see as a sum of parts. Everything needs to be better, stronger and lighter, from the pistons, to the crank, to the rods, to the valvetrain. Stronger and lighter means more expensive.

All that extra power has to go through a drivetrain that won't explode behind it. So that means more investment and development in the transmissions, the rear-end, the axles, driveshafts, etc.

Getting 400+hp out of the engine is only the half of it...building a chassis, drivetrain, brakes and suspension that can handle it and survive the warranty period is the other half of the equation.

Think of my buddies 405hp Z06. That car was a lot more expensive than the other 350hp Vette's. Not because of the nifty badges, but because of everything that had to go along with it.

Horsepower is a game of diminishing returns. To get to that 400+hp, you change a lot more than what you see as a sum of parts. Everything needs to be better, stronger and lighter, from the pistons, to the crank, to the rods, to the valvetrain. Stronger and lighter means more expensive.

All that extra power has to go through a drivetrain that won't explode behind it. So that means more investment and development in the transmissions, the rear-end, the axles, driveshafts, etc.

Getting 400+hp out of the engine is only the half of it...building a chassis, drivetrain, brakes and suspension that can handle it and survive the warranty period is the other half of the equation.

Yea, but the way i view it, is the latest GTO has 400 hp in 3800 lb car for about $32k.. So, it might be a stretch, but I think its possible to have that in a Camaro for $28k.

That was my point. See post #27 http://web.camaross.com/forums/showthread.php?t=461389

There is no way in hell GM is gonna sell a 400+ motor in a new car for 27k.

Lets take out hand out of our pants and get realistic.

Why can they not? How much more is a 6.2 going to cost than a 5.3? Would a 5.3 and a 6.2 use different trannies and differentials, or would they carry over to both cars? It all depends on GM's setup, but how do you actually know what they can and can't do? It doesn't sound absolutely out of the boundaries of possibility to me.

Is a Mustang GT even going to cost $27k by the time the new Camaro comes out?

The Challenger's got three hot selling sister cars to eat its cost... We'll see how much the MSRP is on that...

The Camaros going to have a whole lineup of cars it can potentially share parts with. Far more than the Challenger will.

Think of my buddies 405hp Z06. That car was a lot more expensive than the other 350hp Vette's. Not because of the nifty badges, but because of everything that had to go along with it.

Horsepower is a game of diminishing returns. To get to that 400+hp, you change a lot more than what you see as a sum of parts. Everything needs to be better, stronger and lighter, from the pistons, to the crank, to the rods, to the valvetrain. Stronger and lighter means more expensive.

All that extra power has to go through a drivetrain that won't explode behind it. So that means more investment and development in the transmissions, the rear-end, the axles, driveshafts, etc.

Getting 400+hp out of the engine is only the half of it...building a chassis, drivetrain, brakes and suspension that can handle it and survive the warranty period is the other half of the equation.

What was that much different on a z06 Vette? The t56 was an M12 unit, but the base C5's t56 would have done the job fine. Better brakes on the z06, but the c5's were adequate. How much more does an LS6 actually cost to build over an LS1? I don't know the answer, but I can't see it being that much. The motor has a better valve train, but what else about the motor makes it better than a LS1? Rear end on the z06 - same as the c5. Besides some suspension stuff, the cars were virtually identical.

GM charged more for the z06, because it was a z06. There is a set of diminishing returns for automobile performance typically, but technology keeps pushing what can be done for cheaper farther and farther. If GM wants to make a huge splash with the new Camaro, from a performance standpoint 420hp for under 30Gs is a good way to do that.

Yea, but the way i view it, is the latest GTO has 400 hp in 3800 lb car for about $32k.. So, it might be a stretch, but I think its possible to have that in a Camaro for $28k.

I like your thinking Ken, and considering:

-It'll be a NA built car without all of the extra import taxes

-Considerably more volume (2, almost 3x as many, hopefully)

-The other platform mates, as already mentioned

There'll be a premium right out of the gate, for sure, but I imagine down the road this thinking should be sound. That 32k price is probably pretty deeply discounted, though. Won't be seeing that kind of rebate on a Camaro until 2010+ probably. Weren't they damn near giving away the Goats for awhile? Too bad, too, its a pretty nice car, IMO. If I was in the market for new right now I might have bought one. Maybe that was before the LS2 came out.

All that extra "stuff" you keep skimming over, has to be designed, engineered and built and tested, often times repeatedly for each model.

This isn't the first time any one has ever gotten more than one vehicle out of a platform, so why do we think GM doing it is going to put the automotive world on its head?

Nissan has essentially three platforms in the whole damn company. The Tundra and QX, are one, the G35, 350Z, M45 and Q45 are another. Then the Maxima, Altima and everything else.

While they are profitable I don't see Infinit hugely undercutting Lexus on prices, and I dont see Nissan undercutting Toyota or honda by much.

The more "flexible" this platform is, the more work that has to be done on each car. Different window touch down points, wheel bases, interior dimensions and everything else mean that you are still going to have design engineering, building and testing to do for each vehicle.

Im just trying to be the voice of reason, I knew reason wasn't popular beforehand. I don't know how you can claim that GM is charging you for the fact that a Z06 is a "Z06" but think the situation would be any different for a Camaro which has generated more buzz than any Z06 ever will, especially since you think this Camaro is going to perform like the Z06 for 50k less.

Base V8 should be LS1 power (assuming weight is the same or less than the old camaro).
Mid V8 should be 400+ (425?)
High V8 should be ~500 (rated 475? so that it's not approaching ZO6 hp)

Id be shocked if you saw the 5.3 in this car. I wouldnt put money on it. Also I dont think the prices in the poll correspond to the motors. I expect the 400 hp base V8 to be a couple hundred over Mustang Base GT V8 Price.

Im just trying to be the voice of reason, I knew reason wasn't popular beforehand. I don't know how you can claim that GM is charging you for the fact that a Z06 is a "Z06" but think the situation would be any different for a Camaro which has generated more buzz than any Z06 ever will, especially since you think this Camaro is going to perform like the Z06 for 50k less.

The same reason that Dodge could charge more for a Hemi model Ram, as opposed to their 4.9(I think that was the displacement), higher cost OHC engine.

When did I ever say that the Camaro will perform like any z06, either c5 or c6?
I have to side with 5thgen69Camaro, I really doubt we are going to see any iteration of the 5.3 in the 5th gen at all.

Id be shocked if you saw the 5.3 in this car. I wouldnt put money on it. Also I dont think the prices in the poll correspond to the motors. I expect the 400 hp base V8 to be a couple hundred over Mustang Base GT V8 Price.

This certainly seems to be what the "winky club" on here has been insinuating for months about the 5th gen's powertrain.

I honestly don't know or care about the 5.3.

I simply don't believe that you are going to get a 400hp V8 for 26k. Id bet money I don't have on it. :think:

I honestly don't know or care about the 5.3.

I simply don't believe that you are going to get a 400hp V8 for 26k. Id bet money I don't have on it. :think:

Do you think by the time the 5th gen comes out that the Mustang GT will still be 26k?

Probably not, and certainly won't be 300hp either.

We'll see. But some of these expectations are crazy.

I honestly don't know or care about the 5.3.

I simply don't believe that you are going to get a 400hp V8 for 26k. Id bet money I don't have on it. :think:

Ford is going to step their game up anticipating the 5th gen with the base model with something close in HP. Camaro will probably be a couple hundred more than that. I wonder when people are arguing price, are they talking todays money or the price that takes into account inflation in a few years? Comparison to todays Mustang, or When Ford improves Mustang to compete with Camaro. Just a thought.

Well I suppose comparing a car that doesen't exist to a car that doesen't exist as it will is no worse than comparing a car that doesen't exist to one tha does. :p

But it only makes sense to talk todays numbers. If prices go up they will up across the board.

Perhaps I should say I don't believe we will get a 6.2 400hp V8 for the same price as a 4.6 300hp V8. Perhaps thats the safer bet.

I personally think that anyone one who thinks GM will sell a 430-450HP Camaro for just over the Mustang GT price ($27K) is playing with it. If I'm wrong then that is awesome and I'll be the first in line to buy a $27K 450HP 6.2L Camaro, but no manufactorer ever has sold a 400HP+ car for under $30K MSRP and I don't expect the Camaro to be the first. Basically everyone wants a CTS-V coupe for the G6 price.


Had anyone ever sold a car with over 300HP for under $28,000 before the LS1?

I honestly don't know or care about the 5.3.

I simply don't believe that you are going to get a 400hp V8 for 26k. Id bet money I don't have on it. :think:
if the camaro came out tommorow it should at least be equal in terms of hp of the LS1, if not more. and i'm talking BASE V8 ;).

Just for fun, I was thinking if the LS2 Camaro production were released tomorrow I was hoping 27-28 to start based on absoloutely nothing. But I really dont think it would be 31k in todays dollars would it? It doesnt have to be shipped by boat or imported other than from Canada. Theres no gas tank modifications from another country to ours for impact standards. That also puts you 2-3k over the Mustang which isnt a fair comparison yet, and more HP doesnt always mean more money. Infact the Z350 is less HP than Mustang for much more.

Here's waht I would like to see:

Base-3.9 @ 270 HP
Optional engine-327 @ 325 to 350 HP
RS-LS2 @ 400 HP
Z/28-427 @ 500
SS-Detuned Z07/SS Vette motor-600 HP---Maybe it will be a "454" in the super vette.

I know, fat chance on the last 3.

If the Camaro can't sell for under 30k with a 400/400 V8 then that is a bad sign. The GTO, which is supposed to be a higher class car, has MSRP right around 32k right? LS2 makes actually more than 400/400 according to the magazine testing I've seen done, so you have a car like Camaro out why can't it be cheaper?

Maybe it's just a dream but it doesn't seem unrealistic to me. I don't like the pricing ideas in this thread though.

I think the Camaro should have only 1 v-8 & it should be the most awesomest engine G.M. has ever built! It should be able to outperform everything on the planet! Since the Bugatti Veyron is the high water mark with an 1,000 h.p. engine the Camaro will need a 1,010 h.p. engine to have the bragging rights. That should satisfy the h.p. addicts for 2-3 years before they start clamoring for more power........... Oh, & it should MSRP for no more than $30K, MAX! :P

Perhaps I should say I don't believe we will get a 6.2 400hp V8 for the same price as a 4.6 300hp V8. Perhaps thats the safer bet.

Thats what I'm saying too. You won't get a 6.2L Camaro for the Mustang 4.6L price.

The cheapest I can see a 6.2L Camaro selling for is $29,500. The 2002 Z28 fix for inflation is $27K, but that car came with less options than our 2008 cars will see. 16" vs. 18" rims, '08 has side airbags, '08 has nicer interior, '08 has TC/stability standard, etc...

If you can get a 6.2L Camaro for under $29,995 then that car will be a steal. :bow:

FWIW, my good buddy had his 405hp Z06 towed over to Doug Rippie Motorsports this week because his fuel pump went out on him. While there, there was a similar Z06 (405hp) version. The guy missed a shift and blew the engine apart, nothing salvageable.

Cost of a new 405hp Z06 engine? $19K, according to Doug.

That may put some perspective on what it cost to build those motors, and why it'll be tougher for GM to offer that in the base model.

Obviously economies to scale come into play, and if that LS3 is used in multiple applications, then it may enjoy the reduction in costs associated with that and make it under the hood of the Camaro as the base V8.

We can all hope!

FWIW, my good buddy had his 405hp Z06 towed over to Doug Rippie Motorsports this week because his fuel pump went out on him. While there, there was a similar Z06 (405hp) version. The guy missed a shift and blew the engine apart, nothing salvageable.

Cost of a new 405hp Z06 engine? $19K, according to Doug.

That may put some perspective on what it cost to build those motors, and why it'll be tougher for GM to offer that in the base model.

Obviously economies to scale come into play, and if that LS3 is used in multiple applications, then it may enjoy the reduction in costs associated with that and make it under the hood of the Camaro as the base V8.

We can all hope!

Sorry but if he's paying 19k he's way overpaying (or getting the more motor work done on top).

Motors and GM LIST PRICE:

LS1 Longblock - $7,417
LS2 Longblock - $7,650
LS6 Longblock - $9,843
LS7 Longblock - $17,495

Those prices are for the longblocks with the intake, throttleboy, injectors, exhaust manifolds, balancers, etc. Pulled the list price off gmpartsdirect (again this is GM list, not gmpartsdirect price).

Chris

I don't know the guy getting the engine, my buddy just needed a fuel pump.

I think he said it was a Mallet car, so maybe he is talking about a seriously built engine, I didn't get details.

I heard that and just related it to what I recall the old ZR1 engines going for back in the day...seemed to be reasonable at the moment...

These prices are a lot more palatable!

I don't know the guy getting the engine, my buddy just needed a fuel pump.

I think he said it was a Mallet car, so maybe he is talking about a seriously built engine, I didn't get details.

I heard that and just related it to what I recall the old ZR1 engines going for back in the day...seemed to be reasonable at the moment...

These prices are a lot more palatable!

Ah ok I misread and thought you were talking about your buddy. Yup a Mallet car would have a built engine and I can definitely see that 19k pricetag!

Chris

That was my point. See post #27 http://web.camaross.com/forums/showthread.php?t=461389

There is no way in hell GM is gonna sell a 400+ motor in a new car for 27k.

Lets take out hand out of our pants and get realistic.

:lol: That's exactly what I'm thinking. To me these prices almost seem too low for what you're getting.... It sounds like some people want the cake with the cherries on top, just for the price of the cake! :rolleyes:

Several people have picked up GTOs with what, 400hp for close to 30K.
What makes you think GM can't do that with a higher volume Camaro?

I'm hopeful that GM will have 400hp for close to $30K, but I think the discussion would be that the GTO was a Holden Monaro, that had already been in production for several years in Australia as well as in Europe as a Vauxhall, aready using that motor. GM brought that car over at the end of it's lifecycle, when costs were significantly down.

IMO.. In this day and age of 300 hp sedans, and 280 hp Camry's.. The Camaro really needs 400 hp to completely stand out..

You guys all realize that the LS1 came in the 24k Camaro (which I believe with rebates could be gotten even lower). LS1 had 350hp and I highly doubt costs less to make then an LS2 (or upcomming LS3).

I wouldn't compare what the GTO costs with what the Camaro should, the GTO is more of a uplevel content car. It would be like saying 'well a Corvette comes with 400hp for 44k so how can even a 30k car come with the same amount'.

Chris

You guys all realize that the LS1 came in the 24k Camaro (which I believe with rebates could be gotten even lower). LS1 had 350hp and I highly doubt costs less to make then an LS2 (or upcomming LS3).

I wouldn't compare what the GTO costs with what the Camaro should, the GTO is more of a uplevel content car. It would be like saying 'well a Corvette comes with 400hp for 44k so how can even a 30k car come with the same amount'.

Chris

Don't forget inflation (lets say 3.5%)

2002 = $24,000
2003 = $24,840
2004 = $25,709
2005 = $26,609
2006 = $27,540
2007 = $28,504
2008 = $29,502

Plus the 2008 will have standard features the 2002 didn't that cost money like side air bags, bigger rims, and active handling.

$29,995+ would not be an unreasonable base price for GM to ask for a LS2/LS3 Camaro

IMO.. In this day and age of 300 hp sedans, and 280 hp Camry's.. The Camaro really needs 400 hp to completely stand out..

I feel this is a good point to make.

i think the prices are a little low my self but to put things into perspective. when chevy released c6 zo6 has more power and beter handeling then the alot of the cars in its class but yes is far far less in price i mean the new vett starts at 67,900 and viper starts at 85,700. and people thought the new z06 power and preformance was crazy for the price when it came out so who knows.

speaking in relation to the GTO, remember it came standard with a decked out leather interior and all the options.. i think the only option on a GTO besides colors was M6 or A4..

i can see a stripper 400+hp camaro coming in at well under $30,000 (in today's dollars)

If they only want to sell 16,000 V8 Camaros then fine, sell them for 30K+ like the GTO ... :(

All of them.
:D

IMO.. In this day and age of 300 hp sedans, and 280 hp Camry's.. The Camaro really needs 400 hp to completely stand out..

That 280hp Camry cost about 28k.

Horsepower is great and all, but dodges SRT lineup is showing that it isn't everything. I would love to say i have 400HP, but if they can make a car that does 0-60 in the 4.99 or less and cost less than $28500 msrp, then i don't care if it only has 301hp!

I think the magic number is going to be 350 for the lower V8 Camaro. Heck, just put a restricted LS2 (or LSwhatever) in it with an HP number underrated at 350.

GM underestimating crank horsepower???? That never happens.......

i don't agree with that pricing, but i picked the 6.2 and 6.2 supercharged..

i'm guessing the 6.2 will comein around 28k and the supercharged version coming in around 38k
Agreed.

The pricing is rediculous as its leading the answers. This poll would have been better off without it.