C. Shelby challenges GM...bring it on!

DEARBORN, Mich. — Describing the Mustang as its "iconic" product, Ford executives on Wednesday promised to keep interest in the pony car high by providing "new product content" year over year.

"We will add new products to the Mustang lineup," Derrick Kuzak told Inside Line. "It's a commitment. Carroll [Shelby] will work every year on the Mustang."

Kuzak, however, gave no details on what's in the pipeline for Mustang. When asked if we can expect a 600-horsepower version of the car, he replied, "Never say never to anything." It was clear in interviews that Shelby and the Ford team may be a bit anxious about the prospects of a revived Chevrolet Camaro.

"With the new Camaro, they'd better not dream they'll have more horsepower [than Mustang]," Shelby told IL in an interview at the 2007 Ford full-line preview here on Wednesday, which showcased the 2007 Shelby GT500. When asked if the Mustang is racing toward the 600-hp mark, the automotive legend said, "It would be very easy for the Mustang to go to 600 horsepower — and north from there — and still pass the company's 50,000-mile warranty."

When asked if we could see a 600-hp Mustang in a year or two, Shelby responded, "Maybe."

"I'd get in trouble if I told you," he said, although he confirmed that a redesigned Mustang is due out in 2009. Shelby confided that while his health is good following both a heart transplant and a kidney transplant, he is now blind in one eye.

When asked for his impressions of the Camaro concept, Shelby said, "I don't think it's sensational, but I think it's adequate." He added: "I don't think the Camaro will come out with anything that puts us down. We are ahead of the game. And we know how to stay ahead. I don't see people — the general press or the public — knocking the design of the Mustang."

What this means to you: The Detroit muscle-car race sounds like it's about to get heated up in the coming years.

*********************************************
All I can say is, Mr. Settlemire, with all due respect, please make Caroll eat his words! :bow:

"If you build it, they will come." (And I ain't talkin' bout no baseball game, neither):thumb:

Its just posturing. Sure they can go to 600hp but its not going to be as easy as flipping a switch.

And they will already behind in a major way when they're the only pony car left with a live rear axle.

Maybe with 600HP it will finally be able to hang with the C6 Z06 in the 1/4 mile. Of course it will still be a fat little piggy.

"With the new Camaro, they'd better not dream they'll have more horsepower [than Mustang],"

You know what? Camaro might not have as much horsepower at the top of the lineup. On the other hand, perhaps Camaro won't be a fat pig either.

When asked for his impressions of the Camaro concept, Shelby said, "I don't think it's sensational, but I think it's adequate."

In terms of design, those are words I would use to describe the current Mustang. :shrug:

Tough words considering GM's $75,000 supercar is easily a match for Ford's $250,000 supecar. :confused:

I Love It! :D

Keep talking Ford, We're about to bring it!

Tough words considering GM's $75,000 supercar is easily a match for Ford's $250,000 supecar. :confused:


agreed.

However if the stang is willing to go that high of HP, at what price is it willing to do it at!?!?!? and what does this exactly mean for the Camaro and also the Corvette..

I think a HP war would be wonderful, but it could also be very very bad for insurance, and the effect on the camaro/corvette relationship..

While im sure the new camaro will out-do the mustang in every way, it still is some food for thought.

-steve

agreed.

However if the stang is willing to go that high of HP, at what price is it willing to do it at!?!?!? and what does this exactly mean for the Camaro and also the Corvette..

I think a HP war would be wonderful, but it could also be very very bad for insurance, and the effect on the camaro/corvette relationship..

While im sure the new camaro will out-do the mustang in every way, it still is some food for thought.

-steve

Considering the Camaro should be $10K to $15K less than the Cobra, I don't consider the Cobra & the Camaro to be direct competitors.

Musting GT = Camaro SS/Z28
Cobra = C6
GT = C6 Z06

Considering the Camaro should be $10K to $15K less than the Cobra, I don't consider the Cobra & the Camaro to be direct competitors.

Musting GT = Camaro SS/Z28
Cobra = C6
GT = C6 Z06

Chevy will find a way for Camaro to compete with the Cobra.

Oh no.....not GT500 and C6 again. LOL.

600 hp in a car that a good percentage of the population can afford is kind of scary. Obviously to guys (and gals) on this message board you can never have enough HP, but I worry GM and Ford will push too quickly, too much.

Typical Caroll. This is the man who went up to Enzo Ferrari at Le Mans and told him he was going to "whip his ass". That's right Caroll the look of the camaro is adequate enough to kick the mustangs rear end.
I don't see the point of a 600 horsepower pony car challenger, mustang or camaro.

"I'd get in trouble if I told you," he said, although he confirmed that a redesigned Mustang is due out in 2009. Shelby confided that while his health is good following both a heart transplant and a kidney transplant, he is now blind in one eye.[/B]


So there gona try to fix that ugly thing to compete with the new camaro...wonder what its gona look like. I have a feeling there gona try something non-retro to try to make the camaro look out of date. To bad the new camaro has a fresh new look that will out beat anything they toss out.

Too bad we're two years from finding out the answers.

Ahead of the game? You're the only game in town, you old coot! It's easy to be boastful when there is no direct competition, but eveidently very, very hard to accept that the "iconic" mustang has nearly always been behind, sometimes far behind the performance and sometimes design of the Camaro.

By the way caroll Shelby did kick ass in the lemans thats why the ford GT is so famous.

Wow the respect i had for C. Shelby just went out the window. All i have to say is look in any history book. The Camaro has always been faster stock for stock. GM just dosent loose HP wars it chooses to fight in. I am too worried about alot of people haveing 600 hp cars. I think the its time for the camaro to come into its own and it fight directly against the mustang. I mean punch for punch and HP for HP. I love the Corvett but it crazy to have this two model on one fight. Give the camaro eough HP to out run the msuang at every corner. I only hope that Shelby lives long enough to eat his words.

Sometimes....Ford guys are pathetic. They take the Chevy rivalry too seriously.

The Camaro has always been faster stock for stock.
Not true.

I think that the 5th will compare favorably to the Mustang whatever the Ford guys do though. Shelby's comments are almost as fanboyish as ones we see about the Camaro on this site ;)

Not true.

I think that the 5th will compare favorably to the Mustang whatever the Ford guys do though. Shelby's comments are almost as fanboyish as ones we see about the Camaro on this site ;)


What years were the Mustang faster?

What years were the Mustang faster?

The Fox cars of the 80's were generally faster....the L98 Z28 would give a 5.0 a run for its money, but they were auto-only cars.

*Queue IZ28 to argue* :p

The Fox cars of the 80's were generally faster....the L98 Z28 would give a 5.0 a run for its money, but they were auto-only cars.

*Queue IZ28 to argue* :p

My 87 Iroc 350 eats the 80s & 90s Mustangs for lunch at the track. I mean most of these guys go 15s while my stock Iroc ran a constent 14.7 which is below stock numbers for the car.

"With the new Camaro, they'd better not dream they'll have more horsepower [than Mustang]," Shelby told IL in an interview......

Cool, let the pony wars begin.....again! :metal:




....... Shelby said, "..... I think it's adequate."

Whatever :rolleyes:

Don't forget Shelby originally approached GM in the 1960's to build a sportscar racing program and they blew him off. Then he went to Ford. It sounds like he's still holding a grudge.

We already knew they were gonna come out with new products. Right now they have the Shelbys out. They still have the Boss, Mach 1, etc. versions for the next few years. We've known this for a while. What we didn't know, was that the production version was gonna weigh what it does, and need 500hp to be quick. Logically they will either have to rethink their design to make it lighter, or add more power.

Uhhhh...ok, I readily admit this might be in poor taste to point this out....but what the hell....

Shelby confided that while his health is good following both a heart transplant and a kidney transplant, he is now blind in one eye....

When asked for his impressions of the Camaro concept, Shelby said, "I don't think it's sensational, but I think it's adequate."

:think: :o :shrug: :Owned: :lol:

I don't see the point of a 600 horsepower pony car challenger, mustang or camaro.

I know what you mean. It kind of bugs me, too. However, as long as they keep the lower hp models for ladies and 'everyday' drivers like me, that would be cool. I can see the 600 hp costing quite a bit, where only the true performance enthusiast would buy. Then hopefully there will be the rest of the pack, where most of the buying numbers would be, quantity speaking I mean. :)

Uhhhh...ok, I readily admit this might be in poor taste to point this out....but what the hell....



:think: :o :shrug: :Owned: :lol:

I didn't really make the connection until you pointed it out......thanks.

Tasteless? ..........maybe

But funny? ...............better believe it!! :lol: :lol:

Doesn't matter how much power you can stuff under the hood...a 3900 lbs car is still a pig.

Mindgames... obviously preaching to the Ford faithful to not lose hope, to not cross the floor! :)

I guess Carrol Shelby might be hinting at the Hurricane motor. If Ford can produce an LSx equivalent, the Mustang would have a lot more going for it. By that stage, Comaro will have LS3 and/or LS9 if the need arises.

The author is right, interesting times ahead.

I posted this at a local stang forum and they're like, "man that guy kicks ass!!"

I think it's funny. :lol: Go Shelby!!

Maybe something will light the fire under GM, nothing's worked so far....

Uhhhh...ok, I readily admit this might be in poor taste to point this out....but what the hell....



:think: :o :shrug: :Owned: :lol:


yeah, that's probably not PC..but I still LMAO...good one :)

The Fox cars of the 80's were generally faster....the L98 Z28 would give a 5.0 a run for its money, but they were auto-only cars.

*Queue IZ28 to argue* :p

The Third Gen went back and forth straightline, (I still haven't seen a stock LX beat a good L98 car that could launch good with all the TQ) but in general Camaros have always outperformed the M*stang in all categories. If it wasn't at the track it was handling/braking etc.

That was a pretty heavy gauntlet he just smacked us with.

The Fox cars of the 80's were generally faster....the L98 Z28 would give a 5.0 a run for its money, but they were auto-only cars.



I've driven every combo of 5.0 Fox Mustang, from the 1982, 157 hp GT, to the 1993 SVT Cobra (best Fox Mustang, IMO).

Generally speaking, they were faster than their competing 3rd gens. But the thing is, the 5.0's felt way faster.

The G92's finally gave Camaro straight line parity. I only lined up my IROC one time with a 5.0. It was an '87 or '88 M5 GT. We hit about 90 mph when we had to break off. At that point I was about 2 car lengths ahead and pulling away. Surprising to me, since that vintage 5.0 M5, always felt faster to me than my LB9 M5.

My 87 Iroc 350 eats the 80s & 90s Mustangs for lunch at the track. I mean most of these guys go 15s while my stock Iroc ran a constent 14.7 which is below stock numbers for the car.

There are stock LX 5-speeds that have run low 14s. Sorry, I think the advantage is Mustang in this case.

By the way caroll Shelby did kick ass in the lemans thats why the ford GT is so famous.

What did Shelby have to do with the GT40? I thought it was developed primarily in Europe?

I'm highly doubtful of a 600 h.p. Mustang. WHY? I know for must more horsepower is still not enough horsepower ,but 600 is getting rediculious. Make the 2009 Mustang a good 300-400 hundred pounds lighter subtract the 600 h.p and make it 500 with a N/A version of the 6.2 boss. Less weight means it'll handle,brake and generally go quicker . No matter what anyone tell's you in the end power to weight ratio does matter. Carol Shelby might be talkin some high numbers , but until it's on the street I won't believe it.

I ran 14.20's bone stock, down to the paper filter on Potenza radials...But I agree, most stick shift cars feel/sound faster, even when they aren't/weren't. And the Fox Mustangs had a faster "sound", tho I never lost to a single one.
There's an old saying,"torque gets you off the line and horsepower drags you through the lights"...or close paraphrase.;) (5.7L=350lbft+)

My 87 Iroc 350 eats the 80s & 90s Mustangs for lunch at the track. I mean most of these guys go 15s while my stock Iroc ran a constent 14.7 which is below stock numbers for the car.

LOL. Here we go again.

Give me a break. You weren't even driving in 1987 when those cars were new. New 5.0 LXs we easy mid 14 second cars (in capable hands), and a few were documented in the 13.9s (see Cars Illustrated, Spring 88 edition). My own 88 Coupe went 14.0 (a month after I bought it, brand new).

As for 14.7 being "below stock" for those cars - I distinctly remember a 350 IROC running at Great Lakes Dragaway in 1988 running consistent 14.2-14.3 stone stock - with only a good cool down and icing of the intake. We were pretty much all flabbergasted that it ran that. In those years, the only new cars that ever gave us trouble were the TRs (and they gave us a LOT of trouble).

There's an old saying,"torque gets you off the line and horsepower drags you through the lights"...or close paraphrase. (5.7L=350lbft+)
And that old saying is complete and total bunk.

Doesn't matter how much power you can stuff under the hood...a 3900 lbs car is still a pig.

Hmmm...that is an interesting thought. If I may, how light would a new car have to be in order to not be considered "a pig"?

Its just posturing. Sure they can go to 600hp but its not going to be as easy as flipping a switch.

Actually, it's something like that.

You know what? Camaro might not have as much horsepower at the top of the lineup. On the other hand, perhaps Camaro won't be a fat pig either.

One week, Camaro's gonna be a pig... next week it's not.... you guys really need to make up your minds! :lol:


Tough words considering GM's $75,000 supercar is easily a match for Ford's $250,000 supecar. :confused:

And which is going to to be most likely to appriciate?


Considering the Camaro should be $10K to $15K less than the Cobra, I don't consider the Cobra & the Camaro to be direct competitors.


I wouldn't go as far as saying such things. Are you working at GM powertrain? How much do you expect a Camaro that runs with GT500 to cost? If you think it's going to be 10 grand cheaper, come see me. I have alot of "very" valuable land I'm selling. ;)

Wow the respect i had for C. Shelby just went out the window. All i have to say is look in any history book. The Camaro has always been faster stock for stock. GM just dosent loose HP wars it chooses to fight in.

Whine, whine, whine. Why? Because someone displayed a bit of boastful pride in their product? Sorry if your fragile feelings and sense of selfworth were bruised, but if it the situation was reversed, you'd be smearing feaces on the wall and chearing like a madman.

Carroll Shelby deserves a TON of respect. He's probally accomplished more in a week than you probally will in your life. How much professional racing have YOU done? How many cars have YOU developed that not only have a world wide reputation, but command ungodly amounts of cash to purchase today? How much has both Chrysler and Ford given YOU for use of your name, because of the value it carries?

I've met the man, and to tell the truth, I refuse to let some little whiny so-and-so down grade the guy just because he layed down the gauntlet to GM to really produce a car that can compete with the GT500. How do you think the GM engineer, or the GM beancounter with an ounce of corperate pride is going to react to this? If I were you, I'd be writing Carroll Shelby offering to do his underwear for a year.... not just because he deserves the respect you say you lost, but because he singlehandedly wiped away the LAST remaining hurdles and fencesitters at GM that would have even remotely considered not producing the Camaro, or putting less power in the car than it should have.

It's G-R-E-A-T to hear car makers having so much pride in their ride that they talk smak and challenge the other side to not only make a car, but to give it their best shot in performance.

I thought that spirit died when Colletti left Ford. At least Shelby still has some balls in that company. They sorely need it. :lol:

Guy, You had your coffee and muffin this morning? ;) You're on fire and the sun isn't even up!! :)

And which is going to to be most likely to appriciate?

Not really a valid point because of the price difference...if you really wanted to invest the $$, buying a $250K ford is not the way to go. You're better off buying the Vette and investing the difference in something other than a car.

I do agree that it's good to hear some passion coming from Shelby about the Mustang vs. Camaro debate...maybe it'll light more of a fire under GM's arses. Say all you want about GM winning HP wars...the fact is you can go to your local furd dealer and drive away with a Mustang and there's no such option with the Camaro.

And which is going to to be most likely to appriciate?

Worst arguement and spelling ever. Cars are not investments. Im sure you know that when adjusted for inflation very few cars make any money worth speaking about. If someone told you there car was more likely to appreciate in value at the track you would die laughing.


I thought that spirit died when Colletti left Ford. At least Shelby still has some balls in that company. They sorely need it. :lol:

I completely agree with that. I just think it was overstated since it seems short of a platform GM has better pieces to assemble the puzzle with.

What did Shelby have to do with the GT40? I thought it was developed primarily in Europe?

:think: Pretty sure he was in charge of the GT40 racing program for a while at least and was directly involved with the engine work.

:think: Pretty sure he was in charge of the GT40 racing program for a while at least and was directly involved with the engine work.

Perhaps he was, obviously I am hazy on the history of it. I am just confused on the depth of Shelby's involvement. The last post made it sound like that if Shelby wasn't around, the GT40 would have never come to be at all, as if it is was his sole creation.

Perhaps he was, obviously I am hazy on the history of it. I am just confused on the depth of Shelby's involvement. The last post made it sound like that if Shelby wasn't around, the GT40 would have never come to be at all, as if it is was his sole creation.


I know that the GT40 was created because Ford wanted a GT car, but couldn't purchase Ferrari and apparently that PO'd Henry Ford II. So he threw an unlimited budget onto the GT40 project and Shelby ended up involved in a direct way but I don't know if his role was that integral.

I'm pretty sure it wasn't until he took over that the GT40's took LeMans 1,2,3 though.

Poor grammar notwithstanding, Guy, I think you hit the nail right on the head. Whats the guy gonna say?

"Yeah, we're building the (my name here) GT 500, it should have a nice run until the Camaro comes out."

I think it's great. Puts the ball squarely in the general's court.

Loved the smearing feces on the wall comment:lol:

If I was spending $250k on a car, it'd be hand built, thats for sure. Most likely Italian. I'd personally rather have 3 Z06s, (black, blue, and Daytona 500 pace car), but to each his own.

GM has been very responsive to image attacks lately, let's see what comes of this. This may provoke some public statements on the car, for the first time in a while.

Oh no.....not GT500 and C6 again. LOL.

Yep. Once again Bob, people show that the idea of market segments, buyer demographics, and the idea that a 2 door purpose built, low production sports cars is alot different from limited edition, fast, 4 passenger volume based coupe is a concept that might take too high an IQ to comprehend for some. ;)


..You're the only game in town, you old coot! It's easy to be boastful when there is no direct competition,....

And whose fault is that?

All i have to say is look in any history book. The Camaro has always been faster stock for stock. GM just dosent loose HP wars it chooses to fight in...

Yea.... everyone would be a prize fighter if they only fought the fights they choose to fight in.

This is getting pretty pathetic. :lol:

Sometimes....Ford guys are pathetic. They take the Chevy rivalry too seriously.

Re-read the posts on this thread.

I'm highly doubtful of a 600 h.p. Mustang. WHY? I know for must more horsepower is still not enough horsepower ,but 600 is getting rediculious. Make the 2009 Mustang a good 300-400 hundred pounds lighter subtract the 600 h.p and make it 500 with a N/A version of the 6.2 boss. Less weight means it'll handle,brake and generally go quicker . No matter what anyone tell's you in the end power to weight ratio does matter. Carol Shelby might be talkin some high numbers , but until it's on the street I won't believe it.

Yet you believe in a Camaro that's still only an autoshow "concept"?

My 87 Iroc 350 eats the 80s & 90s Mustangs for lunch at the track. I mean most of these guys go 15s while my stock Iroc ran a constent 14.7 which is below stock numbers for the car.

Not when both were new & stock it didn't.
Ask anyone around at the time.

Yep. Once again Bob, people show that the idea of market segments, buyer demographics, and the idea that a 2 door purpose built, low production sports cars is alot different from limited edition, fast, 4 passenger volume based coupe is a concept that might take too high an IQ to comprehend for some. ;)


Its apples to oranges but people will do it all day long, and they aren't stupid because of it. :rolleyes:

The price range is similiar, the performance is similiar the usability is similiar. The only way you are getting four passengers in the Stang is if two of them are in elementary. We aren't comparing a Freightliner to a Civic here.

Guy, You had your coffee and muffin this morning? ;) You're on fire and the sun isn't even up!! :)

Late night at work.

I was also pumped up on too much Red Bull. :)


Worst arguement and spelling ever. Cars are not investments. Im sure you know that when adjusted for inflation very few cars make any money worth speaking about. If someone told you there car was more likely to appreciate in value at the track you would die laughing.


Not really a valid point because of the price difference...if you really wanted to invest the $$, buying a $250K ford is not the way to go. You're better off buying the Vette and investing the difference in something other than a car.

First, a Z06 won't run away from a Ford GT, second, there's no documented case of anyone actually dying from laughing, 3rd, if you think my spelling is bad, you need to come to this site more often, and finally, I made a perfectly valid point and here's why.

The Ford GT is going to be bought more by car collectors who MIGHT take their car to a track once a year when there's a Ford GT gathering much like the Ferrari-Lamborgini gathering that takes over a few days down in Monterey every summer, and rents out Laguna Seca. These cars are toys for rich guys, and the GT is a Supercar.

Corvette Z06 is a car that will be a special intrest car attraction at Corvette gatherings. A car bought by the average guy who was more than a little lucky with his 401K, or the guy whose business is doing well and who always wanted a Corvette, and now that the kids are at school are going to buy the best Vette they can. Not an issue with the Ford GT guys.

I do agree that it's good to hear some passion coming from Shelby about the Mustang vs. Camaro debate...maybe it'll light more of a fire under GM's arses...

At least YOU understand! :bow: :thumb:

I hope someone at Chevrolet takes Carol's words and prints them out with a picture of a ford oval.
I hope they post it on every door in the building.
I hope they place 1 on everyone's desk in the building.
I hope they tape it to the bathroom stalls and at the urinal where the newspaper goes.
I hope they read it over the intercom before work starts every morning.
Make 1000 copies and tape them all over whatever physical piece they are working with now. Be it a production ready floor, a pair of shocks being developed, or a pile of leather being studied for sewing.
Maybe even put Carol's mug shot on it beside the blue oval.

Although i think Carol is blowing smoke though. Its just a smoke-screen to the Ford faithful to make them forget that in the last few years Ford has blown the dust off an old design sketch and call it a 'new' car, and nothing else.

Its about damn time they make some power with the Mustang. For some reason they make good horsepower while the Camaro is out.

Will they (ford) really put up when Camaro come back, or retreat to their massive 310hp corner of the ring.

Not when both were new & stock it didn't.
Ask anyone around at the time.

/me raises his hand...

http://members.cox.net/bobcosby/stang/images/z28.jpg


http://members.cox.net/bobcosby/stang/images/mmffsp90.jpg

:cool:

Its apples to oranges but people will do it all day long, and they aren't stupid because of it. :rolleyes:

Stupid?

Probally not.

Dumber than a box of rocks?

Jury's still out on that one. :think:

The price range is similiar, the performance is similiar the usability is similiar. The only way you are getting four passengers in the Stang is if two of them are in elementary. We aren't comparing a Freightliner to a Civic here.

BMW M3 is in the same price and performance range. So is at least 1 AMG Mercedes. The refrigerator and stove in my house also are both in the same price range and go into the same room of my house.

The former Mustang Cobra-Chevrolet Corvette comparison came about in a magazine (Car & Driver if I remember) some years ago because of 2 reasons:

1. Camaro was dead, and there was nothing else GM had that could run with it.

2. The magazine was amazed that a 4 passenger, high volume car could be massaged to the point that it could keep up with a sports car that was purpose built from the 1st bolt to to be the type of track car it was.

Since the GT500 came out, with the continued lack of a Camaro, regardless as to how much you show who the buyers of both cars actually are, there's still a few people whose still want to subsitute reality with whatever is real in their own mind. This is the type of stuff that used to drive Scott crazy.

It simply amuses the daylights out of me. :lol:

/me raises his hand...

http://members.cox.net/bobcosby/stang/images/z28.jpg


http://members.cox.net/bobcosby/stang/images/mmffsp90.jpg

:cool:

Simply AWESOME !!! :bow:

It's funny how many people still think Camaros were always quicker than Mustangs. If Camaro hadn't been given their a** by Mustangs for nearly a decade, we wouldn't have had the phenominal performing Camaros (and Firebirds) of the 90s.

Guess that's one way to tell how old they are. :lol:

The former Mustang Cobra-Chevrolet Corvette comparison came about in a magazine (Car & Driver if I remember) some years ago because of 2 reasons:

1. Camaro was dead, and there was nothing else GM had that could run with it.

2. The magazine was amazed that a 4 passenger, high volume car could be massaged to the point that it could keep up with a sports car that was purpose built from the 1st bolt to to be the type of track car it was.

Since the GT500 came out, with the continued lack of a Camaro, regardless as to how much you show who the buyers of both cars actually are, there's still a few people whose still want to subsitute reality with whatever is real in their own mind. This is the type of stuff that used to drive Scott crazy.

It simply amuses the daylights out of me. :lol:

Huh? Im fairly sure Mustang and Corvette have been getting compared whenever a Mustang approached Camaro or when Thunderbird/Corvette or Mustang/Camaro was not going on.

In any case, I perfectly understand that no one is going to be up late deciding between the two, if you want either you've probably wanted that for a while and thats what you want.

That doesen't mean that a comparison of performance or value of whatever is useless, or as seem to think absurb.

LOL. Here we go again.

Give me a break. You weren't even driving in 1987 when those cars were new. New 5.0 LXs we easy mid 14 second cars (in capable hands), and a few were documented in the 13.9s (see Cars Illustrated, Spring 88 edition). My own 88 Coupe went 14.0 (a month after I bought it, brand new).

As for 14.7 being "below stock" for those cars - I distinctly remember a 350 IROC running at Great Lakes Dragaway in 1988 running consistent 14.2-14.3 stone stock - with only a good cool down and icing of the intake. We were pretty much all flabbergasted that it ran that. In those years, the only new cars that ever gave us trouble were the TRs (and they gave us a LOT of trouble).

Agree. An L98 car could hit low 14's with a decent driver. The key is in the low 60' times as the engine falls on it's face at the end of the track.

I'd say (give or take) the Mustangs and Camaros of those years were basically driver wars.

Although! The Mustangs were MUCH easier to mod and get more power out for less $$$ then the L98. You basically had to rip off the TPI/heads if you wanted good power (300+) out of those motors.

The Torque is what made them fun though, that's for sure.

I know that the GT40 was created because Ford wanted a GT car, but couldn't purchase Ferrari and apparently that PO'd Henry Ford II. So he threw an unlimited budget onto the GT40 project and Shelby ended up involved in a direct way but I don't know if his role was that integral.

I'm pretty sure it wasn't until he took over that the GT40's took LeMans 1,2,3 though.

I am aware of the GT40's famous history, but Shelby's involvement is what alludes me. If I had more time at the moment, I would probably look it up. Oh well, maybe later.

The fox Mustangs were/are so easy to hook up on the street though. And most everyone with a Camaro had an RS 305 tpi anyways. The few that had the 350 tpi's had quick cars for the time, but its just most bought the 305.

OK after this you guys can tell me to shut up & sit down because I dont know what the heck I am talking about.

1987 Ford Mustang GT 6.7 15.30
1987 Chevrolet Camaro IROC-Z L98 6.8 15.30
http://www.ssmoparmuscle.com/speedcomp.htm?NORDERBY=make&OORDERBY=sixty&OORDERDIR=ASC

Give me a break. You weren't even driving in 1987 when those cars were new. New 5.0 LXs we easy mid 14 second cars (in capable hands), and a few were documented in the 13.9s (see Cars Illustrated, Spring 88 edition). My own 88 Coupe went 14.0 (a month after I bought it, brand new).

How would you know? what I was doing in 87 you not my father or my mother. As a matter of fact I was driving in 87 since we owned a farm & I was able to drive the farm truck.

As for 14.7 being "below stock" for those cars - I distinctly remember a 350 IROC running at Great Lakes Dragaway in 1988 running consistent 14.2-14.3 stone stock - with only a good cool down and icing of the intake. We were pretty much all flabbergasted that it ran that. In those years, the only new cars that ever gave us trouble were the TRs (and they gave us a LOT of trouble).

You have to remember If I am driving a 14.68 here in washington state at my tracks here. doesnt mean someone 200 miles (heck for that matter 50 Miles) down the road is going to be running the same times. or even close to the same times I am. Because of the location on sea level, Air, & other factors.

As a matter of fact My car has ran ( lol I was just looking up the time sheet set up that we have) ran 14.669 on STREET tires wtih a 60 ft of 1.992 @ 93.21 4yrs ago. Now the car hasnt raced in two years because we are rebuilding the engine to a 355.

Third Gen years were drivers races against the top models, only an LX 5sp. was gonna give a G92 L98 car a real race. The heavier GT wasn't beating them. I know of 2 L98 cars that managed a 13.9 or 13.8 stock, but one was a 1LE and the other a B4C. (the only thing that car had was a Flowmaster and K&N's) Even some magazines managed 5.9 0-60's. If you can really launch an L98 car, (which most people can't, it really is difficult on the street) even an LX that's being powershifted is going to have trouble, because TPI's are all about the launch, 60ft., 1/8 mile, 0-60, etc.

Regardless, the only thing stock that 5.0's had for them was weight, we had more power, nearly 50 lb.ft. more, and any other category of performance went to Thirds. If they weighed the same as some of those LX's, it never would have been a contest, 14.1's and 14.2's were common, especially in the SD cars which had the most power. Look at what the Corvettes with the same engine were capable of, high 13's stock. Imagine low option L98's with manuals and 3.45's and such, GM should have went all out like they did with the 4ths.

OK after this you guys can tell me to shut up & sit down because I dont know what the heck I am talking about.

1987 Ford Mustang GT 6.7 15.30
1987 Chevrolet Camaro IROC-Z L98 6.8 15.30
http://www.ssmoparmuscle.com/speedcomp.htm?NORDERBY=make&OORDERBY=sixty&OORDERDIR=ASC



Not sure what the point is of this info. Both times suck for both cars. My money is still on a Fox LX stick everytime over an L98, given both drivers are good.

Wow, a really hot thread! Well, I agree with the guy that said, that's cool. I hope it gets the generals dander up. I was surprised to hear that CS was sticking with Ford so much, it was sort of surprising. And I'm kind of glad, too. Performance enthusiasts are growing in power! And I'd like my American model freshly squeezed, please! :D

Nothing like a good ol' rivalry, but rest assured, there's no doubt in my mind that Chevrolet could match and/or exceed anything from FORD.

Chevrolet, FORD, and MOPAR can all build exceptional cars, capable of out performing the other brands, if they put their minds to it. To say one manufacturer will out perform the other or be "King of the mountain" is crazy, IMO.

Whine, whine, whine. Why? Because someone displayed a bit of boastful pride in their product? Sorry if your fragile feelings and sense of selfworth were bruised, but if it the situation was reversed, you'd be smearing feaces on the wall and chearing like a madman.

Carroll Shelby deserves a TON of respect. He's probally accomplished more in a week than you probally will in your life. How much professional racing have YOU done? How many cars have YOU developed that not only have a world wide reputation, but command ungodly amounts of cash to purchase today? How much has both Chrysler and Ford given YOU for use of your name, because of the value it carries?

I've met the man, and to tell the truth, I refuse to let some little whiny so-and-so down grade the guy just because he layed down the gauntlet to GM to really produce a car that can compete with the GT500. How do you think the GM engineer, or the GM beancounter with an ounce of corperate pride is going to react to this? If I were you, I'd be writing Carroll Shelby offering to do his underwear for a year.... not just because he deserves the respect you say you lost, but because he singlehandedly wiped away the LAST remaining hurdles and fencesitters at GM that would have even remotely considered not producing the Camaro, or putting less power in the car than it should have.

It's G-R-E-A-T to hear car makers having so much pride in their ride that they talk smak and challenge the other side to not only make a car, but to give it their best shot in performance.

I thought that spirit died when Colletti left Ford. At least Shelby still has some balls in that company. They sorely need it. :lol:
Well spoken, I couldn't agree more!! :thumb:

I agree, Carroll Shelby deserves alot of respect. There should be more like him.

I am aware of the GT40's famous history, but Shelby's involvement is what alludes me. If I had more time at the moment, I would probably look it up. Oh well, maybe later.


I have alot of respect for Shelby. Id never had thought Id be routing against him. Before Shelby the GT40 was crap. If I remember correctly the engine wasnt holding up, they were using Ferrari transmission that couldnt take the torque. I believe he stuck a NASCAR motor in the thing and worked the bugs out. They got a transmission that could handle the motor and he worked the bugs out. Thats when they started winning, or actually finishing races for that matter. But my memory is horrible.

Of course he used to race Old Yeller II, came up with the Cobra which was American Muscle in a british 2 seater AC roadster, and of course the 60's Mustang.

We'll get to settle it soon (or late) enough. May the best car and driver win!:cool:

OK after this you guys can tell me to shut up & sit down because I dont know what the heck I am talking about.

1987 Ford Mustang GT 6.7 15.30
1987 Chevrolet Camaro IROC-Z L98 6.8 15.30
http://www.ssmoparmuscle.com/speedcomp.htm?NORDERBY=make&OORDERBY=sixty&OORDERDIR=ASC

I'm pretty sure I could pull out several magazines from the time period in question that showed the Mustang beating the Camaro, and some of the Camaro beating the Mustang, and some even showing a dead heat. That doesn't change the fact that the quickest 5.0s of the day were quicker (when properly driven) than even the L98 IROC/Z28/GTA.

How would you know? what I was doing in 87 you not my father or my mother. As a matter of fact I was driving in 87 since we owned a farm & I was able to drive the farm truck.
LOL. Ok. You got me there. I didn't consider that 14 year olds might be driving tractors on the farm. I'll just sit down and shut up after that one. :p

You have to remember If I am driving a 14.68 here in washington state at my tracks here. doesnt mean someone 200 miles (heck for that matter 50 Miles) down the road is going to be running the same times. or even close to the same times I am. Because of the location on sea level, Air, & other factors.
Ummmm....ya, I'm fairly aware of some of those variables, different tracks, etc.

As a matter of fact My car has ran ( lol I was just looking up the time sheet set up that we have) ran 14.669 on STREET tires wtih a 60 ft of 1.992 @ 93.21 4yrs ago. Now the car hasnt raced in two years because we are rebuilding the engine to a 355.
Cool. My 88 Coupe went 14.08 @ 99 MPH on STREET tires with an I-don't-remember-what 60 ft (because it has been too long ago) back in July of 1988 at Indy. Significance? Horrid air (July in Indianapolis) and a 'rookie' driver (me, at the time), the car still did pretty well....especially for 1988, IMHO.

Third Gen years were drivers races against the top models, only an LX 5sp. was gonna give a G92 L98 car a real race. The heavier GT wasn't beating them. I know of 2 L98 cars that managed a 13.9 or 13.8 stock, but one was a 1LE and the other a B4C. (the only thing that car had was a Flowmaster and K&N's) Even some magazines managed 5.9 0-60's. If you can really launch an L98 car, (which most people can't, it really is difficult on the street) even an LX that's being powershifted is going to have trouble, because TPI's are all about the launch, 60ft., 1/8 mile, 0-60, etc.
Even "flowmasters and a K&N" gives up the "stock" moniker in this day and age. Cars Illustrated (which later morphed into MM&FF) was going 13.6 with "free mods" in 87/88 Mustang LXs, and 13.9s with nothing - at all. Not even pulling the air horn. If you search the Mustang sites, you can find evidence of other Mustangs running 13.9s bone stock. Find a 3rd Gen (non-TTA) that has done that.

Additionally, as I'm sure you are aware, the the only difference between a GT and an LX was weight - and there was less than 100 lbs of total difference, assuming they were equipped similarly, between an LX Coupe and a GT (all of which were hatchbacks, of course), thus the difference in performance was marginal.

I would suggest that launching an M5 LX 5.0 is at least as hard as launching an L98 A4. Certainly after the launch the M5 requires skill versus a stab-n-steer car.

Regardless, the only thing stock that 5.0's had for them was weight, we had more power, nearly 50 lb.ft. more, and any other category of performance went to Thirds.
Torque is over-rated, until you multiply it by RPM, of course. At which point it becomes.......

But I agree that a 3rd Gen outperformed the Mustang in twisties, stopping (most certainly stopping), etc.

If they weighed the same as some of those LX's, it never would have been a contest, 14.1's and 14.2's were common, especially in the SD cars which had the most power.
Yes, and if the GT500 weighed the same as a Vette......err...nevermind.

14.1s & 14.2s were possible, but hardly common. Not even sort of common.

Look at what the Corvettes with the same engine were capable of, high 13's stock. Imagine low option L98's with manuals and 3.45's and such, GM should have went all out like they did with the 4ths.
Coulda, shoulda, woulda, and didn't. I agree though - an L98 Vette with a manual would give a lightweight LX all it could handle in the 1/4 mile.

See - we can agree. :D

Bob

Mindgames... obviously preaching to the Ford faithful to not lose hope, to not cross the floor! :)

I guess Carrol Shelby might be hinting at the Hurricane motor. If Ford can produce an LSx equivalent, the Mustang would have a lot more going for it. By that stage, Comaro will have LS3 and/or LS9 if the need arises.

The author is right, interesting times ahead.

Hurricane engine in a lighter car for '09 if they can pull that off would kick ass. You have to remember that the Mustang is Bill Fords pet and they pretty much know Chevy's game plan 2+ years before the car is going to hit the showroom floor. I believe the Pony car wars are going to go where they have never been before, an all out assault on horsepower.

I'm highly doubtful of a 600 h.p. Mustang. WHY? I know for must more horsepower is still not enough horsepower ,but 600 is getting rediculious. Make the 2009 Mustang a good 300-400 hundred pounds lighter subtract the 600 h.p and make it 500 with a N/A version of the 6.2 boss. Less weight means it'll handle,brake and generally go quicker . No matter what anyone tell's you in the end power to weight ratio does matter. Carol Shelby might be talkin some high numbers , but until it's on the street I won't believe it.

He never said that a 600 hp car would be made in large quantities. I could see a run of 300-500 cars and called the Shelby "R". It could be the same sort of thing that the Cobra R was back in 2000.

I'm pretty sure I could pull out several magazines from the time period in question that showed the Mustang beating the Camaro, and some of the Camaro beating the Mustang, and some even showing a dead heat. That doesn't change the fact that the quickest 5.0s of the day were quicker (when properly driven) than even the L98 IROC/Z28/GTA.


Bob, you didn't get the memo. Forget the L98.

The L03 is l33t and own3d ALL. ;)

http://mm-racing.com/Dscn0069.jpg

I'm pretty sure I could pull out several magazines from the time period in question that showed the Mustang beating the Camaro, and some of the Camaro beating the Mustang, and some even showing a dead heat. That doesn't change the fact that the quickest 5.0s of the day were quicker (when properly driven) than even the L98 IROC/Z28/GTA.




I have to say that is generally true.

A 5.0, M5, LX sedan with a 3.08 rear end was the one to beat. Could a G92 L98/A4 or G92 LB9/M5 take one down in a straight line? Of course. But the 3rd gen would be considered the underdog in that race.

OK after this you guys can tell me to shut up & sit down because I dont know what the heck I am talking about.

1987 Ford Mustang GT 6.7 15.30
1987 Chevrolet Camaro IROC-Z L98 6.8 15.30
http://www.ssmoparmuscle.com/speedcomp.htm?NORDERBY=make&OORDERBY=sixty&OORDERDIR=ASC


There's the problem right there! The Mustang GT was the slowest version of the 5.0 next to the GT convertible! :lol:

EVERYONE who was alive, into cars, and driving in the 1980s know the Mustang LX.......especially the notchback coupe.... was significantly quicker than the GT!

The notchback 5.0 was the ticket. It carried a base vehicle weight of barely 3200 pounds, while a fully loaded GT weighed in around 3400 pounds.

My '85 SSP weighed 3192! :bow:

Huh? Im fairly sure Mustang and Corvette have been getting compared whenever a Mustang approached Camaro or when Thunderbird/Corvette or Mustang/Camaro was not going on.

In any case, I perfectly understand that no one is going to be up late deciding between the two, if you want either you've probably wanted that for a while and thats what you want.

That doesen't mean that a comparison of performance or value of whatever is useless, or as seem to think absurb.

Absurd? No. It's fun to see how well a modified mass produced chassis compares to a special engineered one.

It's alot harder to make a economy car or full size car chassis perform like a sports car than it is to simply engineer a sports car from the ground up.That's what the comparison's about. Not useless, but fun.

The other point you also nail. No one is going to stay up reading up on the 2 deciding which one to buy. It simply cracks me up that some actually think people spend time going over brochures and magazine reports of a GT500 and a Corvette or even a Z06, and compare shop the 2, regardless as to what the profiles of real, live, breathing, non-imaginary buyers of the actual cars really are.

I recall the AWD Mitsu Evo being in a comparison test with a Mustang. It was also in the same price range, and was also close in performance. By association, a Camaro (if it was in production) would have also been in that test. No one's going to compare shop an Evo with a Mustang, but it was an intresting test nonetheless.

Now let me guess..... (*squeaky whiny voice*) "But that's different....... the Evo has 4 doors......"

Some people here........Gotta love it! :lol: :D

...Regardless, the only thing stock that 5.0's had for them was weight, we had more power...

Doesn't impress this crowd here IZ28.

I'm sure that you've read the dozen or so posts from people who aren't impressed with the power of the GT500 because of the weight.

.....just trying to protect against collective amnesia that pops up here from time to time. ;)

Hurricane engine in a lighter car for '09 if they can pull that off would kick ass. You have to remember that the Mustang is Bill Fords pet and they pretty much know Chevy's game plan 2+ years before the car is going to hit the showroom floor. I believe the Pony car wars are going to go where they have never been before, an all out assault on horsepower.

You bring up a few bullseyes here Scott.

Mustang is going to continue even if it means wiping out Lincoln Mercury. That's how comitted to Mustang Bill Ford is. If I remember, he's own a Mustang every single year since the early 90s.

Next, the Hurricane is going to replace Ford's V10 mod engines. It's going to be more compact, and produce more power than the V10 currently does (let alone being lighter & heaps cheaper to produce). Ford is no doubt going to switch to this new Hurricane engine for some model of Mustang. Since the engine already puts out more horses than the V10 (let alone the 5.4 V8) and it's already compact and lighter, and Ford seems to have a liking for superchargers, one can only imagine what hell-monster Ford can turn the Mustang into.

Heck, even the current boat anchor of an engine is capable of (and this comes directly from the guys who built it) well in excess of 600 horsepower while still meeting durability requirements!

There's the problem right there! The Mustang GT was the slowest version of the 5.0 next to the GT convertible! :lol:

EVERYONE who was alive, into cars, and driving in the 1980s know the Mustang LX.......especially the notchback coupe.... was significantly quicker than the GT!

The notchback 5.0 was the ticket. It carried a base vehicle weight of barely 3200 pounds, while a fully loaded GT weighed in around 3400 pounds.

My '85 SSP weighed 3192! :bow:



Yup, the GT convertible with auto was a 15 second car. The LX sedan was the one to get, if you wanted to go fast.

Let me just add one point on the 3rd gen Camaro, specifically the IROC-Z, (which for half a decade was the direct competitor to 5.0 Mustangs). They came in a dizzying variety of engine and drivetrain combos.....not all of them very fast.

You could get the base LG4/L03 305 with auto or manual trans, with or without (some years) performance axle ratio. You could get an LB9 in lots of configurations as well. With a Corvette L98 cam (G92, M5) or with the "peanut" L03 cam. With a single cat exhaust or a free flowing dual cat exhaust. A4 or M5, 2.73, 3.08 or 3.45 axle ratio.
Same with the B2L 5.7. Dual exhaust or single. 2.73 gear or 3.27.
Lots of variety there.

Put it like this. If you didn't have one of the two G92 combos, an M5 LX sedan, would pick you off like it was clubbing baby seals.

I recall the AWD Mitsu Evo being in a comparison test with a Mustang. It was also close in performance.


I don't know about that. Maybe in a straight line, but even then a GT would likely concede to an Evo.

So what I want to know is, will the Hurricane engine keep up Ford's abysmal gas mileage or will it actually be decent? I've been seeing mileage numbers from guys with modded 05 GTs and they are dipping down into like 12 mpg city.

Put it like this. If you didn't have one of the two G92 combos, an M5 LX sedan, would pick you off like it was clubbing baby seals.

I'd agree w/ that. You had to option up the Camaro in just the right way to hang w/ the lower hp'd LX.

So what I want to know is, will the Hurricane engine keep up Ford's abysmal gas mileage or will it actually be decent? I've been seeing mileage numbers from guys with modded 05 GTs and they are dipping down into like 12 mpg city.

I lot of that is simply how one drives. Though not an 05 3V, I routinely pulled down 25+ with my 99 Cobra 4V that was equipped with 4.56 gearing - and never less than 18 in the city. My 99 T/A (mostly stock) got slightly better highway mileage (26-28), but a bit worse in the city.

Bob

There were so many versions of 3rd gens on the road, there were even '89 5.0L H.O. /5spd. versions with dual cats, and 235HP...
But like Bob was saying, unless you had the same professional driver, unbiased, drive both cars back to back...how will you know which is "properly driven", and hitting its potential?
I was driving then, and street racing, and remember far more 5.0L Camaro's on the road than L98's, and many of those later with TBI, so a Mustang owner could easily get an opinion of Mustangs being faster.
And the L98's weren't restricted as much by heads as they were by the extremely long intake tubes, which were better suited on the 5.0L's.
But the Big Bad Buick's ruled the streets in the '80's..:bow:
I raced them many times, usually with the same results..:cry:

He never said that a 600 hp car would be made in large quantities. I could see a run of 300-500 cars and called the Shelby "R". It could be the same sort of thing that the Cobra R was back in 2000.
I do agree with you on that one. This 600 h.p. Mustang could be a limited model. It's just sounds crazy to me that a company would sell a 600 plus horsepower vehicle with a 50,000 mile warranty. Either way it's awesome that it might be a reality. The days that the Mustang,Camaro and Challenger roam the street's again will be gloreous.

Shelby has done some wonderful things in the past, but persoanlly he is an egotistacal loud mouth ass. My 8 year old SS still spanks new Mustangs in every way, but I do like the new Mustang

Your 8 year old SS spanking new Mustangs, has what to do with Carroll Shelby............. exactly???

He is proud of the car that carries his name. He has earned that right. What cars have you designed and built........... that carry your name???

Your 8 year old SS spanking new Mustangs, has what to do with Carroll Shelby............. exactly???

He is proud of the car that carries his name. He has earned that right. What cars have you designed and built........... that carry your name???

Because Shelby is opening his big mouth an how great the Mustang is. I think its sad that a car that is 8 years old is faster/handles better in everyway than an 06 Mustang GT. I would even put money that my 8 year old SS will be faster at auto x then the new GT500.
Also Shelby didnt do **** as far as design is concerned with the new GT 500. It only has his name on it.

Mustang must be doing something right. Its available. Sad or not.

Bob

Mustang must be doing something right. Its available. Sad or not.

Bob
Its not in the cars magic, but its in Ford. (not saying the car isnt fun and affordable, it is)

GM let corporate override soul just over a decade ago.

OMG, did the 400 hp Corvette just spank up on that 500 hp Cobra in M/T.....

I BELIEVE SO!

When is Carrol going to wake up and realize its not ALL about power, its also about weight. I figured a guy with this much automotive sense would realize that his 500 hp Cobra would get run the hell over by a 430-450 hp Camaro.

When it all comes down to it, he is a senile, old coot, who has nothing better to do with his time than bitch at everything.

He made like 2 bad ass cars in his life, and he has been riding the wave off it for 40 years.

Ugh.... :rolleyes:

As engineers and designers work on the Camaro - everytime the corporate culture/bean counter/non-autophile marketing types, apply pressure for a larger than the concept Camaro, or a heavy Camaro, the following passage should be used as a quick inoculation:

When asked for his impressions of the Camaro concept, Shelby said, "I don't think it's sensational, but I think it's adequate." He added: "I don't think the Camaro will come out with anything that puts us down. We are ahead of the game. And we know how to stay ahead. I don't see people — the general press or the public — knocking the design of the Mustang."


Now go get 'em boys.......

OMG, did the 400 hp Corvette just spank up on that 500 hp Cobra in M/T.....

I BELIEVE SO!

When is Carrol going to wake up and realize its not ALL about power, its also about weight. I figured a guy with this much automotive sense would realize that his 500 hp Cobra would get run the hell over by a 430-450 hp Camaro.

When it all comes down to it, he is a senile, old coot, who has nothing better to do with his time than bitch at everything.

He made like 2 bad ass cars in his life, and he has been riding the wave off it for 40 years.

Please, all knowing one............... please let us in on your age. I would like to know if my guess is correct.

Thank you in advance.

OMG, did the 400 hp Corvette just spank up on that 500 hp Cobra in M/T.....

I BELIEVE SO!


I didn't realize the base model Vette could trap over 117+ mph.

Please, all knowing one............... please let us in on your age. I would like to know if my guess is correct.

Thank you in advance.
Listen GAL, Please let me in on how my age has anything to do with this.

Maybe my statements about him were harsh. But his name and image are so worked up and over-rated, its like I dont even care if it has his name on it or not...in fact, i would rather it not have his name on it.

I think that he has contributed to automotive society, but not at the level that everyone thinks. He has had a great run, but i dont think all the respect he gets is deserved. Like said earlier in this thread, he is the guy that told ENZO FERRARI, basically one of the greatest automotive designers and builders of all time, that he was going to "kick his ass". What a tool.

And i just lost a little more respect for him after these comments.

But as far as thats concerned, hey, maybe this brash commenting by C.S. will push the General to build the Camaro even more. haha.

Nothing wrong with a little competition...

It's interesting how GM basically gives all Fbody owners the finger in 02 yet people are still loyal.

It's interesting how GM basically gives all Fbody owners the finger in 02 yet people are still loyal.
Its just part of the passion.

GM can give me the finger all they want but it still doesnt change my interpritation of the Mustang or change the way I feel about how it looks.

Everyone who owns a Mustang in my area bought it because they wanted something thats supposed to be fast. I bought my Camaro because it Is fast (and sleek looking and black ;))

In 2002, Chevrolet didn't come get either of mine and theyre not going to. What Ford has done since then Still does not interest me one ounce.

...What Ford has done since then Still does not interest me one ounce.

No, It's just made you and every other Fbod owner envious.

No, It's just made you and every other Fbod owner envious.

I don't envy the car itself, save for maybe the fact that they're still building their pony car.

It's "funny" how when a Camaro guy doesn't like the new Mustang, it's all just "jealousy". :rolleyes:

No, It's just made you and every other Fbod owner envious.
Even hand grenades wouldnt get you closer to target.

With my current situation of just buying a house (my first) and 2 other vehicles in the last 2 years I wouldnt have bought a Camaro if they had been around from ~04 to (thru) next model year. After that though.... :)

I didn't realize the base model Vette could trap over 117+ mph.
That has nothing to do with the fact that its faster than the GT 500.

Here is this months Car and Driver. Take a good look at this second pic and tell me why what you just said matters at all.

http://img418.imageshack.us/img418/3796/14sm.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img418.imageshack.us/img418/7968/32xs.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Even despite the 100 hp and 80 lb tq. advantage, the GT500 still isnt as fast as the Base Corvette.

Now imagine what a Z06 would do to it...or a 430 hp Camaro.

So i guess to answer your question NO, the vette doesnt trap 117. But to answer the more important question, The vette is still faster.

That has nothing to do with the fact that its faster than the GT 500.So i guess to answer your question NO, the vette doesnt trap 117. But to answer the more important question, The vette is still faster


finally facts!!!

Shelby is an icon, to slam him because he's just supporting his product by a little saber rattling doesnt make sense..

Im with whomever above said if he wants to talk smack let him.. more reason / probablility that the camaro will be all that much better.

-steve

Shelby has done some wonderful things in the past, but persoanlly he is an egotistacal loud mouth ass. My 8 year old SS still spanks new Mustangs in every way, but I do like the new Mustang

Egotistical loud mouth ass?.... Yet you brag your 8 year old SS "still spanks new Mustangs in every way".... though obviously not true?

Ever hear of the word: "Irony" bub?

Because Shelby is opening his big mouth an how great the Mustang is. I think its sad that a car that is 8 years old is faster/handles better in everyway than an 06 Mustang GT...

So, tell me.... between Mustang and Camaro, which of the 2 was sent to the grave by the other 4 years ago, and is still in production???


OMG, did the 400 hp Corvette just spank up on that 500 hp Cobra in M/T.....

I BELIEVE SO!

When is Carrol going to wake up and realize its not ALL about power, its also about weight. I figured a guy with this much automotive sense would realize that his 500 hp Cobra would get run the hell over by a 430-450 hp Camaro.

When it all comes down to it, he is a senile, old coot, who has nothing better to do with his time than bitch at everything.

He made like 2 bad ass cars in his life, and he has been riding the wave off it for 40 years.


1. That Corvette was built from the 1st bolt as a 2 seat sports car. The GT500 is a modified 4 seat passenger car. Only in the age where schools teach that everyone is a delicate unique flower will you find someone who lacks a competitive vehicle (Camaro) will someone attempt to throw a Corvette into the mix & then brag that it beats a Mustang.

2. I think anyone who disparages Caroll Shelby, and degrades what he's done in the automotive world is completely ignorant of automotive history, and pretty pathetic...... dude, grow up!

3. Made 2 bad azzed cars in his life? And exactly what have you done with your life? This is an adult conversation here amongst people who know a little bit about automotive history, and appriciate all types of cars. Many here know that GM doesn't have a lock of every great car (or automotive personalities) that have ever existed.


If you want to run here, holster the juvenile mentality, this isn't "The Lounge". If you don't like the Mustang, nothing wrong with that. If you don't like the GT500 because it's too heavy, too gaudy, it isn't a Chevy, or some other reason, you'll get no disagreement from me.

But if a world famous race driver & automotive figure that was forced into retirement because of a heart condition.... went on afterwards to be the 1st to prove that American ingenuity can overcome races dominated by European brands... almost singlehandedly create a whole class of cars including Z28, Trans Am (the race series & the car) & the 1st real challenge to the 4 cylinder turbo Japanese wondercars of the 80s... help create a outrageous car like the Viper... create his own car from the ground up in the 90s... and then hired back to give imput on the development of an American supercar & the 1st 500 horsepower production car with more than 2 seats... then on top of it all, started and ran at least 2 successful businesses that didn't have to do with cars, gets unwarranted flack from some flea specks that resort to flaming and degrading the fellow because he has the guts and balls to stand behind something that carries his name 100% (and insulted their delicate sense of self worth), I might have a "little bit" of an issue with that.... especially after actually meeting Caroll Shelby, as anyone who has will probally also has (and thousands more who haven't) might also have.

As engineers and designers work on the Camaro - everytime the corporate culture/bean counter/non-autophile marketing types, apply pressure for a larger than the concept Camaro, or a heavy Camaro, the following passage should be used as a quick inoculation:




Now go get 'em boys.......

:D You can bet they have that article pinned on the wall somewhere, & it's being passed around throughout GM!

....as opposed to degradating a automotive legend like some schoolyard sissy. :lol:


Listen GAL, Please let me in on how my age has anything to do with this.

She doesn't have to. You are doing it very well yourself. :lol:

Maybe my statements about him were harsh. But his name and image are so worked up and over-rated, its like I dont even care if it has his name on it or not...in fact, i would rather it not have his name on it.

I think that he has contributed to automotive society, but not at the level that everyone thinks. He has had a great run, but i dont think all the respect he gets is deserved. Like said earlier in this thread, he is the guy that told ENZO FERRARI, basically one of the greatest automotive designers and builders of all time, that he was going to "kick his ass". What a tool.

And i just lost a little more respect for him after these comments.



".....on the subject of 'what does age has to do with this'... the prosecution rests, your honor." ;)

No, It's just made you and every other Fbod owner envious.


:lol: You think just because the Camaro isn't being made right now people are envious of the new Mustang? Stop drinking the stupid juice bud.

1. That Corvette was built from the 1st bolt as a 2 seat sports car. The GT500 is a modified 4 seat passenger car. Only in the age where schools teach that everyone is a delicate unique flower will you find someone who lacks a competitive vehicle (Camaro) will someone attempt to throw a Corvette into the mix & then brag that it beats a Mustang.


If you look a little closer at the cover of the magazine posted you'll see that they were comparing Corvettes and Mustangs way back since 1968. :shrug:

But if a world famous race driver & automotive figure that was forced into retirement because of a heart condition.... went on afterwards to be the 1st to prove that American ingenuity can overcome races dominated by European brands... almost singlehandedly create a whole class of cars including Z28, Trans Am (the race series & the car) & the 1st real challenge to the 4 cylinder turbo Japanese wondercars of the 80s... help create a outrageous car like the Viper... create his own car from the ground up in the 90s... and then hired back to give imput on the development of an American supercar & the 1st 500 horsepower production car with more than 2 seats... then on top of it all, started and ran at least 2 successful businesses that didn't have to do with cars, gets unwarranted flack from some flea specks that resort to flaming and degrading the fellow because he has the guts and balls to stand behind something that carries his name 100% (and insulted their delicate sense of self worth), I might have a "little bit" of an issue with that.... especially after actually meeting Caroll Shelby, as anyone who has will probally also has (and thousands more who haven't) might also have.
[/color]'... the prosecution rests, your honor.[/i]" ;)
Its amazing you said all that with Carrol Shelby's penis in your mouth.

If you look a little closer at the cover of the magazine posted you'll see that they were comparing Corvettes and Mustangs way back since 1968. :shrug:
I wouldnt worry about it, he will find another excuse to prove his point.

1. That Corvette was built from the 1st bolt as a 2 seat sports car. The GT500 is a modified 4 seat passenger car. Only in the age where schools teach that everyone is a delicate unique flower will you find someone who lacks a competitive vehicle (Camaro) will someone attempt to throw a Corvette into the mix & then brag that it beats a Mustang.


How hard is it for you to comprehend that on a performance board, people will compare two performance cars that are in the same price? Nice job singleing Camaro owners when the same comparison goes down on Mustang forums too. :rolleyes:

And yes, when those initial 112 traps came out, there were many potential GT500 buyers who said they would rather get a C6 too.

It's not exactly rocket science.

Its amazing you said all that with Carrol Shelby's penis in your mouth.
LMAO

Thread locked in three....two.....one.....

What I don't get is, people always compared the Cobra R and mustangs of that sort to the Camaro SS and while the mustang guys said that was fair we called BS because of the big price difference and the fact the SS isn't a race car.

Now that the same argument is being used to compare the Shelby to the Corvette, the mustang guys object?

Hmmm curious.

My $0.02. I hope that Shelby keeps on talking...I wasn't around for the pony wars of the past(I'm only 22). I love having a Charger, Challenger, Mustang, and Camaro have the possibility of ruling the roads once more. Hopefully this will get the bean counters at GM to let the Camaro be what it truly should be. I've never known GM to back down from a horsepower war, hopefully this wont be any different.

I personally see the new Mustang as...well......every kid is cute in it's family's eyes. I love the 69 Shelby's....but the new ones dont do them justice.

Hopefully the new Camaro will make him eat his words.....but the man does deserve respect.

Ill say this about our lounge members posting in here.

In the same way most of them are too young to know what shelby has done, there is a whole nother crew he is also to young but goes to the opposite extreme with "But OMG Shelby invented the automobile" so... you know... thats life.

As far as Mustang having no "hiatus" its come close to the axe several times, the difference being GM let it die long before they killed it. At which point all the outcry in the world wouldn't have done anything, unlike when Mustang almost became Probe.

I mean really WTF kinda name is Probe? I may be a bit biased because it was my first car... and I was already 6'6"... That thing was a tank though, it took me a year doing as much damage as possible without hurting myself before my mother got rid of it... Anyway...

Its amazing you said all that with Carrol Shelby's penis in your mouth.

LOL. What was that you were saying about the Lounge, Guy?

Good Ph.D, other than the late 80s (Probe incident), when did the Mustang come "close to the axe"? Please provide some details of those "several times". Thanks.

Bob

PS...the latest - and IMHO, the greatest - iteration of the "Pony Car Wars" went on from 1982 to 2002. Not that long ago, even for some of you younger folks.

Shelby is an automotive ICON...his name comes to mind with the likes of Grumpy Jenkins, John Lingenfelter, Smoky Unick etc...
Anyone who is an automotive enthusiest knows his name well, regardless of brand loyalty, you have to give him his props!:bow:
Other than the Infamous SC/Cobra 427ci, 2 seater. He had a hand in designing many engine/powertrains in many different cars. GT350/GT500 Mustangs and the GT40 that won the Lemans, beating out Ferrari..!:bow:
Chrysler had a whole line up of fast cars with his magic under the hood.
intercooled/ turbo: Shadows, Chargers, Daytonas, GLH Omni(Goes Like Hell) etc.
And many more colaborations...
I'm sure a little web search would be enlightening to doubters...
He has a right to his opionion, ofcourse he's gonna be a little biased to his projects...so take it with a grain of salt.
Badmouthing him is just silly...:rolleyes:

Its amazing you said all that with Carrol Shelby's penis in your mouth.

Looks like BM will have some company in banned camp.....

That has nothing to do with the fact that its faster than the GT 500.

Here is this months Car and Driver. Take a good look at this second pic and tell me why what you just said matters at all.

http://img418.imageshack.us/img418/3796/14sm.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img418.imageshack.us/img418/7968/32xs.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Even despite the 100 hp and 80 lb tq. advantage, the GT500 still isnt as fast as the Base Corvette.

Now imagine what a Z06 would do to it...or a 430 hp Camaro.

So i guess to answer your question NO, the vette doesnt trap 117. But to answer the more important question, The vette is still faster.
Actually no it's not, every other mag that tested it (there were 5) had it going no slower than 113 in the 1/4. Leave it to you guys though to take the slowest time published to use it as a "fact" for your comparison. I also believe from another thread that they were not tested on the same day or on the same track.

Good Ph.D, other than the late 80s (Probe incident), when did the Mustang come "close to the axe"? Please provide some details of those "several times". Thanks.


Ok then "before" in any case the whole point was Ford isn't above making the mistakes GM has. I would say they are making far greater ones now.

Its amazing you said all that with Carrol Shelby's penis in your mouth.

I say 19.

My 4-year-old shows more respect..................

Its amazing you said all that with Carrol Shelby's penis in your mouth.

Gotta admit, as juvenile as this was, I still sort of laughed at it.

I can't seeing this thread going on much longer.

Ok then "before" in any case the whole point was Ford isn't above making the mistakes GM has. I would say they are making far greater ones now.

Concur completely with Ford (or any other corporation) not being above making mistakes like GM. As for "making far greater ones now"....guess we'll see. I don't particularly care where either one of them is going (with a few noteable exceptions).

Bob

PS...17. :)

will someone attempt to throw a Corvette into the mix & then brag that it beats a Mustang.

If this had gone the other way, there would have been no end to the amount of crap the Chevy faithful would have heard from the Ford camp. I have never had any problem seeing where you are coming from, and for the most part you are right that the cars sell to different kind of individuals, but this was a grudge match between two performance cars of similiar price. Honestly, I have no problem that they did this match up. Its obvious from the C&D article this isn't the first time it has happened.



1st 500 horsepower production car with more than 2 seats

Um, M5 anyone?

This car has 4 seats as well, and considerably more horsepower than 500.

http://www.rsportscars.com/eng/cars/m_cl65amg.asp

I say 19.

My 4-year-old shows more respect..................

Which is why you should feed her and not him.

What I don't get is, people always compared the Cobra R and mustangs of that sort to the Camaro SS

The Cobra R was built to beat the C5, not an fbody. Probably would have too, if the z06 didn't come to town. Oh wait, it is stupid to compare performance cars of a similar price on a performance car internet forum.


and while the mustang guys said that was fair we called BS because of the big price difference and the fact the SS isn't a race car.

I don't remember anyone actually comparing the R to the SS, because the R was so much more expensive.


Now that the same argument is being used to compare the Shelby to the Corvette, the mustang guys object?

Hmmm curious.

Simple. It's because the Mustang lost. If the Mustang had won, none of the Ford guys would be bitching about how it isn't fair to compare a Mustang to a Corvette.

I also believe from another thread that they were not tested on the same day or on the same track.

Yes they were. I have the magazine sitting in front of me. At least, they sure alude to it as being the same day by saying something along the lines of "well, we just got finished wringing out the Shelby, lets go try out the Vette."

I say 19.

My 4-year-old shows more respect..................
Oh kiss my ass. Like i could really give a flying **** about your damn kid. So quit talking to me like Im your kid, i dont need another ****ing mommy, mine died 6 years ago, back when i was 20, so i dont really need the kid talk ok.

And on the fact that you dont think i have respect. I love how everyone thinks they deserve respect when the first thing out of thier mouth is an insult.

F U C K you, At least i dont go parading around like i deserve respect, you have to earn it, and earning the respect of some bitch on a forum is just about the bottom of my list on **** to do this century. So get over it.

If they want to ban me, then so be it.

Oh kiss my ass. Like i could really give a flying **** about your damn kid. So quit talking to me like Im your kid, i dont need another ****ing mommy, mine died 6 years ago, back when i was 20, so i dont really need the kid talk ok.

And on the fact that you dont think i have respect. I love how everyone thinks they deserve respect when the first thing out of thier mouth is an insult.

F U C K you, At least i dont go parading around like i deserve respect, you have to earn it, and earning the respect of some bitch on a forum is just about the bottom of my list on **** to do this century. So get over it.

If they want to ban me, then so be it.

At this point, I would be kind of suprised if they didn't.

See I was right.

See I was right.
Bout what?

OMFG. This is good stuff! Thanks for the laughs! :bow:

Russtang....the GT is considerably more expensive than the Z06, yet those two are still compared. Just thought I'd throw that out there. :)

And I agree that a lot of Mustang folks would be crowing about the GT500 that much more if it had beaten the C6 in this particular test (still think it will out accelerate it - but only time will tell).

Bob

Yes they were. I have the magazine sitting in front of me. At least, they sure alude to it as being the same day by saying something along the lines of "well, we just got finished wringing out the Shelby, lets go try out the Vette."

That will teach to me to comment without reading the article first;)

Russtang....the GT is considerably more expensive than the Z06, yet those two are still compared. Just thought I'd throw that out there. :)


Simple. Comparisons like that sell magazines, and draw hits to websites. The Z06 is the highest performing vehicle GM currently offers, and the GT is likewise to Ford. Pretty simple why they were compared I think.

The magazines are going to want to put the GT500 against something, and considering there is no direct competition for it on the market right now, it seems to be generally accepted to pit it against a Vette of similar price. What else would you put against it? The playing field looks pretty silent for 07, give or take a few exceptions. They could have put the GT500 against the Z06 and ignored price discrepancy, but that would likely have been ugly. Magazines aren't out to sell cars, they are out to sell issues.

Agree completely. My comment was pointed towards your statement: "I don't remember anyone actually comparing the R to the SS, because the R was so much more expensive."

:)

Bob

Agree completely. My comment was pointed towards your statement: "I don't remember anyone actually comparing the R to the SS, because the R was so much more expensive."

:)

Bob

That is simple as well. If they pitted an R against an SS, the R would have whooped the SS, and people would have been left to wonder what it could have done against the Vette. Seems most publications decided to skip the middle man (being the SS), and went right for the boss himself (the Vette). The Camaro has never been the greatest offering of GM, and the 00R was for Ford, so why not put Ford's greatest offering against GM's greatest offering at the time?

Uncle. Have a good one. :)

Bob

Oh kiss my ass. Like i could really give a flying **** about your damn kid. So quit talking to me like Im your kid, i dont need another ****ing mommy, mine died 6 years ago, back when i was 20, so i dont really need the kid talk ok.

And on the fact that you dont think i have respect. I love how everyone thinks they deserve respect when the first thing out of thier mouth is an insult.

F U C K you, At least i dont go parading around like i deserve respect, you have to earn it, and earning the respect of some bitch on a forum is just about the bottom of my list on **** to do this century. So get over it.

If they want to ban me, then so be it.

LMFAO !!!!

Thank you for the laughs. :D

BTW, Junior............. I wasn't talking about you respecting me, as I could care less. However, I guess that went right over your head. Somehow, I am not surprised.

Hehe............ hit a nerve, didn't I???

Oh, for someone else who mentioned my daughter............ he isn't a daughter, he is my son........... and a little mini motorhead in the making. :D

I do get a big kick out of all the posturing and puffed up chests that are showing up in this thread. I would like to think that if Carroll Shelby was reading this, he would be getting a big ol laugh out of it. My favorite part is all of the definitive talk about the Camaro............ like any of us know how that is going to turn out. In other words............ oooohhhhh, your conjecture can beat my reality. Wow.

Egotistical loud mouth ass?.... Yet you brag your 8 year old SS "still spanks new Mustangs in every way".... though obviously not true?
How is this not true. I have auto x my SS and a new Mustang and it wasnt even close. I was 2 seconds a lap faster in my SS. I have also met Shelby and have watched plenty of interveiws with him on TV. He really thinks he is the greatest gift to cars. I used to worship this guy, but his ego was just too much.

Ever hear of the word: "Irony" bub?
I dont see it at all. Shelby is talking about something that may or may not happen. I am talking facts and my own real life experience. Try racing one of these cars bub.



So, tell me.... between Mustang and Camaro, which of the 2 was sent to the grave by the other 4 years ago, and is still in production???

Who cares? the Camaro is still a better performasnce car. Come out to an auto x or road course and find out for yourself. Do you even race?





1. That Corvette was built from the 1st bolt as a 2 seat sports car. The GT500 is a modified 4 seat passenger car. Only in the age where schools teach that everyone is a delicate unique flower will you find someone who lacks a competitive vehicle (Camaro) will someone attempt to throw a Corvette into the mix & then brag that it beats a Mustang.

2. I think anyone who disparages Caroll Shelby, and degrades what he's done in the automotive world is completely ignorant of automotive history, and pretty pathetic...... dude, grow up!

3. Made 2 bad azzed cars in his life? And exactly what have you done with your life? This is an adult conversation here amongst people who know a little bit about automotive history, and appriciate all types of cars. Many here know that GM doesn't have a lock of every great car (or automotive personalities) that have ever existed.

Can you say Series 1. I raced one the other day and it wasnt pretty. For 100k I would expect a lot better.


...

I don't remember anyone actually comparing the R to the SS, because the R was so much more expensive.



I should have qualified that because I don't remember a magazine doing it but I have read that argument many a time on different websites.

Speaking of 1/4mi ET's... Has anyone let this Evan Smith guy drive any of the newer Chevys? I do remember one mag (MM&FF) hot lapping (their term) 13.0's in the heat with a ~99 Camaro. I wonder what those mags could do with a C6 based on the C&D results. lol

If they want to ban me, so be it

http://images.corvetteforum.com/images/smilies/seeya.gif

http://images.corvetteforum.com/images/smilies/seeya.gif
Im not banned yet

:tired: This is getting old :tired:

It's interesting how GM basically gives all Fbody owners the finger in 02 yet people are still loyal.
I'm having too much fun in my 05 GTO to sit around whining about how "GM gave me the finger" ( :rolleyes: ) in 2002. Fact is, GM's been providing more performance choices than Ford since then and will likely continue to. Where's Ford's answer to the C6 Z06, Grand Prix GXP, CTS-V, Cobalt SS, Solstice GXP, and Trailblazer SS?

I'm having too much fun in my 05 GTO to sit around whining about how "GM gave me the finger" ( :rolleyes: ) in 2002. Fact is, GM's been providing more performance choices than Ford since then and will likely continue to. Where's Ford's answer to the C6 Z06, Grand Prix GXP, CTS-V, Cobalt SS, Solstice GXP, and Trailblazer SS?
YA i never really thought they "gave the finger". They did what they thought was the right thing to do.

I also think that Ford's marketing approach right now is more geared toward family sedans, and more efficient cars. They arent really pushing high power models of each car. They have the GT, and the Mustang line, and i think thier happy with that. Not to mention, they completley shut the SVT program down.

I mean look at thier recent automobiles, the FiveHundred, Fusion, Freestyle, Escape, and the new Focus redesign.I think they are trying to sell more volume cars and less speed and power cars. I mean their Truck/SUV line and thier Midsize car line have been thier bread and butter forever. And i dont think they are trying to answer GM, i think they are trying to corner the market that they know will be most profitable for them.

But that is just fine with me, i dont think i will be purchasing a Ford anytime soon, especially if GM builds the Camaro.

LMFAO !!!!

Thank you for the laughs. :D

BTW, Junior............. I wasn't talking about you respecting me, as I could care less. However, I guess that went right over your head. Somehow, I am not surprised.

Hehe............ hit a nerve, didn't I???

Oh, for someone else who mentioned my daughter............ he isn't a daughter, he is my son........... and a little mini motorhead in the making. :D

I do get a big kick out of all the posturing and puffed up chests that are showing up in this thread. I would like to think that if Carroll Shelby was reading this, he would be getting a big ol laugh out of it. My favorite part is all of the definitive talk about the Camaro............ like any of us know how that is going to turn out. In other words............ oooohhhhh, your conjecture can beat my reality. Wow.
Is the Arizona sun getting to your head. Quit calling me Junior, idiot. Im 26, how old are you like 30? 35?

And can we please stop talking like EITHER of us care. Because i sure as hell dont, im not here to talk about this, im here to talk about the Camaro.

Fact is, GM's been providing more performance choices than Ford since then and will likely continue to. Where's Ford's answer to the C6 Z06, Grand Prix GXP, CTS-V, Cobalt SS, Solstice GXP, and Trailblazer SS?

Indeed. And hopefully, GM will fill the last performance niche with the new Camaro soon. :)

I should have qualified that because I don't remember a magazine doing it but I have read that argument many a time on different websites.

I am sure it happened. Doesn't suprise me that someone wanted to compare the two, considering the heated rivalry between the Camaro and the Mustang for decades, but in this instance the comparison didn't seem all that common.

Where did my posts go?

Oh well, better to be back on topic than the endless stupid ass arguement.

Carrol Shelby couldn't build a fart in a windstorm.

Proof?

Ask around about the Shelby Series 1 sometime.

Ask around about the Shelby Series 1 sometime.

I forgot about that car. To say it was a piece of 'sheet' would be sugar-coating things.

I forgot about that car. To say it was a piece of 'sheet' would be sugar-coating things.

I worked on that car for a little while as a consultant for body fit and finish - dimensional management.

2 days in total checking out the situation.

Told 'em they were screwed and bailed.

There was LITERALLY nothing that could be done.

I worked on that car for a little while as a consultant for body fit and finish.

2 days in total checking out the situation.

Told 'em they were screwed and bailed.

There was LITERALLY nothing that could be done.
What was wrong with it?

Simple. Comparisons like that sell magazines, and draw hits to websites. The Z06 is the highest performing vehicle GM currently offers, and the GT is likewise to Ford. Pretty simple why they were compared I think.

The magazines are going to want to put the GT500 against something, and considering there is no direct competition for it on the market right now, it seems to be generally accepted to pit it against a Vette of similar price. What else would you put against it? The playing field looks pretty silent for 07, give or take a few exceptions. They could have put the GT500 against the Z06 and ignored price discrepancy, but that would likely have been ugly. Magazines aren't out to sell cars, they are out to sell issues.
Agreed.

And let's not forget - IF Ford had played their cards right a few years ago, maybe today they would have a viable direct competitor for the Corvette, with 2 seats. Then they wouldn't have to do a bunch of acrobatics to keep trying to compare the Stang to, and make it run with, the Corvette. I'm speaking of course, about the disastrous new Thunderbird. :death:

Agreed.

And let's not forget - IF Ford had played their cards right a few years ago, maybe today they would have a viable direct competitor for the Corvette, with 2 seats. Then they wouldn't have to do a bunch of acrobatics to keep trying to compare the Stang to, and make it run with, the Corvette. I'm speaking of course, about the disastrous new Thunderbird. :death:


Ahh yes... The SSR 1.0. :rolleyes:

Agreed.

And let's not forget - IF Ford had played their cards right a few years ago, maybe today they would have a viable direct competitor for the Corvette, with 2 seats. Then they wouldn't have to do a bunch of acrobatics to keep trying to compare the Stang to, and make it run with, the Corvette. I'm speaking of course, about the disastrous new Thunderbird. :death:

Actually if I were ford, Id bring the AC cobra coupe back and make it a head to head match again... They already had the concept a few years ago.

Ahh yes... The SSR 1.0.
Obviously the General has made some mistakes. I'm not an SSR fan.

But at least GM has gone out on a limb and taken some chances. What has Ford done for performance buffs lately, aside from gutting SVT, and eliminating the Taurus SHO, Focus SVT and Ford Lightning?

Agreed.

And let's not forget - IF Ford had played their cards right a few years ago, maybe today they would have a viable direct competitor for the Corvette, with 2 seats.

Corvette crushes everything anybody else tries.

There can be only one.

Obviously the General has made some mistakes. I'm not an SSR fan.

But at least GM has gone out on a limb and taken some chances. What has Ford done for performance buffs lately, aside from gutting SVT, and eliminating the Taurus SHO, Focus SVT and Ford Lightning?

What I was getting at was that I think the two have a lot incommon.

They are both attractive, niche cars. They were both priced out of their market and had performance tacked on seemingly as an afterthought.

If the thunderbird could have been got for a little under 30k, they would have sold every one. Same thing for the SSR. But people who wankt a 40k performance car will buy a vette. And people who want something wierd looking don't want to spend 40k.

http://www.digitalcorvettes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=58100 Challenge that!!

If the thunderbird could have been got for a little under 30k, they would have sold every one.
OF COURSE they eventually did 'sell every one'. That's not the point though. The design was a dead end and that was not the expectation by Ford. It could have been so much more... :(

This had the potential to be such a great thread. Too bad people have to muck it up with immaturity.

To comment on the Shelby involvement in the GT40 program. Roy Lunn was the head of Ford's British research center. They developed the GT40 mark 1 which was campaigned in 1964 with very little sucess. The next year Ford turned preparation and racing responsibilitys over to Shelby American largly due to their sucess with racing the Cobras. Those of you that know your history know that the Ford GT40 went on to win a few races after that. ;)
It should be noted that Lunn and the British team were still involved throughout the project and the first American built GT40 was raced in 1967. Other shelby facts:

He won Le Mans in 1959 in an Aston Martin
He experimented with corvettes before going to the AC bodies with Ford motors (see Corvette Italia or Scaglietti Corvette for a cool story that not many people know about)
He built the Shelby Cobra's (duh)
Involved in the GT40 program (see above)
Which sort of lead to the shelby mustangs of the 60's
Worked with Chrysler in the 80s on certain Daytonas and Shadows as well as some Shelby Dodges such as the Charger based Shelby GLHS and Shelby Dakotas
Was sort of a spiritual advisor to the Dodge Viper (which Chrysler wanted to call the cobra but ford owned the rights)
Made his own car the Shelby Series 1 which used a GM motor
Was sort of a spiritual advisor to the Ford GT which lead to the Shelby concept cars (cobra concept and GR-1) as well as the GT-H and GT500

he was inducted into the International Motorsports hall of fame in 1991
he was inducted into the Motorsports Hall of Fame of America in 1992

So yeah he's done a few things in his lifetime that deserve at least a smidgen of respect. I personally agree that his statements are good for everyone as it will serve to motivate GM and hopefully even Chrysler to get into the pony car wars ASAP and with some financial backing behind it.

I would love to here Scotts response to this but I doubt if he would lower himself to posting in this particular thread.

Has Shelby been a notable pioneer in racing and performance car design? Sure. But speaking of respect... he could and should have shown a little bit more, toward Camaro's profound and proud racing history, and the obvious success the new Camaro concept is (at least to the entire rest of the world, ASIDE from him)... by choosing a better word for it than "adequate". It really just speaks volumes about HIS arrogance. Immaturity... indeed.

LOL. Sour grapes taste good. :)

Bob

Now, isn't that strange? I post about arrogance... next thing I know, look who's responding....

LOL. Settle down, big man. Nobody is challenging your manlihood, and I don't care what you think about mine.

If I offended you with my comment about sour grapes, then I offended you with my comments about sour grapes. :shock:

Bob

Fair enough. Guess it bugged me a little, when you posted a while ago chiding someone about running a truck on their farm. I learned how to drive on a tractor... and I'm proud of it :D

Dead Thread.

Ded Thred.


it started as something with potential, now it has nothing.

lock or dispose of please.

Fair enough. Guess it bugged me a little, when you posted a while ago chiding someone about running a truck on their farm. I learned how to drive on a tractor... and I'm proud of it :D
LOL. I wasn't chiding the person for driving a tractor (there was a whole nuther point to it), hell I did it too at 14 or 15 years od. :eek:

And boy would that thing do wheelies! :bow:

Wow, what a thread :lol:

Its all good guys. I think its an understatement to say that GM, Ford and Chrysler are once again locking horns in an all out muscle car/horsepower war. All C. Shelby is saying is "bring it GM". Like Charlie said, Im hoping the Camaro team and GM have this statement all over their headquarters inspiring a truly bada$$ Camaro. And listening to our favorite Martian, I'm sure we won't be disappointed :)

I always love pointing out that while Ford/Chevy fans argue about whos better, Chysler has more performance (right now) out than either of those companies. Maybe thats why we don't see any Chrysler fans arguing. Because they're already chillin on their tropical island :cool:

Because they're already chillin on their tropical island
Not if they want an affordable muscle car coupe like the GTO or Mustang :(

Wow so apparently this thread did about just as well over here as it did over at SVT Performance under the GT-500 Section.

Not if they want an affordable muscle car coupe like the GTO or Mustang :(

yeah I saw the R/T Charger on the lot for 40k well over the GTO

Wow so apparently this thread did about just as well over here as it did over at SVT Performance under the GT-500 Section.post link:D

Wow so apparently this thread did about just as well over here as it did over at SVT Performance under the GT-500 Section.

Well is that not to be expected? I still think the old man is loosing it.

"With the new Camaro, they'd better not dream they'll have more horsepower [than Mustang],"

Ok. Nevermind the fact that the Camaros of recent memory where worlds faster than equivalent mustangs. Yes there were the Cobras but those aren't equivalent are they.

Nevermind the fact that Ford has two usbale V8s both of which are at best not industry standard. Compared to GMs LSx engines which are lighter, more powerful and fuel efficient.

It would be very easy for the Mustang to go to 600 horsepower — and north from there — and still pass the company's 50,000-mile warranty."

Ok, GMs got a N/A V8 that conservatively lays down 500, is certainly factory warranted and would probably be less out the door then there GT500.

I don't think the Camaro will come out with anything that puts us down. We are ahead of the game. And we know how to stay ahead.

Both GM and DCX have more performance cars under their belt and are creating MORE when Ford is creating a Mustang for every number in between 300 and 400.

Yeah they are ahead of the game. :rolleyes:

I probably should send this to him. Or at least have posted it before this thread got halfway to hell.

How hard is it for you to comprehend that on a performance board, people will compare two performance cars that are in the same price? Nice job singleing Camaro owners when the same comparison goes down on Mustang forums too. :rolleyes:

And yes, when those initial 112 traps came out, there were many potential GT500 buyers who said they would rather get a C6 too.

It's not exactly rocket science.

Everyone's a "Potential" buyer... even my 16 year old.

Go to "actual" buyers, do a marketing study, and you'll find that the idea of people cross shopping a C6 and a GT500 is as likely as someone cross shopping a Solstice GXP and an Impala SS (both in the same price range).

BTW:
Damn straight I'm singling out people on this forum (though I'm sure there are plenty who aren't Camaro owners).

Why?

Because while the folks at the Mustang forum have a reason to be proud that despite being a high volume run-of-the-mill chassis (for cost purposes) they have the 1st car with 500 horses & 4 seats at a relatively affordable price and a car that has been so heavily and successfully modified that it can actually keep up with and be compared to a car designed from the start as a high performance vehicle.

Meanwhile, over here, because there isn't a car we have to compare it to, a few people reach for a 2 seat sports car that's in an entirely different class, entirely different customer, and has an entirely different purpose, and dance around that totem pole as if it's the generic answer, whether it fits the question or not.

Car & Driver (the magazine most quoted when someone attempts to defend comparing a 4 passenger, mass produced Mustang with a 2 passenger, low production Corvette) is full of disclaimers like: "...we wouldn't have compared a Corvette with a Mustang in 1968..." or " By now, you know that GM no longer makes Camaros, so our ritual is in limbo....". Then there's the Motor Trend (May 2003) article that compared the Cobra to the Corvette: "...reality is that Chevy people wouldn't be caught dead driving a hopped-up Mustang and Ford enthusiasts wouldn't buy a plastic Bow-Tie if it were the last set of wheels on earth.".

Point is the Shelby GT500 is a modern muscle car. It's big (for today), it's a coupe, it's powered by a V8 that makes jaw dropping power as did muscle cars in the 1960s, it's main forte is drag racing (again like muscle cars used to), and although it's heavy like muscle cars were, it also handles extremely well on the track, impressing everyone on it's own merits (it beat Corvette on both lane changes and 50-70 acceleration, and "[i]feels more responsive at lower revs (than the Vette)"[i], and reached 0.9g in the oft quoted C&D 7/06 article). The new Road & Track wrote a glowing article.

The GT500 isn't a Corvette. Corvette is the world's best sports car (meaning 2 seats, purpose built). At the moment, the GT500 is the world's best performance coupe (meaning a version of a regular production 4 passenger vehicle). Both cars will appeal 1st and foremost to their fan base.

Ford will limit GT500s to about 10,000 per year, and will go to Mustang fans with money wanting a Mustang above the rest (and will appriciate in value and/or be a star at gatherings). 25-30,000 Corvettes annually will continue to be the reward (and toy) of people who have always wanted a 2 seat sports car in general, or a Corvette in particular, and now that the kids are grown and away, or the business has taken off, or there's enough money in the bank to live a little.

Do you guys really anticipate the GT500 to sell 10,000 units? I suppose its affordable considering SUV MSRPs and sales figures, but considering the price segment of the rest of the Mustang models is there really 10,000 fans of the very affordable Ford who can pony up over 800/mo for a Mustang?

honestly, yes, i can see ford selling 10k of the GT500's.. hell look how many mustangs there are with "roush" or "saleen" packages that people want, but can never find to buy!!! Either way, getting back to the topic, and as i've said before.. im glad Caroll said what he said, all it can do is make our cause all the more potent to the GM brass... not to mention, we'll probably see a better product for it.

-steve

Do you guys really anticipate the GT500 to sell 10,000 units? I suppose its affordable considering SUV MSRPs and sales figures, but considering the price segment of the rest of the Mustang models is there really 10,000 fans of the very affordable Ford who can pony up over 800/mo for a Mustang?



most(if not all) are already spoken for.many will not have large loans/will pay cash.

Do you guys really anticipate the GT500 to sell 10,000 units? I suppose its affordable considering SUV MSRPs and sales figures, but considering the price segment of the rest of the Mustang models is there really 10,000 fans of the very affordable Ford who can pony up over 800/mo for a Mustang?

Ford Mustang 40th anniversary gathering at Nashville Tennesee.
April 15, 2004
5,000 Mustangs.
100,000 Mustang enthusiasts who came from all over the planet.

Most every Cobra owner can tell you the person who assembled their engine.

Not only will Ford sell every GT500 it makes, they'll also have a waiting list as well. Although these cars are directed at hard core Mustang fans, they aren't directed to the guys who can barely afford a GT. "Special" Mustang buyers (ie: Cobra) tend to be older, almost all male, and pretty darn well off.

Just look at how many people are claiming they'd be willing to pay 40 grand for a 500 horse Camaro. Multiply that about 5-fold, drop the majority who are just say anything dreamers, and you still have more than enough buyers.



FWIW, I could easily see myself buying a Cobra year before last if I was in the market for a new car. However, the GT500 is a bit rich for my blood (not to mention too over the top in everything from looks to horsepower) so it's not going to be on my list.

At the same time, it's going to sell quite well without me, and I'm not the least threatened or dissappointed. My gonads are big enough that I don't feel the need to race everything with 4 wheels and an engine. :)

I'm glad I'm not the only one who's sick of listening to that old fart.

As far as i'm concerned he's a guy who put a big engine in a small car 40 years ago. There's hundreds of people in the car industry that deserve credit. The Mustang has never outperformed the Camaro. You take a 68' 428 mustang against a 396 Camaro and see what happens. And everyone knows about the last generation. Two numbers Carroll. 3,887=shelby mustang weight

505=LS6 engine horsepower, without a supercharger

As far as i'm concerned he's a guy who put a big engine in a small car 40 years ago. There's hundreds of people in the car industry that deserve credit. The Mustang has never outperformed the Camaro. You take a 68' 428 mustang against a 396 Camaro and see what happens. And everyone knows about the last generation. Two numbers Carroll. 3,887=shelby mustang weight

505=LS6 engine horsepower, without a supercharger



considering the 4cyl HHR weighs 3200lbs,I can't wait to hear your remarks about the new camaro's weight when that comes in.Face it,newer cars are heavier for varying reasons.

Yeah, i've heard. Considering the "Shelby" weighs 300 pounds more than their GT, they need some help. New cars don't need to weigh 4,000 pounds. Hey the Corvette weighs 200 pounds less than it did 20 years ago.
I wasn't feeling so antagonistic towards the mustang till i read those remarks.