Article: Why the New Camaro will Fail

Hopefully not a repost, but I thought that I would share what the non-automotive folks are saying about the new Camaro.

LINK (http://www.opinionjournal.com/federation/feature/?id=110008543)

They make a few good points, here's hoping that they are wrong.

A 15 mpg V-8 muscle car in a world of $70 fill-ups is apt to be about as popular as Hummers and Navigators and Excursions--sheetmetal Brontosauri that face extinction (or at least, massive discounting just to get them off dealers' lots).


:lol: If the new Camaro only averages 15 mpg then yes, there will be something of a problem. However, considering what the LS1's were getting there is a snowballs chance of that happening.

Yeah, they have a few of their facts off, but they are speaking for the masses of people who will not bother to learn more about the car for whom perception is reality. People see V8, and they think 15 mpg. Hell, my pig of a crew cab GMC gets 18. This does however emphasize something that GM must consider in the marketing.

Sh!t, my 99 LS1 Trans Am gets 25mph on the highway DOING 80MPH! Imagine what I could get cruising at 55 (which is what is done to get posted mpg ratings).
Check this, a 06 Corvette with 400 horse power gets 28mpg, while a little sh!tbox 4 cylinder gets 30mph with a 3rd of the horse power. These people just aren't doing thier homework.

at the unvieling thye said an estimated 35mpg, while the vette witht he same driveline now is getting 28mpg. but the new f-body will have the DOD to help bump hwy mpg to the 35, they hope.

Last line of the article, referencing the author:

"Mr. Peters is an automotive columnist and author of 'Automotive Atrocities: Cars We Love to Hate' (MBI)."

Hmmm, gee, an axe to grind maybe? Sounds like a certified Camry hybrid-driving hippie to me.

Last line of the article, referencing the author:

"Mr. Peters is an automotive columnist and author of 'Automotive Atrocities: Cars We Love to Hate' (MBI)."

Hmmm, gee, an axe to grind maybe? Sounds like a certified Camry hybrid-driving hippie to me.

Not exactly, he actually owns a second gen...

brief bio (http://www.motorists.com/ericpeters/index.html)

They posted my rebuttal on the reader's email page: http://www.spectator.org/dsp_readermail.asp

Yeah, they have a few of their facts off, but they are speaking for the masses of people who will not bother to learn more about the car for whom perception is reality.

Perception is reality for everyone. If you investigate into something you may find something that changes your perception and that becomes your reality. Its not just a slogan for the ignorant which Im sure is what you meant.

Great reply Chris. I think that people get very carried away with trying to draw analogies to past events even in the face of the unique circumstances that the current situation presents.

Perception is reality for everyone. If you investigate into something you may find something that changes your perception and that becomes your reality. Its not just a slogan for the ignorant which Im sure is what you meant.

I just meant to emphasize that it is incumbent upon GM to shape perceptions beyond automotive enthusiasts that will take it upon themselves to learn more.

They posted my rebuttal on the reader's email page: http://www.spectator.org/dsp_readermail.asp
Good rebuttal. Unfortunately, it looks like there is no obvious way to get from the article to the page showing your response.

He has some valid points, but come on..."The previous generation (1994-2002) Camaro was an "in your face" kind of car". At least know the model years before you go bashing the car. :no:

I won't be surprised if the Camaro averages about 15 mpg in the city, that's what my GTO is averaging, and the drivetrain/weight will be similar. Hower, I'm sure the highway MPG will be closer to 30.

I disagree with everything this idiot wrote accept for two things. One is that the Mustang has a critical multi year head start. I think GM dropped the ball with timing and should have put it's SSR resources into a 5th gen Camaro instead of letting Ford have the whole pony car market to it's self. It's frustrating to see so much coverage of the Mustang (on different TV shows), I can't stop thinking how GM is hurting the Camaro as more time slips by.
The second thing I agree with is pricing the new Camaro, it has to be affordable and not just the V6 version.

Chris's rebuttal kind of sums it all up.

I'm sick of all the negative articles and press (can you say motor trend)...just the fact that the article didn't really touch on how well recieved the concept has been shows the authors true colors. I hope it comes out and kills the 'stang in sales (not to mention performance).

Now just build it already...I'm tired of waiting.

The word on the last Camaro was that it's sales were low because it was more of an enthusiasts car. Good for enthusiasts, bad for sales.
Do you think the new Camaro is following in the footsteps of the fourth gen. in that regard?
His comment about 40+ year olds is funny, since they are the group who can most afford something like this and maybe not care as much about fuel economy, since it may not be their primary transportation.

Sounds like hes a ford fan to me. he says the camaro is in your face and too aggressive. i would have to disagree. the fourth gen didnt even have a whole lot of characteristic lines on it. its plain really, pointly like an arrow. and for god sakes, the mustang looks the same in alot of regards. as im typing this i can see an older model v6 mustang driving by. a dime a million around here, god they are cheap and ugly.

anyway, there were too many generalizations. i didnt see one bit of fact in that article. the fuel economy numbers were all wrong. so in other words, the camaro owns the mustang, no matter what year you are in, 2007 or 2197. mustang always gets out-performed by the camaro. and chris is right, old men dont by camaro's. they buy vettes. thats their price range and prestige. camaros are for younger guys and gals and older enthusiasts.

Im done.

When I 1st read this thread & began to read the actual article, I was prepared for another know-nothing basher of high performance cars, especially a basher against GM, and with that in mind, I began to read his article.

A funny thing happened.

Most of what he wrote was dead on what I've been saying for years. :shock:

Sure, he misses a few issues (although the 4rd gen came out late, and was relatively low production that year, it still was a '93 model, and GTO was hardly a failure... at worse, it was luke warm in sales), but his overall outlook, and points are dead on.


First, Mustang (unlike what alot of people here seem to forget about with Camaro) still appeals to everyone from young women to old men. Read alot of the post from our large neanderthal population here. All they want is an engine in a box, or a sophistocated Corvette level 4 passenger lightweight, and still are mentally forever stuck in that "Mustang are for women" cluelessness.

Second, price DID hamper the GTO. At 32-large-plus-markup, GTOs sat on the lots. Discounted to 28 with rebates, and the metal moved... pretty furiously. Now with no rebates, no markups, and settled in around 30 grand, GTOs seem to have reached their equilibrium.



I think the new Camaro is going to be a success, so I disagree with his final conclusion. I think Camaro's agressive looks wear well, as opposed to the 4th gen which looked like a large doorstop, and was impractical (before you parade facts and figures showing it wasn't, keep in mind people go by their impressions, not a bunch of facts and figures.... car buying in this segment is purely emotional).

There's going to be people who will make a kneejerk generalization about the author. The gorillas here are going to feel the need to beat their chest & call the guy names and question his parentage. But as I've been saying for some time:

1. The Camaro has to appeal across ALL age, gender, and socioeconomic lines.

2. Enthusiasts ruined the 4th gen, and proved that enthusiast alone CAN NOT support a performance coupe with emphasis on performance items that the average Joe or Jane don't care about while ignoring what they really DO want in a car.

3. The Camaro ISN'T a vehicle that MUST cater to every whim of weighing a specific weight, having a specific engine, and most certainly, definately, sure as the sun sets, can NOT cost in the 30 thousand dollar range, no matter how many of you guys are willing to pay that much for an SS or Z28!!!

The guy is a performance enthuisiast, not some hybrid tailpipe sucker.

I've owned three 4th gen Camaros.

Camaro MUST appeal to a wide audience.

That's something that's not going to be done worrying about it weighing 30-something hundred pounds, or saying it must have a $18,000 engine, or ridiculing something else as a "girls car". :lol:

well said guy.I also think the 5th gen will sell well.For the same reason mustang sells.It has a trunk,sit up seats and looks like it will have some head room.Its also a VERY good looking design.With a good mpg/yet powerful enough V6,and feeling of quality it will appeal to a broad spectrum.There will be hot models for the rest of us to drool over.

I know I sure would love to see the new Camaro succeed, and I have a lot of faith that it will. I may not be able to buy one right off the rip, but I DO plan on owning one somehow some way.
I am a Camaro enthusiast, but not in the racing sense...I just love the Camaro for it's styling and for it's history. (Not to mention that it's a Chevy) I've got two 4th gens already and would LOVE to add a 5th gen to my collection.
I'm not going to bicker back and forth over what rear end it should have or what engine it will have. As long as it's powerful enough to propel me down the highway on-ramp and put a grin on my face in the process (much like my stock Z-28 does now) I will be a very happy man.
Scott, I promise that if this car is made, I will buy one!

I like reading opposing views on certain topics. A well thought out argument will make me pause and think...even if I disagree.

This guy however, does not move my opinion needle one iota. When you peel away all of his fancy adjectives - what I think he says is, that the Camaro will fail because the Camaro Concept has bolder styling than the Mustang production car. Also, he feels women will not...nor have ever...liked Camaros to the same extent that they liked Mustangs. He also speculates it will die if it gets 15 mpg on a $70 fill-up.

:blah: :tired:

My response to Mr. obstreperous, (I had to look that word up ;) ) :

- Without bold styling, why even bother having a Camaro?

- Except for maybe the 4th gen, my personal observation is that women liked previous gen Camaros just fine. They used buy 'em too, by the truckload.

- Linking the fate of the 5th gen Camaro to the reasons that made the GTO a sales underperformer, is so oversimplistic and off target, that it would require it's very own thread to do a rebuttal justice.

Why the Camaro will succeed: Because GM guys resent the Mustang getting all the glory.

2) Because even non car people are excited about the rebirth of the names Shelby, Charger, Hemi, and Camaro. GM just needs to successfully market the quality the Camaro has to have. Decent gas mileage, mustang killing power, and some refinements over the plasticy cheap 'mullet' camaro.

Why the Camaro will succeed: Because GM guys resent the Mustang getting all the glory.

2) Because even non car people are excited about the rebirth of the names Shelby, Charger, Hemi, and Camaro. GM just needs to successfully market the quality the Camaro has to have. Decent gas mileage, mustang killing power, and some refinements over the plasticy cheap 'mullet' camaro.


why resent the mustang?Its the reason why your getting a 5th gen.Mustang killing power??why not nissan or subaru or porshe killing power???Maybe we should rejoice in AMERICAN muscle and stop the stupid GM is better than Ford and vice versa crap.

I would be willing to bet that if you took a poll and the concept were to be sitting on lots right now, Would women consider at least the V6 model 5th gen Camaro. Especially a DOD V6. That is to say the Camaro EQUIVELENT % wise of women mustang buyer to overall Mustang buyers. The answer would be yes. But ultimately remember it is a sports car in by nature guys are just more into period. At the same time as a guy we dont go get 50 pairs of shoes, thats just the way it is. Stop it with the PC crap your killin me!

If such an accurate poll were possible as the car has addressed all the everyday usability issues of its predecessors and that were pointed out to women looking at the car and they got the cool styling, Id bet you they would be interested in one trim or another. Im tired of different sources claiming women wouldnt buy a Camaro because they read it somewhere....

Given fuel prices have fluctuated over the years, it's not inconceivable that fuel prices might again fall, despite what experts say. Given that Comaro is not due until 2009, it might be a blessing that GM will launch it then instead of now.

There will always be a need for V8s IMHO and GM make the most fuel efficient V8s in the world... it's just that fluctuating fuel prices will have a variable impact on V8 demand.

Women will buy Camaro (in numbers) if they perceive it to be easy to live with day-to-day. IE....interior ergonomics.

That, of course, is the opinion of a knuckle-dragging-want-it-to-be-stupid-light-and-not-a-lot-of-fluff-performance-enthusiats. :D

GM still has to overcome the negative stigma surrounding these cars that they are owned by rednecks with mullets.

My sister is in the market for a car right now but is not looking at the Camaro because around here all the Camaro owners are rednecks.

My sister is in the market for a car right now but is not looking at the Camaro because around here all the Camaro owners are rednecks.

They have "rednecks" in Manitoba??? :confused:

Women will buy Camaro (in numbers) if they perceive it to be easy to live with day-to-day. IE....interior ergonomics.

That, of course, is the opinion of a knuckle-dragging-want-it-to-be-stupid-light-and-not-a-lot-of-fluff-performance-enthusiats. :D

If by in numbers you mean relative to the Mustang, I agree:)

What a dumbass:rolleyes:

Well I pretty much agree with everything already posted and have heard it all before, so I have nothing to add... :)

Nice letter Chris.....

I would be willing to bet that if you took a poll and the concept were to be sitting on lots right now, Would women consider at least the V6 model 5th gen Camaro. Especially a DOD V6. That is to say the Camaro EQUIVELENT % wise of women mustang buyer to overall Mustang buyers. The answer would be yes. But ultimately remember it is a sports car in by nature guys are just more into period. At the same time as a guy we dont go get 50 pairs of shoes, thats just the way it is. Stop it with the PC crap your killin me!

If such an accurate poll were possible as the car has addressed all the everyday usability issues of its predecessors and that were pointed out to women looking at the car and they got the cool styling, Id bet you they would be interested in one trim or another. Im tired of different sources claiming women wouldnt buy a Camaro because they read it somewhere....

Lets put it this way.... upon seeing the video I shot of the unveiling, both my sister(30 something) and my mom as well as my dad who went with me (both aged in the upper 60s) ALL really like the car, and would buy it if they had a chance.

That isn't the case with the 4th gen, so the 5th gen's on the right track. Only my sister wanted one enough to buy one (after I got mine).

Then again, she's unusual. Last year she came within a whisker of buying a Charger R/T with the Road & Track package. :lol:

Given fuel prices have fluctuated over the years, it's not inconceivable that fuel prices might again fall, despite what experts say. Given that Comaro is not due until 2009, it might be a blessing that GM will launch it then instead of now.


As Branden pointed out in another thread, there are times where fuel crisis actually sparked intrest in performance cars.

70s era Trans Ams whose sales exploded every year starting in 1973.... the year of the Arab oil embargo? Or the early 80s where Chrysler stuck turbos in everything with wheels (including minivans!) and what Ford had that V8s and dual exhaust wouldn't fit in got turbos as well?

Fuel prices will get the middle class out of big SUVs, but seems we still get performance cars (especially coupes) when fuel prices go up. :)

After dealing with Camaro drivers for years, my wife has only one question: were Camaro owners issued their "A****** Cards" before or after they bought the car?
-- Michael Wm. Dooley
Indianapolis, Indiana

Although im a younger street racer so my perspective would be different... its always been my observation that the average Mustang guy was the tool full of himself and his car... Street racers are a-holes though.... :p

Although im a younger street racer so my perspective would be different... its always been my observation that the average Mustang guy was the tool full of himself and his car... Street racers are a-holes though.... :p

Of the people I've known (and observed driving) I've always seen the Mustang owners as the ones who acted more like a-holes.

Not that an occasional jerk can't have a Camaro, I just believe it's the opposite of the previous posters wifes experience... (In my own experiences anyway.)

Before you classify Mr. Peters as an anti-car guy, I suggest you visit the "Contributors" tab on the sectator.org web site and follow the "Eric Peters" link

http://www.spectator.org/dsp_author.asp?author_id=84

When you "view articles" you will see a litany of prose that is very pro-car, which I found quite interesting to read. The guy may be saying what we Camaro-folks don't want to hear, but his points are worth pondering.

Someone needs to bookmark this article. Let's revisit it in 5 years. Until then, I'm nominating him for Player Hater of the Year. Hate hate hate hate hate!

That isn't the case with the 4th gen, so the 5th gen's on the right track. Only my sister wanted one enough to buy one (after I got mine).


My girlfriend also thought the exterior of the concept was stunning and she hates my thirdgen, so go figure. Both of us are pretty luke-warm on the interior though, so hopefully that changes for the better.

I don't think anyone can really dispute that he's a car guy (at least casually), but as for pondering his points......well, he's got his facts SO wrong it's hard to ponder any of it. The things he says will bury the Camaro are things that the Mustang has as well - but in his perspective the Mustang is untouchable, and he can't back up his perspective.

And I don't think it's because we are all Camaro supporters that we feel this way. We're all REALLY critical of the new Camaro because we want it to succeed - but the fact is we're REALLY critical of it. You've got folks on this board saying they won't buy one because of the width, or because it BETTER have ______. Is it really reasonable to think that a group with that much passion isn't going to take a long, hard, realistic look at the prospects of the car failing???

After dealing with Camaro drivers for years, my wife has only one question: were Camaro owners issued their "A****** Cards" before or after they bought the car?
-- Michael Wm. Dooley
Indianapolis, Indiana

People who make comments like this are usually the ones doing 60mph in the fast lane with their blinker on. And they're the safest drivers on the road (just ask them, they'll tell you so).

I don't think anyone can really dispute that he's a car guy (at least casually), but as for pondering his points......well, he's got his facts SO wrong it's hard to ponder any of it. The things he says will bury the Camaro are things that the Mustang has as well - but in his perspective the Mustang is untouchable, and he can't back up his perspective.

And I don't think it's because we are all Camaro supporters that we feel this way. We're all REALLY critical of the new Camaro because we want it to succeed - but the fact is we're REALLY critical of it. You've got folks on this board saying they won't buy one because of the width, or because it BETTER have ______. Is it really reasonable to think that a group with that much passion isn't going to take a long, hard, realistic look at the prospects of the car failing???

I think that small group is as capable of the new Camaro failing just as the true enthusiest was capable of keeping the 4th gen alive. In fact id like to think there are more hard-number gearheads that will buy the car than those who actually would not because of "X reason." (hope that made sense :p)

But in the end its simple to me... It needs to be affordable to the mainstrem, "feel fun to drive," and look unique. Just like the Mustang is..

As long as the price is consistent, Chevy's got it pegged. :)

A 15 mpg V-8 muscle car in a world of $70 fill-ups is apt to be about as popular as Hummers and Navigators and Excursions--sheetmetal Brontosauri that face extinction (or at least, massive discounting just to get them off dealers' lots).


:lol: If the new Camaro only averages 15 mpg then yes, there will be something of a problem. However, considering what the LS1's were getting there is a snowballs chance of that happening.

dont' worry about MPG...my Lingenfelter built 427 puts out 550 HP and gets 17 MPG highway :eek:

I'm sure GM will give us something that performs as well as getting good MPG...

Eeeeck! 17 mpg? Ouch.

All of those are valid CONCERNS.


But not ONE nor the SUM will be damning for this car with the way GM is supporting it.

Gas mileage is a non-issue, for dozens of reasons.

Price is an issue, but not an insurmountable one. The GTO comparison is completely faulty...

If practicality was as big of an issue as he makes it out to be then cars like this wouldn't be produced, instead of every auto maker having one.

The writer of that article seems hopelessly uninformed. We are all aware that the V6 Camaro will have to be a hit if the car is to survive. And in a world where BMWs, Lexus 350s and J35s are very popular quite apart from the Mustang it has become clear that there is a very large market for sport coups.

Furthermore the newer engine technologies that will be incorporated into Camaro will make it on par with some of the best MPG 6cyl and 8cyl cars in the industry - it likely will outperform many 4 cyl. cars.

It is not just Camaro's sales that matter either. It is the profile it gives GM with the new generation youth. This will be their car. Camaro will beckon them and tell them to embrace their youth and all that is good about it.

Everyone has owned or knew someone who owned a Camaro. And, everyone should own a Camaro at least once. If you never owned one you're missing out.

I'm sorry if this article has already been posted, and that's one reason I didn't start a new thread for it. Plus it's not that big. But it seems to be a bit of a hater write-up, as well, although some of it may just be tongue-in-cheek humor.

http://www.cars.com/go/features/autoshows/vehicle.jsp?autoshow=&vehicletype=concept&autoshowyear=2006&vehicle=concept_chevrolet_camaro