Why does the Northstar exist?

The older Northstar in the FWD cars is more or less matched by the V6 and I6 engines of GM and the competition.

The newer VVT Northstar in the STS is matched by the 5.3l V8 in the new Tahoe. The 5.3 beats the Northstar in torque, and I'm sure it would beat it in fuel economy with the DOD feature. It also runs regular versus premium. Then there are the various 6.0 and 6.2 variations that compete well against the latest Japanese and Euro V8s (new Lexus 4.6 and MB5.5 come to mind). Meanwhile, the Northstar, which is supposed to be the premium engine, falls further and further behind.

I know that GM has stated that people who buy luxury cars count valves and camshafts, but I think they'll also count HP and torque.

A premium STS model with the 6.2l V8 from the Escalade would be such a cool car and would match up very well against the forthcoming E550 and GS460 as well as the current 550i, being 10-40hp ahead instead of 40-70 behind.

How expensive is it to have two completely different V8 engine families? Does anyone else? Oh yes, Ford. Is it a coincidence that the Jaguar V8 and Ford Triton V8s are both at the bottom of their classes, stuck at 300hp in NA form while the competition pushes the high 300s?

If people really insist on 4 valves and DOHC, then what about developing a set of 4-valve DOHC heads for the LS engines? Of course, the engine would then be bigger and maybe not much more powerful.

I think GM was more afraid back in the day of a luxury car without multiple camshafts being taken seriously, and didn't want to risk any backlash. Honestly, I think the Northstar has run its course, and GM could get away with many of it's pushrod v8s in their luxury vehicles. It would be cheaper to rid themselves of the Northstar line, and just concentrate on making its pushrod engines run smoother for the luxury cars.

GM still seems to spend too much of it's time often in trying to make their cars just like everyone elses. Nothing says American like a pushrod v8, and today's OHV engines could be very competitive with a luxury competitors engine, especially with the money saved from the Northstar line. Someone who disdains a car just for the fact that it's engine uses pushrods is not likely to be buying a Cadillac in the first place.

If people really insist on 4 valves and DOHC, then what about developing a set of 4-valve DOHC heads for the LS engines? Of course, the engine would then be bigger and maybe not much more powerful.
This would be MUCH larger than the compact OHV LSx engines, even larger than the current 4.6 N*. Think LT5 territory on size, nothing short of HD trucks would hold it.

There would be a backlash. If not immediatley with consumers, definately with the auto press. Also, besides the valve and camshaft count, it prevents the premium Cadilliac line from having all the same engines as the "budget" Chevrolets. It's viewed as a premium engine for a premium brand.

There would be a backlash. If not immediatley with consumers, definately with the auto press. Also, besides the valve and camshaft count, it prevents the premium Cadilliac line from having all the same engines as the "budget" Chevrolets. It's viewed as a premium engine for a premium brand.

If the vehicles were good, the auto press would eventually turn to love it. I don't believe the auto press how it out specifically for GM, as many on here seem to, and if GM could turn out an awesome vehicle, with a smooth engine, it wouldn't matter how many camshafts it has. GM could also change the engines in some way to give them a new moniker, and differentiate them from the Chevies. Maybe a slightly different displacement or something? Obviously the Caddy engines would also have more of an attention to balance while being built.

If the vehicles were good, the auto press would eventually turn to love it. I don't believe the auto press how it out specifically for GM, as many on here seem to, and if GM could turn out an awesome vehicle, with a smooth engine, it wouldn't matter how many camshafts it has. GM could also change the engines in some way to give them a new moniker, and differentiate them from the Chevies. Maybe a slightly different displacement or something? Obviously the Caddy engines would also have more of an attention to balance while being built.

Right. That "Crappy, old dinosaur" pushrod V8 doesn't seem to have harmed the Escalade's sales (correct me if I am wrong - but that's an LSx right?). Though I suppose the "dub & bling / get out of my way or I'll drive over you" Canyonaro :) crowd is a little different from your average luxo car buyer.

NothStar is heavier, more complicated, more expensive to produce, less fuel efficient and less powerful than the LS2. GM should nix the NorthStar, use the proven LSx engines and spend that money on improving the other aspects of Caddy's line-up.

It's simple. The Northstar has the smoothness and refinement that luxury buyers expect in a luxury brand. Not that the small blocks aren't smooth or refined, but GM would be quite foolish to go back to SBC's in their "standard of the world" brand.

Sure, the Northstar could use some more power, and I'm sure it will get it, eventually. Those motors are by no means "maxed out".

how sensitive are they to mods?

Yes I agree with Z28wilson, my Deville's Northstar is still smoother and more quiet running then any pushrod gm moter, and that is what count in a brand like this, not all out power, and 300hp is still enough to most people eyes.

how sensitive are they to mods?

Find me a significant group of STS and DTS owners who are modifying their engines. :shrug:

Yes I agree with Z28wilson, my Deville's Northstar is still smoother and more quiet running then any pushrod gm moter, and that is what count in a brand like this, not all out power, and 300hp is still enough to most people eyes.

So could a different assembly line with tighter tolerances or whatever produce an LS2 variant that's as smooth as the Northstar? I don't see why not. You might sacrifice a bit of power, but you could lose a lot and still be ahead of the Northstar.

uuhhm....you can advance the stock cams on a northstar and pump out 440tq ......also ....the stock northstar rods are the same rods they use in the caddie racing engines...its a great engine...they run smooth...and the love the **** of of n2o...I know this because I had a ETC with the dope on it..not bad for a mid 12 second boat

I personally love northstars. both my father's and mother's eldorado ETC's northstars are great engines. so smoooooth. they will get up and move too. plus they sound awesome un-muffled.

uuhhm....you can advance the stock cams on a northstar and pump out 440tq ......also ....the stock northstar rods are the same rods they use in the caddie racing engines...its a great engine...they run smooth...and the love the **** of of n2o...I know this because I had a ETC with the dope on it..not bad for a mid 12 second boat
thats cool, do you have any more info on your northstar? 440 tq out of a 4.6L engine? did you mean 340 tq?

A pushrod powered luxury car would be laughed off the map by 90% of luxury car buyers, regardless of the HP numbers, regardless of the technical arguments you can make for it.

A pushrod powered luxury car would be laughed off the map by 90% of luxury car buyers, regardless of the HP numbers, regardless of the technical arguments you can make for it.bingo. that's why it still around.

A pushrod powered luxury car would be laughed off the map by 90% of luxury car buyers, regardless of the HP numbers, regardless of the technical arguments you can make for it.
Just like the CTS-V, huh?

how sensitive are they to mods?

Browse around Cadillac Hotrod Fabricators website for a couple minutes...
http://www.chrfab.com/projects.htm
http://www.chrfab.com/Engines.htm

The engines have a lot of potential, they are just highly restricted from the factory.

They've also been used in IRL cars.

Just like the CTS-V, huh?

I figured somebody would throw that one out there, but I don't see this car as any different. To the relatively small portion of the population (mostly domestic owners, if I might add) that are willing to listen and hear arguments in favor of pushrod V8's the car might do just fine. But the perception of most luxury car buyers (accurate or not) is that a pushrod engine is not premium or luxury, no matter how fast it goes.

FWIW, I see zillions of M3's and AMG's around here, but I almost never see a CTS-V.

I figured somebody would throw that one out there, but I don't see this car as any different. To the relatively small portion of the population (mostly domestic owners, if I might add) that are willing to listen and hear arguments in favor of pushrod V8's the car might do just fine. But the perception of most luxury car buyers (accurate or not) is that a pushrod engine is not premium or luxury, no matter how fast it goes.


I know that's the argument. I just don't think it's worth developing two separate engine ranges, especially when the "volume" engine range is objectively better than the "luxury" range, except maybe for operating smoothness. A lot of people with these perceptions won't buy a Cadillac anyway, because they don't perceive Cadillacs as sporty luxury cars.

Cadillac is fighting an uphill battle against perceptions anyway. How much more will it hurt to have a pushrod engine that performs as well as the GenIV V8s do? I think it actually hurts less than it does to have a DOHC 32 valve engine that is an also-ran at best.

A smoother running version of the LS2 at 375hp in the STS would be so much better than the 320hp Northstar that it should change perceptions. And it would be in much better shape to take on the likes of the 360hp 550i, approx 380hp GS460, and the 382hp E550.

If GM is committed to the dual ranges, then they have a lot of work to do on the Northstar to catch up. I'm sure it's in progress, but it looks like it's going to be late. And expensive.

The current N* engine is not out of date by no means, its a very mature platform, and there a lot left in it, It may seem a also-ran because only in the last few years has it's main rivals have just caught up to it really, imagine in 93 when it came out, no main stream engine come close the N* in power, all it needs now is direct injection tech "which i heard that they are working on" to get it back into the game.

Why would anyone take the Northstar engines out of the Caddilacs? Is Caddilac the struggling brand? I don't think so. They are the one brand that is having some success. Also, the CTS-V accounts for how many of the CTS sales and what motor is the main motor used in the CTS? A OHC V6.

Outside of the Escalade and CTS-V, all of the others have some kind of OHC motor. How many people would go spend a 100k on a XLR-V or almost 80k for a STS-V if it had a LSx motor in it? The motors that are in the Caddilacs are not about power, they are about exclusiveness.

If its not broke, don't try to fix it.

I know that's the argument. I just don't think it's worth developing two separate engine ranges, especially when the "volume" engine range is objectively better than the "luxury" range, except maybe for operating smoothness. A lot of people with these perceptions won't buy a Cadillac anyway, because they don't perceive Cadillacs as sporty luxury cars.

Cadillac is fighting an uphill battle against perceptions anyway. How much more will it hurt to have a pushrod engine that performs as well as the GenIV V8s do? I think it actually hurts less than it does to have a DOHC 32 valve engine that is an also-ran at best.


It makes some sense on paper but their has to be brand diffrentiation.

They would save even more money if they used the same interior in the Silverado as they do in the DTS... Oh wait they tried that... :rolleyes:

I know that's the argument. I just don't think it's worth developing two separate engine ranges, especially when the "volume" engine range is objectively better than the "luxury" range, except maybe for operating smoothness. A lot of people with these perceptions won't buy a Cadillac anyway, because they don't perceive Cadillacs as sporty luxury cars.


Exactly. I don't know where this 90% of luxury owners would laugh at it crap is coming from. Most luxury car owners don't seem to know as much about their engines as you would expect them to when they are dishing out the kind of money some of those cars cost.


A smoother running version of the LS2 at 375hp in the STS would be so much better than the 320hp Northstar that it should change perceptions. And it would be in much better shape to take on the likes of the 360hp 550i, approx 380hp GS460, and the 382hp E550.

If no one else, I am with you on this. The Northstar has grown to be less necessary over the years, and I think GM could do great things with the pushrod motors if they dissolved the budget of the Northstar engines into them.

I haven't driven one, so I can't comment on power and refinement. They do seem to have a reputation for being hard to work on. Not that a luxury car owner would care about that though.

I think GM have little choice but to have an engine of 'import quality and appeal'. They need an engine that is smooth and refined that only the diehard technophiles can relate to - you know, the people who wouldn't dare buy OHV, no matter how superior the GM smallblock is in comparison.

Exactly. I don't know where this 90% of luxury owners would laugh at it crap is coming from. Most luxury car owners don't seem to know as much about their engines as you would expect them to when they are dishing out the kind of money some of those cars cost.

Right. If they knew a lot about engines, they *Might* be willing to listen to technical arguements in support of a pushrod engine, but they typically don't know that much. It's the price of entry to be a real luxury car. Just like RWD or AWD is the price of entry to being a real sports car. Personal opinions don't matter that much...it's what the market thinks.

Exactly. I don't know where this 90% of luxury owners would laugh at it crap is coming from. Most luxury car owners don't seem to know as much about their engines as you would expect them to when they are dishing out the kind of money some of those cars cost.

Your kidding right , hahaha . How well do you think the new M5 woulda went over if it had a pushrod V10 ? Not our perception , but in the eyes of the luxury enthusist . Alot of those people are just as much into their cars as we are , just at a different level . The Tire Rack is 10 minutes from my house , and almost every weekend theirs some type of event going on , while you may see a few hundred BMW's , Mercedes , Audi's ect ect mixing it up on the short track .....you dont hardly ever see a Caddy out there .

The CTS-V has a massive appeal to the hot rod community and cadillac faithful , but it did little to pull people out of their Imports .

I'd like to see the Northstar engines get smaller and go the way of Solenoid operated Intake/Exhaust valves. Now that would be trick!

Probably a long ways off and expensive. But if they could be the first ones to use direct injection, and no valvetrain (basically). Completely computer programmed which could allow a "Performance Mode", "Economy Mode", with the push of a button... "drools..."

Although, if they did I probably couldn't afford it... heh

If no one else, I am with you on this. The Northstar has grown to be less necessary over the years, and I think GM could do great things with the pushrod motors if they dissolved the budget of the Northstar engines into them.

They already are doing great things with the LSx line....:shrug:

Again, Cadillac has become a real renaissance brand. Would you, as a GM product planner, want to risk flushing that all down the toilet when the automotive press rakes you over the coals for going back to what is perceived to be a common-man's engine? Let Cadillac be known as GM's turn-around luxury brand that GM now decides to cheap-out on? :no:

Right. If they knew a lot about engines, they *Might* be willing to listen to technical arguements in support of a pushrod engine, but they typically don't know that much. It's the price of entry to be a real luxury car. Just like RWD or AWD is the price of entry to being a real sports car. Personal opinions don't matter that much...it's what the market thinks.

Thats not exactly how I meant it. One of my bosses drives a 528i. If I go up and ask her if that engine is DOHC she is going to give me a dumbfounded stare. Most people aren't buying a BMW because they run DOHC engines, they are buying a BMW because it is a BMW, and this seems to hold true with a lot of the 3 series owners I have met.

Your kidding right , hahaha . How well do you think the new M5 woulda went over if it had a pushrod V10 ? Not our perception , but in the eyes of the luxury enthusist . Alot of those people are just as much into their cars as we are , just at a different level . The Tire Rack is 10 minutes from my house , and almost every weekend theirs some type of event going on , while you may see a few hundred BMW's , Mercedes , Audi's ect ect mixing it up on the short track .....you dont hardly ever see a Caddy out there .

The CTS-V has a massive appeal to the hot rod community and cadillac faithful , but it did little to pull people out of their Imports .

How many M5s do they sell? It hardly constitutes a huge chunk out of BMWs sales. The M5 is going to get more skepticism for the motor it has; it is a flagship car, and BMWs top performance sedan.

Many of you guys on here would often jump down someones throat if you labeled the Camaro as strictly an ethusiast car, and yet many of you are trying to it up like the German luxury machines are the sole realm of enthusiasts. Most Audi, BMW, and Mercedes owners I have talked to or known are not enthusiasts, and don't know much about their engines, except for maybe the amount of cylinders it has. I would bet most of them don't even know what a pushrod is.

My point is, if GM could dump the money from the Northstar engines into refining a pushrod engine that could match the German engines in NHV, then eventually people who might put a stigma on it would start to look past it after enough time. Cadillac used the be the exclusive domain of the old man driver, but after enough time of building convincing performance sedans, their image has turned around on them. Stigmas can dissolve.

Thats not exactly how I meant it. One of my bosses drives a 528i. If I go up and ask her if that engine is DOHC she is going to give me a dumbfounded stare. Most people aren't buying a BMW because they run DOHC engines, they are buying a BMW because it is a BMW, and this seems to hold true with a lot of the 3 series owners I have met.


But she knows how smooth her engine is though

I own one each of the GM V8's (baby Northstar DOHC in my '98 Aurora, LS1 in my '04 GTO). They are appropriate powertrains for the vehicles that they are in - the smooth, humming symmetry of the Northstar in the luxury-oriented Aurora, and the shaking, growling beast of the LS1 in the GTO). Each would seem out-of-place in the other vehicle, if you swapped them. Not much in terms of performance modifications for the Northstar besides CAI/hollowing out the airbox (it's constricted for noise-suppression reasons - not so much on my Aurora anymore :-)

The LS1 is a packaging dream, the Northstar a packaging nightmare, but they each have their place. GM has been focusing moreso on the LSx side of late, while most of the DOHC work has been on the HF3.6 and 2.8 motors (with a detour to a blown Northstar for the V-Series caddies). Development dollars have shifted to the "UltraV8" line which will eventually replace the Northstars... bear in mind the Northstar came out in the early 90's, while the LSx series powerplants followed 4-5 years later. So, of course the LSx series will seem be more powerful... wait for the new Ultra powerplants and we'll review this situation again.

What does 2 cams and 32 valves have to do with NVH? I would think the block structure, accessory attatchement and overall balance of the engine (via firing order, crank design, power produced per cylinder, etc) would have a much greater effect than the number of valves and cams an engine had. My own opinion is that DOHC 32v V8 sounds more refined and advanced than OHV 16v V8.

But she knows how smooth her engine is though

And why couldn't an LS engine be as smooth???? Everybody keeps spouting that off for the reason of the Northstar's existence, but I don't understand why. Obviously if the pushrod motors went into the Caddies they would be heavily tweaked for NHV.

And why couldn't an LS engine be as smooth???? Everybody keeps spouting that off for the reason of the Northstar's existence, but I don't understand why. Obviously if the pushrod motors went into the Caddies they would be heavily tweaked for NHV.

Perception is reality.


Future reviews:

"GM cheaped out and went back to the less-complex, less expensive powerplant in their luxury line."

"The primitive growl of the LSx line is perfectly at home in the Corvette, GTO, and Camaro, but does not fit the driving characteristics luxury car buyers demand."

I'm just telling you what Consumer Reports and Car and Driver would say. To you that doesn't matter, but I'm telling you that dropping the Northstar motor would be virtual sabatoge to Cadillac's resurgance.

MY GXP needs premium, so I am not sure that all 5.3's run on Premium. Also, the aftermarket for the DOD vehicles has been stunted because of the complexity.

While the LSx engines are great...Cadillac would get laughed out the room if they tried to take on Mecedes with it on the world theatre. Perception is everything;)

I've yet to drive a pushrod-powered car that had a motor that was quiet enough and had little enough NVH to become acceptable, much less impressive, in a luxury car.

That's not to say it's not possible. I'm sure it might be. But it may be for that reason that people just don't associate a pushrod motor with a true luxury car. I'd love to see GM stick the LS2 in a Caddy STS and quiet it down to near inaudible noise and vibration levels, then see how people respond to it... it definitely wouldn't bother me. The LS2 has great power AND great milage.

That's not to say it's not possible. I'm sure it might be. But it may be for that reason that people just don't associate a pushrod motor with a true luxury car. I'd love to see GM stick the LS2 in a Caddy STS and quiet it down to near inaudible noise and vibration levels, then see how people respond to it... it definitely wouldn't bother me. The LS2 has great power AND great milage.
Sounds like a good Buick doesn't it?

I personally love northstars. both my father's and mother's eldorado ETC's northstars are great engines. so smoooooth. they will get up and move too. plus they sound awesome un-muffled.


thats cool, do you have any more info on your northstar? 440 tq out of a 4.6L engine? did you mean 340 tq?


nope.. 440tq at the flywheel

Why does the Northstar exist?

It won't for long. DOHC "Ultra" V8 will replace it soon

It won't for long. DOHC "Ultra" V8 will replace it soon
AH-HA confirmed the original Ultra was killed a while ago and the new idea is to improve the N*. I expect DI and a VVT system but that is about it.

Perception is reality.


Future reviews:

"GM cheaped out and went back to the less-complex, less expensive powerplant in their luxury line."

"The primitive growl of the LSx line is perfectly at home in the Corvette, GTO, and Camaro, but does not fit the driving characteristics luxury car buyers demand."

I'm just telling you what Consumer Reports and Car and Driver would say. To you that doesn't matter, but I'm telling you that dropping the Northstar motor would be virtual sabatoge to Cadillac's resurgance.

Yeah, but Consumer Reports adn Car and Diver haven't said what you stated they might say, so there is no way to know that is what they would say about it. Perhaps you have ignored me everytime time I have wrote "an LSx engine with NHV levels appropriate for a luxury vehicle". If they could build a smooth pushrod engine, people wouldn't care how it moved the car. Not everyone reads Car and Driver and forms an absolute opinion; some people actually test drive cars. If the engine was smooth, I really can't see Car and Driver complaining about how its valves open, at least not in any length.

Perhaps you have ignored me everytime time I have wrote "an LSx engine with NHV levels appropriate for a luxury vehicle".

I haven't skipped over it at all. Right or wrong, the point isn't necessarily even about how smooth the motor is.

Perception is everything.

Luxury car buyers typically have to keep up with what the guy down the street drives...and I'm sure a few of those guys keep up with the latest and greatest...pushrod motors will never be perceived as "latest and greatest". Sorry, I love the LSx line too, but that's just the way it is.

AH-HA confirmed the original Ultra was killed a while ago and the new idea is to improve the N*. I expect DI and a VVT system but that is about it.

If that is true, is something going to be done about displacement? DI should put the Northstar at about ~360HP, but what the Northstar could really use is a 5.0L version. Cadillac needs to be able to get 400HP N/A out of that engine platform.

I haven't skipped over it at all. Right or wrong, the point isn't necessarily even about how smooth the motor is.

Perception is everything.

Luxury car buyers typically have to keep up with what the guy down the street drives...and I'm sure a few of those guys keep up with the latest and greatest...pushrod motors will never be perceived as "latest and greatest". Sorry, I love the LSx line too, but that's just the way it is.

I still don't agree about your analysis of the typical luxury car buyer. Most luxury car buyers seem to be just like the rest of the buying car public. The buyers care more about stuff like heated seats than they do about what type of engine the car has.

If luxury car buyers were only buying the latest and greatest engines, Mercedes managed to hold on pretty well a few years back with only SOHC 3v engines compared to their competitions DOHC 4v counterparts. Seems to me Mercedes still had no problem selling with their "less than superior" design.

If that is true, is something going to be done about displacement? DI should put the Northstar at about ~360HP, but what the Northstar could really use is a 5.0L version. Cadillac needs to be able to get 400HP N/A out of that engine platform.
Not enough bore spacing, same problem with the Mod motors, for more displacement and I don't think there is any more stroke spacing.

I still don't agree about your analysis of the typical luxury car buyer. Most luxury car buyers seem to be just like the rest of the buying car public. The buyers care more about stuff like heated seats than they do about what type of engine the car has.


Most people don't know a whole lot about geology, but try to convince your wife or girlfriend that a synthetic diamond is just as good as a genuine one.

I agree with ZaphodBeeblebrox on this. I think you guys should drive both before coming to a final conclusion. I own both as well (STS and a T/A), and they "are" entirely two different animals. In regular driving the N* feels very broad in the powerband. The LSX feel more sluggish down low. Now kick it down and a whole world of hurt happens. Trust me I love my LS1 yet, I feel the N* is more appropriate in my Caddy.

Like I said in my last post a couple pages back they are going the DI route on the Northstars, Russtang I understand where you are coming from, but the PRESS would not praise the Lx engine no matter how good it was in this type of car.

Believe or not most lux car buyers will do some research before buying a car, and car mags is their number 1 source of info. For exp. my grandfather could not tell you the diff. between a dohc and pushrod or "cam in block" new gm speak for pushrods.

Yet he has some car mags of five best lux cars or something like that, and if the car mag says this lx engine has great power and is smooth but use old tech design, while another car in the test has this new direct injection and vvt and really smooth and get good gas milage. he will look at first cause THEY will make a big deal with its own side bar on di and vvt etc.

I still don't agree about your analysis of the typical luxury car buyer. Most luxury car buyers seem to be just like the rest of the buying car public. The buyers care more about stuff like heated seats than they do about what type of engine the car has.

But buyers definitely do read product reviews, and as noted above Caddy would get slammed by every single one of them for using a pushrod motor in a mainstream luxury car, justified or not. That alone might be enough to prevent some potential buyers from going down to the dealership to form their own opinions.

Also, you can just imagine what car salesmen from competing dealerships would say when the buyer cross-shops other marques. Probably something like "and Cadillac uses the same old Chevrolet V8 motor that they had back in 1955, whereas we have totally modern DOHC blah blah blah".

Let's face it, the luxury market (whether it be cars, clothes, jewellery, or whatever) is about wants, not needs. Image plays a huge part of this, so if someone thinks he's going to look inferior or have to defend his purchase decision to his peers, he's probably going to think twice no matter how well it performs in the end.

Thanks you hit the nail right on the head. But buyers definitely do read product reviews, and as noted above Caddy would get slammed by every single one of them for using a pushrod motor in a mainstream luxury car, justified or not. That alone might be enough to prevent some potential buyers from going down to the dealership to form their own opinions.

Also, you can just imagine what car salesmen from competing dealerships would say when the buyer cross-shops other marques. Probably something like "and Cadillac uses the same old Chevrolet V8 motor that they had back in 1955, whereas we have totally modern DOHC blah blah blah".

Let's face it, the luxury market (whether it be cars, clothes, jewellery, or whatever) is about wants, not needs. Image plays a huge part of this, so if someone thinks he's going to look inferior or have to defend his purchase decision to his peers, he's probably going to think twice no matter how well it performs in the end.

Since RussStang and I agree to disagree about luxury buyers and their "awareness" of what they're buying, let's take this a step beyond....

Do we even know if it is possible to smooth out a pushrod V8 to current Northstar (and beyond) levels of NVH? Further, does it make sense to do this from a cost standpoint? This motor would see work in even HD trucks. Think HD truck buyers are willing to pay a nice premium for a motor that doesn't even sound like it's running at idle? Think Camaro buyers want a motor that you can't hear at idle? Now we're talking about 2 different pushrod V8's...and so it goes....

Most people don't know a whole lot about geology, but try to convince your wife or girlfriend that a synthetic diamond is just as good as a genuine one.

Great analogy


Since RussStang and I agree to disagree about luxury buyers and their "awareness" of what they're buying, let's take this a step beyond....



The Colorado’s I5 is a great example of people not liking something because of a number or letter. The '07 5 cyl. will put out 242HP which is more than Dodge, Ford, and Toyota V6 engines and it will have 52 more HP than the S10 4.3L V6, yet people still complain about the lack of a V6 even though the #'s are almost identical to GMs own 3.9L HV V6. If Colorado replaced the 5 cyl. with a 240HP 3.9L no one would complain. It is all perception, why should you care if it is a 240HP/240tq V6 or 242HP/241tq 5cyl. as long as gas and acceleration are the same :shrug: You shouldn't, yet people do.

Most people wouldn't know from driving if there car had a 5.3L or a 4.6L Northstar, but you know a lot of luxury buyers are going to go for the N* just because it has more valves and gets the same HP from less displacement.

Since RussStang and I agree to disagree about luxury buyers and their "awareness" of what they're buying, let's take this a step beyond....

Do we even know if it is possible to smooth out a pushrod V8 to current Northstar (and beyond) levels of NVH? Further, does it make sense to do this from a cost standpoint? This motor would see work in even HD trucks. Think HD truck buyers are willing to pay a nice premium for a motor that doesn't even sound like it's running at idle? Think Camaro buyers want a motor that you can't hear at idle? Now we're talking about 2 different pushrod V8's...and so it goes....

I understand what you are saying, but it wouldn't be two totally different v8s, unlike the LSx engines and the Northstars. I am not saying my plan has complete merit, but I am not willing to right off a luxury pushrod motor simply because it is assumed no one would give it the time of day.

A well balanced and blueprinted SBC will run pretty damn smooth. With enough R&D, I don't see why it couldn't be possible for GM to build a smooth running OHV engine.

I think if BMW put a pushrod in the M5, the press would be telling us how smart BMW was, what all the advantages are, and probably how BMW invented the pushrod ;)

Let's try a different tack.

I think that one of the problems the Lincoln LS had was that its engines were at the bottom of the market in terms of horsepower for both their V6 and V8. Of course, they had to be underneath Jaguar, and Jag was next lowest.

Conversely, the Infiniti G35 had more power than everyone else. If Infiniti had released a 220hp G30, I don't think it would have been anywhere near as successful.

Now, GM is cutting back on expenses. The N* is falling behind. How much will it cost to keep pace? How much improvement could they make to the pushrod for luxury applications if they spent 1/5th the amount that it would cost to improve the N* to class pacing standards?

It's not a question of how much smoother a '98 Caddy is compared to a '98 Camaro. If I'm shopping for a sports luxury car this fall, I perceive a 320hp STS V8 versus a 382hp E550, a 380hp GS430, and a 360hp 550i. With the Escalade engine in an STS, I would perceive a 403hp STS. Now maybe Cadillac sells more cars with a 320hp N* than it would with a 403hp VVT 6.2, because people count valves and camshafts. I count hp and torque and the 403hp VVT wins there and beats the compeition too. GM counts millions of $$, and it will take hundreds of those to catch the N* up to the LS-series pushrods as well as the German and Japanese competition versus the 6.2 in the parts bin.

Is it really impossible to improve the smoothness of the pushrod engines beyond the GTO? I thought that the Tahoe/Escalade engines were tuned to be smoother than the sporty engines. What about a special assembly line with premium parts with extra care taken for balancing, etc.? I'm not suggesting that you take an engine out of a GTO and stick it into a Cadillac without modification.

I think if BMW put a pushrod in the M5, the press would be telling us how smart BMW was, what all the advantages are, and probably how BMW invented the pushrod ;)

I think there may be more truth in this statement then you may have intended.

Let's try a different tack.

I think that one of the problems the Lincoln LS had was that its engines were at the bottom of the market in terms of horsepower for both their V6 and V8. Of course, they had to be underneath Jaguar, and Jag was next lowest.

Conversely, the Infiniti G35 had more power than everyone else. If Infiniti had released a 220hp G30, I don't think it would have been anywhere near as successful.

Now, GM is cutting back on expenses. The N* is falling behind. How much will it cost to keep pace? How much improvement could they make to the pushrod for luxury applications if they spent 1/5th the amount that it would cost to improve the N* to class pacing standards?

It's not a question of how much smoother a '98 Caddy is compared to a '98 Camaro. If I'm shopping for a sports luxury car this fall, I perceive a 320hp STS V8 versus a 382hp E550, a 380hp GS430, and a 360hp 550i. With the Escalade engine in an STS, I would perceive a 403hp STS. Now maybe Cadillac sells more cars with a 320hp N* than it would with a 403hp VVT 6.2, because people count valves and camshafts. I count hp and torque and the 403hp VVT wins there and beats the compeition too. GM counts millions of $$, and it will take hundreds of those to catch the N* up to the LS-series pushrods as well as the German and Japanese competition versus the 6.2 in the parts bin.

Is it really impossible to improve the smoothness of the pushrod engines beyond the GTO? I thought that the Tahoe/Escalade engines were tuned to be smoother than the sporty engines. What about a special assembly line with premium parts with extra care taken for balancing, etc.? I'm not suggesting that you take an engine out of a GTO and stick it into a Cadillac without modification.

Plenty of good points made here. I don't see why some people think it would be impossible to iron out a GM pushrod engine into a much smoother running engine. I would say power talks more than camshafts do.

I still don't agree about your analysis of the typical luxury car buyer. Most luxury car buyers seem to be just like the rest of the buying car public. The buyers care more about stuff like heated seats than they do about what type of engine the car has.

If luxury car buyers were only buying the latest and greatest engines, Mercedes managed to hold on pretty well a few years back with only SOHC 3v engines compared to their competitions DOHC 4v counterparts. Seems to me Mercedes still had no problem selling with their "less than superior" design.

Seems to me like you are the one who is not listening.

Someone is reading the magazines because there are about a billion of them in circulation. You loose either way, heres why.

Luxury enthusiast will laugh at pushrods. People who want a luxury car and don't know what it is will here the others laughing and run away. Luxury cars are about status, and it takes a lot less to break it, then it does to build it.

Corvette, GT and Viper all outperform their import counterparts and usually do it for substantially less. At the end of the day its still a ChevyFordDodge, not a BeamerLexusMercedes.

What you are suggesting is certainly POSSIBLE and FEASIBLE, but that doesen't make it a good idea.

(GMs $$$ + Cost of N*) - (Customers who ran away + Ads trying to get them back) = :(

Seems to me like you are the one who is not listening.

Someone is reading the magazines because there are about a billion of them in circulation. You loose either way, heres why.

Luxury enthusiast will laugh at pushrods. People who want a luxury car and don't know what it is will here the others laughing and run away. Luxury cars are about status, and it takes a lot less to break it, then it does to build it.


Cadillac actually still has a long way to go do appeal to the average person aspiring to own a BMW.

I haven't actually read articles in C&D that dismiss pushrod engines as automatically inferior. The Corvette does quite well in comparisons. It doesn't get demerits for pushrods. Maybe from some snobs, but mostly they're just looking for something to complain about anyway. If it's not pushrods, then it's quality of plastics, or something else they use to justify an extra $30K for the Porsche or whatever.

Maybe Cadillac would get some knocks against it for being down in the valve and camshaft count, but it's also going to take some hits for being down in the horsepower count, I predict. What's worse? When you see engines with the right numbers (power, TQ) that you know would fit, it just makes one wonder.

I guess it won't matter in a few years when the Zeta sedans are available. I just happen to think the Tahoe and Escalade V8s would make nice options right now in the Cadillac CTS with a 6 speed automatic behind them . . . a legitimate American interpretation of a luxury sport sedan. The HFV6 just doesn't do it for me (it would if it had 320hp), and the extra $18K + guzzler tax+ manual in the CTS-V isn't that appealing.
Maybe in a couple of years, we'll be able to buy a Pontiac or a Buick (or maybe even a Chevy) to those specs.

I haven't actually read articles in C&D that dismiss pushrod engines as automatically inferior.

This is worth noting, because neither have I. I don't know why every thinks C&D would give a negative remark to an exceptional vehicle if it's only "flaw" was to have a pushrod engine. Was it Motor Trend who wrote an article last year on how pushrod engines aren't as outdated as the public perceives them? I believe the end of the article followed up with something about how they wouldn't be shocked if one day they saw a pushrod Toyota v8.

If the car was a really high quality piece of equipment, it is not going to matter how it's engines valves move.

Its possible...But when things like "Air Conditioned Glove Box" can be what makes the sell between an Audi and BMW... You are taking a big chance by implementing technology a lot people are going to poo poo.

http://www.gminsidenews.com/forums/showthread.php?t=20598

In the end, it would come down to NVH.
A 6.0 LS2 variant with VVT and AFM making 360-370hp with attention to NVH, mated to a 6spd auto could net great power, smooth ride, good gas milage, and all the technobabbly someone could want for 50-60k.
Put an engine cover on it, and no one would know the difference. What would be the down fall if you could do that with an LS2, make it smoother running and better gas milage? Would it be that bad?

I haven't actually read articles in C&D that dismiss pushrod engines as automatically inferior. The Corvette does quite well in comparisons. It doesn't get demerits for pushrods.

This is because the pushrod V8 is a wonderful choice for a Corvette...or GTO...or Camaro....or any other performance-oriented model. Cheaper to manufacture, lightweight, less complex, smaller package. These aren't necessarily considerations in a luxury car. Marketing is, unfortunately. And believe me, when it came out that GM was updating the small block architecture after Ford had switched to the mod motor program, a lot of "experts" did scoff...until they first tested the LS1.

I don't think it's a coincidence by any means that the XLR is basically a Corvette with Cadillac skin....yet they chose the Northstar over the LS2, even though it is down on power. GM must've done enough research to know that a luxury roadster would not be accepted with a 16 valve Chevy engine. Dumb? Probably. But again, we don't decide what people in the market for a $75,000 car want. Those buyers do.

http://www.gminsidenews.com/forums/showthread.php?t=20598


Hmm. That article was posted seven months ago.

Great minds think alike. Mine just thinks more slowly :)

Thats ok, you are out in Cali, so it takes time for infomation to travel out there from the east coast here. ;)
I figured that my little editorial might add to the fire here.

Once, I was on an import board and they were discussing the Z06. It was a long thread with intense discussion, not your typical ricers, but the basic theme was this:

"The Z06 is a really neat car, but did they have to ruin it by using PUSHRODS."

Even when shown the HP/$, HP/lb, engine size advantages and the fact that it is the only 400HP+ car to avoid the gas guzzler tax, most still thought it would be better with a DOHC engine.

If you can't win over non-domestic owners with the greatest pushrod engine of all time, then why are you going to try to put it in your "standard of the world" cadillac?

Once, I was on an import board and they were discussing the Z06. It was a long thread with intense discussion, not your typical ricers, but the basic theme was this:

"The Z06 is a really neat car, but did they have to ruin it by using PUSHRODS."

Even when shown the HP/$, HP/lb, engine size advantages and the fact that it is the only 400HP+ car to avoid the gas guzzler tax, most still thought it would be better with a DOHC engine.

If you can't win over non-domestic owners with the greatest pushrod engine of all time, then why are you going to try to put it in your "standard of the world" cadillac?

Something tells me that the large ammount of luxury cars sales are not going to be made on import car forums. People have been talking sh*t on pushrods for some time now. It will take time for the image to be unmade. In the last few years it has seemed to me that many more people on the internet boards have also become "fans" of the pushrod engine as well.

This is because the pushrod V8 is a wonderful choice for a Corvette...or GTO...or Camaro....or any other performance-oriented model. Cheaper to manufacture, lightweight, less complex, smaller package. These aren't necessarily considerations in a luxury car. Marketing is, unfortunately. And believe me, when it came out that GM was updating the small block architecture after Ford had switched to the mod motor program, a lot of "experts" did scoff...until they first tested the LS1.

Exactly. Caddy would probably take flack for adopting a pushrod engine, until people actual got to drive the cars. If the engine NHV is good, than that perception will likely change as well.

Once, I was on an import board and they were discussing the Z06. It was a long thread with intense discussion, not your typical ricers, but the basic theme was this:

"The Z06 is a really neat car, but did they have to ruin it by using PUSHRODS."

Even when shown the HP/$, HP/lb, engine size advantages and the fact that it is the only 400HP+ car to avoid the gas guzzler tax, most still thought it would be better with a DOHC engine.

If you can't win over non-domestic owners with the greatest pushrod engine of all time, then why are you going to try to put it in your "standard of the world" cadillac?

Because these people are idiots and wouldn't buy anything from GM anyway?

I don't see the point in making core strategic decisions based on assuming your clientele are idiots (unless they are in fact idiots :D ).

Let's say GM had put the Northstar in the Z06. Then they'd all be ragging on GM for the fact that it only had 320hp. Or the supercharged Northstar (a la XLR-V)? Then they'd be ragging on GM for needing supercharging to get 440hp, whereas the new AMG/BMW/whatever engines have 500 without supercharging. Or if they're Japanese car fans, they'd be complaining that the EVO has 280hp from 2.0 liters, and the (hypothetical) N* Z06 needs 4.4 liters to get 440hp. Or they'd find something else to complain about, like weight (how much would a supercharged N* Z06 weigh? A lot more than the current Z06).

Point being, ignore the idiots.

You know, if you can spend an extra few million $$ to make a change to appeal to the idiots, then go ahead and do it. But designing a completely different engine family and then underfunding it, so that it falls behind, because it costs too much to design two state-of-the-art V8 engine families, just to please the valve and cam counting import bigots . . . . .

Now, maybe this Fall, GM will announce their updated Northstar with 375hp, and it will beat the LS2 in fuel efficiency, and then I can eat a nice tasty dish of crow. I wouldn't mind :)

The Z06 is a really neat car, but did they have to ruin it by using PUSHRODS."

You are talking about a group of people that really think VTEC is the replacement for DISPLACEMENT. In another lifetime these guys were probably all hemi fans...

Problem with people is that they assume complexity = superiority.

Nobody appreciates simplicity anymore :no:

I was racing a Camaro the other day, and he was pulling on me until VTEC kicked in and I beat him bad.

I was racing a Camaro the other day, and he was pulling on me until VTEC kicked in and I beat him bad.

LG4 I assume ;)

haha

poor LG4 :(