'09 Camaro vs. '09 Mustang smackdown!

http://www.motortrend.com/multimedia/animations/112_0605_virtual_road_test_animations/

pretty cool virtual showdown between the 5th gen and the projected '09 Mustang lineup. Looks like things will be close, but not close enough :D great animation job. also, notice on the slalom and figure-8 runs - the Mustang looks like it rolls all over the place, while the Camaro looks tighter, more in control. The dragstrip is great, too - and some eye-popping times from the ZL1 and GT500.

Glad you found that, I got the issue a few days ago but that wasn't online then.

Thanks! Neat stuff!

Haha! Look at the sloppy mustang, it looks like its about to roll over!

Yeah I read that article at the grocery store yesterday, pretty interesting stuff....

straight ownage by the ZL1

heh.. the V6 camaro's slalom avg mph is the same as the mustang shelby gt500's

Cool, but too bad they got the model names wrong. ;)

I screwed around with it some more. do it at 10 FPS to get a sense for the actual speed. 20 FPS is too slow.

WTF are they basing this off of? Do they know what engines are going to be in the camaros or how much they'll even weigh? Why are they doing comparisons when they dont have any of the facts?

WTF are they basing this off of? Do they know what engines are going to be in the camaros or how much they'll even weigh? Why are they doing comparisons when they dont have any of the facts?

not sure of the Camaro V6...the 'Stang V6 is the 4.0L.

Z/28 is an LS2, i believe, and the "Boss 330" has an upcoming 4.6L i think.

The ZL-1 has to have the LS7, and the GT500 has a supercharged 5.4L.

as for weight, the Mustangs are easy to do since the model exists already. The Camaro is a different story, but speculation places it around 3500 lbs.

this whole thing is simply for fun, to see what would happen should the two models meet on the strip or skidpad. I would expect the results to be the same as those in the animations :D

Pretty interesting, though we basically know nothing of what the Camaro is gonna be bringing (well except for those in the know). Can't wait till we can see a real comparison test!

i think i read somewhere that they did work with Chevy to get it as accurate as possible.. i don't know what kinda info they got.. i don't even have the link where i read that.. i'll search for it after work

Eh, good for entetainment value I guess. Mustang is not standing still by any means...

Eh, good for entetainment value I guess. Mustang is not standing still by any means...


you're right, she's sitting:D

you're right, she's sitting:D
Let's not get too cocky just yet. There are still some Coletti-like personalities over at Ford. We should leave the magazine racing to the ricers.

Z/28 is an LS2, i believe, and the "Boss 330" has an upcoming 4.6L i think.

My guess is the "Boss 330" has the 330ci. 5.4L V8 found in other Ford vehicles.:D;) My guess is they will go with the 3 valve.

I have a hard time believing the 1/4-mile times listed in that article. I just read it last night (just got the issue at home) and don't have it in front of me but I want to say the V6 camaro was quoted at something like 14.5 @ 106 mph... sorry, I just don't see a 240 horsepower V6 at 3600 pounds or so trapping at 106 mph, and if it did somehow trap at 106mph, it sure as hell wouldn't be running a 14.5

Sorry, but the V6 isn't going to trap over 100, period. The other times had a trap of something like 120mph for the Z28 and around 130mph for the 505 horsepower version... equally unbelievable.

Maybe they mentioned somewhere in the article that the software they used records the trap at the end of the quarter mile (like the G-tech meter does) rather than averaging out the last bit like is done in real life? But if so, that's dumb... why come up with such high tech software and then not have it calculate the quartermile properly?

I love that even the magazines are bench racing now. :D

I have a hard time believing the 1/4-mile times listed in that article. I just read it last night (just got the issue at home) and don't have it in front of me but I want to say the V6 camaro was quoted at something like 14.5 @ 106 mph... sorry, I just don't see a 240 horsepower V6 at 3600 pounds or so trapping at 106 mph, and if it did somehow trap at 106mph, it sure as hell wouldn't be running a 14.5

Based on the V6 Camaro vs V8 colorado thread it seems the V6 Camaro will likely be HF and have at least 300 hp.

Sorry, but the V6 isn't going to trap over 100, period. The other times had a trap of something like 120mph for the Z28 and around 130mph for the 505 horsepower version... equally unbelievable.
Who said the Z28 would have an LS2 or only 400 hp? ZL1 could use the 6.3 SC V8 with 3 valve heads by the time it comes out. It could put down well over 550 hp. Then again this is all just bench racing which means not jack.

that was pretty sick

Cute little program, I think it just crashed my pc. It wouldn't turn back on for 30 min.:mad:

good 'fake" test. Reality will prove quite differently. The 2009 Mustang GT will real good.

While it's an interesting Sim. It's still just a Sim. By the way the trap speeds are 8 - 10% to high.

And some of the engine options my be off a bit as well.

I personally believe the base Camaro will get the 240hp 3.9L V6 to challenge the base V6 'Stang.

The Z/28 will challenge the GT. And the GT is estimated to make between 320-340hp by '09. And the Z/28 may get 350hp LS V8.

The SS model may get the new 6.2L LS3(which makes 403 hp in the '07 Escalade, and will be at least 430hp in the base 'Vette, and new GTO). This will be the Challenger SRT-8 & Boss "Stang fighter. Expect roughly 420hp, and a base Price tag of around 35K.

If Chevy does build a Camaro that is a Shelby GT500 fighter, look possibly slightly detuned(to about 480hp) LS7, and a base Price tag over 50K. But truthfully I tend to think Chevy just use the base 'Vette to battle the GT500, since the 'Vette is lighter than the Camaro will be. And the 'Vette with LS3 will already equal or beat the Shelby GT500, in price & performance.

Cool, but too bad they got the model names wrong. ;)

Not necessarily. Z28 is a race car like the Boss 302 Mustang. The ZL1 was the closet thing Camaro had to a Shelby. I get confused though because I dont know what the difference was between a 69 Boss 429 and a 69 Shelby 429 in performance and everything else for like a 69 Mustang.

What makes things confusing is there was never a Big Block Z28 to go up against the Boss 429 If Im way off let me know...

that test was good, except the Camaro always one, and it was virtual not real. The new 2009 Mustang GT will be 90% different then the one right now. The Hurricane 6.2 is alive and well, don't think for one second FORD is putting the Mustang program on hold. The new Stang GT will have well over 330 h.p. in 09 I guarantee it.

All I kept thinking was that the CG Camaro in the simulation, looks more like a circa 2015 Chery rip off of a Camaro.

While it's an interesting Sim. It's still just a Sim. By the way the trap speeds are 8 - 10% to high.

And some of the engine options my be off a bit as well.

I personally believe the base Camaro will get the 240hp 3.9L V6 to challenge the base V6 'Stang.

The Z/28 will challenge the GT. And the GT is estimated to make between 320-340hp by '09. And the Z/28 may get 350hp LS V8.

The SS model may get the new 6.2L LS3(which makes 403 hp in the '07 Escalade, and will be at least 430hp in the base 'Vette, and new GTO). This will be the Challenger SRT-8 & Boss "Stang fighter. Expect roughly 420hp, and a base Price tag of around 35K.

If Chevy does build a Camaro that is a Shelby GT500 fighter, look possibly slightly detuned(to about 480hp) LS7, and a base Price tag over 50K. But truthfully I tend to think Chevy just use the base 'Vette to battle the GT500, since the 'Vette is lighter than the Camaro will be. And the 'Vette with LS3 will already equal or beat the Shelby GT500, in price & performance.

Do the people that post this stuff actually read anything that has been discussed at all on this forum in the last few weeks? He is telling us what he believes the powertrains are going to be, based on his own beliefs, but their is very little credence to any of this. I admittedly know no one who is an it GM, but many of the more respected members of this board seem to, and we have already gotten quite alot of info on the up and coming powertrains that is totally contrary to this, besides the Mustang getting 320-340hp.

About the v6 times, if a Camaro gets a 300hp+ v6 as being speculated, I see no reason as to why the 5th gen won't run the time in the simulation, even at is hefty hypothesised weight.

that test was good, except the Camaro always one, and it was virtual not real. The new 2009 Mustang GT will be 90% different then the one right now. The Hurricane 6.2 is alive and well, don't think for one second FORD is putting the Mustang program on hold. The new Stang GT will have well over 330 h.p. in 09 I guarantee it.

How do you guarantee it? I really doubt the 09 Mustang GT will be "90%" different. That is a pretty unrealistic statement. I also really, really doubt that if we see a version of the Hurricane engine in a Mustang, that it is going to be in GT trim. I don't think anyone ever thought for a second Ford is putting their Mustang on hold, as it would be pretty stupid to do so considering how it sells. I just don't think there is going to be much to worry about from the Mustang, trim for trim, except for maybe the GT500. GM motors make more hp per dollar than the Ford engines, and that is the Camaro's ace in its sleeve.

Besides, I thought I remember reading somewhere that the IRS that the Mustang was supposed to be getting in 09 is now under scrunity as to how likely it may be to actually get it?

Based on the V6 Camaro vs V8 colorado thread it seems the V6 Camaro will likely be HF and have at least 300 hp.


Who said the Z28 would have an LS2 or only 400 hp? ZL1 could use the 6.3 SC V8 with 3 valve heads by the time it comes out. It could put down well over 550 hp. Then again this is all just bench racing which means not jack.

Well... I'm at home now and the magazine says 240hp V6, 403hp Z28, and 505 hp ZL-1.

Now whether or not that's the motors they actually come out with, that is the parameters the test was based on. So regardless of what you suspect we may find in these vehicles; that's not what motortrend suspects and that's not what their benchracing was based on.

Well... I'm at home now and the magazine says 240hp V6, 403hp Z28, and 505 hp ZL-1.

Now whether or not that's the motors they actually come out with, that is the parameters the test was based on. So regardless of what you suspect we may find in these vehicles; that's not what motortrend suspects and that's not what their benchracing was based on.

Oh, I didn't realize that that is what the number was Motortrend was using. There is no way a 3600lb Camaro is going to run that time with 240hp.

Oh, I didn't realize that that is what the number was Motortrend was using. There is no way a 3600lb Camaro is going to run that time with 240hp.

Well, actually the V6 Camaro & V6 Mustang simmed by Motor Trend, both weight around 3400 lbs. Still even at that weight the Camaro should being doing about 95-96mph at the end of the 1/4 mile, instead of 104 mph(as MT says).

Like I said the trap Speed(at the end of the 1/4) is about 8-10% higher that real world.

the sim may be assuming perfect track conditions - i.e. perfect temp, humidity, traction, etc. that could contribute to the times and speeds we're seeing.

that test was good, except the Camaro always won.

funny how history repeats itself, huh? :D

I'm sure GM will have all the bases covered when it comes to the Mustang. regardless of whatever mythical super-engine someone is predicting for the 2009 Mustang, GM will have something to put it to shame.

This is truly internet racing! bogus.

How many gears did they use for the simulation?

ok, i have the magazine in front of me now.. no i didnt spend money on it

the reason the trap speeds are so high... they didnt have any drag coefficient or front area on either car, so they decided to run both cars "in a vacuum" with no wind resistance at all.. in the magazine they state "All simulated times to speeds above 60 mph will therefore be artificially low"

as for drivetrains..
for the V6 Camaro they put our friendly 3900 in there with what it's rated now at 240hp/240tq.. they pulled the rest of the drivetrain from the solstice.. the 5 speed gearbox and the 3.91 axle ratio.. they pegged the v6 at 3400lbs

the mustang i assume has the same 4L v6.. they have it listed as 210hp/240tq. the mustang has a 3.31 rear

the mid range models.. they call the Camaro a Z28 and the Mustang a Boss 330.. why that name? the number 330 comes from the displacement of the engine they predict will be used.. a 5.4L version of the modular v8 engine.. they say "Much internet speculation suggests it'll pack the Australian "Boss 290" 32-valve 5.4-liter. That iron block wonder develops 389 ohrsepower and 384lb-ft."

They have the Z28 weighting at 3500 and the Boss330 at 3700

they said they gave the Z28 a 6.2L.. and used engine map data given to them about the 540hp LS2 in the concept and scaled it down to match predicted peak hp of the 6.2L.. which they said makes 403hp/417tq
the Z28 they gave a 6speed manual with a 3.73 rear end.. the Boss330 has a 6 speed and a 3.55 rear

as for the ZL1.. and i quote "(Surely, Chevy will resurrect the hallowed ZL1 nomenclature for this monder-day all-aluminum 427.6 cubic-inch Camaro)"

yeah it basically comes with the LS7, 6speed, and a 3.73 rear

they have the ZL1 at 3600lbs and the Shelby GT500 at 3900lbs

a couple of other things.. they got suspension info from GM about the concept and they are using that for all 3 camaro models..

they used the same suspension setup for all 3 mustang models too.. not the same as the camaro.. you know what i mean

wheel sizes for the camaro.. V6 is 17".. Z28 and ZL1 are 18" front and 19" back

tires.. V6 is 235/55R17
Z28 and Z28 are 275/35R18; 325/30R19

Look in the specs of the ZL1
They have the engine size incorrectly labeled as the 6.2L

Also, FWIW, the 2007 Escalade does not have the LS3, but the L92.
L92 = 6.2L truck version, LS3 = 6.2L car version (my guess).

Sims are find for guess work -- but the truth is it's just a sim. And are like not to reflect the real world match up.

If you want a real world match -- but don't want to wait til the 2009 models come out.

Then I suggest something like this get 3 2002 Camaros, and 3 2006 Mustangs, and perform the following modes.

The V6 Camaro w/5speed - either swap the 3800 V6 for a new 3.9L V6 or better still just keep the 3800 V6, and add the following performance modes - a performance cat-back exhaust system, a ram-air system, and a performance chip. Then you'll have a 240hp v6, 5 speed Camaro.

The V6 'Stang is of course stock.

The Z28 w/6 speed - take out the LS1, and then drop in an LS2, or just convert the LS1 to an LS6(400hp).

The Boss 'Stang w/5 speed - basically drop the '04 Cobra motor(390hp supercharged 4.6L) in to a '06 'Stang GT.

For the ZL1 - Take a Camaro Z28 and swap out the LS1 for the LS7.

For the Shelby - just get a new Shelby.

It's just that simple -- and you'll get more realistic results.

I personally believe the base Camaro will get the 240hp 3.9L V6 to challenge the base V6 'Stang.

The Z/28 will challenge the GT. And the GT is estimated to make between 320-340hp by '09. And the Z/28 may get 350hp LS V8.

The SS model may get the new 6.2L LS3(which makes 403 hp in the '07 Escalade, and will be at least 430hp in the base 'Vette, and new GTO). This will be the Challenger SRT-8 & Boss "Stang fighter. Expect roughly 420hp, and a base Price tag of around 35K.

If Chevy does build a Camaro that is a Shelby GT500 fighter, look possibly slightly detuned(to about 480hp) LS7, and a base Price tag over 50K. But truthfully I tend to think Chevy just use the base 'Vette to battle the GT500, since the 'Vette is lighter than the Camaro will be. And the 'Vette with LS3 will already equal or beat the Shelby GT500, in price & performance.

Your not in the ballpark buddy ;)

How do you think they took those pictures of the Camaro, did GM let them or were they CGI?

If you want a real world match -- but don't want to wait til the 2009 models come out.

Then I suggest something like this get 3 2002 Camaros, and 3 2006 Mustangs, and perform the following modes.

The V6 Camaro w/5speed - either swap the 3800 V6 for a new 3.9L V6 or better still just keep the 3800 V6, and add the following performance modes - a performance cat-back exhaust system, a ram-air system, and a performance chip. Then you'll have a 240hp v6, 5 speed Camaro.

.
So this will perform exactly like a 5th gen.



NOT.

The Camaro times are accurate because GM has been working on a pulsed phase inverter that will create a vacuum along the car's velocity vector. It should be ready for the initial release of the Camaro.

Your not in the ballpark buddy ;)

Yeah, I have been noticing that as well. Just spending some time around here piecing together some of the info thrown around here would validate that.

So this will perform exactly like a 5th gen.



NOT.



I've never said that the test would be exactly like a 5th Gen test. But it would sure be a lot better than a any computer sim (under a vacuum) conditions. And you would have a test that is at least with a reasonable margin of error(2-4%, instead of the 8-10% of the sim).

I've never said that the test would be exactly like a 5th Gen test. But it would sure be a lot better than a any computer sim (under a vacuum) conditions. And you would have a test that is at least with a reasonable margin of error(2-4%, instead of the 8-10% of the sim).

the point of the simulations motor trend did was to compare the hypothetical 09 models of camaro vs mustang, not to give accurate quarter mile times or whatever

i think it did what it set out to do quite well.. this is not your typical "bench racing" .. this sim takes into account a lot of variables

I've never said that the test would be exactly like a 5th Gen test. But it would sure be a lot better than a any computer sim (under a vacuum) conditions. And you would have a test that is at least with a reasonable margin of error(2-4%, instead of the 8-10% of the sim).

I don't know dude.

You said this:

The V6 Camaro w/5speed - either swap the 3800 V6 for a new 3.9L V6 or better still just keep the 3800 V6, and add the following performance modes - a performance cat-back exhaust system, a ram-air system, and a performance chip. Then you'll have a 240hp v6, 5 speed Camaro.

And now you say that that would only give you a 2-4% margin of error compared to the performance of a 5th gen.

How do you quantify that 2-4%?

You're talking like you're spewing facts - when in acuality you're making wild guesses.

Well, the possible 2-4% margin of error - could be caused by a several different factors. A modified Gen 4 & the production Gen 5.

These 4 possible factors, and the true is there could be a few more that I have thought of.

1st - is a difference in actual car's weight.

2nd - is aerodynamics(ie Drag Coefficient).

3rd - is Drive Ratios

4rd - is simple difference in indivdual drivers.

Well, the possible 2-4% margin of error - could be caused by a several different factors. A modified Gen 4 & the production Gen 5.

These 4 possible factors, and the true is there could be a few more that I have thought of.

1st - is a difference in actual car's weight.

2nd - is aerodynamics(ie Drag Coefficient).

3rd - is Drive Ratios

4rd - is simple difference in indivdual drivers.


- What is the 5th gen's actual weight?

- What is the 5th gen CD?

- What are the 5th gen's axle ratios ( or better yet effective torque multiplication)?

..........


waiting..........


hmmmm....guess you don't know .

And then you compare all of these unknown factors to a modified 4th gen....and get a 2-4% margin of error?

:bs:

:lol:

That's right, Z284ever ... I don't know what the exact Weight, CD, or axle Ratios for the 5th Gen Camaro. No one outside of GM does - and I bet very few people inside GM actually know. Hence the margin of error.

My whole point in Motor Trend - should have tested different 4th Gen Camaros with the modification I stated - in order to get a better sample of real world conditions - instead of just plugging "their best guesses" into a computer sim that has test conditions in a Vacuum.

The Truth is the only way we will truely know how the new Camaro stacks up against the new Mustang - is a full on road test in 2009 - or when ever it hits the streets. Til then all the computers sims in the world are total meaningless.

I'd be willing to bet the 5th gen V-6 camaro, in one form of trim at least, will run somewhere in the mid to high 13's in the quarter. ;) (Oh and I do know I mentioned that their would only be one level of V-6 before, I like to play the misinformation game just as much as some of rest of you)

See I can do the winky thing too. :p Haha, but yes a nice possibly DI V-6 putting out 300 horses should propel it quite nicely. Now how well it will end up being able to be launched is another thing entirely.

My whole point in Motor Trend - should have tested different 4th Gen Camaros with the modification I stated - in order to get a better sample of real world conditions - instead of just plugging "their best guesses" into a computer sim that has test conditions in a Vacuum.

I am pretty sure his whole point was that using the 4th gen as a basis of comparison would be just as meaningless, considering how different the 5th gen will be.

Honestly, I would probably trust the computer simulation more than how a 4th gen performs modified to the Motor Trend criteria.

I'd be willing to bet the 5th gen V-6 camaro, in one form of trim at least, will run somewhere in the mid to high 13's in the quarter. ;) (Oh and I do know I mentioned that their would only be one level of V-6 before, I like to play the misinformation game just as much as some of rest of you)

See I can do the winky thing too. :p Haha, but yes a nice possibly DI V-6 putting out 300 horses should propel it quite nicely. Now how well it will end up being able to be launched is another thing entirely.
I have a time of a 2003 350Z with Track Package rated at 287HP and 3197lbs with a 6 speed care of Sport Compact Car: 14.1s @ 99.3mph. The 2006 has 300HP and is listed at 3400lbs curb weight on Edmunds, but I don't have any quarter mile times for it. So, what you said would not be outside the realm of possibility.
;)

Must have been a slow month for Motor Trend! I took a pear at it while waiting at the drug store. I can't beleive they would print this blatent speculation. Its no doubt fun to imagine or wish but to pair these cars up years in advance is silly!

I flipped through the article. It looks like the Camaro beats the Mustang even in hypothetical events!