R. Wagoner: "If we didn't build it, we'd be brain dead".

Rick Wagoner regarding the Camaro on 60 Minutes tonight.

damn i missed good TV!!

what was the interview about? how did the camaro come up?

damn i missed good TV!!

what was the interview about? how did the camaro come up?

It was a story about GM's current situation.

High points were Wagoner being interviewed in Detroit next to the Camaro Concept and Lutz giving sneak peeks of future Caddy's.

Let's hope there is a GM to build the Camaro in a few years...:cry:

Yeah, I saw the show and was impressed with the presentation. Basically, it gave a reader's digest version of GM's current financial situation, and emphasized the albatross around GM's neck with respect to pensions and medical benefits... that we're all aware of... but perhaps John Q. Public is not aware of.
Numbers were thrown out with respect to how much was added on to the price of each GM vehicle going out the door because of this situation and sufficeth to say, (I forget the exact $ figure, but it was in the range of 2Gs+). If I was hearing this for the first time, I'd be thinking to myself, "Holy Crap!!"... is this what GM has to deal with to sell cars in this day and age?!?:eek:
In the presentation as well, was a recognition that in order to extricate themselves from this situation, GM has to sell a good product... and lots of it. "Product, product, product!" was the quote from Lutz. There was talk about future models in the pipeline (with a tantalizing removal of the tarp from what was probably the new CTS) and a nice 'spiel on the Camaro and its intro at NAIAS... hence the quote in the title.
Bottom line is that AFAIC, this segment went a long way in explaining to the general public what the plight of GM is, at this particular point in time, in a fashion that is understandable... and if anybody who has 1/2 a brain in their head is able to take this information to the next level, then the obvious conclusion is that "buying American" will bear many benefits in the future for individuals and the general economy !
Oh yeah... and the issue of quality and reliability with respect to American-built cars was also addressed and the idea that "the quality of American cars is equal to or better than foreign cars is a reality today... the problem is getting the public to recognize this fact." was expressed loud and clear.
... and a really great job on the Camaro intro... there are still a whole whack of people out there who are totally in the dark about this car... and I think this segment just opened up a whole lotta eyes! Great free advertising!! :thumb:

Best regardSS,

Elie

Overall, I was very pleased with the 60 minutes segment. I think it made some very good points.

However, there's simply no way you can explain in 15 minutes what the problems are facing not only the automobile industry, but ANY legacy company. Same with articles in magazines. Frankly, it would take a mini-series alone to explain the issues at GM.

But......I sure hope Mr and Mrs America were listening.

I wonder how many people really listened to what Rick Wagoner said about bankruptcy..........we DON'T want to go there.......it's an easy out, but it's simply WRONG.

A certain 'BM' can take all the shots he wants at Rick......but I think the guy's a very very decent human being. (I can't say that about everyone...)

A certain 'BM'

:lol:

Would you be able to specify if that was indeed the CTS or some future coupe concept or something?

I saw the segment... good tv... And I usually don't watch 60 minutes, got lucky :)

That IS the CTS.

I got lucky and caught it as well...however, I think the quote was more similar to '...if we didn't built it, it might suggest [that?] we're brain dead.' -which is different, but very much the same as what you said ;)

I just thought it was great how the Camaro was the background for the whole interview... :D

In this day and age you only get 15 min to explain anything before you lose the public's attention on matters like this. Most, unless they are directly involved they just don't car.

They did good and showed GM is not the evil incompitdent empire some try to make it out to be.

Let's face it at least they did not strat a toy rocket on a Silverado gas tank and try to blow something up for once.

One thing I thought was a big red herring was when the narrator said the health care costs for hourly employees are a disadavntage because the import auto makers all have government run/funded socialized medicine.

Well I guess that's true, but its not an issue of competitiveness with import brands because 95% of import branded cars are built in the US. So its not an issue of govt insurance versus private insurance...after all if GM didn't have to buy insurance for its employees it would have its taxes jacked to the moon to pay for the govt to do it.

The issue with health care is simply that that plan is way too generous when compared with the plans offered by import auto makers with US operations. I have a friend who just started at the new Nissan HQ here and he pays less out of his check per month than I do working at a University for his plan...so its not like the import companies are screwing their people. They get good plans, its just like the guy said on 60 Minutes, its a silver plan, not gold.

And the fact they have 1.4m people on the plan hurts GM too. I don't think its the cost per employee so much as the total legacy cost of insuring 1.4m employees, pensioners, and dependents.

And the fact they have 1.4m people on the plan hurts GM too. I don't think its the cost per employee so much as the total legacy cost of insuring 1.4m employees, pensioners, and dependents.

It's both, to be sure. A lot of GM's retirees are in their last years, where the medical costs are the highest. Many of these folks lived longer than initially expected, thanks in large part to the healthcare GM provided them. But it's meant that GM has had to pay to care for them longer than initially budgeted, at much higher costs than initially budgeted. The good news (for GM, anyway) is in about five years' time the number of retirees will begin to slowly decline.

As Chris 96 WS6 stated, The forgeign companies aren't just screwing people on healthcare. I am the "friend" who got hired for Nissan Corporate, and my benefits here are WAY better than I had workin for a HOSPITAL. Thats right...

As for the pensions... Thats a whole other story. I have a great uncle who has been drawing pension from GM for 30 years. Thats right... 30 years. He worked down at Doraville forever. Retired earlier than the norm, and has been set ever since. He doesn't need it. But he keeps getting... Things like that can kill a major corporation...

Too bad I missed the show. Wish I could have seen it. Seems like it was pretty informative for the time frame of it.

Well I guess that's true, but its not an issue of competitiveness with import brands because 95% of import branded cars are built in the US.

Not to nit-pick but that figure is not right. Lexus alone still builds 100% of their vehicles in Japan....

Infinity (built by Nissan) builds all their cars in Japan also. Nissan itself actually only still has one car back in Japan, the 350Z. Everything else is North American built. Be it US via Canton MS or Smyrna TN, Mexico or Canada.

Built or assembled here?

Don't forget that the people who build the parts also sometimes fall under the legacy costs.

Not to nit-pick but that figure is not right. Lexus alone still builds 100% of their vehicles in Japan....

The RX300/330 is built in Cambridge, Ontario.

Well, we can split hairs but my point is still valid....the competition isn't govt funded healthcare in foreign countries. That's just shifting the final payor and the employer is still paying whether directly or indirectly.

I missed it but I heard it was pretty good. A guy I work with who is kind of anti-GM even said he liked some of the decisions that Rick Wagoner apparently was talking about, especially the one about bankruptcy.

99% of the foreign branded cars are not built in North America.

None of the Korean brands are.......and many of the Japanese are built in Japan........further, most of the components in a "U.S." built Japanese car are built in Japan or places other than North America. And we won't even get into the European brands..........

99% of the foreign branded cars are not built in North America.
:confused: I can only guess you're trying to bait people with that statement. So I'll take the bait.

Toyota for example produced 1.5 million vehicles in North America last year, out of sales of about 2.4 million. Not a bad percentage. I know you've posted in the past about their relative economic contribution and I can't argue with that, but your above statement is plain not true.

None of the Korean brands are.......
Hyundai has a plant in Alabama churning out Sonotas as we speak. And Kia is in the process of building their own North American plant.

99% of the foreign branded cars are not built in North America.

None of the Korean brands are.......and many of the Japanese are built in Japan........further, most of the components in a "U.S." built Japanese car are built in Japan or places other than North America. And we won't even get into the European brands..........

I said 95% but whatever. OK, so I grossly overestimated. Still my point is GM's troubles aren't because the US doesn't have socialized medicine, and I thought that was a gross oversimplification on 60 Minutes' part and it shows their agenda.

Other than that I thought the piece was very good....best thing I've seen on that program in years.

Another problem that was pointed out was the paying of idle workers from clos(ed/ing) plants. That crap has to stop. I do think the UAW is coming around realizing that there's only so much they can leech off GM before it dies.

Another problem that was pointed out was the paying of idle workers from clos(ed/ing) plants. That crap has to stop. I do think the UAW is coming around realizing that there's only so much they can leech off GM before it dies.

That was perhaps the most heartening part of the whole segment...when Kroft was talking to the union guys in the restaurant and they pretty much acknowledged things have to change for them to keep their jobs.

arn't all honda's other than the S2000 made here?

:confused: I can only guess you're trying to bait people with that statement. So I'll take the bait.

Toyota for example produced 1.5 million vehicles in North America last year, out of sales of about 2.4 million. Not a bad percentage. I know you've posted in the past about their relative economic contribution and I can't argue with that, but your above statement is plain not true.


Hyundai has a plant in Alabama churning out Sonotas as we speak. And Kia is in the process of building their own North American plant.

You aren't thinking globally, and you are forgetting that foreign car makers who produce in the US are fairly recent in efficiency.

Toyota makes a godawful number more than 2.4 million cars worldwide.

The cars made here in the US are from plants that use far fewer people to make a car than it took to make a GM (or Ford, or Chrysler) up to about 10-15 years ago. There have been many hundreds of thousands of GM employees that have retired.


So you have a one-two punch at work. First, GM is responsible for every worker who has ever worked for GM all the way back to when it took 10 people to do the work that one does today. Second, Japan, Canada, and Germany especially have a health care system that takes care of everyone in their respective country.

There probally isn't too many retired Toyota or BMW workers drawing pension in the US, being that their plants have been in operation only within the past 15 to 20 years.

You can't do a snapshot today and make a judgement that Toyota has to pay health care too, so where's the problem. Instead you have to look at Toyota's worldwide operations, and see what the burden is compared to GM. GM's biggest operation and largest number of employees (by a humongous amount) is right here in the US.


Scotts not baiting anyone. He's stating the facts.

And I'm saying who specifically is paying for the health coverage isn't the problem either. If you want to get real picky the German automakers are saddled with much higher total taxation in their home country along with ridiculously lax worker vacation policies, etc. So again, its a Red Herring IMO to single out who specifically pays for health care as THE reason GM is in trouble.

You have to think GLOBALLY, right? Govt health care doesn't happen in a vacuum and if you are going to say govt healthcare makes foreign automakers more efficient then you need to step back and look at the total buearcratic burden they have to deal with in these respective countries.

Lack of Govt Healthcare is NOT the reason GM is in trouble. There's a lot of reasons, health insurance legacy costs being one of them, but specifically govt vs. private insurance isn't one of them.

If we got universal socialized medicine tomorrow, GM's wagon would not be fixed. Anybody at GM who believes this sets themselves up for a big fall, because there's a ton of other bigger issues that need to be fixed to fix the company.

I suppose going to govt healthcare would take all those pensioners off GM's healthcare rolls, but would an overnight 20% increase in taxation to cover the cost of the govt program help? Probably not? In the end it is not due to a lack of Govt Insurance, it is due to overly generous policies at GM over the last 30 years. That's not the fault of government in any way, GM knew what it was promising before hand and there are countless other unionized and non-union companies in the US that have not promised the moon...and consequently they're not out there carping about needing Govt Healthcare to compete.

I guess I should have kept my trap shut in the beginning because now we're off on this tangent and no one can seem to get off of it.

You aren't thinking globally, and you are forgetting that foreign car makers who produce in the US are fairly recent in efficiency.

Toyota makes a godawful number more than 2.4 million cars worldwide.

You're right, I wasn't thinking globally (although I didn't think that was the thrust of this thread). However even so, to go back to the Toyota example they produced 1.5 million cars in NA and sold about 8.5 million worldwide; still a pretty good percentage.

As to the rest of the points in your post, I wasn't challenging that, I was merely pointing out the production sales/numbers. I'm sure RP knows the real numbers are not what he posted, so either he was exaggerating for effect or trying to elicit a response. Either way, I just wanted to bring some of the real numbers out.

You aren't thinking globally, and you are forgetting that foreign car makers who produce in the US are fairly recent in efficiency.

Toyota makes a godawful number more than 2.4 million cars worldwide.

You're right, I wasn't thinking globally (although I didn't think that was the thrust of this thread). However even so, to go back to the Toyota example they produced 1.5 million cars in NA and sold about 8.5 million worldwide; still a pretty good percentage.

As to the rest of the points in your post, I wasn't challenging that, I was merely pointing out the production sales/numbers. I'm sure RP knows the real numbers are not what he posted, so either he was exaggerating for effect or trying to elicit a response. Either way, I just wanted to bring some of the real numbers out.

Haha...I was reading this thread and then asked myself..."what was the title to this thread again?"

Anyway, yes...you would be dumb not to make it. Us enthsuiasts wait since 2001 for a new Camaro, you invite out 250 enthuisasts (thank you again btw) to see this beauty, and then you back out? It would mean death.

....Lack of Govt Healthcare is NOT the reason GM is in trouble...

100% right. It IS a red herring as far as it putting GM in it's current trouble.

GM is in trouble because they put all their eggs in one basket (Larges SUVs & trucks) and had a management team that thought of cars as low profit appliances worthy of nothing more than an afterthought. I was making hay of this a year ago when GM was whining that it was health care costs that was killing them (despite having only 1 car in the entire 7 division company...the imported GTO... I'd even consider buying).

However, GM's issue is that they have tons of retirees & it's hurting them.


We can debate government health care and business taxes till the cows come home, but all our domestic auto companies are in favor of it, and so is pretty much every business, despite additional taxes. Pretty sure there's reasons for this. Health care costs are rising many times more than inflation, and as someone pointed out once, over half of health care costs tend to go to people in the last 5 years of their life.

Intrestingly, GM expects to be out of the woods at the start of the next decade.... about 5 years. :think:

The thing i can't get over is that just three or four years ago they made record profits. It really gets to me when some dumb reporter gets on tv and says America doesn't build quality cars. I saw a report on AutoWeek last year that said in 1980 for every 100 American cars that left the factory there were 106 problems. The Japanese and Germans were lower in the 60-80 range. Now for every 100 cars there are 16 problems. The Germans, 17 and the Japanese about 14. So America is right there. As far as product, we had the 4th gen Camaro and the public bought trucks instead. Do you know in 1992 GM and Ford were selling about 250,000 trucks a year, and by the late 90s that became 750,000. Why? Unfortunately GM just followed the trend. They didn't force people to buy trucks. Hopefully we can get a Camaro people will buy, and an hot Impala off the same platform.

I wish I had gotten to see the show :( , sounds like it would have been interesting to see.

David

http://www.leftlanenews.com/2006/04/02/breaking-gm-previews-2008-cadillac-cts/

From what I can see from these pics, that Cadillac is going to be one slick ride :D .

David

So is there still some big news coming down at New York this week?