Can we dump the engine covers?

And get some good looking engines in the next Camaro?

The Silverado SST concept had a beautifully done LSx engine. I can't find any images of it though.

I remember it had polished C5R valve covers with the coils moved to the back of the engine.
No "beauty cover" required.

Given GM are looking to save costs, why not delete engine covers, period?

When profitability is restored, maybe GM might look into bringing out some decent covers?

Please do! If I get sick of looking at the engine (can't imagine that I would....) I can close the hood. We don't need a piece of plastic hiding the engine to make it look good under the hood.

I dunno, I think the one on my GTP looks pretty good......

http://image06.webshots.com/6/3/70/37/162037037hNstOG_ph.jpg

I don't know, 4th gen LS1s look horrible under the hood. Yeah the intake looks cool, but other than that all you see is hoses wires, and coils. I guess if things were tucked away it would look alot better, but there is very limited space in the 4th gen.

Most of the covers are for NVH purposes.

If you don't like the covers, it takes 5 seconds to pop them off. Coil relocation kits are readily available.

i agree. lets get rid of them id prefer to see the engine when i pop the hood

LS1 is an ugly engine. I believe they ran out of time and resources to clean it up. I don't mind the looks personally, but in the Corvette with the covers it looks much nicer.

Covers now a days are a different story. They seem to cover the whole dang engine compartment! Maybe they should just dump the hood and keep the engine cover instead. :p

LS1 is an ugly engine. I believe they ran out of time and resources to clean it up. I don't mind the looks personally, but in the Corvette with the covers it looks much nicer.

Covers now a days are a different story. They seem to cover the whole dang engine compartment! Maybe they should just dump the hood and keep the engine cover instead. :p

i dont really mind the covers like the vettes and gtos have but things like this are just absurd:
http://media.popularmechanics.com/images/lg_LexusEngine_lg.jpg

http://www.autodeadline.com/detail?source=&mid=WKA2004010459546&mime=JPG

If you don't like the covers, it takes 5 seconds to pop them off. Coil relocation kits are readily available.

That's not really the point.

I don't like whole engine covers either, ones like the vette are ok in my book, they make things a little cleaner looking, but I can't stand the ones like on the CTS-V.
One of the first things I did to my LT1 Caprice was remove the huge silencer on top of the engine also known as the homeplate. I went for a while without anything and then later got a Corvette LT1 cover kit.

I liked it when intakes took on an almost work of art look to them, like back in the 80s with the TPI vette and IROC-Z engines, and the Taurus SHO engine.

http://www.autodeadline.com/detail?source=&mid=WKA2004010459546&mime=JPG

That's a bad example. There is no way that is production feasible.

My truck has an engine cover, and I have another theory as to why the manufacturers are so into them these days: everything is plastic.

With plastic intakes and fuel rails, all of the associated plumbing that has to go on top of the engine ends up looking less than what gearheads consider cool, so they plop some piece of plastic on there to hide the mess.

With a few exceptions (L98, Taurus SHO) few engine compartments have looked very cool since all of the smog systems and attendant vacuum lines and whatnot started cluttering things up in the early 70's, IMO.

That's a bad example. There is no way that is production feasible.
You took the words right out of my mouth.

I actually think engine covers look cool. But then I am a hot rodder at heart.

You took the words right out of my mouth.

I actually think engine covers look cool. But then I am a hot rodder at heart.

That makes no sense to me. What is it about a chintzy, injection molded, piece of plastic, hiding your engine....that makes you a 'hot rodder'?

That's a bad example. There is no way that is production feasible.

Maybe not, but that is one good looking motor IMO. There are lots of good looking production engines as well.

That makes no sense to me. What is it about a chintzy, injection molded, piece of plastic, hiding your engine....that makes you a 'hot rodder'?

Have you looked under the hood of a show hot rod recently? The majority of them have custom engine covers... unless they're a "resto-rod" and customized to reflect a certain period in hot rodding.

Back in the day, this type of customization would be referred as "sano" or "sanitizing" the engine bay. Many guys like the "less clutter" look.

Back in the day, this type of customization would be referred as "sano" or "sanitizing" the engine bay. Many guys like the "less clutter" look.


I'd much rather see a beautiful 'sano' engine (whether it's SBC, Flat Head or Ferrari Colombo V12), than a 'sanitized' engine cover.

They just need to package the engine well like the GTO. Don't make the bay look so cluttered.

They just need to package the engine well like the GTO. Don't make the bay look so cluttered.

They need to do more than just that. GTO still hides the engine under a plastic cover.

Al was right. Engine covers lower NVH by a few decibels. It does help with the public, and makes the engine look "cleaner." I am all for it, and I was the engineer that had to deal with all of the negatives. They are a bitch to package under and around.

Al was right. Engine covers lower NVH by a few decibels. .

That doesn't make me like them better not one bit.

I like the Vette/GTO covers.

The ones that cover everything suck

The one piece engine covers rob horsepower... they trap engine heat so bad... forces the IAT temp high which causes the PCM to pull timing.

That doesn't make me like them better not one bit.
It should. Lower engine nvh could allow a louder intake, which increases HP. Cosmetics and lower nvh also make those "other 95%" buy cars.

I would also like to see some data that engine covers make a real difference in UNDERHOOD temperatures. That is what really matters. I could provide data otherwise, but then I wouldn't have a job...

I would also like to see some data that engine covers make a real difference in UNDERHOOD temperatures. That is what really matters. I could provide data otherwise, but then I wouldn't have a job...

Depends on where you measure it. Average temperature I wouldn't be so concerned with, but if the cover makes the intake manifold soak up heat, that's not such a good thing. That may not be such an issue with composite intakes, but many engines (like the HFV6) still have aluminum intakes.

Depends on where you measure it. Average temperature I wouldn't be so concerned with, but if the cover makes the intake manifold soak up heat, that's not such a good thing. That may not be such an issue with composite intakes, but many engines (like the HFV6) still have aluminum intakes.
The intake manifold does see around 5-10C increase in temp in localized areas. It obviously varies by engine and vehicle. This can be more than made up for in tuning if need be. On the other hand, you can also see a 3-5 decibel DECREASE in engine noise at different RPM's. And most importantly, it decreases the bad noises (esthetically).

I think this is one of those topics that the "performance at all costs" personality of this board rears its ugly head.

GM - Don't listen to us on this. We do not know what's best for us...

I'd be very happy if the Camaro engine covers looked as good as these
http://pontiac.jbcarpages.com/GTO/2004/Bilder/2004%20Pontiac%20GTO%20Engine2.jpg

Engine covers cut down on noise and also cut down on the high cost associated with making an engine look good underneath by just using a single section of plastic to make it look even nicer to the average car buyer. It's also nice to not have to detail the engine bay constantly but rather just wipe the cover down and call it a day.

I've seen pics of LS1s with nice valve covers and relocated coil packs, and I think that they can look very good... as good as any other small block. I'd love to see GM yank the coil packs off the valve covers and use a nice looking valve cover.

The NVH arguements, as valid as they probably are, still don't seem that important to me. GM had no problem keeping the engine bay of thirdgens and LT1s quiet. Build the right exhaust, and the noise won't be heard anyway. :p

Its a musclecar, you wanna hear all the noise! One thing about TPI cars is that you can sometimes hear the injectors ticking at idle, they're pretty loud.

Its a musclecar, you wanna hear all the noise! One thing about TPI cars is that you can sometimes hear the injectors ticking at idle, they're pretty loud.

And TPI cars have a good looking motor....

I've seen pics of LS1s with nice valve covers and relocated coil packs, and I think that they can look very good... as good as any other small block. I'd love to see GM yank the coil packs off the valve covers and use a nice looking valve cover.



Exactly what I'd like to see.

Its a musclecar, you wanna hear all the noise! One thing about TPI cars is that you can sometimes hear the injectors ticking at idle, they're pretty loud.

On a musclecar I wanna hear a nice exhaust noise - I don't wanna hear racket from the motor itself - exhaust noise is an icon of musclecars. Engine noise is an icon of poorly engineered, rough around the edges, motors. I know that's not what it always is - but perception is reality.

GM had no problem keeping the engine bay of thirdgens and LT1s quiet. Build the right exhaust, and the noise won't be heard anyway. :p

Are the standards in the automotive industry the same as they were in 1986?

The 5th gen is not just an evolution of the 3rd or 4th gen. We are looking at a virtually completely different car with respect to refinement. The ability to have this increased refinement, along with the snap your neck performance that we yearn, at price comparable to 3rd and 4th gens will make it the best pony/muscle car ever produced.

And if you don't like 'em (if they do appear), take the f'ing things off...

And if you don't like 'em (if they do appear), take the f'ing things off...

Yeah, but then you've got an ugly motor underneath......which was the original point when I started this thread.

This topic reminds me of something
05 Mustang's pre production engine, w/ cover.
http://www.atlanticsportscars.com/cars/05_mustang_engine.jpg
vs production
http://ford.jbcarpages.com/Mustang/2005/Bilder/2005%20Ford%20Mustang%20GT%204.6l%20V8%20Engine.jp g
pic to big to direct link to.

Also compare CTS-V to GTO
CTS-V
http://images.autobytel.com/view/aic/CADILLAC/CTS-V/sdn/usa_2005_cadillac_cts-v_sdn_4_x_indrvreng_x.jpg

http://www2.uol.com.br/bestcars/carros/saloes/la03/gto-motor.jpg
Which one do you prefer?

Buy 5th gen, remove cover, relocate coil packs, and add engraved powder coated vlave covers that someone makes locally. No worries. I could give two s**** about NHV.

I think the GTO is one of the better compromises betweening covering stuff up and leaving it naked.

This topic reminds me of something
05 Mustang's pre production engine, w/ cover.
http://www.atlanticsportscars.com/cars/05_mustang_engine.jpg
vs production
http://ford.jbcarpages.com/Mustang/2005/Bilder/2005%20Ford%20Mustang%20GT%204.6l%20V8%20Engine.jp g
pic to big to direct link to.




The production Stang looks best because it looks like an engine compartment with an engine in it.

I like the new Stang and GTO's engine bays the best, going by those pics.

I'd like to see the 5th gen look something like the GTO, though. If I had to pick.

It might be worth mentioning that almost any engine cover can be removed in 5 minutes or less; so if it really bothers you, remove it. Tada; bare engine. Just like you like it.

Far easier than expecting people who DO want an engine cover to custom fabricate one.:p

And TPI cars have a good looking motor....

So true.

It might be worth mentioning that almost any engine cover can be removed in 5 minutes or less; so if it really bothers you, remove it. Tada; bare engine. Just like you like it.



No problem. Just give us a good looking engine.

Engine covers give the look of just a cleaner design when done right. Its more about pleasing the viewer and attracting those types. I think it will deffinatly be needed for V6 buyers. I would imagne that we would see something along the lines as the "valve covers" like on the GTO and Corvette, close to the concept's engine cover. What would be nice if on the cover, they put HP and displacment like they used to do on air cleaners, in that red lettering and black background...just a thought.

There's no way to make an LS* engine look great. I don't belive GM is going to invest the extra time and energy in relocating the coil packs someplace else under the hood. IMO, the GTO covers are the best compromise.

Mustang's underhood looks good.

There's no way to make an LS* engine look great. ......

Oh really.....;)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v494/MecomRacer/My%201963%20Grand%20Sport%20Tribute/a066.jpg

Nice job Doug.:bow:

I prefer function over form. The engine cover should be the hood.:)

Doug - now that's what I'm talkin' about!

Nice job Doug.:bow:

I prefer function over form. The engine cover should be the hood.:)


That's Mark's car... "Mecom Racer" on other boards....his car is KILLER!!:bow:

No problem. Just give us a good looking engine.

Sounds like you want coil relocation and nice valve covers from the factory. That sounds more expensive and maybe a little more work on the assembly line than just slapping some FRCs over the mess.

I'd like what you're suggesting too, but would it really help sell more cars? If not, why spend money on it when it's easy enough to do on your own with aftermarket pieces?

Also, as pointed out, if it helps with NVH, would you give up a more aggressive stock cam to help quiet things down to make up for the lack of FRCs?

Honestly I don't really care what the stupid engine looks like, as long as it's affordable and runs like a scalded ape.

Now having said that I wouldn't mind covers, this could be the first time the Camaro actually gets some covers from the factory and everyone wants to kill them already. The LTx and LSx Vettes have had covers while the Fbodies have not, I'd rather have the Vette covers than not, but really it's a minor minor point to worry about.

The question is how much more are you ready to add to the cost of the engine and car to make it pretty?

The cover is only on as a cheap way to hide a mass of wires and black engine. It also remove engine noise in some cars like mt Comp G.

With how GM wants to price this car the price of a cover can be a important choice here on base price and keeping cost low. I know with the questions Scott is asking those at his get togethers on what we want and and what we can live without all factor in to cost. If you get a expensive cover you may have to tlive without something else.

Covers are one thing the aftermarket has not really addressed well. There is a big market and a lot of money to be made. Only a few Vette part have been made so if anyone is looking to get into a new line here you are.

GM has to look and figure of the many who will buy a Camaro how many will care wha the engine looks like. If they sell more V6 engines than v8 Most will never check the oil let alone look at the engine or worry about it appearance.

I can understand people here being concerned about the cover but in the outside world how many are going to care?

Have you looked under the hood of a show hot rod recently? The majority of them have custom engine covers... unless they're a "resto-rod" and customized to reflect a certain period in hot rodding.

Back in the day, this type of customization would be referred as "sano" or "sanitizing" the engine bay. Many guys like the "less clutter" look.


Oh really? I go to hundreds of car shows every year. I rarely see a "custom" engine cover on a BBC or Pontiac or Flat head Ford, do you?

I like the carbon fiber hood liner!

http://home.comcast.net/~fredl12/5thgen_023.jpg

The question is how much more are you ready to add to the cost of the engine and car to make it pretty?

The cover is only on as a cheap way to hide a mass of wires and black engine. It also remove engine noise in some cars like mt Comp G.

With how GM wants to price this car the price of a cover can be a important choice here on base price and keeping cost low. I know with the questions Scott is asking those at his get togethers on what we want and and what we can live without all factor in to cost. If you get a expensive cover you may have to tlive without something else.

Covers are one thing the aftermarket has not really addressed well. There is a big market and a lot of money to be made. Only a few Vette part have been made so if anyone is looking to get into a new line here you are.

GM has to look and figure of the many who will buy a Camaro how many will care wha the engine looks like. If they sell more V6 engines than v8 Most will never check the oil let alone look at the engine or worry about it appearance.

I can understand people here being concerned about the cover but in the outside world how many are going to care?

I'm not sure that it would cost much - if anything - to tidy up the engine compartment.

A couple of dollars here and there make a differance on a high volume car.

It really adds up when you take a could bucks a part over a handfull of parts on a car.

Cost cutting was very tight on the Solstice to keep it at a base price of $19,900. I expect Lutz is hard on them to keep the price down on this car too.

Scott pointed out and asked how important the leather smell in the car is. It cost monry to develope the right smell and add it to the leather. He pointed out that the leather smell you get just does not happen.

If they are asking of the importance of the leather smell I think they are really counting the pennys to retain cost.

This time Lutz has not state a price publicly like he did on the Solstice. This really added pressure and frustration for many at GM.

If you note the story on the new Holden cost cutting is a very big part on that car. Many of the parts are going to be imported and they are wondering how it will effect the home built idea of the new Zeta in August down under.

Keep the price on Zeta is very important from tail lights to engine cover and not comprimise the cars quality.

I think it would be great if they did make the engine look good without any extra covers. However, the LSx has been around for coming on 10 years now. If it was cheap and easy to make it look good without some added plastic, i'm pretty sure we would have seen it done by now.

First there is coil relocation. Sure a bracket is pretty cheap, but it also adds a step to the assembly line since the spark plug wires have to be connected AFTER the engine is dropped in the body.

Painted / polished valve covers cost more than as cast plain jane.

Extra attention to the wiring harness and how it connects to the injectors and sensors would also be key.

Then there's the NVH question. Extra hood insulation?

A pretty engine is definitely nowhere near free.

A couple of dollars here and there make a differance on a high volume car.

It really adds up when you take a could bucks a part over a handfull of parts on a car.



You can always subtract the cost of "beauty covers".

Why not make engine covers an extra cost option on the base models? Sounds ridiculous, maybe?

Why not make engine covers an extra cost option on the base models? Sounds ridiculous, maybe?That wouldn't be such a bad idea. You can pretty much assume that GM would have the holes there in all of their engines anyway for the bolts for the cover, but if you really did care enough (and there certainly are people that do!) you can get the extra option.

Me? I'd go without it, and maybe buy it on eBay a little later if I did care.

You know its getting a little boring around here when there are 5 pages of debating about something as trivial as engine covers. lol. FWIW, I could go either way.

With Dodge/Chrysler showing off some cool, bare, raw engines, I would not doubt it if the Camaro had no engine covers.

I'm biased but I think the GTO engine covers are good look. Just replace 'GTO' with Camaro, Chevrolet, or even Bowties.

Nice bump. April? :D

Simple 'Camaro' covers

http://img106.imageshack.us/img106/915/camarocoversjb0.th.png (http://img106.imageshack.us/my.php?image=camarocoversjb0.png)

FWIW, on the Mustang boards there was much complaining that the production car didn't come with the cover like the concept. Now, an aftermarket supplier makes them, and I also think the factory is starting to put them on some models now as well.

It's funny to me, it's just the opposite over there!

FWIW, I like the GTO type covers....and if I have money to burn, I'll make mine more individual and customize it myself, adding polished covers and relocating the coils, etc.

....that's what real hot rodders do anyway, right? ;)

I completely understand Charlie's point on this - and I'm with him. Engines were things of beauty and pride once upon a time and they should be again.

I would pay for such an option.

Being proud of your product has an intangible value and indicates a level of quality that a cheapo plastic cover never could.

As long as it doesn't hold in heat, the extra noise reduction isn't bad. Honestly i'm not one to go staring at the engine so i really don't care what it looks like as long as it runs. heck, that's what the majority (V6) buyers won't even see under the hood unless they have to check the oil or have a problem.

The engine covers NEED TO GO! Nothing like going to a car show and seeing a nice LS1 with the hood up. Then you take a look and see nothing but a few black tubes under there.

GM has the time to develop all sorts of new gadgets and options over the years. A nice looking engine compartment should be easy to do. That was one of my beefs with the C5 Corvette. They made the hoods cover the sides of the engine and then covered the engine itself with a cover.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v201/Monobloc/50d1e420.jpg
http://www.netmatrix.com/eci/c5%20corvette/2003%20Corvette%20C5%20roadster%20engine.jpg

I think the 1st engine looks better. Some of us like to be able to work on our own engines too (LT1 Camaros ARGH)

http://web.nmsu.edu/~mps/images/engine%201.JPG


http://www.carnuttv.com/images/roadtest_images/2004_images/2004_pontiac_gto_front_engine_3.JPG


:shrug: I kinda like the covers... my guess is that average Joe does too.

Those GTO covers sure look an awful lot like the Camaro covers in robvas' post above.

I really like the fuel rail covers. They add some nice contrast to the engine bay. With the way engines are made now as far as all the electronics and emissions, it's a nice balance. I really dislike when companies take it too far though and all you can see when you pop the hood is a sea of plastic.

The GTO and Vette set ups are perfect IMO.

Just thought you would like to see mine....only difference is I changed from to red with the new engine. The Vette got totaled driving under a truck, Ripped off the top of the car, so now I have the engine in mine.

http://www.cardomain.com/ride/335896/2

I've never minded engine covers, but the GTO covers look like they're pretending to be an aluminum valve cover, but they stand high enough to see the stuff underneath that they are designed to cover.

http://www.cardomain.com/ride/335896/2

That brunette on the right is smokin hot.:D

Why skip engine covers? They're trying to make a 09 model that sells, not a 3rd gen to rusts. If you don't like engine covers... simply pull them off when you get home and stuff them in your closet.

.......They trying to make a 09 model that sells....... If you don't like engien covers... simply pull them off when you get home and stuff them in your closet.


:yes:

Why skip engine covers? They're trying to make a 09 model that sells, not a 3rd gen to rusts. If you don't like engine covers... simply pull them off when you get home and stuff them in your closet.

You miss the point completely. If the engine is good looking, you don't need the cover. It's not just a matter of simply removing them and stuffing them in your closet. And what that has to do with a new '09 vs a rusting 3rd gen - I have no idea.

You miss the point completely. If the engine is good looking, you don't need the cover. It's not just a matter of simply removing them and stuffing them in your closet. And what that has to do with a new '09 vs a rusting 3rd gen - I have no idea.

I was implying that previously Camaro's had just been a knockdown from another well known sports car... this time why not do it right and put just as much quality into it as the topend model? All the other GM cars have engine covers.... so why skip out on them this time? Doesn't make sense too.

That's why these things failed the first time. People don't want to pay $$$$ forless quality. Which is why people brought the mustangs and continue to do so, because they offered more for a better price. If GM hasn't figured that out yet, I'm sure the Camaro will fail again... And also how would you know about how hard it's going to be to remove the engine covers off a car that no one has seen yet? We don't even know what the final design will look like.

I was implying that previously Camaro's had just been a knockdown from another well known sports car... this time why not do it right and put just as much quality into it as the topend model? All the other GM cars have engine covers.... so why skip out on them this time? Doesn't make sense too.

That's why these things failed the first time. People don't want to pay $$$$ forless quality. Which is why people brought the mustangs and continue to do so, because they offered more for a better price. If GM hasn't figured that out yet, I'm sure the Camaro will fail again... And also how would you know about how hard it's going to be to remove the engine covers off a car that no one has seen yet? We don't even know what the final design will look like.

There may be some HVH benefits to engine covers, but on LSx engines, they are simply a cheap, field expedient way to cover up an ugly engine. I say, clean up the engine with nicer valve covers, relocated coil packs, etc., and sh!tcan those "beauty covers".

personally i like seeing the raw engine. Even if its not all dressed up it looks good. Better than being all snazzed up with some cheap plastic. just MHO

engine covers are a definite NVH concern, since plastic intakes are NOISY

i dont really mind the covers like the vettes and gtos have but things like this are just absurd:
http://media.popularmechanics.com/images/lg_LexusEngine_lg.jpg

I wonder why they even bother putting a hood on these new cars?

I wonder why they even bother putting a hood on these new cars?



That's a Lexus Luxury car. Thier goal is to make the engine bay look just as elegant as the exterior/interior, so why not follow that concept into the engin compartment?. The average person who isn't a car enthusiest isn't attracted by the mechanical looks of an engine, so why not dress it up to make it more appealing to thier market? I like engine covers, they clean the engine bay up and make it look more modern. But who wants to look at a mess of tangled wires and hoses? look at how sloppy the LS1 Camaro looks, when compaired to the Corvettes engine bay. The camaro looks cheap, trashy, and less appealing. I don't think that's going to attract potential buyers, if you want this car to survive "again" in todays competitive market. Remember the Camaro was only reintroduced to help pull GM out a hole.

I completely agree with you. But I just think they take it to an extreme. I mean, even the battery is covered up. Why don't they just make the engine and intake manifold itself nice looking like the new Hemi engine or the old L98 engine?