High Performance Pontiac - 2008 Trans Am Concept - The Goat Takes a Vacation

Interesting article:
http://highperformancepontiac.com/hotnews/hppp_0607_2008_pontiac_trans_am_concept/

Deja vu 1974--gas prices are high and the GTO is once again cancelled for the following year. Buick-Pontiac-GMC General Manager John Larson broke the news to dealers in a video clip on Tuesday, February 21, 2006. He says the cancellation of the GTO is due to '07 airbag standards that cannot be met with the current car. We're sure it didn't hurt that the GTO sold only 15,728 units in 2004 and just 11,069 in 2005, while it was scheduled for production of 18,000 for those two years. The possible peripheral reasons are many--some cite a snubbing by the GTO faithful, others say it was too expensive, and still more lament the body styling. While we all can be Monday morning quarterbacks, the fact remains that Pontiac once again will be without a rear-drive V-8 performance car by 2007. But for how long? Just over a week after the cancellation notice, we seemingly got an answer.

General Motors Vice President for Global Product Development Bob Lutz stated during the Geneva motor show that a new GTO would arrive based on the new Camaro's and Holden Commodore's Zeta platform in late 2008, as reported by AutoWeek.

HPP contacted Jim Hopson, Pontiac GMC Manager of Communications for confirmation. On March 6, 2006, Jim stated, "Nothing has been confirmed yet. There is nothing on the production schedule, but Bob Lutz's comments are very intriguing, and we have been working toward this. However, we have nothing to announce at this point."

Possibly, all will be confirmed by the time you read this magazine. Our questions, which remain unanswered at this time, are as follows:

* Will the GTO be released at the same time as the Camaro?
* Hopson shared that one of the problems GM was facing bringing the Camaro and GTO to market was the cost of its proposed platform Zeta. "It was too expensive in its original configuration to keep the retail price point where it needed to be, so the program was put on hold." We heard rumors of a possible Zeta-Lite based on design changes to Zeta that would provide cost reductions. Will the new GTO, Camaro, and Commodore be built on this Zeta-Lite platform?
* Will the GTO be built in the United States, or Australia alongside the Commodore sedan?
* Which engine(s) will power the GTO, and how will its power rating compare with the Camaro?
* And what of a rumored Firebird rebirth?

Check the various enthusiast and auto-related news Web sites, and it's claimed the Camaro is on its way, and a Firebird won't be far behind. At Geneva, however, Lutz reportedly said no to reviving the Firebird. Are the Web sites getting accurate Deep Throat inside information, or is it simply wishful thinking directed toward the hope of a self-fulfilling prophecy? Time will tell.

Whatever the case, the current GTO is a great-performing car even if it hasn't sold well. When production ends, the performance division of GM will be lacking a model with a V-8 torturing the rear tires for two years. Currently, Ford can't build Mustangs fast enough, Dodge has the Charger and the Magnum on the road, and its Challenger concept is driving everyone crazy, much like the Camaro. As you can see, from a performance standpoint, Pontiac can ill afford not to field a competitive model should all these retro-performers continue to grow in popularity.

Despite Lutz's current comments on the likelihood of a new Firebird, aficionados of the model who have held out hope for a resurrection since the F-body's demise in 2002 see the Camaro as a great opportunity do reintroduce the legendary ponycar.

HPP reader Kevin Morgan has provided us with his take on a modern-day Trans Am should GM decide to change its corporate mind, and Kevin's illustration has been popular fodder for hobbyists. "I honestly never dreamed that these drawings would create such a stir." Kevin told us, regarding the Internet buzz over his series of drawings on www.transamcountry.com. "I drew them because of my love for the Trans Am and love of drawing. I just wish we could get our Firebirds and Trans Ams back!" Perhaps if we yell loud enough, GM will oblige, or will the Pontiac-buying masses be satisfied instead with an all-new GTO? What are your thoughts?

Could this be the rumored big news that is going to be announced this weekend at the New York Autoshow? In a recent thread, someone mentioned the news will be as big as the unveiling of the Camaro.

I wish. But it seems unlikely to me.

Does anyone remember the 'future looks brighter AND brighter' comment a while back by?

"Deja vu 1974--gas prices are high and the GTO is once again cancelled for the following year. Buick-Pontiac-GMC General Manager John Larson broke the news to dealers in a video clip on Tuesday, February 21, 2006. He says the cancellation of the GTO is due to '07 airbag standards that cannot be met with the current car. "


Wow this article is just out there. Knowing the GTO is cancelled due to the airbag problem but just have to make a hit about gas prices.
Its been said over..and over...and over...and over...Firebird isnt comming back...not in 2008...probably not even 2013. Lutz said it aint comming back.
The pontiac enthusiast will have to move over to Camaro...or jump on GTO/g8. I wish they could bring back the firebird, but its not cost efficient now...so its gone.

The next GTO is being worked on....

It will be on Global RWD with the Camaro....

The Trans Am/ Firebird is STILL DEAD.....

Come on people this is all over the forum....

Lutz said it aint comming back.

Actually, the last time I heard anyone ask Lutz about the firebird (at NAIAS 2006) he gave a "we'll see" answer than a definite no.

It was an interesting article none the less.

Take a subject that has been beaten to a pulp, write an article gets people's hopes going despite the fact that it's been already definitively answered. Many times.

Scott has said, I've learned, and this has been proven 100s of times, just because it's in a magazine doesn't make it true. Late last fall, Automobile magazine stated that Camaro was not coming back. Early last year (when the Camaro was coming together) a magazine "quoted" Bob Lutz (completely out of context as it turned out) that Camaro wasn't coming back. Nevermind that their actual position was that it was on "hiatus", and the fact that no one was allowed to talk about Camaro.

This site (along with CheersandGears and GMI) are months ahead of the car mags. Some of those guys actually come to sites like this instead of using their own resources. Like everyone else, alot of them go to the wrong sites, listen to the wrong people, and come up with the wrong conclusions.



Once again (for about the 1001 time) Firebird isn't in the cards.
Even though I'd love to see a modern 70s version, and it's one of my all time favorite cars, Trans Am is NEVER coming back! :no: :no: :no:

Pontiac's General Manager has said Firebird isn't coming back. Bob Lutz has said "Firebird's day has past", and again just recently said Firebird isn't in the cards.

Everyone up to Scott (even Lutz once touched on where he though GM went wrong on the F-cars said something about this) has talked about how Firebird took up a disproportional amount of resources of the F-body program, & how Firebird essentially canibalized potential Camaro sales. If you look at the sales of the $30K+ GTO and look at the sales of the $30K+ Firebird models, seems GTO sold more.



It's been described in detail many times why the name Trans Am has about as much chance returning to life as a passenger on the last space shuttle Columbia flight. GM doesn't own that name & had to pay the SCCA for each Trans Am they sold. They have no intention of going down that road again.... GM even tried to get rid of the name in 1983.

Firebird (to date) isn't coming back. This is from every comment coming from GM including the guy who decides what cars get approved.

Trans Am (especially at a penny counting, cash difficient GM) doesn't have a prayer. Assuming $100 per car and 20,000 Trans Ams sold per year, that means GM is giving up $2 million per year. Given a choice of spending $2 million per year on a name that can be easily subsituted, or using the cash on better interior materials, or taking the money to to plug their losses, using the money on the name is the loser.

And no..... they can't use the initials either.

Just to show how bad the press is. The new Motor Trend has the 2009 Camaro vs the 2009 Mustang. They did a simlulation with what they think are the powertrains that will be in the cars. The funny part is they have no clue.

Magazines are advetising driven and in these days and times want to hook readers with the cheapest easiest storys they can produce. Their budgets are cut to the bone and integrity has traded off to the almighty $$$. The print media in general is in trouble these days and with the internet are a day late and a dollar short on news.

Trust what guionM has posted as he has given you as much as your gong to know this side of Lutz and Scott S. He keeps up on this and knows as much as your going to find.

FIREBIRD RIP good friend, you job is done.

What a great job! :rolleyes:

Spend 20 minutes scanning some threads on enthusiast websites. Write a story about what you've found. Get paid for it.


:tired:

Once upon a time there was a thing called journalism.

The people who practiced this profession were called journalists.

These "journalists" actually used to have real sources that divulged interesting - if somewhat sketchy - info.

This info would then be used to write engaging stories..........

What a great job! :rolleyes:

Spend 20 minutes scanning some threads on enthusiast websites. Write a story about what you've found. Get paid for it.


:tired:

Once upon a time there was a thing called journalism.

The people who practiced this profession were called journalists.

These "journalists" actually used to have real sources that divulged interesting - if somewhat sketchy - info.

This info would then be used to write engaging stories..........


OOooooo, and how did it end??? :D

The next GTO is being worked on....

...

Define "being worked on".

Define "being worked on".

You have a PM :)

It's been described in detail many times why the name Trans Am has about as much chance returning to life as a passenger on the last space shuttle Columbia flight. GM doesn't own that name & had to pay the SCCA for each Trans Am they sold. They have no intention of going down that road again.... GM even tried to get rid of the name in 1983.

Firebird (to date) isn't coming back. This is from every comment coming from GM including the guy who decides what cars get approved.

Trans Am (especially at a penny counting, cash difficient GM) doesn't have a prayer. Assuming $100 per car and 20,000 Trans Ams sold per year, that means GM is giving up $2 million per year. Given a choice of spending $2 million per year on a name that can be easily subsituted, or using the cash on better interior materials, or taking the money to to plug their losses, using the money on the name is the loser.

And no..... they can't use the initials either.

um, I dont now of any Trans am owner who owuldn't pay 100 more for the T/A name. especially when they spend 30k on them. You act like Gm wouldn't pass the costs to the customer.

and how does this company get away with the Trans Am name? http://www.transamtruck.com/mainpage.htm

Sorry but that Trans Am 'undoes' a lot of the good work done on Camaro if that image is any guide. You'd have to ask if its necessary to have the same car albeit with a different (ugly) skin.

I dont see why they (GM) wants to put out another GTO so fast, considering the latest installment was a flop. (yes we all know what a wonderfully performing car it was , but it didnt sell.) I wish they would at least consider exploring a Firebird (that names is ok right?) alternative , before tacking in the last few nails of the pontiac coffin.

I dont see why they (GM) wants to put out another GTO so fast, considering the latest installment was a flop. (yes we all know what a wonderfully performing car it was , but it didnt sell.) I wish they would at least consider exploring a Firebird (that names is ok right?) alternative , before tacking in the last few nails of the pontiac coffin.

I have to disagree. The GTO would offer a slightly bigger Muscle car option and not be in direct competition to the Camaro. More than just a rebadge. A little distance between Chevy and Pontiac. I think its smart to test the waters with Camaro by itself. GM knows what Pontiac and Camaro sold in relation to Mustang. They know what Mustang is selling now. Then they can see what Camaro does in competition to Challenger and Mustang without having to worry about a 3rd competitor from within. Camaros never existed without Transam Im interested to see what its full potential is.

I think if the market demands it after a few years GM could certainly jump on a Firebird and still have a pony car competitor in the mean time. Just my opinion.

If the Camaro and Impala are going to be as good as we're lead to believe, I can imagine the tough sell a new GTO would have with The Board.

If the Camaro and Impala are going to be as good as we're lead to believe, I can imagine the tough sell a new GTO would have with The Board.

So that leads to the question.....

What do you do with Pontiac?

They need something......

So that leads to the question.....

What do you do with Pontiac?

They need something......

Well, lots of things.

But on internet enthusiast's sites, if it's not an extensive line of LS7 equipped RWD coupes and RWD sedans.....which BTW, make Cadillac, BMW, Corvette, Ferrari all look silly, AND which are priced at NO MORE than a G6.......the you are a heretic. So nevermind.....

Even though I'd love to see a modern 70s version, and it's one of my all time favorite cars, Trans Am is NEVER coming back! :no: :no: :no:

Never say never. In recent years, the SCCA has been licensing the name to CART as a support series. Back in 2002, when the Trans Am series was still strong, the SCCA could demand a significant licensing fee for the name. However, the series's popularity has waned. CART chose not to renew the license, and so, Trans Am currently does not have a racing series for the name.

http://www.scca.com/News/News.asp?Ref=491

There are limitless possibilities here. For example:

SCCA could partner with GM to create a new series. The SCCA could then cheaply license the "Trans Am" name in exchange for the free advertising potential of plastering the name on thousands of automobiles.

Or: SCCA could sell the trademark to GM.

Or: The SCCA could let its trademark lapse, and GM could pick it up.

Just some thoughts,
Randy

http://www.scca.com/News/News.asp?Ref=491


Whaddya say we all chip in and buy it ourselves. I'm not kidding!

um, I dont now of any Trans am owner who owuldn't pay 100 more for the T/A name. especially when they spend 30k on them. You act like Gm wouldn't pass the costs to the customer.

and how does this company get away with the Trans Am name? http://www.transamtruck.com/mainpage.htm

Repeating:
Seems more $30K+ GTOs were sold than $30K+ Trans Ams."
Lesser Firebirds essentally canabalized Camaro sales.

Never say never. In recent years, the SCCA has been licensing the name to CART as a support series. Back in 2002, when the Trans Am series was still strong, the SCCA could demand a significant licensing fee for the name. However, the series's popularity has waned. CART chose not to renew the license, and so, Trans Am currently does not have a racing series for the name.

http://www.scca.com/News/News.asp?Ref=491

There are limitless possibilities here. For example:

SCCA could partner with GM to create a new series. The SCCA could then cheaply license the "Trans Am" name in exchange for the free advertising potential of plastering the name on thousands of automobiles.

Or: SCCA could sell the trademark to GM.

Or: The SCCA could let its trademark lapse, and GM could pick it up.

Just some thoughts,
Randy

Good thoughts. But till that happens, it's pretty safe to say "extremely NO.

I dont see why they (GM) wants to put out another GTO so fast, considering the latest installment was a flop. (yes we all know what a wonderfully performing car it was , but it didnt sell.) I wish they would at least consider exploring a Firebird (that names is ok right?) alternative , before tacking in the last few nails of the pontiac coffin.

4th gen f-body was a flop as well. Why make it again, right??

GTO sales picked up when scalping stopped. Also, GTO is selling about 15K out of 18K maximun capacity. Cobras ran about 9K and Mach1s rand about 7K.

Doesn't sound like a flop to me.

Good thoughts. But till that happens, it's pretty safe to say "extremely NO.



4th gen f-body was a flop as well. Why make it again, right??

GTO sales picked up when scalping stopped. Also, GTO is selling about 15K out of 18K maximun capacity. Cobras ran about 9K and Mach1s rand about 7K.

Doesn't sound like a flop to me.

What numbers did 4th gens sell? What about Mustang GT's of those years?

What numbers did 4th gens sell? What about Mustang GT's of those years?

GT sales were running about 55% depending on year. That's about 60-70,000 Mustang GT sales alone.

Record of 4th gen Camaro sales, including breakdowns are available on this site. Keep in mind, 2002 was an extended year (roughly from May 2001 to the end of August 2002... 15 months).

So that leads to the question.....

What do you do with Pontiac?

They need something......

And what a good question indeed.

One could argue that they have the Soltice, but beyond the Solstice, what else does Pontiac have?

Pontiac: "We build excitement". "The performance division of GM".

Pontiac is most definately not exciting, and nothing in their lineup screams excitement. Therefore, they must have a GTO. Minus the Soltice, the entire division is irrelevent. More than Saturn, Pontiac needs a jump start of something good.

And what a good question indeed.

One could argue that they have the Soltice, but beyond the Solstice, what else does Pontiac have?

Pontiac: "We build excitement". "The performance division of GM".

Pontiac is most definately not exciting, and nothing in their lineup screams excitement. Therefore, they must have a GTO. Minus the Soltice, the entire division is irrelevent. More than Saturn, Pontiac needs a jump start of something good.

Afew thousand GTO's per year are purely gingerbread. For Pontiac, it's all about the G6. Refine it. Sweeten it. Give it more sizzle.

Yes, the excitement/performance division needs to be based FWD.

I have no idea what Pontiac even menas anymore and the more comments I read on this board the less hope I have in it?

Pontiac based on the G6? Pleeeeeeeeeease........ :rolleyes:

Yes, the excitement/performance division needs to be based FWD.

That's it's bread and butter. To say otherwise, would be to be in denial. Not saying there is no room for RWD at Pontiac. Solstice, I think, fits Pontiac very well. Perhaps a Zeta variant as well.

But on a scale of from 1 to 10, rating the importance of the G6 (all versions) vs a 12,000 unit per year GTO to Pontiac.....the GTO comes out somewhere around 0 to maybe a 3.

A quick look at the current line up….

G6- Cool little car but I’m having trouble seeing it being the bread winner of Pontiac

Solstice- They got this right, but I don’t see it as the halo car of Pontiac, just keep doing what their doing with this car…

Torrent- Needs to go, Pontiac shouldn’t be about ugly/ slow Sport Utes

GTO- Pontiac needs a V8 RWD Coupe, very refined and well performing, The excitement division needs and exciting car, I don’t care if it sells 10k a year, let it ride off of Zeta

Grand Prix- I like this cars line up, but it should be restyled soon, leave it FWD
What exactly does the future hold for Grand Prix since the w-body is dead soon? Zeta?

Vibe- Either it needs to go or step up to the plate, get restyled, and start fighting the new dodge Caliber…. Give it some cool looks and a real motor

SV6- Why? Do they even sell any of these? My god, nothing about performance say minivan to me…..uugh…and its sooooo ugly…..

I wouldn’t mind seeing a larger performance sedan too……

But even after these thoughts I’m still having a hard time seeing the direction Pontiac should go in….

GTO- Pontiac needs a V8 RWD Coupe, very refined and well performing, The excitement division needs and exciting car, I don’t car if it sells 10k a year, let it ride off of Zeta

….

You said a mouthful, right there, Stefan. As long as we realize that that's what such a GTO would be. It would be some gingerbread marketing sizzle for Pontiac....no more, no less. But unfortunately, virtually irrelevant from a product segment requirement point of view, especially as GM releases new Chevy/Caddy RWD's.


Pontiac's core products are and will remain to be, G6 and Solstice for the foreseeable future. Nothing should distract Pontiac from moving these two crucial pruducts forward.

GTO- I don’t car if it sells 10k a year,

SV6- Do they even sell any of these?




:lol:

That's it's bread and butter. To say otherwise, would be to be in denial. Not saying there is no room for RWD at Pontiac. Solstice, I think, fits Pontiac very well. Perhaps a Zeta variant as well.

But on a scale of from 1 to 10, rating the importance of the G6 (all versions) vs a 12,000 unit per year GTO to Pontiac.....the GTO comes out somewhere around 0 to maybe a 3.

They need a RSX Type S competitor yesterday

Ok I'll be open minded, so with G6 and Solstice where exactly does Pontiac fit in GM's over all plan? What is Pontiac's niche?

And trust me I don’t suffer from the Neanderthal mentality that only cars with RWD and V8s will sell.

I’m one of the guys on here that thinks a hi-po V6 would make a good mid level Camaro engine.

I a bit lost for words, I just don’t see the direction Pontiac is going in, what type of culture they are trying to build….

:lol:


Well my point with a low selling GTO, is that if it’s off of Zeta it could still prob be profitable due to the rest of the Zeta cars sales…..

So that leads to the question.....

What do you do with Pontiac?

They need something......
They die. And I buy a Nissan. :(

Ok I'll be open minded, so with G6 and Solstice where exactly does Pontiac fit in GM's over all plan? What is Pontiac's niche?

And trust me I don’t suffer from the Neanderthal mentality that only cars with RWD and V8s will sell.

I’m one of the guys on here that thinks a hi-po V6 would make a good mid level Camaro engine.

I a bit lost for words, I just don’t see the direction Pontiac is going in, what type of culture they are trying to build….

That would be an easy one.....without Saturn. But we do have Saturn, so here goes, and I really hate to use this term, but...Pontiac as a "youth brand".

Solstice is great going down the path it's already going down.

G6 needs more developement though. I'd like to see a version of the Solstice's DI turbo Ecotec for it. It would have a better family/brand tie-in with Solstice that way - plus 260 hp is only the beginning for that engine. Tune the chassis to put the hurt on MazdaSpeed6 and Altima SE-R.

Also, I'd like to see something like the Dodge Hornet concept for Pontiac. With - you guessed it - a 260-300hp turbo I4 as a top motor.....just like the rest of the family.

And make these products, not only cool, but very attainable.

Nissan, Mazda and Scion should be in Pontiac's crosshairs and nothing else. Focus the brand for that segment.

Well I had to post negatively because I had just got out of a final exam :)

An expanded G6 lineup would be great. They should run the gammit from the stylish-if-subtle look that they have now to a more dare I say ricey appearance package (that does not mean ginormous Pontiac nostrils though). It would have been nice if they could have put AWD on that platform. But even without that, they could have thrown in the turboed Ecotec which would have fit in like the 1.8T fit into the Jetta lineup between the base motor and the VR6.

Not that I would ever advocate an LS7 powered GTO for $5, I think Pontiac needs more than G6 variants especially if there is no viable way to make various Kappa derivatives. I think they could get by with a Kappa, the G6 line and Zeta. If a sedan and a coupe Zeta would not both work at Pontiac because whoever would whine about the coupe creating too much overlap, perhaps a quad-coupe could singlehandedly take the top spot. And of course there could be a certain three letter option code as the performance flagship. Anything other than that is just a waste of space for BPG. Although if they really wanted an entry level car, I would think they should do something a little more different than Cobalt and offer a hatch (in the same vein as the Golf) and the obligatory "hot-hatch" version.

Oh and I would see this Pontiac more as a competitor to Mazda than Scion. Scion really only competes with the lowest tiers of most the other brands.

Nissan, Mazda and Scion should be in Pontiac's crosshairs and nothing else. Focus the brand for that segment.


WOW:shock:

I cant believe I've never thought of that before, but it makes so much sense.....:bow:

Now I see where you are going with this and I totally agree...

That would probably work for Pontiac too...:thumb:

Once again (for about the 1001 time) Firebird isn't in the cards.
Even though I'd love to see a modern 70s version, and it's one of my all time favorite cars, Trans Am is NEVER coming back! :no: :no: :no:


Well, I guess that says it all. I agree with your statement but I'd put a time limit on it. Maybe 5 years or so before someone at GM comes up with a briliant idea to resurect the Firebird/Trans Am names. All it takes is new leadership at GM. What will happen when Bob retires? What if GM gets a new product guru who may be charged with beefing up Pontiac? Is it out of the question that person may think the greatest thing since the Camaro is a Firebird?

Second, if Ford decides to clone the Mustang and call it a Murcury Cougar and it sells decently, everyone will be saying GM missed the boat. Again!

I agree, it's unlikelyhood that we'll see a Firebird anytime soon but I wouldn't say "never".

i like the way the 'bird looks compared to the camaro, i say build 'em both, and build the gto and clone the goat and make a chevelle... i cant wait untill im in charge of gm. ha!

i like the way the 'bird looks compared to the camaro, i say build 'em both, and build the gto and clone the goat and make a chevelle... i cant wait untill im in charge of gm. ha!

They'd be in Chapter 11 in 6 hours.

Only 6? I gotta short that stock immediately!!

What were the Cobra (supercharged era) sales numbers, by my? Anyone have them?

Let the Trans Am die for ****'s sakes.

I wonder when these Firebird threads will start getting locked?

:death: :death: :death:

EDIT: And for when they do... thank you! (Since I won't be able to add that afterwards :p)

http://images.corvetteforum.com/images/smilies/beatdeadhorse5.gif

:eek: :eek: :eek: That horse isn't dead!!! I keep seeing one back hoof twitching!

That poor, poor animal :cry:

Just because its dead doesen't mean it defys the laws of physics. Its transferring the energy of the beating. :lol:

In any case, the informative pontiac talk kept this from being the worst thread ever.

Just because its dead doesen't mean it defys the laws of physics. Its transferring the energy of the beating. :lol:

Good call... I just got :Owned:

:(

:p

This thread title makes me angry.

Isnt there ALREADY a sticky outlining the difference between a "concept" and "something my cousin drew"?

Confusing the two should be a bannable offense.

atleast the thread isn't years old... only months.

No, GM stocks would soar after the Firebird was announced. ;)

They can just save the name until they make a 2+2 hardtop derivative of the Solstice...

At least these kinds of posts get people talking about the Firebird. I am always somewhat suprised by the ammount of guys on here that seem to absolutely hate the Firebird, and are glad it's dead.

I kind of doubt the total fbody sales would have been as great if the Firebird didn't exist. I guess the Camaro would have had more funding in a situation like that, so there is probably no way to know for sure.