5th Gen and zeta.. will it be a PIG?

Just like the GTO?

What do you think the curb weight will be?

Thanks

Oh man....what a can of worms....

Do some searching. It depends on who you talk to, but the only real good guess is that it will be heavier than the 4th Gen. :(

Just like the GTO?

What do you think the curb weight will be?

Thanks

Yep you just opened a can of worms. So I guess I'm up 1st. :)



First, have you driven a GTO? Do you know how it handles? Or are you just looking at a number and passing judgement?

Secondly, unless we are talking about something the weight of Tahoes, modern engineering and tires can make up for ALOT of weight. A BMW M5 is over 4,000 pounds (about the same as Charger Hemi & 300 pounds heavier than a GTO!).

Third, the 4th gen for it's size was a absolute featherweight at 3400 pounds with V8. Check other RWD cars that size. Even the much smaller, Chevy Cavalier sized BMW M3 weighs just over 3400 pounds.... and that's with a 6 cylinder! Even a Solstice weighs 3000 pounds.


If you want a modern car the size of the Camaro concept, and you want IRS, and you want a chassis capable of handling far more than 400 horsepower, and you want AC and power everything, and you don't want to pay through the nose by it using exotic metal, and you want to be safer driving it than you would be driving a '67 model, it's going to weigh some pounds.

A "Pig" refers to a heavy car that doesn't handle, and is sloppy. GTO by no streach of the imagination is a pig. Camaro isn't going to be either.


Next.

Where are Z284ever and Dan Baldwin? :)

Where are Z284ever and Dan Baldwin? :)

You troublemaker! ;) :lol:

want a nice light car buy a thirdgen.. the best camaro

If you want a modern car the size of the Camaro concept, and you want IRS, and you want a chassis capable of handling far more than 400 horsepower, and you want AC and power everything, and you don't want to pay through the nose by it using exotic metal, and you want to be safer driving it than you would be driving a '67 model, it's going to weigh some pounds.


Don't forget that if you want to sell it for road use in the U.S., it has to meet modern regulations requiring smart airbags, 30mph crash protection (and you really want it to do well on the IIHS and NHTSA 35mph tests too), etc. Also ABS brakes and some sort of traction control. These all require extra hardware, even if it's just a sensor. The sensor is connected via a wire, and wiring adds up. The expectation I hear for the new Zeta-Commodore is up by a couple of hundred pounds.

My guess is 3950 for the new GTO and 3850 for the Camaro.

A lady never tells. :lol:
*newest member of the super secret winky club*
If a Camaro was in the works, the Z/28 model probably isn't done being designed yet, so that one no one knows.

Let's hope it's not pig.

I like the GTO just fine, but if a 5th gen Z/28, for example...handles like the current GTO....I will be extremely disappointed - to the point of not wanting to buy one.

Really....I'm not kidding.

How much did the 4th gen weigh again ;)

How much did the 4th gen weigh again ;)

3500. Are you saying that's the answer for the 5th gen? Smart airbags, increased crash protection, IRS, and all? That'd be quite a coup for GM!

Even the much smaller, Chevy Cavalier sized BMW M3 weighs just over 3400 pounds.... and that's with a 6 cylinder! Even a Solstice weighs 3000 pounds.


Next.

Noit be pipcky but no Cavalier weighed that much. Solstice is 2800 and change. Okay I am done;)

Weight is just a number. A car can still handle very good without being a featherweight. I would take a blance between ride and handling.

At this point the car has to have a 5 star crash rating. It is important to have this for marketing and insurance cost. This is a GM priority with this car.

To make it lighter you would need much of the items going into the Vette. This would be Aluminum, Magnesium, Balsa wood and Carbon fiber. Understanding this the cost at this time would rise too high to compete with the Mustang. I expect with more used of these materials we will see them in the future if and when cost decline.

I expect The Camaro will come in around 3600-3700 but GM will give this car power never seen in a factory street Camaro before. I think your V6 will even show power that would rival many of the early V8 Camaros of the past. I get the funny feeling 300 HP for a V6 might not be too far off what they will do. The new coming G6 engine has near that coming already.

Also if they do have some weight it will also make a stiffer car. The more solid the platform the better the handling. Some my not like the 2800 pounds the Solstice weighs in at but it kept its cost down and is a very solid roadster. Keep in mind GM is now backing it up with a 260HP engine.

Less weight would be ideal but this is the real world and many factors are needed to be addressed. As long as the bottom line that this car is better in price, quality, out handles and out runs the compitition who cares how much it weighs.

If you win with price and performance with a better built car you win the game regardless of weight.

Noit be pipcky but no Cavalier weighed that much. Solstice is 2800 and change. Okay I am done;)

Weight is just a number. A car can still handle very good without being a featherweight. I would take a blance between ride and handling.

i believe he was talking about the M3 weighing that much

Well cars are getting heavier because we have so many more needs on them, crash protection, passive and active safety options. You also want something thats quiet, stays warm in cold weather and cool in hot weather. People want leather and heated seats they want navigations systems and heads up display. Not to mention we want our V8 with a manual trans strong rear, especially if IRS, and we don't want the car to ratle and shake down going over RR tracks. All this adds weight and lots of it.
The 60's Pony cars didn't have to worry about any of this if you wanted that stuff get a Caddy. But today we want our cake and you know the rest... So if the new Camaro weighs more than the 4th Gen but in line with the Mustang and Challenger (which will certainly be heavier) for a price we can afford then I think thats as good as we get.

Could GM build a 3300 lb Camaro yes but what would it cost, Z06 price???

i believe he was talking about the M3 weighing that much

damn. I look dumb again.

Par for the course I guess:D

The new $70000 Jag XK8 weighs 3600 pounds, and it's within inches of the 4th gen Camaro, and it has an aluminum body. Maybe you remove a little sound deadening to make a Camaro, but still . . . .

If any automaker were to truly make weight a priority, we would have much lighter-weight cars that don't cost any more (maybe less). At the expense of NVH. Truth is, big, fat, dumb, heavy, numb Americans just LOVE big, fat, dumb, heavy, numb cars (& trucks & SUVs).

A Solstice-based LS-engined 5th-gen coupe could've been 3200 lb. EASY. Unfortunately, the 5th-gen looks like it'll be based on an overweight-for-its-class new CTS.

They won't be selling me a 3500+ lb. 5th-gen, and many consider that to be an overly OPTIMISTIC weight estimate. Progress? I think not.

As for handling, weight is SO important that my 35 year-old Datsun can seriously whup up on contemporary more sophisticated machinery with better power/weight ratios. Light weight is its ONLY advantage, but it's enough.

New, heavy cars may *feel* like they handle great on the road, but at the track their mass is their Achilles heel.

New, heavy cars may *feel* like they handle great on the road, but at the track their mass is their Achilles heel.

Since most people do all their driving 'on the road' and will most likely never step foot on the track, it doesn't really matter to the general buying public if the mass is an Achilles heel at the track.

I'd be happy if it was as heavy as 3599lbs. with the LS2.

As long as gas milage and handling are better than the 4th gen and current Mustang, who cares if it weighs 5,000lbs?

I'm expecting a curb weight in the 3600-3700 range, and a car that handles better than any stock Camaro of the past, measured in pretty much any manner (MPH through a slalom, skidpad, whatever).

Just guessing though. :D

not gonna happen... well thats if u dont want to upgrade a g92 1le to some 17s an 275s

3500. Are you saying that's the answer for the 5th gen? Smart airbags, increased crash protection, IRS, and all? That'd be quite a coup for GM!

Why do some people on this site insist the 4th gen weighed 3500lbs? If we are counting every pound on here, then this is an extremely poor rough estimate. Maybe for a vert, but not a coupe. A coupe 4th gen weight between 3350 and 3400lbs, depending on options.

I'd be happy if it was as heavy as 3599lbs. with the LS2.

As long as gas milage and handling are better than the 4th gen and current Mustang, who cares if it weighs 5,000lbs?


Because it wouldn't handle well if it weighed 5000lbs. Sure, GM could build a 5th gen that handles well at 3800lbs, but imagine how much beter it would handle if it was a few hundred pounds lighter. Also, with the lighter weight, comes a much more responsive chassis.

Noit be pipcky but no Cavalier weighed that much. Solstice is 2800 and change. Okay I am done;)

I didn't say the Cavalier weighed that much. I said the Chevy Cavalier SIZED BMW M3 weighed 3400 and change.

Solstice weighs 2860, so that was a '140 pound' exageration on my part. :)

Why do some people on this site insist the 4th gen weighed 3500lbs? If we are counting every pound on here, then this is an extremely poor rough estimate. Maybe for a vert, but not a coupe. A coupe 4th gen weight between 3350 and 3400lbs, depending on options.

A 2002 Camaro V6 weighed 3325 with manual & around 3355 with the automatic in base form.

The 2002 Z28, again in base form (that $23K, no option, hardtop version that no one wanted) is 3405 with the manual and about 3435 with the automatic.

A loaded 2002 Camaro SS is over 3500 pounds with the 6 speed manual.

Automatics: add 40 pounds over the manual.

Convertibles: add 135 pounds.

T-tops (included with SS) add about 20 pounds to V6 and Z28s Camaros. Leather is at least double the weight of cloth.

My base level, cloth interior B4C automatic Camaro is about 3435, while someone's Camaro SS with every option in the book would easily weigh at least 3550 or so. An SS convertible another 135 pounds over that. While the small handful of people smart enough to get that $23K (minus incentives and cash back) base Z28 back in 2002 would be driving that light-as-they-come 3405 pound LS1 Camaro.

T-tops, RS' ground effects, the SS' induction system, even leather seats and 275 (vs 245) tires and bigger rims add weight. Also, 4th gens picked up a few pounds when they changed to the Bousch brakes along with other changes back in '98.

No matter how you look at it, Camaro for being 194" long, 74" wide, packing a high powered V8 and being a RWD car is still unusually light in weight, even at 3400-3500 pounds. The GTO and CTSv's 3700-3800 pound weight is more of the norm.

Why do some people on this site insist the 4th gen weighed 3500lbs? If we are counting every pound on here, then this is an extremely poor rough estimate. Maybe for a vert, but not a coupe. A coupe 4th gen weight between 3350 and 3400lbs, depending on options.

My 2001 Z28 tipped the scale at 3567lbs in stock form.
I'll post the sticker on my door if you don't believe me. :)

My 2001 Z28 tipped the scale at 3567lbs in stock form.
I'll post the sticker on my door if you don't believe me. :)

I'll post some actual weights taken by owners, and they are never over 3500lbs.

If any automaker were to truly make weight a priority, we would have much lighter-weight cars that don't cost any more (maybe less). At the expense of NVH. Truth is, big, fat, dumb, heavy, numb Americans just LOVE big, fat, dumb, heavy, numb cars (& trucks & SUVs).

A Solstice-based LS-engined 5th-gen coupe could've been 3200 lb. EASY. Unfortunately, the 5th-gen looks like it'll be based on an overweight-for-its-class new CTS.

They won't be selling me a 3500+ lb. 5th-gen, and many consider that to be an overly OPTIMISTIC weight estimate. Progress? I think not.

As for handling, weight is SO important that my 35 year-old Datsun can seriously whup up on contemporary more sophisticated machinery with better power/weight ratios. Light weight is its ONLY advantage, but it's enough.

New, heavy cars may *feel* like they handle great on the road, but at the track their mass is their Achilles heel.
I agree with a lot of this. But to make a Camaro a featherweight for today, it would have to be smaller. Probably exactly like your Solstice example. I don't think the economics are right to do that car though.

I'll post some actual weights taken by owners, and they are never over 3500lbs.

Not if they are stock SSs with everything attached it was sold with...

....not if they are post-1998 Z28 models that have a combination of the automatic, T-tops, and leather interior, again with everything attached it was sold with plus any type of upgrades....

.....and not if they were loaded Z28s, again post-1998 with everything still attached. :)

If it's a BASE Z28 manual, with only one or 2 options, then "maybe" it's below 3500 pounds. But it would be more an exception than the rule. :)

I'll post some actual weights taken by owners, and they are never over 3500lbs.
I had mine on the scale last weekend at the dragstrip.

3318 pounds without me.

That was with the following weight reducing items....
Weld Prostars with slicks & skinnies (-90lbs)
Fiberglass hood (-30lbs)
Front sway bar removed (-15lbs)
Passenger & rear seats removed (-40lbs)
Spare tire, jack, and trunk panels removed (-50lbs)

Those weight figures are conservative... a total of 225lbs removed.
3318 + 225 = 3543.

I'm not saying there aren't V8 models under 3500lbs, but V8 models above 3500 are commonplace.

Noit be pipcky but no Cavalier weighed that much. Solstice is 2800 and change. Okay I am done;)

Weight is just a number. A car can still handle very good without being a featherweight. I would take a blance between ride and handling.

My 94 Sunbird with V6/5speed wieghs in at just under 3400lbs......

Mine weighed 3510 with full tank and no people. This was a stock 6-speed Z28 with all options but traction control.

How's this for food for thought:

2007 Toyota Camry V6 Automatic
Overall height, unloaded 57.9
Overall width 71.7
Overall length 189.2
Wheelbase 109.3
Coefficient of drag (Cd) 0.28
Curb weight 3461

If the 5th gen can't basically match it for the same money, I will be disappointed. Were tlaking about a mid-sized (full sized 10 years ago) sedan!!!

A loaded 2002 Camaro SS is over 3500 pounds with the 6 speed manual.


I wonder what the turbo, suspension, & intercooler have mine up to?
Sure doesn't feel heavy when the pedal goes down...:cool:

How's this for food for thought:

2007 Toyota Camry V6 Automatic
Overall height, unloaded 57.9
Overall width 71.7
Overall length 189.2
Wheelbase 109.3
Coefficient of drag (Cd) 0.28
Curb weight 3461

If the 5th gen can't basically match it for the same money, I will be disappointed. Were tlaking about a mid-sized (full sized 10 years ago) sedan!!!

So you're expecting a RWD car with a 400hp V8, driveline and body structure to match -- probably about the same size, or a bit bigger (esp. wider) -- to come in and match this?

Talk about setting yourself up for disappointment . . . .

So you're expecting a RWD car with a 400hp V8, driveline and body structure to match -- probably about the same size, or a bit bigger (esp. wider) -- to come in and match this?

Talk about setting yourself up for disappointment . . . .
What about the 100-150lbs in extra sound deadening and other features that makes Camry a "near-lux" sedan? This is the XLE that I quoted weight on.

And trust me, I know how much driveline components weigh...


Edit:bah, not worth it...

Edit:bah, not worth it...

Oh come on! I'd be interested in what you'd have to say.

What about the 100-150lbs in extra sound deadening and other features that makes Camry a "near-lux" sedan? This is the XLE that I quoted weight on.

And trust me, I know how much driveline components weigh...


I don't think the extra sound deadening is 150 pounds.

Again, midsize FWD V6 sedans are all around the 3500 pound mark. Midsize RWD V8 sedans and coupes are all heavier than that -- as much as 4000 pounds. A few years ago, the midsize FWD V6 sedans weighed more like 3100-3200 pounds, and the midsize RWD V8 vehicles were in the 3400-3800 pound range. As manufacturers have added safety equipment and more powerful engines, cars have gotten heavier. Heck, the Civic SI weighs nearly 2900 pounds and the Volkswagen GTI is over 3100. Even a decade ago, you could have subtracted 20% from both those numbers.

Edit:bah, not worth it...
Oh come on! I'd be interested in what you'd have to say.
^^^

With all things being the same, RWD is heavier than FWD.

Take a Grand Prix GXP. The the halfshafts go directly from tranny output to the wheels.

If you make it IRS RWD, you'll need to add a a drive shaft and a rear cradle to house the differential & longer halfshafts than used in FWD. This easily has the potential to add at least 150 pounds.... minimum.

The cradle holding the engine and tranny are going to be the same weight and strength regardless as to if the front or rear wheels are driven. There's going to have to be some type of reinforcements back aft to support the added weight of the rear assembly and the power being put out back there.

A V6 3460 pound Toyota Camary would likely weigh about 3600 if it were RWD and had IRS.

Guess what a Cadillac CTS V6 weighs???
3568 pounds.

The new BMW 5 series weighs 3460, but the engine and body make substantial use of magnesium. Plus, if you have a substantial front end collision, you have to throw the whole car away.

The BIGGER V6 4th gen was over 100 pounds lighter!
The BASE Z28 is still lighter than the Camry and the V6 CTS!

Run of the mill LS1 F-bodies weighed over 3500 pounds.
LS1 (& LS2) GTOs weigh just over 3700 pounds.

If the new Camaro splits the difference & gains about 100 pounds across the board, ESPECIALLY considering how big it is, not only is it going to be one of the lightest 4 passenger V8 powered cars in the world, every one of us should line up to buy each GM engineer involved in the project a beer.... they would have earned it! :bow:

In 2001 Scott aka Fbodfather who was tracking my SS being built.
Here is the letter I got from him on my car.
Congratulations! It's a boy! Your new Camaro was born this past Monday!
(2-19-01)
He weighed in at 3,539 (he's a strapping muscular guy....) and has all his lug
nuts!
He was trucked over to SLP Engineering and will leave shortly on a train to North Carolina.

That car was maxed out at GM and maxed out at SLP with every Opt. both had with leather and it was a Vert six speed and thats what it weighed from the factory as Scott stated in his letter to me

How much did the 4th gen weigh again ;)

mine was weighed befor i purchased it... and it clocked in at a healthy 3846 lbs...

LS1 for u...

mine was weighed befor i purchased it... and it clocked in at a healthy 3846 lbs...

LS1 for u...


With how many bags of sand in it????

With how many bags of sand in it????

i dont know... thats what the saftey & smog inspection said on it... along with other stuff...

it was the first thing i saw about the car prior to purchasing it...

i was like :confused: thats funny i always thought they were 200-300 lbs lighter then that...

i dont know... thats what the saftey & smog inspection said on it... along with other stuff...

it was the first thing i saw about the car prior to purchasing it...

i was like :confused: thats funny i always thought they were 200-300 lbs lighter then that...

Did it say it was the curb weight, or the gross vehicle shipping weight. 3800lbs is wayyyy too high for any stock 4th gen, regardless of trim or equipment level.

Did it say it was the curb weight, or the gross vehicle shipping weight. 3800lbs is wayyyy too high for any stock 4th gen, regardless of trim or equipment level.

it said curb weight...

not gvwr

it said curb weight...

not gvwr

Dunno what to make of it then man. Maybe they used depleted uranium in some of your suspension parts?

Dunno what to make of it then man. Maybe they used depleted uranium in some of your suspension parts?

lol who knows.. maybe there was someone in the car... maybe it was full of gas... maybe lots of things... maybe i need to clean it out,

haha as long as i still keep winning races i'm happy...
beat an 05 evo last night, beat a C5 convert a few weeks ago...
even with 2.73's in the rear... but my trannys about ready to take a dump

I'd be happy if it was as heavy as 3599lbs. with the LS2.

As long as gas milage and handling are better than the 4th gen and current Mustang, who cares if it weighs 5,000lbs?

I wouldn't count on the gas mileage, as this Camaro looks to lose a lot of that due to poorer aerodynamics. Handling, I don't know.....the 3rd gens handled awesome; the 4th gens got heavier and handling wasn't quite as good.....I hope that trend doesn't continue.....

I wouldn't count on the gas mileage, as this Camaro looks to lose a lot of that due to poorer aerodynamics. Handling, I don't know.....the 3rd gens handled awesome; the 4th gens got heavier and handling wasn't quite as good.....I hope that trend doesn't continue.....

the areodynamics i'd say are not as poor as one would think...

the vehicle sure isnt like the land missles of the 80-90's...

but more or less a better overall vehicle... i'd assume the gas mileage wont be worse then the 4th gen ls1... i'd also venture a guess to say it will be better then the GTO's fuel ecconomy...

With how many bags of sand in it????

Sounds like it was weighed with a full tank of fuel.

I wouldn't count on the gas mileage, as this Camaro looks to lose a lot of that due to poorer aerodynamics. Handling, I don't know.....the 3rd gens handled awesome; the 4th gens got heavier and handling wasn't quite as good.....I hope that trend doesn't continue.....

That the 4th gen handled worse than the 3rd is an illusion.

The 3rd gen rode more harsh than the 4th. Also the steering on the 4th gen was given a more weighty feel to it. To top it off, the car gained about 2-3" in width. These things combined to make the 3rd gen feel like it was a better handling car than the 4th..... until you put both on a course. ;)

Also, according to Scott, there were a couple of years a 4th gen Z28 could beat the same year C5 Corvette around a handling course.

These things combined to make the 3rd gen feel like it was a better handling car than the 4th..... until you put both on a course. ;)

.

Which course?

Sounds like it was weighed with a full tank of fuel.

3800lbs with a full tank of fuel? Still pretty unlikely.

3800lbs with a full tank of fuel? Still pretty unlikely.

Gasoline weighs about 6 pounds per gallon, so a full tank should weigh around 100 pounds.

Maybe the car had the driver and/or "stuff" in it?

Gasoline weighs about 6 pounds per gallon, so a full tank should weigh around 100 pounds.

Maybe the car had the driver and/or "stuff" in it?

Yeah, I know rougly how much gas weighs. For sake of arguement, lets say a fully loaded, spare no option 4th gen coupe weighed in close to 3500lbs minus the gas. 100lbs of gas, and 200lbs of driver and stuff would put it right at 3800lbs. What car companies actually come up with curb weight like this though?

More fodder for discussion. Everyone's having the same problem. They want to take weight out, but governments, advocacy groups (Ralph Nader, Public Citizen, IIHS, Consumer Reports, etc.), and even customers are demanding ever safer, quieter, more solid cars.

http://www.goauto.com.au/mellor/mellor.nsf/story2/E3F47BF765C462EACA2571570013C37D

Interesting that the latest weight gain estimate for VE-commodore is 140kg, which is over 300 pounds. Meaning that the new car that the GTO will be based from will be just over 4000 pounds with a V8 (or about 100 pounds less than a Dodge Charger RT).


I'm sure it will be no problem at all taking out 500 pounds for Camaro.

That the 4th gen handled worse than the 3rd is an illusion.

The 3rd gen rode more harsh than the 4th. Also the steering on the 4th gen was given a more weighty feel to it. To top it off, the car gained about 2-3" in width. These things combined to make the 3rd gen feel like it was a better handling car than the 4th..... until you put both on a course. ;)

Also, according to Scott, there were a couple of years a 4th gen Z28 could beat the same year C5 Corvette around a handling course.

Have you owned both 3rd gen and 4th gen cars? Well, I've had 2 of each.....
1986 Camaro IROC-Z
1991 Camaro RS (V8)
1993 Firebird Formula
1995 Firebird TA (current)
So unless you've had both, I don't think you're really qualified to say either way.

BTW, the 1985 IROC was good for .92g on the skidpad; I don't think ANY 4th gen car was even close to that. The best riding - and best handling of these cars was my 1991 RS. I also don't see how people say the ride quality in the 4th gens are any better because the ones I have had rode like crap - but I didn't buy the cars for the ride. If I wanted a nice ride, I would buy a Cadillac, hehe.

Do you have any lap times for those cars on a track by any chance?

Do you have any lap times for those cars on a track by any chance?


That would be interesting.

I've driven a very low miles, G92, 5 speed, IROC-Z (mine), back to back with a brand new 1993, M6, Z/28. My impressions were that my IROC handled better. True? False? WTF, those are my back to back, FIRST HAND, impressions...which with all the 5th and 10th hand hyperbole we've had on this topic, should count for something, I'd think.

Also, awhile back, (I can't find the post but it was in that long 3rd vs 4th gen thread), someone who is highly respected in racing circles and raced both 3rd gens and 4th gens....had a pretty long and detailed post on the subject. For strictly handling around a road course or auto-X track.....he gave the 3rd gen the advantage.

4th gens, (especially LS1's) have a HUGE power advantage. But hp independent, I know what my own FIRST HAND impressions were.

That would be interesting.

I've driven a very low miles, G92, 5 speed, IROC-Z (mine), back to back with a brand new 1993, M6, Z/28. My impressions were that my IROC handled better. True? False? WTF, those are my back to back, FIRST HAND, impressions...which with all the 5th and 10th hand hyperbole we've had on this topic, should count for something, I'd think.

Also, awhile back, (I can't find the post but it was in that long 3rd vs 4th gen thread), someone who is highly respected in racing circles and raced both 3rd gens and 4th gens....had a pretty long and detailed post on the subject. For strictly handling around a road course or auto-X track.....he gave the 3rd gen the advantage.

4th gens, (especially LS1's) have a HUGE power advantage. But hp independent, I know what my own FIRST HAND impressions were.

Thank you! :D

The only thing that got better with the 4th gen cars is the braking IMHO.
I never actually "timed" those cars on a road course. However, when I was in Hawaii (Honolulu), I used to take the cars out on a road there (Tantalus Rd. for those from Oahu), which is VERY windy and an excellent test of a car's handling - not to mention REALLY fun. Out of all 4 of the F-bodies I've had, the 1991 RS (with the STOCK, ORIGINAL 235/55R16 Goodyear Eagle GA tires) is the one I could go the fastest with on that road.
This information "jives" with the published information out there. It is a WIDELY KNOWN FACT that the 3rd gen cars handled better, period.
What I'm trying to say is if the 5th gen cars continue the trend of being even heavier than the 4th gen, it's going to be a PIG!

This information "jives" with the published information out there. It is a WIDELY KNOWN FACT that the 3rd gen cars handled better, period.
So then logically if a 98+ Camaro SS could outrun/handle the C5 on whatever course that was, then all 3rd gens should be able to as well. :p

I'd like to see some lap times from prodrivers to put this thing to rest, because I do not think it is a widely known fact. What is widely known is that 3rd gen owners claim their cars handled better ;) I can't personally speak to the handling of the 3rd gen since I have never driven one, but I am in general skeptical of any SOTP report for any performance criteria.

So then logically if a 98+ Camaro SS could outrun/handle the C5 on whatever course that was, then all 3rd gens should be able to as well. :p

I'd like to see some lap times from prodrivers to put this thing to rest, because I do not think it is a widely known fact. What is widely known is that 3rd gen owners claim their cars handled better ;) I can't personally speak to the handling of the 3rd gen since I have never driven one, but I am in general skeptical of any SOTP report for any performance criteria.

You are right. SOTP is no substitute for actual hard data. However, IMHO it is EXPONENTIALLY more compelling than mere loose benchracing talk, from people who have never actually compared the differences on actual cars....or even driven them. ;) :p

You are right. SOTP is no substitute for actual hard data. However, IMHO it is EXPONENTIALLY more compelling than mere loose benchracing talk, from people who have never actually compared the differences on actual cars....or even driven them. ;) :p
Exactly. That is why I would never do such a thing personally ;)

Exactly. That is why I would never do such a thing personally ;)

Actually, I was referring to Guy's post where he says that it's an illusion initiated by the 3rd gen's lighter steering, narrower width and stiffer ride.

It is a WIDELY KNOWN FACT that the 3rd gen cars handled better, period.


It is widely known, huh? Feel is not always the best way to base your judgement, and it may be a fact to you, but that does not mean it is a widely known fact. Truth is, I have no idea what handles better, but your sole conclusion does little to sate my curiousity.

BTW, the 1985 IROC was good for .92g on the skidpad; I don't think ANY 4th gen car was even close to that.

BTW, it is a WIDELY KNOWN FACT that skidpad has more to do with the quality of tires used on the vehicle than the vehicles dynamics itself, so I don't know why you are using that as sole criteria for the basis of your claim.

So then logically if a 98+ Camaro SS could outrun/handle the C5 on whatever course that was, then all 3rd gens should be able to as well. :p

I'd like to see some lap times from prodrivers to put this thing to rest, because I do not think it is a widely known fact. What is widely known is that 3rd gen owners claim their cars handled better ;) I can't personally speak to the handling of the 3rd gen since I have never driven one, but I am in general skeptical of any SOTP report for any performance criteria.

As you stated, SOTP can be extremely sketchy. The SS that run down the z51 c5 was a 1le, and I am extremely skeptical of a third gen ever being able to run with a 1le SS. Maybe a z28 or Formula/TransAm, but there exists a no small amount of doubt in me that a 3rd gen will handle an SLP car.

As you stated, SOTP can be extremely sketchy. The SS that run down the z51 c5 was a 1le, and I am extremely skeptical of a third gen ever being able to run with a 1le SS. Maybe a z28 or Formula/TransAm, but there exists a no small amount of doubt in me that a 3rd gen will handle an SLP car.

Have you ever driven a 3rd gen F-body?:rolleyes:

Just another two cents worth. To me, seat of the pants is really all I care about. Since I am not a road racer and do not care about exact lap times, the competent car that "feels" as though it handles the best is the one that inspires the most confidence in me and, most importantly, the one that is the most FUN to drive. Having said that, and having owned a number of Camaros, my 1985 IROC Z is BY FAR the best handling of the bunch, SOTP anyways. I drove several LS1, SS Camaros when they were new, as I really wanted to buy one. I didn't because I just couldn't justify the expense of that new car when, to me, it was not nearly as fun to drive as the IROC. It did not "feel" like it handled nearly as well. There was what felt like a lot of body roll compared to the flat as a pancake, on rails feeling of my 85. Obviously, the SS had A LOT more power, but that's not everything for me in the fun-to-drive formula. I hope that the 5th gen car is as good of a SOTP wonder as my trusty old IROC. The last new car I bought was the 85 and I am so ready for a 400 horse Z!

As you stated, SOTP can be extremely sketchy. The SS that run down the z51 c5 was a 1le, and I am extremely skeptical of a third gen ever being able to run with a 1le SS. Maybe a z28 or Formula/TransAm, but there exists a no small amount of doubt in me that a 3rd gen will handle an SLP car.

Apparently the Camaro SS in question, not only had a 1LE suspension, but also a set of freakishly grippy BFG KD's. The Z51 on the other hand, was wearing some pretty slippery runflats.

Those KD's are pretty bad ass. Wonder what that C5 could of done with a set of those? In fact, I wonder how a 3rd gen 1LE would handle with a set of KD's.

Oh, this debate is getting pretty good now.

I'll just have to race an IROC with my little 2000 Firebird to settle this once and for all. :)

Oh, this debate is getting pretty good now.

I'll just have to race an IROC with my little 2000 Firebird to settle this once and for all. :)


You go get 'em Matt!

Have you ever driven a 3rd gen F-body?:rolleyes:

Yep. Have you ever given any definitive evidence to back up your claims, besides SOTP?:rolleyes:

Apparently the Camaro SS in question, not only had a 1LE suspension, but also a set of freakishly grippy BFG KD's. The Z51 on the other hand, was wearing some pretty slippery runflats.

Those KD's are pretty bad ass. Wonder what that C5 could of done with a set of those? In fact, I wonder how a 3rd gen 1LE would handle with a set of KD's.

It would probably handle pretty damn well. I would imagine anything with BFG KD's would handle pretty well.

BTW, it is a WIDELY KNOWN FACT that skidpad has more to do with the quality of tires used on the vehicle than the vehicles dynamics itself, so I don't know why you are using that as sole criteria for the basis of your claim.

Uh-huh.....and I suppose you're going to tell me that the Goodyear Gatorbacks that came on the 3rd gen cars are way better than the Goodyear GSCs that came on the 4th gens.....come on now.....
And since you're so hell-bent on lap times.....depending on the road course, HORSEPOWER can go a LONG WAY in making up for a piss-poor handling car. That's why you can't use road course lap times at say, Road America, to compare the handling of a 3rd gen and 4th gen car. The 4th gen will win ONLY because it has over 100 more horsepower.

What is widely known is that 3rd gen owners claim their cars handled better ;)

Maybe you should take another look at my signature dude. :p

Oh, this debate is getting pretty good now.

I'll just have to race an IROC with my little 2000 Firebird to settle this once and for all. :)

Believe it or not, you'd have a WAY better chance drag racing against that IROC; in a test of handling, the IROC would hand the 4th gen Firebird it's @$$.

Yep. Have you ever given any definitive evidence to back up your claims, besides SOTP?:rolleyes:

Yep.....and by the way, the fact that you choose to ignore the information out there and posted in this thread means you're being ignorant not skeptical. :D Also, just because you haven't done the research isn't my problem, it's YOURS.
Again, EVERYTHING I have read has said that the 4th gen cars gave up some handling ability to "try" and make them ride more comfortably. Again, that combined with my personal experience of owning the cars I've had (2nd AND 1st hand experience), what else is there to say? Again, I've had all 4 of those cars on a road that was a TRUE test of a car's handling ability, and I could take ALL the corners on that road a good 5-10mph faster in both 3rd gen cars. Does this translate into better handling?....Uhhh....yeah.....
Finally, lest you think I'm biased, again, check the signature. Don't get me wrong, I love the 4th gens, but they just don't handle as well as the 3rd gens. A combination of smaller sway bars, softer springs, and GREATER VEHICLE WEIGHT (which was the original topic) will normally do that. Please GM, give us a lighter, better handling Camaro....:)

Believe it or not, you'd have a WAY better chance drag racing against that IROC; in a test of handling, the IROC would hand the 4th gen Firebird it's @$$.
I agree that I would definitely have better chance drag racing one. I don't have stock suspension, but I didn't turn my car into a supercar or anything so it would be fun to see.

And... you owned a third gen, so you are a third gen owner ;)

Since nobody that has only owned only a 4th gen believes the 3rd handles better, my statement about what belief is 'widely known' is accurate. Not that being widely held makes it valid or anything. :)

Don't get me wrong, I love the 4th gens, but they just don't handle as well as the 3rd gens. A combination of smaller sway bars, softer springs, and GREATER VEHICLE WEIGHT (which was the original topic) will normally do that. Please GM, give us a ligher, better handling Camaro....:)

The 3rd gen didn't have ABS (except maybe as an option towards the end), dual airbags, would not have done well on modern crash tests, only had 250hp, was not a LEV, let alone ULEV-2, no traction or stability control, no tire deflation sensors, 16" wheels only, etc. It also had an unacceptable level of rattles and body flex for a modern car.

Uh-huh.....and I suppose you're going to tell me that the Goodyear Gatorbacks that came on the 3rd gen cars are way better than the Goodyear GSCs that came on the 4th gens.....come on now.....

I have no idea which tires are better. I just know that both of them suck. It still doesn't change what I said, skidpad is a poor way of weighting vehicle dynamics.


And since you're so hell-bent on lap times.....depending on the road course, HORSEPOWER can go a LONG WAY in making up for a piss-poor handling car.


Yes, it certainly can. I didn't realize I was hellbent on laptimes though; I only brought it up once. Based off of the huge hp advantage a 4th gen fbody has, I would bet that a 4th gen would destroy a 3rd gen on pretty much every road course out there. The SCCA runs the 4th gen fbodies in the same rank as the Evos and STIs in autocross (rank A I think), so they must handle at least decently, although I don't believe the cars have to be stock.



Yep.....and by the way, the fact that you choose to ignore the information out there and posted in this thread means you're being ignorant not skeptical. :D Also, just because you haven't done the research isn't my problem, it's YOURS.

No, the burden becomes your problem when you are adamant on preaching your opinion as fact. I believe my words were to the effect of I really have no idea which car is actually better handling. Yours were to the effect that you knew for certain. I have heard contrary to 3rd gens being the better handlers as well. I have heard also that 3rd gens do actually handle better. Which is correct, I do not know, but I don't pretend to know the answer based solely off of my own SOTP experience.

The SCCA runs the 4th gen fbodies in the same rank as the Evos and STIs in autocross (rank A I think), so they must handle at least decently, although I don't believe the cars have to be stock.
The class is FS, or F stock (funny, F-bodies are in F-stock).

The SCCA runs the 4th gen fbodies in the same rank as the Evos and STIs in autocross (rank A I think), so they must handle at least decently, although I don't believe the cars have to be stock.


SS's and WS6's run A Stock while Z28's V8 Firebirds are F Stock, along with all V8 thirdgens (except probably the 92 Firehawk).

My experience with the two cars is that the power and tires (275's vs 245's stock) make the fourth gen faster, but the thirdgen was more fun to drive as it felt more connected to the road.

First, have you driven a GTO? Do you know how it handles? Or are you just looking at a number and passing judgement?

Secondly, unless we are talking about something the weight of Tahoes, modern engineering and tires can make up for ALOT of weight. A BMW M5 is over 4,000 pounds (about the same as Charger Hemi & 300 pounds heavier than a GTO!).

Third, the 4th gen for it's size was a absolute featherweight at 3400 pounds with V8. Check other RWD cars that size. Even the much smaller, Chevy Cavalier sized BMW M3 weighs just over 3400 pounds.... and that's with a 6 cylinder! Even a Solstice weighs 3000 pounds.


If you want a modern car the size of the Camaro concept, and you want IRS, and you want a chassis capable of handling far more than 400 horsepower, and you want AC and power everything, and you don't want to pay through the nose by it using exotic metal, and you want to be safer driving it than you would be driving a '67 model, it's going to weigh some pounds.

A "Pig" refers to a heavy car that doesn't handle, and is sloppy. GTO by no streach of the imagination is a pig. Camaro isn't going to be either.

Thanks. 100% agree.

Actually, I was referring to Guy's post where he says that it's an illusion initiated by the 3rd gen's lighter steering, narrower width and stiffer ride.

Repeating what RP once told us a few years ago. Both to a group of us at a post-LAIAS gathering, and again on a post he made here.

FWIW, although it was about 6 years ago, I also have actually driven a 3rd gen IROC.... was comparing it to my '97. ;)

"Chevy engineers working on the new Camaro have run into a small problem with the Australian developed Zeta RWD platform: it's porky. Whisper out of Melbourne is the Zeta-based Commodore sedan, on sale this year in Australia, will weigh in at about 4000 lbs, mainly because of tough local crash-test regulations."