New NASCAR series coming?

NASCAR is nothing more than a glorified joke to me, however this might make me take pause. NASCAR is considering a series using smaller coupes.

I would hope this would be the successor to the old Trans Am series, though seeing NASCAR likes to make everything even and keep the "Stock" out of Stock Car Racing in order to keep attention on the drivers and not the cars or the manufacturers (though it doesn't extend to the manufacturers money), I'm still cautious on how things would turn out.

According to a manufacturer source, NASCAR officials have floated one solution to the apparent problem to the series' manufacturers. It involves changing the cars that race in the series from the current models being run in the Nextel Cup Series to smaller, sportier ones.

The current Busch Series cars are slightly smaller versions of their Nextel Cup cousins. In the past, the Busch Series used makes of cars not used in the Cup series, as well as V-6 engines instead of Cup V-8s, but now the cars used in the two series are more alike.

If the two series ran cars that differed more from each other, it would greatly limit what Cup drivers and teams could learn in the Busch Series and apply to the next day's Cup race, thus making racing Busch a less attractive proposition.

A change back to smaller cars could have Chevrolet fielding the new retro Camaro (scheduled for 2009) and Dodge running its new Challenger (scheduled for 2008). Pontiac could return to NASCAR to run its new, smaller GTO, Ford would field its highly-successful redesigned retro Mustang, and Toyota could run a Celica or its future replacement.

Initial reaction among the manufacturers has been very positive.

Any changes would be instituted well after the new Car of Tomorrow is fully integrated into the Nextel Cup Series, which currently is scheduled to happen in 2009.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nascar/news;_ylt=Alc1fCDbukkuJwkI1nMqlrnov7YF?slug=bm-notebook031806&prov=yhoo&type=lgns

It would be nice to see that lineup of cars running in NASCAR.

NASCAR is nothing more than a glorified joke to me, however this might make me take pause. NASCAR is considering a series using smaller coupes.

I would hope this would be the successor to the old Trans Am series, though seeing NASCAR likes to make everything even and keep the "Stock" out of Stock Car Racing in order to keep attention on the drivers and not the cars or the manufacturers (though it doesn't extend to the manufacturers money), I'm still cautious on how things would turn out.



http://sports.yahoo.com/nascar/news;_ylt=Alc1fCDbukkuJwkI1nMqlrnov7YF?slug=bm-notebook031806&prov=yhoo&type=lgns

Definitely way kewl:cool: Another stage on which the horsepower/manufacturer wars can be staged!! A great way to bring a whole whack of new fans back into the fold!
The next step has gotta be to get these cars into a series that's run on road courses so we can watch the Camaro kick everybody's butt! This is all a Trans-Am deja vu for me! Who will be the next reincarnation of Mark Donahue, George Follmer, Jerry Titus and Parnelli Jones?!?
Don't ask how much I'm looking forward to this!! ... and it's only gonna get better!
Thanks for the info!!

Best regardSS,

Elie

Nextel Cup is moving to their new, slower, "car of tomorrow" next year, so I would consider this article simply wild speculation at this point. And Guy, I'm surprised someone as inside the muscle car business wouldn't like NASCAR. It's done alot IMO to keep completely impractical sports cars (such as the Camaro) around to this day. It was "stock" auto racing that brought it about in the first place.

Besides, have you been to a cup race? Not only is it a horsepower junkies dream, but where else do 200,000 people gather just to get f*cked up and enjoy fast cars?

If your beef is more towards the business side of things, though, I do understand where you're coming from.

Now would those still be sheet metal clad, tube steel chassis, with decals for headlights... or would "could" NASCAR survive with a series of vehicles more like their street counterparts that wouldn't be so closely matched so that no brand has an advantage..... Doubt it NASCAR will still be the WWF of autoracing. Although it would be cool to have Mustang, Camaro, Challenger and maybe the GTO compete.

It's done alot IMO to keep completely impractical sports cars (such as the Camaro) around to this day. It was "stock" auto racing that brought it about in the first place.



The Camaro isn't a NASCAR racer and to my knowledge never was. IROC series yes Winston Cup no. maybe you meant Monte Carlo. And the Camaro started out as a pony car competitor from Chevy against the Mustang. They raced in the Trans Am racing of the late 60's. They did more than turn left....

Nextel Cup is moving to their new, slower, "car of tomorrow" next year, so I would consider this article simply wild speculation at this point. And Guy, I'm surprised someone as inside the muscle car business wouldn't like NASCAR. It's done alot IMO to keep completely impractical sports cars (such as the Camaro) around to this day. It was "stock" auto racing that brought it about in the first place.

Besides, have you been to a cup race? Not only is it a horsepower junkies dream, but where else do 200,000 people gather just to get f*cked up and enjoy fast cars?

If your beef is more towards the business side of things, though, I do understand where you're coming from.

It's says fully integrated to the car of tomorrow, which wont happen until 09'. The car of tomorrow makes it's debut 1 year from this weekend at Bristol, and will be run in 16 races in 07.

I think that would be one hell of a way to get more fans to the Busch series....make it different than the cup series.

I think nascar is still looking for a way to get ALL the japanese brands involved. Then it will be inascar (international assoc stock car racing) The japanese brands want to be perceived as american. I think this season will be my last watching nascar. I wont be able to take the waltrips and all their toyota talk next year. :yuck:

And Guy, I'm surprised someone as inside the muscle car business wouldn't like NASCAR. It's done alot IMO to keep completely impractical sports cars (such as the Camaro) around to this day. It was "stock" auto racing that brought it about in the first place.

Besides, have you been to a cup race? Not only is it a horsepower junkies dream, but where else do 200,000 people gather just to get f*cked up and enjoy fast cars?

If your beef is more towards the business side of things, though, I do understand where you're coming from.

Where do people go to enjoy fast cars?

Drag Racing, SCCA racing, Australia's V8 Supercar racing, even Formula 1 racing. In those races, there is actual competition between different machines an at least an association with the car you'd actually buy.

Australia's Supercar races use actual race prepared stock cars (the stuff NASCAR forgot how to do) and typically run a race course, not a oval loop. Ditto SCCA races. Formula 1 racers at least have engines built buy car companies, and drag racing at least uses production engines or production cars (save dragsters). Even drifting is more entertaining to me.

NASCAR is all about short pitstops and personalities, NOT about cars. Good drama outsells good racing. At least IROC was straightforward about what it was, and you could settle down and see who was the best driver in identically prepared same model cars.


But to answer why I don't like NASCAR:

1. NASCAR doesn't have anything to do with muscle cars.

2. NASCAR engines suck (restrictor plates because the cars are too fast?! WTF!.....stock GTOs put out NASCAR horsepower nowadays! )

3. NASCAR car bodies have nothing to do with car bodies. Whenever any car showed a slight advantage over the last 20 years, NASCAR has hammered it down instead of other competitors adopting or coming up with something better.

4. NASCAR has done absolutely positively squat to keep Camaro alive, let alone anything else (ever hear of the Thunderbird? How about the Lumina? Magnum coupe? Advenger? Taurus? Charger coupe? Grand Prix coupe? Regal?......)

5. NASCAR is nothing but a major advertising machine.

6. The only thing entertaining about NASCAR is listening to people who still believe it has anything to do with stock cars. :lol:

6. Guzzling beer & watching pretty colors with massive advertizing stickers going around in circles for a few hours make-believing they are real cars doesn't intrest me unless:

a) They actually are real cars
b) They at least resemble real cars
c) They crash.
d) They have 4 legs each, and I can bet on it at the window.


To me, NASCAR hasn't been worthwhile since the Lumina/Thunderbird rivialry of the late 1980s, let alone the Monte Carlo/Thunderbird/Grand Prix of the early 80s.

Sure, NASCAR popular with alot of people. But then again, so are "Boy Bands" and Brittney Spears. That doesn't mean they produce real music.

Ditto NASCAR. :devil:

I am a Nascar fan, but I hope that this rumor would have some truth behind it. I'd further hope that having these smaller cars also meant keeping the actual body shapes of the cars, factory blocks perhaps as well. Seeing a 427 Camaro, and a Hemi Challenger racing around a road course banging fenders and a Stang go driving into the wall would be entertaining as hell. Hot Rod Magazines suggesting a few months back was just like that, let any midsized car compete, has to have a factory produced block and retain the stock body shape and etc.

This car of the future means crap to me and I don't think its the way to go. Nascar would sell with real cars on the track not just with personalities. There were personalities in the 60's, 70's and 80's with real bodied cars.... they'd still turn a profit so I do not get their "business" case to make everything even. I wonder if by 2020 they will even use the god forsaken fuel injection?! maybe even take the restrictor plates off the cars too... when the pace car at daytona has 505hp and could possibly outrun a field of race prep'd "stock" cars... thats sort of sad.

Ever notice a NASCAR race looks the same as flushing a bunch of skittles down a toilet? Pretty colors that go fast, turn left, repeat.

With the lack of sucess of an American road racing circuit like CART, continuous anemic fan and TV coverage of ALMS and Grand Am its amazing someone proclaimed to have good sense would badmouth NASCAR from sticking to racecars and ovals.

When CART proves to make a dollar, people give a crap about non-Indy 500 IndyCar Series races, an average someone can tell you what day of the week the usual Rolex Grand Am race takes place, or NHRA see-saws the NFL as America's top sport then can NASCAR stop making its decisions as it has been for the last 50+ years.

It works people.

Here, we have a forum based on a car that we think will work to replace something that failed as we love it. But we take time out of our figuring to chuckle about the dumb sides of the NASCAR sanctioning body and its decisions.

NASCAR has become the new Wal-Mart among 100% American business' to be scarred by it's own people.

To me, NASCAR hasn't been worthwhile since the Lumina/Thunderbird rivialry of the late 1980s, let alone the Monte Carlo/Thunderbird/Grand Prix of the early 80s.


I couldn't agree with you more, those were the days. :thumb:

I can't understand why GM, Ford, and Chrysler continue to dump million of dollars into NASCAR, which is nothing more than a big money pit for them. The cars are completely and totally unrelated to the production models that share their names. No technology is carried over (as opposed to Formula 1, where certain car companies use the technology they have in the race cars in their street vehicles). The closest a Monte Carlo gets to NASCAR is a spoiler and some decals. Then there's the advertising costs.

NASCAR is a huge waste of time and money for the Big Three. It might have worked when NASCAR was still true to it's roots, but times have changed.

Gimme a ticket to an SCCA event any day.

I would like to see NASCAR do something like this. As it stands, except for some of the motor tech, I don't really have much interest at all in NASCAR.


On a completely unrelated note to NASCAR, I noticed the guy who wrote that article seems to the Camaro concept is retro, so I know there are at least a few journalists out there that feel that way too.

2. NASCAR engines suck (restrictor plates because the cars are too fast?! WTF!.....stock GTOs put out NASCAR horsepower nowadays! )

Thats only at Talladegga and Daytona, otherwise NASCAR engines are putting down upwards of 850hp. I agree for the most part with what you are saying though Guy, but it is pretty cool to see 3500lb cars flying around a track at 180+mph, side by side. Then again, that only last for about a half hour, after that i usually doze off for part of the race, EVEN when im at the track!!!

2. NASCAR engines suck (restrictor plates because the cars are too fast?! WTF!.....stock GTOs put out NASCAR horsepower nowadays!

Actually that is only true for two tracks. Daytona and Talladega. Reason being is that Bobby Allison almost landed in the laps of the fans back in 89 at Talladega as the cars were starting to get airborne when they turned backwards. Bobby's car took down a good section of the catchfence and injured some fans in the process.

At the rest of the tracks, the cars run unrestricted engines that put out anywhere from 700 to 750 HP. The plates were put on not for the drivers sake but for the fans safety at Daytona and Talladega.

IMHO I hate plates as well, they take away the throttle response from the drivers and forces them to race in a big pack that cannot open up. To the average yuppie new age fan this is "Exciting" to me its bull**** as I want to see them race and see the best team and driver win, and not have their fate controlled by a stupid device under the carb.

NASCAR has several options they could do to fix the problem and at least open the plate back up to what it was in the early 90's. They, IMO should force each brand to use factory sheetmetal on the cars. Same dimensions, same height and etc. They can still have the chassis underneath for driver safety with the engines, but have a full skin on the outside that is matches the dimensions of the street car to a "T"

This will significantly "dirty" up the cars so handling will come back into play, then open those damn plates up so the real drivers can race and the pansy ones can parade around in the back. Basically this would be getting back to style of racing like it was in the 80's and getting away from the generic car of today.

Also if NA$CAR is so obbessed with fan safety (they arent now, it just puts on a "good show") then remove the lower 30 rows of the seats along the fence and wall and rebuild them up top. This will safely move the fans away from the fence so nothing can come thru and hit them. Course this requires some investment and a few dollars spent, but the France family would never do that.

That would cost money, and even though they are billionares, they go into death throws if they have to spend a penny to improve anything themselves.

I can see where Guy's disdain comes from on NASCAR as I've been a fan of the "stock car" racing for a long time, however I've watched the last 10 years of the series turn into crap with big money, big tv contracts, and fluffy puff drivers become the big thing in the sport. It is getting to where now I only enjoy watching the few remaining short tracks and a few other places that are tough to race on such as Darlington, Dover, and etc. NASCAR has of late become more of a PR marketing series than a racing series.

I'm a NASCAR fan, but not nearly as much as a few years ago. It was better when the cars even 'somewhat' resembled a 'stock car' back in the 80's. I understand why NASCAR did what they did with the cars, but it's ended up totally killing the individuality of the brands.

As for this new series, I really doubt it will happen unless NASCAR is thinking about starting a Trans-Am type series, which would be very cool IMO. As stated above, NASCAR is moving towards a bigger, slower car in the Car of Tomorrow that will debut next year. And while the original idea was to make the cars today to be a little more like the cars in the 80's, the COT has evolved into a truly ugly car from what I've seen. On top of that, apparently the only difference between manufactures is going to be the grill. Otherwise the only visual way to distiguish the cars will be the decals. I know NASCAR is trying to get the cars to be 'aero equal', but there has got to be a better way!

Where do people go to enjoy fast cars?

Drag Racing, SCCA racing, Australia's V8 Supercar racing, even Formula 1 racing. In those races, there is actual competition between different machines an at least an association with the car you'd actually buy.

Australia's Supercar races use actual race prepared stock cars (the stuff NASCAR forgot how to do) and typically run a race course, not a oval loop. Ditto SCCA races. Formula 1 racers at least have engines built buy car companies, and drag racing at least uses production engines or production cars (save dragsters). Even drifting is more entertaining to me.

NASCAR is all about short pitstops and personalities, NOT about cars. Good drama outsells good racing. At least IROC was straightforward about what it was, and you could settle down and see who was the best driver in identically prepared same model cars.


But to answer why I don't like NASCAR:

1. NASCAR doesn't have anything to do with muscle cars.

2. NASCAR engines suck (restrictor plates because the cars are too fast?! WTF!.....stock GTOs put out NASCAR horsepower nowadays! )

3. NASCAR car bodies have nothing to do with car bodies. Whenever any car showed a slight advantage over the last 20 years, NASCAR has hammered it down instead of other competitors adopting or coming up with something better.

4. NASCAR has done absolutely positively squat to keep Camaro alive, let alone anything else (ever hear of the Thunderbird? How about the Lumina? Magnum coupe? Advenger? Taurus? Charger coupe? Grand Prix coupe? Regal?......)

5. NASCAR is nothing but a major advertising machine.

6. The only thing entertaining about NASCAR is listening to people who still believe it has anything to do with stock cars. :lol:

6. Guzzling beer & watching pretty colors with massive advertizing stickers going around in circles for a few hours make-believing they are real cars doesn't intrest me unless:

a) They actually are real cars
b) They at least resemble real cars
c) They crash.
d) They have 4 legs each, and I can bet on it at the window.


To me, NASCAR hasn't been worthwhile since the Lumina/Thunderbird rivialry of the late 1980s, let alone the Monte Carlo/Thunderbird/Grand Prix of the early 80s.

Sure, NASCAR popular with alot of people. But then again, so are "Boy Bands" and Brittney Spears. That doesn't mean they produce real music.

Ditto NASCAR. :devil:


A-MEN!

NASCAR is so completely dead to me now - I simply don't care what they do anymore.

On the upside, they are ripe for competition now. I'd like to see someone make a real push for a REAL racing series.

I comletely agree with Guy. And I too would like to see a series with smaller cars that compete on road courses as well as circle tracks (I don't particularly care for circle tracks but if the public wants it so be it.) Unfortunately I think the only reason NASCAR would create or change a current series to smaller cars would be to open the door for foreign automakers and the sponsors that come with them. Instead of Camaros and Mustangs I think you would see Civics and 350Z's.

To comment furthur on my post the import car market is the only segment that NASCAR hasn't tapped into. Just think of money something like that could bring in.
On a side note I think that I might be somewhat more interested in NASCAR if they ran some road course races at the large ovals that have the road course built into the infield (Gateway and Daytona come to mind) as well as the big courses. It would kind of break up the monontony (sp?) of the circle tracks.

The France family already has Grand American and not many people watch it. I hope for the sake of stock bodied cars that this potential series goes over well.

I don't want the Camaro associated with the NASCAR name. That would only reenfored the 80's white trash image.

I'd rather see a NASCAR series where they run real FWD Montes and FWD Tuarus against each other. Maybe make it for the FWD midsize segment (Malibu, Fusion, Accord, Camry, Stratus, G6, Arua, Altima)


d) They have 4 legs each, and I can bet on it at the window.


That is the only racing I go to to watch. Saratoga NY is awesome for horse racing. I also like local drag racing on street night. I could care less about purpose built drag cars. I like watching the car that the guy drives to work race.

Not many people watch the Grand Am series because there is almost no media coverage of it. The only time I know its on is when I happen to stumble across it while flipping through the channels. Hardly do I ever see any commercials or ESPN coverage of it.

Why don't they just make the Busch series run cars that are closer to their production counterparts, (i.e. real "stock" cars), and leave the NASCAR-template-paint-and-sticker-clones to the Cup series?

Smaller and sportier doesn't sound right when you consider the actual size difference between a production Monte Carlo and a production Camaro. :irk:

...
But to answer why I don't like NASCAR:

1. NASCAR doesn't have anything to do with muscle cars.

Nor do today's production cars have anything to do with muscle cars. I am tired of everyone calling today's performance cars "muscle cars". The term is too loosely applied to anything out of Detroit with a V8. Muscle cars were raw, lacked frills and options and were basically unsafe. Today's performance cars don't deserve to be called "muscle cars." But then NHRA is just as bad as NASCAR. "Pro Stock"? Give me a break.

2. NASCAR engines suck (restrictor plates because the cars are too fast?! WTF!.....stock GTOs put out NASCAR horsepower nowadays! )

They don't run restrictor plates on every track Guy. Since when does a stock GTO put out 700-800 HP?

3. NASCAR car bodies have nothing to do with car bodies. Whenever any car showed a slight advantage over the last 20 years, NASCAR has hammered it down instead of other competitors adopting or coming up with something better.
I agree with you there. They're all basically the same car with different paint schemes and stickers to make them "look" like production cars. Remember the rumor about a NASCAR brand car?

4. NASCAR has done absolutely positively squat to keep Camaro alive, let alone anything else (ever hear of the Thunderbird? How about the Lumina? Magnum coupe? Advenger? Taurus? Charger coupe? Grand Prix coupe? Regal?......)
Agreed. The only think NASCAR and Camaro have in common is the fact that Camaros have paced NASCAR races since their infancy. Camaro's racing heritage is with Drag Racing and Trans Am.

5. NASCAR is nothing but a major advertising machine.
As if anyone didn't know this. :lol:

6. The only thing entertaining about NASCAR is listening to people who still believe it has anything to do with stock cars. :lol:
:lol:

7. Guzzling beer & watching pretty colors with massive advertizing stickers going around in circles for a few hours make-believing they are real cars doesn't intrest me unless:

a) They actually are real cars
b) They at least resemble real cars
c) They crash.
d) They have 4 legs each, and I can bet on it at the window.
NASCAR isn't about the cars. It's about the drivers and the teams. That's why most of the drivers now are young and good looking. Remember when the Miller Light Dodge was a Ford? Or when certain drivers would only drive a Chevy, or a Ford or a Dodge? Now its all about the Benjamins.

To me, NASCAR hasn't been worthwhile since the Lumina/Thunderbird rivialry of the late 1980s, let alone the Monte Carlo/Thunderbird/Grand Prix of the early 80s.
Agreed.

Sure, NASCAR popular with alot of people. But then again, so are "Boy Bands" and Brittney Spears. That doesn't mean they produce real music.

Ditto NASCAR. :devil:Don't be dissin' my Britney. :lol:

I'm not a big NASCAR fan, I've been to a race and as many people have stated going to a race live is an experience and one I'm glad I've had. It does however get boring after about 5 laps. I would love to see these cars going at it on a race track. I think the NHRA will have these cars regardless. I don't really like what the trans am series has become so I wouldn't be opposed to NASCAR taking a shot at it. I would prefer rules more like ALMS where the cars have to use a certain percentage of the production cars parts. Also they need to race on road coarses rather than ovals.

Where do people go to enjoy fast cars?

Drag Racing, SCCA racing, Australia's V8 Supercar racing, even Formula 1 racing. In those races, there is actual competition between different machines an at least an association with the car you'd actually buy.

Australia's Supercar races use actual race prepared stock cars (the stuff NASCAR forgot how to do) and typically run a race course, not a oval loop. Ditto SCCA races. Formula 1 racers at least have engines built buy car companies, and drag racing at least uses production engines or production cars (save dragsters). Even drifting is more entertaining to me.

NASCAR is all about short pitstops and personalities, NOT about cars. Good drama outsells good racing. At least IROC was straightforward about what it was, and you could settle down and see who was the best driver in identically prepared same model cars.


But to answer why I don't like NASCAR:

1. NASCAR doesn't have anything to do with muscle cars.

2. NASCAR engines suck (restrictor plates because the cars are too fast?! WTF!.....stock GTOs put out NASCAR horsepower nowadays! )

3. NASCAR car bodies have nothing to do with car bodies. Whenever any car showed a slight advantage over the last 20 years, NASCAR has hammered it down instead of other competitors adopting or coming up with something better.

4. NASCAR has done absolutely positively squat to keep Camaro alive, let alone anything else (ever hear of the Thunderbird? How about the Lumina? Magnum coupe? Advenger? Taurus? Charger coupe? Grand Prix coupe? Regal?......)

5. NASCAR is nothing but a major advertising machine.

6. The only thing entertaining about NASCAR is listening to people who still believe it has anything to do with stock cars. :lol:

6. Guzzling beer & watching pretty colors with massive advertizing stickers going around in circles for a few hours make-believing they are real cars doesn't intrest me unless:

a) They actually are real cars
b) They at least resemble real cars
c) They crash.
d) They have 4 legs each, and I can bet on it at the window.


To me, NASCAR hasn't been worthwhile since the Lumina/Thunderbird rivialry of the late 1980s, let alone the Monte Carlo/Thunderbird/Grand Prix of the early 80s.

Sure, NASCAR popular with alot of people. But then again, so are "Boy Bands" and Brittney Spears. That doesn't mean they produce real music.

Ditto NASCAR. :devil:
I'm a NASCAR fan - my favorite spectator sport.

F1 cars are incredible, as are the drivers. The racing itself is boring. And of course, the cars bear nothing - at all - in common with "muscle cars".

SCCA. Neat cars - most "stock" you'll find (though when did 'muscle cars' concentrate on cornering?). Boring racing.

I absolutely love drag racing - competing that is. Most of the stuff that is on TV is NHRA Pro classes. Those cars are restricted by various rules, and bear as much in common with your "stock" car as a Nascar Cup car does. Watching it on TV is boring - in person is a whole nuther matter, and competing is the best.

Nothing outside of better sales was going to keep Camaro alive. I have to assume you mentioned that in jest.

ALL professional racing is about advertising - even Formula 1. NASCAR simply does it better than all the rest. Combined.

jg95z28, you hit the nail on the head. I agree w/ your responses above on all points.

When I said that NASCAR has helped keep "muscle cars" alive, I think that some credence has to be given to the popularity of NASCAR, and how it has enhanced the visibility of motorsports in general. It's a loose connection, but it keeps the manufacturers somewhat involved, and while the applications are different, who's to say that some of the research that goes into building a fast car for NASCAR hasn't gone into other vehicles made by the big three? IIRC, that's what Trans AM racing did for the Camaro/Mustang back in the late 60s & early 70s. You're right, any connection btwn a production engine today and a Nascar engine would be minimal, at best.

A few other points,

I think you can still refer to a Camaro today as a 'muscle car'. It would still be considerably less sophisticated than say, A Lexus SC430 or a Mercedes SLK AMG. Yeah, they have a lot more creature comforts than they used to, but so do top end cars. I'm not particularly attached to the term, but I think it still applies.

In the end, NASCAR is about entertainment and making money. And while it can be boring to sit and watch the circles for 3 hours+, I usually roam around and have a good time, too. Get they're early and don't be in a hurry to leave.

SCCA. Neat cars - most "stock" you'll find (though when did 'muscle cars' concentrate on cornering?). Boring racing.


At least as early as 67 when the Z28 was designed specifically for SCCA within their rules :D

Color me old fashion, but I never considered the Camaro a "Muscle Car", though I know others do. :)

Bob

Color me old fashion, but I never considered the Camaro a "Muscle Car", though I know others do. :)

Bob

I'm with Bob.

Any big motored, ill mannered, slob of a car, can be called a "Muscle Car". Camaro of course, is much more than that.

First off even at resrictor plate races the cars are putting down more horse power than a GTO. Second they have different power motors for every track.. 1.5 mile-2.5 mile tracks have higher hp motors short tracks and road courses have lower hp motors but higher tourqe motors to allow them to get up and go out of the turns. Third you will start seeing the car of tomarrow on certain short tracks next year plus talladega in the fall race..NASCAR will not put a smaller coup sports car in the line up. The purpose of the Car Of Tomarrow is to put a wider taller car in the line up for driver safty. The drivers seat is moved 4 inches closer to the center of the car for side impact safty. The roof is taller for safty of taller drivers like Waltrip DJ and Elliot Sadler, but also benifits all drivers, there will be a perminet emergancy roof escape hatch, along with a raised clear spoiler to allow more down force at higher speeds and so nascar can try to due away with carderator ristrictors or make them smaller. You will start to see these cars coming into the circut next season, then at more tracks in 08 and then at all tracks in 09.. So unless they are plaining to to widen and make these smaller sport coupes taller then will not be anywhere close to the plains of the Car Of Tomarrow.. so simply NASCAR will not be bring a small sport coupe in to replace the cars now especialy after spending millions of dollars testing and researching a new style race car and not after making team owners spending millions to replace the cars they are running now. The Car of Tomarrow is already projected to run owners 325 million to replace the current stock car...oh yea nascar has taken the stock out of stock car for safty and nothing but safty

And one bright way to look at toyota being in the series just remeber it is a GM platformed small block under those hoods

Trust me on this I watched NASCARs 4 hour televised meeting of speed in January
And for who ever said the car of tomarrow was slower, well i guess you didn't watch them driving two of them around daytona during speedweeks.. only two cars on the track putting down faster lap times than a pack of current cars

Color me old fashion, but I never considered the Camaro a "Muscle Car", though I know others do. :)

Bob

Strangely, Ive always considered Pony cars small muscle cars... Im not sure I even know what a Muscle car means anymore. Does it have to be American. If not what precludes Z350, or Supra from Muscle Car status? Has to be a 4 seater? What about BMW? Too expensive? What about the G35? What about GTO which can coner better than a pony car Mustang?

Does Muscle car mean strictly straight line performance? I always thought it meant a Small block or big block car that produced a ton of HP or TQ, 4 seater (though I thought of the AC Cobra, and Viper as one) fast in the 1/4 but may or may not be able to handle...

It can be whatever you want - define it however you wish in order to suit your needs.

However, for me, a "Muscle Car" is not sports car in V6 clothing, is not a Camaro or Mustang at all, must turn the rear wheels (sorry new Impy), and most certainly is American (though I suppose that could change in the future - haven't seen it yet, based on my narrow definition of the term "Muscle Car").

In my mind, the only current offering that fits is the GTO. In yours that might not be the case. And that's ok with me.

Bob

If the big 3 are wasting millions of $$$ into nascar, I guess somebody better tell Toyota because i'm sure they'll dump more into their car...

As for having a race car use the factory sheetmetal, I'm sure the racers are really going to like the new retro front ends!

Bob and Charlie nailed it. Back in the day Camaros were never considered "muscle cars". Muscle cars were the GTOs, Chevelle SSs, Dodge and Plymouth Hemis, Buick GSXs... etc... the big heavy two door 5-passenger sedans with big motors. The lighter Camaros, Mustangs and even AMC AMX were considered "pony cars" mainly because they cornered as well as they went fast in a straight line. Muscle car meant raw brutish straight line acceleration to hell with handling and cornering. Pony cars did it all.

In my humble opinion, calling a Camaro a muscle car is an insult.

In my mind, the only current offering that fits is the GTO. In yours that might not be the case. And that's ok with me.

Bob
So IYO the Charger in any form is not a muscle car?

It can be whatever you want - define it however you wish in order to suit your needs.

However, for me, a "Muscle Car" is not sports car in V6 clothing, is not a Camaro or Mustang at all, must turn the rear wheels (sorry new Impy), and most certainly is American (though I suppose that could change in the future - haven't seen it yet, based on my narrow definition of the term "Muscle Car").

In my mind, the only current offering that fits is the GTO. In yours that might not be the case. And that's ok with me.

Bob


I can see how you would say Camaro is not a Muscle car because the Z28 was built for handleing and SS kinda was too. I have to say though, when I think SS 396 Big Block and COPO and Yenko 427 Big block, all I think is Muscle car. The other thing was there was a 4th Gen Trans Am TV add before the car went on Hiatus that marketed the Trans Am as "TransAm The last Muscle car."

Its probably one of those things where if enough people say it one way thats the way it becomes. Like "Motor City" when the same people will tell you your car is powerd by an engine.

So IYO the Charger in any form is not a muscle car?
Honestly, I forgot about the Charger. I suppose it would fit my admittedly narrow definition. :)

Bob