GM reportedly to axe some future programs this month.

http://www.accordingtoahha.com/

The crisis at GM continues as word from inside is the axe is about to fall as it's planning "significant" slashing of vehicle programs in addition to reductions in design, engineering and program management personnel. Anything that isn't profitable is under review in what is considered to be a serious cutback. Rumors have an announcement forthcoming at the end of March, though it's not known if this is an internal only announcement only.



Since last June's design preview, at least three high volume programs have been cancelled, the Trailblazer, Envoy and Ion. The Trailblazer and Envoy programs were scaled back, but are still in jeopardy as the segment declines and moves towards unibody derived crossovers. GM has been having a difficult time in trying to make a business case for the Lambda minivans as well as the Sub-Theta programs. Plans for a new large front drive platform were also abandoned last year.

The Pontiac brand faces the greatest hurdle as it's now the weakest brand in terms of future vehicle development followed by Buick.

no ion-wasn't it going to be the opel astra:confused:

no ion-wasn't it going to be the opel astra:confused:

Well the NG Ion will now be the Opel Astra.

Back at the design preview they were shown a totally different, and beautiful car, that was going to be the Ion replacement. This was the car that was cancelled.

I'm curious if the Ion makes sense if they're going to have a Cobalt and G5.

Well the Ion is the Opel Astra now.

.
http://www.automotivechronicles.com/articles/2005/mar/02/images/b33180-opel-astra-diesel.jpg

http://www.edmunds.com/media/reviews/top10/05.least.expensive.vehicles/05.saturn.ion.500.jpg



yup same car.......:confused:

http://www.automotivechronicles.com/articles/2005/mar/02/images/b33180-opel-astra-diesel.jpg

http://www.edmunds.com/media/reviews/top10/05.least.expensive.vehicles/05.saturn.ion.500.jpg



yup same car.......:confused:

No, Astra is the Ions replacement come 2008ish

If they axe the GMT360's I hope they build a GMT355 SUV. It would be nice to have a real truck based SUV the size of the early 90s GMC Jimmy.

No, Astra is the Ions replacement come 2008ish.but according to this website the ion replacement is cancelled.

Based on what I have read here about how bright the future of GM looks (Chevy in particular) I don't think this news is too significant in that the programs about to be axed will not sorely be missed.

I mean really, would we miss the next generation of GM minivans? Odds are no one will even notice, as GM has never built a seriously competitive minivan in the first place. Ford figured that out when they decided to drop the Freestar.

The worrisome part is obviously Pontiac. But, with a new GTO apparently coming along with a Cobalt variant, I don't see them being completely starved of new product.

but according to this website the ion replacement is cancelled.
No the GMX002, former next Ion, was cancelled. The next Ion is going to be a rebadge of the Astra and the Ion name will actually disappear.

No the GMX002, former next Ion, was cancelled. The next Ion is going to be a rebadge of the Astra and the Ion name will actually disappear.
got it now thanks!:cool:

http://www.automotivechronicles.com/articles/2005/mar/02/images/b33180-opel-astra-diesel.jpg

http://www.edmunds.com/media/reviews/top10/05.least.expensive.vehicles/05.saturn.ion.500.jpg



yup same car.......:confused:

Oh...no I meant the that the NG Ion will now be the Astra. My fault I worded that poorly.

It would be sad if GM abondoned the minivan market. I would agree that the current vehicles aren't really competitive, but they sure were when they came out in the late 90's.

What is Pontiac not getting that makes it the weakest brand for future development? For that matter, what exactly are the programs that are under development at GM for all the brands?

It would be sad if GM abondoned the minivan market. I would agree that the current vehicles aren't really competitive, but they sure were when they came out in the late 90's.

What is Pontiac not getting that makes it the weakest brand for future development? For that matter, what exactly are the programs that are under development at GM for all the brands?
Pontiacs that have been hinted at as being worked on: Next G6...that is it.

Buicks next Lacrosse on EP II, RWD sedan, possible RWD (if not then FWD/AWD) convertible, Lambda Van.

Chevy, loads here doesn't need to be worried about.

SAAB: next 9-3, 9-5, 9-4x crossover on T/E, possible 9-6x based on Lambda.

Saturn: Rebadging of a lot of Opels, Astra, Aura, Outlook.

GMC pretty much what Chevy trucks get.

Caddy, Sigma II of currnet cars, SRX, and possible RWD DTS on Zeta.

Hummer: H4 and next H2, all it needs.

By looking at Pontiac and Mercury's future portfolios you can see both are a shell of their former selves. A new RWD sedan/coupe for Pontiac will certainly perk things up. As will the G5 if it is more than a rebadged Cobalt. Next Vibe is up in the air right now and may not even happen. Solstice has a short shelf life and that was known from the start. A possibility is that Kappa gets whored out to every division with only 2 brands having ones out at a time. IE Solstice dies and Chevy gets a version, then Buick when the Saturn dies, then Caddy and then it is totally done.

Buicks next Lacrosse on EP II, RWD sedan, possible RWD (if not then FWD/AWD) convertible, Lambda Van.

Last I heard there was never a plan for Buick to get one of the forthcoming lambda vans. But plans change all the time so I can't say for sure.

The programs to which we're familliar are still either safe or simply delayed I hear.

The cuts are to programs that can be done equally well on either another chassis or another model, as opposed to creating a whole new structure (or variation of an existing one.

As you may notice, Saturn is for all intents and purposes dead, and will become essentially Opel-USA. Some of the crossovers and an chassis platform will be cancelled.

I'm guessing the chassis platform axed is the large FWD-AWD chassis, which will be killed in favor of the new Zeta, & a crossover line which will be replaced by the upcoming Outlook-Enclave vehicles, an improved version of the chassis used by Equinox, Vue, & Torrent, and the revised Sigma based Cadillac crossover. All are scheduled for introduction or restyling over the next few years.

As you may notice, Saturn is for all intents and purposes dead, and will become essentially Opel-USA.
this is exactly what I was thinking. and I say hurray to that. GM basically elimiated an entire brand (engineering, design, etc) without actually getting rid of a brand. since we don't have Opel here (at least not in years) and Europe doesn't get Saturn, it's perfect. Kinda like what GM is already doing with Opel/Holden/Vauxhall in Europe & Aus. Only now /Saturn joins in. Finally.

about two years ago, didn't we all have a discussion about how GM should do this? maybe they have lurkers here. :shock:

What if GM decides that it only wants one plant making Zeta cars, working flat out...3 shifts per day, 7 days per week....like DCX's BAP facility?

What's that? 300,000 or so units per year being built with max efficiency and profitability.

Figure Camaro and Impala are in those numbers....and not much else.

Just wild speculation.....

No, Astra is the Ions replacement come 2008ish

If they axe the GMT360's I hope they build a GMT355 SUV. It would be nice to have a real truck based SUV the size of the early 90s GMC Jimmy.

Is that really a good idea?

I read an intersting article a few years back on why the Ford Explorer kicked the Blazers ass in sales.

The Explorer was NOT based on the little Ranger.

Where as the Blazer was just an S-10. This severely compromised the Blazer and put it way back of the Explorer. All the short comings of the S-10 went right into the Blazer.

Now Trailblazer got rave reviews when it first came out and is selling very well. Its a few years old now yes.

If GM had half a brain--they would have never developed the 355's and made pickups out of the 360 platform. The 355's seem very small to me. Should have gone mid sized like the Dakota and Toyota.

Then we'd have the I6 too! :D

SUVs converted into a pickup make a much better idea then a truck converted to an SUV.

Just my take.

I would not be real concerned with this article.

Programs come and go all the time.

As to TrailBlazer.......don't write the obit just yet. The numbers are still quite healthy....and while I agree that more and more people are moving to crossovers, there is still a market out there for a traditional mid-size sport ute on a body/frame that can pull some significant weight.

All new design? No..........re-engineered and refined perhaps? Yes.

GMT355 and GMT360 are different in terms of the suspension. You would not want a Truck on a GMT360 if you really "used" the Truck.

The GMT360 was made slightly larger then the GMT355, but with a softer suspension for SUV owners who don't need the "Truck-Abilities" like the GMT355.

Ford Explorer was a pioneer and can sell on name alone (although not as well recently I believe).

The Blazer was a nice vehicle that was durable, powerful, and you could downright abuse the hell out of it. The only thing that hurt it was stupid crap like Oil Lines that only last 60k miles, Fuel Sending Units that go out at 50k miles, Front ABS Hubs that don't make it 100k. Little things like that eat at most peoples wallets (that can't do the work themselves) and gives them a bad taste. I thought the Blazer was an excellent vehicle (short of the minor annoyances above) and I really wished that they did an SUV on GMT355 as I would prefer it over the GMT360...

As to TrailBlazer.......don't write the obit just yet. The numbers are still quite healthy....and while I agree that more and more people are moving to crossovers, there is still a market out there for a traditional mid-size sport ute on a body/frame that can pull some significant weight.

All new design? No..........re-engineered and refined perhaps? Yes.

How soon for a 6 speed automatic?

GMT355 and GMT360 are different in terms of the suspension. You would not want a Truck on a GMT360 if you really "used" the Truck.

Seems to be an issue they were able to overcome for the full size SUV's and trucks.

Are we going to see the GTO killed for the 14 millionth time?

I would not be real concerned with this article.

Programs come and go all the time.

As to TrailBlazer.......don't write the obit just yet. The numbers are still quite healthy....and while I agree that more and more people are moving to crossovers, there is still a market out there for a traditional mid-size sport ute on a body/frame that can pull some significant weight.

All new design? No..........re-engineered and refined perhaps? Yes.

Great to hear...my dad is on his second TB now (first was an '02 LS, now an '05 LT), and he's loved them...especially the new one. The only complaint he has at all with the '05 is the plasticky dash, which hopefully GM will address during the restyle...I imagine they would.

There IS a market for a body on frame SUV...no question. For those who tow (and there are many) who don't want a truck, this type of vehicle is ideal. If GM can stiffen the frame, and make the 360s more roomy inside (the front footwells are awful small...), I can see a successful restyle lasting and being viable for a long time...

As for the Ion, is the new Astra that "knockout" model Lutz has talked of? The car he claims is so good, they won't even clinic it because everyone says "Holy Mackerel!" when they see it? If THAT is the car that is cancelled, I'd shoot someone. The Ion is wretched. I went on a first date with a girl the other night who owns an '04 Ion 4 door. I do not like that car...at all. Of course, I won't be telling her that :D

(Also ducking, in the hopes '96 Camaro B4C didn't just read this...)

How soon for a 6 speed automatic?


It won't be soon!

It won't be soon!

That's what I figured.

Is that really a good idea?

I read an intersting article a few years back on why the Ford Explorer kicked the Blazers ass in sales.

The Explorer was NOT based on the little Ranger.

Where as the Blazer was just an S-10. This severely compromised the Blazer and put it way back of the Explorer. All the short comings of the S-10 went right into the Blazer.

Now Trailblazer got rave reviews when it first came out and is selling very well. Its a few years old now yes.

If GM had half a brain--they would have never developed the 355's and made pickups out of the 360 platform. The 355's seem very small to me. Should have gone mid sized like the Dakota and Toyota.

Then we'd have the I6 too! :D

SUVs converted into a pickup make a much better idea then a truck converted to an SUV.

Just my take.

I didn't say a 355 SUV to replace the 360's. If they 360s ever got replaced by Lamda then offering a GMT355 SUV also would be the way to go.

A GMT355 SUV would also be targeted more at the Nissan Xterra, Jeep Liberty, and Toyota FJ. You could use all the Canyon/Colorado body parts to keep it cheaper and different than the H3

What's the push for 6-speed automatics for? For media attention? Or are you guys wanting a trailblazer with F1 paddle shifters? Did I miss a press release about GM cutting broad torque range?

I could see a 5-speed auto doing well but 6?

As for the Ion, is the new Astra that "knockout" model Lutz has talked of? The car he claims is so good, they won't even clinic it because everyone says "Holy Mackerel!" when they see it? If THAT is the car that is cancelled, I'd shoot someone. The Ion is wretched. I went on a first date with a girl the other night who owns an '04 Ion 4 door. I do not like that car...at all. Of course, I won't be telling her that :D

(Also ducking, in the hopes '96 Camaro B4C didn't just read this...)

No , that car did get canned . It was too good looking to be thrown away though imo . If Pontiac had any sense at all , they would use it for the G5 eventually since the Saturn Astra will now be a Euro spec Opel Astra .

What's the push for 6-speed automatics for? For media attention? Or are you guys wanting a trailblazer with F1 paddle shifters? Did I miss a press release about GM cutting broad torque range?

I could see a 5-speed auto doing well but 6?

Because the 6 speed is already done. And if the 6L80 were on the TrailBlazer SS, a 3.08 axle ratio would give you the same torque multiplication as the current 4.10/4L60 combo.

Because the 6 speed is already done. And if the 6L80 were on the TrailBlazer SS, a 3.08 axle ratio would give you the same torque multiplication as the current 4.10/4L60 combo.

yeah, same torque multiplication for the lower gears, but much better gas mileage for cruising.. it certainly would be nice if they put the A6 in there

Why is GM so goddamned slow with their AT development. WHY? It seemed like back in the '90s, every car mag raved about a GM AT tranny...now they're also rans. I don't get it!

Though highly unlikely, I'd like to see a GMT-360 based mini Avalanche or would you call it Trailblazer "Sportback". I think it would fill a niche market very well for people not wanting a full-size Avalanche but wanting something more robust than the 4-door Colorado. Give it some unique styling like the Avalanche has vs the full-size trucks. And........wait for it........with the demise of the SSR, what a perfect replacement a LS2 powered SS "Sportback".

Whose up to the challenge to make a photochop?

yeah, same torque multiplication for the lower gears, but much better gas mileage for cruising.. it certainly would be nice if they put the A6 in there

Yeah, anything would help. Most TB SS owners are reporting a "real world" fuel economy of about 13-14 mpg.

Why is GM so goddamned slow with their AT development. WHY? It seemed like back in the '90s, every car mag raved about a GM AT tranny...now they're also rans. I don't get it!

Automatic transmissions take a long time for anyone to develop - GM isn't terribly poor in this regard. The folks at ZF and Aisin take just as long to design new ground-up slushboxes.

The difference comes from when each OEM decides to start development of a new transmission. GM failed to put its money on the table early enough, and is now suffering as a result. Development and tooling ain't cheap, but one has to wonder if procrastinating was worth the black eyes that the company is now suffering as a result. Certainly, The Rick and other beancounters have run complicated spreadsheet calculations and "know" the answer to this question.

For what it's worth, I thought that the 4L60E was a decent match to the TBSS' LS2 (that engine has such a flat torque curve...), but certainly a bit more gearing on the highway would be nice. I averaged about 15.1 MPG highway with the AWD one I tested. My Impala SS with the LT4 stroker gets right around 20 MPG on the highway; even better if I don't drive the car the way it's intended to be driven :D

If I bought a TBSS, I'd be less worried about the shift performance of the 'box and highly concerned with durability, especially if I did any reprogramming that would allow me to actually obtain all the power for which I paid. I'm thinking that with a highly powerful V8 on one end and a very sophisticated AWD system on the other (one that's absolutely awesome at finding traction), the transmission is going to lead a short and tortured life. I'd be a lot happier with the 4L80E, even though it sucks up power and probably doesn't come close to fitting the TB's floorpan.

The 4L60E is borderline in its standard applications. There have been many reports of failure when the vehicle is used to tow alot.

One has to remember that the 4L60E is just a distant relative of the 700R4. That is not a lineage that anyone would hope to have.

I agree that that the 4L80E is really the only transmission that GM should have put in the Trailblazer SS. To handicap the engine with all kinds of management systems, just to allow the transmission to survive.......... is assinine. Ford figured out how to put the 4R100 in the Lightning (was only used in the Superduty), so GM should do the same for the SS.

When you start to see the programmers coming out, that eliminate the management systems........... you will see 4L60E's dropping like flies, in the Trailblazer SS's. They were having alot of these same problems in the Silverado SS's............ with 345hp.

The 4L60E is borderline in its standard applications. There have been many reports of failure when the vehicle is used to tow alot.


Just look at the standard engine offerings when the 700R4 was launched. It's a transmission that has been overwhelmed by engine technology for quite some time. It's a bit frustrating to have one in a LT1 B-body and know that the car will consume 2-3 transmissions before the engine begins to show any signs of wear.

For the record, I don't think that the light-duty Dodge and Ford 4-speed autos are anything to get excited about, either. Transmission shortcomings are one of the biggest reasons that I generally prefer a 3/4- or 1-ton pickup.

Though highly unlikely, I'd like to see a GMT-360 based mini Avalanche or would you call it Trailblazer "Sportback". I think it would fill a niche market very well for people not wanting a full-size Avalanche but wanting something more robust than the 4-door Colorado. Give it some unique styling like the Avalanche has vs the full-size trucks. And........wait for it........with the demise of the SSR, what a perfect replacement a LS2 powered SS "Sportback".

Whose up to the challenge to make a photochop?

Basically that GMT-360 sportback was the Envoy XUV

If I bought a TBSS, I'd be less worried about the shift performance of the 'box and highly concerned with durability, especially if I did any reprogramming that would allow me to actually obtain all the power for which I paid. I'm thinking that with a highly powerful V8 on one end and a very sophisticated AWD system on the other (one that's absolutely awesome at finding traction), the transmission is going to lead a short and tortured life. I'd be a lot happier with the 4L80E, even though it sucks up power and probably doesn't come close to fitting the TB's floorpan.
But with the situation GM is in, what do you do. Get people into the car with "shift performance" or have that vehicle blow the trans (and pay for recalls and get a bad name in the press). It seems hard for GM to do both. It seems that every car has its faults. But I may be a bit fecicious here. Some part has to go first. It may be the rear end, trans, engine, etc. and maybe as enthusiasts, we'll always complain about the weak link.

Basically that GMT-360 sportback was the Envoy XUV

Nah....That one doesn't count

Because the 6 speed is already done. And if the 6L80 were on the TrailBlazer SS, a 3.08 axle ratio would give you the same torque multiplication as the current 4.10/4L60 combo.

Exactly. You can have your cake, and eat it too.

The 2007 Yukon Denali can do 0-60 in 6.2 seconds now?
http://www.caranddriver.com/article.asp?section_id=16&article_id=10771

I'm sure the the new 6.2L V8 helped.. but I also bet they gained half a second with the 6 speed tranny.. short gears, hopefully better shifting.. yet still keeps the nice od's.

Nah....That one doesn't count
Why doesn't the XUV count?

As someone who understands selling GMC's and SUV's, I would find it close to insane for them to can the 360's. It's the perfect middle ground for someone who thinks a "cute-ute" is too small and a Full size Yukon is too big. It's a great product, that gives you the best of both worlds, great, size, power, room, and towing capacity.

Also, the sales manager dad didn't take well to hearing this rumor. He's already complained to the regional rep and is threatening to send letters to all the people at GM he knows saying that canceling the BOF's would a be "one of their greatest errors of judgement"

As someone who understands selling GMC's and SUV's, I would find it close to insane for them to can the 360's. It's the perfect middle ground for someone who thinks a "cute-ute" is too small and a Full size Yukon is too big. It's a great product, that gives you the best of both worlds, great, size, power, room, and towing capacity.


Agreed that the GMT360 is about perfect for many people. It was the GMT370 that was the real "WTF?!?" - that was not one of GM's smarter moves in recent memory.

With the redesigned Explorer doing so poorly in the market, this would have been a perfect time to get a revised 360 in dealers.