Where can i get ahold of the machine draftings....

Where can i get ahold of the machine draftings for LS and LT heads, intakes and blocks. I'm looking for deminsions, tolerances and GD&T.

Where can i get ahold of the machine draftings for LS and LT heads, intakes and blocks. I'm looking for deminsions, tolerances and GD&T.

That's going to be a big problem. GM rarely lets out product drawings, and the aftermarket folks like Dart, AFR aren't about to publish their stuff either.

The amount of information needed to describe all the dimensions on a head or composite intake manifold is huge. My guess is that our PCs couldn't handle it.

Your best bet would be to measure the parts themselves. A CMM would be useful here.


What is "GD&T"?

"Geometric Dimension and Tolerance"

"Geometric Dimension and Tolerance"

Thanks!

FWIW, in the draw-it-on-paper days, an engine block drawing was on a piece of paper about 48 in. x 120 in. or longer. There could be multiple sheets this size. There would be separate drawings for the raw casting and the machined block. 1000s of man hours to complete these.

That's going to be a big problem. GM rarely lets out product drawings, and the aftermarket folks like Dart, AFR aren't about to publish their stuff either.

The amount of information needed to describe all the dimensions on a head or composite intake manifold is huge. My guess is that our PCs couldn't handle it.

Your best bet would be to measure the parts themselves. A CMM would be useful here.


What is "GD&T"?


I don't think that they'd be too big to fit on the computer. Some of the projects i have had to complete were huge, with all the cross sections and alternate views. Thank you though for the responses, i'm not surpriesed to hear that, but ya never know until you ask. Thanks again!

Yeah I tried to get some LT1 cylinderhead blueprints one time....A guy who used to work for GM actually laughed at me when i told him my intentions:( Why do you need them if you dont mind my asking?

Can we say enough information that it would have to be put on micro film??? LOL

Yeah good look getting that info.

Thats like calling AFR and asking them for their CNC programs.......

Yeah I tried to get some LT1 cylinderhead blueprints one time....A guy who used to work for GM actually laughed at me when i told him my intentions:( Why do you need them if you dont mind my asking?

I need to design some parts for my major and then machine them. I have been tossing around ideas and i was wanting to get a hold of a set of drawings so i wouldn't have to spend the massive amount of time using a universal measuring machine to do it.

I need to design some parts for my major and then machine them. I have been tossing around ideas and i was wanting to get a hold of a set of drawings so i wouldn't have to spend the massive amount of time using a universal measuring machine to do it.

"Design" or reverse engineer? There's a big difference.

Why choose a complicated casting anyways? Is this machined part suppose to be functional or is it just a design/machine exercise? What about a V8 engine block in 1/4-scale? I'm talking just a "close" representation here. The information needed for a representation wouldn't be too difficult to find.

-Mindgame

"Design" or reverse engineer? There's a big difference.

Why choose a complicated casting anyways? Is this machined part suppose to be functional or is it just a design/machine exercise? What about a V8 engine block in 1/4-scale? I'm talking just a "close" representation here. The information needed for a representation wouldn't be too difficult to find.

-Mindgame

No, Design is my main goal. I want to get all the deminsions and tolerances so i can use an intake and exhaust port design that i have been working on and an intake manifold that i have also been working on also. I just need factory LT1 or LS1 drawings to save time, but it looks like i'm gunna have to measure everything.

I don't think that they'd be too big to fit on the computer.

Keep in mind that OS is probably still using an Intel 486. Sitting right next to it is his slide rule and other favorite, the abacus. :D

OK... Design... with an element of reverse engineering. :)

Sounds like fun for someone. I think you summed it up pretty well though when you said ~spending massive amounts of time~.

Good luck.

-Mindgame

Keep in mind that OS is probably still using an Intel 486. Sitting right next to it is his slide rule and other favorite, the abacus. :D

OK... Design... with an element of reverse engineering. :)

Sounds like fun for someone. I think you summed it up pretty well though when you said ~spending massive amounts of time~.

Good luck.

-Mindgame

LOL!

My reference to paper drawing size referred to the amount of information on the drawing. Of course you could get the gigabytes of drawing into your computer wb3s if you had the appropriate CAD software that the OEMs use.



I'm with MG here, wb3s. Methinks you are getting into something WAY more complex than you realize. If you are trying to smoke a non-engineer instructor by designing ports and manifolds in order to get a grade, it might work, but if you are actually "designing" ports for LT and LS heads, which are vastly different, you are going about it the wrong way, IMO (never Humble).

No offense, but the terminology like "machine draftings" and "universal measuring machine" does not seem to be what most folks call these items. "Part drawings", "blueprints" (?) and "CMM" aka "Coordinate Measuring Machine" are what folks in the business use.

FWIW, measuring everything won't give you much clue as to tolerances.

Good luck!

FWIW, I was at SEMA and we were actually approached by a rep from GM. Long story short is that GM is now offering up CAD drawings and technical info about their engines and vehicles. I know, I know... I thought the guy was pulling my leg too, but they way it was put to me is that GM now has a new outlook on this stuff. They offer it up to help the aftermarket with ease of producing new products. They know that in certain markets the aftermarket is what helps drive the sale of their product.

If you havent tried recently it might be worth while to look into it again. You might be suprised to find GM offering up this type of information.

FWIW, I was at SEMA and we were actually approached by a rep from GM. Long story short is that GM is now offering up CAD drawings and technical info about their engines and vehicles. I know, I know... I thought the guy was pulling my leg too, but they way it was put to me is that GM now has a new outlook on this stuff. They offer it up to help the aftermarket with ease of producing new products. They know that in certain markets the aftermarket is what helps drive the sale of their product.

If you havent tried recently it might be worth while to look into it again. You might be suprised to find GM offering up this type of information.

Cool!

A long time ago (1970s) I was making some THM400 parts for the aftermarket. They had been (poorly) reverse engineered by my customer. I mentioned it to my "deep throat" @ GMPT and received a complete part drawing, with the General's blessing. They wanted the aftermarket to produce good parts. The drawing was so specific as to dictate which direction a shaft should rotate when being ground. You machininsts or production engineers should kow why. A cigar or beer on me if you're the first with the correct answer.

Dad gummit... I read something about this a while back OS. You have me really thinking now. :lol:

Has something to do with the microscopic burrs and the direction in which those burrs face is important. Common sense would lead me to say that they should "point" away from the direction of rotation.

Am I even close?

-Mindgame

BTW Project... do you have any contact information?

-Mindgame

LOL!

My reference to paper drawing size referred to the amount of information on the drawing. Of course you could get the gigabytes of drawing into your computer wb3s if you had the appropriate CAD software that the OEMs use.



I'm with MG here, wb3s. Methinks you are getting into something WAY more complex than you realize. If you are trying to smoke a non-engineer instructor by designing ports and manifolds in order to get a grade, it might work, but if you are actually "designing" ports for LT and LS heads, which are vastly different, you are going about it the wrong way, IMO (never Humble).

No offense, but the terminology like "machine draftings" and "universal measuring machine" does not seem to be what most folks call these items. "Part drawings", "blueprints" (?) and "CMM" aka "Coordinate Measuring Machine" are what folks in the business use.

FWIW, measuring everything won't give you much clue as to tolerances.

Good luck!

Parts drawings....machine draftings.....cmm or a universal measure machine, I don't see where you get off assuming cause i'm using a different lingo that it's some kind of wet dream of mine to pretend that i'm trying to out due a "non-engineer" instructor. The assumptions you some of you guys make, I have to sit back and laugh sometime. If I didn't know what I was doing or what I was trying to get into, I don't think I would have asked the question. I'm jumping from copying throttle bodies to full out projects that I have been contemplating and building up as I have advanced through my degrees. I did not ask for the boost in confidence, just a little nudge in the right direction considering I know how hard it is to get draftings from anyone.

Project, can you pm me an email or number of someone that I can get ahold of to talk about getting a set of machine draftings. Thanks!

I didnt take down the guys contact info but the party I was with I belive did. Let me make a few phone calls today and see if they still have the info.

Dad gummit... I read something about this a while back OS. You have me really thinking now. :lol:

Has something to do with the microscopic burrs and the direction in which those burrs face is important. Common sense would lead me to say that they should "point" away from the direction of rotation.

Am I even close?

-Mindgame


What do you smoke/drink? (at least the legal stuff.)

Yes, it's about how the burrs lay. Shouldn't you also polish a crank the same way?

The shaft in question spun in an oil seal which kept trans oil in the engine. Seal life was important, so the direction of the "lay" was important.

Parts drawings....machine draftings.....cmm or a universal measure machine, I don't see where you get off assuming cause i'm using a different lingo that it's some kind of wet dream of mine to pretend that i'm trying to out due a "non-engineer" instructor. The assumptions you some of you guys make, I have to sit back and laugh sometime. If I didn't know what I was doing or what I was trying to get into, I don't think I would have asked the question. I'm jumping from copying throttle bodies to full out projects that I have been contemplating and building up as I have advanced through my degrees. I did not ask for the boost in confidence, just a little nudge in the right direction considering I know how hard it is to get draftings from anyone.

Project, can you pm me an email or number of someone that I can get ahold of to talk about getting a set of machine draftings. Thanks!

When i was in college i took several drafting classes as well as several machine classes and no one ever used the terms "machine draftings or universal measure machine". We used "blueprints, draftings, prints, and Cmm."
if your serious about getting into this buisness I would sujest using the proper terms and lables of things. becuse not using them could confuse some people or make you look just plain dumb. If you were to ask me what a universal measure machine was then i might say its a ruler or tape measure. even tho i new what you were talking about. Then i would correct you and tell you to go back to school. But enough of that im not here to flame.

If you think that you can design a set of heads from scratch and actualy have them perform then you have another thing comming. It takes years of r&d to even come up with the blueprints muchless all of the machine work involved. but good luck and i do hope you meet your goal.





oh yea btw talking to members on this board like that isnt going to get you anywhere. You ask for help then get mean or cocky in a post and then ask for help again. You are the one who assumed that we already knew your whole story. With your first post we have no idea what your background is so its left up to us to speculate.


oldss
i rember one of the teachers telling me about that in class a few years back. he had microscopic photos of a shaft for something and you could see the burs.

oldss
i rember one of the teachers telling me about that in class a few years back. he had microscopic photos of a shaft for something and you could see the burs.

Grinding is a material removal process much like single point turning, except the cutting tools are the individual grains in the grinding wheel. Each grain that cuts makes a VERY tiny chip, so there is direction to the cut.

Grinding hard steel lika a piston pin can quite easily give an average surface roughness of Ra 5 or less. In order to Diamond Like Carbon (Casidiam) coat the pin the surface finish needs to be Ra 0.5 or less. Getting there is a challenge. The DLC is so hard that if you coat a "rough" surface (Ra 1.0+) you effectively make a diamond file out of the part.

I dont have access to the guy anymore. But I spoke to a friend and I was told that if you are a member of SEMA then you should have no trouble getting that contact info thru SEMA. Any of you guys a SEMA member? Try researching it thru them. I wish I could do more, or paid more attention to the guy we were talking to at the show. Actually I just wish I grabbed his card... But I was standing next to him when he said that GM is offering up this type of info so companies dont have to reverse engineer new products. They actually want the aftermarket stuff to work.

Sorry guys, I wish I could be of more help.

Several years ago, a friend of mine who works for a private engineering firm, showed me a LS1 corvette head which they had reverse engineered for a customer. They had a machine which scanned it with a laser, outputted the 3-D coordinates to the work station, and created a near exact solid model in Pro-E with about a million measurement/data points to approximate the part. This is how it is done if you have the money for the equipment. Of course, the problem of figuring out the tolerances is a big job as was previously mentioned.

What do you smoke/drink? (at least the legal stuff.)

Yes, it's about how the burrs lay. Shouldn't you also polish a crank the same way?

The shaft in question spun in an oil seal which kept trans oil in the engine. Seal life was important, so the direction of the "lay" was important.

OS,

I'll be at the next PRI. Let's square this one away there shall we?

Bring a couple of Cohibas and some Lagavulin. :)

As for polishing, I'm thinking that it's performed in the opposite direction to reduce the size of the "burrs" & provides a better surface finish. No personal experience mind you... just what I remember reading.

FWIW, I don't recall where I read this article but believe it was in a "machine design" magazine or something of that sort. I'll try to dig it up.

-Mindgame

OS,

I'll be at the next PRI. Let's square this one away there shall we?

Bring a couple of Cohibas and some Lagavulin. :)

As for polishing, I'm thinking that it's performed in the opposite direction to reduce the size of the "burrs" & provides a better surface finish. No personal experience mind you... just what I remember reading.

FWIW, I don't recall where I read this article but believe it was in a "machine design" magazine or something of that sort. I'll try to dig it up.

-Mindgame

I'll pass on the seegars, but Lagavulin 16 is one of my favorite Islay singles. I like it with a good Columbian coffee in the late evening. Have you tried Caol Ila 12? It's not as intense, but for about $20 less it's a pretty good Islay.

No mater which way a shaft or crank journal was ground, polish it so the "burrs" lay in the direction of rotation. It takes some powerful magnification to determine grinding direction if the finish is Ra 8 or so.

I have some very finicky customers for the custom bearing rollers we produce, but I've not heard any of them say they check grinding direction on rollers when assembling bearings. Practically it only works to specify grind direction if the shaft has different ends so it is always assembled the same way like a cam or crank.

OK, so do engine builders who build reverse rotation engines really polish cranks in the reverse direction?

I'll pass on the seegars, but Lagavulin 16 is one of my favorite Islay singles. I like it with a good Columbian coffee in the late evening. Have you tried Caol Ila 12? It's not as intense, but for about $20 less it's a pretty good Islay.

No mater which way a shaft or crank journal was ground, polish it so the "burrs" lay in the directon of rotation. It takes some powerful magnification to determine grinding direction if the finish is Ra 8 or so.

I have some very finicky customers for the custom bearing rollers we produce, but I've not heard any of them say they check grinding direction on rollers when assembling bearings. Practically it only works to specify grind direction if the shaft has different ends so it is always assembled the same way like a cam or crank.

OK, so do engine builders who build reverse rotation engines really polish cranks in the reverse direction?

Yes sir, Caol Ila is a fine one... also one of my favorites. I always keep a bottle around for special occasions. :)

You a fan of Laphroaig at all? Very intense... definitely an acquired taste but not something I really care for.

Thanks for the thoughts on polish direction OS. This stuff has always intrigued me even though I am not in the manufacturing trades. Not on the shop floor side of the coin anyways. Just like knowing how and why things work.

You got me on the last one. ;)

-Mindgame

You a fan of Laphroaig at all? Very intense... definitely an acquired taste but not something I really care for.
-Mindgame

You could say that.... that 10 year old stuff makes my noise hairs curl when the old man brings it out. At least the 15 at least SMELLS drinkable, not akin to terpintine.

I'll let you guys stick with the Scotch, I'll stick to a very, very dry vodka or gin martini, i'm probably as picky as you too are on scotch on what gin or vodka it is.

FWIW, screw PRI we can't see your toys at PRI. ;-)

Bret

Yes sir, Caol Ila is a fine one... also one of my favorites. I always keep a bottle around for special occasions. :)

You a fan of Laphroaig at all? Very intense... definitely an acquired taste but not something I really care for.

Thanks for the thoughts on polish direction OS. This stuff has always intrigued me even though I am not in the manufacturing trades. Not on the shop floor side of the coin anyways. Just like knowing how and why things work.

You got me on the last one. ;) (polishing the crank in the reverse direction for reverse-rotation ein;gines)

-Mindgame

Bret's take on Laphroaig 10 and 15 was what I'd say.

Bourbons are another favorite of mine. Just tried a Blanton's single barrel.

Bret would probably reverse polish a new crank. ;)