New line of small,agile,RWD cars?!?!?!?!?!?

From GM fastlane:

By Jack Keebler
GM Director--Advanced Concepts Group

First, I'm very grateful for all of the perspectives offered on front-, rear-, and all-wheel-drive. GM has been traditionally (and perhaps rightly) accused of ignoring customer input. Too often without that perspective, we've offered buyers well-reasoned -- but perfectly passionless products.

Second, as I suspected, the widely divergent thoughts posted indicate that there's a healthy market for various driveline layouts. Given the company's eight North American divisions, some identified with specific driveline types, there would appear to be a need for great-driving front-, rear-, and all-wheel-drive cars and trucks.

Specifically though, I promise to work on the creation of a line of small, agile, rear-wheel-drive cars. And quite frankly, I can't imagine a front-drive version of Camaro.

Nothing wrong with that!

Seems Lutz's initial dream of an army of configuable "Kappa" cars from a few years back is now likely going to happen on versions of Zeta. Quite possible in a plant set up to produce a variety of "building block" cars on a single assembly line. :)

I am thinking CZ6 floorpan with Kappa Front and rear suspensions. I4 and V6 drivetrains. Anyone else think this sounds pretty cool?

Hmm... thegriffon was saying he thought we should voice our opinion on a RWD G6 with the GTO being a 2 door version. Maybe he was hinting at something.

I'll take a 3-series sized sedan with the 260HP turbo Ecotec please.

This sounds really awesome... Give me a small, lightweight, mean looking, great handling car with a small block in it and I'm sold :yes:

Now they just need to make these ideas a reality and they will have alot of happy campers on their hands.

What do they mean by "small and lightweight?" ...'cause they reference Camaro, which is anything but small and lightweight.

The Solstice is small, but at 2,800lbs (hundreds more than a miata) it isn't exactly lightweight either...


...but yeah, I could go for small and light if they really meant it...

Uhh give me a few of RWD coupes and sedans with V8s and V6s! That what we need right about now! *cough* *cough* Camaro, Impala, G6, Grand Prix. Possibly an AWD Cobalt SS. That would be bad a$$!

What do they mean by "small and lightweight?" ...'cause they reference Camaro, which is anything but small and lightweight.

The Solstice is small, but at 2,800lbs (hundreds more than a miata) it isn't exactly lightweight either...


...but yeah, I could go for small and light if they really meant it...

Don't know exactly what you mean by lightweight... But anything less then 2,500lbs is just about impossible with all the animities and crash standards anymore... (People just won't go for Manual Windows... lol)

But anything less then 2,500lbs is just about impossible with all the animities and crash standards anymore... (People just won't go for Manual Windows... lol)

The new Lotus Elise sold in the US is around 2000 lbs, due to its aluminum chassis. The price tag is around 40k.


I like the idea of small, agile, rwd..as long as mid-engine is part of the mix.

The Elise is even more a gokart than the Miata or Solstice.

The new Lotus Elise sold in the US is around 2000 lbs, due to its aluminum chassis. The price tag is around 40k.


I like the idea of small, agile, rwd..as long as mid-engine is part of the mix.

Yeah......

if a fat guy sat on one, he wouldn't notice it until Taco Bell rears its ugly head............

Whatsyer point? :)

It's funny. I was daydreaming the other day in traffic (happens a lot).... I happened to be behind 3 different status-mobiles, errrm... Beeeemers. One was a run of the mill sedan, one was an M3 'vert and the other was a coupe. I found myself wondering what GM's "3 series" was. Oooof, haven't got one.

What a novel concept (whooda ever thunkit). Multiple body styles and powertrain choices from a common platform - coupe, sedan, convertable, wagon, rwd, awd, 2 or 3 engine choices EACH available with a stick in all bodies (that sounds kinda funny).......... (can they even do Kappa in awd?) I don't think an M3 type car would be appropriate here, but a RWD manual transmission sport sedan priced for the common fellar - yeah, that'd be purrrty cool.

My wife might even let me dream about having one....for a little while......maybe

I don't know if you guys even realize how much of a milestone this is for GM. The fact that they're admitting they haven't heard customer input is half-amazing in itself. The fact that they're actually willing to listen and entertain our ideas (instead of giving us excuses) is fully amazing.

It's a sign that things at GM are a-changine friends. They're putting product first. FINALLY!!!

Thats one hell of a novel idea.... Kappa seems to be extremely versatile and I could see a large capacity kappa plant pumping out all kinds of wonderful vehicles.

From GM fastlane:

Your nagging finally worked :D

Your nagging finally worked :D

My nagging to GM decision makers, has been quite intense for something like this....mostly to make the case for a "right sized" Camaro. In fact every time Bob Lutz says that "Camaro enthusiasts have been driving me crazy since I got here".....I almost feel self conscious....like he's talking about ME, personally. :D

Anyhow, Keebler's comments are a pleasant surprise. I'n VERY curious to find out exactly what they're up to...and what these cars might be. My impressions though, are that Bob Lutz is one of us. He and many, (not all), around him could support a small/medium RWD architecture, (sized like the Torana concept), if a business case could be made for it.

Maybe the Camaro makes the case for such a platform? I don't know. Is that what Keebler's even talking about? Don't know that either.

I would like to see a Malibu size car with rwd/awd and a small V8 as an option with a auto or manual. That is my version of the Chevy 3-series...and swap out the small V8 for a 6.0 LS2 or something :D

I would still like to see a 2-door wagon be made. Like the Kappa nomad.

I am not so sure they would need a v8 option in a car that size. Just a SC v6.... Well maybe a v8 for a top top model(LS7?j/k) :D

I was thinking more like a 4.8 or 5.3 as the top option, but the LS7 does sound better.

My take is if you're thinking "Malibu" sized as a "smallish" car, you're thinking too big. We already have that flank covered with the CTS.

I'm thinking a smidge larger than Cobalt which is what I believe to be "right-sized" in this case. It's already the larger of the "compact" offerings out there.

For comparison, a 3 series bimmer is the size of a civic. :yes: The Cobalt is 3-4in. longer than either.

My take is if you're thinking "Malibu" sized as a "smallish" car, you're thinking too big. We already have that flank covered with the CTS.

I'm thinking a smidge larger than Cobalt which is what I believe to be "right-sized" in this case. It's already the larger of the "compact" offerings out there.

For comparison, a 3 series bimmer is the size of a civic. :yes: The Cobalt is 3-4in. longer than either.

I'd like even smaller than a Cobalt, with a V6 -- no V8 option. RWD only, or at least as the design center. Target weight of 3300 pounds with the standard features (I want pwr driver seat, mirrors, windows, and door locks, 16" wheels; no nav, no seat heater, no dozen airbags, no Onstar).

I'd like the V6 to be worthy of the LS2. If GM can make a 6.0l V8 with 400hp, let's have a 280hp, short stroke (compared to LS2), 4.0l 60 degree V6. I don't care if it needs premium gas.

Make it a Saturn, Pontiac, or Chevy -- I don't care about that. Don't make it a Caddy unless they can avoid the "all Caddys have Onstar" rule.
If they want a 3500 pounds luxury model to sell as a Caddy with the HFV6 and Onstar and two dozen airbags, that's fine.

Maybe the Torana concept triggered the notion of a GM competitor to BMW 3-series?

Maybe the Torana concept triggered the notion of a GM competitor to BMW 3-series?

I think it did, actually.

I think it did, actually.


Ohhh I would love a modern Torana.

Ohhh I would love a modern Torana.

Oh yeah, me too.

I think some people are trying to see if Kappa can create a family of 2+2, coupes and sedans. I'm told that the engineering is not there to support that proposition. So we'll see.

OTOH, the Camaro architecture will be a substantially revised Zeta, (How substantial is still be wrestled with)...could this be what will ultimately be used on this new line??

Oh yeah, me too.

I think some people are trying to see if Kappa can create a family of 2+2, coupes and sedans.best thing i heard in awhile.:cool:

Oh yeah, me too.

I think some people are trying to see if Kappa can create a family of 2+2, coupes and sedans. I'm told that the engineering is not there to support that proposition. So we'll see.

OTOH, the Camaro architecture will be a substantially revised Zeta, (How substantial is still be wrestled with)...could this be what will ultimately be used on this new line??
Charlie if you use the suspension from Kappa and not the unibody it isn't Kappa but would be related. It seems as though there are already supposed to be midsize coupes being produced in Willmington, Guy's guess on where the Camaro and its 2 door bretheren are headed, so why not shorten the floorpan from Camaro, make a new top part of the unibody and call it something else since it would be neither Kappa, Zeta, or CZ6.

Charlie if you use the suspension from Kappa and not the unibody it isn't Kappa but would be related. It seems as though there are already supposed to be midsize coupes being produced in Willmington, Guy's guess on where the Camaro and its 2 door bretheren are headed, so why not shorten the floorpan from Camaro, make a new top part of the unibody and call it something else since it would be neither Kappa, Zeta, or CZ6.

IF GM can pull this off, it won't share a damned thing with Camaro. Kind of a shame really, had the timing been different, perhaps this program and Camaro might have converged. The result? A smaller, lighter Camaro.

IF GM can pull this off, it won't share a damned thing with Camaro. Kind of a shame really, had the timing been different, perhaps this program and Camaro might have converged. The result? A smaller, lighter Camaro.
...that handled better, got better fuel mileage, and braked much better.

I knew someone would go there so I thought I would.

I decided to post my thoughts on what we could see with this new chassis from a thread on GMI:

The LSx engine series would likely not go into this chassis. It would be resevered for the larger, midsize and up, Corvette, and trucks. There could however be plenty of room for near 300 hp HV V6s. Throw DI and a hotter cam into the 3.9 with some programming and you could easily have a high power, high economy v6. Make it an aluminum block and you would also have a low weight engine for a small car. Zeta, really it is VE the name Zeta right now is dead, is actually fullsize and midsize. The LWB VE's are fullsize and the SWB cars are the same track but shorter. Both are quite wide. I doubt the Camaro, its sisters, or the VEs will be wider than 76" but still that is quite wide. The 79" width for the Camaro concept was for show. It was an exaggeration of the production model and conveyed the ideas VERY well.

The size of this new RWD chassis would probably be the size of the SWB deltas but wider. I would expect it to as wide or a little wider than Kappa BUT with more length and height.

EPII should grow in length and width if the next Malibu is truely to replace the Impala. Also this would give the next Signum plenty of executive size for GME with a small number of imported VEs for the truely high end. Lets not forget that Delta is not continuing for much longer. GME didn't like Delta and they still don't the next gen global compact cars will be Astra based not Delta based so they could be smaller than the Cobalt and Ion.

I think the idea is, to base these cars around Ecotec engines.

According to the Feb '06 issue of motor, the current estimate is that the Holden VE cars will be 230kg heavier than the current (VZII is it?) models. That seems a little excessive to me, but if it's true, that means the V8 Commodore will be over 4000 pounds, or about the same as the Chrysler LX or Cadillac STS V8 models. 230kg is a bit over 500 lbs for the metric-challenged.


If this is the chassis for the next Camaro, that leaves a lot of lightening work for the engineers!

Small RWD cars eh? Man I wish Cobalts were RWD. I'd love a Cobalt in rear or all wheel drive to beat on everyday and have my Camaro(s) for whenever I felt like. I hate FWD.

Oh yeah, me too.

I think some people are trying to see if Kappa can create a family of 2+2, coupes and sedans. I'm told that the engineering is not there to support that proposition. So we'll see.

OTOH, the Camaro architecture will be a substantially revised Zeta, (How substantial is still be wrestled with)...could this be what will ultimately be used on this new line??


Question is how did Holden build the Torana concept?? Its a driveable concept so in essence the engineering is already done yes?

Question is how did Holden build the Torana concept?? Its a driveable concept so in essence the engineering is already done yes?

I'm not sure Anthony. Was it 'real' engineering or cobbled up just for the concept?

But it would sure be a shame if the Camaro, (and Monaro replacement), come out too heavy and bulky, and miss being part of a possible new, smaller, lighter, sportier, program by just afew months.

Thats one hell of a novel idea.... Kappa seems to be extremely versatile and I could see a large capacity kappa plant pumping out all kinds of wonderful vehicles.

Not Kappa. It isn't a versitile chassis.

My nagging to GM decision makers, has been quite intense for something like this....mostly to make the case for a "right sized" Camaro. In fact every time Bob Lutz says that "Camaro enthusiasts have been driving me crazy since I got here".....I almost feel self conscious....like he's talking about ME, personally. :D

Anyhow, Keebler's comments are a pleasant surprise. I'n VERY curious to find out exactly what they're up to...and what these cars might be. My impressions though, are that Bob Lutz is one of us. He and many, (not all), around him could support a small/medium RWD architecture, (sized like the Torana concept), if a business case could be made for it.

Maybe the Camaro makes the case for such a platform? I don't know. Is that what Keebler's even talking about? Don't know that either.

I know for a fact that Bob Lutz isn't getting all the things done he'd like to because of the limited finances of GM, and the fact that GM has an approval system geared differently than what he's used to at Ford and Chrysler. Yet at the same time, he's both working within and changing the system at the same time.

From the moment he set foot in GM and got the Kappa on track for production, he's wanted a chassis that would spawn a series of profitable though not necessarily high volume small RWD niche cars, including sedans, coupes, mini crossovers, and cars like the Solstice. But he isn't an engineer or a finance wiz, and can only provide direction.

He first said Kappa would be the chassis, and then it seems engineering and costs sidelined that idea. Now it seems he's indicating that Zeta is that chassis, but we still have to see if the public accepts RWD in volume cars (all the LXs combined roughly equal what Impala alone sells).

Lutz is no doubt a 1st level car enthusiast. I strongly believe that despite having a beancounter history, so is CEO Rick Wagoner (sending Camaro back to be redesigned last year, and willing to accept losses now to bring out exciting cars in the near future). But at the same time, as chairmen, their 1st priority is the survival of the company.

I know Buickman thinks that GM can get rich and famous by continuing to sell W and G bodys forever with his 10 point plan, but Lutz and Wagoner know what their doing.

They just need to find a way to do it quicker. And I think they know that. :)

Jack Keebler is a good guy, and his favor of rear-wheel drive isn't entirely surprising. If you remember when he was with Motor Trend, he seemd to take great pleasure in muscle-car comparos, tests of Ford SVT's experimental Mustangs, etc. Seems like he has a real love of those sorts of cars.

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Underlying all this discussion about "small", I would like to add a point that transcends 2-3 years and jumps ahead 10 years or more...

After spending so much time in Europe last year, I find myself still amazed at their reception of the Smart (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5217861) car line. You see them everywhere over there, parked sideways in a parallel spot, on a sidewalk, crammed into a spot for a motorbike, etc. Yet you also see them on the Autobahn doing 90mph! I rode in one several times - a coworker rented it and we went to dinner and sight-seeing in it several times - it really wasn't that bad. They have really caught on over there, and I think they will catch on here too in the next few years. Given gas prices, maintenance costs, and parking issues (especially in congested Metro areas), they have a lot going in their favor.

Dieter Zetsche has announced plans to bring in a Chrysler competitor to the Mercedes Smart unit, and For has begun looking into bringing the Ka to the US to compete as well. Both of these are ready to go today if crash tests and emissions can be met (which I doubt will happen without tweaks). So you guys help me out a little, what does GM have in Asia or Europe that might be in the same class?

Seriously, I think this market is about to explode in the US as people move away from gas-guzzlers. I think it would be wise for GM (and Ford) to concentrate on grabbing market share in that sector as it grows instead of trying to come to the party late and overtake share.

IF GM can pull this off, it won't share a damned thing with Camaro. Kind of a shame really, had the timing been different, perhaps this program and Camaro might have converged. The result? A smaller, lighter Camaro.


There is always the 6th Gen :shrug:

There is always the 6th Gen :shrug:

HAH! Round about 2021.:)

Underlying all this discussion about "small", I would like to add a point that transcends 2-3 years and jumps ahead 10 years or more...

After spending so much time in Europe last year, I find myself still amazed at their reception of the Smart (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5217861) car line. You see them everywhere over there, parked sideways in a parallel spot, on a sidewalk, crammed into a spot for a motorbike, etc. Yet you also see them on the Autobahn doing 90mph! I rode in one several times - a coworker rented it and we went to dinner and sight-seeing in it several times - it really wasn't that bad. They have really caught on over there, and I think they will catch on here too in the next few years. Given gas prices, maintenance costs, and parking issues (especially in congested Metro areas), they have a lot going in their favor.

Dieter Zetsche has announced plans to bring in a Chrysler competitor to the Mercedes Smart unit, and For has begun looking into bringing the Ka to the US to compete as well. Both of these are ready to go today if crash tests and emissions can be met (which I doubt will happen without tweaks). So you guys help me out a little, what does GM have in Asia or Europe that might be in the same class?

Seriously, I think this market is about to explode in the US as people move away from gas-guzzlers. I think it would be wise for GM (and Ford) to concentrate on grabbing market share in that sector as it grows instead of trying to come to the party late and overtake share.

There was a Smart running around Monterey for a while last year when they were shooting a movie or something. It's astounding how short that thing is! :shock:

As for GM Asia, GM has nothing. Most all Asian countries have serious tarriffs, and local content rules. That's why GM was intrested in hooking up with Daewoo. If I'm not mistaken, there is an Asian version of NAFTA where cars within the region can be moved around and sold.

The smallest car GM sells in the region right now is the same car we get here as the Aveo. There's also a 3 door hatch version that we haven't gotten.... yet.


Ford owns part of Mazda, and therefore relies on them for market penetration in Asia. The smallest car actually made by Ford sold in the region is the European Festiva. From Mazda it's the Mazda 2 (no I'm not making this up). It's roughly the same size and shape as the Aveo. In Japan, Mazda also seems to have a countless number of mini "Niche" vehicles as small or slightly smaller that seem to spring up and disappear pretty quickly.

Currently something called the "G Special" is what they have in Smart territory.

Trust me. You won't like it. :no:

http://www.carol.mazda.co.jp/limited/g-special/

Not Kappa, eh? That sucks, I thought they meant "Small" when they said small. The Cobalt is too big for my tastes(with that kind of car). If I have a car powered by a four, I want it to be fairly small/light(Solstice-Sky sized), that way it still has a chance of actually being fast.

Too bad I'm broke and I'm probably going to be buying a 96-97 miata in the near future...Money issues don't always pan out like you hope they do :'(

Not Kappa, eh? That sucks, I thought they meant "Small" when they said small. The Cobalt is too big for my tastes(with that kind of car). If I have a car powered by a four, I want it to be fairly small/light(Solstice-Sky sized), that way it still has a chance of actually being fast.

Too bad I'm broke and I'm probably going to be buying a 96-97 miata in the near future...Money issues don't always pan out like you hope they do :'(

I believe that GM wants it based on Kappa. But to get a rear seat and high volume buildability from Kappa means an essentially new platform, lots of money and some time.

We'll see what happens.

Some speculation.....

I wouldn't be surprised if there is a Firebird proposal in here somewhere. An Ecotec/Turbo Ecotec Firebird....

Some speculation.....

I wouldn't be surprised if there is a Firebird proposal in here somewhere. An Ecotec/Turbo Ecotec Firebird....

Firebird instead od G4?

Using that name on a car that is not a pony car will really tick-off some people...I'm not one of them:cool:

Some speculation.....

I wouldn't be surprised if there is a Firebird proposal in here somewhere. An Ecotec/Turbo Ecotec Firebird....

:eek:
I can't believe you said that!

Would be a stretch though, wouldn't it?

:eek:
I can't believe you said that!

Would be a stretch though, wouldn't it?

I don't know, just putting some bits and pieces together.

I don't know, just putting some bits and pieces together.
Curious... just how "small" would you allow them to go with a new Firebird, and still let them put that name on the fender?

Instead of getting rid of engineers, GM should get rid of some of the bean counters. People need to have cars to get excited, interested about. Desireable cars. When a person sits in a car they need to feel WOW this is a nice car! Not, well, it's OK.

Solstice coupe = Firebird....hmmm.. that could work. Just save the Trans Am name for a V8 car.

Trans Am costs GM money, they could just make the high performance one the Formula. It would be neat to see a turbo HF V6 in the Firebird lineup.

Trans Am costs GM money,

Was it something like $10 per car on the last Trans Am. I bet a lot of people are willing to pay that.

Solstice Trans Am?

Just save the Trans Am name for a V8 car.
Or for a new Turbo T/A...

As much as I'd like a T-T/A, would that car have anything attached to the name negatively? Camaro has the mullet stigma, does Firebird and Trans Am?

Curious... just how "small" would you allow them to go with a new Firebird, and still let them put that name on the fender?

Well Proud, like I said, just acouple of bits and pieces mixed with some speculation.

Frankly, I'm not even completely sure of what a Firebird should be anymore. But if one day it comes back as an RX8 type car, with a 260 hp turbo Ecotec.....that wouldn't be so bad for Pontiac's image.

Frankly, I'm not even completely sure of what a Firebird should be anymore. But if one day it comes back as an RX8 type car, with a 260 hp turbo Ecotec.....that wouldn't be so bad for Pontiac's image.

:cool:

I'm sorry guys, a Firebird that is not a rwd V8 coupe and doesn't somewhat resemble what the car has always been, is not a Firebird. The Firebird name on a Solstice-like vehicle would be the worst application of a classic name that I can think of, worse than Charger. Trans-am or not, just leave it dead.

New name.

Well Proud, like I said, just acouple of bits and pieces mixed with some speculation.

Frankly, I'm not even completely sure of what a Firebird should be anymore. But if one day it comes back as an RX8 type car, with a 260 hp turbo Ecotec.....that wouldn't be so bad for Pontiac's image.

True - I agree.
If I think about the Cougar and what it was for Ford throughout it's life... it's been just about everything.
It went from a "fancier" sporty Mustang in 1967-1973, to a luxury barge T-bird clone 1974-1978, then to a mid-size/mid-level 2-door fox body T-bird clone from 1979-1987, then to the MN12 platform with upscale performance and luxury from 1989-1998, and finished up as a Probe-replacement with the 1999-2002 new-edge Cougar based on the Contour/Mystique platform available with only a V6 option over the base I4 engine. In short, it has evolved into many forms over the years, and has played all the roles prety well.

Pontiac could do the same with Firebird. I think Firebird stayed more true to it's original design over 3 decades than Cougar did, but if Camaro holds true to it's heritage, then firebird could have room to waver a bit - successfully, just like Mustang and Cougar did.

One thing for sure... a turbo-4 in a light car with great styling should make for a very interesting piece. It would have my attention.:thumb:

I'm sorry guys, a Firebird that is not a rwd V8 coupe and doesn't somewhat resemble what the car has always been, is not a Firebird. The Firebird name on a Solstice-like vehicle would be the worst application of a classic name that I can think of, worse than Charger. Trans-am or not, just leave it dead.

New name.
How about just GXP then? Like there is a little bit of Corvette in every SS. This car could be the epitomy of Pontiac.

I'm sorry guys, a Firebird that is not a rwd V8 coupe and doesn't somewhat resemble what the car has always been, is not a Firebird. The Firebird name on a Solstice-like vehicle would be the worst application of a classic name that I can think of, worse than Charger. Trans-am or not, just leave it dead.

New name.

I don't think it would be a "Solstice" type vehicle....maybe more like an RX8 or 240SX or Alfa Romeo GTV. Again, just speculating.

Everytime I hear someone say, If you deviate from 'X' formula then leave it dead....what I hear is, "I want to make sure Pontiac is killed off".

Everytime I hear someone say, If you deviate from 'X' formula then leave it dead....what I hear is, "I want to make sure Pontiac is killed off".


That is really easy to say that, but that is not the case.

It is not a matter of deviating from a formula, it is attaching a name to a vehicle it should NOT represent. No one is saying that a smaller Pontiac coupe should not be built or it should not be powered by a turbo ecotech, but don't call it a Firebird. It's not that hard. That car is simply NOT a Firebird. Do you really think that it would be a smart or add sales if such a vehicle was called "Firebird"? People who know and like the Firebird will be pissed off and the people who don't care about the Firebird history will buy the vehicle if it is called another name anyway, so what is the point?

The bottom line is, you would have been really pissed off if the type of vehicle you describe was called "Camaro" so don't say people want Pontiac to die if they don't call a vehicle that is clearly not a Firebird, a "Firebird". I wouldn't have said that you wanted to kill Chevrolet off if you didn't want said vehicle to be called "Camaro".

That is really easy to say that, but that is not the case.

It is not a matter of deviating from a formula, it is attaching a name to a vehicle it should NOT represent. No one is saying that a smaller Pontiac coupe should not be built or it should not be powered by a turbo ecotech, but don't call it a Firebird. It's not that hard. That car is simply NOT a Firebird. Do you really think that it would be a smart or add sales if such a vehicle was called "Firebird"? People who know and like the Firebird will be pissed off and the people who don't care about the Firebird history will buy the vehicle if it is called another name anyway, so what is the point?

So a 'real' Firebird must have a smallblock Chevy?

The bottom line is, you would have been really pissed off if the type of vehicle you describe was called "Camaro" so don't say people want Pontiac to die if they don't call a vehicle that is clearly not a Firebird, a "Firebird". I wouldn't have said that you wanted to kill Chevrolet off if you didn't want said vehicle to be called "Camaro".

Chevy isn't at risk of closing down. And Camaro is not Firebird.

I'll come back to this later..................

I think a Firebird that is "modern" in every sense of the word (which may include a high output motor that is not a V8) would not be a bad thing.

I guess my question would be:

Why do you think an RX-8-like vehicle would benefit from the use of the Firebird name versus a new/another name?

I think the best use of the Firebird name would be on a coupe that is on the same platform as the Camaro but with a very modern design in and out and different proportions and possibly different motors as long as there is still a V8. This would draw people into the showrooms who are looking for a very modern vehicle in and out, just like the RX-8-like vehicle, but would not alianate everyone who once liked the Firebird.

If the Firebird name is used on another type of vehicle, then it is the last nail in the coffin for the Firebird as a fire-breathing sports/muscle car.

Another thing, what would this "new" Firebird have that would make it a true Firebird or even remotely relatable to a Firebird? What styling would be used to link this to a Firebird?

Maybe I have a different perspective, since I personally feel the "REAL" Firebird died after the 2nd gen, eventhough my wife had a 3rd gen Firebird.

If we are to believe Jack Keebler's comments about the family of RWD cars....a 2+2 coupe would be one of the proposals. If I were calling the shots for Pontiac, and I was getting a Pontiac RWD, 2+2, sporty coupe which also might share it's high performance powertrains with Solstice....I'd have to be some kind of moron not to tap into the Firebird brand equity. It would be a marketing advantage too good to ignore. I would put the Firebird name on this stylish, fast, high performance coupe in a heartbeat. Even if, how many?...1,000?, 5,000? enthusiasts were pissed.

Anyway, regardless of Keebler's comments, the engineering and manufacturing is just not there to support a Kappa based family of 2+2 and 2+3 cars. The alternative is to create a new Kappa replacement architecture. Price tag? Maybe 1 billion dollars, so maybe we shouldn't hold our breathes.

I guess we can go back to talking about Zeta GTO sedans. ;)

Maybe I have a different perspective, since I personally feel the "REAL" Firebird died after the 2nd gen, eventhough my wife had a 3rd gen Firebird.

If we are to believe Jack Keebler's comments about the family of RWD cars....a 2+2 coupe would be one of the proposals. If I were calling the shots for Pontiac, and I was getting a Pontiac RWD, 2+2, sporty coupe which also might share it's high performance powertrains with Solstice....I'd have to be some kind of moron not to tap into the Firebird brand equity. It would be a marketing advantage too good to ignore. I would put the Firebird name on this stylish, fast, high performance coupe in a heartbeat. Even if, how many?...1,000?, 5,000? enthusiasts were pissed.


I agree. I don't see why a Firebird can only be a Camaro clone or a Camaro with a slightly different shape. I would expect the Camaro to be fully modern and have the best V8 available, which doesn't leave much room for the Firebird. Maybe seat heaters and a power passenger seat?

I think a RWD sport coupe with a powerful turbo 4 would be just fine as a Firebird. It's a great name. Doesn't it deserve to be out of Camaro's shadow and be a truly unique car?

If it does somehow come back as a variation on the Camaro, that'd be okay too, but I don't see that as the only way that it can come back. I'd rather have "Firebird" than "G5" or whatever.

I don't see why a Firebird can only be a Camaro clone or a Camaro with a slightly different shape. .

Well, a different alternative to the Camaro is what the Firebird is. It is a similar vehicle that offers at least what the Camaro does. Doing what you describe to the Firebird is like calling the current Malibu a Chevelle. You are talking about a complete departure from what the car is. Again, I am not against a small 2 seat or 2+2 coupe that uses a modded ecotech, but there is no reason to call it Firebird. That is slapping a name on a vehicle that it isn't, and that type of a move is very transparent. It is a move of desparation, like in the 80's when economy cars had legendary nameplates.

Well, a different alternative to the Camaro is what the Firebird is. It is a similar vehicle that offers at least what the Camaro does. Doing what you describe to the Firebird is like calling the current Malibu a Chevelle. You are talking about a complete departure from what the car is. Again, I am not against a small 2 seat or 2+2 coupe that uses a modded ecotech, but there is no reason to call it Firebird. That is slapping a name on a vehicle that it isn't, and that type of a move is very transparent. It is a move of desparation, like in the 80's when economy cars had legendary nameplates.

1. It's just a name. A good name, but just a name.

2. The Malibu was a Chevelle back in the day.

The way I see it, a Firebird is a sporty car. Now you probably wouldn't want to put that label on a sedan, but anything sporty is fine.

1. It's just a name. A good name, but just a name.

I think we both know that this is not the case. If a name was just a name, then there wouldn't have been so much hoopla to get the Chevy coupe to be called "Camaro".


2. The Malibu was a Chevelle back in the day.

I know this and that is why I said the "current Malibu".


The way I see it, a Firebird is a sporty car. Now you probably wouldn't want to put that label on a sedan, but anything sporty is fine.

It just seems that the attitude is that "oh well, we Chevy fans have the Camaro so do whatever you like with the Firebird". I can't think of a better way to use the Firebird name than to make it a totally modern muscle/sports coupe now that there are only retro muscle cars, except for the soon-to-be-gone GTO. Pontiac is all about new names recently, so a new name for a totally new type of car seems logical to me.

If you think there was some upset people and negative press about the current GTO being called "GTO", then this would be far worse.

OK!... Whoever said to call the Solstice a Firebird is a flippin dumb idiot!!

That is all...

I think we both know that this is not the case. If a name was just a name, then there wouldn't have been so much hoopla to get the Chevy coupe to be called "Camaro".




I know this and that is why I said the "current Malibu".




It just seems that the attitude is that "oh well, we Chevy fans have the Camaro so do whatever you like with the Firebird". I can't think of a better way to use the Firebird name than to make it a totally modern muscle/sports coupe now that there are only retro muscle cars, except for the soon-to-be-gone GTO. Pontiac is all about new names recently, so a new name for a totally new type of car seems logical to me.

If you think there was some upset people and negative press about the current GTO being called "GTO", then this would be far worse.

Yes, well that's possible.

I guess what you're saying is that a modern coupe with a turbo 4 should use some new name, saving Firebird for a car with a V8 option, also making the Firebird a car with no retro. Of course, then people will complain that it doesn't look like the old models.

It'll be interesting to see if GM is actually able to implement their unique-models-for-each-division plan.

It just seems that the attitude is that "oh well, we Chevy fans have the Camaro so do whatever you like with the Firebird". I can't think of a better way to use the Firebird name than to make it a totally modern muscle/sports coupe now that there are only retro muscle cars, except for the soon-to-be-gone GTO. Pontiac is all about new names recently, so a new name for a totally new type of car seems logical to me.

If you think there was some upset people and negative press about the current GTO being called "GTO", then this would be far worse.

Okay this is the way I see it. Camaro and Firebird both have tremendous equity as being sporty coupes. Camaro has a lot more; it is the second or third most recognizable nameplate in the world, and has/had a lot more enthusiasts clamoring for its return than just about any other car. When you have that kind of built in fanbase, you just can't ignore it.

Times are changing, and Pontiac's case for survival is looking lean and tough. Pontiac's current lineup is getting degraded by stale product that looks to be around for a long time still [GP specifically] and lame Chevy rebadges. Pontiac needs unique, outstanding product that will get it noticed in the marketplace and create a wave of attention and sales.

With that criteria in mind, would another V8 coupe like the Camaro cause another stir like the Camaro concept? Or would the media begin to question GM's sanity in bringing yet another V8 coupe at a time when gasoline prices are still unstable and yet again rising?

Would a Pontiac with the Firebird name create some buzz. Yes, enthusiasts and Firebird enthusiasts alike would be happy to see something. Would people be upset if the Firebird name were attached to a smaller coupe, a la 240sx or Probe-sized? Firebird enthusiasts would be. How many of you are there? Now, logically speaking answer that question again, just how many Firebird enthusiasts are there.

Of that small group, relatively speaking, how many of them would actually be upset to see the car return, albeit with a slightly different formula?

What if in the end, what you get is a car with incredible aggressive styling [my favorite is the second gen, but you all can fight over that] and the funnest, most tossable, Lotus-like, high-winding 5 second Firebird ever?

What would you say then?

Bottom line: Pontiac needs to create a business case for unique product. Unfortunately, though the truth is this small lineup is very far out, and just mere speculation completely, so all this i laid out is a moot point. Any Firebird we're gonna see, won't be for some time, or it'll be a hasty, and I mean hasty, unless GM finds a treasure chest of $10B, hasty rebadge of Camaro.

Coming from the perspective of someone who was never around to see the Firebird "die with the 2nd gen", I can say right now I do not want to see a I4 turbo. The Firebirds I grew up with always had much more rawness to me, and it is initially the F-Body I tried to buy. Ended up getting the Camaro, but I still see the Firebirds being much more aggressive, from a design standpoint. I really think Pontiac could use a nice turbo4 rwd coupe, but leave the Firebird name off of it. If they could make a more desirable G6, it would be great, but slapping the Firebird name on a performance G6 model would be ludicrous to me.

I think the Camaro concept is good looking, but I am still disappointed somewhat with how the car is predominantly styled around the 69s, especially the front end. A good modern rwd Firebird v8 would be something I would take more than a look at, if done well. Would this cannibalize the Camaro's sales and budget? I don't know, I don't have the business politically flair many of the members of this board seem to have, but I would love to see a completely modern pony car in the near future. I don't want to see Pontiac die, but throwing the Firebird name on something just to try and make it sell is not the way to get Pontiac up and running again.

For the "performance division" of GM I would love to see

-Solstice
-A better performing G6 (I still would love to see the AWD V6 turbo G6 GXP, maybe minus the dumb alphanumeric G6 nomenclature. probably not going to happen though)
-A rwd Grand Prix sedan
-A rwd Coupe: which is where the Firebird could step in again. The GTO has been here only a very short time, and despite the positive press this car gets, it has not taken as well to the automotive community as GM obviously would have liked it to.

What about a Solstice RWD or AWD 5.3 V8 coupe? Some Fbody fans would gladly ditch the back seats anyway. If restyling the Solstice to be a FireBird would be basterdising the Firebird or T/A name then no problem. Solstice is a great known name and great style that wouldnt have to be redesigned.

Solstice RWD or AWD 5.3 coupe

or

Kappa RWD or AWD 5.3 coupe T/A

z284ever, do you know if the Solstice coupe is still coming? We haven't heard anything about if for some time. That will be a hot number if it ever comes out.

z284ever, do you know if the Solstice coupe is still coming? We haven't heard anything about if for some time. That will be a hot number if it ever comes out.

I'm not sure if it's still coming, especially now, with the removable hardtop coming.

In 2009 (from what I gather) GM will have Delta, EPII, Zeta, Kappa, GMT900, GMT355, Sigma II, Y-Body and cross-over (the name escapes me, Omega maybe?) for NA. If you can't do what you want with 9 platforms then it is time to re-think your business strategy.

If Kappa isn't flexible to accomodate cars that nearly the same size as the Solstice and Sky with a couple of extra seats then cut ties with it and replace it with something more flexible.

In 2009 (from what I gather) GM will have Delta, EPII, Zeta, Kappa, GMT900, GMT355, Sigma II, Y-Body and cross-over (the name escapes me, Omega maybe?) for NA. If you can't do what you want with 9 platforms then it is time to re-think your business strategy.

If Kappa isn't flexible to accomodate cars that nearly the same size as the Solstice and Sky with a couple of extra seats then cut ties with it and replace it with something more flexible.


This is exactly what I'm guessing the "new Line of small agile rwd" is: the Kappa replacement. It should be ready about the time Kappa needs a re-do,No?

As for Firebird: no,never on anything but an honest to goodness musclecar.

Plopping a time-honored nameplate on something that doesn't have the pedigree pisses me off EVERY time it is done. Gah! it makes me want to puke when GM does this.

Plopping a time-honored nameplate on something that doesn't have the pedigree pisses me off EVERY time it is done. Gah! it makes me want to puke when GM does this.

Well, what pedigree are we talking about Camino?

A 1st gen Ram Air 400? How about a '79 T/A 6.6? Or a '73 SD 455? I love all of these cars, but their pedigree is in their Ponco powerplants.

You know which Firebird I always thought was cool? The SOHC Sprint. That's part of Firebird's pedigree as well.

Firebird could be a valuable part of GM's portfolio, if it could evolve into something relevant and successful.

I could see it being a sporty 2+2, turbo Ecotec, RWD coupe. I could see it being an expressively styled, Epsilon FWD/AWD coupe, with a full range of high tech 4 valve V6's, including firebreathing turbo versions. Or......I could also see it staying dead.
But I see no reason for it to come back as a Camaro clone. Personally, I think that would be a ridiculous waste of money and resources. Unless of course, GM re-releases (pick one), a RA 400, or T/A 6.6 or SD 455....then we're talkin'.

Epsilon FWD coupe,

I don't agree with most of what you might like to see the Firebird become, but I could eventually get over all of it but this. I never want to see a FWD Firebird. Leave it dead, if it is to be so.

I don't agree with most of what you might like to see the Firebird become, but I could eventually get over all of it but this. I never want to see a FWD Firebird. Leave it dead, if it is to be so.

Honestly, I think virtually everyone would get over it.

Especially if you could get that version for 17K.

Charlie, we could split hairs on much of the pedigree that's true enough. However, one aspect never changed and for me is non-negotiable in a Firebird. Every year of production contained a RWD,V8 performance car, without that it just wouldn't be a Firebird.


However a Kappa-sized V8 coupe would have my absolute blessing.:D


I think that short of such a recipe, Firebird should rest in peace. The way things look right now GTO is going to stay around for a while, which is fine with me. 1967-2002? I think Firebird deserves a rest, after all look how long GTO warmed the bench.

This is exactly what I'm guessing the "new Line of small agile rwd" is: the Kappa replacement. It should be ready about the time Kappa needs a re-do,No?


I thought about this, and it would be great if it's the case.

As for the Firebird thing... (my .02 at least)

Keep the name dead. Any FWD/AWD sporty Pontiac models of that size can be a G6 trim level.

If this RWD sedan (G8?) quote taken from a few days ago has any merit, Pontiac's biger exciting car can be a coupe variant of it with some hood scoops and the base Corvette engine. In a stroke of marketing brilliance, GM can call it the GTO. Pretty close to the original formula, isnt it? How sweet it would be if instead of calling it a G8 they named it the Tempest?

It would make more sense to call the high performance G6 variant you are dreaming of GTO instead of Firebird.

It would make more sense to call the high performance G6 variant you are dreaming of GTO instead of Firebird.

http://web.camaross.com/forums/showthread.php?t=427147

GTO based off the car in the above link, not the G6. Please re-read my post.

I wasn't talking to you so I will not re-read your post.

I should have stated that it was directed to Z284ever.

Turbo Ecotec Firebird AWD/FWD Firebird?!?!?

What the **** is wrong with you guys?!?? You want a DOHC Turbo ECOTEC! FIREBIRD?!?? **** No! Leave it dead rather than disgust the nameplate!! Whoever said the firebird top be this should burn in hell for eternity!!!

Un Goddamn Believeable! Makes me ****ing want to gag everytime I read that post! :death:

It would make more sense to call the high performance G6 variant you are dreaming of GTO instead of Firebird.

Maybe, it depends. If the only Zeta that Pontiac gets is the G8 sedan,I'd rather see a max effort version of that called GTO.

Regarding the next G6 coupe, that program is already in the planning stages and has a business plan. My thinking is, the coupe version could inexpensively be converted into a successful Firebird program.

Maybe a FWD base model with Ecotec or HV 3.5 and manual trans for $17,000. Offer cool stuff like 18" wheels, Momo (or some other brand), shifters, suspension kits, etc., on the base car. A midlevel FWD/AWD 3.9 HV or 3.6HF for $19-24K. And an AWD, turbo HF V6 for around $31K.

Turbo Ecotec Firebird AWD/FWD Firebird?!?!?

What the **** is wrong with you guys?!?? You want a DOHC Turbo ECOTEC! FIREBIRD?!?? **** No! Leave it dead rather than disgust the nameplate!! Whoever said the firebird top be this should burn in hell for eternity!!!

Un Goddamn Believeable! Makes me ****ing want to gag everytime I read that post! :death:

Dude, seek help. Please.

I wasn't talking to you so I will not re-read your post.

I should have stated that it was directed to Z284ever.

I apologize.

Dude, seek help. Please.


**** that! Why do you want to royally **** up a legend??

**** that! Why do you want to royally **** up a legend??

Right now, the best reason I can think of, is to personally piss YOU off. :p

Right now, the best reason I can think of, is to personally piss YOU off. :p



:devil:

Yeah, keep it dead, nothing good EVER came from evolution.....:rolleyes:

The idea of FWD Firebirds and Pontiacs makes me think of secretaries and chicks. That would be much more of a disgrace to the name than a turbo Ecotec Kappa sized Firebird.

There is no room in GM's lineup, at this point, for so much RWD coupes with V8s. There will be Camaro, probably CTS coupe down the line, and GTO/G8 hybrid. There's really not much room for Firebird in that lineup. That's why a smaller Firebird with less engine makes sense. It also makes sense because it would help create buzz for Pontiac, who desperately need it right now and into the future.

A FWD/AWD epsilon car with a turbo v6 option would be great, and help Pontiac out probably quite a bit in the performance arena. Leave the Firebird name off of it though. When I think of Firebird, I don't think of cars that remind me of the Ford Probe.

Well, what pedigree are we talking about Camino?

A 1st gen Ram Air 400? How about a '79 T/A 6.6? Or a '73 SD 455? I love all of these cars, but their pedigree is in their Ponco powerplants.

You know which Firebird I always thought was cool? The SOHC Sprint. That's part of Firebird's pedigree as well.

Firebird could be a valuable part of GM's portfolio, if it could evolve into something relevant and successful.

I could see it being a sporty 2+2, turbo Ecotec, RWD coupe. I could see it being an expressively styled, Epsilon FWD/AWD coupe, with a full range of high tech 4 valve V6's, including firebreathing turbo versions. Or......I could also see it staying dead.
But I see no reason for it to come back as a Camaro clone. Personally, I think that would be a ridiculous waste of money and resources. Unless of course, GM re-releases (pick one), a RA 400, or T/A 6.6 or SD 455....then we're talkin'.
Well, you know that I'm in the boat of anything that gives Pontiac a future, so I would consider any product that's exciting and profitable.

That said, it's unfair to say Firebird doesn't have a heritage. It has the same heritage that Camaro does. It's a shared heritage, not simply a Camaro heritage that Firebird piggybacked.

As far as the engines go, I would say that even in 4th gen form, when the cars were identical, the Firebird had the reputation of being the wilder, edgier car. Unfortunately, GM confused "wilder" with "ugliest ever" in the last few years, but that doesn't undo thirty years of history.

Part of this legend has been the car's reputation for trying radical scemes. The SD 455 was as much about Pontiac's willingness to trick The Man in order to build a fast car as it was the car's actual prowess. Firebird came turbo'ed in the late eighties (can't remember the exact year, I'm sure someone here does). I also beleive Firebird was the first to get the SLP treatment.

I think that for cost considerations at the very least, we'd want the Firebird to share a lot with Camaro. I don't understand the whole thing that the budget for this would have to come for Camaro. That's how it worked last time, but hey, both cars bit the dust last time. That would mean same size, RWD.

They could offer different engines. If you wanted to give the Firebird a turboed V6 or 4-cyl and then perhaps the V8, it would differentiate the cars (but make the Firebird cost more).

My basic view of how Pontiac could/should shape up is a RWD performance brand based upon three cars:

Solstice - Small, convertible, maybe coupe (I think you said removable hardtop puts this in doubt)

Firebird -Slotted slightly above Camaro in the same fashion Sky is to Solstice. Higher content, better interior, and just perhaps a bit more handling prowess or a few more hp.

GTO - Larger car, quad coupe. Spread the cost out with a low cost version. Call the lowend something else so that the purists shout themselves red in the face. Ideally, call it LeMans or Grand Prix, but G8 would work if Pontiac really wants a crappy, anonymous alphanumeric.

I could really care less what Pontiac does with the Firebird name as long as it doesn't go on a Camaro clone. It isn't the 60's anymore, pontiac doesn't need a Camaro clone to keep them from whining about not getting a Corvette clone.

*runs and hides*

I apologize.
It was my fault for making an unclear post.

Maybe, it depends. If the only Zeta that Pontiac gets is the G8 sedan,I'd rather see a max effort version of that called GTO.
Wasn't the Tempest a midsize, and not a large sedan? ;)

Regarding the next G6 coupe, that program is already in the planning stages and has a business plan. My thinking is, the coupe version could inexpensively be converted into a successful Firebird program.

Maybe a FWD base model with Ecotec or HV 3.5 and manual trans for $17,000. Offer cool stuff like 18" wheels, Momo (or some other brand), shifters, suspension kits, etc., on the base car. A midlevel FWD/AWD 3.9 HV or 3.6HF for $19-24K. And an AWD, turbo HF V6 for around $31K.
I don't think this car is a bad idea, but I still fail to see why it should be called Firebird. Even the stretched Kappa would be a "stretch" for the name

Solstice - Small, convertible, maybe coupe (I think you said removable hardtop puts this in doubt)

Firebird -Slotted slightly above Camaro in the same fashion Sky is to Solstice. Higher content, better interior, and just perhaps a bit more handling prowess or a few more hp.

GTO - Larger car, quad coupe. Spread the cost out with a low cost version. Call the lowend something else so that the purists shout themselves red in the face. Ideally, call it LeMans or Grand Prix, but G8 would work if Pontiac really wants a crappy, anonymous alphanumeric.
I like this lineup. The only problem is that I don't know how many car models Pontiac can support since they are giving its job to other divisions (SS line at Chevy, and Saturn stole the Sky).

BTW, the turbo TA was MY1989 for the 20th Anniversary.

:devil:


Just tell him that the Z28 option should NEVER come back on a Camaro, That'll get him going.


Just joking Z!!!;) :D

Just think, A minor screen name change. Z28Never ROTF!

Just tell him that the Z28 option should NEVER come back on a Camaro, That'll get him going.


Just joking Z!!!;) :D

Just think, A minor screen name change. Z28Never ROTF!
ouch!

Just tell him that the Z28 option should NEVER come back on a Camaro, That'll get him going.


Just joking Z!!!;) :D

Just think, A minor screen name change. Z28Never ROTF!

I sure hope that was sarcastic. You have no idea how passionate Charlie is about the Camaro and Firebird.:irk:

I sure hope that was sarcastic. You have no idea how passionate Charlie is about the Camaro and Firebird.:irk:


Oh, I know how passionate he is. And I am more then certain he knows how to take what I posted. Its all in fun.:D

We all can still have a little friendly fun around here can't we?:eek:

Oh, I know how passionate he is. And I am more then certain he knows how to take what I posted. Its all in fun.:D

We all can still have a little friendly fun around here can't we?:eek:

Oh yeah, no problem. That's how I took it. :D

But I'd like you to get into the thread that you mentioned the Hurricane, and tell us more.