Lutz: "all the way up to 500hp or whatever size V8 we have".

Lutz: Modern Camaro borrows from past

Rick Kranz
Automotive News / January 23, 2006 - 6:00 am




DETROIT -- Loud whistling and noisy applause greeted the Chevrolet Camaro concept as it was driven through the General Motors exhibit on its way to a stage at the Detroit auto show.

But unlike the equally praised Dodge Challenger concept and today's Ford Mustang, the Camaro does not merely display a strong retro theme.

Citing comments made by GM Chairman Rick Wagoner, GM Vice Chairman Robert Lutz said: "You don't want to repeat the past slavishly."

Lutz explained the Camaro's design direction and issues that need to be overcome before production can be approved to Product Editor Rick Kranz and other journalists Jan. 9 at the show. Here are Lutz's comments.



Modern styling
I've got to say that Rick Wagoner deserves a lot of the credit for it because the early clay models that we had were much more in keeping with the '60s through the '70s.

Rick saw the pictures and said, "Why are we doing this? Let's have another go at it and create a new car that captures the spirit of the '69, because that is what you really want. You don't want to repeat the past slavishly. You want to do a vehicle that captures all of the spirit, the passion, the essence of the old car, but reinterpret it in a new and modern and contemporary way that is going to last awhile."

So that is what we did. Ed Welburn got a second team on it, which was led by Tom Peters, who had done the Corvette. Tom Peters very quickly -- very quickly, within weeks -- had this clay model going. And when we saw it, we knew it was right.

While the Mustang and the Challenger are very nice cars, I honestly think this goes beyond that. I like both of those cars, (but) they don't really break any new ground aesthetically. They are very close to the original car. Maybe that is a good thing, but we elected not to do that.

We elected to do a thoroughly new car with totally new surfaces that doesn't just make the same statement of the old car again, but in fact makes a new statement while capturing all of the spirit and essence of the original cars.

We have no production plans to announce. But this concept car was designed over a production architecture, using production mechanical units, and if and when there should be a production car, it would be as close to this as the production Solstice was to the concept.

Ever since the first day I got to General Motors, I have been getting mail from Camaro owners, Camaro clubs, Camaro fanatics. It is like a cult following out there. For the last few months I have been answering e-mails by saying, "Just wait for the Detroit show. I think you will be pleased."

I know where (Camaro) fits in the overall enthusiasm ranking. If it was a question of what would you like to do, I would obviously do this one first. We can't always follow our enthusiasm. We have to do what's right for the business.

It took us about six months on the Solstice to kind of get all the numbers together, see whether we could afford it, see if we could fit it into the engineering workload. It would probably be the same here.


Co-existing with Corvette
Don't forget that the Camaro and the Corvette did co-exist. But the Corvette is very expensive, and the Camaro was always very affordable. If we were to put this car into production, it would be priced with the Mustang, which means it would be only slightly over the Pontiac Solstice.

For production we would obviously do like we did in the old days -- you would have a popular-priced six-cylinder version, then you step up to an eight, then you step up to the next eight, all the way up to 500 hp or whatever size V-8s we have. Any V-8 engine that General Motors manufactures today is potentially slated for this car. You always would like to keep the Corvette with a few horsepower more than a Camaro. Theoretically, anything is possible.


Hybrids and V-8s
It is two markets. I mean, the whole country is schizophrenic.

On the one hand, we have one end of the market that is all ecology, hybrid, let's get the fuel cell as quickly as possible, very concerned about the potential impact of the car on society, and so forth. And at the other end of the spectrum, you've got people wanting ever more horsepower out of V-8s. They want V-10s, they want V-12s, they want the million-dollar Bugatti Veyron with 1,000 hp. So I would call it diversity in the market.

And in Hollywood, you have some people who are both. They will have a Lamborghini Gallardo and a Toyota Prius in the same garage.

That is the reality of the market. We just respond to it.

Any thing Lutz says needs to have about 50 of these with it - ;)

I hope that the first v8 we can step into is a LS4 with DoD mated to a six speed without a SS or Z/28 attached...great article

Excellent info-- thanks--

I like the statement about keeping true to the concept for production-- that's extremely encouraging!

And a genuinely diverse engine lineup? HELL YES!!!

I would LOVE to have the option of the lowly 6-banger for the style-only cheap-entertainment crowd, something like the 5.3 V-8 for an "RS" trim, and the badass 6.0 for the Z/28....

Oh man... the good news keeps building, and my hope increases... :)

Good find Charlie. Nice to see we might get a big motor for this cars top package.

I find this comment particularly funny though...

But unlike the equally praised Dodge Challenger concept and today's Ford Mustang, the Camaro does not merely display a strong retro theme.
... for two reasons. One, that they say the equally praised Challenger... right. Did anyone else hear much about it after the Camaro debuted? :puzzled: Second... good to see others say the Camaro is NOT as retro, for those that contend its too retro, or even equally as retro as Mustand and Challenger.

Bob Lutz. The best leak at GM. :bow:

Bob Lutz. The best leak at GM. :bow:


LOL. :D Finally!!! :bow:

Rick saw the pictures and said, "Why are we doing this? Let's have another go at it and create a new car that captures the spirit of the '69, because that is what you really want. You don't want to repeat the past slavishly. You want to do a vehicle that captures all of the spirit, the passion, the essence of the old car, but reinterpret it in a new and modern and contemporary way that is going to last awhile."

I'm so happy they took the time to put this thinking into the GTO. :rolleyes:

Maybe next time.

We need to have this sticky'd!!! It would answer SOOOOOOOOO many of the questions that get asked.....it's retro, it won't have the big engine, it will be too expensive, ect..ect....

Bob Lutz. The best leak at GM. :bow:


:lol: good news just keeps on coming......

:D I'm so happy they took the time to put this thinking into the GTO. :rolleyes:

Maybe next time.
IMHO with the GTO, time was not something they had much of. They had to get something out there quick, and they did. IMO it's actually a pretty nice car. Gotta love Lutz mentioning the "500 hp motor", makes the idea more than wishful thinking. :D

"You always would like to keep the Corvette with a few horsepower more than a Camaro. " That means we have to keep an eye as to what horse power levels the vette gets to get an idea of what the camaro will get

then you step up to the next eight, all the way up to 500 hp or whatever size V-8s we have. Any V-8 engine that General Motors manufactures today is potentially slated for this car. You always would like to keep the Corvette with a few horsepower more than a Camaro. Theoretically, anything is possible.

Put me down for the LS7. I don't care what it costs, as long as it's less than a Corvette.

happy mondays

Thats all great news...

Just keep the mid level V8 at a reasonable HP level, (less than 400) and a base price just under 30k and we will have a hot seller!

I think I'm starting to fall off the fence on to the 500 hp level top Camaro side.

I think I'm starting to fall off the fence on to the 500 hp level top Camaro side.



TRAITOR!!!!!!!!!:p

:D
IMHO with the GTO, time was not something they had much of. They had to get something out there quick, and they did. IMO it's actually a pretty nice car. Gotta love Lutz mentioning the "500 hp motor", makes the idea more than wishful thinking. :D

They had time since 1999 when the GTO concept came out. They squander that opportunity also IMO.

TRAITOR!!!!!!!!!:p


Hey!!!! That's my line!! Get your own Billy!

Good thing Stars is starting to see the light! Next I will have him admitting Super Sport is the proper top model designation :eek: ;) :bow:

Where are all those guys who said there was no chance in H*LL that we'd see an LS7, or any 500hp motor?

They had time since 1999 when the GTO concept came out. They squander that opportunity also IMO.
The GTO concept was way too over the top, and batmobile-ish to ever have mass appeal, MO of course! I hope the LS7 won't be an SS only option. I'm more partial to Z/28's, though I still like SS's. Speaking of the GTO, I'm wondering now with all the Camaro Concept pics out, what the next GTO will look like? If it looks anywhere near as good as the Camaro, that'll be great.

They had time since 1999 when the GTO concept came out. They squander that opportunity also IMO.

the 1999 GTO concept car had nothing whatsoever to do with the GTO that's available today.

Read back thru this site....oh.........say to about 2000.

GM was soundly thrashed for not bringing the Holden Monaro to this country. With the advent of the Fcar going on hiatus, many people felt it was crucial for GM to offer some type of RWD performance car that would comfortably hold 4 passengers.

Thus, the Holden Monaro was brought to the U.S. --tens of millions of dollars were spent to make it comply with all U.S. Safety and Emissions standards.........and viola......the GTO.

Many of the same people that caterwalled that we should bring the Monaro to these shores are the same people caterwalling about the GTO........how 'bout them apples???

I don't think I'd have called it GTO, but then, I didn't get a vote. (nor should I have........)

It's very easy to complain on a website.......it's also very easy to change direction hoping that no one will notice.

the 1999 GTO concept car had nothing whatsoever to do with the GTO that's available today.

Read back thru this site....oh.........say to about 2000.

GM was soundly thrashed for not bringing the Holden Monaro to this country. With the advent of the Fcar going on hiatus, many people felt it was crucial for GM to offer some type of RWD performance car that would comfortably hold 4 passengers.

Thus, the Holden Monaro was brought to the U.S. --tens of millions of dollars were spent to make it comply with all U.S. Safety and Emissions standards.........and viola......the GTO.

Many of the same people that caterwalled that we should bring the Monaro to these shores are the same people caterwalling about the GTO........how 'bout them apples???

I don't think I'd have called it GTO, but then, I didn't get a vote. (nor should I have........)

It's very easy to complain on a website.......it's also very easy to change direction hoping that no one will notice.

Thats true. I remember reading an article about the Monaro that specifically said "Bring the muscle car home GM!" Now when its compared to mustang its too heavy even though its faster. But when its compared to the Charger it doesnt have enough Navigation, and other stuff that would make it heavier...

...Good read :)

Did I miss the press realease of a Camaro green light?

Did I miss the press realease of a Camaro green light?


No, but its so almost official it is almost official, LOL.

We've gotten everything but the official green light.

the 1999 GTO concept car had nothing whatsoever to do with the GTO that's available today.

Read back thru this site....oh.........say to about 2000.

GM was soundly thrashed for not bringing the Holden Monaro to this country. With the advent of the Fcar going on hiatus, many people felt it was crucial for GM to offer some type of RWD performance car that would comfortably hold 4 passengers.

Thus, the Holden Monaro was brought to the U.S. --tens of millions of dollars were spent to make it comply with all U.S. Safety and Emissions standards.........and viola......the GTO.

Many of the same people that caterwalled that we should bring the Monaro to these shores are the same people caterwalling about the GTO........how 'bout them apples???

I don't think I'd have called it GTO, but then, I didn't get a vote. (nor should I have........)

It's very easy to complain on a website.......it's also very easy to change direction hoping that no one will notice.

i'm glad they brought the Monaro over here, i love the car, and i love the GTO.. it's a very nice car... i don't think they shouldve called it the GTO though..i think it wouldve been better received by the public if it did not carry that historical name... what's done is done..

the 1999 GTO concept car had nothing whatsoever to do with the GTO that's available today.

Read back thru this site....oh.........say to about 2000.

GM was soundly thrashed for not bringing the Holden Monaro to this country. With the advent of the Fcar going on hiatus, many people felt it was crucial for GM to offer some type of RWD performance car that would comfortably hold 4 passengers.

Thus, the Holden Monaro was brought to the U.S. --tens of millions of dollars were spent to make it comply with all U.S. Safety and Emissions standards.........and viola......the GTO.

Many of the same people that caterwalled that we should bring the Monaro to these shores are the same people caterwalling about the GTO........how 'bout them apples???

I don't think I'd have called it GTO, but then, I didn't get a vote. (nor should I have........)

It's very easy to complain on a website.......it's also very easy to change direction hoping that no one will notice.
my only beef is that they didn't get it to the canadian standards. :mad: :o

Good thing Stars is starting to see the light! Next I will have him admitting Super Sport is the proper top model designation :eek: ;) :bow:

Dont push yer luck buddy!;)

...No nails left to bite!.... Now we have finally got the concept! Lets hope they make it into production!

I hope the LS7 won't be an SS only option.

On the contrary, I hope it will. It was a HUGE mistake with the 4th gen, the only thing that differentiated the SS and Z was a hood, spoiler, catback, shocks and wheels, oh wait, and SS floormats :rolleyes:

I would LOVE to see the SS badge mean something, like more power, better handling, better braking. :cool:

I can't wait to see what v8s will actually be available when the car finally comes out, and what engines are actually in the pipeline.

LS7:cool:

On the contrary, I hope it will. It was a HUGE mistake with the 4th gen, the only thing that differentiated the SS and Z was a hood, spoiler, catback, shocks and wheels, oh wait, and SS floormats :rolleyes:

I would LOVE to see the SS badge mean something, like more power, better handling, better braking. :cool:

So the Z28 Road Racer isnt the ultimate road car anymore and becomes a base model? common... :rolleyes:

How much would an LS7 Camaro cost? 40K, 45K, 50K?

I was always on the side beleiveing the 427 could be offered. GM can do whatever it wants.

I liked this excerpt the best

...For production we would obviously do like we did in the old days -- you would have a popular-priced six-cylinder version, then you step up to an eight, then you step up to the next eight

Sounds like an RS V8 to me!

How much would an LS7 Camaro cost? 40K, 45K, 50K?


read...
If we were to put this car into production, it would be priced with the Mustang

I would think that means the top Camaro has to be in line pricewise with the top Mustang. So if GT500 is 40, Top Dog is 40. Don't think you'll see many, nor would they sell many, $50,000 Camaros.

I'm sorry but I just don't think the SS badge means much, its not pure. Its been on a lot of other models. To me Z28 is to the Camaro as the Z06 has become to the Vette. I think Z28 should be the top model, maybe an RS middle model with a v-8. But if I had to buy an SS to get an xtra 100 horse I think I would get some z28 badges for it. I mean do we really want to share the SS badge with the cobalt, and everything else. Z28 distinguishes the Camaro IMO.

The "SS" term has been down-marketed so completely by the endlessly tacky marketing dept. at GM, that I honestly, truly pray that it never again makes an appearance on a Camaro.

They have pussified it so much by taping it onto vanilla V-6 Monte-carlo's and whatnot that any prestige that once came with the name now means nothing.

The "SS" term has been down-marketed so completely by the endlessly tacky marketing dept. at GM, that I honestly, truly pray that it never again makes an appearance on a Camaro.there WILL BE! a SS camaro. bet on it.

i think there will and should be an SS camaro.. but i think the Z28 should reign as the top model, put an LS7 in it, price it to compete with the GT500

there is only one Z28, and that's a camaro, the SS moniker is across the Chevy line.. as Scott likes to say, if it's an SS, you know it's a chevy, if it's a Z28, you know it's a Camaro..

so, like the Vette's Z06, the Camaro should have it's top of the line Z28.. they should have a
base camaro LZ8 250hp v6, $20,000
an RS mid range LS4 300hp v8, $25,000
the LS2 400hp SS, $30,000
and the top of the line LS7 500HP z28, $40,000

RS shouldn't automatically mean V8. Rally Sport was originally a style package that offered different headlamps, tail lamps and chrome trim. It was available on every Camaro from the base 230cid-L6, to the SS-350, to the Z/28 race car in street trim. The only trim options that couldn't be combined were SS and Z/28.

If GM wants to make a spoiler/stripe style package called "RS" make it optional across the board on any model Camaro. (Convertible included.)

People have been suggesting a base V6, a performance V6, a base V8 and a performance V8. (And then a little later a Super-performance V8.) Although Lutz himself suggested that any engine in GM's stable could end up in a production Camaro, I just don't see a need for a performance V6 AND a base V8. The two are going to cut into the same market, especially when you consider the V8s will have AFM. I don't buy the "insurance is less for a V6" argument either. As I have reported on numerous occasions, that is a myth and my own personal experience when checking insurance prices with my carrier for my then 16 year-old son, I found that the cost to insure a V6 Mustang was double that of a V8 Mustang GT. Its based on historical data for each particular model and varies by carrier. (Check with your carrier for your costs.)

As I see it there needs to be only two engine options initially, but I can see three if that's what people want.

Base V6 (3.5L 200-250hp)
Base V8 with AFM (5.3L ~300hp)
SS V8 with AFM (6.0L N/A or possibly supercharged 5.3L ~400-450hp)

A little later (12-18 mos.) GM can introduce a Super Camaro street-racer with 500+hp to go against the GT-500. (This will be the Camaro I purchase.)

i think there will and should be an SS camaro.. but i think the Z28 should reign as the top model, put an LS7 in it, price it to compete with the GT500

there is only one Z28, and that's a camaro, the SS moniker is across the Chevy line.. as Scott likes to say, if it's an SS, you know it's a chevy, if it's a Z28, you know it's a Camaro..

so, like the Vette's Z06, the Camaro should have it's top of the line Z28..


That's exactly what I've been saying. Agree whole heartedly. Z28 is and means and stands for Camaro.

The "SS" questions will always loom. I bought the last SS Camaro because of the look (spoiler & hood did it for me) and the legendary name. The watering down has gotten better over the last year (TrailBlazer & Cobalt, Imp/Monte at least got a V8), but there are questionable choices as well-Silverado, Malibu/Maxx. I will have an SS if it's available in the new gen.

questionable choices as well-Silverado, Malibu/Maxx. I will have an SS if it's available in the new gen.

questionable choices as SS Silverado? Its a Big Block right? Its lowered a bit of a hotrod. Thats the very definition of what SS is supposed to be.

I like what GM did with the Silverado and Trailblazer SS. Totally different animals then their siblings.

I believe from the beginning the Camaro SS has always tried standing at least a head above the Z28. I dont see that changing. I very much doubt we'll see a LS2 SS and a LS7 Z28, that would not make much sense.

I like what GM did with the Silverado and Trailblazer SS. Totally different animals then their siblings.

I believe from the beginning the Camaro SS has always tried standing at least a head above the Z28. I dont see that changing. I very much doubt we'll see a LS2 SS and a LS7 Z28, that would not make much sense.

The Hot Rod SS 350 & 396 was the Mach1 429 or 428 (I get those two confused) competition and The 302 Z28 SCCA Road racer was Boss Mustang SCCA Road Racer competition. A head above in what? The 1/4 mile? Who cares. It out handled the SS because thats what it was. What is it about Z28 ROAD RACER that people do not get?

As I recall back in the early 60's you could order a SS and it came with a base 6 cylinder and bucket seats and SS trim. SS certainly hasn't meant the same thing to every one, including Chevrolet.

The "SS" term has been down-marketed so completely by the endlessly tacky marketing dept. at GM, that I honestly, truly pray that it never again makes an appearance on a Camaro.

They have pussified it so much by taping it onto vanilla V-6 Monte-carlo's and whatnot that any prestige that once came with the name now means nothing.


you could say that about the 454SS truck, 83-88 Monte Carlo SS and the 01-04 Monte NA SS. But Chevys current SS lineup is so far froma stripe job its not evern funny. They'll beat most 60's SS cars.

But some how being mostly FWD (for now) is not good enough, and making too many SS is somehow bad:rolleyes:

Who cares what it's called. A 500HP Camaro is a 500HP Camaro.

Heck, they can call it a Camaro Si, and i'll still probably buy it.

I very much doubt we'll see a LS2 SS and a LS7 Z28, that would not make much sense.

Sorry but I disagree.

An "SS" is a performance/luxury Chevrolet. A "Z/28" is Camaro race car in street trim. The LS2 is GM's V8 performance engine. The LS7 is a racing version in street trim based on the same V8 design. LS2 belongs with "SS" and LS7 belongs with "Z/28".

Several people disagree and have made cases to why "SS" should be top dog. History and fact say otherwise.

Others can continue to disagree. But I will never change my mind on this.

However, regardless of what GM calls it, I will buy the 500+hp version of the Camaro. (And it won't be called ZL1.) :D

Sorry but I disagree.

An "SS" is a performance/luxury Chevrolet. A "Z/28" is Camaro race car in street trim. The LS2 is GM's V8 performance engine. The LS7 is a racing version in street trim based on the same V8 design. LS2 belongs with "SS" and LS7 belongs with "Z/28".

(And it won't be called ZL1.) :D

...and the LS4 can be the base V8 or a RS version:D

Sorry but I disagree.

An "SS" is a performance/luxury Chevrolet. A "Z/28" is Camaro race car in street trim. The LS2 is GM's V8 performance engine. The LS7 is a racing version in street trim based on the same V8 design. LS2 belongs with "SS" and LS7 belongs with "Z/28".

Several people disagree and have made cases to why "SS" should be top dog. History and fact say otherwise.

Others can continue to disagree. But I will never change my mind on this.

However, regardless of what GM calls it, I will buy the 500+hp version of the Camaro. (And it won't be called ZL1.) :D

:bow: :bow:

I agree 110%. Give the race model the race designated engine.

Looks like the GT500 is gonna be having some company sooner or later. Good stuff for us Ford and Chevy fans.

Sorry but I disagree.

An "SS" is a performance/luxury Chevrolet. A "Z/28" is Camaro race car in street trim. The LS2 is GM's V8 performance engine. The LS7 is a racing version in street trim based on the same V8 design. LS2 belongs with "SS" and LS7 belongs with "Z/28".

Several people disagree and have made cases to why "SS" should be top dog. History and fact say otherwise.

Others can continue to disagree. But I will never change my mind on this.

However, regardless of what GM calls it, I will buy the 500+hp version of the Camaro. (And it won't be called ZL1.) :D
I agree with everything EXCEPT the ZL1 designation. Personally, I would like to be able to purchase a Z28 without having to pay upwards of 35k. I still agree that the Z28 should be somehow differentiated above the SS, but IF the LS7 somehow finds its way into the Camaro, I dont see that version of the Camaro being particularly affordable.

i like how this post turned into another z28 vs. ss thread...

Modern styling
I've got to say that Rick Wagoner deserves a lot of the credit for it because the early clay models that we had were much more in keeping with the '60s through the '70s.

Rick saw the pictures and said, "Why are we doing this? Let's have another go at it and create a new car that captures the spirit of the '69, because that is what you really want. You don't want to repeat the past slavishly. You want to do a vehicle that captures all of the spirit, the passion, the essence of the old car, but reinterpret it in a new and modern and contemporary way that is going to last awhile."


I like the concept alot but I wish Wagnoner hadnt stopped what they had going. The concept answered the question where do we go after retro which I thought was obvious. I hope the car gets the swooshes. and either looses the braces in the grille or gets them blacked out.

The LS7 Camaro was never a rumor, it was mentioned from day 1 by Bob Lutz, as quoted in my sigline from fastlane.gmblogs.com

We'll see I guess :) .

David

I thought the LS4 was the FWD motor?

In all honesty, Id probably opt for a mid 400 hp L92/LS3 6.2 in my Z28. I dunno if Id jump up to the 500hp car just yet.
I will get a Z28, and I want it red!!

I'm down with the peeps cryin out for a v8 RS...my RS was a small-block 305,so I doubt an RS with a V8 was unheard of.But I agree/think it would be all the more sweeter if they offered the combining of the trim levels.SS/RS,Z28/RS like back in the day.You see in my mind,I'm thinkin those had to have been some of the sweetest and baddest maros of them all,aside from the COPO models.And please don't flame me for that comment.But yeah that's just my two cents and my mentality behind it all...:D

You Z/28 guys need to give it up. . . aint going to happen.



What's not going to happen?

As for the original article posted. . . . I'll believe the whole 500hp thing when I see it. :shrug:

Fair enough;)

They should just call the top Camaro Firebird. ;)

Burn him, and then scatter the ashes. See if he can be reborn from that ! :p

The whole Z/28 is/should be the top model of Camaro offered vs the SS.
It should happen, Z28 just sounds more Top Model to me then SS.

It should happen, Z28 just sounds more Top Model to me then SS.

You're nuts. :o

You're nuts. :o

Pretty rude comment, if you ask me.

the future Corvette line-up will give us a good view of where GM stands on the issue...

Pretty rude comment, if you ask me.

But accurate.

But accurate.

Agreed, although they can slap a Type-R badge on it and i'll still buy it if it has 500 horses. I couldn't care less what badge is on it at this point.

Agreed, although they can slap a Type-R badge on it and i'll still buy it if it has 500 horses. I couldn't care less what badge is on it at this point.


Believe me, it won't be called Type-R, or share it's badge with sedans and trucks...

Believe me, it won't be called Type-R, or share it's badge with sedans and trucks...

I really think some Z28 diehards take this way too seriously. I'd say the vast majority of the SS owners really don't care what it's called. I know I don't.

I say if it's a 500HP Camaro, just enjoy the fact that you're getting a 500HP Camaro straight from the factory -- warranty and all. Emblems on the side be damned. :

Believe me, it won't share it's badge with sedans and trucks...

It did with the last top of the line F-body, and it will again in the new Camaro. ;)

Believe me, it won't be called Type-R, or share it's badge with sedans and trucks...

are you saying a hypothetical 500 HP Camaro would not wear a bowtie? The COPO wore the bow tie but it was a base model body with top notch motor. Its Should have a ZL1 badge Designed the way the Z06 badge is or the way the origional Z28 badge was, only say ZL1 to make it accurate.

It did with the last top of the line F-body, and it will again in the new Camaro. ;)

Interesting, explain why to me....HOTCIVIC.

Interesting, explain why to me....HOTCIVIC.

We all know it didnt but it did in 69

We all know it didnt but it did in 69

What did?

What did?

The 69 427 BB COPO Camaro which would be equivelent to LS7 SB today shared the blue bow tie that was on the hood of the 69 C-10 The Blue bowtie on the C-10 Bow Tie was alot bigger though.

The 69 427 BB COPO Camaro which would be equivelent to LS7 SB today shared the blue bow tie that was on the hood of the 69 C-10 The Blue bowtie on the C-10 Bow Tie was alot bigger though.

Bowtie? Who's talking about a blue bowtie? :confused:

Believe me, it won't be called Type-R, or share it's badge with sedans and trucks...

Bowtie? Who's talking about a blue bowtie? :confused:

I used the blue bowtie because thats what color it was when the Chevy Truck shared the Emblem with the top of the line Camaro. You did mean top of the line wont share its badge with trucks the way it did in 69

I used the blue bowtie because thats what color it was when the Chevy Truck shared the Emblem with the top of the line Camaro. You did mean top of the line wont share its badge with trucks the way it did in 69

I was referring to the SS badge on sedans and trucks.

I was referring to the SS badge on sedans and trucks.

Yes but the Z designation as in the Z71 is on the trucks as well if you were going the Z28 exclusive argument.

Yes but the Z designation as in the Z71 is on the trucks as well if you were going the Z28 exclusive argument.

I can honestly say that I've never seen a Z/28 truck or sedan.

I can honestly say that I've never seen a Z/28 truck or sedan.

Yeah, the Z series road racers to Chevy to me is like the M series to BMW. I think it should be ZL1 though because thats what the COPOs were. Z28 should be an LS2 GMachine in my book. I also dont care what years SS were not built or what years Z28 was built. I care about the definitions what the cars were.

I can honestly say that I've never seen a Z/28 truck or sedan.

I had to quote this. Had to.

:thumb: ;)

I'd say the vast majority of the SS owners really don't care what it's called. I know I don't.

I agree. The difference is the Z28 guys, which there are more of, do care.

Interesting, explain why to me....HOTCIVIC.

SS Silverado? SS Monte Carlo? SS Impala? Were those not available in 00 to 02?

SS Silverado? SS Monte Carlo? SS Impala? Were those not available in 00 to 02?

I believe they were not.

The point being?

I believe they were not.

The point being?

You stated the new Camaro would not share its badge with sedans and trucks.

The previous SS Camaro shared its SS badge with with the Monte Carlo SS and Impala SS. So its badge was shared with other sedans, and I'm saying the new SS will as well.

You stated the new Camaro would not share its badge with sedans and trucks.

The previous SS Camaro shared its SS badge with with the Monte Carlo SS and Impala SS. So its badge was shared with other sedans, and I'm saying the new SS will as well.


What was that Led Zeppelin song? Communication Breakdown....

I never said that.

I never said there wouldn't be a Camaro SS.

What was that Led Zeppelin song? Communication Breakdown....

I never said that.

I never said there wouldn't be a Camaro SS.

Believe me, it won't be called Type-R, or share it's badge with sedans and trucks...

Eh - forget it.

What was that Led Zeppelin song? Communication Breakdown....



:thumb: I just dont think Z28 should be the 500 hp LS7 and be put out of the majority of consumers reach. I definately think there should be an LS7 Camaro with a Z designation.

:thumb: I just dont think Z28 should be the 500 hp LS7 and be put out of the majority of consumers reach. I definately think there should be an LS7 Camaro with a Z designation.

Well, a 500 hp Camaro remains to be seen. Horsepower will not come as easily in afew years. Emissions are going to be a tougher hurtle.

Thanks for the info z284ever.

why are we, the f-body faithful, arguing over something as trivial as z/28 as top dog vs the SS as top dog?! the z was a high winding corner carving scca special! the SS the drag and street bruiser (at least until the 4th gens) are you telling me theres not room for BOTH!!!:D

How does this sound?

Corvette 450HP/BaseV8 Camaro "440"HP
Z06Vette 500HP/Z28SS Camaro "490"HP
Blue Devil 600+? HP

The Base Camaro and Vette will share an engine and the Z06 will not have the LS7 anymore, but the N/A version of the Blue Devil's engine. The Top level Camaro will then get a "detuned" Z06 engine. That still leaves the weight advantage (500lbs+) and an entire super Vette to seperate the Corvette from the Camaro.

How does this sound?

Corvette 450HP/BaseV8 Camaro "440"HP
Z06Vette 500HP/Z28SS Camaro "490"HP
Blue Devil 600+? HP

The Base Camaro and Vette will share an engine and the Z06 will not have the LS7 anymore, but the N/A version of the Blue Devil's engine. The Top level Camaro will then get a "detuned" Z06 engine. That still leaves the weight advantage (500lbs+) and an entire super Vette to seperate the Corvette from the Camaro.

sorry, thats a tad greedy and the prices would be astronomical...

sorry, thats a tad greedy and the prices would be astronomical...

The bread and butter V8 is going to be 400+HP, because the GTO is already there right now. I don't think my numbers are far off based on the rumored power of the future Corvettes.

Keep in mind that "440hp" is going to placed where our Z28 is now. The "490HP" car is going to be a "limited production" car. It's already been said we won't get a true mid-level V8, more like a V6, V8, and a super V8.

How about this?

Base Camaro = V6 250 hp $20,000
SS Camaro = V8 300 hp (5.3) $25,000
Z28 Camaro = V8 400 hp (6.0) $30,000
ZL1 Camaro = V8 500 hp (7.0) $40,000 GT-500 fighter

How about this?

Base Camaro = V6 250 hp $20,000
SS Camaro = V8 300 hp (5.3) $25,000
Z28 Camaro = V8 400 hp (6.0) $30,000
ZL1 Camaro = V8 500 hp (7.0) $40,000 GT-500 fighter

I think that is more realistic considering the cheapest muscle car with the LS2 was the GTO at $30k Otherwise there would be a gap between LS2 and V6

Im sorry but seeing a SS in 2009 with only 300hp just wont cut it.

Im sorry but seeing a SS in 2009 with only 300hp just wont cut it.
:think:





:p

The Camaro SS should have 1000HP and run on nitromethane.

The Camaro SS should have 1000HP and run on nitromethane.
If it only has 1000hp when it comes out, ill be very disapointed! I want 1500hp at least....but I guess I could live with 350hp in an SS, cuz as we all know thats not the top model Camaro:eek:

How about this?

Base Camaro = V6 250 hp $20,000
SS Camaro = V8 300 hp (5.3) $25,000
Z28 Camaro = V8 400 hp (6.0) $30,000
ZL1 Camaro = V8 500 hp (7.0) $40,000 GT-500 fighter

I could go for that. But bump the 5.3L to 325hp-340hp (its already making more then 300hp in most applications right now) and I don't think the LS2 will be around by then. Maybe a 6.2L 430hp:D

The Camaro SS should have 1000HP and run on nitromethane.

The Z28 should really just be a Fighter Jet that GM creates solely for the Air Force. It will be too fast to stay on the ground. Remember, it has to live up to the Z28 name that has always been the fastest thing on the planet.

Im sorry but seeing a SS in 2009 with only 300hp just wont cut it.

How bout a full thought kido?!?

Make an argument to support your claim....(so I can prove you wrong) :)

The Z28 should really just be a Fighter Jet that GM creates solely for the Air Force. It will be too fast to stay on the ground. Remember, it has to live up to the Z28 name that has always been the fastest thing on the planet.


Now you're coming around.........:cool:

How bout a full thought kido?!?

Make an argument to support your claim....(so I can prove you wrong) :)
I dunno its probably just me but by time 2009 rolls around 300hp just wont be alot imo.

These are what I think the HP should range in

Base V6 - 3.9L 250-290hp
Base V8 - 5.3L 350-375hp
SS - LS2 6.0L 400-425hp
Z28 - LS3 6.2L 450-475hp


Maybe im thinkin to high I dunno thats just my guess in areas oh hp. Ready for you to prove me wrong now stefan;)

These are what I think the HP should range in

Base V6 - 3.9L 250-290hp
Base V8 - 5.3L 350-375hp
SS - LS3 6.2L 450-475hp
Z28 - LS9 6.2L SC 550-575hp


I fixed your typos for you. ;)

It will be interesting to see what they do, if they build it.

Its simple guys....

We have to assasinate the 'Vette. That's all there is to it! lol :p

Am I the only one that sees irony in a base v8 making way more (rated) power than an LS1?

I thought a big detractor to the F-bod's of recent past was the fact that they made too much power for the average consumer?

I understand that GM doesn't lose HP wars, so I would set it around 310-325hp max. They want to outdo mustang by a little, but not enough to scare away the buyer who just wants a v8.

It wasnt the HP, it was the Mustang looked like a cute pony ride and across the street Chevy was selling a missle. :D

Am I the only one that sees irony in a base v8 making way more (rated) power than an LS1?

I thought a big detractor to the F-bod's of recent past was the fact that they made too much power for the average consumer?

I understand that GM doesn't lose HP wars, so I would set it around 310-325hp max. They want to outdo mustang by a little, but not enough to scare away the buyer who just wants a v8.

the big detractor was stale styling that had been around for 10 years, old technology, impractical doors, rear seats, seating position (like sitting in a bath tub).. hood that could not be seen, long front overhange making it easy to scrape the front end.. all those things, i think, made people shy away from the 4th gen in the later years

the big detractor was stale styling that had been around for 10 years, old technology, impractical doors, rear seats, seating position (like sitting in a bath tub).. hood that could not be seen, long front overhange making it easy to scrape the front end.. all those things, i think, made people shy away from the 4th gen in the later years

Exactly.

If the car is desirable and "cool", too much power is not going to steer clear the masses. The problem with the 4th gen was at the end of its run it just wasn't cool enough anymore to the buying public.

Am I the only one that sees irony in a base v8 making way more (rated) power than an LS1?

I thought a big detractor to the F-bod's of recent past was the fact that they made too much power for the average consumer?

I understand that GM doesn't lose HP wars, so I would set it around 310-325hp max. They want to outdo mustang by a little, but not enough to scare away the buyer who just wants a v8.

Yeah it had way too much horsepower! The front over hang wasnt long enough. and the engine wasnt far enough under the dash

Am I the only one that sees irony in a base v8 making way more (rated) power than an LS1?

I thought a big detractor to the F-bod's of recent past was the fact that they made too much power for the average consumer?

I understand that GM doesn't lose HP wars, so I would set it around 310-325hp max. They want to outdo mustang by a little, but not enough to scare away the buyer who just wants a v8.

no your not. I doubt it'd be over 325hp. I can't se the Mustang GT getting much of a power increase by the time the Camaro comes out. Thats what the specail edition mustangs are for.

To keep the price low, very few changes will ocour to the theoretical base V8--they grab it from the Tahoe, do some ECM tuning and an exhaust. (something like that)

Am I the only one that sees irony in a base v8 making way more (rated) power than an LS1?

I thought a big detractor to the F-bod's of recent past was the fact that they made too much power for the average consumer?

I understand that GM doesn't lose HP wars, so I would set it around 310-325hp max. They want to outdo mustang by a little, but not enough to scare away the buyer who just wants a v8.

Which is exactly why I initially said a base V8 isn't necessary for this car to be successful. Why build a 325hp small V8 when you can build a 325hp V6 just as easily? The V6 would satisfy the people that want cheaper insurance, better gas mileage, yet still enough performance to flogg a Mustang or two.

However AFM changes all this. If you can build a 400hp V8 that gets similar fuel efficency to a V6; do you still offer a V6 to statisfy the insurance companies and everyone else that still thinks a V6 is cheaper than a modern V8 with AFM? Unless they come up with a V6 with AFM or some other way to get 4-cylinder fuel efficency out of it; I just don't see the need for a V6 AND a base V8.

I'm beginning to think that we'll actually end up seeing a standard GM RWD V8, a bigger GM RWD V8 and an optional supercharged version of the bigger V8.

They do have the AFM V6s don't they? I don't know if they will make their way into the Camaro or not. I'm still concerned about V8 only because of the negative image that some people have of V8s as ancient and gas guzzlers. We need some marketing guru to find out if it would help or hurt sales.

They do have the AFM V6s don't they? I don't know if they will make their way into the Camaro or not.
I don't they they do... yet. At least I haven't found any information on any.
I'm still concerned about V8 only because of the negative image that some people have of V8s as ancient and gas guzzlers. We need some marketing guru to find out if it would help or hurt sales.
Actually, I'm not so much now. GM has been marketing the fact that they have a 303hp small-block V8 that gets 30mph highway in the Impala. By the time Camaro officially returns, GM could have saturated the market with the knowledge they have fuel efficient great performing V8s available.

It wasnt the HP, it was the Mustang looked like a cute pony ride and across the street Chevy was selling a missle. :D

great quote :bow:

Which is exactly why I initially said a base V8 isn't necessary for this car to be successful. Why build a 325hp small V8 when you can build a 325hp V6 just as easily? The V6 would satisfy the people that want cheaper insurance, better gas mileage, yet still enough performance to flogg a Mustang or two.

However AFM changes all this. If you can build a 400hp V8 that gets similar fuel efficency to a V6; do you still offer a V6 to statisfy the insurance companies and everyone else that still thinks a V6 is cheaper than a modern V8 with AFM? Unless they come up with a V6 with AFM or some other way to get 4-cylinder fuel efficency out of it; I just don't see the need for a V6 AND a base V8.

I'm beginning to think that we'll actually end up seeing a standard GM RWD V8, a bigger GM RWD V8 and an optional supercharged version of the bigger V8.

Are you saying a base car would have an LS2? All great points but I dont think you could start this car with LS2 around 20K

Are you saying a base car would have an LS2? All great points but I dont think you could start this car with LS2 around 20K

I think he meant base v8....like the Mustang GT and not the base v6.

Actually, I'm not so much now. GM has been marketing the fact that they have a 303hp small-block V8 that gets 30mph highway in the Impala. By the time Camaro officially returns, GM could have saturated the market with the knowledge they have fuel efficient great performing V8s available.

You would think so but that isn't the case. Perceptions/stigma's don't die that easy. They see a 5.3L Ls4 engine and automatically assume it guzzles way more gas than the smaller 3.9L v6 when that is far from true. The average person can't get it in their head that the Ls4 impala's combined average fuel economy rating is actually identical to the 3.9L impala's. To them, this defies logic. The average consumer doesn't understand tq, gearing, powerband, nor the workings of DOD. Alot just go off stigmas and perceptions. On top of the fuel concern, there's also the insurance concern. Again, people see a v8 and 300+hp and automatically assume it's expensive to insure. That's another marketing hurdle.

Are you saying a base car would have an LS2? All great points but I dont think you could start this car with LS2 around 20K

I'm saying LS2 won't even be an option by the time Camaro returns. There are several other V8 engines on the near horizon.

I'm saying LS2 won't even be an option by the time Camaro returns. There are several other V8 engines on the near horizon.

the LS1 was around in the vette for 7 years.. the LS2 will only have been around for 4 years by 2009. i don't know if there will be a different engine by then.. sure it'll probably get tuned up a few horsepower like the vette, which went from 345 to 350.. not much of a difference in rating though

The rumor mill says the LS2 is being replaced by the LS3 ; I think in 2008.