Is "Buy American" U.S.A. only or is it North America [Archive]

Threxx

01-20-2006, 01:41 PM

soul strife

01-20-2006, 02:08 PM

Yep. Domestic counts Canada. Just like my Canadian Firebird. Got to love my brother's up north.

1990 Turbo Grand Prix

01-20-2006, 02:18 PM

I’ve engaged this topic in one way or another at length (although it’s been quite a while ago since I last posted).

The arguments about “foreign”/“domestic” vehicles are pretty tiresome and for the most part, based largely on emotion and feelings. Posters often argue about where the “profits” go or where the company headquarters are located while having no real concept of what that actually means or even if what they think they know of such matters is true/accurate. They strain and contort themselves to find some rational way to justify saying “GM” is “American” and “Toyota” is not and will often ignore any facts that prove inconvenient for their particular viewpoint.

The fact is not that the world is changing - the fact is that the world has already changed; quite a while ago in fact.

Most companies today (of any significant size) are multi-national and use goods/services/raw materials/labor from dozens and dozens of different countries and have “headquarters” in multiple locations. What may have been an “American” company 60 years ago is very likely NOT the same company today.

We can all argue about what “buying American” means all day long and come up with all sorts of emotional rationalizations to justify a particular opinion but that won’t change the simple truth that “buying American” today is NOT the same thing as “buying American” 40 years ago and I seriously doubt that it ever will be again.
You know what's funny?

The two people that constantly type like this are the owners of multiple imported cars. Hmmm.....

Rob_Nash, we've been through this before, and while I'll agree that the times have changed, to even insinuate that buying an import is even close to as adventageous for our country as buying a domestic branded make is simply incorrect, shortsighted, and misinformed.

Look at the facts and the big picture. Even forget about the profit arguement. Think about who's paying the taxes in this country for starters. Why are import makers building factories over here? Do you know why? Do a little research and you'll find it isn't to please the American people.

There are people who will argue that GM got themselves in their situation by not building this and by not doing that etc. But face it import buying, GM criticizing, "Global-Economists", GM builds a model of quality for every major market segment in the US auto industry. If you choose to believe different, you are only fooling yourself.

:)

centric

01-20-2006, 03:02 PM

You know what's funny?

The two people that constantly type like this are the owners of multiple imported cars. Hmmm.....:)

Yep, it's called rationalization.

As in, telling yourself you made the right decision. Over and over. Even though, if you made the right decision, you wouldn't be so conscious of it.

We all do it.

But we've been through that before, too.

Robert_Nashville

01-20-2006, 04:22 PM

The two people that constantly type like this are the owners of multiple imported cars. Hmmm.....

As I said, this issue always breaks down rather quickly into emotional arguments and personal attacks and one has to go no further than your opening line.

Insinuating that the opinion of anyone who owns an “imported" car should be automatically discounted; as if what vehicles a person owns or doesn't own has anything to do with the value or accuracy of their argument, is much easier than making a legitimate, well researched, factually based counter-argument.

Rob_Nash, we've been through this before, and while I'll agree that the times have changed, to even insinuate that buying an import is even close to as adventageous for our country as buying a domestic branded make is simply incorrect, shortsighted, and misinformed.

I don’t have to insinuate that buying an import is even as close to as advantageous for our country as buying a "domestic”…it IS as advantageous for our country by any objective standard you wish to apply. If you want to put forward a specific example with objective facts to back it up to support your opinion I'll be happy to respond in kind.

Look at the facts and the big picture. Even forget about the profit arguement. Think about who's paying the taxes in this country for starters. Why are import makers building factories over here? Do you know why? Do a little research and you'll find it isn't to please the American people.

Who is paying the taxes in this country? Well, companies that do business here and people who make and spend money here pay the taxes...what’s your point? What taxes do you think aren’t being paid and/or who isn’t paying???

That aside, you are absolutely right that Nissan, Toyota, Honda, Mercedes Benz, et al, build production plants here not to please the “American people” – they build here because it’s good for Nissan, Toyota, Honda and Mercedes Benz which is precisely the SAME reason why GM, Ford, and every other company (auto-industry related or not) does anything…because it’s good for THAT company.

There are people who will argue that GM got themselves in their situation by not building this and by not doing that etc. But face it import buying, GM criticizing, "Global-Economists", GM builds a model of quality for every major market segment in the US auto industry. If you choose to believe different, you are only fooling yourself.

No one is saying GM isn’t building some good vehicles and I’ve owned a lot of them…so what??? What does that have to do with this thread? And as to GM’s problems, I don’t see what that has to do with this thread either?

However, since you brought it up, whatever problems GM, Ford or any other company has ("American" or otherwise) rests with the management of those companies. Period. That maybe uncomfortable to hear but it’s the truth nevertheless.

------------------------------
What is usually at the heart of most “buy American” pundits can be traced back, directly or indirectly, to the UAW.

The UAW is beside itself over their lack of control of the domestically located “foreign” manufacturing plants. However, the UAW leadership is smart enough to know that most people today, aside from rank and file union members that is, are not going to respond well to “buy GM (or Ford, etc) because it’s UAW made and don’t buy a Toyota because it isn’t” UAW made argument. So…they couch their real opinion with references to “patriotism” or “where profits go” or “what’s good for America”, etc. etc which tends to resonate with more people even if those people have no earthly idea whether it’s a valid argument or not. After all, who wants to be "unpatriotic" or not do "what's good for America"!

I highly suspect that if the UAW successfully organized Nissan and Toyota, and the other domestic/foreign auto plants this whole “buy American” argument would be rendered silent other than for a few fringe elements.

1990 Turbo Grand Prix

01-20-2006, 05:12 PM

As I said, this issue always breaks down rather quickly into emotional arguments and personal attacks and one has to go no further than your opening line insinuating that the opinion of anyone who owns “imported cars” should be automatically discounted; as if what vehicles a person owns or doesn't own has anything to do with the facts in the first place.
Do you feel I discounted your opinion? You sure went through alot of trouble quoting me. I guess you do. Fair enough.

The way I see it, you are just rationalizing you purchase decision by coming up with bogus beliefs that foreign car purchases (whether produced in the USA or not) are just as beneficial to our economy as a domestic car. They're not, and until you can prove what you "think" is true, save your blather for the Nissan web page. I have hundreds of pages of information that I've collected through the recent years that disproves your theory. I don't have the time or the care to please you. Do you have any reason or proof, other than justifying your purchase, to believe or prove what you claim as fact and not justified fiction? You are the one who brought it up first.

You won't hear me say that that buying an American assembled Camry isn't somewhat beneficial to the country, but to what cost of current US based company's jobs, let alone the debate over the benefit from American assembled import labels versus American assembled domestics. You have no case.

I don’t have to insinuate that buying an import is even as close to as advantageous for our country as buying a "domestic”…it IS as advantageous for our country by any objective standard you wish to apply. If you want to put forward a specific example with objective facts to back it up to support your opinion I'll be happy to respond in kind.
Are you saying it's as adventageous, because if you are, you need to study up in a book of common sence, NOW!

As I mentioned in my first post, I don't mask that it isn't beneficial, just not to the level of a real domestic. Do you not agree?

Who is paying the taxes in this country? Well, companies that do business here and people who make and spend money here pay the taxes...what’s your point? What taxes do you think aren’t being paid and/or who isn’t paying???
When the government gives incredible tax breaks to attract import manufactures, who pays more in taxes? GM who isn't getting the breaks, or the import manufacture who have the huge breaks?

No one is saying GM isn’t building some good vehicles and I’ve owned a lot of them…so what??? What does that have to do with this thread? And as to GM’s problems, I don’t see what that has to do with this thread either?
Most people blame GM's problems on not enough quality and products. They are invalid points that need to be shut down immediately.

However, since you brought it up, whatever problems GM, Ford or any other “American” company has can be laid clearly at the feet of the management of those companies. Period. That maybe uncomfortable to hear but it’s the truth nevertheless.
That and the mindset of the American buying public. Remember, it was companies like GM and Ford that have made this country what it is. Having people receive far better than average wages and thus nicer living conditions and environment because of them, whether or not the companies wanted to or not thanks to early unions. Now lets just say "to hell with GM and their stupid ways?" Are we in China? Last time I checked we weren't.

It's a little hard to get out of union contracts when you need to. And seeing as how the union is being difficult, what do you propose GM and Ford do?

91Z28350

01-20-2006, 05:23 PM

Hey Hey Hey ...easy there ... us Manitobans don't drink milk from a bag ..... and since "our" Winnipeg Jets are now "your" Phoenix Coyotes .... you watch that pathetic bunch play hockey. :D

But I would like to thank Quebec for the Nordiques, as the Avalanche they have brought us two Stanley Cup hoistings!:bow:

Robert_Nashville

01-20-2006, 08:36 PM

Do you feel I discounted your opinion? You sure went through alot of trouble quoting me. I guess you do. Fair enough.

You said “The two people that constantly type like this are the owners of multiple imported cars. Hmmm.....”

Did I misunderstand your intent? If that comment was not intended to preemptively disparage the opinions of anyone who owns an ‘imported car” as you put it, then please enlighten myself and the rest of us as to your real meaning.

The way I see it, you are just rationalizing you purchase decision by coming up with bogus beliefs that foreign car purchases (whether produced in the USA or not) are just as beneficial to our economy as a domestic car. They're not, and until you can prove what you "think" is true, save your blather for the Nissan web page. I have hundreds of pages of information that I've collected through the recent years that disproves your theory. I don't have the time or the care to please you. Do you have any reason or proof, other than justifying your purchase, to believe or prove what you claim as fact and not justified fiction? You are the one who brought it up first.

You won't hear me say that that buying an American assembled Camry isn't somewhat beneficial to the country, but to what cost of current US based company's jobs, let alone the debate over the benefit from American assembled import labels versus American assembled domestics. You have no case.

Are you saying it's as adventageous, because if you are, you need to study up in a book of common sence, NOW!

As I mentioned in my first post, I don't mask that it isn't beneficial, just not to the level of a real domestic. Do you not agree?

I’ve no doubt you “see’ it that way. However, until such time as you (or GM) start paying my bills, I have no need or obligation to justify my purchasing decisions to you or anyone else. I buy what I want, when I want from whom I want based on what I want/need/can afford and what "nameplate" is on the vehicle is, at best, a minor consideration and I don't have to justify anything because I get up every morning, leave the cave and go out and kill something and drag it home.

As to the “how beneficial” to the United States a “domestic” car purchase is compared to a ”foreign” car purchase – that’s a read hearing issue at best.

Other than the nameplate stamped on the front end, the difference between a domestically produced Chevrolet and a domestically produced Toyota is so small as to be virtually un-measurable…whether in terms of raw materials, finished parts, labor, taxes or any other component; the difference is microscopic in terms of economic benefit to the United States. It’s very true that the purchase of an imported car is less “beneficial” to the United States than a domestically produced vehicle all other things being equal. However, to stop there is to ignore the more significant benefit to the economy of the US represented by the fact that a car was purchased at all. The fact that a car was purchased is far more beneficial to the economy overall than whether it's a domestic or foreign nameplate...money changed hands in the US…taxes were paid in the US…license fees are paid in the US…repair shops and those the employee make money in the US…I could go on but I think the point is clear. The point being that what is good for US is a lot more broad and complicated than whether I buy a Honda or a Chevy.

It's said when anyone looses a job but it's shortsighed to blame Nissan or Toyota or Honda for a lost job at GM or Ford. The process is called competition...it's called capitalism...it's called free enterprise and it's what our economy is based on...it's what has made our economy the envy of the world. If a comapny competes and doesn't fare well; blaming the competition becasue it competed will only deny the real problems and hasten the demise of the one who didn't fare well.

When the government gives incredible tax breaks to attract import manufactures, who pays more in taxes? GM who isn't getting the breaks, or the import manufacture who have the huge breaks?

That statement will have some legs if you can show even one documentable instance where a Toyota or Honda or Subaru or any other “foreign” nameplate was offered tax breaks by a local/state government to entice them to build a facility in that community that was not/would not have been offered to GM or Ford were they looking to move or expand.

I don’t happen to like the practice of taxing authorities offering tax breaks to compete with other taxing authorities to attract business (or sports teams or anything else for that matter) but the practice has absolutely nothing to do with whether the business being enticed is a GM or a Honda.

Most people blame GM's problems on not enough quality and products. They are invalid points that need to be shut down immediately.

Anyone who reduces GM’s problems to only quality and/or products” are extremely oversimplifying - GM (and Ford) has/has had a lot of problems and those problems have been in the making for decades. However, saying that GM hasn’t had quality problems and/or not had the right product at the right time is to deny the truth. I’m not saying GM hasn’t made some remarkable progress but let’s not pretend that they haven’t made some truly forgettable/poor quality cars over their lifetime.

Remember, it was companies like GM and Ford that have made this country what it is.

Oh my God…that’s such a drastically ass-backwards statement it almost hurts to read it.

Companies like GM and Ford have NOT made this country great…GM and Ford became great companies because this is a great country with great people who worked hard and built a society the likes of which the world has never known before and likely never will know again.

Now lets just say "to hell with GM and their stupid ways?" Are we in China? Last time I checked we weren't.

It's a little hard to get out of union contracts when you need to. And seeing as how the union is being difficult, what do you propose GM and Ford do?

No one, at least not I is saying “to hell” with GM. However, GM, like any other company will and should survive only if it can provide the products its customers want, when they want them at a price they can afford to pay….they don’t deserve to survive, and certainly not prosper simply because they are “GM”.

I think GM and Ford can make it…whether they will or not…I don’t know. What I do know is that the “buy American” mantra is not the answer to GM’s or Fords’ problems.

And if I had the answer to what GM should do about its union contracts I’d be knocking on their door and expecting a seven-figure income in return for the answer. However, that GM and the UAW got themselves into the mess the're in and they are going to have to figure something out if either is going to survive.

Now…I’m going to go fix my dinner and then wash and wax my 350Z!

1990 Turbo Grand Prix

01-20-2006, 10:27 PM

Did I misunderstand your intent?
Not really, I just wanted to point it out.

I’ve no doubt you “see’ it that way. However, until such time as you (or GM) start paying my bills, I have no need or obligation to justify my purchasing decisions to you or anyone else. I buy what I want, when I want from whom I want based on what I want/need/can afford and what "nameplate" is on the vehicle is, at best, a minor consideration and I don't have to justify anything because I get up every morning, leave the cave and go out and kill something and drag it home.
Absolutely, it is your right to purchase what you want for whatever reason you find fit. But when I read what you type, it really comes of as justification. I'm not the only one to have pointed this out over time.

As to the “how beneficial” to the United States a “domestic” car purchase is compared to a ”foreign” car purchase – that’s a read hearing issue at best.
A recent study showed that (going off memory here) for every percentage point of market share that GM loses, it costs something of ten to twenty thousand American jobs. I'd say that has an effect on our economy. Wouldn't you?

It's said when anyone looses a job but it's shortsighed to blame Nissan or Toyota or Honda for a lost job at GM or Ford. The process is called competition...it's called capitalism...it's called free enterprise and it's what our economy is based on...it's what has made our economy the envy of the world. If a comapny competes and doesn't fare well; blaming the competition becasue it competed will only deny the real problems and hasten the demise of the one who didn't fare well.
Read my last part again, please.

That statement will have some legs if you can show even one documentable instance where a Toyota or Honda or Subaru or any other “foreign” nameplate was offered tax breaks by a local/state government to entice them to build a facility in that community that was not/would not have been offered to GM or Ford were they looking to move or expand.
Keep in mind, Rob, that these are new factories coming in for the foreign makers. GM and Ford already have their factories here. So who's the ones with the major advantage right now? That's an easy, relevant question.

Anyone who reduces GM’s problems to only quality and/or products” are extremely oversimplifying - GM (and Ford) has/has had a lot of problems and those problems have been in the making for decades. However, saying that GM hasn’t had quality problems and/or not had the right product at the right time is to deny the truth.
Absolutely. But that was twenty years ago. That stereotype is far from true today. Not to mention that the imports have had their less than stellar moments too. Most notable for Japan in recent years, Nissan. Poor quality combined with near bankruptcy. Look where they are now, flourishing. Now why not GM? They've gone through much the same transition, but how are they "percieved"? What really makes the difference in this case? Mentality.

Oh my God…that’s such a drastically ass-backwards statement it almost hurts to read it.

Companies like GM and Ford have NOT made this country great…GM and Ford became great companies because this is a great country with great people who worked hard and built a society the likes of which the world has never known before and likely never will know again.
So you're saying that two of the largest companies in America didn't contribute to the prosperity of the USA? Come on now, you know better.

No one, at least not I is saying “to hell” with GM. However, GM, like any other company will and should survive only if it can provide the products its customers want, when they want them at a price they can afford to pay….they don’t deserve to survive, and certainly not prosper simply because they are “GM”.
So you are saying that GM and Ford don't make good enough products that people want at a good enough price? Maybe so, but why? One word, perception. Anything can be good or bad in one's mind if they want it to be.

I think GM and Ford can make it…whether they will or not…I don’t know. What I do know is that the “buy American” mantra is not the answer to GM’s or Fords’ problems.
I agree. But people could use being more open minded.

Now…I’m going to go fix my dinner and then wash and wax my 350Z!
Making light of owning a Japanese car assembled in Japan with Japanese content. That's ok, I'm a fan of the Z myself. I don't own one, but it's a very nice looking car, IMO. In fact, one really could make an argument that nobody makes an affordable six cylinder two seater car other than the Z right now, making an American equivelant impossible.

But that comment shows where you are really coming from in your posts. Thanks for clearing that up. Are you really happy that Nissan's new home is going to be in Nashville, Rob?

:)

SSbaby

01-20-2006, 11:18 PM

Buy American implies buy "American owned"... which would imply North America.

Why is there a play on words with American manufacturers whenever this question is asked... no spin on Asian owned companies?

The more Americans buy American, the greater the likelihood American companies will develop better products... The BIG 3 just need to make the right decisions to stay competitive... GM, Ford need only look at Chrysler to see how bright the future can look.

Robert_Nashville

01-21-2006, 08:52 AM

Buy American implies buy "American owned"... which would imply North America.

Why is there a play on words with American manufacturers whenever this question is asked... no spin on Asian owned companies?

The reason for the spin is that neither GM or Ford want American buyers to think too hard about who really owns GM and Ford and how the “buy American” mantra is more religion than fact to today.

And if “buy American” implies North America; would you ignore cars made in Hawaii? :)

Posters like "1990" conveniently overlook that the GM and Ford of today are not the GM or Ford their fathers and grandfathers worked for and purchased cars from and their logic breaks down extremely quickly if carried to its logical conclusion.

To truly “buy American" would mean that we would only buy cars made by companies who's workers are all (and only) American citizens living in the United States, who's stock is owned by only American citizens living in the United States and all design work, raw materials, and parts and assembly should done in the United States and/or come from suppliers/operations who are equally "American" owned and operated. Truly “American” car companies haven’t existed for decades but some refuse to see that inconvenient truth because it doesn’t fit their preconceived opinions.

Also, the only way the above can happen is if “America” becomes a totalitarian/dictatorial state where the government owns everything…I believe that’s called socialism.

If the logic was consistent and “1990” were truly as concerned with “buying American” and he and others claim to be, then he and all other of that ilk would refuse to buy an F-body made in Canada. If one TRULY thinks we should only buy American cars then there is no logical justification for buying the more recent F-body. Insted, since they want a new Camaro or Firebird, they buy the F-body irrespective of where it is actually manufactured and ignor the inconvenient truths.

The more Americans buy American, the greater the likelihood American companies will develop better products... The BIG 3 just need to make the right decisions to stay competitive... GM, Ford need only look at Chrysler to see how bright the future can look.

Well, the “Big 3” is now GM, Toyota and Ford and the “order” is likely to change in the next decade. Chrysler is doing some good things but still has a long way to go (and let’s not forget who really owns it, now). As to the rest of your statement, I have to disagree.

Americans buying more American is not what generates improvement. Quite the contrary...it's what generates sloth and poor quality and complacency.

The real pressure on the original, domestic Big 3 began in the very early 70’s but all three continued down their path of poor quality, overpriced, gas-guzzling cars and trucks for almost 15 years before they started to make significant changes. Chrusler was even slower to change and would have gone out of business completely had they not convinced the government to step in.

There is no question that GM and Ford and Chrysler have build some truly great cars in the past…I’ve owned several (from all three in fact). There is equally no doubt that they build some truly world-class cars today but if people had continued to simply, like sheep, buy whatever the Big 3 produced then those cars held up today as examples of GM’s/Ford's/Chrusler's best would not have made it to the drawing board much less into production.

If mediocrity is accepted; one will never get (and should never expect) excellence.

1990 Turbo Grand Prix

01-21-2006, 09:07 AM

Posters like "1990" conveniently overlook that the GM and Ford of today are not the GM or Ford their fathers and grandfathers worked for and purchased cars from and their logic breaks down extremely quickly if carried to its logical conclusion.
Seeing how you are an analyst, Rob, tell me what you think of this by our own member, Fbodfather:

STATEMENT: “OH YEAH? WELL MY TOYOTA/HONDA/BMW/MERCEDES IS BUILT HERE IN THE UNITED STATES!”

82% parts in the average GM car or truck are domestic content
At Honda, it’s 49%
At Toyota, it’s 41%
Nissan? 38%
BMW? 11%

(by the way……go look at what the ‘transplants’ pay in taxes….real estate, school, state and federal……you might be surprised……if you’re a teacher and you’re complaining about budgets in you’re driving a Toyota or Honda, SHUT UP!)

GM/Ford/and DCX provide 23.4 jobs per 100 vehicles sold in the United States

The Japanese competitors? 13.3 jobs per 100 vehicles sold in the United States

GM’s capital investment in the United States from 1999 thru 2003 was $20Billion. Toyota’s capital investment from 1980 thru 2003 was $10.7Billion. Nissan’s? 2.8Billion from 1980 thru 2003…Honda? $5.6Billion – ’80 thru ’03.

GM’s contribution to the U.S. Gross National Product (GNP) is 4 times that of Toyota

Every Day, over 1 million North Americans earn their living by helping GM build and sell cars in North America. – Every month, 457,000 retirees and their spouses count on GM for pension checks. More than 1.1 Million people receive health care benefits from GM. A one-point drop in GM market share results in over 18,000 jobs in the United States.

Kris93/95Z28

01-21-2006, 09:28 AM

How about we as consumers "Buy the best product for the best price, that has the requirements we were looking for in a car?"

You can tell me buy American all day long, but the truth of the matter is, if someone else could make a better pony car or sports sedan for the price, I wouldn't have a GTO or Z28.

Not being an expert, this just my thinking outloud: I see major issues with GM & Ford being their legacy & fixed costs due to the unions, and public perception of products (Whether that be real or imagined) on product, build, reliability, and dealer service.

These factors are within their control. They need to design better cars and get the word out that they are better, and the unions need to help them deliver those cars for a reasonable price (i.e. Make MAJOR concessions). If American companies can't/won't compete AND/OR the unions can't/won't allow them to compete, then what right do they have to exist?

Robert_Nashville

01-21-2006, 09:48 AM

I’m glad you at least admit when you use personal attacks rather than facts.

As to my “justification”; you take my statements as such only because YOU believe I need to justify my purchasing decisions – I don’t. I’m perfectly happy with the vehicles I own but if someone has a problem with what I choose to buy then THEY are the ones with the problem, not me.

A recent study showed that (going off memory here) for every percentage point of market share that GM loses, it costs something of ten to twenty thousand American jobs. I'd say that has an effect on our economy. Wouldn't you?
Of course it has an “effect” on the economy, especially on the people out of work. But such statements ignore the fact that people get other jobs and that Nissan, Toyota, Subaru, and other “foreign” nameplates who build factories employ thousands of workers when they build their factories.

Such statements also ignore all other factors such as, how many of those 10-20K lost jobs were “fat” in the first place and should have been “lost” whether there was a Nissan or Toyota around or not?

Keep in mind, Rob, that these are new factories coming in for the foreign makers. GM and Ford already have their factories here. So who's the ones with the major advantage right now? That's an easy, relevant question.
Yes they are new factories…that’s the point. Communities give tax incentives to businesses/organizations who want to bring something to an area that isn’t already there. As I asked, cite an example where GM or Ford was considering moving into a community where that community would not/did not offer the same sort of incentives to a Nissan or Toyota? Do you think GM/Saturn got nothing to put their factory in Spring Hill, TN??? Or are you simply saying that GM and Ford should get tax breaks simply because they are GM and Ford?

Absolutely. But that was twenty years ago. That stereotype is far from true today. Not to mention that the imports have had their less than stellar moments too. Most notable for Japan in recent years, Nissan. Poor quality combined with near bankruptcy. Look where they are now, flourishing. Now why not GM? They've gone through much the same transition, but how are they "percieved"? What really makes the difference in this case? Mentality.
The stereotype was formed because it was accurate and it isn’t quite as inaccurate today as you might like to think. The last three “foreign” vehicles I’ve owned combined have had fewer problems than I experienced with my 2000Z28. That doesn’t mean I didn’t love my Z28; it just means that GM hasn’t quite reached the level of success some would like to believe.

Yes…Nissan has had some “quality” issues and they’ve addressed/are addressing them. They aren’t perfect and I don’t believe I’ve heard anyone say they or any other manufacturer is. However, the issues you are referring to are based on surveys done within the first 6, 12, and 18 months after Nissan built an entirely new plant in Mississippi (launching five new vehicles there) and re-designed about 80% of its factory in Tennessee launching five new models there as well; two of which had never been build in the US before and all of that happened in a three year period.

Do you have any concept of what the equivalent change at GM would be…do you think they might have a few issues to resolve??? Perhaps GM and Ford’s biggest problem is that they wouldn’t have the guts to try it or even know how to make it happen if they did want to try it.

So you're saying that two of the largest companies in America didn't contribute to the prosperity of the USA? Come on now, you know better.
Of course they contributed to the prosperity of the USA; just as the Nissan plants in Tennessee and Mississippi does and Toyota’s and Mercedes Benz’s, et al.

But the United States isn’t great because of great companies- it’s exactly the other way around and the fact that you believe otherwise is the best indication of all of what really drives your views.

So you are saying that GM and Ford don't make good enough products that people want at a good enough price? Maybe so, but why? One word, perception. Anything can be good or bad in one's mind if they want it to be.
Yes…perception…that is always and always will be the truth and for any business to survive, it must deal with that truth or it will, and should, perish.

Making light of owning a Japanese car assembled in Japan with Japanese content. That's ok, I'm a fan of the Z myself. I don't own one, but it's a very nice looking car, IMO. In fact, one really could make an argument that nobody makes an affordable six cylinder two seater car other than the Z right now, making an American equivelant impossible.

But that comment shows where you are really coming from in your posts. Thanks for clearing that up. Are you really happy that Nissan's new home is going to be in Nashville, Rob?:)

Yes…I am as happy the headquarters will be here as will be the 1,300 or so people who are employed by them as will be the real-estate agents and property owners who are selling houses to those employees as are the grocery stores, dry cleaners, movie theatres, sports teams, restaurants and every other business and all the employees of those businesses here who will sell goods and services to those employees.

1990 Turbo Grand Prix

01-21-2006, 09:59 AM

Looking forward to your reaction to my previous post, Rob.

;)

Robert_Nashville

01-21-2006, 10:52 AM

Seeing how you are an analyst, Rob, tell me what you think of this by our own member, Fbodfather:

STATEMENT: “OH YEAH? WELL MY TOYOTA/HONDA/BMW/MERCEDES IS BUILT HERE IN THE UNITED STATES!”

82% parts in the average GM car or truck are domestic content
At Honda, it’s 49%
At Toyota, it’s 41%
Nissan? 38%
BMW? 11%

(by the way……go look at what the ‘transplants’ pay in taxes….real estate, school, state and federal……you might be surprised……if you’re a teacher and you’re complaining about budgets in you’re driving a Toyota or Honda, SHUT UP!)

GM/Ford/and DCX provide 23.4 jobs per 100 vehicles sold in the United States

The Japanese competitors? 13.3 jobs per 100 vehicles sold in the United States

GM’s capital investment in the United States from 1999 thru 2003 was $20Billion. Toyota’s capital investment from 1980 thru 2003 was $10.7Billion. Nissan’s? 2.8Billion from 1980 thru 2003…Honda? $5.6Billion – ’80 thru ’03.

GM’s contribution to the U.S. Gross National Product (GNP) is 4 times that of Toyota

Every Day, over 1 million North Americans earn their living by helping GM build and sell cars in North America. – Every month, 457,000 retirees and their spouses count on GM for pension checks. More than 1.1 Million people receive health care benefits from GM. A one-point drop in GM market share results in over 18,000 jobs in the United States.

To analyze something, one needs all the facts…they aren’t all presented here but here are my comments.

PARTS CONTENT: Why isn't the content of GM vehicles not 100%??? If GM is really "American", shouldn't it be 100%

TAXES: There are lot’s of different kinds of taxes…which taxes are referred to here? Since he mentioned schools I presume property/business taxes…if so, is he suggesting that a GM plant and a Toyota plant representing an identical tax base doesn’t each pay the same amount of taxes? I truly doubt that and would like to know for which community/school district his statement is true.

I suppose it could be true if an incentive packages is in the equation but such packages, when they exist, are for a fixed amount of time. Also, such a comparison would ignore the substantial increase to the tax base represented by the Toyota plant that wasn't there before.

JOBS per 100 VEHICLES SOLD: Are those figures a comparison of “US Jobs” per 100 vehicles sold in the US whether manufactured domestically or imported or only per 100 vehicles manufactured within the US? Are the “jobs” all jobs regardless of location or are they only “US based jobs?

If the figures are “US based” jobs and only “domestically” manufactured vehicles then the figures are nothing to be proud of - they would simply indicate that it takes GM 42% more workers to produce 100 vehicles that the foreign transplants; not a very good thing unless your job is within one of those 42 percentage points.

CAPITAL INVESTMENT: $20B in five years is impressive but not very informative. Nissan was just starting to build its first plant in the US in 1980…Honda and Toyota were not much further along. And all those figures are meaningless without knowing the relative size of each of those companies to each other.

Most of the figures cited above prove GM is an extremely large corporation and makes a significant contribution to our economy. But I haven’t said otherwise nor does any of that really have anything to do with the topic.

You seem to think I hate GM or Ford or Chrysler…I do not and never have. I simply reject the “buy American” slogan as meaningless dribble lacking any real substance today perpetrated on the public by unions, their members and supporters in order to protect their own existence without regard to what’s truly good for America.

Like most people, I’ll buy the car that best suites me at the moment and which I can afford…as I’ve said before; it’s called free enterprise.

Z28SS MAN

01-21-2006, 07:59 PM

Now…I’m going to go fix my dinner and then wash and wax my 350Z!

Obviously doesn't take much to satisfy some of us. lol

Robert_Nashville

01-21-2006, 08:36 PM

Obviously doesn't take much to satisfy some of us. lol

That really adds a lot to the discussion. :rolleyes:

90rocz

01-21-2006, 08:45 PM

GM is just doing what it must to survive in this so called "emerging Globalization", importing some things to offset the UNFAIR trade policies and tax system that heavily favor foreign companies and investing abroad.
Buying non-USA products just add fuel to the flame, we've forgotten what sacrifice means, it's now all about "me" and "right now"...

Todd80Z28

01-21-2006, 09:11 PM

Lew,

Where'd you get those numbers? I found this-

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m3165/is_n11_v29/ai_14792007

Note the date- 1993.

The sticker from my '02 Acura TL-S (built in Marysville, on the Accord line) says 70% domestic, %20 Japan, remaining "other."

brian spilner

01-22-2006, 02:55 PM

Now…I’m going to go fix my dinner and then wash and wax my 350Z!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v107/NONo443/internet%20pictures/motivator20xh.jpg

Robert_Nashville

01-22-2006, 04:11 PM

:D

Nice tag line but misleading...believe me, no one is going to buy a Z and a G35 for the same price unless the Infiniti dealer is an idiot or the G35 is stolen!

That aside, as much as I love the G35, it really does come back to buying the car that meets your purpose...if you want a true sports car and best performance, you buy the Z...if comfort and interior size/seating capacity are primary issues you buy they G35.

1990 Turbo Grand Prix

01-23-2006, 08:35 AM

Chrome383Z

01-23-2006, 09:03 AM

It's called Globalization. It sucks, but is good at the same time. I would love for GM and Ford to be the powerhouses of design and pioneering like they were 40 years ago. And the fact my family was GM employed enhances my respect and to some extent "blindness" to GM.

40 years ago the competition was between Ford, GM, Dodge. Imports were virtually a blip on the map at the time. Then they started showing up. Ford, GM, Dodge continued competing, but also started getting "lazy". They accepted their part in the market share, a new workforce generation entered, and for the most part - creativity/engineering slowed to a crawl...

Unions that were once needed became burdonsome and will not allow the US Automakers to work in an efficient manner. What once was a saving grace, has now become a major disadvantage.

Import manufacturers came into this country and the vehicles were CRAP. It took them many years to improve, but they had a goal in mind. GM and Ford. (Just as any upstart company will do - foreign or domestic). Big 3 still kept on with their lazyness giving fat paychecks to scabs and a terribly inefficient workforce. (procedures to some extent).

Then the time came when the Imports surpassed the Domestics in quality/design/engineering and the **** hit the fan. Its like they saw it coming, but never really thought it would get here. Now that it's here I must say we've seen more strides in GM in the last 5 years then we have in the last 20 years!!! And to say any different would be blatently ignoring the facts. (Look how long the 4L60 was around?). 10 year product cycles? (1/8 of most peoples Lives!).

Anyhow, I used to be on the bandwagon against foreign competition, but have now realized that although I support and always will GM - I will not blindly follow them.

Imports are increasing more and more jobs here everyday. Do all of the profits go here? Of coarse not as it's a foreign company. BUT, that John Doe in Nashville is happy, along with the other 10k workers that will be hired at the Nissan plant. Obviously alot happier then the ones getting laid off from GM.

GM is correcting mistakes now (and Ford as well) from mistakes made well before some of us were born. Let's hope that they can continue.

On a side note about the Tax benefits - Just today it was announced Michigan offered HUGE TAX BREAKS to not close the Michigan plants... Who's not offering Tax Breaks to Domestics???

And Imports do get Taxed crossing the border - I would like to know what that tax is though - anybody?

Hey Bob, what's up? ;)

Robert_Nashville

01-23-2006, 12:53 PM

:) The import taxes paid on vehicles is a complex business to say the least - companies such as Nissan, Toyota, etc have large tax departments/employees just to stay compliant. I couldn't begin to tell you the specifics and even if I wanted to try; it would put everybody to sleep!

Suffice it to say that the import/duty and other taxes paid to the various taxing authorities on an imported car is a significant part of the overall cost.

You are absolutely right...GM is doing some great things and I like a good bit of what I've seen from Ford and Chrysler as well.

As someone who has lived through the wonderful 60's and then the awful 70's/80's/early 90’s, any car enthusiast should be extremely thankful to whatever gods he believes in that he's alive today to see some of the cars available and what’s coming up.

I’m amazes at how we so accept, as no big deal, normally aspirated 300HP sixes and 500HP eights that meet air-quality standards and in cars that don’t require a six figure income to buy…could you even have imagined that 15 years ago???

90rocz

01-23-2006, 07:23 PM

Unions that were once needed became burdonsome and will not allow the US Automakers to work in an efficient manner. What once was a saving grace, has now become a major disadvantage. Wrong, media bias has brought this picture to you, truth is, they are needed NOW more than ever before.
Import manufacturers came into this country and the vehicles were CRAP. It took them many years to improve, but they had a goal in mind. GM and Ford. (Just as any upstart company will do - foreign or domestic). Big 3 still kept on with their lazyness giving fat paychecks to scabs and a terribly inefficient workforce. (procedures to some extent). Wrong again, import cars coming into this country had one major problem, salt water. They usually had to sit in/on ships for weeks to get here, and maybe months more in a Customs yard before hitting the showroom. They weren't rustproofed to cope with it and promptly rusted out. And used some substandard materials that didn't hold up to much "abuse", (ie; neglect.)
Secondly, lots of stereotyping in the rest of your comment, and UNinformed. Looking to save money, as Proud has said, materials were substituted, and processes skipped, companies REFUSED to retool, but look who got blamed.:rolleyes:
Up until last year, I used a 30+ YEAR OLD Squaring fixture.!...:eek: :no:
UAW worker are also, many times rewarded for their increased efficiency by added tasks with NO increase in pay.(make that usually:) )
And Import companies had NO Legacy costs, so they could invest more heavily into "state-of-the-art" tooling, pay people competetively, sell at a lower price, sometimes even at a loss.

Robert_Nashville

01-23-2006, 08:03 PM

Wrong, media bias has brought this picture to you, truth is, they are needed NOW more than ever before.
Wrong again, import cars coming into this country had one major problem, salt water. They usually had to sit in/on ships for weeks to get here, and maybe months more in a Customs yard before hitting the showroom. They weren't rustproofed to cope with it and promptly rusted out. And used some substandard materials that didn't hold up to much "abuse", (ie; neglect.)
Secondly, lots of stereotyping in the rest of your comment, and UNinformed. Looking to save money, as Proud has said, materials were substituted, and processes skipped, companies REFUSED to retool, but look who got blamed.:rolleyes:
Up until last year, I used a 30+ YEAR OLD Squaring fixture.!...:eek: :no:
UAW worker are also, many times rewarded for their increased efficiency by added tasks with NO increase in pay.(make that usually:) )
And Import companies had NO Legacy costs, so they could invest more heavily into "state-of-the-art" tooling, pay people competetively, sell at a lower price, sometimes even at a loss.

I do not blame the UAW for getting what they negotiated for...GM and the rest agreed to the wages and benefits which, in times past, they could afford.

What clearly rests at the feet of the UAW leadership, however, is being intransigent in the light of present day reality. Rather than offering reasonable accommodations, they insist on the status quo or more than the status quo - reality be dammed. Rather than helping the domestics meet the competition, they ask for protection from competition.

We see the results of that attitude today in Ford’s announcements…instead of scaling down in an orderly fashion to a size that makes sense in the wake of shrinking sales, we instead have massive lay-offs and plant closings.

As to the “legacy costs” argument; it has some merit but ignores the basic truth that such is ALWAYS the way of things. Every large/older company faces the same issue…a newer/upstart business always has such advantages along with being able to change direction/meet market needs more quickly and utilize technology more quickly…that is why Bill Gates has often said that Microsoft could be put out of business in a moment by some kid in a garage who comes up with the next great innovation in computer software. Such challenges have to be planned for and faced, not simply pointed to as an excuse.

And I wouldn’t yell to much about salt water and rust problems among imports…if memory serves, all the domestics were so bad at one point I seem to recall congressional investigations into the problem.

What really chaps the ass of the UAW (and what they will NEVER admit of course) is that the transplants came into this country and beat them at their own game…not a single transplant has done anything that GM or Ford or Chrysler could not do except that the UAW would never stand for it.

HAZ-Matt

01-23-2006, 09:21 PM

Get with the times. The US is old and busted. That is why I have applied for Chinese citizenship.

90rocz

01-23-2006, 09:26 PM

Robert_Nashville

01-23-2006, 10:01 PM

Demming tried to sell is philosophy here, Corporate America didn't want it...it had little to do with the UAW. That has all changed, I was ISO9000 certified by a firm from Dublin, Ireland, and we are ontrack with the competition.
Not surprised with your comment, outsiders get slammed with all sorts of propaganda regarding the UAW.
We/they have made numerous concessions to deal with the "present day reailty", my insurance Co-Pay is $65, the HIGHEST in or around my area, that includes Honda of America btw...good for me my doctor only charges $59/visit.:)
Let's see: Seniority is all but void, insurance is now a joke, 2/3 of jobs GONE, sub assemblies now Outsourced to the lowest bidder, many materials imported non-brand name, absentee policy makes Import factories seem like country clubs, efficiency is rewarded with increased labor output goals...
While faceless names make 1,000 times the average worker's income but hide it through mediocre salaries with "mega-perks", are insulated from the economy, and always blame and cut cost from those least able to bear it.

Two thoughts; one worth repeating from above...

FIRST: There is absolutely nothing the imports have done in this country with their plants, with their designs or with their workers that the domestic nameplates could not have done...while it is always dangerous to oversimplify, the ONE most significant difference between a plant operated by GM and one operated by Toyota is the absence of the UAW in latter. As long as the UAW hangs around the neck of GM and Ford they will never be truly competative with the imports.

SECOND: If the UAW is so beneficial, why have thay failed so miserably at organizing ANY transplant? The answer is simple, whenever they are allowed to hear all sides and view all the facts, technicians at the transplants turn down the UAW 3 to 1.

Derek M

01-24-2006, 04:22 PM

:) The import taxes paid on vehicles is a complex business to say the least - companies such as Nissan, Toyota, etc have large tax departments/employees just to stay compliant. I couldn't begin to tell you the specifics and even if I wanted to try; it would put everybody to sleep!

Suffice it to say that the import/duty and other taxes paid to the various taxing authorities on an imported car is a significant part of the overall cost.

That's a part of the issue. Most of the work effort and materials that go into a imported vehicle happen in the far east, Asia, materials, assembles, etc. This work abroad doesn't help or aid the US economy and Americans in general. Having the majority of work done abroad then bringing the assemblies here for final assembly is a way around the import/duty taxes of bringing in a fully assembled vehicle.

Regardless, UAW, good decisions, bad decisions, good management, stupid management, etc the 60k people and near 30 facilities that Ford and GM elvis'ing are all on US soil. This downsizing will have an impact to others in the US as well like suppliers and companies that provide Ford and GM services. Entire towns and cities will incur impact. At the end of the day these are all American's, and that's the travesty that seems be over looked.

90rocz

01-24-2006, 08:11 PM

Toyota workers put

Courage
on the line

GEORGETOWN, Ky. – “I’m looking at my future is what I’m looking at,” says Karen Toler, a test driver at Toyota’s massive 7.2 million-square-foot factory complex nearby.

“Right now I’m relatively young still at 42. I’m still hirable. But what’s going to happen when I’m 61, and they say, ‘We’re not going to pay for your health insurance anymore’?”

Toler, one of the first Americans to work at a Japanese-owned auto plant in the United States, has worked at Toyota 18 years.

“I started before the first car rolled off the line,” she recalls. “We were building break rooms, doing training, that kind of thing.”

The plant Toler helped get off the ground – Toyota Motor Manufacturing of Kentucky (TMMK) – has been a stunning success. The Japanese carmaker is the world’s seventh-largest corporation, with worldwide revenues of $172 billion and profits of $10.8 billion in 2004.

Kentucky workers have helped boost Toyota’s profits by giving the company a strong foothold in the highly lucrative U.S. vehicle market, turning out more than 6 million vehicles since the facility opened in 1986.

The Camry sedan, TMMK’s signature product, has been the best-selling car in America for the past three years and is the leading seller so far in 2005. In 2006 Georgetown will begin production of a hybrid version of the Camry.

With wages of $25 an hour, a company-paid health plan, a 401(k) package and the steady work that goes with making a top-selling product, why is anyone at TMMK interested in a union?

‘To go in there every day wearing a UAW shirt – that takes real courage.’

~ Region 3 Director Terry Thurman

Because nothing is guaranteed, says Toler. “Will it be there tomorrow? That’s the big question. Toyota has cut back and changed and eliminated an awful lot. If they continue on their downward trend with their benefits and the bonuses, where are we going to be?”

The problem at Toyota isn’t just pay and benefits, says Toler. It’s the daily indignity of working in a factory where managers set the line speed at a breakneck pace – and have no patience for the basic human needs of the people who have to keep it running.

“It’s hard to get off the line for a bathroom break,” said Toler. “They give you a dirty look, or they might give you a smart remark about holding it until break.” But there aren’t enough women’s bathrooms available during break time, she says.

“A union would really improve things,” she says. “You would have a vote in what your package is. You would have a chance to elect a bargaining committee, and then you would vote yes or no, and whatever you agree to is written into that contract.

“A union is going to give us accountability. Right now, Toyota can do whatever they want,” she adds.

Despite a successful relationship with the UAW at the New United Motor Mfg. Inc. (NUMMI) plant in Fremont, Calif., which Toyota jointly owns with General Motors (see Page 19), the Japanese auto giant has taken a tough anti-union stance in Kentucky.

Well over 2,000 of Toler’s co-workers have expressed an interest in forming their own organization for the purpose of collective bargaining – not a majority yet, but an impressive showing at a company that makes an aggressive effort to prevent workers from exercising their rights.

Toyota is two-faced, says L.T. Davis, a 15-year TMMK veteran who is also a UAW supporter. “It’s a public façade. They say, ‘We’re not anti-union; it will be the employee’s choice.’ ”

But inside the plant, says Davis, it’s a different story. “We were paid overtime and required to attend an anti-UAW, anti-union propaganda meeting,” says Davis. “It lasted about an hour.”

Managers also deliver an anti-union message during the last five minutes of break time – time which is set aside by TMMK for safety briefings.

According to the National Labor Relations Board (NLRB), Toyota has stepped over the line on several occasions with illegal harassment of UAW supporters.

In one case, the NLRB found that the company had illegally disciplined workers who were discussing workplace issues; in another, the UAW won back pay for a worker who was illegally terminated – after it was discovered that the notation “openly supports UAW” had been marked in his personnel file.

Toyota’s tough stance is in contrast to its image as a model employer, which the company works hard to promote. Toyota officials tout, for example, the good pay and benefits at their Kentucky plant, but they don’t say much about their widespread use of temporary workers, who can earn as little as $8.50 an hour, with no insurance or other benefits.

Toyota has stretched the definition of “temporary” beyond all recognition, treating lower-wage workers as second-class citizens for five years or more.

The company won’t release statistics on its use of temps, but TMMK workers estimate there are more than 1,000 temporary workers, out of a total workforce of about 5,500 production and maintenance workers.

“I’ve become friends with a lot of the temporary guys,” says John Hall, who has worked at TMMK 14 years. One employee, he recalls, finally got a chance to apply for a permanent job after five years as a temp. “But when he went to take his physical, they told him he had carpal tunnel and they couldn’t hire him. They used him for five years and kicked him to the curb.”

Carpal tunnel syndrome, caused by repetitive motion, is a common occurrence at Toyota. Part of the problem, says Hall, is workers are discouraged from reporting injuries.

“Many times they’ll blame you if you get hurt. They’ll say you had not stretched enough, or you were not performing the job in the correct postures,” says Hall.

“That’s one of the biggest faults of Toyota. The job is not built around the worker; the worker must adjust to the job, whether it’s safe or not.”

The new TMMK Worker Resource Center, opened by the UAW in May, is giving volunteer organizers such as Hall, Davis and Toler new opportunities to communicate with their co-workers.

Although there is a solid base of support, pro-union workers realize they still have plenty of work to do.

“We’ve got a lot of cards signed,” says Gene Toler, Karen’s husband and a 10-year veteran of the assembly line at TMMK. “But we’re not where we need to be.”

Although labor law allows workers to file for a union representation election with support of as little as 30 percent of workers in a bargaining unit, Gene Toler is convinced TMMK workers need to be much stronger before taking that step – because he knows Toyota will run a harsh “vote no” campaign.

“I want to win,” he says. “I’ve not been doing this for eight years just so we can have an election and lose.”

“To stand up for your rights inside that plant, to go in there every day wearing a UAW shirt – that takes real courage,” says Terry Thurman, director of UAW Region 3, which includes Kentucky and Indiana. “I really admire these workers for what they’re doing at Toyota, and the UAW is going to do all we can to support these workers.

“Our whole union, really, owes them a debt of thanks. If we’re going to keep the auto industry in this country as a strong union industry, these are the workers who are going to have to make it happen. They’re showing the same kind of courage it took to start our union in the first place – and I think one day we’re going to have the same result: a good union contract, a voice on the job and democracy in the workplace.”

- by Roger Kerson

(from Solidarity Magazine Nov/Dec.2005)

Robert_Nashville

01-24-2006, 08:30 PM

That's a part of the issue. Most of the work effort and materials that go into a imported vehicle happen in the far east, Asia, materials, assembles, etc. This work abroad doesn't help or aid the US economy and Americans in general. Having the majority of work done abroad then bringing the assemblies here for final assembly is a way around the import/duty taxes of bringing in a fully assembled vehicle.

Regardless, UAW, good decisions, bad decisions, good management, stupid management, etc the 60k people and near 30 facilities that Ford and GM elvis'ing are all on US soil. This downsizing will have an impact to others in the US as well like suppliers and companies that provide Ford and GM services. Entire towns and cities will incur impact. At the end of the day these are all American's, and that's the travesty that seems be over looked.

I’m not sure how you arrived at that conclusion but the transplant manufacturing plants make the vehicles here as much as GM or Ford does…often using the exact same vendors for their raw materials as well as finished parts…they don’t bring over sections of finished product/almost assembled cars and simply fit it together as you seem to be implying.

And I don’t think anyone is overlooking the impact from Ford’s or GM’s actions or underestimates the personal tragedy when people loose jobs.

Robert_Nashville

01-24-2006, 08:45 PM

Derek M

01-24-2006, 10:10 PM

I’m not sure how you arrived at that conclusion but the transplant manufacturing plants make the vehicles here as much as GM or Ford does…often using the exact same vendors for their raw materials as well as finished parts…they don’t bring over sections of finished product/almost assembled cars and simply fit it together as you seem to be implying.

And I don’t think anyone is overlooking the impact from Ford’s or GM’s actions or underestimates the personal tragedy when people loose jobs.

Posted earlier in this thread average domestic content:

82% parts in the average GM car or truck are domestic content
At Honda, it’s 49%
At Toyota, it’s 41%
Nissan? 38%
BMW? 11%

These numbers state that a far greater percentage of import manufactured vehicles have content materials, components, and assemblies that are sourced outside of the North American shore line.

The assembly line workers certainly aren't taking raw material and conforming components and assemblies while on the assembly line. On an assembly line, parts, components, and assembles are faceted to assemble the entire vehicle. In the import manufactures case, much larger percentages of the parts that comprise a vehicle come from sources other than North America.

Just because final assembly is done here certainly is no indicator of actual domestic content. The numbers above show the true value that these companies are investing locally versus abroad. This is all part of the import marketing smoke screen.

AlfredB18

01-25-2006, 12:10 AM

Posted earlier in this thread average domestic content:

82% parts in the average GM car or truck are domestic content
At Honda, it’s 49%
At Toyota, it’s 41%
Nissan? 38%
BMW? 11%

These numbers state that a far greater percentage of import manufactured vehicles have content materials, components, and assemblies that are sourced outside of the North American shore line.

The assembly line workers certainly aren't taking raw material and conforming components and assemblies while on the assembly line. On an assembly line, parts, components, and assembles are faceted to assemble the entire vehicle. In the import manufactures case, much larger percentages of the parts that comprise a vehicle come from sources other than North America.

Just because final assembly is done here certainly is no indicator of actual domestic content. The numbers above show the true value that these companies are investing locally versus abroad. This is all part of the import marketing smoke screen.

Fair point, but way back when, all those numbers below GM's were "0" as in "ZERO". The trend is rising upwards, in my opinion. The Titan and Tundra weren't designed in Japan, I can tell you that much. I have seen a new Tundra window tag when looking around at the mall....it's at least $60% made in USA to my recollection, so while some Toyotas are dragging the numbers down (Lexus are all made in Japan, correct?), some are playing ball here, for the most part. More to come. Live with it. If you don't like it, don't buy it.

Let's be proud that GM makes the 3.4L v6 in China now. Also, GM and Ford believe that Asia is a profit cow, for some reason. If that's the case, Toyota, HyundaiKia and the like wouldn't be here. I doubt when Toyota has the San Antonio plant really up and going, all their materials will be coming from Japan. That %age will be closer to zero than 100%.

Does this mean I will go out and buy a Tacoma or HD Tundra? Nah, sure don't. But in the "dog eat dog" world we live in, people have to pay the bills somehow. Don't think your average Nissan worker in Canton, MS ain't thankful at least someone brought work to MS. There a plenty of American (among other nationalities) stockholders in any of the aforementioned companies that hope things go well. Why not wish them the same?

So, I suppose we've gone through 50 posts trying to wish reality away. Or something like that. Honda Motors of North America is based in NYC....yahoo business lists 'em. Call 'em and say "Hi, build a real truck!" sometime. They're your neighbors, in a broad sense.

Buy what works for you, that's all. Of course, this could be Russia, where you find real top notch Ladas to toot around in. (Sarcasm)

And you all see what I own. Ford thanks us by trying to kill the Ranger plant and you know where the GM F-bods went.

Of course, part of these threads always turns into "Well, if (this brand) didn't come to the USA, GM and Ford would be healthy." Not so, reap what is sown. I, for one, would not want to see good old Western civilization complacency root itself too deep in the US automakers, but it has anyway. GM waiting until 09 to do what Ford did for 05 (Mustang), waiting until 07 to get a crossover (Buick Centienne), both of them pinning their survival on gasser SUVs and trucks, but what about a diesel engine or a better hybrid in them? Playing catch up is doozie....the worm turned and the gears are really slooooow to turn. We have another gas price spike, like the 70s, but the Last 2 let history repeat itself again. I do not feel pity enough (okay, none at all) to reward them for that display of sloth.

The Euros are losing their auto industry, especially England, VW makes stuff on every inhabited continent, Jag-u-ar, Aston, Volvo, and Saab are all US owned...but it's us that has a problem with someone bringing their base over here. Interesting.

bossco

01-25-2006, 01:13 AM

Did somebody say Lada!

http://lada.toimii.net/leffa/ladaraider.mpg

Yeah, 5th gen fans fear this!

Robert_Nashville

01-25-2006, 08:52 AM

Jason E

01-25-2006, 10:53 AM

Robert_Nashville

01-25-2006, 02:51 PM

Lew,

Good luck, I'm with you. I've made the same argument on here a hundred times, and gnashed teeth with Robert a couple times before. It makes no difference what you say to him...he believes what he wants.

I'd add my own .02, but Lew already did it.
It goes without saying, of course, that the “buy American” pundits are always open-minded and base all their arguments and opinions on facts (and never engage in attacking a poster personally who's views they don't agree with) and of course, the facts they base their opinions on come from sources not tied to the domestic nameplates and/or the UAW!

Chris 96 WS6

01-25-2006, 03:16 PM

Lets get back to the original point.

I still say when you add up salaries/commissions of dealer staff (sales persons, administrative, service personnel), salaries of corporate office staff, wages of labor at the plants, income to the construction firms that built the plant and the office buildings and the dealer lots, the money made by the trucking companies that transport the cars to the dealers from the factories, the salaries at the US design centers, the money pumped into US media for advertising, the money paid to US advertising firms, the money that goes to all the suppliers of US parts including frame plants like Dana, brake part companies, tire manufacturers, glass plant companies and workers...and all the various support industries including the lunch counter across the street from the plant, the income and property taxes paid into US/state/local governments by employees of all the above, that the combined aggregate POSITIVE effect of purchasing an "import" nameplate car built in the US is orders of magnitude greater than whatever piddly "profits" quote-unquote "go back to Japan."

I prefer American cars and if given the choice (meaning good products from domestics) I'll buy Domestic nameplates, but I will not fault somebody for buying an American built Import model out of some red herring fantasy-land "but the profits go back to Japan" argument which ignores the massive aggregated and compounding positive effects of buying a car built here by a company that happens to be headquartered in another country.

I would agree with the statement that buying US built imports is "less good" for the US economy than buying a domestic car, but I think it is false to say it is "bad" for the economy.

When a car costs $20,000 and $1,000 of it goes overseas and the other $19,000 stays here and is curculated in the economy, I hardly see that as bad.

Put another way, I'd rather the imports put their plants here vs. them moving them all back to Japan. We're keeping a much higher % of the revenues of a car sale here than we were when imports were truly "imported".

And lets not pretend that if imports were banned that the domestics would somehow miraculously get healthy again. Competition improves the breed.

1990 Turbo Grand Prix

01-25-2006, 03:51 PM

I would agree with the statement that buying US built imports is "less good" for the US economy than buying a domestic car, but I think it is false to say it is "bad" for the economy.
And while I agree with this statement, I still find it really hard to say that it's good for the US economy at the same time when GM alone figures that each point of market shared lost costs more than 18,000 American jobs.

It's a catch 22.

:shrug:

Jason E

01-25-2006, 03:56 PM

Keep preaching...the sad thing is, the choir won't listen...

Chris 96 WS6

01-25-2006, 04:18 PM

And while I agree with this statement, I still find it really hard to say that it's good for the US economy at the same time when GM alone figures that each point of market shared lost costs more than 18,000 American jobs.

It's a catch 22.

:shrug:

Does it cost GM 18,000 American jobs or does it actually cost 18,000 net jobs? If every point of market share gained by the imports has an opposite effect, then the net is much much less than 18,000.

I'm a gm-nutswinger as much as the next guy but I know enough about politics to know that their PR machine is going to exaggerate and make the worst-case look like the norm.

Lets also not pretend that Domestics don't have any foreign content in them in terms of supplier-built parts and raw materials.

90rocz

01-25-2006, 05:09 PM

While I'm sure "Solidarity Magazine" is an unbiased publication with no agenda behind the quotes printed; all the quotes in the world wont change the simple fact that every time the UAW has tried to organize a transplant facility; they lost - and not by a slim margin.

You might find this article from the Detroit Free Press of interest...Yeah, :rolleyes: I don't know why anyone wouldn't eagerly accept a 60% pay/benefit cut....
If you missed the points in the article I provided, there's not much more I can do for you. You may be insulated from any such actions as Delphi CEO, used on their worker..:shrug: You obviously seem to choose to be oblivious to what you disagree with, and use the "Truth Relativity Theory", that states; the truth is relative to where I am standing...But in reality there's only one truth, and it's neither yours nor mine.
I tend to trust the people that work for the Companies in question over the Corporate Propaganda Machines of mainstream Media(ie; DFP). I know who owns them...
Also, my cousin works for Honda of America, East Liberty, Ohio; they routinely threaten employees who show interest in organizing a Democratic workforce. Some threats have even been addressed by the NLRB.
Using "empty" threats like," If you accept the UAW, we will make you pay 100% of you Health Care Insurance"...BLATANT Lies, all current agreements would be "frozen" until a contract is negociated.
And they use company time regularly to employ their propaganda machine against the UAW, they even brought high priced Lawyers in, to advise them on how to "bust" any organizing attempts. And employees who knew the truth, who attended UAW meetings and were prepared, and asked intelligent questions, were "black-balled" from company meetings.
I understand GM has a percentage of import parts in them, as well as Toyota has domestic parts in them, some made here locally for BOTH. And it's becoming hard to "Buy American", but not buying domestic will certainly lose MORE jobs here, than a transplant.
No, this burden does not rest solely on the consumer, product quality must improve, mainly material quality, which will fit better, and more easily, look great and last...which will draw more consumers.
I'm just saying, the WHOLE facts are NOT getting reported as to why Unions are gettting rejected in transplants, that's all...I'm done.

1990 Turbo Grand Prix

01-25-2006, 05:24 PM

Does it cost GM 18,000 American jobs or does it actually cost 18,000 net jobs?
It's American jobs.

Lets also not pretend that Domestics don't have any foreign content in them in terms of supplier-built parts and raw materials.
No arguement here, but lets not forget the facts provided:

82% parts in the average GM car or truck are domestic content
At Honda, it’s 49%
At Toyota, it’s 41%
Nissan 38%
BMW 11%

Robert_Nashville

01-25-2006, 06:17 PM

It's American jobs.

No arguement here, but lets not forget the facts provided:

82% parts in the average GM car or truck are domestic content
At Honda, it’s 49%
At Toyota, it’s 41%
Nissan 38%
BMW 11%

Let's not forget the facts provided?

Why then do those "facts" keep getting presented while those who keep repeating them conveniently ignore a couple of basic questions?

Part content figures mean nothing without knowing where they came from and what was included in the calculation; unless of course you simply like what they say and, therefore, don't want the answer to those questions. :)

And if part content is the end all and be all of the argument, why, if GM is so "American", is its part content not 100%?

As to the “18,000 jobs”…what about the "18,000 thousand jobs"...it's a meaningless figure by itself. How many of those 18,000 jobs shouldn't have existed in the first place because they weren't really needed anymore but union contracts wouldn't allow them to be cut? How many of those 18,000 workers took jobs with Toyota or Nissan or Honda? How many of them went back to school and/or started a new career?

Derek M

01-25-2006, 07:57 PM

Robert_Nashville

01-25-2006, 09:49 PM

Let's not forget the facts provided?
Why then do those "facts" keep getting presented while those who keep repeating them conveniently ignore a couple of basic questions?

Part content figures mean nothing without knowing where they came from and what was included in the calculation; unless of course you simply like what they say and, therefore, don't want the answer to those questions. :)

And if part content is the end all and be all of the argument, why, if GM is so "American", is its part content not 100%?

It's pretty apparent you can attempt to discredit anything. Yet bring little to the table. Where are your numbers?

The numbers posted for content in this thread I believe originally were posted by Scott Settlemire. If you want to discredit Scott go ahead. The man has been nothing but truthful and honest to this group of enthusiasts. Therefore until proven otherwise I will believe Scott. If you choose not to fine.
Not surprisingly; you miss the point of my comments entirely and mistake very reasonable questions for a personal attack on Scott.

Yes…I know Scott is, at least purported to be, the original poster of these numbers. I’ve met Scott on at least four occasions (F-Body Gathering and Bowling Green) and was proud to have him sign my Z28 – I have nothing but respect for him and what he means to those who love Firebirds and Camaros – all of which has nothing to do with my questions as to how those numbers were calculated and what was included.

To make sure you don’t miss it this time here is an illustration of why I ask ….if Honda sells ten models in the US; five of which are manufactured in the US and five are manufactured offshore and transported here; would it not be reasonable to suspect that the North American part content of the five models assembled here might just be a little higher than the North American part content of any of the five models produced offshore? And if that is the case, don’t you think it might make just a little difference in the numbers and might be worth knowing whether all ten models or just the five domestically assembled were included when quoting part content for a nameplate? If the domestic part content for Honda, in my example, is 60% when looking at just the five assembled here or 40% when all ten models are included don't you thknk it might be a good idea to know that?

I’m not saying the numbers are wrong…I am asking what’s in them.

I’m also not suggesting that the transplants are as high in domestic content as GM but I do ask once again, why is the part content % the end all and be all of the discussion and if it is, why is GM not being chastised for being only 82%???

As to the “18,000 jobs”…what about the "18,000 thousand jobs"...it's a meaningless figure by itself. How many of those 18,000 jobs shouldn't have existed in the first place because they weren't really needed anymore but union contracts wouldn't allow them to be cut? How many of those 18,000 workers took jobs with Toyota or Nissan or Honda? How many of them went back to school and/or started a new career?
You can attempt to dissect and tear anything apart without any regard for who these people are. These people have faces, names, and families, they are our brothers, sisters, friends, and neighbors, which in the end they are ALL Americans. No matter which way you slice it 18,000 jobs lost will have an affect on themselves directly and their families. GM and Ford announcing the loss of 60K jobs over the past 3 months isn't a good thing for the country in which we reside.

Find one post of mine where I said or even hinted that I don’t care about the people affected…you’ll find quite the opposite if you get past your bias.

You are very correct, GM or Ford ending jobs and closing plants is not a good thing for our country or the industry but what is your answer then? Should GM and Ford continue to employee people in jobs they don’t need to build cars they can’t sell?

Maybe we need a Federal mandate that every citize must buy a new car at least once every four years and that new car must be a GM or Ford product...perhaps they should step in and close down every transplant manufacturing plant (and all their suppliers and everyone else who benefits from those jobs directly and indirectly) so that GM and Ford don’t have to compete…we’ll wind up with about the same number out of work...would you care as much about those affected then or woudl you not care since they aren’t former GM or Ford employees???

How many of those 18,000 workers took jobs with Toyota or Nissan or Honda? It certainly wasn’t 18,000 I can tell you that.
And you can tell me that based on what exactly?

It makes me sick to know in the country of which you reside provides you this freedom to come into this message board and yet be so blatantly unsupportive and show such a serious disrespect and non-caring attitude for your fellow Americans and their well being.
You are right of course, I’m unsupportive and disrespectful because I believe companies and their employees should compete in the marketplace and earn their position…believing in free enterprise rather than protectionism and scapegoating is very un-American and unpatriotic of me.

If it wasn't for the industrial might of this country of which Ford and GM employees during WWII contributed heavily. We might well be speaking Japanese or German right now. How much did Toyota, Nissan, and Honda help with the American war effort???? Ohhhhhhh that's right.....
I think it’s now obvious what is really behind your opinions - I can easily forgive such a view from those who landed on Normandy beach or at Guadalcanal or the Coral Sea…getting shot at tends to give one significant clarity and a firm opinion. I doubt you were there, however which makes a statement like that just old fashioned bigotry.

Chrome383Z

01-26-2006, 07:47 AM

Protectionalism FAILED in the USSR. We shouldn't allow it to happen here...

poSSum

01-26-2006, 08:45 AM

So back to the original question ...

As a Canadian ....

Should I be buying an "Assembled in Canada" Toyota Matrix or an "Assembled in the U.S.A" Pontiac Vibe for my wife?

Robert_Nashville

01-26-2006, 08:53 AM

So back to the original question ...

As a Canadian ....

Should I be buying an "Assembled in Canada" Toyota Matrix or an "Assembled in the U.S.A" Pontiac Vibe for my wife?

If you want to stay married; I'd suggest you buy whatever she wants, at least, whatever she wants that you can afford)!

poSSum

01-26-2006, 09:26 AM

If you want to stay married; I'd suggest you buy whatever she wants, at least, whatever she wants that you can afford)!

Problem is GM doesn't build NEW 1988 GMC S Jimmy 2 doors anymore. :( I need to find the next best "fit".

ProudPony

01-26-2006, 09:47 AM

I have stayed out of this for days now, but I can't take it any more. I am leaving for China in a few weeks to go start up a new plant there - will be there 5 weeks. I'm NOT thrilled about it either. But this project makes me VERY astute to these issues right now. That said...

I will not argue pro or con about the "buy American" statement, but instead I want to address this concept of "globalism" that many of you are using so gallantly.

It's great. It's wonderful. It's what's "in". It makes companies more profitable. It brings better returns to investors. Yadda yadda yadda.

Let's look at another side of this "globalization". It means we open ourselves to other markets and the benefits therein - that's what investors and business-running executives see - it's business. Well there is also the personal side... the people, the lifestyles, the costs of living, environment, etc. This is what scares me most, because people justify the sh1+ out of the business case, and NEVER consider the personal case.

King Bush just signed a trade agreement with China last fall. It opens the door for "free trade" with expanding Chinese markets - like that's a good thing for us here in the States. Fact is, nobody in China can afford anything made in the USA. They are broke... poor beyond belief to the average US citizen. At $.29/hour, just how many $40k cars or $90 shoes do you think they can afford to buy? There is no way in hell they can afford our goods, and even if they could, they'd buy the same goods made (er, copied) there in China for less. On the other hand, we Americans piss away $2 on a pair of cheap pliers, use them twice, lose them, and go buy another pair without a thought. We throw away shoes that are nowhere near worn out. We throw out TVs and VCRs just because we got a newer or bigger one. As a nation, we have money to burn - we are wealthy. We can opt to buy "anything from anybody at any time" according to one poster in this thread, without concern about who made it or where it came from too. THAT is an option you have by the Grace of God and luck of your birthplace. It is NOT an option for a consumer in China, Mexico, Malaysia, Indonesia, Gana, Liberia, or Afghanistan.
So opening free trade benefits us here in the States how?!?!

You are correct - you have the right to spend your money on whatever you wish, whenever you wish. I can't take that away. But you should be concerned about the total effects of your spending, and you should excersize moral and responsible practices with your budget - and that often means thinking about someone other than yourself.
Think about what would have happened to you if your parents took that first concept above to the extreme during your childhood... You needed shoes for school, but mom and dad wanted to buy a new set of plates to go on the hutch. You needed school supplies, but they wanted to go to the movies instead. You needed braces and orthodontia, but Dad wanted to spend a week in Maui instead. After all, mom and dad earned the money, it was theirs to do with as they pleased, and they deserved nice things for working so hard - in short, they have great excuses to do what they want to. But they didn't... they thought about YOUR future, your health, your education, and your well-being, and they adjusted their budget, made sacrifices, and spent their money appropriately to support your development (hopefully ;) ). You see my point, I'm sure.

Well, to be VERY blunt, every argument I hear about buying an import seems to have a common element that goes something like "I have the right...", "I can do..." "I don't need to...", "I got better value..." and so on - right here in this thread you can see it plainly.
Likewise, there seems to be a trend in the domestic support camp of throwing out common elements like "People's jobs are lost...", "people's health care", "people's retirements..." and so on. - right here in this thread you can see it plainly.

So to me, it boils down to who is really putting thought and responsible, consciencious effort into how they spend their money. There are those who see the big picture, try to look into the future, and want to help the economy of this nation (not this hemisphere, not this continent, and not the world, but this nation) to sustain itself if not grow. Then there are those who know how much money is in their pocket, what they can afford, and how bad they want it. They don't think or care about what goes on behind the sale, they just want what they want - period. Sometimes, after they purchase, they feel the need to defend their purchase, especially when presented with data they didn't consider. At that point, human nature comes out, because none of us really likes to admit we were wrong about anything - it's the way we all are.

Myself, I am the consciencious guy. I go out of my way to buy AMERICAN. I just ordered 2 leaf springs for my King Cobra resto from an outfit in Harrisburg, PA - AFTER calling them and confirming that they make the parts on-site, and from US steel. They cost me $102.40 each, and I could have gotten "springs" on the web for as little as $64/each... made in B*mf*ck. I have not been to WalMart in 4 weeks - I am intentionally trying to go buy from local merchants and independents since I saw the expose on WalMart last summer. I just spent $40 on a set of Craftsman wrenches, and established they were forged in a plant in Gastonia, NC before doing so (as opposed to buying a $10 set of China tools at the flea market). I ordered a set of Wagner wheel cylinders (for same Cobra) at $9.95/ea plus $5 S&H, waited 2 weeks to get them, then turned around and returned them because the castings and rubber boots both had "Taiwan" cast into them... my original Wagoner-Lockheed cylinders and boots had "Made in the USA" clearly visible, and I want my resto to be as good as possible. I bead-blasted the cylinders, coated them, honed them, and installed new internals from a rebuild kit for $2.49 .

I have hundreds of stories like this. I make my life a little harder, but I am trying to make my neighbor's and friend's lives a little better in the act. It is trying at times, but I am committed to taking a moral high road and supporting my LOCAL economy.

Lastly, going back to the personal side of globalization...
Globalization is geared to making low-cost markets open to manufacturers, but it also makes the lifestyle of those involved change radically. We have long been a wealthy nation because of our manufacturing might - plain and simple fact. As we lose that manufacturing might, we will also lose our national wealth, and our cost of living - also fact. I personally do NOT want to see the typical US citizen have a cost of living and lifestyle that is on-par with the typical Chinese citizen. I have been there, seen it, lived it, and it is NOT pretty.
Likewise, if you do not want to see your lifestyle and cost of living become standardized to the rest of the world, you better wake up and start acting accordingly, because if you embrace globalization based on economics alone, that is exactly what you will get in the end - fact.

As someone said earlier in this thread - WE (the US citizen) made ourselves "great" by working hard and following the laws of this Nation. We did it through agriculture, indusrty, and technology. We also did it ON OUR OWN. We didn't sneak our technology from Japan (the way they did our electronics). We did not sneak our manufaturing from Taiwan or China (the way they are doing from us).
The down side is - we can ruin it on our own too. When we forget what made us strong, and act like it doesn't matter, we are only fooling ourselves, and the time will come when we regret neglecting those points.

Take it FWIW.

96_Camaro_B4C

01-26-2006, 09:53 AM

Damn. That was an awesome post, Proud. Thanks for sharing your thoughts and experiences.

I think I may show it to a few people, if you are cool with it.

:usa:

2MCHPSI

01-26-2006, 12:04 PM

Didn't GM post a 112 million dollar profit in China, yet can't produce a profit here?? I guess their .40 cents an hour can afford cars ....

ProudPony

01-26-2006, 01:04 PM

Damn. That was an awesome post, Proud. Thanks for sharing your thoughts and experiences.

I think I may show it to a few people, if you are cool with it.

:usa:
Go, dude. :thumb:

ProudPony

01-26-2006, 01:25 PM

Didn't GM post a 112 million dollar profit in China, yet can't produce a profit here?? I guess their .40 cents an hour can afford cars ....
If you knew how many people in industrialized parts of China were actually nationals from Europe, USA, Australia, and the like - you'd drop your jaw. My company has several hundred people in China right now developing plants and business. We have 3 local North Carolinians from my office that live in Shanghai on 1 to 3 year contracts. WalMart has a huge staff over there developing business relations and export channels. These people need tools to work with. That is a considerable portion of what commercial purchases are taking place.

Also, there are certainly some native people in China who have a few dollars and are spending them. And their economy is growing at alarming rates - people are making more money over there than ever before. But $.29 is much more than $.02, right? And for a nation of over 1-billion people, a whopping 650,000 GM cars were sold there. Doesn't sound like a mass-slaughter to me. Also, when you can pay people $.29/hr with NO BENEFITS to build your cars locally, it is not too hard to establish some profit in it.

These are exactly the reasons my company is building their 2nd plant on mainland China right now, and have plans for a third to start up in 2008.

I never said they didn't buy anything, but the average citizen there does not have anything close to the disposeable income we do here in the USA.
And don't pass over the fact that for every job they gain over there, there is one being lost somewhere else.

96_Camaro_B4C

01-26-2006, 01:34 PM

Go, dude. :thumb::) I copied into a Word document so I could hang onto it.

By the way, it just occurred to me, after reading your post again, that I didn't see your take on a foreign-owned product that is built here. Or did I miss it?

What you said about supporting the local economy certainly makes sense, but it can get a little blurry even when trying to be conscientious about it. If I want a motorcycle, must I buy a Harley or Buell? Or is a made in Marysville Gold Wing ok? What about a Civic? Now that they are here, I think the local economy of Marysville, OH is helped quite a bit by the success of the plants there.

Similarly, using your example of the part you returned because it was made in Taiwan. Was it an American company that had it built in Taiwan? If so, did they build the plant overseas because they just couldn't compete building it here, because not enough people would pay the higher price required (which goes back to your point about not enough people being conscious of this stuff)?

The Big Three (and imports as well) have plants in Mexico. On the one hand, that is labor not being done here. On the other hand, perhaps growing Mexico's economy would reduce the tidal wave of illegals sapping our system over here? And on and on...

It gets pretty muddy real quick, in some ways.

:shrug:

Robert_Nashville

01-26-2006, 01:50 PM

ProudPony

01-26-2006, 02:07 PM

By the way, it just occurred to me, after reading your post again, that I didn't see your take on a foreign-owned product that is built here. Or did I miss it?

What you said about supporting the local economy certainly makes sense, but it can get a little blurry even when trying to be conscientious about it. If I want a motorcycle, must I buy a Harley or Buell? Or is a made in Marysville Gold Wing ok? What about a Civic? Now that they are here, I think the local economy of Marysville, OH is helped quite a bit by the success of the plants there.

Oh listen, I can't even come close to saying that I don't have a thing in my possession that is not made in the USA.:no:
When I was 6, I got a used Honda Z-50 minibike, moved up to a 100, then ended up on a TL-125 trials bike. Honda had the only 50cc starter back then, and their trials bike was in a class of it's own. In our machine shop, we own lots of gages and measuring equipment that is Swiss made. We have some Mitutoyo equipment too. When I am beating around on old cars, I wear a $19 Casio watch (so I don't scratch up my nice Mustang-logo'ed Chronograph!). So I am not saying I am sterile to imports - not at all.

Similarly, using your example of the part you returned because it was made in Taiwan. Was it an American company that had it built in Taiwan? If so, did they build the plant overseas because they just couldn't compete building it here, because not enough people would pay the higher price required (which goes back to your point about not enough people being conscious of this stuff)?
Yes, it was Wagner Brake Products, a division of Federal-Mogul.
Here's a link (http://www.federal-mogul.com/cda/content/front/0,2194,2283_13966_21876623,00.html).
I'm sure they moved operations offshore to get more competitive, but there is a difference in the quality of the parts made 28 years ago and the ones made 2 months ago too. I can post some images of the two side-by-side if you like.
Moreover for me, it bothers me to replace USA-made parts with imported ones, especially on a restoration that is supposed to make the car something of a "time machine". In the end, they still got $5 off me, but not $25.

The Big Three (and imports as well) have plants in Mexico. On the one hand, that is labor not being done here. On the other hand, perhaps growing Mexico's economy would reduce the tidal wave of illegals sapping our system over here? And on and on...

It gets pretty muddy real quick, in some ways.

:shrug:
Plainly, if there is no American version or offering for what you seek, you buy what you can get from whomever offers it. The HD/Buell thing is a good example. If they don't offer the bike you want, get a Honda. Better yet, let HD know that you didn't find what you were after when you shopped their offerings, so they can be aware that demand exists for new products. You should be guilt-free for an experience such as that.

But in instances where there are multiple choices that are readily available, we Americans should really reserve the first lick for local suppliers and manufacturers and only resort to imported goods when nothing else can be found to fit the bill. At least that's my opinion. It has to be handled on a case-by-case basis, and you, as the buyer, are the one responsible for making the best all-around decision based on everything you know.
THAT'S what makes this issue so tough to debate... it gets subjective based on personal situations, and that's also why it gets so "muddy" as you said!

Jason E

01-26-2006, 02:08 PM

You are correct - you have the right to spend your money on whatever you wish, whenever you wish. I can't take that away. But you should be concerned about the total effects of your spending, and you should excersize moral and responsible practices with your budget - and that often means thinking about someone other than yourself.

:bow: :bow:

I have said the above statement to my Honda and Mazda driving co-workers a zillion times. I will be emailing them the link to your very thread. Thank you, sir!

96_Camaro_B4C

01-26-2006, 02:09 PM

Another good post! (Robert's).

This place is great. :cz28:

EDIT: Thanks for the reply, Proud. I didn't see it until after I posted this.

:thumb:

ProudPony

01-26-2006, 02:38 PM

ProudPony,

That was one of the better posts I’ve ever read on this or any other forum regarding the issue.

As you can probably tell from my posts, I’m a conservative; especially financially.

That tends to mean, among other things, that I’m highly in favor of free trade, breaking down barriers, competition and letting the free enterprise system work.

I believe pursuing those things are good for the US in particular and the world in general. I believe it is free enterprise, privately owned land and privately owned businesses that have, more than any other factors (other than God’s blessings) responsible for making this country the greatest the world has ever known.

But, I’m not unmindful to the problems pursuing those goals can mean to individual industries, individual companies within an industry segment or to the individual people affected; particularly when we are in the midst of significant changes.

Nevertheless, I have to stay true to my general principles or I might as well not have any.

Do I buy American (as in USA produced products that use USA raw materials and labor) whenever possible and do I think that’s good for the US economy overall…Yes and I don’t usually care much about the price in that decision.

I haven’t been in a Wal-Mart in years and have no intention of going back for a lot of reasons but mostly because I just don’t like them or how they run their company and the fact that they sell so much China produced product.

Do I think China engages in unfair business practices; uses slave/near slave labor/steals our patents and ideas and makes cheep knock-offs….Yes.

Do I think we should be doing business with China and, in effect, reward their criminal/immoral behavior…No.

Then again , what SHOULD the US do with respect to China - pretend the largest people group on the planet doesn’t exist and try to shun them/block them out of the marketplace or try to work for change? Thankfully, I’m not President Bush nor do I ever intend to be in that position so that I don’t have to make that decision but my principles tell me that working for change and pursuing trade and relations is the better path.

Where does all that leave me?

Well…I will continue to try to buy American product when I can and when it makes sense. I also will continue to reject and argue against opinions and viewpoints that, although perhaps well- intentioned, I consider to be misguided or based on false perceptions or misinformation. I will continue to try to be true to my principles but not unmindful of the pain that pursuing those principles can cause.

I do wish you well, Proud as I do all here whether you/they agree with me or not.

Read every word (as I usually do), and I reciprocate that there are some sound reasons behind your position as well.

I certainly agree that we should be investing in a growing economy like China - we'd be fools not to. However, I think in my "perfect world", we would be making more parts here and shipping them there to sell than we are now. We would certainly be getting equal tarriffs and trade regulations on goods, we would have anti-dumping regulations that went both ways, and we would not allow a $3-billion trade deficit to continue to grow. We would also force China to comply with the same economic and ergonomic regulations that we do here in the USA. (If we deemed the laws necessary for safety of people and environment here, then they should be safe for the people and environment there too.)

Also in my perfect world, US corporations would be investing in new plants in China for them to make their own goods locally - much like Import companies are building plants here to make cars for the US market. Problem is, US companies are investing in plants in China to make goods and bring them back here to the US to sell. :no: Wrong way!
A company like Frito/Lays making a plant in Beijing to make potato chips for Chinese consumption is perfect. Closing a plant in Dallas and shipping potato chips to Dallas from Beijing is wrong IMO.

I digress. You said earlier that we probably agree on more things than we realize, and our total POV is probably not too far apart, but until someone actually goes and lives in the other nations for a period of time, befriends the local people, and understands what quality of life they hold dear - there is NO WAY you can truely understand the peril of having our standard of living reduced by that much here in the USA. Honestly, I didn't know dookie about worl affairs and economic things when I was 16 and I didn't care either, but I have been moved THAT much in the last 20 years based on my travels, and I have never felt more proud (and lucky) to be an American, nor have I ever felt so afraid of our nation backsliding from our economic might and stability either.

And YES - it is better to stand for something that to waver aimlessly in life. I admire ANY person who can lay claim to a cause and defend it in a mature fshion - regardless of the issue.:bow:

Chris 96 WS6

01-26-2006, 03:35 PM

Well I'm glad to see everybody getting along and at least we digressed from the dangerous precipice of name calling.

I think everybody's on board with the idea that we should be playing much harder hardball with China over trade restriction imbalances. IMO they need our money much much more than we need their cheap goods. Yes it would hurt our standard of living some, but it would devastate China. Only way to play the game with the Commies is to play to win.

But what does any of this have to do with Import automobiles other than the fact there's a Chinese company about to drop their dumpy little cars here?

Robert_Nashville

01-26-2006, 03:41 PM

...And don't pass over the fact that for every job they gain over there, there is one being lost somewhere else.

That's true if you see the economy (ours or the world’s) as a zero-sum game. But generally speaking, economies expand…we produce more, consume more, serve growing populations, etc.

All I’m saying is that a job gained over there doesn’t automatically mean that a job had to have been lost somewhere else or that there won’t be a totally new job created to replace the one that was lost.

SCNGENNFTHGEN

01-26-2006, 06:54 PM

It's pretty apparent you can attempt to discredit anything. Yet bring little to the table. Where are your numbers?

The numbers posted for content in this thread I believe originally were posted by Scott Settlemire. If you want to discredit Scott go ahead. The man has been nothing but truthful and honest to this group of enthusiasts. Therefore until proven otherwise I will believe Scott. If you choose not to fine.

You can attempt to dissect and tear anything apart without any regard for who these people are. These people have faces, names, and families, they are our brothers, sisters, friends, and neighbors, which in the end they are ALL Americans. No matter which way you slice it 18,000 jobs lost will have an affect on themselves directly and their families. GM and Ford announcing the loss of 60K jobs over the past 3 months isn't a good thing for the country in which we reside.

How many of those 18,000 workers took jobs with Toyota or Nissan or Honda? It certainly wasn’t 18,000 I can tell you that.

It makes me sick to know in the country of which you reside provides you this freedom to come into this message board and yet be so blatantly unsupportive and show such a serious disrespect and non-caring attitude for your fellow Americans and their well being.

If it wasn't for the industrial might of this country of which Ford and GM employees during WWII contributed heavily. We might well be speaking Japanese or German right now. How much did Toyota, Nissan, and Honda help with the American war effort???? Ohhhhhhh that's right.....

I know you'll come in here and tear apart everything I've stated. That's fine as it's expected from you. At the end of the day I'm seriously appreciative and supportive of the country I live in. The history and the generations of Americans that have helped to contribute to the country and freedom we have today. Call me bias, yes I'm deadly bias to see our country succeed and prosper. :usa:
:bow: The one thing you touched on, which I agree with 100%, is the contributions to the country, made by the American brands, and the Americans who worked for them! :thumb: Robert has a point too that those companies couldn't be around without such a great free country, however its a 2 way street. Without the contributions of these great companies, and the ppl who worked for them, we would never have defeated our enemies, and we might damn well be speaking another language right now! :alert: And from what I understand Canadians buy more American made cars than we do, so I'll proudly cruise around in my 4th gen.:p This is a very tiring discussion, my eyes feel like they are about to bleed, and I didn't even get through the whole thread yet.:tired: Just read prouds post, awesome as usual.