Beating the Dead horse(again)……Z28 vs. SS = Z28 TOP DOG [Archive]

stars1010

01-17-2006, 12:42 AM

TrackMagicWS6

01-17-2006, 12:43 AM

I agree.

RussStang

01-17-2006, 12:47 AM

Well, at least you didn't beat around the bush with this thread.

Another vote for z28.

91Z28350

01-17-2006, 01:09 AM

Stars, the Z/28 was the ROADRACER. A L78 396 would hand a Z/28 it's ass in a straight line. They wanna make a high revving, lighterweight , de-contented car and call it the Z/28, they should go right ahead. It boils down to what, people want to do with the car. If they want a straight line boulevard bruiser, the SS should remain the top hp motor. They want a track ready car, then the Z/28 is the car for them. Remember, SS's also got the LS-6 in the Chevelle. And for the record the SS moniker came from the Corvette originally.

shotgun

01-17-2006, 01:11 AM

When I think of SS I use to think of big blocks when I was growing up. Lets face it, first gen z28 means two things: four speed and 302 v8. SS meant big blocks, z28 was a road racer and ss was a straight line hero. Also iroc-z stood for iroc-z28 which had the rpo z28 and of course iroc stood for international race of champions, but everyone and their grandmother knows that. SS use to mean something just like z28 use to mean something when they were still building Camaro's... GM will do whatever they want and that of course includes putting SS on anything that has an upgraded engine package.

stars1010

01-17-2006, 01:15 AM

I’m not going to argue the fact that the SS got bigger Hp engines and for the most part could beat the Z in a straight line..

However I still think the Z28 should be the top performing car…closest to the race car model..

The SS should be the boulevard bruiser, big motor with lots of options, comforts with speed…

91Z28350

01-17-2006, 01:21 AM

ok, now we are getting somewhere. They wanna offer a race prepped model like the Cobra-R and call it the z-28, this argument would be a moot point. but the fact is that the SS conjures up images of big cube detroit iron (sure you can counter with a Malibu Maxx SS, but most performance junkies are going to think of Camaro's and Chevelles), and THAT,IMO, is why Chevrolet brought back the SS moniker. Also, for those who gre up in the 90's, the z/24, z26, z34, z71 etc. are all far more fresh than a cross ram intake, dual quad, rev happy road racer. Lastly, there was never a 160 hp SS Camaro ;)

Z284ever

01-17-2006, 01:42 AM

In case no one has noticed, Bob Lutz wants to sell 150,000 Camaros per year. Time to get it in gear and have Camaro get a full and appealing line up, dontcha think ?

I think we can certainly say that Z/28 and (Camaro) SS each have unique and rich characters. Let's not squander them....let's develop them. We've got alot of cars to sell.

With that said, you all know where I stand....;)

HAZ-Matt

01-17-2006, 01:43 AM

Bwahaha. I'll be happy when the 5th gen is out and GM has the model lineup however they want.

Meccadeth

01-17-2006, 01:48 AM

I think both the Z28 and SS should get the same engine and HP rating, but give the SS more amenities and luxury items and keep the Z28 weight down to make that the top performing Camaro. I really don't care which one really is the top performing though...The ZL1 is gunna kill both anyway :shrug:

DrewSG

01-17-2006, 02:01 AM

Z28 sux, SS for the top dog.. I want people to know I have the Corvette engine in my car. :rolleyes:

TOO Z MAXX

01-17-2006, 02:32 AM

Z28 sux, SS for the top dog.. I want people to know I have the Corvette engine in my car. :rolleyes:

What! You mean a Corvette has a Camaro engine. I love saying that to Vette guys. They look at me like:confused: :confused: :confused:

Schismblade

01-17-2006, 02:38 AM

SS is the top dog. :)

CLEAN

01-17-2006, 08:44 AM

I just hope they have specific missions for each car, and not have the Z28 (or SS for that matter) being just the base Camaro with a V8 option again.

If I could have done the late 4th gen lineup, I would have had a base car w/ a V6 and an optional LS1 V8 (basically what we got w/ the Z28) but without the Z28 badges of course. The Z28 would have been the base car V8, but shipped to SLP for their Bilstein suspension setup, 17's, and maybe a Z28 stripe package. And the SS would have been the same. No new parts, just creating more of a reason for the Z28 to exist, it would have basically been a handling package for the V8 Camaro. But that's JMO.

Camaro25thann

01-17-2006, 09:07 AM

"Any Chevrolet can be an SS. . . only a Camaro can be a Z/28!"

I agree completely Stars, and I'm going to want a Z/28 in my driveway when available!:metal:

PacerX

01-17-2006, 09:11 AM

Mike2001SS

01-17-2006, 09:16 AM

Most people still don't get it a SS package has always been more of a upgraded looks package than anything. On the 4th gen SS other that looks and a handleing package how much HP increase did you get and what was added to the car for that increase nothing that could not be put on a Z in one afternoon the main thing was a more free flowing exaust and then in 02 a lid. Not much difference performance wise in my book.
A friend of mine got a Z/28 after I got my SS and he added the bilsteen sup. and the exaust and the lid and under drives and free mods and things a Ss did not get and still has thousands less in it than my SS cost. The only name plate I care about is where it says Camaro

poSSum

01-17-2006, 09:17 AM

I'm with you 100%.

The only reason the 4th gen's got mixed up is because Chevy already built a Z28, SLP had to use something to differentiate their package. Made sense for Chevy to carry on once they took the program is house.

Camaro RPO Z28 should = Corvette RPO Z06

Stuff it Sparky, you're gonna lose this one.

The people have spoken. They're speaking right now on the the FastLane Blog, they spoke with their pocketbooks from 1997-2002.

I'm with Sparky. :D

I said "SS" on FastLane because that's what I want. A powerful, well-equipped, good looking, convertible travelling machine. When I'm looking for another track car, I'll be looking for a used Z06.

Many of the people on FastLane are simply using the 4th gen pecking order to articulate their preference.

My 4th gen vote went in twice (SS & Z28/1LE) - 1LE should get integrated into Z28 for the 5th.

BTW ... where were you hiding all unveil weekend? We were looking to meet you. :)

Chris 96 WS6

01-17-2006, 09:24 AM

THAT’S IT!......:mad:

I know this has been discussed over and over again but all the ignorance recently has forced me to bring up again why the Camaro Z28 has throughout the F-bodies reign has been the top Camaro…

The Z28 was produced for 31 years to the SS’s 13 (Z28 3 more years if you count the IROC-Z’s)

The 1st gen Z28 was the race car version of the Camaro, The SS was the fully loaded street cruiser……The Z28 would out handle and out run an SS…..

Where was the SS from 1973 to 1995?...man how many years is it not produced and the Z28 was still running around

While Chevy claimed there to be a huge difference in performance during the 4th gen the SS was merely a body refreshment. If anything this was the time in the Camaros history where things went backwards….But 7 years of confusion vs over 20 years of the Z28 being the top model is hardly something for Chevrolet to continue to the 5th gen.

I’d agree that for some the SS may be the cooler car. It most always (especially in the 4th gen) came fully loaded with a high HP motor. However the Z28 was always the straight race car. For the guys here who want the stripped down, no goodies all performance, Z28 was your car.

They don’t car the top PERFORMING Corvette the Corvette SS….that’s blasphemy…Its been the Z car….the ZR1 or Z06

Furthermore the SS name has been slapped on everything from FWD cars to 6 cylinder Impalas…

This has to be said….Gm know this….I’m sick of people (newbies) getting their panties in a wad every time they see the Z28 posted above the SS.

I’m not trying to hate on the SS nameplate or anyone’s car. I personally plan on buying a MIDLEVEL SS because I want more comfort items and a convertible vs a hardcore race car. I don’t really want a 500hp car, nor do I want to pay today high premium for one these days.

This is my opening statement…..I have my flame suit on…..I’m ready to win the ensuing debate….bring on the discussion…but remember….

"Any Chevrolet can be an SS... Only a Camaro can be a Z/28!"

(flame suit on)

Great post. I agree 100%, especially with the SS name being whored out to all other products. A Corvette SS would be blasphemy. If this were 15 years ago and Z26 and Z34 and all those other numbers were being stuck on the sides of Cavaliers and Berettas then I would agree with the SS crowd that it needs to be the top Camaro. But in TODAY's climate, SS doesn't mean what I think we want it to mean.

I'd like to also add that while the 1st gen SS had the biggest motors with the most HP, the Z/28 was limited to 5 liters due to to Trans Am rules at the time. When Trans Am lifted its production motor rules...and as the big block went the way of the dinosaurs...the Z28 became the top Camaro and stayed that way for over 25 years (if you don't exclude the IROC-Z years, since the IROC was originally just a Z28 option package).

I do not advocate the two models switching places. I advocate leaving the SS where it is in the lineup, and taking the Z from basic bland boring entry level V8 model and getting it back to what it used to be, the LEGEND.

Z28 used to mean something before 1996. GM, let it mean something again.

Since the LS1 cars debuted, the SS has really been the fully loaded grand touring Camaro, while the Z was just the entry level V8 w/little distinction from the V6 cars. A name like Z28 doesn't belong on such a model. Lets just bring back a "Camaro V8" and move the Z where it belongs, as a purposeful street legal race car, and the SS can still be the big power full optioned out Saturday night street hero car. The Z will just have more HP and more brakes, etc. :D

Its interesting during the last few years more SS's were sold than Z28's. Why? Because nobody wants a boring looking car. So make the SS what it was, but lets stop the horror of the cheapened Z28 name please. The highest performing model is supposed to be the lowest volume, not the other way around.

Chris 96 WS6

01-17-2006, 09:26 AM

I'm with you 100%.

BTW ... where were you hiding all unveil weekend? We were looking to meet you. :)

No chit...I never did find him either.

Mike2001SS

01-17-2006, 09:33 AM

No chit...I never did find him either.
He was lurking around I saw him and he may be in one of my pics i will have to look back at them

kick Z tail out

01-17-2006, 09:37 AM

Z28

We have enough Cobalt SS and Aveo SS cars running around. ;) The SS badge is tainted.

Z284ever

01-17-2006, 10:00 AM

Stuff it Sparky, you're gonna lose this one.

The people have spoken. They're speaking right now on the the FastLane Blog, they spoke with their pocketbooks from 1997-2002.

Oh, and don't be too shocked if you see a Corvette SS in the relatively near future.

Bro, what's with all this animosity toward the Z/28? Did a high revving one scare you as a child?

Anyway, I'm with poSSum, I've noticed that alot of SSOA members want (and want to prove it with their pocketbooks), a Z/28 'track car'. And to repeat poSSum again, where were you last week, we were looking for you.

Chris 96 WS6

01-17-2006, 10:32 AM

Stuff it Sparky, you're gonna lose this one.

The people have spoken. They're speaking right now on the the FastLane Blog, they spoke with their pocketbooks from 1997-2002.

Oh, and don't be too shocked if you see a Corvette SS in the relatively near future.

Problem with your sales = what model should be where premise:

1. You're suggesting the highest volume car should be the top model? That's bass ackwards from all normalcy, as the top performer should be the most exclusive.

2. Technically since the SS was an option package and not its own model, you can't say SS outsold the Z28 as every SS was a Z, but not the other way around. I get the point, however in reality is was because the Z was so bland nobody wanted it. The 4th Gen Z28 was no REAL Z28 to anybody who knows their Camaro History.

3. If the SS is going to be the highest volume performance model, then it shouldn't be the top performer or the highest price car either. If your most expensive car sells the most, then the whole nameplate is in jeopardy again, because it means you are not moving enough volume.

As for the SS Corvette, I'll hold my breath on that one. My money's on the Z06 going LS9 and the LS7 being orphaned........for now :D

CLEAN

01-17-2006, 11:08 AM

What's wrong with the Mustang model? Base V6<Bang for the buck V8<Top Performer? I'd guess the V6 has the most sales, followed by the the GT, and lastly, in a very distant 3rd in terms of % of total sales, the GT-500 (or Cobra if you want to use the last couple of years sales numbers). Sure on paper the Cobra didn't account for much of a percentage, but they were the halo cars, and they sold a bunch of them at much higher prices than the base and GT cars.

Although it's also interesting to note that Ford had only one vehicle line w/ a GT trim (ala Z28), but several models of SVT vehicles (SS). Hmmmmmmm Top dog=SVT=SS??

CLEAN

01-17-2006, 11:19 AM

What's really interesting to me is the competition of SS vs Z28, which one is better, blah blah blah. When they first co-existed, they were set up to do 2 totally different things! One may be better at this, while the other may be better at that. I don't remember there being any of this discussion back then. Heck, if you asked me today if I'd rather have a 1970 SS 396 or a 1970 Z28 LT-1....H*LL, I wouldn't care, they're BOTH cool.

I think the biggest problem with this argument is that it seems to be based on recent history only, and the fact that the 4th gen Z28 was really nothing more than a V8 base Camaro. When the SS appeared, this fact was painfully obvious. How did the Firebird line, which sold a fraction of Camaro sales, score a different front and rear end, spoiler, and seats for the Trans Am to differentiate it from the base Firebird and Formula, but Camaro couldn't get the same thing to make the Z28 something special?

HOTCIVIC

01-17-2006, 11:26 AM

I vote SS should be top dog. :)

Chris 96 WS6

01-17-2006, 11:43 AM

I think the biggest problem with this argument is that it seems to be based on recent history only, and the fact that the 4th gen Z28 was really nothing more than a V8 base Camaro. When the SS appeared, this fact was painfully obvious. How did the Firebird line, which sold a fraction of Camaro sales, score a different front and rear end, spoiler, and seats for the Trans Am to differentiate it from the base Firebird and Formula, but Camaro couldn't get the same thing to make the Z28 something special?

I seem to remember from all the press in 1993 that the RS was so successful that with the 4th gen they wanted to continue the idea of the base car looking like the Z28...buyers wanted it that way.

But they failed in execution. Maybe Scott has some insight but IMO they dumbed down the Z rather than spiffing up the base cars.

CLEAN

01-17-2006, 11:54 AM

I seem to remember from all the press in 1993 that the RS was so successful that with the 4th gen they wanted to continue the idea of the base car looking like the Z28...buyers wanted it that way.

But they failed in execution. Maybe Scott has some insight but IMO they dumbed down the Z rather than spiffing up the base cars.

Had One! 92 RS 25th! Loved it, wish I could have had the TPI though, but thats another story. I agree w/ you, but they were only going w/ 2 engines, and there was nothing in the middle, as opposed to 1992, when they had 4 to choose from. Ahhh, the good old days.....:(

RhinoSS

01-17-2006, 12:01 PM

THAT’S IT!......:mad:

I know this has been discussed over and over again but all the ignorance recently has forced me to bring up again why the Camaro Z28 has throughout the F-bodies reign has been the top Camaro…

The Z28 was produced for 31 years to the SS’s 13 (Z28 3 more years if you count the IROC-Z’s)

The 1st gen Z28 was the race car version of the Camaro, The SS was the fully loaded street cruiser……The Z28 would out handle and out run an SS…..

Where was the SS from 1973 to 1995?...man how many years is it not produced and the Z28 was still running around

While Chevy claimed there to be a huge difference in performance during the 4th gen the SS was merely a body refreshment. If anything this was the time in the Camaros history where things went backwards….But 7 years of confusion vs over 20 years of the Z28 being the top model is hardly something for Chevrolet to continue to the 5th gen.

I’d agree that for some the SS may be the cooler car. It most always (especially in the 4th gen) came fully loaded with a high HP motor. However the Z28 was always the straight race car. For the guys here who want the stripped down, no goodies all performance, Z28 was your car.

They don’t car the top PERFORMING Corvette the Corvette SS….that’s blasphemy…Its been the Z car….the ZR1 or Z06

Furthermore the SS name has been slapped on everything from FWD cars to 6 cylinder Impalas…

This has to be said….Gm know this….I’m sick of people (newbies) getting their panties in a wad every time they see the Z28 posted above the SS.

I’m not trying to hate on the SS nameplate or anyone’s car. I personally plan on buying a MIDLEVEL SS because I want more comfort items and a convertible vs a hardcore race car. I don’t really want a 500hp car, nor do I want to pay today high premium for one these days.

This is my opening statement…..I have my flame suit on…..I’m ready to win the ensuing debate….bring on the discussion…but remember….

"Any Chevrolet can be an SS... Only a Camaro can be a Z/28!"

(flame suit on)

While you state it's ignorance on our part, I feel it's bullheadedness on your part. I pride myself on knowing plenty about the history of the Camaro, calling me ignorant due to my thought that the SS should be on top is extremely short sighted. This is a highly subjective topic and this is simply your opinion, just as everybody else is entitled to theirs. If we'd like to see the SS on top of the Z/28, who really cares?
If GM was to make a Z and not an SS... I wouldn't care, I'd buy the Z. If it was the other way around, I'm sure a lot of Z fans would happily purchase the SS. When it's all said and done, it's the same car. Let GM decide what they want to do and purchase what you want.

I hate to get into a highly objective arguement like this, if I was asked I'd explain it this way... if the Z/28 was a road racer, and the SS was a street cruiser, why on earth would you want to call it a Z when it's going to be primarily a street cruiser?:confused: :confused:

If GM were to release a full fledged race car for the trans-am series, I'd be happy to see the Z/28 on top. Until that market is addressed, I feel the SS should still remain on the top; just as every other Chevy line.

As far as my "Newbie" status is concerned, I have been visiting the site for a number of years, in fact actively once I purchased my current '02. Due to an email address change and a forgotten password I was required to register with a seperate username.

Chris 96 WS6

01-17-2006, 12:08 PM

I hate to get into a highly objective arguement like this... although if the Z/28 was a road racer, and the SS was a street cruiser, why on earth would you want to call it a Z when it's going to be primarily a street cruiser?:confused: :confused: ;)

I think that's part of my point. SS should be the big hp boulevard king. Z28 should have even more hp (how much more is up for debate), but it should be the Z06 style track car.

That's the way it has always been and that's the way it should be. SS can therefore still be the V8 volume leader because Z will be more limited/exclusive, also just like it is supposed to be.

I realize the Z had less HP than the SS originally, but also realize that was due to Trans Am rules at the time and that today HP and handling upgrades go hand in hand.

Making the SS a big HP car with sloppy handling and the Z a great handling car with modest HP is going to mean poor sales for BOTH cars. There has to be a teir relationship between the models..."separate but equal" missions won't work anymore.

saroyan689

01-17-2006, 12:19 PM

. Lastly, there was never a 160 hp SS Camaro ;)

ZING!:p

notgetleft

01-17-2006, 03:18 PM

All of you "Z28 never went away" people need to think about it some more.

there was never a 150hp SS after all (the early LG4s weren't 160hp, that was the upgraded version) There were also never 17 second 2nd gen SS camaros.

Seriously, through MOST of the second and third gens, Z28 meant next to nothing. My 1979 Z28 had the exact same drivetrain and suspension as a base V8 camaro except the Y pipe into 2 mufflers. My 1985 Z28 had base suspension and a 155hp LG4. My 1992 Z28 convertible had RS suspension (but at least did have TPI, though L98 was not an option in verts).

And let's not forget that while SS was gone, from 1985-1990, IROC wa the top camaro, and IROC ALWAYS included the top suspension. Once again, i had a 1985 Z28 that was nothing but a base V8 car with a badge. A 1985 IROC would have guaranteed stiffer springs, bigger sway bars, bilstein shocks and the wonder bar. Add in the 4th gens and for 12 out of the last 23 years, Z28 wasn't even the top RPO for camaro.

And once again, for 30 years, Z28 meant nothing but "this car has a V8, the rest is anyone's guess". OTOH, for the past 10 years, SS has meant "this is the top model available for the car you're looking at"

opinions are like *******s though, since this is such a fun argument i figured i'd throw mine out there too.

I honestly feel like the people arguing for Z28 have unrealistic nostaligia about the badge considering it's been over 30 years since Z28 on the side of a camaro meant anything except V8 inside. Did i already say that? Worth repeating i guess since after all, most potential buyers of this car were either not born, or at the least, not old enough to drive the last time Z28 meant anything special.

That said, i'm pretty sure i'm wrong and GM will screw up and try to get cute and use Z28 for the top dog as if the events in my previous paragraphs never happened.

91Z28350

01-17-2006, 03:31 PM

Technically it was 145 hp, but for the rest of it , :bow:

But you have to admit, this is fun :D

notgetleft

01-17-2006, 03:35 PM

Technically it was 145 hp, but for the rest of it , :bow:

But you have to admit, this is fun :D

I almost wrote that but wasn't 100% sure, and I was too lazy to look it up, and didn't want to risk being called for exageration and negate the fact that for over 30 years Z28 has meant exactly nothing except this car has a V8

DrewSG

01-17-2006, 03:37 PM

In the third gens, the Z28 was essentially what the SS was in the 4th gens. Hood, spoiler, handling upgrades

91Z28350

01-17-2006, 03:44 PM

I almost wrote that but wasn't 100% sure, and I was too lazy to look it up, and didn't want to risk being called for exageration and negate the fact that for over 30 years Z28 has meant exactly nothing except this car has a V8

That's alright, I wrote 160, gave them the benefit (LOL yea right) of the Cross fire motor in '82.

Chris 96 WS6

01-17-2006, 03:51 PM

The cross fire was 165 hp, get it right, LOL.

Sharker524

01-17-2006, 04:05 PM

I'm going to note just one thing, and then I am going to sleep.

The concept has the same style scoop on the front as the Z06.

Now, for the sleep....

ZZZZZZZZZZ......ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ........Z ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ.......ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ ZZZZZZ......ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ.... .......ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ........ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ ZZZZ.........................

91Z28350

01-17-2006, 04:38 PM

The cross fire was 165 hp, get it right, LOL.

My bad :D :bow:

91Z28350

01-17-2006, 04:39 PM

SSCamaro99_3

01-17-2006, 04:52 PM

There were 0 Z28's produced in 1975-76. Should the top model by Type LT, or should it be L/T? :p :D

Sixer-Bird

01-17-2006, 05:00 PM

My father had a 68 Z/28 that he inherited from my uncle. When my uncle had it he drag raced it, putting to shame many rats. While the 302 1st gen Z/28 may have been intended for road racing, don't for a second underestimate it's straight line abilities. Ask the people who owned one back in the day that actually drag raced them. The 302 was sick, sick motor.

And for the record, as I know I've stated numerous times on this board in regards to this topic, the original Corvette SS was a one-off race car that failed miserably at Sebring in 1957. Not exactly something I'd be interested in resurecting.

91Z28350

01-17-2006, 05:10 PM

While I don't deny that the 302 was a beautiful motor, dollar for dollar , the high compression big blocks owned it in the 1/4 mile. Now on the road course, that is a completely different matter.

stars1010

01-17-2006, 05:32 PM

67speeda

01-17-2006, 05:57 PM

i disagree

......if i had a 67 z/28 i woudl agree then lol

R377

01-17-2006, 06:19 PM

For those of you using history to support your argument that Z28 is king, here's one simple question:

Out of all the years in which BOTH an SS and a Z28 were available, which one was most often the top performer?

notgetleft

01-17-2006, 06:26 PM

In the third gens, the Z28 was essentially what the SS was in the 4th gens. Hood, spoiler, handling upgrades

WRONG!!!

In the thirdgens, Z28 meant nothing except this car has a V8. I owned 2 Z28 thirdgens, and both had the exact same suspension as was under a base/RS car. All Z28 included was Z28 badges to go with the LG4/LO3 and maybe mid level interior trim standard.

In 91/92 all z28s had TPI, but from 1982-1990, you could order a Z28/IROC with the lowest powered V8 available which ranged from 145hp LG4s to 170hp TBI. Not only COULD you order them with the low power engines, IN FACT THE VAST MAJORITY OF THEM WERE ORDERED THAT WAY. That's why thirdgens got such a bad rep as performance dogs vs. the fox stangs. The top engine fbodies were right with the mustang in any given year, but since they represented such a small fraction of the Z28/IROCs on the road, everybody and there mother could tell you stores about all the z28/IROCs they used to smoke with their mustang.

notgetleft

01-17-2006, 06:33 PM

Ok……

So for some years in the 2nd and 3rd gen the Z28 may not have been the most desirable of Camaro’s throughout muscle car history….but ya know what?

IT WAS STILL THE TOP MODEL FOR THOSE YEARS!

Sorry, but no it wasn't.

IROC was clearly the top model over Z28 and WAS a seperate option code from 85-87 (B4Z). Don't give me some BS about the Z in irc-z meaning Z28 because if all you checked was Z28 on the option sheet in 1985-1987 all you got was an LG4 and Z28 badges, no wonder bar, no big sway bars, no bilsteins, no heavy springs. Option B4Z came standard with the top suspension and all those goodies. If you have to add an option to Z28 to make it have the best ****, then Z28 ain't it.

It was either 88 or 89 that B4Z went away (or was it became standard with Z28) but then, those cars don't have Z28 badges or markings anywhere on the car except the RPO sticker either.

So basically, chevy clearly has no historical predilection against putting any and every performance option over Z28. Let's not forget 1Le, which was also in essence the real Z28 when it was available since it had to be ordered on a car, or included on it's own the best engine, brake and suspension options, as well lightweight only in the thirdgens

turbo96z28

01-17-2006, 06:39 PM

i'm in the Z/28 camp and i'll explain why.......

i first got into Camaros because of the 1st gens. i used to write book reports on them in school. yes, i'm a Camaro geek.......

Chris 96 WS6 already said alot of what i was thinking so i'll try not to repeat him.

the car is 1st gen inspired and i think the model line up should be also. that being said, the SS should get "king of the street" honors, (don't even think about it James :) ) and the Z/28 should be the Z06 of the Camaro world.

the SS name is a common among almost all Chevy models. the Corvette and the Camaro have never been "common" Chevys. they are cars that have a character that lives outside of Chevy.

i do think the SS should be the top model in the line up (no James :p).

that being said, i think the Z/28 should be the top performer of the line.

both cars can live together fine, but differentiate them this time by giving each badge a purpose again, just like the 1st gens.

run the Z/28 in the Speed World Challenge.

run the SS in any and all NHRA classes.

i don't want a repeat of the 4th gens.

i want to buy a Z/28 knowing the confidence to take it to any road course in the country is built into the car.

i want the SS guys to beat up on any and all competitors at drag strips across the country.

who cars which one gets the gigundo displacement LSwhateverisavailablein08. give these designations back their personality and all this bickering will end.

jg95z28

01-17-2006, 06:42 PM

HOTCIVIC

01-17-2006, 06:49 PM

The first production Chevrolet "SS" had a straight six. (The Z/28 has always had a V8.)

The 4th gen "SS" was merely a sticker/rims/scoop option on top of the Z28.

Any Camaro-man worth his salt knows Z28 is top dog. Those that say otherwise shouldn't be allowed to own a Camaro.

What were we arguing about again? ;)

The year the Camaro SS had a straight six, was there a Z28 with a V8 that same year?

The 4th gen SS had the stickers/rims/scoops, but the Z28 was not the top dog, and was not a better performer those years.

When the SS and Z28 were both offered in the same year, the SS was top dog. In every car that Chevy offers right now, the SS is top dog. Chevy would be nuts to offer an SS in the next Camaro that is less powerful than the Z28. JMHO. :D

jrummi

01-17-2006, 06:52 PM

Everyone is well aware that we are in the middle of a huge performance revival. HP numbers are jumping higher and higher every year for most car manufacturers. Consumers want power!

This has been realized through the popularity of performance lines created by manufacturers. Mercedes has AMG, BMW has M, Audi has S, Chrysler has SRT, Ford = SVT, mazda has mazdaspeed, ect. I believe GM will be trying to capitalize on this trend, we will probably see more SS, redline, GXP, ect..

I think it is logical to assume that SS will be the top performance model because chevy already has SS as the top performance model on many of their other cars. They want people to see something (like an SS badge) and know that is the top dog. I wouldn't be suprised if corvette ss turns out to be the blue devil car.

This trend will probably supercede any arguement about whether z28 or ss is the historical owner of top dog status.

Morginie

01-17-2006, 06:59 PM

When the SS and Z28 were both offered in the same year, the SS was top dog. In every car that Chevy offers right now, the SS is top dog. Chevy would be nuts to offer an SS in the next Camaro that is less powerful than the Z28. JMHO. :D

If we are going to go by your logic then the Corvette Z06 should be called the Corvette SS, but you know what, it isn't.

jg95z28

01-17-2006, 07:02 PM

The year the Camaro SS had a straight six, was there a Z28 with a V8 that same year?
I never said Camaro SS had a straight six. I said "the first production Chevrolet 'SS' was a straight six".

The 4th gen SS had the stickers/rims/scoops, but the Z28 was not the top dog, and was not a better performer those years.
Nor was the "SS" a better performer; thanks for proving my point.

When the SS and Z28 were both offered in the same year, the SS was top dog....
Which years are you refering to? The late 1960's when race prepped Z/28s regularly smoked race prepped 396s? The longest period of time when SS and Z/28 Camaros coexisted was from 1996 to 2002 (six years) and you've already said that there was no difference during that time.

In every car that Chevy offers right now, the SS is top dog. Chevy would be nuts to offer an SS in the next Camaro that is less powerful than the Z28. JMHO. :D
Then I guess they're nuts because the top Corvette is called Z06, huh?

merlinsteele

01-17-2006, 07:06 PM

I guess I'm a 'newbie' and don't know as much about the history of Camaros as some of you guys, but it just makes sense that SS be the top dog.

Someone stated that the SS badge was used on a lot of cars, and then it was also said that the Camaro and Corvette are in a different class from the other Chevys. Those both seem true to me, but what are we worried about here, that the normal non-Camaro tuned person will see a SS and aSSume (hehe) that it's no better than another SS?

That being said, I feel like there should be a pretty badass Z28 available for the loyal everyman. Whichever way it goes, I'll be happy, though. :) JMHO though, don't mind me.

HTWLSS

01-17-2006, 07:22 PM

I never said Camaro SS had a straight six. I said "the first production Chevrolet 'SS' was a straight six".

As in Nova/Chevy II ;)

67speeda

01-17-2006, 07:30 PM

MAKE UP A NEW NAME (ZS or something)
or make the Camaro Z06 top and the SS the crazy street car wit all teh goodies and the z/28 have less goodies and more race like

done deal lol

Chris 96 WS6

01-17-2006, 07:41 PM

I'd personally rather they just leave the Z28 name dead rather than bring it back on some watered down "base" v8 model.

Just Camaro and Camaro SS and be done with it.

detltu

01-17-2006, 07:46 PM

I think the argument of Z/28 vs SS has always been a matter of opinion. They each had their strengths . I think the SS will probably be the top model since chevrolet is setting SS versus SRT and SVT etc. I don't particularly have a problem with that. I think if they set the Z28 as the top model I think they should do a Z06 like car. No convertible or T-tops, light weight, stiffer suspension. Like I said I think the SS will be the top of the line.

HOTCIVIC

01-17-2006, 07:48 PM

If we are going to go by your logic then the Corvette Z06 should be called the Corvette SS, but you know what, it isn't.

Yep you know what, it's not. But the Vette hasn't been known to have an SS option. The Vette is considered to be in a class of its own.

I never said Camaro SS had a straight six. I said "the first production Chevrolet 'SS' was a straight six".

Cool. That helps my case I guess.

Nor was the "SS" a better performer; thanks for proving my point.

But the Z28 wasn't a better performer either. The SS was "rated" higher and considered to be top dog.

Which years are you refering to? The late 1960's when race prepped Z/28s regularly smoked race prepped 396s? The longest period of time when SS and Z/28 Camaros coexisted was from 1996 to 2002 (six years) and you've already said that there was no difference during that time.

In the late 1960s, what Z28 was more powerful from the factory than the SS Camaro?

In 1996 to 2002, it is well known by Camaro enthusiasts that there was little difference in track times, but the SS was rated with more power from the factory and considered to be top dog. Except for the extreme Z28 fans living in a dream world who thought Chevy wanted the public to perceive the Z28 as "top dog" over the SS. ;)

Then I guess they're nuts because the top Corvette is called Z06, huh?

Yes it is called the Z06. When was the Corvette ever referred to as an "SS"? Once back in the 50s? Actually now there are rumors that they may be making a Corvette SS that will be the top performing Vette, making the SS the top performer in every category, including the Camaro, just the way it should be. :D

Z284ever

01-17-2006, 09:35 PM

Good Grief!!

This thread is like flying over Hiroshima the day after the Enola Gay, and bouncing the rubble with another nuke.

Every argument has already been made and countered a hundred times.

But just one thing, it's great to have an opinion...especially when you can back it up....but I simply cannot stand it when people pull "facts" out of their a$$. I see some of that in this thread. It annoys me.

stars1010

01-17-2006, 09:54 PM

91Z28350

01-17-2006, 09:57 PM

90rocz

01-17-2006, 09:59 PM

I might be wrong but, if we make the new Z28 into a 1LE style vehicle (..see..Z06), the price will be near or more than an SS, and we'll end up selling more plain-jane Camaro coupes than anything.
I say give the Big Cubes to the SS, it'll need more grunt with all the power options...and give the Z28 a higher revving version of the LS2, lighter quicker and more agile....what ya think?;)

RussStang

01-17-2006, 10:33 PM

Which years are you refering to? The late 1960's when race prepped Z/28s regularly smoked race prepped 396s? The longest period of time when SS and Z/28 Camaros coexisted was from 1996 to 2002 (six years) and you've already said that there was no difference during that time.

I am a supporter of the z28 top dog thing, but when has a race prepped 302 regularly smoked a race prepped 396. If we are talking about straight line, the 396 would have slaughtered the 302, especially in "race prepped" trim. I know the 302s were underrated, but I think the legend the dz302 has become greater in legend than in reality.

ZZMike

01-17-2006, 10:52 PM

I am a supporter of the z28 top dog thing, but when has a race prepped 302 regularly smoked a race prepped 396. If we are talking about straight line, the 396 would have slaughtered the 302, especially in "race prepped" trim. I know the 302s were underrated, but I think the legend the dz302 has become greater in legend than in reality.

Honestly, I don't care what we get, hell they can call it a Berlinetta as long as it's fast. But for the record, my '68 crossram Z/28 would beat on 396's like a kettle drum on a regular basis, both on the street and at the dragstrip. I never ran against an L-78 375 horse model that I remember, they were more rare then than they are now with all of the cloning going on. But I ran into a few 350 horse ones and a slew of 325 horse ones that couldn't keep up. For those of us that were there during the late 60's and actually lived through it, there is more to the 302 legend than what you may realize.

Fbodfather

01-17-2006, 10:53 PM

and it was JUST GETTING PEACEFUL AROUND HERE..............

OK...listen up.

Stop the fighting.

I don't care about the history of the various nameplates......I've already provided that to every man, woman, and child (and men acting like children) at GM...............

I've been called a liar and worse on this board over the names.

Here's my take.......

The SS is a hallowed nameplate.......but it's been placed on many Chevrolets other than Camaro.

Z28 is Camaro......and ONLY Camaro. In fact, you could say that the Z28 is a brand unto itself. ("I drive a Z28"tells the world you drive a Camaro......"I drive an SS" tells the world you drive a Chevrolet.)

Now.....I will continue to defend why we used the SS Moniker in 1996.......and I've been thru it so many times I refuse to do it again.....suffice to say we did it.....I defend it......I'm Fbodfather, ...so SHUT UP!!!! (how's THAT for arrogance????) <evilgrin>

So.......calm down. Enjoy the community.

We'll decide what monikers go on the vehicles.......and you already know which one I think needs to go on the top dog.

One other thing...when the decision is made to build this car, understand that not every model will come out right away. (think C6 Z06.....)

Now......back to our regularly scheduled bickering.........

Chris 96 WS6

01-17-2006, 11:06 PM

and it was JUST GETTING PEACEFUL AROUND
Here's my take.......

The SS is a hallowed nameplate.......but it's been placed on many Chevrolets other than Camaro.

Yep...

Z28 is Camaro......and ONLY Camaro. In fact, you could say that the Z28 is a brand unto itself. ("I drive a Z28"tells the world you drive a Camaro......"I drive an SS" tells the world you drive a Chevrolet.)

Yep...

Now.....I will continue to defend why we used the SS Moniker in 1996.......and I've been thru it so many times I refuse to do it again.....suffice to say we did it.....I defend it......I'm Fbodfather, ...so SHUT UP!!!! (how's THAT for arrogance????) <evilgrin>

No problem there, it was the right move unless you wanted to re-engineer the whole lineup/model arrangement.

One other thing...when the decision is made to build this car, understand that not every model will come out right away. (think C6 Z06.....)

I like what I'm hearing :D

Methinks this discussion is over.

RussStang

01-17-2006, 11:08 PM

Honestly, I don't care what we get, hell they can call it a Berlinetta as long as it's fast. But for the record, my '68 crossram Z/28 would beat on 396's like a kettle drum on a regular basis, both on the street and at the dragstrip. I never ran against an L-78 375 horse model that I remember, they were more rare then than they are now with all of the cloning going on. But I ran into a few 350 horse ones and a slew of 325 horse ones that couldn't keep up. For those of us that were there during the late 60's and actually lived through it, there is more to the 302 legend than what you may realize.

Did you not read where it was mentioned "race prepped" 396s. When I hear race prepped, I think of an engine that is race prepped. I would be left to presume that is directly regarding the L-78 motor, considering that it was the HO model.

Z284ever

01-17-2006, 11:09 PM

Charlie, not calling you out here, but I am curious as to which facts are in error? I personally hate spreading incorrect information, so if some are mine, let me know.

Some of the 3rd gen info being spread here is just plain wrong.

What is correct though is that the 1982 Z/28 (YES! it had a SPECIFIC Z/28 only suspension notgetleft), had 165hp. It was a different time. The badass - and it was - Mustang GT had 157 hp. The Corvette had 200.

The other thing is the implication that all Camaro SS's came with the 375 horse 396. I know that you know that's not true. The 375 horse cars were very fast but handled like a, (in the words of the Camaro's chief engineer) "truck". The 325 horse 396 handled no better and was alittle pokey in a straight line as well. Most however, were equipped like my SS350 - that's Camaro SS350. And I know why. Because you could get alittle extra trim and some extra power for not too much money. A simple formula that worked well.

All versions of the Camaro SS were cool, and added to the great variety in Camaro's line-up.

Sure, I wish I still had my SS...but the moniker that gives me goosebumps to this day is Z/28.

RussStang

01-17-2006, 11:09 PM

Methinks this discussion is over.

Yes, it certainly does.

ZZMike

01-17-2006, 11:14 PM

Did you not read where it was mentioned "race prepped" 396s. When I hear race prepped, I think of an engine that is race prepped. I would be left to presume that is directly regarding the L-78 motor, considering that it was the HO model.

You would be incorrect in that assumption. A 375 horse 396 was no more race prepped than its 325 horse bretheren. You would need to curve the distributor, plop on the headers, go buy the cheaters, re-jet the carb, re-arc the leaf springs on the passenger side, install slapper bars, the list goes on and on. That was the 60's, man. No offense, I know you weren't there, just trying to clear the air a little...

And by the way, I'm not shooting a line of ****, my car is still mine, in the garage. I'm not talking about my barber's uncle's neighbor's sister's car.

RussStang

01-17-2006, 11:17 PM

I am not the one who used the term race prepped. I was just left to assume race prepped meant the highest powered available motor. Race prepped engines seldom make only 375hp out of 396CID, even in the 60s.

Actual race prepped 302 versus actual race prepped 396, no contest.

ZZMike

01-17-2006, 11:19 PM

Actual race prepped 302 versus actual race prepped 396, no contest.

You are correct, the 302 killed them.

RussStang

01-17-2006, 11:21 PM

Got any proof to that? What do you consider a race prepped engine? I see absolutely no way that a balls out race ready 396 would have any trouble whatsoever with dealing with a balls out race ready 302 in a straightline contest.

ZZMike

01-17-2006, 11:27 PM

RussStang

01-17-2006, 11:45 PM

I wonder what a race ready 396 would dyno? Again, I don't know if we are understanding the term race ready the same way.

ZZMike

01-17-2006, 11:49 PM

Me either. Let's just hope they build this new one in a fashion that is powerful enough that it allows us to enjoy it, regardless of what it's called.

Cheers,

ZZMike

RussStang

01-17-2006, 11:51 PM

Let's just hope they build this new one in a fashion that is powerful enough that it allows us to enjoy it, regardless of what it's called.

I have little doubt of that.

5thgen69camaro

01-18-2006, 01:08 AM

I wonder what a race ready 396 would dyno? Again, I don't know if we are understanding the term race ready the same way.

Sounds like you want to compare a Bone stock Cross Ram Z28 From the factory which was race ready, with a modified 396 SS?

S. Holley

01-18-2006, 01:14 AM

While you state it's ignorance on our part, I feel it's bullheadedness on your part. I pride myself on knowing plenty about the history of the Camaro, calling me ignorant due to my thought that the SS should be on top is extremely short sighted. This is a highly subjective topic and this is simply your opinion, just as everybody else is entitled to theirs. If we'd like to see the SS on top of the Z/28, who really cares?
If GM was to make a Z and not an SS... I wouldn't care, I'd buy the Z. If it was the other way around, I'm sure a lot of Z fans would happily purchase the SS. When it's all said and done, it's the same car. Let GM decide what they want to do and purchase what you want.

I hate to get into a highly objective arguement like this, if I was asked I'd explain it this way... if the Z/28 was a road racer, and the SS was a street cruiser, why on earth would you want to call it a Z when it's going to be primarily a street cruiser?:confused: :confused:

If GM were to release a full fledged race car for the trans-am series, I'd be happy to see the Z/28 on top. Until that market is addressed, I feel the SS should still remain on the top; just as every other Chevy line.

As far as my "Newbie" status is concerned, I have been visiting the site for a number of years, in fact actively once I purchased my current '02. Due to an email address change and a forgotten password I was required to register with a seperate username.

Rhino you make a very good point.

PROBLEM HERE I THING IS AGE. Many camaro owners are younger than me. And I was not around in the 60's:eek: I am a pre-smog area baby.

BUT my uncles and father all had chevys and muscle cars. And they talked as much as we do today. NOBODY street raced with a 302 stang or 302 Z28...not with 440's and 454's running around town.:bow:

I can tell you this ...in a straight line the SS series with a bigblock was a force on the street. And if you look at option list from 67-72 you could have whatever you wanted to pay for. Including a 307 SS car. Yes it is true!

The truth is GM change stuff around as the years went on... caused a little confusion to the young people.

In the early 70's BIG hp was headed out, the SS dropped out in 72...THE DARK AGES... started no HP and ford called a pinto a mustang :cry:

But handling was still in. So the Z28 came back in 1977 with what 180 HP 4 speed manual and fat tires with fat sway bars and body stripes...

SOLD LIKE HOT CAKES... So the GM sticks with Z28 as the V8 option with handling...they are selling cars and history at the same time.

LOOK to the early 90's HP is back with the LT1...smog is out!! computers are in!!! People are buying cars as fast as cars from the 60's and early 70's

(yes most muscle cars are low 14 and high 13 second cars with crappy period tires and technology) Hell a 69 Z/28 was a mid to high 14 second car! (stock tires flamers:D )

GM... looking at more sales. Says we can BRING BACK A CLASSIC.... enters the SS. With the IMPALA and the Camaro... the glory of HP becomes a option box for the consumer. (problem is the SS now has more handling than the Z/28) From 96 to today. The SS has out optioned the Z/28 from HP to Handling.

Were in the past the Z/28 was your ROAD RACE, AUTOCROSS, TRANS AM RACER...It has turned into the forgive me... the mustang GT of the f-body.

IT IS TRUE! Only the camaro can be a Z/28 BUT only GM can decide how they will fix the problem of naming our future CAR!

S. Holley

01-18-2006, 01:24 AM

I am a supporter of the z28 top dog thing, but when has a race prepped 302 regularly smoked a race prepped 396. If we are talking about straight line, the 396 would have slaughtered the 302, especially in "race prepped" trim. I know the 302s were underrated, but I think the legend the dz302 has become greater in legend than in reality.

302 camaro is a Legend... because it kick some serious butt in TRANS AM racing. That winning streak in the late 60 gave the CAR A CULT LIKE FOLLOWING that ran over into the show room.

Yes the 290hp 302 was unrated... but rated and numbers were all a big hussle back in those days...You wanted to have the highest power rating... but not so high the insurance company would drop you... But not so low you would not be able to back it up on the street...

Ford played second fiddle to chevy throughout the late 60's and Mopar stuck it to chevy in the early 70's with 440's and hemi e-bodies.

this is history repeating itself...GM will come out swinging!

I hope:eek:

RussStang

01-18-2006, 02:08 AM

Sounds like you want to compare a Bone stock Cross Ram Z28 From the factory which was race ready, with a modified 396 SS?

Look guys, I have no intention of being a 396 flagwaver, it was just stated earlier in this thread (not by myself) that a "race prepped" 302 would beat on a "race prepped" 396, which I am still highly skeptical about, assuming that race prepped means fully built drag engine.

The z28 has become a legend in its own right, and honestly if I had the choice between a 69 z28 302 and a 69 396SS, I would take the z28.

RussStang

01-18-2006, 02:13 AM

(yes most muscle cars are low 14 and high 13 second cars with crappy period tires and technology) Hell a 69 Z/28 was a mid to high 14 second car! (stock tires flamers:D )

Most muscle cars were 15 second cars. Some of the ones with the sought after hot engines would run in the 14s, and the monsters like the Boss 429s and the 454 LS-6 Chevelles would run in the 13s. Then there are the ultra rare cars like the ZL1s that ran 11s, but I don't know how much they are worth mentioning, considering how few of them were actually sold.

I remember reading a car magazine a few years ago that pitted an SVT Focus against a Boss 302, and the SVT Focus outaccelerated it.

Big Als Z

01-18-2006, 02:21 AM

Forget about the 302!! What about teh LT1 350 that beat out the 402 BBC's! What about the fact that SS was never to be seen from 73 to 96!!! SS is and will be trim related. Z28 has been king for performance.
GM COULD go both ways. They could put Z28 as the mid pack, GT fighter, and the SS could be up there along with the other SS's, but then you look at Chevy's line up. How many "Z" cars are there in teh history of any of thoes cars. Any Impala Z34's? Any Cobalt Z24's? Any Malibu Z39's? Camaro and Corvette are the only cars that have or had a Z level car, and both were the race-ready versions.

notgetleft

01-18-2006, 09:57 AM

Some of the 3rd gen info being spread here is just plain wrong.

What is correct though is that the 1982 Z/28 (YES! it had a SPECIFIC Z/28 only suspension notgetleft), had 165hp. It was a different time. The badass - and it was - Mustang GT had 157 hp. The Corvette had 200.

Z28 did not come standard with the 165hp cease-fire, it came standard with the iron intake LG4 rated at 145hp. It should be common knowledge among fbody fans that making a majority of the thirdgen Z28/IROC cars come with wheezing ass engines is what killed their performance rep vs. the stang. From 1982-1989, Z28 only got you a base V8 standard

FYI, here's one source on engines: http://www.f-body.org/tech/3rd_gen.htm The thirdgen.org tech database is the same, as it was originally copied from f-body.org anyway.

As for suspensions, the fact that i owned 2 thirdgen z28s that did NOT have the top suspension is all the prooof i need. I really don't care if you say i'm wrong because i've seen Z28 and whatever the base V8 suspension was on the same RPO sticker twice. Considering you were dead wrong on the Z28 engines, might be time to do some research though.

jg95z28

01-18-2006, 10:26 AM

One other thing...when the decision is made to build this car, understand that not every model will come out right away. (think C6 Z06.....)
I can wait an additional 12-18 mos for my top dog Z/28. ;)

Z284ever

01-18-2006, 10:31 AM

Z28 did not come standard with the 165hp cease-fire, it came standard with the iron intake LG4 rated at 145hp. It should be common knowledge among fbody fans that making a majority of the thirdgen Z28/IROC cars come with wheezing ass engines is what killed their performance rep vs. the stang. From 1982-1989, Z28 only got you a base V8 standard

FYI, here's one source on engines: http://www.f-body.org/tech/3rd_gen.htm The thirdgen.org tech database is the same, as it was originally copied from f-body.org anyway.

As for suspensions, the fact that i owned 2 thirdgen z28s that did NOT have the top suspension is all the prooof i need. I really don't care if you say i'm wrong because i've seen Z28 and whatever the base V8 suspension was on the same RPO sticker twice. Considering you were dead wrong on the Z28 engines, might be time to do some research though.

I didn't say the LU5 was the base engine....

Also, you posted that the Z/28 had the EXACT same suspension as the base car. That's false. After 1985, the IROC-Z has some better chassis pieces, that's true...but the 3rd gen Z/28 never came with the same chassis tune as the base car.

Before 1985... base, F41, Berlinetta and Z/28 had specific chassis tuning. When the RS came out, it was tuned very similarly to the previous F41. 1991 and later, Z/28's essentially came with the former IROC-Z chassis pieces standard.

jg95z28

01-18-2006, 10:35 AM

CLEAN

01-18-2006, 12:09 PM

It keeps going...and going....

:D

5thgen69camaro

01-18-2006, 12:10 PM

Z/28Camaro4life

01-18-2006, 12:12 PM

How about this one, I love both Z28 and SS but it is true the the SS name is getting tarnished with cars like the current malibu SS, the impy's and monte's do have pep to them but the malibu :confused: . But anyway, whatever the top Camaro will be I WANT IT TO BE THE BEST CAMARO EVER AND A GT500 STOMPER!

turbo96z28

01-18-2006, 12:32 PM

It keeps going...and going....

:D

<waiting for picture of energizer bunny>

HTWLSS

01-18-2006, 01:04 PM

<waiting for picture of energizer bunny>

http://mcgeesauto.chirpthird.com/grphx-pics/thud.gif

RussStang

01-18-2006, 01:22 PM

Anyone think the LS7 should get the ZL1 designation

or would that be more acurately a 572?

Considering ZL1 is the car most comperable to Shelby the first time, thats what I think the LS7 should be going up against the supercharged small block

I don't think any production car will ever get any variation of the 572. That would make one hell of a ZL1 though (like John Moss's). I don't think too many people would complain about GM using the ZL1 badge with that monster engine in there.

RhinoSS

01-18-2006, 03:46 PM

http://mcgeesauto.chirpthird.com/grphx-pics/thud.gif

http://www.clicksmilies.com/s0105/aktion/action-smiley-041.gif

turbo96z28

01-18-2006, 08:05 PM

http://www.clicksmilies.com/s0105/aktion/action-smiley-041.gif

http://www.njfboa.org/forums/images/smilies/banghead.gif

Ray86IROC

01-18-2006, 08:59 PM

All I can say is you should have been there. We did not have video cameras back then. ***EDIT*** We did have wind up movie cameras, LOL ***EDIT*** I can hunt down my engine dyno sheet I imagine, the 302 made 418 horsepower or so. Not that it would stop the argument, you'd come up with some other lame assed angle to exploit.

I was there, I lived it, before you were even an itch in your daddy's britches. If you don't want to believe me, that's fine. I'm not going to waste whole hell of a lot of time trying to prove an ancient point to some kid on a message board, I've gotten to the point where life is too short.

I don't care if you were alive when Jesus was born, unless you and the other guy have a special definition of race ready that includes some kind of handicapping or limiting of what the 396 can have setup wise in order to allow the 302 and 396 to compete on level ground in some kind of racing class, this is utter and complete garbage.

The 302 was not magical, it had pretty good heads for a small block for the time, had a big fairly rowdy cam from the factory, good intake available, etc. But it absolutely pales in comparison to something like a built BBC with muuuuch better flowing rectangular port heads, significantly bigger cam, etc, etc. They're not even in the same league when both are truly built for max power. You could easily, easily surpass 500 hp with even a relatively mild built 396. True Chevy put some fairly tame 396s in cars that the 302 with some mild mods could probably compete with on the street (and I'm not putting down the 302...), but something like the L78 (my father purchased one new late in '67 BTW) in the Camaro SS was a excellent street setup and would eat the 302 Z/28s in a straight line with similar setups/mods between the two...

NO WAY on planet earth does a truly race ready 396 have even an inkling of trouble of with a similarly prepped 302. No way.

It's downright simple, engines are effectively airpumps and a big-block with rectangular port heads, even a "baby" 396 engine, has the potential to way way outflow the 302, especially with the technology used back then.

Hell the L78 had a FACTORY hp rating of 425hp in the Corvette (somehow it loses 50 hp going to the Chevelle and Camaro w/ no actual changes, good ole Chevy and it's ratings games), over the numbers you're claiming from your modded 302...

91Z28350

01-18-2006, 10:42 PM

I have posted this before. My father had a '69 l78-m22 SS Camaro, and he said Z/28's didn't stand a chance on the straights. Hell, he said that car would take out his 69 427/400-4m vette.

ZZMike

01-19-2006, 10:26 AM

I don't care if you were alive when Jesus was born, unless you and the other guy have a special definition of race ready that includes some kind of handicapping or limiting of what the 396 can have setup wise in order to allow the 302 and 396 to compete on level ground in some kind of racing class, this is utter and complete garbage.

Seriously, they were not much of a problem. They were so busy trying to get traction on the tires we had back then or just not as fast as you might imagine. I beat a very large share of them. Did I beat them all?? No, I never said I did. Did I race your dad?? Probably not, but I have to take your word that he even owned an L-78 (I'm sure google has pictures if you need to "prove" it). I raced many 396 Camaros and Chevelles on the street and on the strip and won; it happened, get over it. Where's Mr. Peabody and his wayback machine when I need it. And for the record, race ready means you back it off the trailer or drive it to the track and race it, when it was in the staging beams or at the stoplight, it was race ready.

One day, when you're much older, you'll be posting about how you beat LS-1s on occasion with your clapped out 94 Automatic LT-1 and people won't believe you, either. :p

HOTCIVIC

01-19-2006, 11:29 AM

RussStang

01-19-2006, 01:17 PM

And for the record, race ready means you back it off the trailer or drive it to the track and race it, when it was in the staging beams or at the stoplight, it was race ready.

Ok, this is where we misunderstood each other. Let me rephrase this. In fully built, completely worked over, competition drag race trim, the 396 will easily walk over a 302 that is also likewise fully prepped. Giving up almost 100 cubes to another motor is almost certainly a good way to get your ass kicked, especially when both car are naturally aspirated.

RussStang

01-19-2006, 01:18 PM

Yeah but the only reason he would beat an LS1 is if the LS1 spun. Doesn't mean the LT1 is the faster or more powerful car - he just beat the driver. Just like you beating the guys who had problems with traction back in the day. I've seen C5 Z06s run 14s before, while stock LS1s were running mid 13s. 20 years from now, would it be cool of those LS1 guys to go into a chat room and talk about how the new King of the Hill for Chevrolet should be the Camaro instead of the top of the line Vette "just because they used to beat up on Z06 Vettes back in the day"? No they just beat the driver, not the car.

Just my 2 cents.

Good example.

jg95z28

01-19-2006, 04:34 PM

Ok, this is where we misunderstood each other. Let me rephrase this. In fully built, completely worked over, competition drag race trim, the 396 will easily walk over a 302 that is also likewise fully prepped. Giving up almost 100 cubes to another motor is almost certainly a good way to get your ass kicked, especially when both car are naturally aspirated.

Sorry Russ, but you're wrong. In 1968 Dave Strickler won the NHRA Super Stock World Championship in a Z/28, besting many 396 SS Camaros.

Ray86IROC

01-19-2006, 10:44 PM

Seriously, they were not much of a problem. They were so busy trying to get traction on the tires we had back then or just not as fast as you might imagine. I beat a very large share of them. Did I beat them all?? No, I never said I did. Did I race your dad?? Probably not, but I have to take your word that he even owned an L-78 (I'm sure google has pictures if you need to "prove" it). I raced many 396 Camaros and Chevelles on the street and on the strip and won; it happened, get over it. Where's Mr. Peabody and his wayback machine when I need it. And for the record, race ready means you back it off the trailer or drive it to the track and race it, when it was in the staging beams or at the stoplight, it was race ready.

One day, when you're much older, you'll be posting about how you beat LS-1s on occasion with your clapped out 94 Automatic LT-1 and people won't believe you, either. :p

Give me a break, you more or less proved my point exactly with your example. You didn't say "I won a few races w/ my 302 against cars that should have beaten me" originally, you said something about the 302 being superior to 396s, thus including the L78s. The 302 is not making the power and couldn't truly compete all things being equal.

And I also made the statement that Chevy put out alot of tame 396 models, w/ peanut port heads and small cams which the 302 could probably compete well with on the street, especially with key mods to the Z/28.

Forgetting your particular Z/28 that I'm sure probably did beat some bigblock cars, how many Z/28s out back in the day got their plow cleaned on the street by SS Camaros and Chevelles with 396s? Is it your contention that it was the norm for Z/28s to be going around kicking 396 ass all over the place?

The idea that the 302 is superior to the 396 is garbage, and I don't care how many LS1s I may beat over the years I'll never be caught making a fool of myself claiming the LT1 was better mod for mod...

Sorry Russ, but you're wrong. In 1968 Dave Strickler won the NHRA Super Stock World Championship in a Z/28, besting many 396 SS Camaros.
Is it then your contention that this particular team/driver, wouldn't have been faster if they had chosen to slide a L78 or better yet a L87 I think it was (whatever the aluminum head version of that motor was, maybe L89 I don't remember) in place and do the R&D work to get the most out of that setup? Searching the net I've found claims that particular 302 made 456hp. Do you also contend that 456 hp (quite impressive for 302 cubic inches I might add) would out power even most 396s with similar setups?

How much did factory backing, who blueprinted and built the car/engine, a superior driver, and a excellently dialed in setup, etc have to do with this? Answer: ALOT, just like now... How many rules were bent and games played with the numbers and classes and sandbagging etc back then in competitive racing? ALOT.

This class allowed minimal actual mods, the chassis setup, blueprinting done on the motors etc was more important. That 302 broke all kinds of records and was sweet as hell. But it doesn't make the 302 superior to the 396...

The 302 with all things being equal is not going to beat a BBC IMO.

To bring the LT1 and LS1 example back into this I'm sure there are race teams w/ LT1s that would blow a whole heck of alot of teams' LS1s into the weeds, but we all know which is the truely superior engine setup, especially with mild mods on the street... Not a perfect example but you get the idea. The 302 was hot but it wasn't the king of the streets nor even close...

RussStang

01-19-2006, 10:45 PM

What are the parameters to run in the NHRA Super Stock class? More accurately, what were they back in 1968?

I still cannot see how if one guy builds a 396 to the limit it is going to go, using whatever heads, intake, cam, etc he is going to need to make the maximum power a 396 is ever going to make, that a 302 built similiarly will stand a chance. I still do not see it happening.

jg95z28

01-19-2006, 11:15 PM

Dave's 302 was just as fast as the 396s in the class.

RussStang

01-19-2006, 11:34 PM

That didn't answer my question at all. Do you know the parameters that must be met to be in that class? How are the engines required to be built, and are there different rules for different engine displacements?

There could be any number of reasons why the 302s run just as fast in that class, but in an all out hp motor build, I still have not be given any real reason to belive that the 302 could compete with a 396. The 302 sacrifices almost 100 cubes to the 396. Both engines are SBCs. What you can do to one, you can do to the other.

That would be like me saying that the 5.3 LS4 (325CID) could be built to run with the 7.0 LS7 (427CID). In an all out race build, where both engines are built for maximum power, its not gonna happen.

91Z28350

01-19-2006, 11:36 PM

Umm the 396 was a big block Russ.

Ray86IROC

01-19-2006, 11:37 PM

The 302 sacrifices almost 100 cubes to the 396. Both engines are SBCs. What you can do to one, you can do to the other.

Slight nitpick since I know what you meant, but being a BBC with far larger head port volumes, significantly larger valves, etc, you can do a do a heck of alot more w/ a 396 beyond just the cubic inches... There is way more potential for power with a BBC.

RussStang

01-19-2006, 11:39 PM

Umm the 396 was a big block Russ.

Whoops.

I still stand by what I said though, stupid mistake or not.

5thgen69camaro

01-20-2006, 02:47 AM

I agree COMPLETELY

The next SS should be a 454 or 502 Big Block with the solid rear and navigation Pace car

The Z28 should be the all out LS2 with the IRS Vette brakes and aluminum Drive Shaft.

The ZL1 would be the LS7 to go head to head with the Shelby

You cant argue with that. Thats the way it was then. Dont want a Big Block weighing down the front of your Camaro like the 396? Buy the High Output Z the way you had to origionally unless you bought the SS 350 Small block version.

jg95z28

01-20-2006, 03:09 AM

JS02

01-20-2006, 01:06 PM

RussStang

01-20-2006, 01:25 PM

Sorry, Russ I didn't answer your question, partially because I don't have all the answers, however my understanding is stock intake and carb, stock heads with no porting allowed. I don't believe there were separate rules for big blocks and small blocks. You have to keep in mind that a BBC is almost twice the weight of the 302 SBC, which puts out as much horsepower and revs much higher. (Don't believe the 290hp factory rating for the 302, it was at least 100hp more than that from the factory.)

Ok, so the motors are virtually stock in that class. I said when the two motors are built for maximum hp, the 302 won't stand a chance. Doesn't seems like they are "built" at all in that class, so it is a moot point to me.

I doubt the big block weight twice as much as the small block. Yes, it weighed more, but twice is a stretch. 100 cubes is a huge advantage.

I know the 290 rating was off, but there is no way to know what the motor actually made, because the only "proof" I have ever heard of is anecdotal evidence of people saying what a great motor it was. I didn't have to live through the years to know what sounds legitimate and what doesn't. Nature still operates the same now as it did then.

Z284ever

01-20-2006, 01:37 PM

100 cubes is a huge advantage.

Yes it is.

So is and extra 2,000+ RPM. Especially when 'factory stock' meant two Holleys on a crossram good for 1,200 CFM.

RussStang

01-20-2006, 01:45 PM

Ok, as I have stated, I have talked about maximum effort engines here, fully built for all out power, nowhere near resembling stock. I don't know how many times I am going to have to repeat that, but I am getting tired of posting in this thread. There is more potential in that 94 cubes.

How high do you think a fully built 302 is going to rev? I have watched a big block Chevy with a 4" inch stroke spin to 8k grand repeatedly with only forged I-Beam connecting rods. Better rods and bolts, and the thing could have spun higher. This was with pistons that were quite large as well.

soul strife

01-20-2006, 02:06 PM

I posted this else where but, I'm asking. Why can't Z28 be suspention and SS be a higher output motor? Just a thought. Why can't you have a Z28 SS? This might be bad logic but, I'm just thinking.

Chris 96 WS6

01-20-2006, 02:22 PM

I posted this else where but, I'm asking. Why can't Z28 be suspention and SS be a higher output motor? Just a thought. Why can't you have a Z28 SS? This might be bad logic but, I'm just thinking.

How many times have I already answered this in this thread?

Here's why not: Because how many people in today's market want a lot of HP and no handling or all handling and no umph?

The highest performing model needs to be THE HIGHEST PERFORMING MODEL in all respects.

Easy concept here: The model lineups and customer preferences of 35 years ago won't work today, PERIOD.

Ultra_Dog

01-20-2006, 02:28 PM

Lucky me...I have a 1996 Z28 SS. I can ride the fence all day long...

Of course, all of them are just marketing badges to persuade buyers to dispense with their cash. If GM could sell more by calling them TT or Y32, then that would be their new name/moniker.

So do you crack your eggs from the little end or the big end.

"Which two mighty Powers have, as I was going to tell you, been engaged in a most obstinate War for six and thirty Moons past. It began upon the following Occasion. It is allowed on all Hands, that the primitive way of breaking Eggs, before we eat them, was upon the larger End: But his present Majesty's Grand-father, while he was a Boy, going to eat an Egg, and breaking it according to the ancient Practice, happened to cut one of his Fingers. Whereupon the Emperor his Father published an Edict, commanding all his Subjects, upon great Penaltys, to break the smaller End of their Eggs. The People so highly resented this Law, that our Histories tell us there have been six Rebellions raised on that account; wherein one Emperor lost his Life, and another his Crown..." A Voyage to Lilliput, Ch 4, Gulliver's Travels.

96SSConv#2033

01-20-2006, 02:38 PM

How about Yenko as top dog?

jg95z28

01-20-2006, 02:45 PM

How about Yenko as top dog?

:rolleyes:

No. Yenkos were "dealer" cars from Yenko Chevrolet. Just as there were Bergers, Danas, Nickeys, Motions, etc.

soul strife

01-20-2006, 02:48 PM

How many times have I already answered this in this thread?

Here's why not: Because how many people in today's market want a lot of HP and no handling or all handling and no umph?

The highest performing model needs to be THE HIGHEST PERFORMING MODEL in all respects.

Easy concept here: The model lineups and customer preferences of 35 years ago won't work today, PERIOD.

Thanks for answering. I was wondering. I never said once that the model lineups and customer preferences of 35 years ago would work today. I'm just glad the Camaro is coming back. I will, however, say that cars are the most expensive Rigid product anyone can buy.
I guess I'm saying I don't care which is top dog. Just be happy it's coming back.

96SSConv#2033

01-20-2006, 02:50 PM

:rolleyes:

No. Yenkos were "dealer" cars from Yenko Chevrolet. Just as there were Bergers, Danas, Nickeys, Motions, etc.

Yeah, I know. I'm just tired of hearing about this and wanted to mix up the debate a little bit.

PS - SS is King!

5thgen69camaro

01-20-2006, 06:16 PM

As I recall super stock classes were factored by factory horsepower ratings. The 302 was rated at 290 hp so it was low. That's why it was such a dominant car in 1968. I have owned 2 68 Z28 cars and they are great cars. When I was in high school my neighbor purchased a 1967 Z28. It was very fast and did very well if it had low gears. My brother in law bought a new Z-28 and raced it a lot. He still recalls how how many races he won and how fast it was. He also recalls how his ass was handed to him bad by an L78 camaro. It would take an extremely well prepped Z28 of 68 or 69 vintage to keep up with an LS1 today. These cars are 14 second cars stock.

I thought the the Z28 was the coolest car built when it was new and I was in high school. It was great but not near as fast as many people would like to believe. The Z28 had a neat engine and 15 inch wheels. The rest of the parts were basically SS parts. They would beat some big block cars but could also be beat by other big block cars and even some small block cars like L79 327 nova's and corvettes.

97 SS

Youre still talking 1/4 mile. Thats fun and all but I am 65 miles from work not a 1/4 mile. I want the road racer G Machine M3 competition that I can occasionaly take to the dragstrip. I want to see a car that people set up for drifting. Im thinking go after the Z350 market with small block power and by the way a back seat and trunk. That is what I think of when I think Z28.

If I wanted an all out Drag car you would be right. Id put a big block low gears and drag shocks and call it an SS. Something that would be wound out at the end of the 1320 and would probably have to be a second car.

5thgen69camaro

01-20-2006, 06:31 PM

I posted this else where but, I'm asking. Why can't Z28 be suspention and SS be a higher output motor? Just a thought. Why can't you have a Z28 SS? This might be bad logic but, I'm just thinking.

SS is all out power 1/4 mile car regaurdless of handleing. Z28 is SCCA road racer small block with whatever ci SCCA would allow. I guess they saw LS1 as the SS motor of today in the Z28 road car?

Z28 Road Racer Car
SS Hot Rod Car almost Drag car

The SS Hot Rod is cool but if I had a choice Id pick the Z28 road racer...

90rocz

01-20-2006, 06:33 PM

For the 302 vs 396 debate...the 302 was a tricked out factory piece, some had to be produced so they could use it in the race series limited to 5.0 liters.
Don't even think of it in the same league as the 302 Ford, :no:
I love the 396's especially since my dad owned one and we raced it a lot, it had a crappy factory cam, worn out in like less than 6 months. Even the factory "hot" 327's could keep up with the 396's until about 100mph, I was there. Dad installed a Crane cam, tweaked the 850 Holley, truck clutched it, and added some REAL tires and THEN, could pull the front wheels up on a 5000+ rpm drop!
But a factory 325 or 375 396, would easily get trompped by the 302 HO. And yes, a 396 gives up 300 lbs weight easy, to the 302.
There is no substitute for cubic inches, providing similar "racing" pieces were used on both, they weren't.