A way to give Pontiac a GTO and a Firebird, and have pretty much no overlap!

I posted this in another thread....but I figured I would also give it it's own thread since it was off topic...

IMO Pontiac really does not need a "traditional" large RWD sedan (G8?).... now that GM is putting Pontiac and Buick in the same dealerships. Buick sells nothing but "Traditional" large sedans and will also have a large RWD sedan on the same platform anyway. So why not....instead of doing a G8, do a quad coupe full sized GTO in it's place. This would give Pontiac a completly unique car that will not steal sales from Buick, and maybe gain buyers looking for something a little different. If someone wants a traditional sedan with a little performance, that could be cheaply accomplished through a performance version of the Buick RWD sedan. This also assumes that the new G6 moves up in size with Malibu to fill the larger Grand Prix/Impala FWD void. (as currently planned)

Then, Since there are normally no Buick/Pontiac dealers that also sell Chevrolet or Cadillac, you could do a business case for a Camaro sized Firebird on Zeta. Maybe make it have an aggressive, but with a refined in your face slant. Offer more high end options from the Zeta parts bin than the Camaro, Maybe AWD and a HF V6 standard...and a turbo V6 or Northstar derivative on the highend. I see Firebird and Camaro kinda like the 350Z and G35...but with more differention because GM has a larger parts bin. All of this would definatly give the car a much different personality than the Camaro with not much investment. Since it will not be in the same dealership as Cadillac..and be smaller/cheaper than a CTS coupe...I can's see it taking any Caddy sales. I also seriously doubt many Caddy buyers would be cross shopping Pontiacs;)

Just an idea.

I concur, aslong as its agressive looking, t-top targa, Rear/awd, 6 speed I'm there.

Edit:COUPE

Why don't you just buy a next gen GTO, and pretend its a Firebird? :thumb:

:p

I dunno With Z284ever keep saying Quad coupe I'm getting freaked, anyone else?

Why don't you just buy a next gen GTO, and pretend its a Firebird? :thumb:

:p

why not buy a Cobalt and Pretend its a Camaro?

I absolutely LOATHE the idea of a GTO as a quad coupe.

I absolutely LOATHE the idea of a GTO as a quad coupe.

and people though a 4 door charger was bad...

If it has 4 door I'd rather it be a Gto than Firebird however.

I dunno With Z284ever keep saying Quad coupe I'm getting freaked, anyone else?

I dont even want to think about that

he's not the only 1,

http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/News/articleId=106630

All-New Pontiac GTO Due in Mid-2008
Date posted: 07-28-2005

DETROIT — An all-new Pontiac GTO, one with a more eye-catching exterior and possibly a four-door "quad coupe" design, is due to go into production in mid-2008, Inside Line has learned\

Edit: this mean camaro mid 08?

why not buy a Cobalt and Pretend its a Camaro?

:rolleyes:
You do realize the GTO will share a parts bin the the Camaro. The Cobalt won't share much more than a Bowtie on the grill with the Camaro...

:rolleyes:
You do realize the GTO will share a parts bin the the Camaro. The Cobalt won't share much more than a Bowtie on the grill with the Camaro...

thats my point it shouldn't GTo=Sedan size, muscle car, Firebird 2+2 pony car. totally different.

I dunno With Z284ever keep saying Quad coupe I'm getting freaked, anyone else?


I don't like it one bit, I say we tar and feather him for the thought...... :death:

he's not the only 1,

http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/News/articleId=106630

All-New Pontiac GTO Due in Mid-2008
Date posted: 07-28-2005

DETROIT — An all-new Pontiac GTO, one with a more eye-catching exterior and possibly a four-door "quad coupe" design, is due to go into production in mid-2008, Inside Line has learned\

Edit: this mean camaro mid 08?


I've tried asking the same question about the Camaro.

Being it's off the same platform and we've seen "closer to production than you think" concepts for the Camaro and ZIP for the Goat, I figured it might even be closer that the Goat to production.

but about the quad coupe...... hopefully if it comes out, it will only be a concept.




To look into it with a little more depth...

Camaro is killed off in 2002, cries are heard around the world.

GTO is launched in 04, ridiculed for it's high price, lack of heritage and BLAND STYLE Sales are dismall.

Camaro Concept gets shown and people cry for joy.
People are sending money to GM to build it.
GM says "IF if goes into production, it will be as an 09" three years off

GTO is slated to go into production, and rumored to have a quad coupe design, to be out before Camaro.


So they have already decided on doing the GTO. They may even make it as a quad coupe..... Something I can tell you right now, I will never buy.

But they have not decided on the Camaro, to be based off the GTO and which will sell at least 125-150k in it's first year.

And you guys keep telling me to keep the faith. I will for the Camaro, but will it (the camaro) be at the expense of the GTO?



Are they deliberately moving it out of Competition with the Camaro? How about moving it upclass..... oh yeah it already is.

If GM thought people bitched about bland style on a gto, just imagine what 4 doors would do. they can't seriously be considering it. can they?

The quad coupe GTO design shown to journalists was said to be much more aggressive than the current GTO and had a very coupe like profile. If done right...I would not be against it. Has anyone seen how rediculous it is to get into a current GTO's rear seat?

Remember the original Charger concept everyone loved was a quad coupe too...

http://www.dodge.com/dodge_life/past_and_future/concept_cars/img/charger.jpg

I really liked the styling of that concept, but I still bitched about 4 doors, But maybe I was alone:confused:

wont lie... that is a sexy quad coupe... looks just like a 2 door, just 2 small doors instead 1 HUGE one... hah

cory

GTO is launched in 04, ridiculed for it's high price, lack of heritage and BLAND STYLE Sales are dismall.

Wrong on price and sales, ands styling is a subjective thing.

Sales are exactly where GM wanted them to be. If sales were so horrible why was the GTO removed from Employee pricing, when it Employee Pricing was extended?

As for the price, what would you suggest the price be? Do keep in mind the 2002 SS, and WS6 cars were priced higher than the GTO is in 2006 if you got it optioned well enough. IMHO, there is a ton of car there for $33,000 when looking at the GTO.

As for styling... For everyone that says that the style is too boring there is just as many that would think the WS6 T/A was way too overdone.

Let me know about what you're thinking a fair price would be, keep in mind the competition, and real world factors. :thumb:

I dunno With Z284ever keep saying Quad coupe I'm getting freaked, anyone else?

Don't get freaked out, but understand that a next gen GTO is in a tough business situation. Before Zeta was cancelled last year, the GTO business case was no sweat. It would simply piggyback off the "Chevy coupe".

But when GM decided that the "Chevy Coupe" should actually be a Mustang competitor, (Camaro), the changes in the original architecture left the larger GTO without a business case.

So here we are....

BTW, the new smaller Camaro is projected to sell at maybe 50% greater volume than was projected for the larger "Chevy Coupe" and GTO combined.

I personally wouldn't mind a quad coupe Firebird if it looked sporty and it meant that I could actually open my door while parked next to someone. GTO would make more sense as a quad coupe than Firebird, however.

A 4 door GTO? I hope not. They seemed not to give a hoot about what the GTO looked like when they introduced it, so why not screw over the GTO even more by making it a 4 door. :rolleyes:

what I want to know is which car this dude is Fighting for?


http://img42.imageshack.us/img42/3982/670009697es.jpg

scott?

what I want to know is which car this dude is Fighting for?



I think he's watching what happens with the Charger very carefully.

I think he's watching what happens with the Charger very carefully.


Well, I hope he notices that the Charger is not selling near as well as the 300....

And I hope he remembers that he has the Grand Prix name or they can use the G8 name that has been floating around to make a sporty sedan.

G8 with an LS2 and Awd would sell like Hotcakes.

Wrong on price and sales, ands styling is a subjective thing.

Sales are exactly where GM wanted them to be. If sales were so horrible why was the GTO removed from Employee pricing, when it Employee Pricing was extended?

As for the price, what would you suggest the price be? Do keep in mind the 2002 SS, and WS6 cars were priced higher than the GTO is in 2006 if you got it optioned well enough. IMHO, there is a ton of car there for $33,000 when looking at the GTO.

As for styling... For everyone that says that the style is too boring there is just as many that would think the WS6 T/A was way too overdone.

Let me know about what you're thinking a fair price would be, keep in mind the competition, and real world factors. :thumb:

well, I personally heard a lot of complaints about how expensive it is. and it's 35k. WHile that may have been equivalent to a loded 02 WS6, I was not i the market to buy a WS6 because it was so expensive. Get where I'm going with this?

I think they should have kept the 350hp version and priced it right at 29 in the begining. Then they should have intro-ed the 400 hp version for around 32-33.

And yes, sales did flounder in the begining. They picked up steam with the 05s but the 04s were available new very late into 05, as late as december from what I heard.

well, I personally heard a lot of complaints about how expensive it is. and it's 35k.

Nope... 2006 GTO starts at #31,990 MSRP.

http://www.pontiac.com/gto/index.jsp



WHile that may have been equivalent to a loded 02 WS6, I was not i the market to buy a WS6 because it was so expensive. Get where I'm going with this?

That is fair, but then realize the car is not marketed toward you... that doesn't make it a failure, though.

I think they should have kept the 350hp version and priced it right at 29 in the begining. Then they should have intro-ed the 400 hp version for around 32-33.


An interesting idea... I believe they did keep the LS1 around for Monaro, so I suppose it was possible... but, as you can tell by the lack of options (everything is basically standard), I think they were trying to keep the possible variations on this car to a minimum because of it having to be imported from half way around the world....

And yes, sales did flounder in the begining. They picked up steam with the 05s but the 04s were available new very late into 05, as late as december from what I heard.

This has been gone over a million times, but not a ton of people are wanting to pay $5-10k in dealer markup on any car, short of a newly intro'd Corvette or a supercar of some sorts...

Remember... even the 2004 GTO outsold the Mustang Mach I and Cobra.

If GM thought people bitched about bland style on a gto, just imagine what 4 doors would do. they can't seriously be considering it. can they?

The Charger was built as a four door or what ever you call it, and look how its done. No one complained about it not even Car and Driver but thats probley cause Mercades owns Chrysler. It might work after all think of it though they could build it like the Saturan's that had the one back door that opened backwards i thought it to be pretty cool.

tell me what you think:
build almost every rwd car on the zeta platform. ex: GTO, Camaro, Impala, G8, etc. give buick some muscle to play with say the GNX (fight lexus) and build it on the caddy cts platform along with most of the other buicks. this could give a lot of cars iterchagabilty making the production cheaper (impalas and camaros and gto's could be assembled in the same factory) but would still have good quality.

this could also be a farfected idea build the montecarlo and G6 with a smaller zeta and build with all wheel drive. take on the lancers and wrx's.

The quad coupe GTO design shown to journalists was said to be much more aggressive than the current GTO and had a very coupe like profile. If done right...I would not be against it. Has anyone seen how rediculous it is to get into a current GTO's rear seat?

Remember the original Charger concept everyone loved was a quad coupe too...

http://www.dodge.com/dodge_life/past_and_future/concept_cars/img/charger.jpg

I loved that concept, that should have been the charger. I would have bought one for sure.

The GTO has grown on me so much that I will buy one this year. I think it is the perfect car for someone that wants daily driver, rwd, fun to drive v8 car. :) I love the styling of the 05. It could be more aggrestive but for what it is I love it.

A 4 door GTO, I might be sold if it is styled and priced right but for now I'll take a the current 2 door version. :cool:

well, I personally heard a lot of complaints about how expensive it is.

Okay, then you ask those that are complaining the exact same question I posed to you. Why is it too expensive, and what would be a fair price considering what cars it goes head to head with.

Look at what GM is offering with the GTO package for that price. Take a look at the 3 series and the G35, and see if the car is a ripoff.

and it's 35k.
$35,000? Since when? With a mark up?

Then again, I guess I wouldn't have as much of an idea on price as you would. I've never shopped for, and/or bought a new GTO like you have... :thumb:

WHile that may have been equivalent to a loded 02 WS6, I was not i the market to buy a WS6 because it was so expensive. Get where I'm going with this?

So because you're not in the market, and may not be able to afford it, that means the GTO is overpriced and a failure? By that reasoning, Ferrari and Lamborgini better stop making cars. Because their whole lineup is a failure to me because I don't want their products because I don't see a day where I'll be able to afford one. See where I'm going with this?

And yes, sales did flounder in the begining. They picked up steam with the 05s but the 04s were available new very late into 05, as late as december from what I heard.

Yes sales lagged at first, but once dealers stopped playing games with the prices, the cars starting moving. That, once again, doesn't make the car a failure now. Sales are still were GM wants them to be. You can't expect much more than that.

Let's not forget the 04s also got off to a bad start because they were barely in dealer's showrooms in JANUARY of 04. Even beyond the mark-ups, pretty hard to sell cars that are coming out 4 months later than every other car of the same model year, especially when half the country doesn't usually buy RWD sports cars for the first few months they were in dealers.

This happened because apparently Oz uses a completely different business calendar that doesn't release the next year models in the middle of the current year

People also miss that detail when thinking / talking about the 05 / 06. GM purposely cut 05 production short to normalize the model years such that 06 GTOs hit the lots about the same time as every other 06 model. There are like 10 06 GTOs on my local dealer lot. Last december, there were ZERO 05s on that lot, i know, i kept checking their inventory to see how long they sat on the other GTO they tried to highball me on in october.

I am beginning to see alot more GTO's in my town of around 50k people now... At first only one Yellow one... now there are like 3 reds couple silvers and a black on top of that...

I think Pontiac could have both.


Here's how.

New Firebird (2 dr, RWD) that has modern styling, with a V6 engine & an optional V8, would the best option. The Base Price for the V6 model should be in 22-24K range, with the V8(likely 5.3L) model around 25-27K.

New GTO (2 dr, RWD) that is retro styled, with a large V8(6.2L - 425hp), and a base price around 32-35K.

Coupe means 2 doors. period!. If you want Pontiac to have a four door performance vehicle, fine, just don't call it GTO.

Is the GTO a coupe, or a 2 door sedan?

2 dr firebird
quad coupe gto

but we all know the 2 dr firebird isn't going to happen....

And Pontiac shouldn't build a GTO as a quad coupe.

If they can't built in the tradition of the classic GTO, then Pontiac should just let it die. The GTO needs to be done in a classic styling.

But the truth is Pontiac needs a good image car. Yes the Solstice, is a really good image for small car performance. Pontiac also needs another bigger performance car.

To that end, the GTO isn't a good seller, and hasn't been since the late '60s models. But Pontiac's best selling hi-performance sport coupe in History is the Pontiac Firebird. A new well styled Firebird, could give Pontiac good sales(at least 30-40,000 models per yr), and be good for it's performance image.

If they can't built in the tradition of the classic GTO, then Pontiac should just let it die. .

So what's the "classic GTO"?

A pricey, limited volume, 2+2 sedan?

Or a more affordable (with full spectrum of available options ), 5 or 6 passenger, midsized, coupe/hardtop/convertible, with a variety of drivetrains?

Or, should it be something different?

Before even dreaming of a new GTO or Firebird, I am just hoping for a new Grand Prix. Even that doesn't seem so certain anymore.

Before even dreaming of a new GTO or Firebird, I am just hoping for a new Grand Prix. Even that doesn't seem so certain anymore.

Pontiac in 36 months...

Count on all the G6 variants and Solstice. Between Vibe and Torrent, maybe one will be around.

By "classic" GTO, I mean a hi-powered V8, 2+2, 2 door RWD coupe/convertible.

This is basically what every GTO has been from the original '64 to the present model. True, price and value usually equal amount of sales. And even the '05/'06 GTO is a fairly good performance value for the price.

By "classic" GTO, I mean a hi-powered V8, 2+2, 2 door RWD coupe/convertible.

This is basically what every GTO has been from the original '64 to the present model. True, price and value usually equal amount of sales. And even the '05/'06 GTO is a fairly good performance value for the price.

Charlie will be very quick to point out that classic GTO's were not 2+2 coupes and convertibles... they had room for 3 in the back.... and he is right.

While it doesn't matter a whole lot to me, it is really a sticking point with him for his situation.

I am rather indifferent to it myself, but if I had control of the project, I do feel that GTO would be best served with seating for 3 in the back....

The majority of Classic GTO's were 2 door coupes. A few were optioned as 2 door Sedans. My 67 GTO is a 2 door Sedan not a coupe. There is a differences. GTO's were also available as convertibles Darth Xed.

2 door GTO sedan.
http://www.pysales.com/images/67gtopyblk.jpg

2 door GTO coupe.
http://www.classicsandmore.com/cars/67%20GTO%20storefront.JPG

GTO convertible.
http://montesanoenterprises.com/a167.jpg

And the fact that the new GTO is a 2+2 and the classic GTO's could seat 3 people in the back is just splitting hairs.

The majority of Classic GTO's were 2 door coupes. A few were optioned as 2 door Sedans. My 67 GTO is a 2 door Sedan not a coupe. There is a differences. GTO's were also available as convertibles Darth Xed.

Yes, I was aware of the different configurations...




And the fact that the new GTO is a 2+2 and the classic GTO's could seat 3 people in the back is just splitting hairs.

I agree...... I do not feel that the GTO being a 2+2 automatically makes it unworthy of the GTO name... far from it. However, I will say that I think 3-place rear seating fits very well into the GTO formula, and I would perfer it, though it is by no means a deal breaker (as evidenced by me having an 04 GTO....)

And the fact that the new GTO is a 2+2 and the classic GTO's could seat 3 people in the back is just splitting hairs.

Well, it bugs me Niki. And I think it's an important component to have in a successful recipe, should we get a new GTO.

I understand why this is in the current car - it being a stopgap product. It just burns me when people say a 2+2 RWD IS GTO's heritage.

I don't honestly don't understand this hangup with 3 people in the back seat or 2.

The next GTO's success, if there is one will not hinge on whether it seats 3 or 2 people in the back seat IMO.

I don't honestly don't understand this hangup with 3 people in the back seat or 2.

The next GTO's success, if there is one will not hinge on whether it seats 3 or 2 people in the back seat IMO.


I think the advantage of making a 3-place rear seat is that it opens the car up to be used as a more practical daily driver for a lot of people... especially those with a few kids.

Again, I agree that I don't think it is essential to GTO success... but I think it could help, and it will help seperate the car from Camaro even further.

The big thing I don't understand from Charlie's past arguements is that he is basically saying that he would buy a GTO if it had 3-place rear seating to meet his needs... but , at the same time, he doesn't have any qualms about buying a future Camaro which will undoubtedly be a 2+2... that is the part where I get lost..... unless the GTO is to be a daliy driver, and the Camaro is to be a weekend car or something like that.

Found this news also. Hope it's not a repost.

From the Cleveland Plain Dealer...

New GTO coming around the bend,Wednesday, March 01, 2006
Joshua Dowling, Special to The Plain Dealer

Geneva, Switzerland- The Pontiac GTO isn't dead after all, says a top General Motors Corp. executive, who also hinted there might be a new ultra-fast Corvette coming. The current GTO will be phased out at the end of this year, but an all-new model is expected to return at the end of 2008 as a 2009 model, said Bob Lutz, who heads GM's global vehicle development.

In an interview at the international auto show in Geneva, Switzerland, Lutz also suggested an even more powerful version of the Corvette might be on the way. Industry insiders have talked about a "Blue Devil" Corvette that would be more powerful than the 505-horsepower Z06 that is currently the fastest Corvette. Lutz stopped short of confirming that, saying: "There will be something special for the Corvette soon." When "Blue Devil" was mentioned, he simply smiled.

The GTO, however, is definitely on the way. Last year, it appeared that GM had canceled any future GTOs as part of its efforts to reduce costs. And a Pontiac spokesman confirmed this year that the last GTOs would be sold this summer because the model wouldn't meet a new airbag standard taking effect in the fall. The spokesman said that the automaker would like to have another GTO but that there was nothing to announce.

But in the interview Tuesday, Lutz said the GTO plans were just off the shelf for a few months and he always wanted a new version. The new GTO might be built in North America, particularly if the Chevrolet Camaro concept gets the go-ahead for production, he said. Both the Pontiac GTO and Camaro could be based on GM's Zeta mechanical underpinnings, which are being developed by the company's Australian outpost, Holden, Lutz said.

With the current strength of the Australian dollar and the recent free-trade agreement between Australia and the United States, it would be more feasible to build the GTO in North America and export a version called the Holden Monaro to Australia, he said. The GTO, which is based on the Monaro, has been built in Australia and shipped to America.
Dowling is motoring editor of the Sydney Morning Herald.

I think the advantage of making a 3-place rear seat is that it opens the car up to be used as a more practical daily driver for a lot of people... especially those with a few kids.

.

Yup.

That's kind of the whole point of a GTO. Otherwise, might as well get a Corvette.

GTO would be more pratical and conservatively styled.. be alot more refined. Nobody will whine that its too wide to park or you have to crawl in and out...and the rearseats will be actually usuable.

While the Firebird will be very aggressively styled (like the Camaro Concept), a little impratical for daily use (low roofline, aggresive windshield rake, wide body, long doors, styling cues for the sake of styling and performance), a little cruder(as in more aggressive suspension tune, maybe not quite as a fancy interior), much wider tires, wide body with flares and more aggressive tune.

Ditto between the Camaro and Monte Carlo (assuming that goes RWD)

Corvette is the purposefully lean and mean athletic machine.

Thats the way I would do it.