Production numbers needed to be profitable as stated by Lutz

- Mr. Lutz noted that the Camaro would need to sell about 165,000 vehicles for it to be profitable and justifiable for the company. (posted on C&G)

That is a very large number seeing as the last tme a Camaro sold in those numbers was early to mid 80's.
EDIT: 1986 with 192,219

Is this possible?

A Year?!??

Um......maybe?

For reference, Ford sold 160,975 Mustangs in 2005.

165k vehicles per year will be a pretty damn steep hill to climb - if that is what Lutz meant.

That would mean it would need to be sold with a V6 alongside the V8(s).

As much as I'd like to, I'm not seeing 165k units a year, I mean the stang is a huge hit and as noted it's barely there... They're not even going to sell many more Cobalts than that a year are they?

Sure hope they don't lay this great concept on us and then not make a production car. Sorry but I'll make it a point to buy a new Mustang just to spite them if that's the case...

Sorry but I'll make it a point to buy a new Mustang just to spite them if that's the case...

Same here..

If the mustang which everyone leg humps with ZERO competition in 05 can't sell the number he wants then there is NO way that number will be met when you are dividing sales between mustang/camaro/challenger.
Hope that number posted is bogus info.

That's funny, I didn't hear him say that, but he had a ton of mics jammed in his face after the unveil.

I hope that includes the other Chevy RWD Sedan that will be built along side it

That is just about impossible for sales in one year.

I think it is 165,000 total......or maybe 165,000 a year for Zeta

as long as GM offers a V6 option as well as the SS and Z/28 options i see it topping 100k cars, maybe even 150k, but more than that is doubtful. there simply isn't enough people in the world that will pick the camaro when there will now be 5 (or more) different (high hp) RWD V8 cars.

I think there needs to be plenty of different V6 options and maybe even special editions of them.

The base model would have to be reeaal .... lousey really. lol

Base, base, base model. lol Like $17K.

The base model would have to be reeaal .... lousey really. lol

Base, base, base model. lol Like $17K.
how about $19k flat?

I bet that would be a big help.

Look at HHR....

I really don't see it outselling the Mustang? Maybe matching Mutang or Eclipse sales, or G35 coupe or 350 Z - but not dramatically exceeding them. I'm throwing those out there because they're all more or less in the same market segment - and the segment only has so many buyers to go around.

OTOH, the segment COULD be ready to grow - as a motoring public that traded sports cars for SUVs in the 90s swings back the other way realizing that they don't really need an SUV and a sports car gets better mpg in addition to handling and performing in a different league. IF that happens, the segment gets larger, and I could see a return to late 70s - mid 80s sales numbers.

I hope that's not true. Not a chance in hell they'd sell 165,000 Camaros a year.

It's gonna be hard enough as it is to get this Camaro to sell. The 4th gens didn't sell all that well, and at that time the Mustang wasn't nearly as popular as it is now. It would probably help that there wouldn't be a Firebird along side of it, but to sell 165,000 a year with the Mustang being as popular as it is right now is just absurd.

GM's only chance is to severely undercut the Stang on price, especially on the V6 models, which is where they make their money. I'd like to see a V6-model RS with around 250HP, power everything, leather, etc...for under $20k. They do that, they'll sell like hotcakes.

V6 and V8. It has to compete with other cars. It has to draw both Camaro crowds and the bmw ,audi type crowds and than it can reach 165000 units. Has to be the best of both worlds to sell. Definitley have to reach out.

I hope that's not true. Not a chance in hell they'd sell 165,000 Camaros a year.

It's gonna be hard enough as it is to get this Camaro to sell. The 4th gens didn't sell all that well, and at that time the Mustang wasn't nearly as popular as it is now. It would probably help that there wouldn't be a Firebird along side of it, but to sell 165,000 a year with the Mustang being as popular as it is right now is just absurd.

GM's only chance is to severely undercut the Stang on price, especially on the V6 models, which is where they make their money. I'd like to see a V6-model RS with around 250HP, power everything, leather, etc...for under $20k. They do that, they'll sell like hotcakes.

lol that wont happen...even if they could get the price that low...just look at the 4th gens more power and same price as mustang yet...they didnt sell well at all

lol that wont happen...even if they could get the price that low...just look at the 4th gens more power and same price as mustang yet...they didnt sell well at all
that was due to a lack of advertising. also the plant in canada was not in proper porportion to the amount of cars beign demanded. aka, plant was too big and too costly for only making 50k-75k cars a year. employying all those people with too high of wages for something a highschool dropout could do prbly also made it not worth it.

John McElroy seems to think pricing would start at "about $22,000" which is pretty impressive. The sales figures I believe are some pretty steep numbers as well. Myself and the gentleman that asked (I was right behind him) both looked at each other and said, "DAMN!"

that wont happen...even if they could get the price that low...just look at the 4th gens more power and same price as mustang yet...they didnt sell well at all


How do you figure. The last few years of the Fbody, you couldn't buy a v6 Fbody for less than 20K,more like 21-23K, the mustang was 15-18K. Chevy will need to make the camaro cheaper if they want it to sell.

V6=$18K
Mid V8=$22K
High V8=$28K

The v6 would need to have a base with NO power windows, NO power Door locks, not all this crap and extras they throw in to boost the price.

How do you figure. The last few years of the Fbody, you couldn't buy a v6 Fbody for less than 20K,more like 21-23K, the mustang was 15-18K. Chevy will need to make the camaro cheaper if they want it to sell.

V6=$18K
Mid V8=$22K
High V8=$28K

The v6 would need to have a base with NO power windows, NO power Door locks, not all this crap and extras they throw in to boost the price.

lol those v8 prices couldnt be done with the ls1 what makes u think it could be done with a new car and an ls2?

I don't buy the 165,000 number. If you download the Fastlane video podcast you'll hear Bob Lutz saying the business case for the Camaro would require 100,000 to 150,000 in sales for it to be viable. He might have been talking about 165,000 to make the concept as-is profitable, but he indicated that some changes would have to be made to the interior.

In the video blog Lutz said a V6 base would be around 20K (though I think they could get s tripped down model built fro cheaper) and the high-end V8 versions (he used plural) would be 30K.

- Mr. Lutz noted that the Camaro would need to sell about 165,000 vehicles for it to be profitable and justifiable for the company. (posted on C&G)

That is a very large number seeing as the last tme a Camaro sold in those numbers was early to mid 80's.
EDIT: 1986 with 192,219

Is this possible?

If that is one of the criteria for the 5th Gen to get a green light, I honestly don't see the car going into production. That is a really lofty goal....

I can see Camaro selling half of that, but no more than 90k a year, Bob must have been talking about all of Zeta

I don't buy the 165,000 number. If you download the Fastlane video podcast you'll hear Bob Lutz saying the business case for the Camaro would require 100,000 to 150,000 in sales for it to be viable. He might have been talking about 165,000 to make the concept as-is profitable, but he indicated that some changes would have to be made to the interior.

In the video blog Lutz said a V6 base would be around 20K (though I think they could get s tripped down model built fro cheaper) and the high-end V8 versions (he used plural) would be 30K.

Video blog? Where at?

I wonder if this goal means that the Camaro does indeed have it's own chassis?

If that is one of the criteria for the 5th Gen to get a green light, I honestly don't see the car going into production. That is a really lofty goal....

I think Im gonna cry. :cry:

Video blog? Where at?

I wonder if this goal means that the Camaro does indeed have it's own chassis?

Its going to be on a global chassis....Zeta....I really dont think that 165k # is just Camaro....think buick and pontiac

There is no way the Camaro can sell this many units. There is simply too much competition in this already-too-small segement now.

Let's hope that the 165k figure is not what just the Camaro has to sell to be profitable and to make a case to be produced.

lol those v8 prices couldnt be done with the ls1 what makes u think it could be done with a new car and an ls2?

I picked up my '02 SS off the showroom floor with $24k including sales tax. I had them order it in for me, and I was there on the day of delivery.

I've seen many people pick up brand new Z/28's for $21 to $22. Don't say it can't be done. I did it.

Its going to be on a global chassis....Zeta....I really dont think that 165k # is just Camaro....think buick and pontiac
Do you think they really have any plans for a fully independant RWD vehicle?
I just can't see Buick producing something like that... but I sure hope they prove me wrong.

Here is the copy of the Yahoo article where the 165K number came from

DETROIT (Reuters) - General Motors Corp. (NYSE:GM - news) on Monday showed off a Chevrolet Camaro prototype inspired by the 1969 version of the legendary muscle car to try to rev up demand for its return.

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Chevrolet had been widely expected to unveil the Camaro concept car at the North American International Auto Show in Detroit, a day after DaimlerChrysler's (DCXGn.DE) (NYSE:DCX - news) U.S. division rolled out a version of the rival Dodge Challenger.

Many expect Chrysler and Chevrolet to put the Challenger and Camaro into production, given Ford Motor Co.'s (NYSE:F - news) success with its redesigned version of the original 1960s muscle car, the Mustang.

Executives at GM, the world's largest automaker, cited fans' intense interest surrounding the seven-month development effort behind the 400-horsepower concept car as an indication of potential demand from buyers.

But they said the company, which has been losing money and market share to rivals, had not yet decided whether to begin making the new Camaro. That production decision would hinge in part on the excitement generated by the new design, Bob Lutz, vice chairman of products, told reporters.

GM estimated 100,000 fans watched the Detroit unveiling via Webcast. It invited another 250 enthusiasts to watch in person. "It's like a cult out there," Lutz said of the Camaro fan base.

Restored, first-generation Camaros can fetch between $35,000 and $200,000, said Ed Welburn, vice president of global design for GM, whose own 1969 Camaro provided the launch pad for the rear-wheel drive concept design.

Lutz said GM could make the new Camaro profitably if it could sell between 150,000 and 160,000 of the cars each year.

A former Ford and Chrysler executive who came to GM four years ago, Lutz said U.S. automakers needed to roll out models with better fuel-efficiency and hybrid engines while still offering performance cars like the Camaro.

"It's two markets," Lutz said. "The whole country is schizophrenic."

As an example of the split in consumer thinking, Lutz said some Hollywood celebrities own both a Lamborghini Gallardo luxury sports car and a Toyota (7203.T) Prius hybrid.

Lutz said GM could make the new Camaro profitably if it could sell between 150,000 and 160,000 of the cars each year.


if you've seen the walk around video, he says between 100K and 150K. and i'd take a video of him saying it over a yahoo article.

I read that in my paper today, but I haven't seen his actual quote. I've GOT to think that is a mis-print by whoever wrote that.

Here are some earlier production figures by year:
1967 220,917
1968 235,151
1969* 243,095
1970.5 124,889
1971 114,643
1972 68,656 (strike 172 days)
1973 96,756
1974 151,008
1975 145,789
1976 182,981
1977 218,854
1978 272,633
*Includes 1970 carryover of 1969 design.

The Camaro must have a v6 model as an entry model. Many would fall in love with this car just on looks. They wouldn't care if a briggs & stratton was under the hood. This would enable many more people the opportunity to purchase a Camaro due to the lower cost compared to a SS OR Z28 with the V8 HIGH H.P. Engines.

I need to know how many 2002 anniversary SS Convertibles "red with silver stripes" were built with the automatic transmissiom?

A Firebird version might help.

Here are some earlier production figures by year:
1967 220,917
1968 235,151
1969* 243,095
1970.5 124,889
1971 114,643
1972 68,656 (strike 172 days)
1973 96,756
1974 151,008
1975 145,789
1976 182,981
1977 218,854
1978 272,633
*Includes 1970 carryover of 1969 design.

The Camaro must have a v6 model as an entry model. Many would fall in love with this car just on looks. They wouldn't care if a briggs & stratton was under the hood. This would enable many more people the opportunity to purchase a Camaro due to the lower cost compared to a SS OR Z28 with the V8 HIGH H.P. Engines.

The demand for the 69 was the reason for that carry over. It was 5-6 mo into 70 year. but look at the 71 split bumper year which is same design as 70 only with 6 mo more production but less sales. The impact standards changed while they were on strike. When they returned to work the cars on the line were scraped. Do you have 72 and 73 production numbers reversed?

Camaro wont be competing with Firebird for the first time so maybe that will mean higher sales. Also what if the car sells globally? I really dont think those numbers include exported camaros...[/

A Firebird version might help.

No it would just take money away from the Camaro development and delay the production date

Do you think they really have any plans for a fully independant RWD vehicle?
I just can't see Buick producing something like that... but I sure hope they prove me wrong.


All three brands need a new age RWD chassis. GM needs something to put the DCX LX platform cars in thier place. Cars like the 300 that have attitude..."Yeah I look different.....@#$% off" kinda attitude. Chevy NEEDS Camaro right now, Buick NEEDS a killer RWD car to get some freakin attention (I like the idea of a Grand National), Pontiac needs a diversified but exciting portfolio of rwd cars, from luxurious GTO, to irresponsibly cool Trans Am, to the big hit Solstice.

If the vehicles on Zeta are stunning, impressive, downright awesome cars, we could see a huge turnaround at GM. Think DCX new cars, really got them back on the up and up.

No it would just take money away from the Camaro development and delay the production dateSure it would take some resources way from the Camaro. But how much longer would it take to develop a Firebird that's cosmetically similar to the Camaro, but easy enough to differentiate... like some of the Photoshopped versions that have been posted on this board?

There's a reason auto manufacturers make "corporate cousins", to maximize sales without all the extra re-tooling that a truly unique model would require. I think it could only help, if not immediately, then in the long run.

Plus, the Firebird name has a high recognition factor... not to mention somewhat of a cult following (though I'm not saying it's as big as the Camaro's).

I'd definitely prefer the Camaro instead, but I think GM may be shooting themseves in the foot by not making a 'bird version.

How do you figure. The last few years of the Fbody, you couldn't buy a v6 Fbody for less than 20K,more like 21-23K
Maybe they weren't stickered below 20K often but you could certainly buy them for less than that.

2000 Firebird (comes with some stuff that is not standard on the Camaro), 6 way power drivers seat, power windows/locks with remote entry, leather wrapped steering wheel/shifter/parking brake, monsoon sound system, automatic transmission, 3.42 rear axle ratio, limited slip rear differential

Paid $17,800.

- Mr. Lutz noted that the Camaro would need to sell about 165,000 vehicles for it to be profitable and justifiable for the company. (posted on C&G)

That is a very large number seeing as the last tme a Camaro sold in those numbers was early to mid 80's.
EDIT: 1986 with 192,219

Is this possible?

lutz has been quoted saying different things... one place he said around the same figures as the mustang... 150-160k...

he said at detriot after the concept was shown 100-150k units...

another place he said 150-200k...

but also take with a grain of salt he said kappa had to be 135k to be profitable...

In this latest interview, he said the goal would be between 100k and 150k, which is very do-able