Guess who I was standing next to at the unveil...

Csaba Csere from Car and Driver...

And, if I had a suitable mode of escape available, I would have been more than happy to choke that douche-bag out on the spot.

But alas, there was nothing handy.

Here's an example of this fool's utterances:

"Motorcycles have gotten lighter. Why haven't cars?"
http://www.caranddriver.com/article.asp?section_id=27&article_id=9981

Well, dumba$$, maybe it's because motorcycles don't have a half-billion new Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards to comply with every decade.





Note to Red:
Next year, please have a Z06 waiting outside running and I will ensure that this piece of jounalistic detritus never writes another lame-brained article about automobiles (a subject he knows precious little about) again...






***

I was by Flint. Boy is he iiiiiiiiinteresting! Csere came over and chatted it up for a bit too. But Flint is quite the character LOL

I was by Flint. Boy is he iiiiiiiiinteresting! Csere came over and chatted it up for a bit too. But Flint is quite the character LOL

Hey bro, a Z06 has two seats...

Next year we could off them both and be out of there like the wind!

Yeah he sucks. You should have pimp slapped him.

I'm not 100% sure; but I believe he was the dingbat who, in 1999, wrote this in the Car & Drivel review of the 1999 30th Edition Trans Am: "(whining about how gaudy he thought the car was) ...While driving the car, I wished I had a sign taped on the door saying - 'Not My Car!' " :mad:

Homicidal urges aside, did ya hear anything interesting from him.......?

Homicidal urges aside, did ya hear anything interesting from him.......?


Nope, but I did make some pointed comments about the general idiocy of the automotive press loud enough for him to hear.


"It could come fresh from GM with 600hp but some idiot from Car and Driver will probably pan it because of "Gotta Have It Factor."

Yeah, how DARE anyone complain about car weights! They SHOULD be going up and up and up, spiraling out of control, and anyone who suggests otherwise should be SHOT!

We should all be THRILLED at the prospect of a 3600+ lb. Camaro.

:rolleyes:

Bikes are lighter-weight because hard-core sportbike enthusiasts DEMAND light weight.

Car "enthusiasts", for the most part, only care about more power:mad:

Regs have something to do with weight, to be sure, but don't you think these new era "pony cars" being built on big, heavy, luxury car platforms might have *something* to do with their morbid obesity?

hey Pacer, you should have heard the fool on CNBC. here's a bit to get your blood pressure back up to it's normal level:

Her:
"Lets take the shot full and see what goes on here as we bring on the brand new Camaro. We'll let you listen to all the groovy music. I love this. The auto show is such a blast because they make such a big deal out of this, its great. (with a stupid smug laugh) The engine is reving, do you hear that? (hahaha) Oh wow. my. That looks different. It doesnt look like a Camaro to me. Doesnt look like the old Camaro."

Him:
"Which is probably the point."

Him:
"If you believe the stats on that car, that is a very fast car. It has a very big engine and it goes very fast. And thats the sort of thing that people get into. People who want to go drive around like lunatics, thats a good car to get into and drive like a lunatic."

Her:
"look at that grill. That grill is slightly reminicent of the Chrysler that has become so popular with the younger croud. Although the grill is bigger on the relatively new Chrysler, that for example, Snoop Dogg loves to drive that he was in the commercials with Dieter Zechle"


Now this was from earlier when they were just discussing GM and Camaro...

Her:
"People want to see a grreat design, and they were able at least on the Ford side with the PT cruiser, to come out with that and that sort of had a retro look to it."

Yeah, how DARE anyone complain about car weights! They SHOULD be going up and up and up, spiraling out of control, and anyone who suggests otherwise should be SHOT!

If someone is going to complain about weight, then that's fine, just don't be an ignorant jackass by making a comparison with a mode of transportation that is wholly different than a car.


Bikes are lighter-weight because hard-core sportbike enthusiasts DEMAND light weight.

Being the local speed-bike freak and car enthusiast, I can tell you beyond a shadow of a doubt that while weight is a huge issue in sportbike design, it is not the only issue. For the last 6 years, the world's fastest and quickest production motorcycle tipped the scales at 478 pounds DRY.

Make no mistake though, weight is also a HUGE issue in car design - but the comparison falls flat when you take a single purpose repli-racer motorcycle and compare it to a car that performs far more functions than just going fast, like Camaro.

Camaro is not a dedicated road racing machine.

A Corvette Z06 is.

The Suzuki GSXR-1000 and the Z06 are equivalent engineering statements.

Camaro, on the other hand, is better compared with a sport-touring platform - and let me tell you brother, the 1100 Katanas and Bandit 1200's and Hayabusas of this world ARE NOT ultra-light like the GSXR's are.

They serve different purposes, and are designed differently because of it.

If you want the attention to detail paid to every ounce at the expense of the rest of the features that make Camaro what it is (a bitchin' radio, comfy seats, A/C, etc...) then shut yer trap and buy a Z06. At that point you can rip any and every feature associated with comfort out of it and get your wish.

Camaros ARE NOT and HAVE NEVER BEEN ultra-performance cars. They're fast, they're comfy, and they're stylish - but if you want to win road-course races, buy a Corvette. My buddy Chuck Curran wins them right and left... and he drives a Z06.

BTW - betcha a 2006 Z06 is lighter than a fully optioned 427 cubic inch mid-year or early C3.



Regs have something to do with weight, to be sure, but don't you think these new era "pony cars" being built on big, heavy, luxury car platforms might have *something* to do with their morbid obesity?

Not really. Those platforms are big and heavy specifically because of the added bulk associated with safety and items.

A full-size mid-1970's luxury car would have few problems clocking in at OVER 2 tons. For comparison, please consider that a mid-1970's Chevrolet Caprice was technically a MID-SIZE and NOT considered a FULL-SIZE.

You want big? Try a Fleetwood on for size. They came standard with anchors and foghorns.

Further, motorcycles do not have side impact beams, safety cages, 5 mph bumpers, seat belts, 6 air bags, energy absorbing steering columns, 4-wheel multi-channel ABS, energy abrobing interior panels, etc... etc... etc...



Final note: +/- 50 lbs. means NOTHING compared to aerodynamics when motorcycles at +190mph are the issue. At those speeds, aero is EVERYTHING. Just ask those GSXR-1000, R1, ZX-10R, ZX-12R riders why they keep getting passed by Hayabusas up top.

Being the local speed-bike freak and car enthusiast, I can tell you beyond a shadow of a doubt that while weight is a huge issue in sportbike design, it is not the only issue. For the last 6 years, the world's fastest and quickest production motorcycle tipped the scales at 478 pounds DRY.[QUOTE]

Hayabusa is quickest? Only in a straight line, and then only *BARELY*. A modern 600 would take it on any road course.

[QUOTE]Camaro is not a dedicated road racing machine.
agreed

A Corvette Z06 is.
No, it isn't either. A Formula Ford is a dedicated road-racing machine. Z06 is a somewhat road-course capable ROAD CAR.

Camaro, on the other hand, is better compared with a sport-touring platform - and let me tell you brother, the 1100 Katanas and Bandit 1200's and Hayabusas of this world ARE NOT ultra-light like the GSXR's are.

I'd rather the Camaro be more of an Aprilia Tuono than a (cough, cough) Katana (ewwwww!), or Bandit even.

If you want the attention to detail paid to every ounce at the expense of the rest of the features that make Camaro what it is (a bitchin' radio, comfy seats, A/C, etc...) then shut yer trap and buy a Z06.

Er, right. I'm *thinking* of a ~$30k new car, so of course I can easily just get a $65k Z06, no prob!

Camaros ARE NOT and HAVE NEVER BEEN ultra-performance cars. They're fast, they're comfy, and they're stylish - but if you want to win road-course races, buy a Corvette. My buddy Chuck Curran wins them right and left... and he drives a Z06.

Comfy?! FWIW, the Z28 *should* be a capable road-course burner, not just a 1/4-horse. Ultra-high performance I don't require, but I do NOT want an overweight scrunched-down 2+2 luxury sedan!

BTW - betcha a 2006 Z06 is lighter than a fully optioned 427 cubic inch mid-year or early C3.

EXACTLY! That's why I tire of hearing all the excuses made for an overweight new Camaro. It didn't (still doesn't?) *HAVE* to be that way!

Final note: +/- 50 lbs. means NOTHING compared to aerodynamics when motorcycles at +190mph are the issue. At those speeds, aero is EVERYTHING.

No kidding, but road course performance is more relevant to most hardcore sport riders. And at the road course, 10-15 lb. is significant.

At the road course, weight can actually be more important than power/weight! Which explains why my piddling 10:1 power/weight 240Z hangs with and BEATS Z06s, Vipers, 911 Turbos and the like.

Light weight rules!

New cars don't HAVE to be as heavy as they are!

GM, build me a 3200 lb. V8 Camaro or ELSE!

GM, build me a 3200 lb. V8 Camaro or ELSE!

You know that's about 30 lbs more than the base corvette weighs, right?

Not gonna happen.

wow, lots of love in here?

I really like C&D, and have been reading Csere for years - I'd very much enjoy to talk cars or go on a road trip with any of those guys. Excellent magazine, the best of them all in my opinion. And full of real car enthusiasts. OK, John Phillips does seem a little nutty. But still comes off as a hard core auto enthusiast.

I'm not 100% sure; but I believe he was the dingbat who, in 1999, wrote this in the Car & Drivel review of the 1999 30th Edition Trans Am: "(whining about how gaudy he thought the car was) ...While driving the car, I wished I had a sign taped on the door saying - 'Not My Car!' " :mad:
Yeah, I bought that one because the 99 30th T/A and the pewter 99 SS both appeared in the same article. I was very annoyed when I read it.

I'd rather read people who say what they honestly feel, whether I agree with it or not, instead of a bunch of industry cheerleading (which C and D does more than its fair share of anyway).

Hayabusa is quickest? Only in a straight line, and then only *BARELY*. A modern 600 would take it on any road course.

For a 6-year old +500 lbs. design to still be the quickest is saying something quite significant... and *BARELY* is good enough to put you on the podium, which is all that matters.

BTW - there's a whole new dose of a$$-whipping on it's way for 2007 when the mighty Busa is finally redesigned, and it's gonna get real ugly for the liter bikes.




No, it isn't either. A Formula Ford is a dedicated road-racing machine. Z06 is a somewhat road-course capable ROAD CAR.

Ok, Dr. Semantics, let me re-state:

"If you want a dedicated road-course car, a Z06 is the closest thing you can buy right now (you could get an Elise... but you'd need a crow bar to fit normal-sized humans into it).




I'd rather the Camaro be more of an Aprilia Tuono than a (cough, cough) Katana (ewwwww!), or Bandit even.

Slow, Italian, ugly and expensive is no way to go through life, son.



Er, right. I'm *thinking* of a ~$30k new car, so of course I can easily just get a $65k Z06, no prob!

Your pocketbook is not the ultimate constraint on the market.



Comfy?!

Yep, comfy.

When was the last time you put down 300 miles on a GSXR???

Better have a chiropractor riding b*tch or you'll crap standing up for a month.



FWIW, the Z28 *should* be a capable road-course burner, not just a 1/4-horse. Ultra-high performance I don't require, but I do NOT want an overweight scrunched-down 2+2 luxury sedan!

The Camaro will have a class dedicated to it's ilk in SCCA.

Heinricy seems to do just fine with his, and if it works for him I'm guessing that it'll work for you too.



No kidding, but road course performance is more relevant to most hardcore sport riders. And at the road course, 10-15 lb. is significant.

Oh b*llsh*t.

99.9999% of the squids who own the repli-racers will never come anywhere NEAR what those bikes are capable of in the 1/4 or on a roadcourse - particularly without killing themselves. Which is why a big, old fat guy like me on a Hayabusa can pass them so often at track days.



GM, build me a 3200 lb. V8 Camaro or ELSE!

1) Talking smack about what you're gonna buy based solely on weight for a car THAT IS STILL VAPORWARE in production form is flat-out silly.

2) Assuming that your perspective is a significant enough influence to force business decisions for a car based on a single sale to you is even sillier.

Finally, and take this to the bank:

Camaro will, as it always has been, be at the top of it's class in performance. Sure, there may be a tenth here or there from year to year, but if Chevrolet has ever proven anything it is that they DO NOT lose performance wars.

I can appreciate that 1/4 mile acceleration and top speed are your top two performance paramters. Can you appreciate that they're not so important to me?

For a 6-year old +500 lbs. design to still be the quickest is saying something quite significant... and *BARELY* is good enough to put you on the podium, which is all that matters.

In the quarter or in a top-speed contest.

BTW - there's a whole new dose of a$$-whipping on it's way for 2007 when the mighty Busa is finally redesigned, and it's gonna get real ugly for the liter bikes.

I think you're a lot more worried about literbikes at the 1/4 than they're worried about 'busas at the road course.

Ok, Dr. Semantics, let me re-state:
"If you want a dedicated road-course car, a Z06 is the closest thing you can buy right now (you could get an Elise... but you'd need a crow bar to fit normal-sized humans into it).

Agreed:D

Slow, Italian, ugly and expensive is no way to go through life, son.

Heh heh, I'm doin' fine! I got mine for $9k w/ 3k on the clock.
Not everybody's cup o' tea, but it is close to being mine:)

Son.:p


Your pocketbook is not the ultimate constraint on the market.
You told me to shut my trap and buy a Z06. I'm telling you I won't spend that much. You wanna make up the difference for me?!

The Camaro will have a class dedicated to it's ilk in SCCA.
Heinricy seems to do just fine with his, and if it works for him I'm guessing that it'll work for you too.

He ran a Camaro in T2 this year? In any case, I wouldn't presume to be able to get NEARLY as much out of a car at the track as he could!

99.9999% of the squids who own the repli-racers will never come anywhere NEAR what those bikes are capable of in the 1/4 or on a roadcourse - particularly without killing themselves. Which is why a big, old fat guy like me on a Hayabusa can pass them so often at track days.

I bet you'd go seconds quicker on a ZX10R or R1, and work less at doing it.

1) Talking smack about what you're gonna buy based solely on weight for a car THAT IS STILL VAPORWARE in production form is flat-out silly.
2) Assuming that your perspective is a significant enough influence to force business decisions for a car based on a single sale to you is even sillier.

Surely you can see that my "OR ELSE!" comment was tongue in cheek, right? Guess not...

Camaro will, as it always has been, be at the top of it's class in performance. Sure, there may be a tenth here or there from year to year, but if Chevrolet has ever proven anything it is that they DO NOT lose performance wars.

Again, I don't really care if it does the quarter 0.2 seconds quicker than a Mustang. I'd really rather have a lighter weight Camaro, EVEN IF it meant they'd have to put a less powerful engine in it to keep it off the Corvette's heels.

I do understand that the chances of it coming in under 3600, let alone 3400 or 3200, are somewhere between slim and none.

But I am open to being pleasantly surprised!

[QUOTE=PacerX]Being the local speed-bike freak and car enthusiast, I can tell you beyond a shadow of a doubt that while weight is a huge issue in sportbike design, it is not the only issue. For the last 6 years, the world's fastest and quickest production motorcycle tipped the scales at 478 pounds DRY.[QUOTE]

Hayabusa is quickest? Only in a straight line, and then only *BARELY*. A modern 600 would take it on any road course.


agreed


No, it isn't either. A Formula Ford is a dedicated road-racing machine. Z06 is a somewhat road-course capable ROAD CAR.



I'd rather the Camaro be more of an Aprilia Tuono than a (cough, cough) Katana (ewwwww!), or Bandit even.



Er, right. I'm *thinking* of a ~$30k new car, so of course I can easily just get a $65k Z06, no prob!



Comfy?! FWIW, the Z28 *should* be a capable road-course burner, not just a 1/4-horse. Ultra-high performance I don't require, but I do NOT want an overweight scrunched-down 2+2 luxury sedan!



EXACTLY! That's why I tire of hearing all the excuses made for an overweight new Camaro. It didn't (still doesn't?) *HAVE* to be that way!



No kidding, but road course performance is more relevant to most hardcore sport riders. And at the road course, 10-15 lb. is significant.

At the road course, weight can actually be more important than power/weight! Which explains why my piddling 10:1 power/weight 240Z hangs with and BEATS Z06s, Vipers, 911 Turbos and the like.

Light weight rules!

New cars don't HAVE to be as heavy as they are!

GM, build me a 3200 lb. V8 Camaro or ELSE!

I couldnt agree more. I autox the heck out of my SS. I could spend a bunch of money on beefing up the motor but it has plenty of power for auto x. My SS needs help in the weight department and I go to extremes to shed a few pounds here and there ands still remain within the rules.
Their is no reason why this car cant weigh in at 3400 lounds or less. My 4th gen SS tips the scales
right now at 3360, so this new car should be close.

PacerX, two questions.

1. How the hell did I miss you at the reception?

2. You were obviously within 10 feet of me at the unveiling, so how did I again miss you?

Guess I should of been looking for someone who appeared to be fighting homicidal urges. :)

PacerX, two questions.

1. How the hell did I miss you at the reception?

2. You were obviously within 10 feet of me at the unveiling, so how did I again miss you?

Guess I should of been looking for someone who appeared to be fighting homicidal urges. :)

Erm... I was a tall guy in a suit.

Wait a second...

I pretty much described everybody from GM who was there...

Crap.

I would have hunted you down had I known you were there. I rode in on Bus #5...

At the reception, I was the tall goofy looking guy in a sweater with the hot redhead.

That'd be "Obersturmfuhrer" X...