Hit list for GM, engineers, and accountants

To all those at GM who are working on this car, and mainly the ACCOUNTANTS who will try to kill it by cutting costs in the wrong places .

Here's my take on the goals that need to be set and achieved for this car to please your potential customers and even be close to the Mustang in terms of sales.

Styling:

Look at the success of the Mustang and particularly the Dodge Charger/Chrysler 300's. Stylish cars sell. All you need is the correct selection of hardware to wrap in a stylish exterior.

Running gear:

DC figured it out with the decently powered base V-6 models, mid range Hemi v-8's and the ultimate SRT-8 vehicles. Ford also uses the same formula, decent base v-6, Mustang GT v-8, and SVT or now Shelby 500GT.
There needs to be the standard v-6 car then the standard v-8 car, then the upper range v-8 car. This upper v-8 car not only has to have upgraded body styling mods, but also an exclusive power plant. Give this car something good like the upcoming 6.2L or the LS7. The mid-range v-8 should be on par with the LS2 because in 3 years 400hp is going to probably just barely be above the norm. Your top v-8 option is going to need the punch of 500hp like the LS7, look at the 475-500hp predicted for the Shelby 500GT, and the damn SRT-8 6.1L Hemi's are already putting out more than 425hp, more like 460+.

Next, the key to selling to the normal people who don't really care about performance, but want a performance car.

Look at all the differences in the Mustang and the past F-bodies.
This new Camaro needs a usable trunk, not a hatch.
Short people like woman need to be able to see out of the car, so no laid back seating position like the discontinued F-bodies.
It will need to be easy to get in and out of like the mustang.
The interior needs to look well put together, and feature soft materials like VW/Audi use. This rubberized interior treatment with beefy control knobs, cruise control stalks, turn signal stalks etc gives a feel of refinement. DO NOT SKIMP ON THE INTERIOR PLASTICS AND TRIMS. You will be looked down upon as using cheap GM interiors once again. Essentially you’ll need interior trim quality to be above what’s currently in the Cadillac STS-V by 2009 to give you a reference point.
The base V-6 needs to have a very low price tag with competitive standard options. Basically the base model has to be a nice car that just isn't as fast or well handling as the V-8 cars. The base car is where all the volume is at, and there needs to be a lot of customization packages like the Mustang to suit those picky V-6 folks. The base V-6 needs a nice comfortable ride.

The three parts of the equation, 1) greatly styled base car, with nice interior, ergos and cheap price, 2) mid-range v-8 ~400hp with 6-speed manual or automatic, 3) top dog v-8 model so that people in v-6 cars feel like their "car" is also top dog. This car has to have the grunt, 500hp, 6-speed manual or auto, and strong independent rear or solid axle.
Just due to costs it's probably not feasible to have an IRS on all of the cars, the base car has to be affordable. So make a normal solid rear axle for the v-6 cars, and make a STRONG rear end for the V-8 cars. Don't plague us again with a rear end built for a 1980's V-6 GMC Jimmy pick-up truck. Incorporate something from the trucks, hell you sell hundreds of thousands of those rear ends a year in the full-size trucks; don't use something from the Colorado.

Aftermarket

Leave room for us to mod these cars with aftermarket parts. Leave the engine under the hood, not up under the windshield and cowl so we can install a roots or screw-type supercharger. Leave room so we can have a normal filter on a stick intake setup like the GTO and mustang. Leave room for headers, and whatever you do make the V-8 cars real true duals all the way back over the axle. The V-8 engines have to be LSx based or you will lose a ton of aftermarket support. GM’s power train engineers have helped you out greatly producing the best small block platform to mod, and the aftermarket has really taken off on the engine as seen at PRI this year.

I’d like to see a Pontiac Firebird, but the GTO can take over for the firebird. Dodge and Chrysler are out selling tons of these new rwd cars that have no heritage or following. The Camaro has both.

Make It Happen.

Give this car something good like the upcoming 6.2L or the LS7. The mid-range v-8 should be on par with the LS2 because in 3 years 400hp is going to probably just barely be above the norm. Your top v-8 option is going to need the punch of 500hp like the LS7, look at the 475-500hp predicted for the Shelby 500GT, and the damn SRT-8 6.1L Hemi's are already putting out more than 425hp, more like 460+.

Chevy has a Corvette. Should we ignore it because ford doesnt have one? Want to compete with a GT500, but a vette and kill it easy. Dont get me wrong, Id love to see a 800hp camaro like everyone is up in arms for around here, but would you rather have:

Option 1 - GM - Performance starts at the base Camaro, V6, low 20k, moves up to mid high 20's with a 5.3L, then a balls out performer with 400 out of a 6.0/6.2L ranging from 30-38k, Next, if your performance goals havent been met is the base Corvette just above 40k, same powertrain as the highest end Camaro, but lighter, more performace minded in all catagories, then Z06.

Option 2 - Ford - Mustang has to try to carry affordable performance on it back solo. IOW, no matter how much money you throw at it, its still a mustang, now with a huge motor, huge pricetag, and still the huge heavy body, upright stance ect...they dont have another car to pick up the Mustangs shortcomings, as we do the Corvette. Its a HUGE step to that GT. Ford NEEDS a Gt500 like car because it doesnt have Corvette covered, and still wont.

Also I SERIOUSLY doubt 400hp will "be the norm" in 3 years. Mustang will have a ~325hp model, and it will sell a ton.

I remember a quote from Guy some time back reguarding enthusiasts killing the Camaro....When I read this board now, I get the feeling that there will be serious mutiny if the new Camaro isnt the fastest production car on the planet....listen to yourselves. If you want to spend 60k on a Camaro, cool, buy a V6 and slap an LS7 GMPP motor in it. Ive got my money on a version that uses the same motor as a base Vette (LS2, maybe a 6.2L by then?) but rated right under it....425 and 400 maybe? Im VERY happy with 400hp for under 35k.

Just dont get your hopes up people, be realistic please, or launch time will have you all being upset with a fantastic car because it doesnt have 550hp.

Your right, Ford and DC are wrong.

You don't need Halo cars like the Shelby 500GT or the SRT-8 vehicles, I mean look how poorly the Mustang and Charger/300 are selling. There's no need for a very high performance halo vehicle in the lineup :o

You should probably work for GM so you can help run them completely thru the ground all the way to china/japan.

this car's success is critical. I dont think an LS7 cobra killer could hurt anything. We keep hearing this corvette arguement time and time again here, and I personally am tired of it because corvette seems to be the standard camaro cannot exceed. People are so afraid of camaro intruding on corvette's territory, but why? The corvette is competing with AND defeating vipers right now, I think we can let the camaro handle the cobra. That along with the fact that the Z06 is the best bang for the buck supercar of the time - i dont think vettes sales are suffering right now. we should not have limits on a car that's success is ever so crucial!!! every downfall it has will be eaten up by the competition.

Your right, Ford and DC are wrong.

You don't need Halo cars like the Shelby 500GT or the SRT-8 vehicles, I mean look how poorly the Mustang and Charger/300 are selling. There's no need for a very high performance halo vehicle in the lineup :o

You should probably work for GM so you can help run them completely thru the ground all the way to china/japan.
my thoughts exactly.

GM doesnt lose horsepower wars - and it shouldnt cheat by cross classing (vette vs mustang cobra) to do it.

You don't need Halo cars like the Shelby 500GT or the SRT-8 vehicles, I mean look how poorly the Mustang and Charger/300 are selling.

Whoa! Easy.

Mustang sells extremly well WITHOUT a halo car at the moment, You proved my point for me. Sure, we have all seen the GT500 online and in mags, but they have accounted for how many of mustangs record sales?:rolleyes:

Charger and 300 were selling in MASSIVE numbers long before the SRT8 models were even announced.

I didnt say Camaro didnt need a halo, I said it didnt need to be the fastest thing in the country to sell very well....and you helped me to prove that point. Thanks.

Charger and 300 were selling in MASSIVE numbers long before the SRT8 models were even announced.
and thats because they have excellent base platforms to start with, which was 80% of the points he addressed in his original post.

I didnt say Camaro didnt need a halo, I said it didnt need to be the fastest thing in the country to sell very well....and you helped me to prove that point. Thanks.
everyone is taking what each other is saying to the extreme. a low-production cobra killer would be a good marketing maneuver, argue it all you want. Developement of brand loyalty in customers is a target that GM is completely missing right now. while that doesnt show in initial sales like everyone is all worried about, it does show in future sales.

Also the point I am trying to make isnt that Camaro shouldnt or cant exceed Corvette, its that...if you want that much performance, then why would choose to have it in a heavier, larger, car like the Camaro instead of the class leading car that WE have in Corvette.

We have a bunch of weirdos running around hear saying the Camaro must have this much power and weigh in under this.....Chevy makes that car, for you!!! and it beats up on everything, and it is done at a FANTASTIC price point.

So what I guess I am missing is...you all would rather, for the same money, have a Camaro, that doesnt handle as well, accelerate at the same pace, and weighs a significant amount more than a Corvette, than have the corvette?:confused:

Thats what I am hearing.....that you WOULDNT own a Corvette that has all the performance of the Camaro you want, because its a Corvette...even if the Corvette would be cheaper than a balls out Camaro?

If thats the case, I have no argument.

and thats because they have excellent base platforms to start with, which was 80% of the points he addressed in his original post.


everyone is taking what each other is saying to the extreme. a low-production cobra killer would be a good marketing maneuver, argue it all you want. Developement of brand loyalty in customers is a target that GM is completely missing right now. while that doesnt show in initial sales like everyone is all worried about, it does show in future sales.


Agreed on both points. A very limited production Camaro that could tangle with the GT500 would be good on many levels, but it would seem that most on here say "Thats the model Im getting." Chevy isnt going to make an affordable car that can take down the GT500. Thats what Im getting at.

[QUOTE=JoeliusZ28]and thats because they have excellent base platforms to start with, which was 80% of the points he addressed in his original post. [QUOTE]

The base is the key, but to keep sales going you have to have the halo car. After the initial v-6 and v-8 cars rolled out the halo cars were introduced or made available. Those halo cars are what many owners attribute their base car with in terms of the image of the car.
Ford has built the mustang's reputation on the base v-6/normal v-8/upper v-8 formula. DC copied it with the charger and 300C, and they are both doing very well. Why even risk it with the Camaro?

GM proved that putting the same 400hp LS2 in the GTO and the C6 made no real waves in the minds of the buying public. The Corvette is a 2 seater sports car, something the GTO and Camaro are not. There can be overlap in hp with the Camaro and Vette, GM just needs to realize, everyone else arlready does.

Also the point I am trying to make isnt that Camaro shouldnt or cant exceed Corvette, its that...if you want that much performance, then why would choose to have it in a heavier, larger, car like the Camaro instead of the class leading car that WE have in Corvette.

We have a bunch of weirdos running around hear saying the Camaro must have this much power and weigh in under this.....Chevy makes that car, for you!!! and it beats up on everything, and it is done at a FANTASTIC price point.

So what I guess I am missing is...you all would rather, for the same money, have a Camaro, that doesnt handle as well, accelerate at the same pace, and weighs a significant amount more than a Corvette, than have the corvette?:confused:

Thats what I am hearing.....that you WOULDNT own a Corvette that has all the performance of the Camaro you want, because its a Corvette...even if the Corvette would be cheaper than a balls out Camaro?

If thats the case, I have no argument.
last time i checked corvette has two seats. if you think there isnt a market for performance with more than two seats, you might want to research why the cobra, the GTO, or better yet the four door SRT8 exists. Two door supercars arent practical to some people no matter how affordable chevy has been so gracious to make them.

Agreed on both points. A very limited production Camaro that could tangle with the GT500 would be good on many levels, but it would seem that most on here say "Thats the model Im getting." Chevy isnt going to make an affordable car that can take down the GT500. Thats what Im getting at.
thats fine by me, i just want to see a camaro that could end up being collectible someday. my z28 is one of 200,000 others, and there is nothing other of the same year thats more collectible at first glance (and when i say that im referring to 1LEs)

I have only 3 words: Mind the details.

Fit and finish, materials, the way things "feel". Most of this stuff doesn't add cost to the car, and it really makes a difference to those who aren't in it for the performance thing (aka, the "V6 buyers" and the wives of many potential buyers).

With the way GM has been taking interior quality these days, I do not think they will mess up in that department. Every new car seems to trump the car that came out previously.
What is important is that it handles well, its powerful, its fun to drive, looks great, and is priced right.
Having an 505 hp Camaro...I dunno who would buy one? Would you spend upwards of 45k for one? With the 6.2 coming up, I expect this engine to pack something in the mid 400's.

And on another note...the 6.1 is "underrated"?? Uh...dont think so. The numbers they are making are spot on with there performance.

The new interior will still have to exceed that trend, we're talking about a car that won't be out until 2009, not the end of this month.

The 6.1L Hemi is rated at 425hp, there are SRT-8's running 12.5's at 108+mph in a 4200lb curb weight Automatic car. That's not 425hp or 25hp more than a 4000lbs GTO that's not even close the 12's.

Also the point I am trying to make isnt that Camaro shouldnt or cant exceed Corvette, its that...if you want that much performance, then why would choose to have it in a heavier, larger, car like the Camaro instead of the class leading car that WE have in Corvette.



Well heck, that's what a muscle car is all about...lots 'o power...in a 2+2 form. I've had both: Three Camaros and now a Corvette. If Chevy would have had a Camaro to offer at the time of purchase, I would have gone with the Camaro.

As it is now, I can fit one passenger in the Vette. Don't get me wrong, I love my Vette, but honestly, it wasn't my first choice...and as a new family guy, a 2+2 makes more sense. Fun, sporty, sexy, fast and able to carry passengers.

The way I see it, a car is more than the horsepower rating of the engine...its the whole package. The GTO certainly isn't stealing any of the Vette's thunder. Its a completely different market...they share the engine only. I see the Camaro as doing the same thing. Furthermore, if they price it right, a power enthusiast might be able to get into a new LS2 powered vehicle, without having to spend the $$ on a Vette.

GM proved that putting the same 400hp LS2 in the GTO and the C6 made no real waves in the minds of the buying public. The Corvette is a 2 seater sports car, something the GTO and Camaro are not. There can be overlap in hp with the Camaro and Vette, GM just needs to realize, everyone else arlready does.


And the Camaro Z/28 can also get an LS2 without stepping on the vette's toes. But you're asking for MORE than the GTO equation. You want more hp and faster for less money. Not going to happen.

The base C6 vette is $45K. That's your starting price for a Camaro with a bigger more powerful engine than the LS2 vette.

Ford is getting ready to put a 475-500hp engine in the Mustang, and DC already has a 450+hp engine in the SRT-8 vehicles. The DC vehicles are less than the $45k price point, and the Mustang is projected to be in close to the $40k price point. Obviously the market is there.

The new interior will still have to exceed that trend, we're talking about a car that won't be out until 2009, not the end of this month.

The 6.1L Hemi is rated at 425hp, there are SRT-8's running 12.5's at 108+mph in a 4200lb curb weight Automatic car. That's not 425hp or 25hp more than a 4000lbs GTO that's not even close the 12's.From what I understand, there has been ONE that ran a 12.5 @ 108 mph. And the LS2 GTO is certainly "close to the 12s", with the big limit being tires/traction, IMO. Look at the tires on the SRT8 vs. the GTO.

But anyway, as for STS-V ($75k) interior in a $25k Camaro: I wouldn't count on it. The STS-V has freaking hand-stitched leather on the dash and doors, for crying out loud.

Sheesh. It isn't like Toyota Camrys and Honda Accords have STS-V or Lexus LS430 interiors in them, either, despite how the lame automags like to pretend they do. They use their share of hard-ish plastics just like the domestics. There is only a certain amount of stuff you can do at a given price point.

How many automatic GTO's have even run high 12's?
The GTO weighs a couple hundred pounds less than the SRT-8 and is only "rated" at 25hp less, clearly the SRT-8's are underated.

I'll stand by the STS-V grade interior for 2 reasons.
1) GM starts reasoning, "well it doesn't need great interior materials, it is only a Camaro". Wrong, clearly quality well put together interiors are what customers want or GM and Ford wouldn't be in the crapper. We might as well ask for something more than just average quality, so that maybe average quality interior components will actually end up in the production car.
2) The car is 3 YEARS away. In the course of 3 years Honda and Toyota will probably have updated half of their lineups with new and improved models, while GM is still trying to bring a car people have been asking for to market. The level of refinement and quality will only go up in the coming years, GM needs to anticipate that, instead of bringing the car out, and making it instantly obsolete in terms of interior quality.
Be a LEADER, not a follower, or worse like GM has been recently, Late to the party altogether.

GM, you also need to advertise this car, unlike the last Camaro.
Good advertisements also, like on the lines of the Cadillac V series comercials.

GM doesnt lose horsepower wars - and it shouldnt cheat by cross classing (vette vs mustang cobra) to do it.

They won't.

There is a way-cool killer Camaro on the way kiddies...

And 400hp is on the LOW end of the scale. Merely average.

The big gun is going to be well over that figure.

They won't.

There is a way-cool killer Camaro on the way kiddies...

And 400hp is on the LOW end of the scale. Merely average.

The big gun is going to be well over that figure.

For Real? Cause that would be awesome
:bow:

To all those at GM who are working on this car, and mainly the ACCOUNTANTS who will try to kill it by cutting costs in the wrong places .

It's the guys who work out bids that you have to worry about. It's these guys screwup that delayed the Solstice. The engineers do a great job, and the accountants are happy as long as the things within budget. But there's plenty of guys who do bids who are squeezing suppliers, and awarding bids based on cost over quality, then feel they've done something great when they can say they saved the company an additional $X.

Here's my take on the goals that need to be set and achieved for this car to please your potential customers and even be close to the Mustang in terms of sales.

Styling:

Look at the success of the Mustang and particularly the Dodge Charger/Chrysler 300's. Stylish cars sell. All you need is the correct selection of hardware to wrap in a stylish exterior.

Anything coming out in 2009 (as the Camaro is) is already done.

Running gear:

DC figured it out with the decently powered base V-6 models, mid range Hemi v-8's and the ultimate SRT-8 vehicles. Ford also uses the same formula, decent base v-6, Mustang GT v-8, and SVT or now Shelby 500GT.

There's only the V6 and GT Mustangs. SVT has been MIA since the begining of the year. Shelby will be replacing what used to be the Cobra in May.... as a 2007 car!

Give this car something good like the upcoming 6.2L or the LS7. The mid-range v-8 should be on par with the LS2 because in 3 years 400hp is going to probably just barely be above the norm. Your top v-8 option is going to need the punch of 500hp like the LS7, look at the 475-500hp predicted for the Shelby 500GT, and the damn SRT-8 6.1L Hemi's are already putting out more than 425hp, more like 460+.

You AREN'T going to see the handbuilt and expensive LS7 in the next Camaro... The 6.2 will be replacing the 6.0....you don't need to win horsepower wars to win races.

Next, the key to selling to the normal people who don't really care about performance, but want a performance car.

If they WANT a performance car, then you can't say they DON'T care about performance.

What DOE'S need to be done is that Camaro needs to appeal to a wider range of people who simply want a good looking, well made, easy to live with, sports coupe.

The base V-6 needs to have a very low price tag with competitive standard options. Basically the base model has to be a nice car that just isn't as fast or well handling as the V-8 cars. The base car is where all the volume is at, and there needs to be a lot of customization packages like the Mustang to suit those picky V-6 folks. The base V-6 needs a nice comfortable ride.

Camaro doesn't need a "very" low price. It needs a competitive price. Camaro's have always matched Mustangs in pricing. They will continue to.

...This car has to have the grunt, 500hp, 6-speed manual or auto, and strong independent rear or solid axle...

This will equal a few dozen sales.

Just due to costs it's probably not feasible to have an IRS on all of the cars, the base car has to be affordable. So make a normal solid rear axle for the v-6 cars, and make a STRONG rear end for the V-8 cars. Don't plague us again with a rear end built for a 1980's V-6 GMC Jimmy pick-up truck. Incorporate something from the trucks, hell you sell hundreds of thousands of those rear ends a year in the full-size trucks; don't use something from the Colorado.

Actually, it's more feasible to have a single type of axle on all cars than offering 2 types. Ford spent resources modifying the DEW based D2C chassis to accept a live axle, but with 150,000 guaranteed sales annually, and no competition for at least the 1st 2-3 years of production, Ford will more than make up the difference. Camaro isn't going to have that luxury. It's going to be one or the other. In this case, IRS won.

Leave room for us to mod these cars with aftermarket parts. Leave the engine under the hood, not up under the windshield and cowl so we can install a roots or screw-type supercharger. Leave room so we can have a normal filter on a stick intake setup like the GTO and mustang. Leave room for headers, and whatever you do make the V-8 cars real true duals all the way back over the axle. The V-8 engines have to be LSx based or you will lose a ton of aftermarket support. GM’s power train engineers have helped you out greatly producing the best small block platform to mod, and the aftermarket has really taken off on the engine as seen at PRI this year.

I agree wholeheartedly. But be advised, no one is going to void the warranty on a car they are going to be paying for over the next 5 years by bolting on a supercharger, or other mods.

Also, as a GM fan, I am honest enough to tell you that the LS1/2 engines are terrible when it comes to aftermarket next to the competition.

I’d like to see a Pontiac Firebird, but the GTO can take over for the firebird. Dodge and Chrysler are out selling tons of these new rwd cars that have no heritage or following. The Camaro has both.


Chrysler is selling 300C and Charger Hemis like wildfire, and they don't have a following???!

Sure Camaro has a following, but why were sales of the 4th gen (the quickest and by far the fastest Camaros ever made) terrible? So bad that Ford sold 5 Mustangs to every Camaro sold the last couple of years?

It's great to be boiling over with enthusiasm for the Camaro, but unless we are honest about it's shortcomings, and what needs to be done, the next Camaro will end up just as dead as the last one did. Ford will be laughing all the way to the bank, and we'll once again have heaps of clueless people in denial talking about how fast their car is, even though it hasn't been made in years, failed twice, and wouldn't likely come back again.


Remember, more men bought Mustang V6s than Camaro V8s, and Mustang V8s sold to men at a 2 to 1 ratio over V8 Camaros.... even though Ford has FEWER dealers than Chevrolet.

Remember, more men bought Mustang V6s than Camaro V8s, and Mustang V8s sold to men at a 2 to 1 ratio over V8 Camaros.... even though Ford has FEWER dealers than Chevrolet.
Excluding the reason of the Mustang being able to be lived with easier on a daily basis, are there any other reasons that this happened?

No, only because Mustang sold so many more units.

Excluding the reason of the Mustang being able to be lived with easier on a daily basis, are there any other reasons that this happened?

Sticking with just the V6 Mustangs:

1. Lower insurence.
2. Lower purchase price.
3. Plenty of aftermarket and factory "personalization" items.
4. Relative ease of making the thing quicker cheaply without voiding the warranty.
5. No fewer than 5 Mustang specific magazines full of aftermarket items available at the local 7/11.

For V8 Mustangs, drop #1 & #2, and intensify 3, 4, & 5.

That's just off the top of my head. :)

I agree wholeheartedly. But be advised, no one is going to void the warranty on a car they are going to be paying for over the next 5 years by bolting on a supercharger, or other mods.

I voided my powertrain warranty within 4 hours of taking delivery of my SS.

You can bet your life that my Vette will get the same treatment.



Also, as a GM fan, I am honest enough to tell you that the LS1/2 engines are terrible when it comes to aftermarket next to the competition.


WHAT?!?

Guy, you and I see eye to eye on lots of stuff, but this is just flat-out wrong.

A case could be made that the 5.0 liter Ford has a more solid aftermarket than the LSx, but they're seriously old now... and if we're going old school - there's always the mighty Chevrolet small block... which can serve up an a$$-whipping to a Ford small block every which way possible any day of the week, and twice on Tuesdays.

The less said about Ford transmissions the better...

Apart from that, there's the Ford 4.6... which hasn't exactly set the world on fire...

***COUGH***boat anchor***COUGH***

Nope, sorry... of the late-model modern engines, the LSx is the aftermarket king of the hill.

Even with the old LS1's, 400 rwhp is a cam and some low-buck intake/exhaust mods away.

It's the guys who work out bids that you have to worry about. It's these guys screwup that delayed the Solstice. The engineers do a great job, and the accountants are happy as long as the things within budget. But there's plenty of guys who do bids who are squeezing suppliers, and awarding bids based on cost over quality, then feel they've done something great when they can say they saved the company an additional $X.

GM purchases parts based on a spec or drawing/model. The tech data package given to the suppliers contains all of the requirements for this part as specified by Engineering and QA, e.g. materials, tolerances, finishes, failure rate, etc. It is the buyer's job to find the best value that meets that spec. Buyers cannot accept a cheaper part if it doesn't meet those requirements, unless Engineering and QA sign off on the discrepancies.

GM purchases parts based on a spec or drawing/model. The tech data package given to the suppliers contains all of the requirements for this part as specified by Engineering and QA, e.g. materials, tolerances, finishes, failure rate, etc. It is the buyer's job to find the best value that meets that spec. Buyers cannot accept a cheaper part if it doesn't meet those requirements, unless Engineering and QA sign off on the discrepancies.

There are a few current issues with this analysis, but that's the way it's supposed to work...

1) Engineers at GM aren't very good at specifying anything anymore. With a few exceptions they are mostly contract design release engineers, NOT subject matter experts.

Wanna shoot a manufacturing organization square in the a$$? Hire contract engineers who are in a constant state of "Learning Curve" because of turnover, and are therefore never getting to the point of proficiency.

BTW- It's GM's own damned fault about the turnover as contract engineers are treated like second (or third...) class citizens, and GM has ZERO loyalty towards them - so they, in turn, do what is in their own best interests... leave the INSTANT they find a little more money elsewhere. Anybody who thinks otherwise is delusional - INCLUDING GM SENIOR MANAGEMENT.

2) You can only squeeze the turnip so far. And GM Purchasing is doing NOTHING but squeezing, which is one of the core reasons why the supply base truly hates GM. At some point suppliers are forced to make decisions along the lines of:

"I either make a change without telling GM about it to make some profit or I go out of business."

Guess which one the supplier is going to choose?

There is no room for a reasonable business transaction - something along the lines of:

"I make a fair profit, you get a world-class product."

The entire industry has followed GM's model for the last 10 years or so and we're all swirling our way down the toilet together.

IT DOESN'T WORK. EITHER WAKE UP OR WE'RE ALL GOING TO BE WORKING AT McDONALD'S (all of us... including the GM folks).

I voided my powertrain warranty within 4 hours of taking delivery of my SS.

You can bet your life that my Vette will get the same treatment.




WHAT?!?

Guy, you and I see eye to eye on lots of stuff, but this is just flat-out wrong.

A case could be made that the 5.0 liter Ford has a more solid aftermarket than the LSx, but they're seriously old now... and if we're going old school - there's always the mighty Chevrolet small block... which can serve up an a$$-whipping to a Ford small block every which way possible any day of the week, and twice on Tuesdays.

The less said about Ford transmissions the better...

Apart from that, there's the Ford 4.6... which hasn't exactly set the world on fire...

***COUGH***boat anchor***COUGH***

Nope, sorry... of the late-model modern engines, the LSx is the aftermarket king of the hill.

Even with the old LS1's, 400 rwhp is a cam and some low-buck intake/exhaust mods away.

Pacer, you are wrong on this one.

How much hp a mod may generate has absolutally no bearing on availability of mods, or the companies who produce them. As GuionM has said, there are at least 5 mainstream magazines that focus on the Mustang alone. These days, at least half, or more, of the articles are on the 4.6, and many are comparing mods for them. You can read one article that will compare 15 different companies exhaust headers................ or 10 different heads.................... or 10 different supercharger systems.

The Mustang aftermarket is HUGE. It is huge in the way that the small block Chevy aftermarket was. Whether you dislike the 4.6............. and that is certainly your perogative............. to dismiss the aftermarket for it, due to your dislike, is silly. The Mustang aftermarket doesn't care what engine is in the car............... they will make parts for it............. because it will sell.............. and sell in huge numbers. Add in the fact that Ford actively helps the aftermarket, by providing cars before they reach production, and offering propriotary computer information to certain companies, ensures the availability of this aftermarket.

The mustang aftermarket has to be huge...

they're still catching up to my 6 year old car :bow:

Also, as a GM fan, I am honest enough to tell you that the LS1/2 engines are terrible when it comes to aftermarket next to the competition.

You have posted this time and time again, and I think it is one of the most ridiculous statements I have seen made on this forum. Just because there is not a huge LS1 section in Jegs or Summit, means there is no aftermarket? How do you quantify a good aftermarket then? There is absolutely no shortage on aftermarket LS series parts, unless you are looking at only GM for your performance pieces. There is so much more aftermarket selection for an LS engine than a 4.6, it is unreal. Maybe not the old 5.0s, there is is still alot of catching up to do there, but the aftermarket is surely not even close to terrible.

I voided my powertrain warranty within 4 hours of taking delivery of my SS.

You can bet your life that my Vette will get the same treatment.




WHAT?!?

Guy, you and I see eye to eye on lots of stuff, but this is just flat-out wrong.

A case could be made that the 5.0 liter Ford has a more solid aftermarket than the LSx, but they're seriously old now... and if we're going old school - there's always the mighty Chevrolet small block... which can serve up an a$$-whipping to a Ford small block every which way possible any day of the week, and twice on Tuesdays.

The less said about Ford transmissions the better...

Apart from that, there's the Ford 4.6... which hasn't exactly set the world on fire...

***COUGH***boat anchor***COUGH***

Nope, sorry... of the late-model modern engines, the LSx is the aftermarket king of the hill.

Even with the old LS1's, 400 rwhp is a cam and some low-buck intake/exhaust mods away.


Agree completely. And it is only growing faster and faster. There are already so many different varieties of aftermarket blocks and heads you can buy for an LS motor. Hell, they have an individual throttle body intake for the LS series engines, if the need suits the buyer. Ford has how many intakes for their 4.6? How much does the Bullitt intake still cost a 4.6 2v Mustang owner these days? Probably way too much still.

Pacer, you are wrong on this one.

How much hp a mod may generate has absolutally no bearing on availability of mods, or the companies who produce them. As GuionM has said, there are at least 5 mainstream magazines that focus on the Mustang alone. These days, at least half, or more, of the articles are on the 4.6, and many are comparing mods for them. You can read one article that will compare 15 different companies exhaust headers................ or 10 different heads.................... or 10 different supercharger systems.

The Mustang aftermarket is HUGE. It is huge in the way that the small block Chevy aftermarket was. Whether you dislike the 4.6............. and that is certainly your perogative............. to dismiss the aftermarket for it, due to your dislike, is silly. The Mustang aftermarket doesn't care what engine is in the car............... they will make parts for it............. because it will sell.............. and sell in huge numbers. Add in the fact that Ford actively helps the aftermarket, by providing cars before they reach production, and offering propriotary computer information to certain companies, ensures the availability of this aftermarket.


The Mustang aftermarket is huge, but by the same token you could say the Camaro aftermarket is huge as well, since you could stick whatever SBC you want into a Camaro and call it a day. This was about engine aftermarkets themselves, and although the 4.6 aftermarket is certainly not small, it is not near the size of the 5.0 aftermarket, and one of the reasons I started losing interest in the 4.6 many years ago is because 1: I feel there are too many design compromises in the engine itself (but that is another story), 2: the aftermarket and engine pontential was definelty not where I wanted it to be. I will give the 4.6 credit, it has many supercharging options going for it. But then again, the only way to make decent affordable power on a 4.6 is supercharge it, so I guess that aftermarket was forced to develop.

There's only the V6 and GT Mustangs. SVT has been MIA since the begining of the year. Shelby will be replacing what used to be the Cobra in May.... as a 2007 car!
It doesn't matter what the name of the performance division is, it's the fact that Ford has pushed on with a performance arm for the Mustang beyond the V-6 and standard GT.

This will equal a few dozen sales.
There needs to be a halo car. I'm telling you people will buy V-6 cars and standard V-8 cars based on a superior V-8 option car. Plus you will sell the upper V-8 option car, and all the car magazines will talk about how badass it is, that is as long as it stacks up with the 500hp Shelby. A 400hp LS2 car won't be able to do that unless it weighs next to nothing.


I agree wholeheartedly. But be advised, no one is going to void the warranty on a car they are going to be paying for over the next 5 years by bolting on a supercharger, or other mods.
Really?
I believe most V-8 people will change thier exhaust within the first few months of ownership. People will install an intake, aka filter on a stick, without thinking twice while still under warranty. Your hardcore performance base will do it all, intake, headers, exhaust, underdrive pulley's etc because they did it on their F-body. I know I did, with no thought to the warranty.

Also, as a GM fan, I am honest enough to tell you that the LS1/2 engines are terrible when it comes to aftermarket next to the competition.
Look around at all the applications the LS engines have been used in. All the latest hotrods have the LS engine, the Ultima GTR uses the LS engine, look at the support at PRI this year. True the Ford camp will support a Briggs & Straton 5hp motor if Ford Motor Company put it in the Mustang, but the LS engines are widely regarded in the aftermarket. The problem is they make so much hp in stock form not as many people mod them, a problem the non FI 4.6 Ford camp can't relate too :D

Chrysler is selling 300C and Charger Hemis like wildfire, and they don't have a following???!

Yes, everyone is buying a 4-door Hemi Charger, because they use to own one 30 years ago :o Neither of those cars have the linage that the Camaro or Mustang have. No doubt DC is selling a lot of cars on the "hemi" concept, but the cars themselves have no real huge following. The DC boys are just happy to have anything RWD with a Hemi that isn't a truck.

Gen III engines follow along right next to the Gen I SBC's that have probably the largest aftermarket support known to man.

As for people not modding there warranty car, Im sure that the MAJORITY of the owners wont, but there will most deffinatly be people with LT's, 3 inch stainless cat backs with high flows, 02 delete kits, 6/4 piston brakes, adjustable suspension, etc.

Hell, when I got my Maxx, first thing was to search the internet. Found they make a supercharger for the 3.5 already, as well as Eibac make a lowering kit for it. Hell, within a year, I already took off the tires and put on better gripping V rated tires.

I don't think the LSx has near the aftermarket that the now old 5.0 has, but I bet it has the Mod motor aftermarket beat - at least in terms of the number of individual products available (actual inventory sold might be another matter, for the simple reason that there are far, far more 4.6 modulars out there in Mustangs than there are LS1/2s in the F-body twins and GTOs).

Speaking of the Mustang aftermarket (specifically the V8 aftermarket)...there are indeed a lot of folks that void their warranty within days, weeks, or months of the purchase of their GT with things like superchargers, N2O, computer chips, etc. Probably not a majority, but a significant number.

Also, as a GM fan, I am honest enough to tell you that the LS1/2 engines are terrible when it comes to aftermarket next to the competition.




WHAT????

Have you been living under a rock the last 2-3 years? I agree the LS motor aftermarket was slim...slimmer than the bastard child LT1 for several years.

But now we have LS1 aftermarket blocks...at least 3 different companies making aftermarket heads completely new castings (not ported stockers)...there are dozens upon dozens of cam profiles to choose from by several manufacturers, there's 6 different kinds of headers at least, FAST intakes, aftermarket throttle bodies...there are even carb intake adapters and coilpack drivers so you can ditch the PCM. Cranks, pistons, stroker kits, etc. have all been out for a while even. Literally ANYTHING you might want for an LS1 motor is available.

Just flip through an issue of GMHTP. I will agree with Bob Cosby the LS series motors have the Ford Mod motors beat by miles in terms of the aftermarket following.

There is literally any part you want out there available for the LS1. Is there the same variety available as the Gen 1 SBC? No, but the LS1 has had far fewer variants and has only been in production for 9 years.

Sorry to come off so histerical Guy, but I just do not know how you can make that statement with a straight face. The LS1 has been an aftermarket boon. Tuner shops have opened up JUST for the LS1 business. That should tell you something.

There's a guy in Flint, Michigan who can get your F-body LSx in the 6's...

Which oughta be fast enough for just about everybody...

The aftermarket is there. All you have to do is hit a site like LS1tech.com to be bombarded with folks who'll drown you in parts.

The big hitters like AFR, Holley and Edelbrock are also making hay with the LSx motor.

That's why I just can't figure out the idea that there is not a large aftermarket following for the motor.

If anything, the place where the aftermarket is slim is the T-56 (not a huge amount of support) and 10-bolt since the only solution to the drivetrain issues with the 10-bolt is getting rid of it altogether and swapping in an 8.8, 9 inch or 12-bolt.

The facts are in. The LSx is just flat-out a superior performance motor across the entire spectrum (very much including aftermarket support) when compared to the 4.6 - which is the ONLY competition it really has in late-model performance platforms.

Also, as a GM fan, I am honest enough to tell you that the LS1/2 engines are terrible when it comes to aftermarket next to the competition.



Chrysler is selling 300C and Charger Hemis like wildfire, and they don't have a following???!

I think everybody adequately put you in your place for the first part. What I really found ironic is how you mention the Chrysler Hemis in the very next sentence...yes, they have "a following"...but their aftermarket is dry as a bone. Unless I just haven't been keeping up, there is virtually nothing out for the DCX Hemi yet, and it has been on the market since when? The 2001 or 2002 Ram? So what "competition" are you speaking of when you mention the LSx motors? Because honestly, in terms of current-age Domestic "hotrodability", your only two real choices are GM LSx powered cars or the Ford 4.6. I would even put the old SRT-4's potential above a Hemi in terms of the aftermarket.

I think everybody adequately put you in your place for the first part. What I really found ironic is how you mention the Chrysler Hemis in the very next sentence...yes, they have "a following"...but their aftermarket is dry as a bone. Unless I just haven't been keeping up, there is virtually nothing out for the DCX Hemi yet, and it has been on the market since when? The 2001 or 2002 Ram? So what "competition" are you speaking of when you mention the LSx motors? Because honestly, in terms of current-age Domestic "hotrodability", your only two real choices are GM LSx powered cars or the Ford 4.6. I would even put the old SRT-4's potential above a Hemi in terms of the aftermarket.


The aftermarket support really isn't out there yet for the Hemi. It seems to suffer from some of the same problems as the LS1, a lot of stock hp. With engines rated at 425, really making 450+, there won't initially be as many people looking to mod them. Besides the hardcore hp junkies of courese. The 4.6, well people haven't had that problem since day one, and look at all the superchargers out for that engine ;)
Sometimes having a great engine works against you.

The aftermarket support really isn't out there yet for the Hemi. It seems to suffer from some of the same problems as the LS1, a lot of stock hp. With engines rated at 425, really making 450+, there won't initially be as many people looking to mod them.

Also the Hemi engine hasn't yet found a suitable vehicle for the die hard go-fast crowd. Not many drag racers are drawn to a 4000+ lb 4-door sedan as the platform of choice for a quarter mile monster.

Also the Hemi engine hasn't yet found a suitable vehicle for the die hard go-fast crowd. Not many drag racers are drawn to a 4000+ lb 4-door sedan as the platform of choice for a quarter mile monster.

I think this plays a large reason in why the Hemi does not have a decent aftermarket yet. How much smaller might the LS aftermarket be if the LS1 F-Bodies never came to be?

They won't.

There is a way-cool killer Camaro on the way kiddies...

And 400hp is on the LOW end of the scale. Merely average.

The big gun is going to be well over that figure.
cant believe i didnt see this before.

umm...

:D :D :D :D :D :D

I think this plays a large reason in why the Hemi does not have a decent aftermarket yet.

The other reason, as I understand it, is the fact that the PCM was not easily "cracked" by the aftermarket to allow for tuning modifications.

The thing that really threw the LSx into the first rank in the aftermarket was a little piece of software known as "LS1Edit". Once the PCM became a thing to be understood and modified accordingly, instead of jury-rigged around with things like MAF Translators, the LSx took off.

Lesson to GM:
Locking down your PCM's is bad business. Don't do it.

Ford was like that for a long, long time - but my how those times have changed. For example, two of the major aftermarket "chip companies" had the 05 software out before the 05 GT actually hit the streets.

The other reason, as I understand it, is the fact that the PCM was not easily "cracked" by the aftermarket to allow for tuning modifications.


We probably have some of Mercedes' influence to thank for that.

We probably have some of Mercedes' influence to thank for that.

Unfortunately, GM has already gone down that same road. The PCM for the HFV6 has not yet been cracked by the aftermarket, severely limiting the mods available for that motor. If that is any indication, expect future GM engines to be similarly limited.