Pontiacman's "Return to Greatness!!!!!"

:D Sorry, I couldn't help it... ;)

(Cue Captain Chaos music, for you Smokey and the Bandit fans..."Dun dun DUUUNNNN" :D )...

Anyway, let me first say I have no clue how to run a multi-billion dollar corporation. I am not even entirely sure I could run a used car lot, but I'd like to think I could. With that being said, I have ten ideas I came up with while washing my Z28 earlier this evening, preparing it for its long winter nap (no AWD means it will cause me a firey death if I try to use it before April ;) Kidding, gentlemen...)

BTW, Scott...if you're reading this, I prefer my cash in small, unmarked bills. Please...no black Suburbans making the drop off, either.

Ok, in order of importance...

10) A marketing campaign that truly means something. Get out there. Get bold. If a Malibu really has better initial quality than a Camry, SAY IT. No one will believe me if I say it...so get the message out there. An assembly line worker saying "we have the best plant in North America" in the Employee Discount ads doesn't actually tell me which friggen cars are made there!!!! Trumpet quality as high as you can...because around here, no one has a damn clue. I am tired of people running to Honda because they either a) assume they're better or b) are too lazy to do their own research, and listen to the person telling them a Honda is better. I have now seen FOUR Honda purchases in my own department of 9 people in the last 8 months. I am not kidding. All of these people didn't even bother looking at anything other than a Honda or Toyota (I was dumb enough to ask them :( )

9) Consolidating dealers is good, but what would be even better is if GM was able to gain a little more control over what dealers do when making out new dealer agreements. An aside for people who don't know: GM has the power to veto the sale of a GM franchise from one person to another. GM has the power to allow the sale to happen with certain stipulations. This is how we are seeing so many B/GMC/P franchises being created. "Oh, Mr. Dealer...you want this Chevy franchise? Well, sell your Pontiac franchise to the Buick/GMC guy down the street, and then we'll let you have Chevy." On this same note, exert more power (if possible...I don't know if it is) over the new franchise owner with respect to the quality of the building. CSI. Are you dualed with an import franchise? Get a new building for it. I am sick of seeing my local Chevy/VW dealer with literally 150 VWs, and 25 Chevys. I can't make this crap up.

8) Sell Saab. Please. GM, you have enough problems. Saab fits nowhere. It does nothing but suck cash. Saab has even been bastardized by your takeover. Sell it to Renault, Fiat (oh wait they have no $$$...wait a minute, you gave them $4B. Make them use some of it to buy Saab!!) or whomever. Get rid of it. There is no value added by having Saab. Saturn and Caddy will cover any range you wanted with Saab. Please...sell it.

7) Give Buick a car that is so much in the spirit of the 300, rather than the LeSabre, that people actually want to visit a Buick store. Hint: I walked by a Lucerne last night at the local Buick dealer. $36k, fully loaded. Question: Why is a remote start optional on a V8 Lucerne, yet standard on a GP GT? Standard on a Malibu LT? The mind wanders...

6) If you sell GMAC, I am buying a Toyota. I mean it. Don't make me do that. Why you would sell your most profitable asset when you have nearly $20B in the bank is beyond me. Sell Saab. Don't sell GMAC. I realize you can sell a 60% stake in GMAC for over $10B...but YOU DON'T NEED TO.

5) Put a muzzle on Maximum Bob. Don't get me wrong...I love him. Dearly. He has given Pontiac dealers something to truly crow about with the Solstice. As a group, we will screw that momentum by adding $11k addendums to the stickers. This goes without saying. But, you have no idea the morale booster we get as a dealer network to be able to sell a car that people WANT, and not have to GIVE IT AWAY. Honda can sell cars for MSRP. So can Toyota. BMW can. Audi can. GM dealers? We have to give up our right arm to make a sale sometimes. By no means am I asking people here to feel sorry for dealers...as a profession, we rank barely above ambulance chasers. But believe me when I say there is not a lot of fun to be had being a GM dealer. I know a couple that are actually starting to really lose $$$. Ask a Honda dealer owner if he's losing $$. Oh yeah, back to Bob. When I have 78 year old women asking "why I sell a damaged brand," you know his mouth-offs aren't doing anyone any good.

4) Stop the rebates. Period. People cannot comparison shop a GM to a Toyota anymore because unless you have a pHd, how the hell can you know what you're going to PAY FOR THE GM CAR? I can go to toyota.com, build my Corolla, price it, find the rebate, and boom...that's it. With GM, some sites make it easy like Chevy to build and get the red tag, others are like Pontiac's which just gives you the base MSRP red tag (this may have changed, admittedly). Plus, when talking to a woman at work earlier who I'm trying to sell a Torrent for LESS than a CRV (sad, isn't it?), she said "why does the Pontiac have a big incentive, and the Honda doesn't? Doesn't that mean the Pontiac is kinda crappy?" ARGH...but how can you argue with the logic?

3) Settle with the UAW. This, to me, is probably the only thing on my Top 10 list that has a snowball's chance in hell of happening. #4 will still be happening when hell freezes over.

2) Tell Maximum Bob and Rick that we need those "gotta have cars" as soon as possible, so could ya step on it a little?? ;) Oh yeah...don't cheapen their image by throwing an $8,500 rebate on it at intro, either. Learn from Ford...the 500 had only a $500 rebate until Employee Pricing. And yes, they lost some sales, but they probably actually made $$ on it. Plus, they didn't hurt the resale value of it either.

And #1 on the list of "the Plan..." (does that phrase make your hair stand on end? It does mine...)

1) Do you really want the quality message to be heard? Do you want people to really take a chance on your product? Do you want to get rid of the rebate cycle? Do you want to have a competitive advantage that won't cost you that much, assuming your car is screwed together as well as you say it is?

5/60 bumper to bumper + 10/100 powertrain. Across the board. Starting tomorrow. If I can get this on a $10k Accent, why the hell does a $32k Grand Prix GXP get 3/36? How can a dealer defend this?

In a word? We can't. How far would Hyundai have gotten without that damn warranty? They'd probably be back in Korea by now...instead, they're opening up manufacturing here, and even have Toyota bumping forward the launch date of their '07 Camry, for fear of losing too many sales to the new Sonata.


If you read this far, I applaud you. I am not saying I have all the answers, or any answers for that matter. This is one GM die-hard expressing an ever-growing concern over a company that literally made him a car nut. I have loved GM products, only owned GM products, and have sold a few hundred new GM products over a 5 year timespan (for some reason, I seem to have an uncanny luck at selling more far more used than new when compared to other salespeople at our dealership, but I digress). GM also happens to make products that I can stand behind, and would be proud to own. I could easily see myself purchasing, and enjoying for many years, a GXP. A MC SS. An Impala SS. A Silverado (I'm a closet Z71 stepside reg cab fan :D ). A Corvette. Anything with a Caddy logo on it. A G6 GTP 6 speed. I'm not just a GM fanboy...these are cars I'd be proud to own based on their merits as quality products.

I know GM people read boards like this. Rather than argue over the doom and gloom we always seem to mull over on this board, I thought it would be interesting to compile a list of things that really could make a difference for the company many of us want to see succeed. My apologies if I made anyone puke with the title of this thread, but I couldn't help it :D

Oh and Scott, remember...no black Suburbans :cool: :D

I'm at school working on a project right now, so I'll add my own thoughts later, but for now I have to say good job Jason, each point you made makes sense to me and should be looked at.

great job Jason. i'm with you on this one. the ideas sound really good.

and seeing how stars posted acclaim too, i think this might strike a nerve with the "youth" on this board.

GM takes away rebates, they will likely loose 25% in sales on people who normally trade in with negative equity. Not saying that is not a good thing...but I know many GM dealers make sales by burying negtive equity with rebates. Take the rebate away, and you take a buyer out the market.

they need to set MSRP at accual sale price... and they need to keep adjusting the MSRP until the accual sale price is almost equal to the MSRP...

7) Give Buick a car that is so much in the spirit of the 300, rather than the LeSabre, that people actually want to visit a Buick store. Hint: I walked by a Lucerne last night at the local Buick dealer. $36k, fully loaded. Question: Why is a remote start optional on a V8 Lucerne, yet standard on a GP GT? Standard on a Malibu LT? The mind wanders...I like this one, a Big Buick, 300-style...hmmmmm....And yeah, why is remote start optional on a GM Flagship car?????????
Great points!...

Lots of great & well thought out points Jason! :bow:

GM takes away rebates, they will likely loose 25% in sales on people who normally trade in with negative equity. Not saying that is not a good thing...but I know many GM dealers make sales by burying negtive equity with rebates. Take the rebate away, and you take a buyer out the market.

But there are a few items that negate this:

1. GM will probally make up the cash (or the majority of it) accepting that reduction, which would be temporary for the most part.

2.That negative equity doesn't disappear. I'm sure there are some people out there that will run perpetually larger debt till the day they die, but most everyone else will reach a point where they realize they are in too deep & stop.

3. Chrysler (stealing an idea from BMW of all places) provides much cheaper free maintenence and gas, which is more of an attention getter than yet another cash back rebate.

GM takes away rebates, they will likely loose 25% in sales on people who normally trade in with negative equity. Not saying that is not a good thing...but I know many GM dealers make sales by burying negtive equity with rebates. Take the rebate away, and you take a buyer out the market.

Theory: With less rebates, resale value would improve. Years ago, Grand Ams and Grand Prixs had a decent resale value. Now, compared to a comparable Honda or Toyota, they're awful (although, Grand Prix GTs and GTPs do seem to do better than their cheaper siblings). If resale was better, people wouldn't be as likely to be upside down in their trades.

I don't advocate getting rid of ALL rebates...Scott himself said you couldn't do it, and I agree with him entirely. But, does a G6 need a $2,000 rebate PLUS red tag discounts to sell? Hell no.

But could it use a better warranty? Could Pontiac spread the word better about it winning Strategic Vision's total quality award (I know, I know...not as reputable as a JD Power IQ or 3 year survey, but its something!!)? Absolutely.

I guess I want more people to want GM products for the attributes they have...not because they are the K Mart blue light specials of the automotive world.

Good stuff there, Jason. More typing than I'd care to do though. ;)

Let me add afew thoughts if I may.

-Value pricing should seem like a great value. IOW, lower the price on certain products to reflect actual selling price...at least until those "gotta have" products come online. Would anyone really spend over $31K on a Monte Carlo SS?

-Saturn. I know they have a certain appeal to a certain segment, that other GM divisions don't have. OK, that's an advantage. But it really burns me up to see it transconfiguring into the 21st century Oldsmobile right in front of my very eyes. Me personally, I wish it were Olds instead of Saturn. Too late for that though, and it's a shame.

-Saab. Maybe I'm not that huge of a SAAB fan, but it's obvious to me that Saabs have lost alittle something under GM. Yes, they're probably better cars and correct me if I'm wrong...but I think they're selling in higher volumes...but they appear to have lost much of their Saab-ness to me. Not quite as quirky or offbeat,( in a sporty kind of way, of course), as they used to be. I used to know people who considered themselves Saab enthusiasts, can't say that I've run into any in a long time. I'm not really sure what the point of buying a car brand is, if you plan to ultimately expunge most of it's character.

Good stuff Jason!

I had my own little "moment" earlier today when I opened a letter from the GM Card encouraging me to "free" some of my accumulated earnings. This is the letter I sent them in response.

November 29, 2005

General Motors of Canada Limited
1908 Colonel Sam Drive
Oshawa, ON L1H 8P7
Mail Code: CA1-169-008

Attention: Susan Walker, Marketing Manager, The GM Card

Dear Susan Walker,

"... and over 200 vehicles to choose from, it will be easy to find a vehicle that's perfect for you."

That is a logical conclusion, isn't it? Unfortunately it's not the case.

I'm a huge fan of RWD, V8 coupes and convertibles with manual transmissions. In fact, I own 2 of them now, both 1999 Chevrolet Camaros, one a convertible, the other a hardtop. The convertible, which now has 120,000 kilometers on it, is ready to retire to a less active roll in our transportation portfolio. Unfortunately, it seems GM has overlooked manufacturing an appropriate replacement.

My wife, on the other hand, has really not been happy with any of our vehicles since 1996 when we traded off our 160,000 kilometer 1988 GMC Jimmy 2 door. Small SUV's have been getting bigger, sprouting doors and loosing valuable features like fold flat and flush rear seats and tailgates have been replaced with heavy liftgates. We are desperate to replace our '02 Envoy, a vehicle that has been the least satisfying we have ever owned, but have resigned ourselves to living with "the devil we know" until something really compelling comes along. I had thought the new HHR would fit the bill, unfortunately, the lack of AWD, a really loud turn signal and poor sight lines killed that idea about fifty feet into our test drive.

As you can see, we're doing our part, collecting GM Card Earnings, and keeping our eye on GM product. Now it's GM's turn to start offering compelling product.

Yours truly,

Art Schroeder
c/o CIC Inc.
865 Wall Street
Winnipeg MB R3G 2T9

(204)988-2191
art.schroeder@gmail.com

p.s. This cloud may have a silver lining. I'll be in Detroit during the NAIAS press days as a guest of GM to view the unveiling of a product that may address one of my product concerns. I suspect I'll be "freeing" some of my Card Earnings just as soon as that product is available at Chevrolet dealerships!

Good stuff there, Jason. More typing than I'd care to do though. ;)

Let me add afew thoughts if I may.

-Value pricing should seem like a great value. IOW, lower the price on certain products to reflect actual selling price...at least until those "gotta have" products come online. Would anyone really spend over $31K on a Monte Carlo SS?

-Saturn. I know they have a certain appeal to a certain segment, that other GM divisions don't have. OK, that's an advantage. But it really burns me up to see it transconfiguring into the 21st century Oldsmobile right in front of my very eyes. Me personally, I wish it were Olds instead of Saturn. Too late for that though, and it's a shame.


-Saab. Maybe I'm not that huge of a SAAB fan, but it's obvious to me that Saabs have lost alittle something under GM. Yes, they're probably better cars and correct me if I'm wrong...but I think they're selling in higher volumes...but they appear to have lost much of their Saab-ness to me. Not quite as quirky or offbeat,( in a sporty kind of way, of course), as they used to be. I used to know people who considered themselves Saab enthusiasts, can't say that I've run into any in a long time. I'm not really sure what the point of buying a car brand is, if you plan to ultimately expunge most of it's character.

Regarding the typing, what can I say...I get going on something, and the fingers just go :D As for Olds, watching them go from being my favorite GM division (Alero > Grand Am, Intrigue = Grand Prix, Aurora way > any Bonneville ever made) to dead almost brought a tear to my eye. In 2001, even after the announcement in December 2000, Olds' were flying off our lot. It was amazing. Aleros were going into the hands of import owners, domestic loyalists, and everyone in between. Auroras were THE car if you wanted domestic luxury/performance, or at least that's how it seemed. My dealership's Olds franchise dated back to 1941 or so...Pontiac came in 20 years later. The same guy still owns it, and still wears his Oldsmobile embroidered polo shirts and sweaters. He owns 2 Intrigues and an Aurora 4.0, while his wife drives a Final 500 Bravada. This family ate (literally), lived and died by Olds. Our Olds sign is STILL up...none of us can figure out why he won't make the call to have our new Pontiac sign put up. Its like the passing of an era for this 78 year old, I guess. I know one thing...Olds had a lot of potential, and scuttled a whole ton of buyers between the mid '80s and 2000.

I was thinking about what you said about the MC the other day, as you brought that up in another thread. Indeed, $31k is nuts, especially when a GTO is $34k. But, what IS a good price? $27k? $26k? In a land of $24K Honda CR-Vs, what is a V8, loaded sporty coupe worth? I just don't know...

I only have one comment...

Captain Chaos was "Cannonball Run" not "Smokey and the Bandit". :D


Otherwise, great read! :bow:

I only have one comment...

Captain Chaos was "Cannonball Run" not "Smokey and the Bandit". :D


Otherwise, great read! :bow:


him didn't want to be the one to say it. him thinks you did a good job noticing that mistake. him is pleased. dun dun dunnnnnnnnnn

Damnit!!! :D You're both right...crud :D

Don't ask me why, but everytime I saw a Buickman thread, "Dun Dun DUNNNNN" went through my head, like he was swooping in to save the day. Anyway, now that I've helped in the derailment of my thread, nice work gentlemen :)

poSSum,
That's an excellent letter...hope it actually has some effect on someone in the food chain, somewhere. Glad to hear you're heading to NAIAS as well! I wondered if you were one of the ones selected...see ya there :D

I look forward to some comments regarding "the Plan" (cringing again). Unlike my superhero colleague, I present none of this as fact...just observation and opinion. Like I said, I could be entirely off base...but it all makes sense to me.

You will probably get a cease and desist letter for using "return to greatness" as the post title!!

My 2 cents .... Canadian at that ... on "the plan". :rolleyes:

Pre-amble: I KNOW I couldn't run a used car lot ... I'd like have to deal with people. My perspective also comes from the Canadian prairie, so it may not translate well into mainstream America.

10) Agreed. Market the product, not "the deal".

9) They've got it right here. Brand alignment is already in place, GM dealers present a very nice "face".

8) Yup. With Saturn going "Euro" Saab is a waste of resources.

7) Yes and no. I've always looked at Buick as the "sleeper" division and liked it that way. Give 'em the product to take on the 300, but keep it visually understated.

6) In their current condition, I'm in favour of GM selling a controlling stake in GMAC. You can't borrow money for lending purposes at junk bond rates and make any decent return on it. Someone much more informed than me would have to chime in with how the spread would change. I'm thinking GM might actually not lose much return with a better rate spread.

5) I like Bob just the way he is. I'll like him even more if he sends a jar of his bitter orange marmalade to the auction in Bowling Green next year. ;)

4) How do you recan an open can of worms? With a bigger can. This is a really tough one. I consider myself an "informed" consumer, yet other than accepting the fact thay I may pay near MSRP for my 5th gen, there is not a chance that I would buy a GM product between "incentive programs" in todays market. It's going to be a long, hard road to wean the consumer from "the deal".

3) Easier said than done. But it will either get done, or GM will follow Delphi down the Chapter 11 road.

2) Agreed, plus ... shut up about product & technology that is more than 6 months out. How long did GM yap about DOD before you could actually buy a vehicle with it ....whereas AFAIK DC just matter of factly had it on the 300 and Magnum when they were introduced.

1) Agreed. That would send a strong message.

I'm starting to look at the "opportunity cost" of vehicles quite seriously. When we only had one, replacing it every 3 years was pretty much a no brainer. With 4 in the fleet, there is real cost involved. As I see it for us, every new vehicle we buy costs roughly 1 year of retirement. From that perspective the product needs to be extremely compelling for me to make that trade.

You will probably get a cease and desist letter for using "return to greatness" as the post title!!
Yeah, I think it's trademarked, since it's the ONLY solution to GM's problems.

Our 4Runner is only 3yr/36k miles too, though the powertrain is 5yr/60k which I guess is nice, but I'd like to see ALL car companies that are not already, do at least 5yr/60k B to B and 8yr/100k powertrain. To all car companies: put your money where your mouth is next time you tell us your cars are 'most reliable' or what not.

I was thinking about what you said about the MC the other day, as you brought that up in another thread. Indeed, $31k is nuts, especially when a GTO is $34k. But, what IS a good price? $27k? $26k? In a land of $24K Honda CR-Vs, what is a V8, loaded sporty coupe worth? I just don't know...

That's a good question. I'm not sure. I guess low enough to compell me to buy one. Now, if it were a "gotta have" product to me, I'd be FAR less price sensitive. But let's not kid ourselves....very few people will consider it a "gotta have". Honestly, subtract the LS4, and I'd consider it a large 2 door appliance.

Ok, here goes....pretty well equipped LTZ V6 for $23K, pretty well equipped SS V8 for $25K.

The sad reality of it is... (if I remember correctly) the last time I read something that stated the average selling price for a new vehicle... it was $28,500.

That makes the price seem pretty much in line for a V8 Monte SS, actually.

If anyone has a link to what the actual average selling price is, that'd be great. I am just going from memory, but I am 90-95% sure I am right on, or pretty close with that number.

The sad reality of it is... (if I remember correctly) the last time I read something that stated the average selling price for a new vehicle... it was $28,500.

That makes the price seem pretty much in line for a V8 Monte SS, actually.

If anyone has a link to what the actual average selling price is, that'd be great. I am just going from memory, but I am 90-95% sure I am right on, or pretty close with that number.

I actually thought it was 35k! Read that somewhere....

Darth, I think you're spot on with $28,500. It was $25k before the SUV boom really flourished, and it took off...but now its been down a little bit because the average transaction price for a domestic has DECREASED the last couple years, as incentives got too nuts. And yes, when you consider that, in my mind an MC SS is better than the "average" car sold, in terms of content and features.

But, Charlie, I agree with you on the "gotta have" nature of the MC. I think its a decent car, but its still dated in terms of exterior design. Last night, I saw an LT model at a gas station. The front looks good, but those sides are bland as all hell. Without the gfx and wheels of the SS, it looks so plain. They even deleted the bodyside moldings around '04, so it looks really plain now! Don't get me wrong...I like the car very much. When I sat in that black one at the New England auto show, I really liked it a lot. Its, how can I put this...my kind of car I guess, in terms of a daily driver. I'll sacrifice a little style for a lot of comfort, a big motor, and handling that can get me throught the stuff I throw at it with some verve and little drama. Oh yeah...make it 2 doors too, so I don't feel too old ;) I guess I feel a connection to the car because it is literally a newer, spiffed up version of my own Grand Prix...the best car I've owned. The only complaints I have with my car is the lack of power (but the butter-smoothness of the 3800 almost makes up for it...shoulda got a GTP) and an interior that gets more and more dated each year. I like the design, but the montone nature and the cheap, vinyl-like leather don't lend much to an exterior that I still believe is the best looking midsize GM has ever made.

But again, the whole price thing...what would it take to make me get rid of my GP for it? Probably $26k would make me do it, for a loaded car. Otherwise, where's the incentive to get rid of a car I'm very happy with? I think that's the biggest issue...its not "gotta have" enough to justify the price. At $22k, a base LS makes a great argument against smaller cars like a Fusion, Altima or G6. But at $31k? That's serious $$...

I never ever would have guessed that the average new vehicle purchase price was 28,500. I would have thought it was significantly lower, especially if we're talking post-negotiation prices.

Any stats on the average income of these new car buyers? I hope it's significantly higher than the national average household income or else people are being pretty irresponsible.

The sad reality of it is... (if I remember correctly) the last time I read something that stated the average selling price for a new vehicle... it was $28,500.

That makes the price seem pretty much in line for a V8 Monte SS, actually.

If anyone has a link to what the actual average selling price is, that'd be great. I am just going from memory, but I am 90-95% sure I am right on, or pretty close with that number.

I think the actual selling price is around the 28.5k you mentioned, but MSRP is north of $30k and has been for close to 2 years now. I remember reading an article back in early 04 talking about how msrp of new vehicles averaged over $30k with incentives/rebates bringing actual price down to around 27k.

I think the actual selling price is around the 28.5k you mentioned, but MSRP is north of $30k and has been for close to 2 years now. I remember reading an article back in early 04 talking about how msrp of new vehicles averaged over $30k with incentives/rebates bringing actual price down to around 27k.


Exactly, as I recall Guy mentioned it was 35k awhile ago. It stuck me as high and I looked it up. I did find an article online that confirmed it.

For marketing it would be nice to see them to make commmercials that comparing their car to the competitors in that class. Not just one little blub about more availiable torque then the ford(of course omitting the ford has more HP) but compare it on a lot of criteria

Compare an accord to a malibu.
Go down the list
Talk about how the malibu has more HP Put the numbers of the two on the screen
Next talk about how it gets better gas milage and put both numbers on the screen
Next talk about how it comes with side curtain airbags just like it's competitor
Next talk about how it's prices $200 less
At the end ask the question. Why would you buy anything else.

Now your saying but the malibu doesn't beat the honda in all these aspects.
BINGO, there's why your not selling it and the honda is.
If GM can't get on TV and compare all these aspects and convince themselves and others that their car is better using technical facts then they know exactly what they need to change on their car to make it match up until they can.

The other thing that would be a first and might make a good campaign is to get on TV saying something like
Remember in 1969 when a v8 was a $200 option.
Well now it is again...


It doesn't cost GM any more to put 3.23's in vs 2.73. They pay for metal and machining and labor which is the same for both. The same is true for a v6 vs a v8. Their cost is about the same. Of course they add a big mark up to the consumer and this is how they make their money. So the whole commercial they talk about how their sedan starts out at $19,450 and then at the bottom the fine print says $27,975 as shown.
Thats BU!!$hit. They need to focus on getting market share back right now so if they are making a profit on the car $22,000 they need to sell the car at 22K with the v8 with the better gears, with the leather seats. Then maybe someday in the future they can worry about fluffing up prices.
Can you imagine how damaging they would be to their competitors if they got on TV and talked about how silly it is for other companies to talk about A/C being standard anymore like anyone would buy a car without it, then going on to say wouldn't it be nice if you could expect power windows, power locks, alloy wheels to be standard.
Next say the impala starts at $19,500
Then below in big letters put "AS SHOWN $19,500"
Maybe even have a little base honda in the scene with a 13inch steel wheel have a hub cap fall off just then ;)

A lot of good ideas in here. I miss Olds as well. We were an olds family forever. Decent mileage ones are becoming hard to come by.

I'll agree with everything on the list.

Especially the quality thing.

Its GREAT that GM's quality has gone up, but they need to ANNOUNCE that news!
I had a chance to visit the Las Vegas Auto Show, and there was not one mention of it. GM should have had banners, signs....people f'ng singing it!

GM takes away rebates, they will likely loose 25% in sales on people who normally trade in with negative equity. Not saying that is not a good thing...but I know many GM dealers make sales by burying negtive equity with rebates. Take the rebate away, and you take a buyer out the market.

This post doesn't make any sense.

First of all, where did the 25% figure come from?

Secondly, it follows that GM attracts those with negative equity. Said another way, GM can only sell 25% of its cars to people who can't manage their money.

I don't believe that. If other manufacturers can make a profit without rebates, then GM oughtta be able to do so as well. I can think of three Asian automakers who make more profit than GM, while offering significantly fewer rebates.

Which sounds better:

(1)Sell quality cars at an affordable price.

- OR -

(2)Sell poor quality vehicles for more than they're worth - but offer rebates in hopes of appealing to those in debt.

In my opinion, justifying rebates justifies poor quality, bad management and lack of direction....which is where GM sits now.

Everytime I look at the title of this thread I crack up. Pontiacman :lol: :lol: :lol:

Say.....this gives me an idea...........;)

Everytime I look at the title of this thread I crack up. Pontiacman :lol: :lol: :lol:

Say.....this gives me an idea...........;)


Oh god, I am scared now!

Unlike my superhero colleague....

Pontiacman! It is I, CHEVROLEEEEET MANNNNNNNN. Together we will rid the board of Trolls, Whiners, and irrational car dealers whose only goal is to push their own agenda as hard as they push yet another Park Avenue down Grandpa's throat!

Follow me! Follow me to freedom!!

Pontiacman! It is I, CHEVROLEEEEET MANNNNNNNN. Together we will rid the board of Trolls, Whiners, and irrational car dealers whose only goal is to push their own agenda as hard as they push yet another Park Avenue down Grandpa's throat!

Follow me! Follow me to freedom!!


Is that you, CLEAN?

No, it is I...CHEVROLETMAN! I will champion YOUR cause, not my own! Join our group....you can henceforth be named......SLASHMAN!

God, it's worse than I feared :o

God, it's worse than I feared :o

Even superheroes have slow nights at work

Chevroletman! It is I, Pontiacman! Are you up for saving the GM from the bowels of despair? Come, let us join up with guion...we can name him Saturnman, and together we can stare at awe at the Malibu Maxx SS he is waxing poetic about in another thread...

Or, we can smoke the same crap he is, and get a tour of San Fransisco :D Clean is a superhero, and guion is drunk and lusting after Malibus. What's up with this board tonight?? :D

P.S....SLASHMAN??? WTF??? :D Clean, you and I have to get a few drinks when we're in Detroit. Apparently guion will be up for tagging along :D Join us too, Charlie :) That is, if you can deal with us!

This trip will be sweet...

Oh, I almost forgot...

Dun Dun DUNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN!!!!!!!!!!!

(I need sleep...)

At this rate of automotive intoxication, sounds like you guys are going to need "Bailman" to come rescue you from the evil clutches of "The Hall of Detox"

Chevroletman! It is I, Pontiacman! Are you up for saving the GM from the bowels of despair? Come, let us join up with guion...we can name him Saturnman, and together we can stare at awe at the Malibu Maxx SS he is waxing poetic about in another thread...

Or, we can smoke the same crap he is, and get a tour of San Fransisco :D Clean is a superhero, and guion is drunk and lusting after Malibus. What's up with this board tonight?? :D

P.S....SLASHMAN??? WTF??? :D Clean, you and I have to get a few drinks when we're in Detroit. Apparently guion will be up for tagging along :D Join us too, Charlie :) That is, if you can deal with us!

This trip will be sweet...

Ok, I'll drink with you guys, but only if you call me SLASHMAN. Maybe we can get some of that really nasty Merlot, Guy was just drinking. Maybe it'll make me think the Maxx SS is good looking too........

Chevroletman! It is I, Pontiacman! Are you up for saving the GM from the bowels of despair?

Chevroletman is up for saving GM from ALL types of BM's!!

Join us in the hotel bar MERLOTMAN! Only together, can we defeat the forces of evil and misinformation!

we can get some of that really nasty Merlot, Guy was just drinking
Grand Idea Slashman!!

I just said it in another thread but I'll say it again,

I LOVE THIS PLACE! :D

Grand Idea Slashman!!

:lol:


Alright, you're nuts!


BUT I'M DEFINITELY DRINKIN' WITH YOU GUYS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Oh. My. God.

What has Scott gotten himself into? Just have a Bud Light ready for me and I'm good. It's good Crispey is sober so he can work the lap top LOL

For some reason I made the grave mistake of checking this post at 7:50 AM, while brushing my teeth. I was laughing so hard, I spit toothpaste on my shirt and have to go change my shirt now. You guys are going to make me late for work! :D

JasonD, I have a request...when making up nametags for Charlie, CLEAN, myself and guion, underneath our screenames can we have Slashman, Chevroletman, Pontiacman and Merlotman also printed? :D

I wonder if we'll ever get back to my regularly scheduled thread :D

And Charlie, all I can say is...get ready :D

Can I have Z/28 Man????

reduce # of products

hire some fancy italian or german designers if that's what it takes

put out some cool looking cars besides the vette

find a way to train people so you don't have to pay them 95% of their salary as an unemployment benefit when you shut down a plant. you think they do that anywhere in the world except here?

Can I have Z/28 Man????

Absolutely, Douglas :D

can i be a superhero too????



like MECHANICMAN?????


or CAPTAIN CLUTCH??????














or even one of those thinly desguised sidekicks????????

Pontiacman, you an A+ for creativity. I wish GM had half of the imagination that you do.
Let's look at both sides here....GM's big plan revolves around big cuts. Since when did cutting American jobs result in anything positive? How is that supposed to save us from going down the tubes and increase our market share?

We used to be something great....a leader in the market place. Now if you are driving a GM product (aside from our higher ticket toys, i.e. vette and xlr) everyone knows that you are paying 199 a month, got $5000 off in rebates during the red tag/everyone gets GM discount/march madness/ art van-is-having-a-sale so, we better too, event. Nothing like those Lexus, Jag ads where you have the respect you deserve and you are desirable because you drive a luxury vehicle that holds it's value.

Got news for you....if something doesn't happen soon, with the market dropping...there will be no amount of Hail Mary's that will bring our beloved F-bodies back. Not to mention a desirable Buick. (Where is the Riviera and who wouldn't like to see a resurrected Grand National) Something supercharged in that line would be nice.

Long live Buickman!

Pontiacman, you an A+ for creativity. I wish GM had half of the imagination that you do.
Let's look at both sides here....GM's big plan revolves around big cuts. Since when did cutting American jobs result in anything positive? How is that supposed to save us from going down the tubes and increase our market share?

We used to be something great....a leader in the market place. Now if you are driving a GM product (aside from our higher ticket toys, i.e. vette and xlr) everyone knows that you are paying 199 a month, got $5000 off in rebates during the red tag/everyone gets GM discount/march madness/ art van-is-having-a-sale so, we better too, event. Nothing like those Lexus, Jag ads where you have the respect you deserve and you are desirable because you drive a luxury vehicle that holds it's value.

Got news for you....if something doesn't happen soon, with the market dropping...there will be no amount of Hail Mary's that will bring our beloved F-bodies back. Not to mention a desirable Buick. (Where is the Riviera and who wouldn't like to see a resurrected Grand National) Something supercharged in that line would be nice.

Long live Buickman!

Sounds like BM has an alias (or a wife)!

You know, I thought the same thing when I read that :D

turbo,
Just remember, like my Kindergarten teacher always said, if you put your mind to it, you can be ANYTHING you want to be :)

I mean, look at me...I sell Pontiacs :) Wait a minute.... :D

Sounds like BM has an alias (or a wife)!

I've never seen BM post about dusting off the GN or Riveria nameplates, something that anyone who is passionate about Buick or knows the brand equity that these models have would see as a good marketing strategy.

You know, I thought the same thing when I read that :D

turbo,
Just remember, like my Kindergarten teacher always said, if you put your mind to it, you can be ANYTHING you want to be :)

I mean, look at me...I sell Pontiacs :) Wait a minute.... :D


then MECHANICMAN it is.....dun dun DUNNNNNNNNNN!!!!!!!!!









and as for jennadoll.........could be a daughter.........or a very disturbed man who has sniffed way too many Buick interiors. :D :p

Sounds like BM has an alias (or a wife)!


I believe it is his daughter.

I certainly hope this wasn't a thinly disguised "plant" for us to buy into on the site... :think: :o

I think she used to sell at Suski under him, but I do not see her listed on Suski's website anymore.

She is noted (Jenna Dollinger) at the bottom of this page on his website.

http://www.jdollinger.com/ContactJim/index.cfm

It is I, CHEVROLET MAN! CHEVROLET MAN will defeat ALL elements of BMism! Learn this lesson well my dear, or suffer your fathers fate...you will!

http://web.camaross.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3468458&postcount=9

If you would like to post heroic tales of Camaro ownership, future vehicles, ect, then WELCOME. IF you are nothing more than a mouthpiece for BM, who has recently been sent to "Banned Camp", you can probably expect to join him there soon.

TO NAIAS, and beyooooooooooooooooooooond!!!!!

It is I, CHEVROLET MAN! CHEVROLET MAN will defeat ALL elements of BMism! Learn this lesson well my dear, or suffer your fathers fate...you will!

you went from Yoda..........



TO NAIAS, and beyooooooooooooooooooooond!!!!!

.........to Buzz Lightyear in the same post!

someone should make a comic book documenting the tales of the Fanatic Four: Chevrolet Man, Pontiacman, Slashman, and Merlotman at NAIAS!!!!!

I'm not trying to hide who I am. However, I live in Orlando, I don't work for BM and I have ideas and thoughts of my own. Which, I didn't say anything harmful towards anyone in a negitive manner. I love F-body's, and I have owned and driven many GM products. So, as for bannishment, I don't see proper grounds.

I didn't say that I agree/disagree with everything he has said, but I like the main idea: GM needs help and someone to save the day whether it's BM or PM, GM needs help.

welcome, Jenna!

What year is your Camaro or Firebird and is this the first one you've had?

I don't think anyone plans to ban you.......at least I don' think so......and until there are grounds to do so, we're glad you're here.

I'd like to be able to agree with Buickman and in fact have emailed him several times with my thoughts......but unfortunately he really doesn't want to listen. Then I got the following:

(and I quote) If Wagoner isn't removed the company is doomed anyway. A national strike to change management would shake things up and hopefully right the course. Until GM dumps the disastrous marketing the slide will continue. How many times, and for how many years, have we been told "just wait the new product will save us". Please don't get me wrong, product is important. However, it's not the product killing GM, it's the upper management who do not understand how to sell cars. I do, they won't listen. Therefore they must go. It's really that simple. To those of you who disbelieve I ask, what would be wrong with trying a comprehensive plan from one of the top GM salesmen of all time? Don't argue that I don't understand manufacturing, or can't run a multinational enterprise. Those points are irrelevant. It really comes down to being able to move the metal. Return to Greatness has no upfront investment and will lower expenses. Still GM won't listen. I had a deal made with LaNeve until Wagoner killed it. There must be a reason, and I believe they want to close all domestic unionized production. It's the Creed of Greed. That's why I am calling for a national strike by the UAW. (unquote)

He's kidding, right?

Not only is this the quickest way to disaster, but it would probably take several companies with it.......

And the part that makes me really laugh? " Don't argue that I don't understand manufacturing, or can't run a multinational enterprise. Those points are irrelevant"

Now.....I will address something you posted earlier....about why GM should not downsize.........

See.......it's like this: there is no level playing field in the 'world economy'...don't believe me? Go look at what tarriffs are assigned to U.S. cars and trucks when they hit foreign soil. And: GM, Ford, and DCX are saddled with contracts....UAW contracts. You may note that 'transplants' are not. I don't want to see any UAW member lose a cent...or any benefit...but see, herein lies the problem.......you can't sustain contracts that make you the high cost producer. And.....with the pie (U.S. Market) staying about the same....but many more manufacturers and brands coming into the market, guess what? Ford and GM and DCX are going to get smaller pieces of the pie.....esp. when it isn't a level playing field.

I am not picking on you.....rather, I'm just trying to point out a few things about this industry that people either tend to forget....or never knew to begin with.

I want to eventually retire at GM.......and if I thought for one moment that Buickman was the answer, I'd be right behind him screaming just as loud. But, I believe his plan has many serious flaws......and so do others on this board.........and within the industry.

oh yes....one other thing........the Red Tag Sale..........it should be noted that this year-end event was agreed to by the GM National Dealer Council. They were upset that business dropped way off....and TVP wasn't getting the immediate results that they wanted...... Most of those dealers are very very successful dealers.......in markets where there is no captive audience.

Interesting story: We took a couple of 'superstars' from Michigan and gave them stores in Metro New York....and guess what? They left within 18 months! So, see.......there's a difference between selling cars in the lower peninsula of Michigan.....and selling cars in New York or Los Angeles.........

Originally Posted by Red Planet:
See.......it's like this: there is no level playing field in the 'world economy'...don't believe me? Go look at what tarriffs are assigned to U.S. cars and trucks when they hit foreign soil. And: GM, Ford, and DCX are saddled with contracts....UAW contracts. You may note that 'transplants' are not. I don't want to see any UAW member lose a cent...or any benefit...but see, herein lies the problem.......you can't sustain contracts that make you the high cost producer. And.....with the pie (U.S. Market) staying about the same....but many more manufacturers and brands coming into the market, guess what? Ford and GM and DCX are going to get smaller pieces of the pie.....esp. when it isn't a level playing field.With GM being one of the World's Largest Auto Manufacturing Groups, if not "The Largest", Are they Lobbying HARD to get the "Trade Agreements" changed?
As well as Ford, DCX and many other U.S. manufacturers ?
And, a lot of the jobs lost to date have been due to attrition, but with most Baby-Boomers retiring, or retired, downsizing IS hitting the next generation, with No Retirement to fall back onto. The resulting higher wage jobs lost to this trade deficit driven strategies, will hurt the Pie size, more and more...

It seems more resources are focused on damage control, rather than prevention.

With GM being one of the World's Largest Auto Manufacturing Groups, if not "The Largest", Are they Lobbying HARD to get the "Trade Agreements" changed?


You have to be careful how hard you push, because those same foreign economies that are benefiting from putting tarriffs on US car imports also finance our deficit spending economy though the purchase of US Treasuries.

Red planet,
I enjoyed reading what you posted. I did learn some new information.
It's refreshing to hear and educated comment on what is relevant to GM's standing in the marketplace. If you were top dog and could call the shots, what would you do to fix GM?

We just sold our F-body, 98 Camaro SS, black with T-tops, I was very sad to see it go. But, it wasn't the first and won't be the last.