GMs camaro problem

GMs big problem with a new camaro is CAFE. GM can not build any more cars which will hurt the CAFE because they need to sell big SUVs that also hurt their CAFE but adds profit to their bottom line. fords mustangs do not hurt ford that much because they sell a lot of V-6 ones but you can bet that if GM comes out with a camaro most all buyers will want the LS-2 or bigger engine because to most people the camaro is the poor mans corvette

:no:

Swing and a miss

Thats ok, because a LS4 or LS2 will get better EPA rating than the V6 car;)

Thats ok, because a LS4 or LS2 will get better EPA rating than the V6 car;)

lets hope they dont put a v6 in the base camaro...

lets hope they dont put a v6 in the base camaro...

I saw a 4th Gen Ram AIR TA at one of the Detroit auto shows Pontiac display a few years back with a supercharged 3800 in it.
I would have purchased one in a heartbeat.

That is not even a issue where the Camaro is concerned . The LSx engines deliver in some cases better fuel mileage than 6 cyl. cars they sell in huge volumes . GM is not currently hurting on the CAFE standards :)

Metal - Which car was that , I'm having trouble remebering . There was a 97 red ram air Formula , and a 97 black ram air TA . One had the S/C 3800 and one had the mini-cube LT1 . I think it was the Formy that had the S/C 3800 . Couple of cool one off oddballs in Pontiac history , thats for sure .

While all of us will buy v8's, GM will most likely sell more v6's to the masses like Ford's Stang.

Let the masses buy v6s while enthusiasts buy v8's;)

Without the V6, the car does not exist.

lets hope they dont put a v6 in the base camaro...


Why? The car will NOT sell with a V8 alone. Just look at the GTO.

4L Eaton V6 please.

The creator of this thread obviously keeps very up to date with what is going on in the 5th gen community on this forum.

Yes...

The GTO sells fine. Its not ment to blow through any sales records, unless you look at how many Monaro's are actualy made for Aussie consuption compared to GTO's for America....then you could see that Holden imports about 3 times the amount of GTO's here then it sells in Down Under.

3.9 VVt V6 making 250ish hp, or if its budgetable, do the 3.6 DOHC with D/I and make 270hp with regular octane. I would be very upset if the V6 has to take high octane, and so will others.

While all of us will buy v8's, GM will most likely sell more v6's to the masses like Ford's Stang.

Let the masses buy v6s while enthusiasts buy v8's;)

Hey now, some of us V6'ers are enthusiasts too;) I cant help it the insurance bigots have kept me out of a Z28 for so long. But not for much longer, as has been announced in the sig :D

Yes...

The GTO sells fine. Its not ment to blow through any sales records, unless you look at how many Monaro's are actualy made for Aussie consuption compared to GTO's for America....then you could see that Holden imports about 3 times the amount of GTO's here then it sells in Down Under.

3.9 VVt V6 making 250ish hp, or if its budgetable, do the 3.6 DOHC with D/I and make 270hp with regular octane. I would be very upset if the V6 has to take high octane, and so will others.

If it sells so great. Why did GM cut production for 05? Exactly.

The Mustang sells 100K units a year but the GTO can barely sell 12K.

If it sells so great. Why did GM cut production for 05? Exactly.

The Mustang sells 100K units a year but the GTO can barely sell 12K.
Considering the Mustang has a V6 variant, comes in many different trim options and prices, you really don't have to look hard to see why something like that would sell more than a "fully-loaded only" V8 high hp, sports car.

I wouldn't buy a V6 Camaro, but I'm not dead set against them making one. There are many young entry level buyers who would, especially in school.
Just, I hope, it's not a lame version of a weak powerplant like the 2.8L of past.
I hope it's a V6 with some nuts and has an induction/exhaust that's Camaro specific, ie; High OutPut!...

I wouldn't buy a V6 Camaro, but I'm not dead set against them making one. There are many young entry level buyers who would, especially in school.
Just, I hope, it's not a lame version of a weak powerplant like the 2.8L of past.
I hope it's a V6 with some nuts and has an induction/exhaust that's Camaro specific, ie; High OutPut!...
If you ask me, the 3.8 making 200 was plenty for most people. I drove my buddy's and it wasn't bad. Even my dad's 3.4 is decent.
But yea, the 2.8 and 3.1 were the dark years in Camaro V6 history. :no: ;)

Look no further than the 2nd and 3rd gen to see that very flexible options sell cars . And in the 3rd gen years when the Iroc got quite pricey , the slow LO3 5.0 powered RS outsold em all :)

Don't forget that the next generation of trucks that come out will also have much better mileage that will help to balance our the CAFE standards...

But yea, the 2.8 and 3.1 were the dark years in Camaro V6 history. :no: ;)

The 2.5L OHV 4 cylinder was standard for a few years in the early 1980's.

The 2.5L OHV 4 cylinder was standard for a few years in the early 1980's.
Yea, well, it goes without saying the 4 cylinder years were dark altogether. ;)

I hope whatever engine is in there, they engineer it to be aftermarket and repair freindly. Room for CAI kits, turbo or SC, and for changing spark plugs(if used) headers, heads etc...

(I remember the 1st 4cyl Camaro I ever saw, it was a sad day..a white 2.5L/4spd, no GFX and I beleive 14" wheels.)

I wouldn't buy a V6 Camaro, but I'm not dead set against them making one. There are many young entry level buyers who would, especially in school.
Just, I hope, it's not a lame version of a weak powerplant like the 2.8L of past.
I hope it's a V6 with some nuts and has an induction/exhaust that's Camaro specific, ie; High OutPut!...


If GM does the V6 like i hope they do. It should do low low 14's.

If GM does the V6 like i hope they do. It should do low low 14's.
The GXP might get jealous.:D

It would, be neat if a modded New V6 Camaro could get into the 13's...
If they'll raise the peak hp rpm, gear it accordingly, sacrificing just a little low end torque, it could be a real fun daily driver! :cool:
I'd like to see at least 275hp, torque could be lower at around 255lbft...it'd hook better, and rev out good too.

I don't see the need for a very powerful V6. If you want the power, get the base V8 that has roughly the same mileage.
I know a lot of parents who would buy their kids these cars for their sporty image might not want their kid having 275 hp itching to get loose under their right foot.
And I sure as heck wouldn't want them on the road with all that either. :)

So when GM comes up with an LS derivative V8 with DoD that get's better mileage than the competitions' V6; plus has double the horsepower, fuel efficiency minded folks are still going to scream for a V6 just because they assume it'll get better mileage because it has fewer cylinders?

:rolleyes:

So when GM comes up with an LS derivative V8 with DoD that get's better mileage than the competitions' V6; plus has double the horsepower, fuel efficiency minded folks are still going to scream for a V6 just because they assume it'll get better mileage because it has fewer cylinders?

:rolleyes:

Probably, simply because most people are too dumb to look up the facts, and will assume the 6 will be more economical.

Funny you mention that. Our Impala gets better hwy mileage than the 3.9 below it, and I thought it was a fantastic selling point. The wife had already decided on the SS, but when I told her that, she was even happier.

I wonder if the F-Body would still be around today if they had used the Blown 3800 in the F-Body's from 98 on.

If it sells so great. Why did GM cut production for 05? Exactly.

The Mustang sells 100K units a year but the GTO can barely sell 12K.

Several reasons.
1. They only intended to build 18,000 the first year.
2. The GTO price is more expensive than the 100,000 units
of Mustangs Ford sells.
3. Poor marketing on GM's part and some say styling thats too subdued.

This year, if you have kept up with it, the sales of the Goat have been much
better. I think the visual enhancements helped along with the fact that people began to see the car in person are were much more impressed with it.

If it sells so great. Why did GM cut production for 05? Exactly.

The Mustang sells 100K units a year but the GTO can barely sell 12K.

Several reasons.
1. They only intended to build 18,000 the first year.
2. The GTO price is more expensive than the 100,000 units
of Mustangs Ford sells.
3. Poor marketing on GM's part and some say styling thats too subdued.

This year, if you have kept up with it, the sales of the Goat have been much
better. I think the visual enhancements helped along with the fact that people began to see the car in person are were much more impressed with it.

As to production cut, it was my understanding that they didn't intend on building
as many 05's in the first place. The production didn't start till late, as to the exact date I would have to refer you to ls1gto.com and they could tell you.

The biggest reason they need to offer a V6 is, Insurance...The younger buyers, who can help promote this new Camaro bigtime, need affordable insurance. Not to mention, parents will buy a 6 before an 8 for them, b/c of perception, same power or not.
And with it down on torque compared to the LSx's, it'll be more forgiving, when they stab the throttle!..:D
And they can sell more affordable, non-Z rated wheel/tire/suspension combo's on them, making them more affordable, and more all season freindly.

The biggest reason they need to offer a V6 is, Insurance...The younger buyers, who can help promote this new Camaro bigtime, need affordable insurance. Not to mention, parents will buy a 6 before an 8 for them, b/c of perception, same power or not.

Younger buyers don't deserve a new Camaro. I couldn't afford the insurance on a Camaro until I turned 30, so I waited. Let them wait or buy used. :D

But, if mommy and daddy can afford to buy junior a new Camaro, then mommy and daddy can afford the additional insurance on a V8. :p

There are plenty of kids out there who just love these cars. I bought my first camaro (79 z 350/4-speed) when I was 15 years old. Then when i was a sr. in highschool I bought a 95 z. It was 4 years old but it was new to me. It was easy to pay for because cars were all I ever wanted to spend money on. Today I have a few more bills but I still have the 95 and I am looking to build a stroker for it and I will still buy a new Z as soon as they come to town no matter what state farm says.

Younger buyers don't deserve a new Camaro. I couldn't afford the insurance on a Camaro until I turned 30, so I waited. Let them wait or buy used. :D


HEY!!!!!!!!!! :mad: i've had 4 F-bodys so far and i'm only 25, and i paid every dime of insurance on all of them :p :D

As to production cut, it was my understanding that they didn't intend on building
as many 05's in the first place. The production didn't start till late, as to the exact date I would have to refer you to ls1gto.com and they could tell you.

Not only didn't it start until late, but they cut it early so they could start 06 production early to line up with the model years. That's why they cut sales back to 12k for 05.

Chris

Younger buyers don't deserve a new Camaro. I couldn't afford the insurance on a Camaro until I turned 30, so I waited. Let them wait or buy used. :D

I bought my 2000 Camaro V6 brand new when I was 20, my 2002 Trans Am WS6 brand new when I was 21 and my 2004 GTO brand new at 24.

And I paid for all of them myself. I couldn't afford the V8 when I got the Camaro so I got the V6. It was a nice option I was quite happy with and is one of the reasons I ended up in a V8. If it hadn't been available who knows what I would have been driving. V6 is necessary.

Chris

Younger buyers don't deserve a new Camaro. I couldn't afford the insurance on a Camaro until I turned 30, so I waited. Let them wait or buy used.

But, if mommy and daddy can afford to buy junior a new Camaro, then mommy and daddy can afford the additional insurance on a V8.
I hear you, I got married barely in my 20's, and couldn't afford it either.
But some, in their 20's, live at home, don't pay any bills, buy new cars and modd 'em like crazy.
And I knew more than a few guys in high school, who got a new Camaro/Firebird for graduation...I wasn't so lucky tho.:cry:

I wonder if the F-Body would still be around today if they had used the Blown 3800 in the F-Body's from 98 on.
Im guessing that there would be no way it would still be around, because the engines had absolutely no bearing on the cars demise. GM simply didnt do anything to keep the car around anymore, cuz they didnt really want it.

GMs big problem with a new camaro is CAFE. GM can not build any more cars which will hurt the CAFE because they need to sell big SUVs that also hurt their CAFE but adds profit to their bottom line. fords mustangs do not hurt ford that much because they sell a lot of V-6 ones but you can bet that if GM comes out with a camaro most all buyers will want the LS-2 or bigger engine because to most people the camaro is the poor mans corvette

Car CAFE and truck/SUV CAFE are 2 different regulations.

I think when you have a 190 mph Corvette that gets 30mpg on the highway, and a 3700 pound, 400 horse GTO that gets better fuel economy than the top Honda Accord V6, I don't think CAFE numbers are a big problem. ;)

GMs big problem with a new camaro is CAFE. GM can not build any more cars which will hurt the CAFE because they need to sell big SUVs that also hurt their CAFE but adds profit to their bottom line. fords mustangs do not hurt ford that much because they sell a lot of V-6 ones but you can bet that if GM comes out with a camaro most all buyers will want the LS-2 or bigger engine because to most people the camaro is the poor mans corvette


wrong.......

INteresting Tidbit....the LS1 engines in the 98-02 Camaro and Firebird were CAFE Positive...which means they HELPED the corp. hit numbers.

What makes you think EPA numbers will go backward on a 5th gen?

Ever hear of "Displacement on Demand?"

Further, CAFE Average for Trucks/SUVs is separate from passenger cars.

This thread is the stuff that "urban legends" is made of!

(not to flame you.......I just don't think you understand CAFE and fuel economy figures that the LSx engines are capable of....)

wrong.......

INteresting Tidbit....the LS1 engines in the 98-02 Camaro and Firebird were CAFE Positive...which means they HELPED the corp. hit numbers.

What makes you think EPA numbers will go backward on a 5th gen?

Ever hear of "Displacement on Demand?"

Further, CAFE Average for Trucks/SUVs is separate from passenger cars.

This thread is the stuff that "urban legends" is made of!

(not to flame you.......I just don't think you understand CAFE and fuel economy figures that the LSx engines are capable of....)
The question is: Will GM actually start putting DOD on their high tune engines?

Car CAFE and truck/SUV CAFE are 2 different regulations.

I think when you have a 190 mph Corvette that gets 30mpg on the highway, and a 3700 pound, 400 horse GTO that gets better fuel economy than the top Honda Accord V6, I don't think CAFE numbers are a big problem. ;)

The GTO gets better milage than a V6 Accord?

wrong.......

INteresting Tidbit....the LS1 engines in the 98-02 Camaro and Firebird were CAFE Positive...which means they HELPED the corp. hit numbers.

What makes you think EPA numbers will go backward on a 5th gen?

Ever hear of "Displacement on Demand?"

Further, CAFE Average for Trucks/SUVs is separate from passenger cars.

This thread is the stuff that "urban legends" is made of!

(not to flame you.......I just don't think you understand CAFE and fuel economy figures that the LSx engines are capable of....)

the man has spoken! so it is safe to say that the next gen Camaro will have "Displacement on Demand". :bow:

Hot dog! Another item on the wish list granted!

Going back to the V6 issue. I don't mind a V6 Camaro as long as the put a decent rear gear in the drivetrain to make up for the lack of power.
The 3.8 liter v6 put out 200 HP at the crank..( It would have been nice if GM would have put the L67-SC3.8 in the V6 Fbody) Personal experience, it stunk with a 3.08 gear and still needs a more gear at 3.23..

The standard gear for a V6 camaro should be 3.42 limited-slip. With a car the will probably weight close to 4k pounds, that is the only way to keep the "sporty" factor and have a V6.

When I had a 3rd gen I was unfortunate to have a 2.8 liter with a 2.73 rear.. that was a Dog...
I was always looking for the 4 cyl camaros and their 4.10 rear end...

Going back to the V6 issue. I don't mind a V6 Camaro as long as the put a decent rear gear in the drivetrain to make up for the lack of power.
The 3.8 liter v6 put out 200 HP at the crank..( It would have been nice if GM would have put the L67-SC3.8 in the V6 Fbody) Personal experience, it stunk with a 3.08 gear and still needs a more gear at 3.23..

The standard gear for a V6 camaro should be 3.42 limited-slip. With a car the will probably weight close to 4k pounds, that is the only way to keep the "sporty" factor and have a V6.

When I had a 3rd gen I was unfortunate to have a 2.8 liter with a 2.73 rear.. that was a Dog...
I was always looking for the 4 cyl camaros and their 4.10 rear end...

Rear gear doesn't matter, what matters is OVERALL gearing.
What I'd really like to see is a 6spd man/auto option for the V6, that would help with giving it more initial punch but keeping the highway gearing available too. Although I never minded the 5 spd with 3.23's in my 2000 Camaro.

The 3.8 V6 auto's actually did have 3.42's available.

Chris

HEY!!!!!!!!!! :mad: i've had 4 F-bodys so far and i'm only 25, and i paid every dime of insurance on all of them :p :D

BUT WHERE ANY OF THEM "NEW" F-BODIES?

I had my first F-body at 19... and I paid the insurance on it as well. However I couldn't afford the insurance on a new Z28 when I was 25, so I waited for the next discount break at 30.

This thread is the stuff that "urban legends" is made of!


:lol:

Ditto. Just like the urban legend that if you drive your pick-up truck with the tailgate down, you'll get better gas mileage. Every time I see people doing this I crack up.

Note: Anyone that believes this myth, needs to catch out the episode of Mythbusters where they proved that driving with the tailgate down actually hurts your fuel mileage.

You wanna hear a crazy insurance story, Im 23 and insurance is cheaper on a C5 Vette than it was on my 04 Hyundai Tiburon. Go Figure.:confused: :D

The question is: Will GM actually start putting DOD on their high tune engines?
I really do not care if they start to put DOD on the 5th gen, actually...if it does show up on the camaro it will definatly help sales.

...But I really hope that it is either an option or is in seperate performance package. Because personally, if I get a top end ls2 powered 'maro and I dont have the option for 'NO DOD' then I might have to just build the '02. I know DOD is great on suv's, and for people looking for fuel economy, but I want performance and nothing else.

Its kinda like EGR or the Secondary air systems. They are great pieces of technology, and help keep emissions down. But they are annoying and (egr) can sometimes steal some power.

Fry

BUT WHERE ANY OF THEM "NEW" F-BODIES?

I had my first F-body at 19... and I paid the insurance on it as well. However I couldn't afford the insurance on a new Z28 when I was 25, so I waited for the next discount break at 30.


none were new. the first chance i had at a new Camaro was 98, and i didn't like the redesign, so i got a 20K mile used 93. and since i was 19, i've had at least 2(pick-up for dirt bikes) vehicles on the road at the same time which has cost me more than one new car ever could have. trust me, my insurance has been insane up until i switched companies last year.

I really do not care if they start to put DOD on the 5th gen, actually...if it does show up on the camaro it will definatly help sales.

...But I really hope that it is either an option or is in seperate performance package. Because personally, if I get a top end ls2 powered 'maro and I dont have the option for 'NO DOD' then I might have to just build the '02. I know DOD is great on suv's, and for people looking for fuel economy, but I want performance and nothing else.

Its kinda like EGR or the Secondary air systems. They are great pieces of technology, and help keep emissions down. But they are annoying and (egr) can sometimes steal some power.

Fry

I doubt if it's offered that there would be an option not to have it. Take CAGS for example. Granted it saved the gas guzzler tax, so in essence it was a money saving option, but it also helped CAFE too.

Just like CAGs though, I'd imagine you could tune DOD out of you really wanted to. And if you're going to build the car you'll need a tune anyway.

I doubt if it's offered that there would be an option not to have it. Take CAGS for example. Granted it saved the gas guzzler tax, so in essence it was a money saving option, but it also helped CAFE too.

Just like CAGs though, I'd imagine you could tune DOD out of you really wanted to. And if you're going to build the car you'll need a tune anyway.
You might also have to get it re-certified because it might technically be a different engine.
I would hope (and expect) there to be a 3.9 DOD and a 5.3 DOD.

Why? The car will NOT sell with a V8 alone. Just look at the GTO.

4L Eaton V6 please.

The reason the GTO isn't a huge seller is NOT because it is only offered with a V8. It's because the appearance does not appeal to enough people. I've TRIED to love it, I just can't. Love the lump under the hood though.

The creator of this thread obviously keeps very up to date with what is going on in the 5th gen community on this forum.

:D I can't agree more. ;)

The reason the GTO isn't a huge seller is NOT because it is only offered with a V8. It's because the appearance does not appeal to enough people. I've TRIED to love it, I just can't. Love the lump under the hood though.

My friend, you are WAAAAAY off. You aren't even in the stadium! :lol:

Why?

Holden can't make any more than 18,000 GTO's per year. last I checked, GTO was averaging just about 16,000. Hardly a great deal off.

Also, GTO being a V8, no optioned car DOES affect it's appeal. Compare it to the other premium American performance coupe, the Mustang Cobra. Ford didn't sell more than 13,000 Cobras (2003) or 9000 Mach1s (any year).

GTO appeals very well to the target market, and is selling very well in the company it's running.

If anything, the problem is GM over estimated how many GTOs it would sell or even more likely GM couldn't/wouldn't rein in dealers who scalped the living daylights out of the car (up to $10,000 on a $32,000 car) for most of it's 1st year.

I agree with what some others have said about the V6 model:
It needs to make modest power (220-250hp) on REGULAR.

My friend, you are WAAAAAY off. You aren't even in the stadium! :lol:

Why?

Holden can't make any more than 18,000 GTO's per year. last I checked, GTO was averaging just about 16,000. Hardly a great deal off.

Also, GTO being a V8, no optioned car DOES affect it's appeal. Compare it to the other premium American performance coupe, the Mustang Cobra. Ford didn't sell more than 13,000 Cobras (2003) or 9000 Mach1s (any year).

GTO appeals very well to the target market, and is selling very well in the company it's running.

If anything, the problem is GM over estimated how many GTOs it would sell or even more likely GM couldn't/wouldn't rein in dealers who scalped the living daylights out of the car (up to $10,000 on a $32,000 car) for most of it's 1st year.

I'm not only "in the stadium" I'm a season ticket holder:D
I watched a show on SpeedTV featuring GTO's and according to the GTO Club of America, the MAIN reason the car wasn't selling to GTO fans is because the car just didn't "get thier goat" so to speak. What A GTO used to represent was performance in a light appealing bodied car. Well the new GTO looks incredibly ORDINARY at best. I have to admit that the freshened up looks of the 05/06 GTO is a huge improvement, but to that average schmo on the street seeing one going down the road will NOT know it's a GTO let alone a muscle car. Only and enthusiest will know what it is. Hell even Grand Am's had hood scoops. I'm not dis'n, I just think (and have heard from Goat lovers) that the car does not represent what the GTO is supposed to stand for. Hot performance wrapped in a Look At Me package. And the GTO failed on that. But thank GOD it's there.

I'm not only "in the stadium" I'm a season ticket holder:D
I watched a show on SpeedTV featuring GTO's and according to the GTO Club of America, the MAIN reason the car wasn't selling to GTO fans is because the car just didn't "get thier goat" so to speak. What A GTO used to represent was performance in a light appealing bodied car. Well the new GTO looks incredibly ORDINARY at best. I have to admit that the freshened up looks of the 05/06 GTO is a huge improvement, but to that average schmo on the street seeing one going down the road will NOT know it's a GTO let alone a muscle car. Only and enthusiest will know what it is. Hell even Grand Am's had hood scoops. I'm not dis'n, I just think (and have heard from Goat lovers) that the car does not represent what the GTO is supposed to stand for. Hot performance wrapped in a Look At Me package. And the GTO failed on that. But thank GOD it's there.

An old school muscle car GTO club is not a great source to tell you why they think it's not selling as well as they think it should. Most people who make the comments know nothing of the 18000 limit, nor of the cutback for 05 to 12000 due to model year sync, plus they're in a rage because it isn't a carbon copy of a 1969 Judge. The GTO was always a big engine in a lighter bodied ordinary looking car with hood scoops. In fact, ignoring the Judge, take away the hood scoops and it looked like a LeMans. Of course now people fawn over their looks due to the classic appeal of even everyday cars from the 60's but back in then it would have looked like a slightly gussied-up everyday car. The funny part too, the non-car people and some partial-car people who I know and used to work with all loved the looks. Most didn't really know much about the car but they did make comments about how nice the car was. The only complaints I've ever heard are from some f-body lovers who were expecting something that stuck out as much as the later WS.6's.

I think guionM hit the nail on the head.

Chris

Hot performance wrapped in a Look At Me package. And the GTO failed on that.


You're so WRONG it's hilarious. The first GTO's were tempests/le mans with hood scoops, badges and engines. They looked like EVERY other pontiac sitting on the lot.

Here's a pretty sweet 66 GTO with a flat hood on it

http://www.pontiacserver.com/66gp_ad.jpg

Whoops that was a grand prix, let me try again


http://www.student.oulu.fi/~jpontys/nc0507pont.jpg

Damn, missed again, that's a tempest.


http://clubs.hemmings.com/clubsites/royalpont/images/members/lw/lwarner1.jpg


Yeah, that really stands out :rolleyes:

http://www.imagemotorcompany.com/images/70%20Lemans%2034IND.jpg

vs.

http://www.pugetsoundpoci.com/photos/Puyallup05/70GTO_cv.jpg


ROFLMAO, that's so different. I wish i could get some cheap vinyl stickers on my car from the factory :rolleyes:

Here's a (very hypothetical) thought for you,


Base 3.9L OHV 250 hp..... at about 9:0 to 1
Manual 5 speed trans (T-5)

Then an aftermarket company steps up to the plate and offers a Signle and twin turbo kit, pumping out 8psi, bringing that hp to roughly 375.

Now consider this base camaro is 20k, and the turbo kit is 3k, for 23k you can have a 375 hp Camaro.

Does anyone think this would be popular?

While I don't think it would sell like hotcakes, it would sell well enough.
So much for turbo 350Zs and G35s.

If you want the V6 with good power bad enough, we will have to make some demands to make it happen. Write a whole bunch of letter. If they see plenty, then it will come. ;)

notgetleft thanks for doing what I've wanted to do every time someone says the new GTO is too "ordinary" looking. :lol:

Shall we say... :Owned:?

You're so WRONG it's hilarious. The first GTO's were tempests/le mans with hood scoops, badges and engines. They looked like EVERY other pontiac sitting on the lot.You forgot the bucket seats and floor shifters.;) It really stood out when they hit the accelerator tho..:D
1965 Pontiac GTO Tri Power 389 4.11 360@5200 424@3600 5.8 14.5@100mph Car Life 5/65

notgetleft thanks for doing what I've wanted to do every time someone says the new GTO is too "ordinary" looking. :lol:

Shall we say... :Owned:?


Still.. people just say, the car itself, regardless of the name, isn't very emotionally moving to look at.

IMO, they need add subtle lines and fender flares to it, especially to widen the tires.

Yep I remember the 65 GTO well a friend back then had just got one new one week with the tri-power motor and 4-speed and took us all for a ride in it that night and let each one of us drive it and let us run it through the gears from a stand still till well past 120 in 4th and it was a very fast car in its day and even with 4 people in the car it would get rubber in all 4 gears. Todays GTO has the drive tran and motor the car looks is not there. Nice inside but the body is way lacking

i dunno, i got a guy i work with that has a bright red "modern" GTO, i don't think it looks bad or plain at all, i actually think it is a pretty damn good looking car but it just looks like a completely different breed next to my 3rd gen but you could say the same about the lexus on the other side of us

i guess it just goes back to that saying that you can't please everyone all the time, well the GTO certainly does please a good enough amount of people and no one can argue that isn't a powerful car, just because you dislike a car doesn't mean it will bomb in sales, i don't think it was ever intended to be a high volume sold car anyways

You're so WRONG it's hilarious. The first GTO's were tempests/le mans with hood scoops, badges and engines. They looked like EVERY other pontiac sitting on the lot.

Here's a pretty sweet 66 GTO with a flat hood on it

http://www.pontiacserver.com/66gp_ad.jpg

Whoops that was a grand prix, let me try again


http://www.student.oulu.fi/~jpontys/nc0507pont.jpg

Damn, missed again, that's a tempest.


http://clubs.hemmings.com/clubsites/royalpont/images/members/lw/lwarner1.jpg


Yeah, that really stands out :rolleyes:

http://www.imagemotorcompany.com/images/70%20Lemans%2034IND.jpg

vs.

http://www.pugetsoundpoci.com/photos/Puyallup05/70GTO_cv.jpg


ROFLMAO, that's so different. I wish i could get some cheap vinyl stickers on my car from the factory :rolleyes:

Exactly the point I tried to make with all the new GTO haters when the car came out and they thought it looked too plain. The GTO was always a plain car with a big engine, and if you got The Judge, stickers, wild paint, and a wing.

You know what would be awesome? If everyday, a group of about 10 people didn't have to jack thread after thread trying to educate the ignorant people of this board about the new GTO. :rolleyes:

The new GTO won't scream "look at me" like a 98+ WS6 T/A. GET OVER IT. Like pointed out before, neither would the original. That is one of the reasons I love mine. It glides under people's radar. Also, as for the GTO Club didn't like it: We like to remember what we think was the truth, whether it was or not.

As for sales: The car is selling exactly where it was supposed to sell. Do look back at what cars were moving well enough to be discontinued from the Employee Discount sale... (hint: GTO was one of them). Lastly, you have to remember it is based on the Monaro. The Monaro is at the end of its current life cycle, and that is why the current GTO will be gone after this year.

The new GTO has 100% of the Muscle Car formula, and IMHO, is a good representation of what the GTO may have turned out to be had it been in production for 40 years.

Well back on topic, as Scott pointed out the LS1 was CAFE positive, and the new one with displacement on demand should get at least as good a mileage.

The v6 car is a must, and it has to have at least as much balls as the V6 Stang, preferably more. 200 horsepower was outstanding from 96-02. 250 horsepower is what it's going to take to cut the mustard in todays market. It's good if the V6 car has balls, because it makes all Camaros look tough, and your not getting a "fake" camaro if you get the V6. Yeah, the V8 car is the halo car, but if every Camaro out there is fast, and the V8 cars are just stupid fast, that helps make the Camaro image that much better, and hopefully, better selling.

That is not even a issue where the Camaro is concerned . The LSx engines deliver in some cases better fuel mileage than 6 cyl. cars they sell in huge volumes . GM is not currently hurting on the CAFE standards :)

Metal - Which car was that , I'm having trouble remebering . There was a 97 red ram air Formula , and a 97 black ram air TA . One had the S/C 3800 and one had the mini-cube LT1 . I think it was the Formy that had the S/C 3800 . Couple of cool one off oddballs in Pontiac history , thats for sure .

Yeah that was the 265--baby LT1. It had a s/c too. It was the T/A that has the 3800 S/C--it ran high 14's to low 15's--not alot of hp in that one for one reason or another.

The Formula had the S/C 4.3L V8 making around 300hp. It ran about the same as an LT1 did. I am loooking at the magazine article on them as we speak.

I wonder if the F-Body would still be around today if they had used the Blown 3800 in the F-Body's from 98 on.

Probably not because a blown 3.8 still falls victim to the "fast engine in a box" complaint about the Camaros.

They might have sold a few more, paving the way for a great entry level racer with tons of potential - but at the same time, it might have cut into SS sales.

And to this day, there still isn't a huge turbo/supercharger aftermarket segment for late model V6 f-bods. There's a far greater market for v8 forced induction, and it makesme scratch my head as to why. There are all of these 4 banger Evos and StIs running around with gobs of horsepower, and yet no one seems to be taking advantage of these v6s out there. Heck, many STi and Evo cars outpower built LS1s. Seems to me that the turbo v6 market is simply untapped.

If it sells so great. Why did GM cut production for 05? Exactly.

The Mustang sells 100K units a year but the GTO can barely sell 12K.

I hate it when almost every thread about the Camaro somehow turns into a GTO bash. :rolleyes:

I love my new GTO and it looks just fine, and fits right in with my other GTO's.

http://images9.fotki.com/v164/photos/4/42075/741959/DSC00073-vi.jpg

nice stable there NikiVee. The new goat is a great car, 400 hp and refined.

Pardon me while I stop, drop and roll to put out all these flames. Dang, I never said I HATED the Goat, I love what it IS. I just wish (as well as thousands of other car enthusiests) that it had a more aggressive look to go with all the performance. (not a WS6 clone). GEEEESH! I'm VERY happy that the car is available to those who want it. Like I said I've tried to love the looks, just can't convince myself that I do. And I'm NOT alone. And don't tell me it wouldn't be a better seller if it DID have a more aggressive look. If I'm wrong, then why did they put scoops on it in it's second year of production???? and why did they offer a dealer installed front end appearance package as pictured in a previous post. (the three goats together)??????? HUH???????????

Your right. But the GTO gets bashed for just stupid **** also.

:no: What a DOPE

And to this day, there still isn't a huge turbo/supercharger aftermarket segment for late model V6 f-bods. There's a far greater market for v8 forced induction, and it makesme scratch my head as to why.
It is because of the demographics. V6ers are typically young and don't have the money to spend on a turbo or supercharger setup. The V6 cars are probably more of a stepping stone car than the V6 Mustang is. Of the people that finally get that money, most get a new car of some sort instead of modifying the 6.

Your right. But the GTO gets bashed for just stupid **** also.

I know what you mean, I didn't mean to bash, just expressing my opinion, which last time I checked that's what this whole thing is about.:confused: I'm a DIE HARD GM fan. Wouldn't have anything else. I really thought long and hard about the GTO, and was going to get one, (although I didn't love the looks, didn't hate them, just didn't love em) UNTIL I heard about a real possibility of a new Camaro. So all bets are off. I'm waiting.
By the way, that is a mighty fine collection you have there, and one to be proud of.

My apologies to any GTO fans I may have offended.:bow: