Why can't Holden/Buick/Pontiac fix the VZ coupe?

You know Pontiac wants a GTO. As optimistic as some people are that a new one is around the corner.....personally, I don't see one based on the NA Zeta in '07 or '08 or '09 or '10. After that it gets murky...but '11 or '12 may not be sure bets either.

Buick wants a RWD Velite-type convertible-coupe. I can't see any signs of that at all on the horizon.

Holden wants a Monaro, but without a business plan that includes NA exports, Holden can't afford one.

The problem with the current VZ coupe - as we know - is it will not meet US frontal crash standards next year and production will need to cease in about 10 months.


Sooo, I was just kinda thinkin'....what would it cost to bring the VZ coupe up to future US crash standards if Holden/Buick/Pontiac decided it might be something they'd want to do? I can't imagine more than 30,000-40,000 annual units sold between all three of them though.


Anyone with some knowledge to share on this, want to chime in?

My guess is that the investment necessary to come up with an appropriate product off of the VZ - meaning the changes required and the expense to make those changes - does not allow a suitable business case.

That being said, there are other options.

Kappa is by definition flexible due to the hydroformed rails, just like Corvette. But then you're talking about badge engineering, and a slightly larger Kappa might not be appropriate.

I think it would be a fantastic idea, as long as GM spent enough money really working on the redesigns of the GTO, and of course the original design of the Velite. Velite convertible starting at around 27k with standard leather and a 3.2 DOHC engine, I could see a HUGE market potential for that car. This car has some of the most beautiful and breathtaking styling on a concept car, this side of the Sixteen. Of course GTO could adopt a whole new styling theme for Pontiac, as the current twin port kidney grilles are getting a little old for me, a derivation of that Motor Trend/Autoweek theme would be great, as would a derivation of the original Firebird and GTO snout. Plain and simple, these cars have huge potential of attracting a lot more customers than the GTO currently does. With the right interior, right dynamics, and right engine choices, I can easily see the GTO, over time, helping to restore Pontiac's image, and eventually steal some customers from BMW. Yes----it's damned possible. They just need to design something beautiful yet in your face like Pontiac should be, and classical, something cool for the young 20-somehting and 30-somehting to get a kick out of cruising.

The ideas are there. It's all in the execution and design. GM would have to spend some serious dough. I don't care what platform it's done on. RWD coupes and sedans are Pontiac's and Buick's last chance at survival. They need something credible, with beautiful design, great dynamics [in the Buick more focus on isolation, but still something of a driver's car, in Lexus tradition], and great performance. But these cars drastically need to be stylish bombshells AND THE COMPLETE PACKAGE---only available once switching to RWD and the benefits of it.....

Ahhhhh,,, I know some will strongly disagree with me here. But RWD just speaks premium. AWD would be a necessary option. But many in the snow belt would find RWD with trac control is enough, I did, and so did everybody in the '60's and '70's and lots in the '80's too. RWD is just a necessity for where Buick and Pontiac need to go, beautiful styling, great dynamics, great rides, POWERFUL ENGINES. I'm not saying any one of these factors is enough to sell a car, but combined, and most importantly the COOL DESIGN factor, things could go really well.

I could see Pontiac and Buick coupes and verts with the V6 and V8 engines easily surpassing 100k units, and that would be a conservative estimate for the first few years, image building would help sales later on. Buick: build somehting as beautiful as the Velite, with that beautiful interior, price it reasonably (26-7k to start, fairly well loaded but still semi-basic for what a Buick should be), and they will come! Pontiac could use a dose of excitement to. Eventually the hope would be for Pontiac to turn to all RWD. I just don't see the need for so much FWD midsize sedans in GMs lineup, and not enough RWD. Why can't they just give us choice? Make Pontiac RWD affordable.....ah but a different discussion for later......sorry for the rant

The Buick and Pontiac were basically dependent on Holden , am I right saying that ? I remember reading an article about Holden , and when the topic of a new Monaro came up , it was basically said the Monaro is going away for awhile . To the ring of wanting to preserve the name and keep desireablity present " the Monaro is gonna go away for awhile and go out with dignity "

Could it simply be just Holdens lack of interest in a coupe at the moment that kills any further development in regulating a version for the US . If Holden really wants to keep the Monaro name away for awhile , wouldnt it just burn the locals if a GTO and a Buick coupe were being shipped overseas .

Just thinking a loud :D

Maybe the lack of GTO will magically at the last minute create a Firebird :cool: With the whole retro 05 stang , a camaro a couple years later , wouldnt a firebird popping outa nowhere be a nice modern day repeat of the mid 60's .

The Buick and Pontiac were basically dependent on Holden , am I right saying that ? I remember reading an article about Holden , and when the topic of a new Monaro came up , it was basically said the Monaro is going away for awhile . To the ring of wanting to preserve the name and keep desireablity present " the Monaro is gonna go away for awhile and go out with dignity "

Could it simply be just Holdens lack of interest in a coupe at the moment that kills any further development in regulating a version for the US . If Holden really wants to keep the Monaro name away for awhile , wouldnt it just burn the locals if a GTO and a Buick coupe were being shipped overseas .

Just thinking a loud :D

Maybe the lack of GTO will magically at the last minute create a Firebird :cool: With the whole retro 05 stang , a camaro a couple years later , wouldnt a firebird popping outa nowhere be a nice modern day repeat of the mid 60's .
I don't think it is a lack of intrest on Holden's part but more a lack of time and money. Their plate is a little full with the launch of VE and I don't think they have the time or money to spend on the soon to be replaced VZ cars.

I don't think it is a lack of intrest on Holden's part but more a lack of time and money. Their plate is a little full with the launch of VE and I don't think they have the time or money to spend on the soon to be replaced VZ cars.

My lack of interest opinion was based off a quote from Holdens president ( I forget his name ) saying they wanted the Monaro to be absent for a uncertain amount of time .

My lack of interest opinion was based off a quote from Holdens president ( I forget his name ) saying they wanted the Monaro to be absent for a uncertain amount of time .

Denny Mooney?

The thing about the Monaro is, if the future frontal impact standards weren't a factor, it would make an elegant solution to an ongoing GTO model - really indefinitely.

I mean, in my simple minded view, all it needs is to make it pass those damned standards. That certainly can't cost more than developing a whole new car. Or might it be cheaper to base it on VE, which already passes all US impact standards?

At any rate, if you want to see a GTO or Velite or Monaro before next decade, Holden will be the key.

The thing about the Monaro is, if the future frontal impact standards weren't a factor, it would make an elegant solution to an ongoing GTO model - really indefinitely.

I mean, in my simple minded view, all it needs is to make it pass those damned standards. That certainly can't cost more than developing a whole new car. Or might it be cheaper to base it on VE, which already passes all US impact standards?

At any rate, if you want to see a GTO or Velite or Monaro before next decade, Holden will be the key.

I've said this before more than a few times, and I'll say it again:

There are NO frontal crash standards coming up beyond the "Smart" passenger airbags that take effect September 1, 2006.

FMVSS No. 208 is a phase in for airbags that protect occupants who are unbelted, and (of all things) kids loose in the front seat. It started with the 2004 model year, and must be complete by the end of the 2006 model year run.

Important quotes:

"...The upgrade was designed to meet the goals of improving protection for occupants of all sizes, belted and unbelted, in moderate to high speed crashes, and of minimizing the risks posed by air bags to infants, children, and other occupants, especially in low speed crashes...

...The rule also included a requirement that, beginning in 2007, the 50th percentile adult dummy must meet the injury criteria when subjected to a 35 mph belted rigid barrier crash...

...In the 2005-2009 time frame, the Agency will continue to pursue research to advance occupant protection in frontal crashes, including monitoring real world air bag performance; evaluating dynamic out of position air bag suppression systems; evaluating advanced occupant sensors; evaluating advanced seat belts, adaptive pretensioners, and load limiters; exploring crash test procedures with pre-impact braking; developing and evaluating dummy enhancements driven by new sensor/restraint technologies...
[/quote]

I have access to new federal standards regarding automobiles, and anyone can find out about new or upcoming vehicle standards themselves by simply going to the NHTSA website.

There is NO new crash standards on the immediate horizon thats going to effect the GTO outside of technology related items!!

The plan simple truth about the GTO's planned departure is very very simple:

GTO is at the end of it's model run. That's all.

1. It was scheduled to run 3 years. It rand 2004, 2005, and now 2006.
2. Holden is ending production of Monaro/GTO when they planned to. It's part of their plant plans.
3. Pontiac planned to have a replacement GTO ready in 2007 for the 2008 model year, and that plan was cancelled and no changes were made regarding the current GTO's production schedule.

GM has the option of installing these new airbags and sensors in the current GTO, but it would have to run a number of years to make it worthwhile
GM EXPECTS TO HAVE A REPLACEMENT OUT IN LESS TIME THAN THIS.

15,000 cars per year at a wholesale price of just $28-30K for an additional couple of years, doesn't make a great financial case to extend a "old" car.



On the other item.....it takes 4 years to design a car from a blank piece of paper.... and someone is selling you that it's going to take 5, 6, or 7 years to create a car from a project that's already mostly done.

Whoever is feeding this information to you is on crack.

And you can tell him/her I said so... for what it's worth. :lol:

It takes 18 months after greenlight to get a car on the streets, the VE was engineered to be US regulation compatible, and the coupe was part of Holden's redesign of the VE line.

Even if GM decides to go with the North America chassis on the coupe, some people are going to eat alot of crow thinking 2010MY or later. ;)


....BTW: Velite WON'T be based on the "Zeta".

Well, if all it comes down to are afew sensors, then I'd say it's pretty dumb not to continue production. Maybe we could all pitch in. ;) Holden said afew months ago it would continue VZ coupe production as long as Pontiac could make a case for it. Well, if it's down to a couple of sensors, Pontiac should step up.

Don't confuse what I'm saying about a future GTO with the 5th gen Camaro. When "old" Zeta was cancelled so was GTO. Camaro rose from the ashes on "new" Zeta, it remains to be seen what will happen with GTO. Even if approved at some future date, GTO is certainly not coming on the new platform before Camaro. Do the math.

As far as Velite and Zeta, yeah I know. Ann Asensio told us so in an interview last year. But frankly, I see no Velite on the horizon anyway - Zeta or otherwise.

http://img483.imageshack.us/img483/3472/coupeside0ja.jpg

Which Holden is this a clay of?


From this thread...

http://www.gminsidenews.com/forums/showthread.php?p=386557#post386557

What I never understood...is if all the work is basically done on a VE GTO...why not just make it? I mean...you have the uber flexible production line there (where you just laid a shift off)...you have the platform that was engineered from the beginning to accept the coupe...and you have the importation process already setup. After the money Holden has invested in VE...it would be stupid not to make the coupe that was already in the business plan.

The only real question is...did they intend to make the VE Coupes here...or in Australia...and if they did intend to make them here...how does the business case look for shifting production back to Oz (since it seems certain no VE cars will be made here)? There are some issues still with the exchange rate I think could be an obstacle.

All in all...I see the GTO having a production hole of 18-24 months at the most. There is too much work done, and the coupe market changes too fast for them to wait longer. If GM is smart...they will annouce that a new car is coming when they offically announce the end of the current GTO. Just cancelling the car with no mention of the future will only add to the perception some have of the GTO as a failure.

What I never understood...is if all the work is basically done on a VE GTO...why not just make it? .


I suspect that the VE/Zeta GTO never got that far along. Sure there were design excercises and lots of engineering math....but that's about it.

And just before it was cancelled, the VE/Zeta GTO had already been pushed back to '09/'10.

I suspect that the VE/Zeta GTO never got that far along. Sure there were design excercises and lots of engineering math....but that's about it.

And just before it was cancelled, the VE/Zeta GTO had already been pushed back to '09/'10.

How much work would need to be done even if that was not the case....I can't imagine it takes years to make a sedan a coupe...especially when that was the intention from the beginning.

How much work would need to be done even if that was not the case....I can't imagine it takes years to make a sedan a coupe...especially when that was the intention from the beginning.

I don't know, I suppose it depends on your priorities. Holden was able to make a Monaro off the Commodore pretty quickly and cheaply. But Holden's engineering resources are stretched pretty thin right now, with the VE Commodore and it's variants rolling out soon. Plus they don't have lots of cash to throw around either. That's why I'm focusing in on the possibility of salvaging the VZ coupe for NA certification.

Just cancelling the car with no mention of the future will only add to the perception some have of the GTO as a failure.

Blarney. No one here really knows and can post in detail what will happen next with the legendary GTO name. But I'm a little sick and tired of people hinting and winking about the current (not to mention all the previous) GTO's being a 'failure'. Muscle car history is a little murky, but the GTO was one of the FIRST bonafide American muscle cars. The current GTO is a fine and true carrier of GTO DNA and will put many if not most other current affordable performance cars to shame. It's the fastest, most nimble, most powerful, and safest GTO ever built. It's turned a profit for GM and delighted its many American owners. STOP whining about it being a 'failure'. The 4gen Camaro and Firebird are no longer produced, does that mean they were a 'failure'? How about the Ford Lightning pickup?

Perhaps GM is tight-lipped for an old-fashioned reason, that being they want to avoid giving their competition a heads-up about what's coming. Maybe the next GTO will have doorlets, AWD, a supercharger, or who knows what else. How about letting them release info about THEIR products when THEY think it's the right time, instead of second-guessing and whispering about 'failures'.

Cost might not be the main issue. It could be a resource intensive project for Holden to embark upon given they would also need to continue the development of their VE-derived vehicles (wagon, ute, long wheelbase versions, export to ME etc...). Holden wouldn't want to concede market share to Toyota and Ford by delaying the launch of its core vehicle lineup... such a move would be counter-productive.

Perhaps GM is tight-lipped for an old-fashioned reason, that being they want to avoid giving their competition a heads-up about what's coming. Maybe the next GTO will have doorlets, AWD, a supercharger, or who knows what else. How about letting them release info about THEIR products when THEY think it's the right time, instead of second-guessing and whispering about 'failures'.

A simple to clue in to the car is A) coming or B) NOT coming .....is that too much to ask for . My god , ford said their would be a new mustang without giving away all the details .

I do believe it was Denny Mooney Charlie .

A simple to clue in to the car is A) coming or B) NOT coming .....is that too much to ask for . My god , ford said their would be a new mustang without giving away all the details .

I do believe it was Denny Mooney Charlie .

That's the thing, there are lots of clues. Jim Hopson, a Pontiac spokesman in fact, was even quoted talking about a future GTO "in a couple of years", in an interview last summer. I mentioned Holden's comments on GTO in a previous post. So lots of indications people are wanting this to happen. But how?

Let me make one thing perfectly clear: There is NO WAY the the new NA Zeta will be ready by '08...let alone rushing a new GTO to the front of the line. Put this one away, it is impossible.

The next scenario is possible but improbable - that is - a Holden VE coupe by '08. That would be right smack dab in the middle of when Holden will try to release it's bread and butter VE's. Those will not/ cannot be delayed in order to develop and roll out a coupe in that time frame.

The last possible scenario, if we are to believe Mr. Hopson's time table, is a revised VZ - one which can be sold in the US - by '08. It's that, or Hopson will be doing some back pedalling.

Blarney. No one here really knows and can post in detail what will happen next with the legendary GTO name. But I'm a little sick and tired of people hinting and winking about the current (not to mention all the previous) GTO's being a 'failure'. Muscle car history is a little murky, but the GTO was one of the FIRST bonafide American muscle cars. The current GTO is a fine and true carrier of GTO DNA and will put many if not most other current affordable performance cars to shame. It's the fastest, most nimble, most powerful, and safest GTO ever built. It's turned a profit for GM and delighted its many American owners. STOP whining about it being a 'failure'. The 4gen Camaro and Firebird are no longer produced, does that mean they were a 'failure'? How about the Ford Lightning pickup?

Perhaps GM is tight-lipped for an old-fashioned reason, that being they want to avoid giving their competition a heads-up about what's coming. Maybe the next GTO will have doorlets, AWD, a supercharger, or who knows what else. How about letting them release info about THEIR products when THEY think it's the right time, instead of second-guessing and whispering about 'failures'.

That may be your opinion...and I happen to agree with it. However I am willing to be bet that if you went on any non-GM enthusiast board...or even just the general car buying public and asked if the GTO was a failure...more people would say yes than no. The sad fact is...the slow sales start already tarnished the public opinion of this car...and there has not been enough positive press about the 05 to counteract that. Cancel the car...with no mention of a replacment, and 90% of the car buying public will assume it is because GM finally realized the GTO in it's current form was a failure. May not be true...but you would have to have blinders on not to see it coming.

That may be your opinion...and I happen to agree with it. However I am willing to be bet that if you went on any non-GM enthusiast board...or even just the general car buying public and asked if the GTO was a failure...more people would say yes than no. The sad fact is...the slow sales start already tarnished the public opinion of this car...and there has not been enough positive press about the 05 to counteract that. Cancel the car...with no mention of a replacment, and 90% of the car buying public will assume it is because GM finally realized the GTO in it's current form was a failure. May not be true...but you would have to have blinders on not to see it coming.

I disagree categorically with the above. The "general car buying public" can barely tell a 2005 Mustang from the 1969's. They don't have a clue what GM has said or not said about the GTO or its successor, what GM's sales and profit targets were/are for the 04-06 GTO, how the GTO compares to its competition in today's 2+2 performance coupe marketplace, or for that matter even the engine and driveline configuration of the current car. So why would they consider the current one a failure? In fact the only reason significant percentages of this group would have any clue at all about the situation is from the doomsaying, cynical, anti-GM press such as the LA Times (which only recently once again became neutral enough in their reporting on GM vehicles for GM to lift their ad embargo). And for the GM-hating US media, no GM GTO statement would be enough. GM could lay all their future GTO plans bare for this antagonistic crew and no doubt they would mutter "...But rumors persist, GM may be unable to build them at ALL, due to their ongoing union and benefits liability problems...." :rolleyes:

In fact, from the irresponsible whining and moaning coming from GM "fans" themselves, I'm not surprised in the least how careful GM is about making such future-oriented statements. Many GM "fans" ridiculed the 2004 GTO despite having no serious plans to actually buy one, often due to a "sour-grapes" agenda. The horse has been beat to death already, but often the complaints were utter silliness, such as the lack of hood scoops or having exhaust pipes on both sides :rolleyes: Never MIND the splendid aluminum V8 under the hood, the world-class quality, the ergonomics, the superb IRS suspension.

And this mind-numbing embarrassment about "slow sales start". More baloney. The car is a limited-production loaded performance 2+2. There IS NO v6 GTO, the way one can buy a high-volume v6 Mustang. EVERY GTO sold is loaded with luxury (for its price) with seats completely covered in leather, six-disk premium stereo and the like. It is simply not going to move the way a Vibe or Grand Am does. And no one talks much about the concept that perhaps some dealers added markup to GTO's to KEEP them around their showrooms and lots as a draw to get the public to visit. What's the hottest, wildest Pontiac in the stable? GTO of course. Clearly no Solstices are going to be held at dealers for any real time period, most have been pre-ordered and will disappear the moment they arrive. I'd bet many Pontiac dealers have ambivalence about quickly unloading all their GTO's. They want some unique draws around to add interest to their location. And if a buyer wants a given car enough to pay a premium, hmm let me check... yep the MSRP is a SUGGESTED price and dealers are entitled to whatever profit people want to offer.

Finally - Just want to check in with you... you do have a calendar, right? Take a look at it. It's October 2005 now, not 2006! There will be production of new 06 GTO's at least until next June, and due to shipping they will still be arriving at dealers a year from now. Aren't we jumping the gun a little, going into a 'massive presumptive analysis mode' so soon? GM's got PLENTY of time to make a statement about future GTO's.

I don't think so. The general buying public definitely knows there is a new Mustang out there, and they definitely know it "looks like the old one". Would they be able to point out one from the other if both passed them at different times? Probably not, but if they were parked next to each other or if they viewed one right after the other, then they most certainly would be able to tell which is which.

GM's got plenty of time to make an announcement, but the clock is ticking on DECISION time. In fact, they most likely have already made thier decision, know when the GTO will be out of production [if it will be], and are waiting for the time when [if] the current GTO goes out of production to make that kind of announcement.

You are very right in saying the general public doesn't know anything about the GTO being a failure, the general public could care less about that kind of thing. It's only enthusiasts who worry about it's future because of our interest in the car world. In general, enthusiasts think the GTO isn't doing so well, and I agree that the media has much to do with that. I think that was the point of what formula79 was saying. There is much rhetoric in what the media says, but those in the industry and enthusiasts base thier perception on what the media says and of course what they see with thier own eyes. The GTO, in general, is hurting in the eyes of many enthusiasts who refuse to see that the GTO is in fact meeting targets. Mostly those people are biased against GM or the GTO as well. Formula79 wasn't saying it was his perception, but that if GM all of a sudden ends production of the GTO and then doesn't come back with an announcement, that some in the media and many enthusiasts would paint the picture of it being a failure, when in fact it isn't and would be coming back soon after that.

I said that as long as GM makes an announcement that they are working on new one before the cancel the old one...they will be fine.

As for the GTO, and the failure thing...I do not feel the car is a failure...but there is a perception out there among plenty of potential buyers that it is...if you can't see that, you are blind or ignorant. GM sold the 04's with like $5K rebates if I remember right. The 05's sell fine without rebates..but teh 04 situation left a bad impression. Think about it...how many GM cars straight up at a $5K rebate on them? There is a negative stereotype out there about the current GTO...but I feel the 04 with it's rediculus markups, no hood scoops and proper exhaust is mostly to blame for it.

I like the GTO as much as anyone in it's current forum..however there were mistakes made in how GM brought it to market..and I honestly feel the 04 should have never happened. GM should have waited a year and got it right..like they did with the 05's.

Anyway...I have a sense it is pointless to even continue arguing with you...it would be like trying to arguing with Charly why the Camaro may should be Mustang sized :D


I disagree categorically with the above. The "general car buying public" can barely tell a 2005 Mustang from the 1969's. They don't have a clue what GM has said or not said about the GTO or its successor, what GM's sales and profit targets were/are for the 04-06 GTO, how the GTO compares to its competition in today's 2+2 performance coupe marketplace, or for that matter even the engine and driveline configuration of the current car. So why would they consider the current one a failure? In fact the only reason significant percentages of this group would have any clue at all about the situation is from the doomsaying, cynical, anti-GM press such as the LA Times (which only recently once again became neutral enough in their reporting on GM vehicles for GM to lift their ad embargo). And for the GM-hating US media, no GM GTO statement would be enough. GM could lay all their future GTO plans bare for this antagonistic crew and no doubt they would mutter "...But rumors persist, GM may be unable to build them at ALL, due to their ongoing union and benefits liability problems...." :rolleyes:

In fact, from the irresponsible whining and moaning coming from GM "fans" themselves, I'm not surprised in the least how careful GM is about making such future-oriented statements. Many GM "fans" ridiculed the 2004 GTO despite having no serious plans to actually buy one, often due to a "sour-grapes" agenda. The horse has been beat to death already, but often the complaints were utter silliness, such as the lack of hood scoops or having exhaust pipes on both sides :rolleyes: Never MIND the splendid aluminum V8 under the hood, the world-class quality, the ergonomics, the superb IRS suspension.

And this mind-numbing embarrassment about "slow sales start". More baloney. The car is a limited-production loaded performance 2+2. There IS NO v6 GTO, the way one can buy a high-volume v6 Mustang. EVERY GTO sold is loaded with luxury (for its price) with seats completely covered in leather, six-disk premium stereo and the like. It is simply not going to move the way a Vibe or Grand Am does. And no one talks much about the concept that perhaps some dealers added markup to GTO's to KEEP them around their showrooms and lots as a draw to get the public to visit. What's the hottest, wildest Pontiac in the stable? GTO of course. Clearly no Solstices are going to be held at dealers for any real time period, most have been pre-ordered and will disappear the moment they arrive. I'd bet many Pontiac dealers have ambivalence about quickly unloading all their GTO's. They want some unique draws around to add interest to their location. And if a buyer wants a given car enough to pay a premium, hmm let me check... yep the MSRP is a SUGGESTED price and dealers are entitled to whatever profit people want to offer.

Finally - Just want to check in with you... you do have a calendar, right? Take a look at it. It's October 2005 now, not 2006! There will be production of new 06 GTO's at least until next June, and due to shipping they will still be arriving at dealers a year from now. Aren't we jumping the gun a little, going into a 'massive presumptive analysis mode' so soon? GM's got PLENTY of time to make a statement about future GTO's.

The GTO, in general, is hurting in the eyes of many enthusiasts who refuse to see that the GTO is in fact meeting targets. Mostly those people are biased against GM or the GTO as well.

This part of your post really caught my eye, and I agree with it 100%. If you look deeper at the statement though, it likely becomes clear why it is true. There is NO realistic sales level, profit level, or 'positive buzz' (as if that will ever happen in our lifetimes) from the GM-h8r media that would make people like these pipe up and say "Gee! The GTO is doing GREAT!". By definition, they will remain cynical until the end of time about the GTO. Whatever... too bad for them. They will have missed out on one of the best and most potent performance values in recent memory.

Unless it's an absolute homerun and there was demand that FAR outstripped supply. It's a double-edged sword, of course this would be the ideal situation for GM and the media on one hand does well to chastise GM for not coming up with a car that can do that. On the other hand they don't give credit where credit is due. And I hate that. The GTO is a very good seller, for being a purpose-built car that is volume limited, and makes profit for GM. At the beginning of next year, Pontiac's image will be undergoing a positive shift, with these new cars they have and the attention the Solstice will continue receiving once it is out on the roads and people who haven't seen it before get to see it, the GTO will only build on that positive perception.

Now, if the GTO were a sexy beast [sexier than now] with an original GTO type snout and there was a Grand Prix RWD sedan to complement with incredible style and performance, well then Pontiac's image at the beginning of next year would be gangbusters!

GM sold the 04's with like $5K rebates if I remember right.

Am I supposed to believe there's something unique about GM offering a big rebate on a new vehicle? GM's been offering 3000, 3500, 4000 regularly on a broad lineup of models. Speaking of the buying public... they are thoroughly accustomed to incentives of such magnitude. And again, for those not CYNICAL or disillusioned about GM in general and Pontiac in particular, such incentives had no downside - just made the GTO more within their reach. Naturally, cynics pile on when such things happen :rolleyes:

GM should have waited a year and got it right..like they did with the 05's.

I disagree 100% with the above. I swear, GM just can't win with their finicky, demanding, whiny 'enthusiasts'. If GM had NOT released the GTO in 04 as they did, the roar would have no doubt been deafening - "HEY. What is TAKING them so LONG!!!" "Forget it. I WAS going to get a GTO.... but NOW I will get a Mustang!" Etc. Instead, GM jumped right in. They toned down the huge hood scoops and spoiler that Car & Driver had whined about in 1999 on the 30th Trans Am, which I still recall distinctly, the reviewer said made him want to hang a sign on their test car saying "Not my own car!" (Jerks.) They made the car a subtle and powerful statement and a potent competitor for the likes of the Infiniti G35 coupe. What happened? Those who SERIOUSLY wanted a GTO last year, bought one. A bunch of whiners sat on the sidelines as usual, second-guessing GM. The more things change, the more they remain the same :p

I disagree 100% with the above. I swear, GM just can't win with their finicky, demanding, whiny 'enthusiasts'.

Maybe it's because we see what the competition is producing and we wonder why GM can't produce something as good or better. GM has it in them, and they have such a glorious history, and it's in every brand they own, they just don't get how to properly utilize them, at this current time with the current products right now, not talking of the future.

By the way, I don't agree GM should have waited one year with the GTO, that is an example of the public just not catching on of what kind of car was there. And also a botched marketing campaign combined with mountains of perception problems. MOUNTAINS. People just don't think of Pontiac very favorably any more. It's thier own fault too. They produced cars that were "old times" for too long and the competition advanced and offered better cars, more modern for the same money. That's all folks. I wouldn't buy a Bonneville or Grand PRix over an Acura TL, no way no how.

Am I supposed to believe there's something unique about GM offering a big rebate on a new vehicle? GM's been offering 3000, 3500, 4000 regularly on a broad lineup of models. Speaking of the buying public... they are thoroughly accustomed to incentives of such magnitude. And again, for those not CYNICAL or disillusioned about GM in general and Pontiac in particular, such incentives had no downside - just made the GTO more within their reach. Naturally, cynics pile on when such things happen :rolleyes:

Say what you want...but a $5k rebate on a GM car is huge...simply huge...as I said...I don't think the GP ever got that high in the middle of a MY. Hot GM vehicles don't need huge rebates to sell. My wifes Equinox had a only $1500 rebate on it when we bought it...and they had been out over a year.

I disagree 100% with the above. I swear, GM just can't win with their finicky, demanding, whiny 'enthusiasts'. If GM had NOT released the GTO in 04 as they did, the roar would have no doubt been deafening - "HEY. What is TAKING them so LONG!!!" "Forget it. I WAS going to get a GTO.... but NOW I will get a Mustang!" Etc. Instead, GM jumped right in. They toned down the huge hood scoops and spoiler that Car & Driver had whined about in 1999 on the 30th Trans Am, which I still recall distinctly, the reviewer said made him want to hang a sign on their test car saying "Not my own car!" (Jerks.) They made the car a subtle and powerful statement and a potent competitor for the likes of the Infiniti G35 coupe. What happened? Those who SERIOUSLY wanted a GTO last year, bought one. A bunch of whiners sat on the sidelines as usual, second-guessing GM. The more things change, the more they remain the same :p

Well...GM could have just delayed announcing the car was coming back. I am guessing if they delayed the car 6 months..we could have gotten all the 05's goodies from the start. Might have even still make a late 04 MY. The 04 had serious trouble moving....largely do to dealer markups...but also, the styling just was not there...and perception went down hill. I see plenty of 04 owners out there trying to get 05 bumpers. Borla even makes an exhaust the converts the 04's to a split exit like the 05's. They would not be making it if there was not demand. To me the exhaust thing was huge. I mean hell....you can get an Accord with dual exit exhaust...but not a car that shares it's namesake with the original muscle car? One thing that is overlooked, is the GTO was actually over it's life one of the slower muscle cars out there. It did what it did largley because of style...hood scoops and dual exhasut. The bring back a new one without any option for either....on top of "okay"...but not really exciting styling...is asking for trouble.

Again...as I have said over and over...GM got it right with the 05's...but the botched the 04's...and it just goes to prove that first impressions mean alot.

This site is not good for my blood pressure.

This is the site where people went into convulsions because GM was "too stupid" for their own good! "They should bring the Monaro to the states ...NOW!"

So we did.

Then we were idiots because the GTO was (fill in the blank with your favorite bash here)


Now, some are upset that there does not seem to be a future GTO in the product line-up after the current car is phased out.

(and no, it isn't quite as simple as adding sensors.....)


the timelines I'm seeing in this post are incorrect.

I can tell you that a lot more is happening than you'd believe. And timelines continue to change. For the better.

Let's hope the economy holds.........that the Delphi debacle is solved.....and that people continue to buy new cars and trucks.......specifically GM cars and trucks.

That's why its good to have members like you here, Red... it keeps our blood pressure down. :D

This site is not good for my blood pressure.
This is the site where people went into convulsions because GM was "too stupid" for their own good! "They should bring the Monaro to the states ...NOW!"
So we did.
Then we were idiots because the GTO was (fill in the blank with your favorite bash here)
Now, some are upset that there does not seem to be a future GTO in the product line-up after the current car is phased out.
(and no, it isn't quite as simple as adding sensors.....)
the timelines I'm seeing in this post are incorrect.
I can tell you that a lot more is happening than you'd believe. And timelines continue to change. For the better.
Let's hope the economy holds.........that the Delphi debacle is solved.....and that people continue to buy new cars and trucks.......specifically GM cars and trucks.

AMEN, 100%.

Say what you want...but a $5k rebate on a GM car is huge...simply huge...as I said...I don't think the GP ever got that high in the middle of a MY. Hot GM vehicles don't need huge rebates to sell.
Maybe $5k was big. But $5k is also a very powerful motivator for someone already wanting a GTO. It was for me... and I was very close to buying an 04 GTO last December. I was amazed what a performance bargain they were at that point. Significantly - I also DID NOT KNOW at that point, that the 05's would have bigger brakes, enhanced IRS CV joints and some other items like the new instantaneous front-rear brake balancing (I did know about the LS2 on the way). I was negotiating with dealers once the $5k word went out, and in fact the main thing that killed the proceedings was my wife freaking out when she found out the GTO only has two doors (see what I mean about the average buying public? They don't even know HOW MANY DOORS a GTO has :o ). I was genuinely sad, and angry with the wife whenn she vetoed the GTO deal then. But it all worked out good in the end, since this year our finances improved and now I've got an 05 GTO :cool:

My point being, those who aren't very serious about a GTO get all scaredy-cat when they see a big rebate on it ("Oh no! What's wrong with the car?"). Nothing would have captured those wannabes anyway, so who cares about them? Those on the fence say "Dam*! This is too good to pass up now. Where do I sign?" :)

I like the GTO as much as anyone in it's current forum..however there were mistakes made in how GM brought it to market..and I honestly feel the 04 should have never happened. GM should have waited a year and got it right..like they did with the 05's.

You have a point, but hindsight is always 20/20, and there are some pretty good arguments as to why the '04 was appropriate. First of all, GM needed a V8 RWD coupe BADLY. Secondly, an '05 release would have put the GTO out on the market at the exact same time as the new Mustang. This could have been a disaster. The '04 release at least gave it some time to establish itself on the market.

As far as the '05 upgrades go, I'm not sure they would have been well recieved. Pontiac was at such a styling low that a car immediately given the Pontiac treatment might have been bashed by the press. They needed a plain design as a way of clearing everyone's pallet from the Aztec, Boneville, and even Firebird.

In my mind, the biggest issue with the GTO is price. Whenever the incentives get this car under $30,000, the sales shoot up. Bob Lutz himself noted that if they could have made the car work in the 20's, it would have been a "bases loaded home run." It of course didn't help that dealers puffed up the price even more to levels at which the car could not hope to compete. The car itself, even in '04 form, is a bargain for $27,000.

In my mind, the biggest issue with the GTO is price. Whenever the incentives get this car under $30,000, the sales shoot up. Bob Lutz himself noted that if they could have made the car work in the 20's, it would have been a "bases loaded home run." It of course didn't help that dealers puffed up the price even more to levels at which the car could not hope to compete. The car itself, even in '04 form, is a bargain for $27,000.

This says it all. :bow:

This says it all.

I disagree. I think THIS says it all :D

You have a point, but hindsight is always 20/20, and there are some pretty good arguments as to why the '04 was appropriate. First of all, GM needed a V8 RWD coupe BADLY. Secondly, an '05 release would have put the GTO out on the market at the exact same time as the new Mustang. This could have been a disaster. The '04 release at least gave it some time to establish itself on the market.

As far as the '05 upgrades go, I'm not sure they would have been well recieved. Pontiac was at such a styling low that a car immediately given the Pontiac treatment might have been bashed by the press. They needed a plain design as a way of clearing everyone's pallet from the Aztec, Boneville, and even Firebird.

Maybe it's because we see what the competition is producing and we wonder why GM can't produce something as good or better. GM has it in them, and they have such a glorious history, and it's in every brand they own, they just don't get how to properly utilize them, at this current time with the current products right now, not talking of the future.

I meant to say something about this too... I do agree with part of it, about the heritage in the GM brands and their brand equity. The part I don't really agree with though, is whether GM is putting out competitive products. It sure looks like me that they are! How can anyone make a case the Cobalt SS, the GTO, the CTS-V and the STS-V are not splendid, world-class performance cars? If I want a RWD coupe with the same raw performance and the luxury/ergonomics of a 2005 GTO, for a real street price south of $30k, tell me please, where should I go get one?

The only thing holding GM back now is their absurdly high UAW costs. That's going to change :)

The GTO is a "field expediant" product. GM needed a RWD coupe. Holden had one which didn't require too much effort to configure in order to be sold here. Pontiac had been jonesing to put the GTO emblem on something for a decade. Close enough, it all came together. And I'm glad GM did it!

But I do agree with dav350z regarding cost. MSRP-ing GTO anywhere in the 20's (even $29,500), would have hit the sweet spot. I betcha the car would have sold out early at that price point. Maybe that's not GM's goal with this car though....who knows.

At the risk of BDnF calling me a GM hater/whiner/whatever, I think that it's important that we speak the truth. The GTO is not a perfect GTO...(yes Virginia...THERE I said it. :p ). It's a largish upright coupe, yet the interior is slightly cramped. (anyone ever hit their head entering or exiting a GTO?). The trunk is small. And my pet peeve....no 3rd seat belt in the back. Jeeze, even the Cobalt coupe has a 3rd seat belt. All these things are completely acceptable in a real (yes, REAL), ponycar....but maybe not so acceptable in a nearly two ton INTERMEDIATE coupe. The chassis in the GTO is quite satisfactory for a GTO...but lets face it - it's old. Old and not too sophisticated or expensive. Not that that is a bad thing....but don't charge me for "top notch" if I'm not getting it.

Well, those are my complaints....with that said, I like the GTO. It's interior trim is still what I would consider GM's best. It's pleasant to drive and it's LS2 makes great burbling noises and power. And by-golley, it's available with a stick!!! In fact it's still on my short list of a handful of cars I'm thinking of buying next.

My dilemma is this, although I like many of the aspects of the current GTO - what I don't like about it, prohibits me from spending more than mid-high 20's for it.

Note: No hoodscoops on the '04 never bothered me. ;)

Say what you all want....but if you are gonna do a GTO...it should be done right. When you think about it really, the real loosers are the people who are arguably the greatest enthusiasts. The one who ran out and bought the 04 the second it hit US shores..at a dealer markup. Now they are stuck with a car that was made yesterday's new 6 months later when the info about the 05 came out. Not only that, but 04's can be had dirt cheap on the used car market...so these people can't even trade out of them.

It's funny...everyone here screams "Don't even bother bringing back the Camaro if it doesn't have XXX, or is not done right"....yet on the other hand the same people are saying that GM was right to bring out the 04..with really no styling to tie it to the GTO's past besides the badge (and not even a proper dual exhaust(!))...when an 05 with more power, hood scoops, and a proper exhaust was only 6-9 months behind.

Hindisght is 20/20...I will agree with that. It's is fine to say "we rushed the car to market because people wanted it..", but If GM rushed the Camaro to market with the same "traditional" cues missing...people would be calling for heads.


Again...I love the 05..might even buy an 06!

Either way...I understand hindsight is

(and no, it isn't quite as simple as adding sensors.....)


.

I know. But I couldn't find the sarcasm smiley. :)

The GTO is a "field expediant" product. GM needed a RWD coupe. Holden had one which didn't require too much effort to configure in order to be sold here. Pontiac had been jonesing to put the GTO emblem on something for a decade. Close enough, it all came together. And I'm glad GM did it!

But I do agree with dav350z regarding cost. MSRP-ing GTO anywhere in the 20's (even $29,500), would have hit the sweet spot. I betcha the car would have sold out early at that price point. Maybe that's not GM's goal with this car though....who knows.

I definitely agree with the first paragraph. On the second, sure they would have sold more at a lower price. But there is a goal to maximize profit too. The GTO (IMHO) is a clearly improved car vs the LS1 Trans Am it replaced. more rear leg room by far, more power, IRS, better stereo, modern DIC, and so on. Why would they stick with the price point of an 02 TA, which I distinctly recall being $29700 loaded (not even a WS6)? And maybe GM and their dealers wanted solid profits for a car that is clearly 'more car' than the TA.

The GTO is not a perfect GTO...(yes Virginia...THERE I said it. ). It's a largish upright coupe, yet the interior is slightly cramped. (anyone ever hit their head entering or exiting a GTO?). The trunk is small. And my pet peeve....no 3rd seat belt in the back. Jeeze, even the Cobalt coupe has a 3rd seat belt. All these things are completely acceptable in a real (yes, REAL), ponycar....but maybe not so acceptable in a nearly two ton INTERMEDIATE coupe. The chassis in the GTO is quite satisfactory for a GTO...but lets face it - it's old. Old and not too sophisticated or expensive. Not that that is a bad thing....but don't charge me for "top notch" if I'm not getting it.

This is a prime example of a loss of perspective. As I've compared to the LS1 TA above... few dealers (except for the more profit-obsessed ones who added big markups in the past to early GTO inventory) have asked buyers to "pay top notch". The real street price of 04 GTO's hovered around $30k for a large segment of the last year... and there were some DEEP value discount prices last December as everyone knows. Today for that matter... as well as at least two significant periods in the last six months... once again the real street price of 400 HP (400! amazing how peeps gloss over that!) IRS RWD GTO's has been around $29-31k. I still maintain that is a great deal, especially once the quality and modern interior design is tossed in. Where's the nearest competitor, for this price? Ford - any 400 hp muscle coupes for this price? Mighty Toyota, Honda, Nissan? (don't try to tell me a G35 coupe can hang here. I can slap one around without even trying, with my 120 HP advantage) Nothing can touch the GTO in its niche. So yes, I do think it's worth something a little north of $30k. THAT is why they fly off the lots everytime they are below that.

As for the interior. I love it. I've had a few 4gen Firebirds. The seating position and visibility out of the GTO is far better. I don't bump my head getting out any more than I used to in my Formula... unless the seat is motored up which I don't ordinarily do. Rear seat access is definitely awkward for adults... but I doubt people who need to regularly move three other adults are on the market for a coupe (and BTW it's no better in the 05 Stang or the G35, I've tried them too). Don't like that? DONT BUY a COUPE. My two tykes don't have a bit of trouble scrambling in and out. And once they are in, they have the luxury of much more spacious rear legroom than I had on my Formula. Three rear seats? Are you serious? See above - about whether you are in the market for a coupe. It's quite bizarre to expect three real humans to get in the back of a performance coupe unless you are in a Fraternity and are hosting a car-stuffing competition in conjunction with a beer party. I love the custom look my two rear bucket seats give to my GTO.

And about the trunk. Due to my T-tops, I trained myself over the years to keep my Firebird trunk empty. It's amazing, how much worthless junk collects in trunks if you let it. If you don't, you find the trunk is generally plenty big enough for typical needs. But that's just my $0.02 :)

I fail to understand how my GTO's IRS suspension is so 'primitive'. It is LEAPS and BOUNDS better than the LS1 Formula I had.

When you think about it really, the real loosers are the people who are arguably the greatest enthusiasts. The one who ran out and bought the 04 the second it hit US shores..at a dealer markup. Now they are stuck with a car that was made yesterday's new 6 months later when the info about the 05 came out. Not only that, but 04's can be had dirt cheap on the used car market...so these people can't even trade out of them.
Why don't you find an actual 04 GTO owner, and ask him in person if he thinks he is a loser? You'll be hard-pressed to find a disgruntled 04 GTO owner (yes, of course, they do exist). How are they a loser? If someone had put up with their stiff-axle Z28 or TA for many years and wanted to upgrade, and they wanted or needed to at the point the GTO's first came out, I don't see how it's so horrible for them to pay the going price... which naturally when the 04's were first out, was around sticker or above in some locations. If they had fun with the car, and did so a year or more before others could enjoy theirs, well I say that's great. It reminds me of friends saying "Oh... I'm going to wait until PC's are cheaper and more powerful, then get a great deal." :rolleyes: One could make a case THEY are the losers, having missed out on currently available hardware for months or even years.

And SHAME on GM for being so mean to 04 owners, by adding more features buyers wanted in the 05 model! :rolleyes: How COULD they be so insensitive! Brother.

As for those trading out of an 04... Surely you know - trading out of just about ANY 1-yr old car is going to give you a beating. This is news? :confused: Sure, used ones are a good deal now. They've also potentially been trounced, vomited in, wrecked, smoked in, maybe even had an unannounced interlude in flooded New Orleans :eek: So I bought mine new :cool:

yet on the other hand the same people are saying that GM was right to bring out the 04..with really no styling to tie it to the GTO's past besides the badge (and not even a proper dual exhaust(!))...when an 05 with more power, hood scoops, and a proper exhaust was only 6-9 months behind
It's mighty superficial to think the GTO's essence is bound to trinkets like widely placed exhaust tips and some hood scoops. What made the 98+ Z28 such a hit with enthusiasts? (Hint. NOT HOOD SCOOPS). It was the amazing LS1. The ENGINE has always been what separated mediocre muscle cars from the sublime, the classics, the ones people still drool over. Who really cherishes the 340 Plymouth Duster? Versus - who drools over a Hemi 426 Cuda :cool: The LS1 Camaro SS is more sought after than a base Z28 - that is true - but it's still the ENGINE which is the critical component for making the car great. And again - it's the ENGINE which makes the GTO great. Sure - the LS2 is better. But the LS1 in the 04 GTO made up for a mighty huge pile of missing flashy bits. It is agreed that it would be better if the 04's had all the 05 has. (Someday I hope to get a ticket to DreamWorld, a mystical place where no carmaker ever makes a mistake ;) ) But the 04's are themselves a great performance value.

I definitely agree with the first paragraph. On the second, sure they would have sold more at a lower price. But there is a goal to maximize profit too. The GTO (IMHO) is a clearly improved car vs the LS1 Trans Am it replaced. more rear leg room by far, more power, IRS, better stereo, modern DIC, and so on. Why would they stick with the price point of an 02 TA, which I distinctly recall being $29700 loaded (not even a WS6)? And maybe GM and their dealers wanted solid profits for a car that is clearly 'more car' than the TA.

If you consider the GTO to be a 4th gen TA replacement, then I agree completely. GTO is a better car in most every category, and compared to the (ridiculous, IMO), cost of a new '02 WS6, GTO is a screaming bargain. The issue with me on that is, that GTO's paradigm has been twisted considerably to fill the role of Trans Am replacement. Is it a real GTO? Or is it a higher end Firebird with a GTO emblem?




I doubt people who need to regularly move three other adults are on the market for a coupe (and BTW it's no better in the 05 Stang or the G35, I've tried them too). Don't like that? DONT BUY a COUPE. My two tykes don't have a bit of trouble scrambling in and out. And once they are in, they have the luxury of much more spacious rear legroom than I had on my Formula. Three rear seats? Are you serious? See above - about whether you are in the market for a coupe. It's quite bizarre to expect three real humans to get in the back of a performance coupe unless you are in a Fraternity and are hosting a car-stuffing competition in conjunction with a beer party. I love the custom look my two rear bucket seats give to my GTO.

I'm hardly looking to haul 5 adults around. If I were to buy a GTO, it would fill the role of daily driver for me vs simply a toy. In that role I'd need some level of utility. 90% of the time, it's just me in the car. But occasionally, I may need to strap my three kids into the back seat.....or even carry my three kids and one wife. Had the GTO remained true to it's intermediate two door formula, this would not be a concern. But since, the current GTO bends this formula considerably, it becomes a problem for someone like me. Really too bad. A two door, V8, six speed, RWD car, that could fit my not so unreasonable needs...especially with the cache' that I personally consider the GTO lineage to have.....would have been perfect. But I think you've convinced me that this new and different GTO can't do that for me. Pity.

It's mighty superficial to think the GTO's essence is bound to trinkets like widely placed exhaust tips and some hood scoops.


Isn't that what it basically started out as..a trim package??

If your not gonna style it like a GTO...why bother calling it GTO?

If you go by history....a GTO as an F-body replacment is laughable. If you look at where the GTO was through out history it is much more a high performance personal luxury coupe than a pony car (think an MN-12 T-bird..only faster).


It is obvious that you are one of those people who feels that any opinion other than his own is incorrect...end of story. Such as the case I will kindly step out of this thread and save giving myself high blood pressure at an early age.

now now, fellas, play nice.

The GTO was never meant to be a Firebird Replacement.

It was meant to fill a void for a RWD V8 performance coupe.....but NOT an Fcar replacement. (we looked at the architecture back in 1995/96...even assigned a project name to it....the GMX-280.....but it didn't fit the bill)

It does not have three seat belts in the back because it is not designed (from the beginning, as I recall) as a 5 seat coupe......do to that requires even MORE engineering $$$$ which was not available.

(we looked at the architecture back in 1995/96...even assigned a project name to it....the GMX-280.....but it didn't fit the bill)



Hey RP, tell us more about that.....

well...........I gotta search the gray matter for a lil while, but one of the first things that struck us was that the existing architecture couldn't be 'moved around' in laymen terms. That meant no 'tumblehome'....the 'curve' if you will from the top of the window to the bottom of the door and rocker...much too 'slab sided'......and my first reaction to it was "this would make a fine Monte Carlo, but it won't do for a Camaro!"

There were a lot of things going against this project such that it was killed very early on......

well...........I gotta search the gray matter for a lil while, but one of the first things that struck us was that the existing architecture couldn't be 'moved around' in laymen terms. That meant no 'tumblehome'....the 'curve' if you will from the top of the window to the bottom of the door and rocker...much too 'slab sided'......and my first reaction to it was "this would make a fine Monte Carlo, but it won't do for a Camaro!"

There were a lot of things going against this project such that it was killed very early on......

Lack of tumblehome is also a money-saver, btw.

Everything gets cheaper. Side glass, window regulators, door hinges, Class "A" stampings, etc...

Also the tumblehome, depending on placement, results in some unused space in the interior. Shoulders are a given width, and the tumblehome generally occurs between the shoulders and the floor, meaning that the occupants can't move outboard in vehicle to take advantage of the space.

You get more room for a side impact beam though...

I also believe that tumblehome is a wonderful styling cue.

now now, fellas, play nice.

The GTO was never meant to be a Firebird Replacement.

It was meant to fill a void for a RWD V8 performance coupe.....but NOT an Fcar replacement. (we looked at the architecture back in 1995/96...even assigned a project name to it....the GMX-280.....but it didn't fit the bill)

It does not have three seat belts in the back because it is not designed (from the beginning, as I recall) as a 5 seat coupe......do to that requires even MORE engineering $$$$ which was not available.
Wanna tell us about any other options that were considered at different times, GM-80. I think that would make a great retrospective.

Or how about GMX-284? :D

Wanna tell us about any other options that were considered at different times, GM-80. I think that would make a great retrospective.

Or how about GMX-284? :D
Relentless ;)

Relentless ;)
We won't stop till we see it, and even then we will want more info than any 1 person could give!!!

If you consider the GTO to be a 4th gen TA replacement, then I agree completely. GTO is a better car in most every category, and compared to the (ridiculous, IMO), cost of a new '02 WS6, GTO is a screaming bargain. The issue with me on that is, that GTO's paradigm has been twisted considerably to fill the role of Trans Am replacement. Is it a real GTO? Or is it a higher end Firebird with a GTO emblem?
Guess I chose the wrong words, when I made a GTO/TA comparison. I wasn't purposefully implying GM made the GTO for the express purpose of 'replacing' the TA, and I'm sure that was not their intent. However, there sure are a lot of parallels. But to me the GTO looks nothing like a 4gen Firebird. Maybe that's just me...

I'm hardly looking to haul 5 adults around. If I were to buy a GTO, it would fill the role of daily driver for me vs simply a toy. In that role I'd need some level of utility. 90% of the time, it's just me in the car. But occasionally, I may need to strap my three kids into the back seat.....or even carry my three kids and one wife. Had the GTO remained true to it's intermediate two door formula, this would not be a concern. But since, the current GTO bends this formula considerably, it becomes a problem for someone like me. Really too bad. A two door, V8, six speed, RWD car, that could fit my not so unreasonable needs...especially with the cache' that I personally consider the GTO lineage to have.....would have been perfect. But I think you've convinced me that this new and different GTO can't do that for me. Pity.
You seem like someone who admires the GTO, but the car is not meant for them. It's great you admire it. But the second you mentioned 'three kids' I could have told you, this car is not for you. And unfortunately, there just aren't a lot of mid-priced V8 RWD performance coupes out there with five seats. Most all are 2+2's. Maybe you should consider the Grand Prix GXP? Or a Monte SS.

Isn't that what it basically started out as..a trim package??
Umm, nope. It began in 1964 with a tri-power 389, and some trim. EVEN THEN it had a heroic motor. In fact that's what made it stand out, moreso than the trim, I'd venture. Some history at: http://www.musclecarclub.com/musclecars/pontiac-gto/pontiac-gto-history.shtml

It is obvious that you are one of those people who feels that any opinion other than his own is incorrect...end of story.
I'm no judge of the opinions, I just make observations on what I read. There is no such thing as an 'incorrect opinion'. But if I see a misconception or something stated which I have an issue with, I might respond.

I have a book sitting in storage about the soon to be departed Holden sedan that I bought back in 1999 (yes, a whole book, not a magazine).

Part of that books mentions how GM-NA sent people to Holden to try and use this car as a replacement for the B-body for Buick, a sports coupe for Chevrolet, and even possibly an El Camino.

It doesn't go into the detail Red can bring up, but it's pretty good. One of the original members who went, stayed there. He eventially was credited with giving the spark in bringing the Monaro here as the GTO. :)

I have a book sitting in storage about the soon to be departed Holden sedan that I bought back in 1999 (yes, a whole book, not a magazine).

Part of that books mentions how GM-NA sent people to Holden to try and use this car as a replacement for the B-body for Buick, a sports coupe for Chevrolet, and even possibly an El Camino.

It doesn't go into the detail Red can bring up, but it's pretty good. One of the original members who went, stayed there. He eventially was credited with giving the spark in bringing the Monaro here as the GTO. :)


remember the title by any chance. i could use some new reading material. i'm spending too much time on my computer :D