Possible engines in top dog Camaro?

I was doing some thinking at work today, about how it has been hinted at that we may see an LS7 show up in a top model 5th gen. Now, I would absolutely love to see this happen, but is it really a possibility? The engine isn't exactly cheap, and it isn't exactly on a standard production line. If we did get an LS7 in a new Camaro, would there be cost cutting measures that would affect it, such as the removal of the dry sump system, and the use of regular steel connecting rods and valves, as opposed to the much more expensive titanium ones. Of course, this would more than likely drop the engine's revs, and in turn its HP output, but it would make it more viable. With the inclusion of better tires, better wheels, better brakes, better suspension components, a stronger clutch, a stronger rear, and the LS7 itself, I would think the price would be too high for a Camaro. Hell, I think the inclusion of the LS7 by itself would hike the price up dramatically.

I think there is no more deserving of a vehicle besides the Corvette to get this extremely mean small block engine than the Camaro, but I still have my doubts about this. There was also talk about the blown LS2, which would be much cheaper, and the 6.2L (i think) that has been hinted at replaced the LS2 in the base vette, which also would be much cheaper. I do think that if we did get an LS7, it would give us enthusiasts some firepower against the next Cobra's powerplant, as the LS7 will just as likely be as mod friendly as the blown 5.4. There is still an insane amount of power locked in this engine.

One more thought. There has been that talk about new engines for the base vette and the z06, the 6.2 and blown 6.2 (I think I have the displacement right). If there is any legitimacy to these claims, could we see the LS7 find its way into a Camaro when the Corvette gets its upgrade?

Whatever the top engine is, I think it's important that the top Camaro runs (and beats) the top Mustang, and if that means treading a bit on Corvette, so be it, although I don't think it will have to. There are some that say, for a Chevrolet Cobra fighter, just go buy a Vette. 2 problems I have with that. One, stripper, completly base Corvettes are 40 grand, and the Camaro competes with Mustang, not Corvette. Two, I don't see many Camaro fans being happy with paying, what, 35k for a nice SS that gets beat by a high 30's Mustang. I just don't believe the Camaro guys that say we don't need a car that can run with it since we already have a Corvette. That's not the point IMO, we WANT a Camaro. If we didn't, we'd all have Vettes now, and wouldn't be coming to this board. At the same time, we don't want to run 2nd fiddle to ANY Mustang (had enough of that in the 80's thank you very much), so I think we will indeed see some form of Cobra fighting top Camaro model. As to what engine...it may not necessarily need to match Cobras HP/TQ depending on weight, gearing and aero, but it will also depend on what powerplants are available. If we were building one right now, I'd think the 6.0 might come up a little short, MIGHT. 7.0 would certainly lay the smack down, but IF they had a 6.2 coming ;) , it would then be mighty close to being able to get the job done.

It is hard to imagine a "lowly" Camaro getting an LS7, but if the Mustang is going to have that much of a HALO car, I just can't see GM not giving the Camaro a fighting chance against it's prime competior. If LS7 is what it takes, then just making it available, even if it costs 40k, even if you could get a stripped vette for that, I think you have to do. Just so you can say, yes, our car handles better, looks better, and is FASTER, than our competitors car.

I think it's time for the Camaro to evolve into Force Induction...

Give me a Blown 6.0 in a Z28 and I'll eat Cobra's for lunch... ;)

I think it's time for the Camaro to evolve into Force Induction...

Give me a Blown 6.0 in a Z28 and I'll eat Cobra's for lunch... ;)

Thats exactly how I feel. I have always thought that if they use the Corvette to compete with a top dog Mustang, that it would be kind of a cop out. Give us a high performance Camaro that pulls no punches against its competiton.

I'd rather have a NA 7.0L Z28 and install the aftermarket blower myself thank you.

:D

Yeah,

But we would all envy 15%+hp increases with a simple pulley like the Cobra guys enjoy.

Cost savings I would imagine as well.

Three engine options for the next gen Camaro.

3.9 V6
5.3 L
6.0 L

I'd rather have a NA 7.0L Z28 and install the aftermarket blower myself thank you.

:D

GET OUT OF MY HEAD!!!!!!!!! :D

Yeah,

But we would all envy 15%+hp increases with a simple pulley like the Cobra guys enjoy.

Cost savings I would imagine as well.

I think with a header and cam swap on an LS7 the HP it would yield would make some of the 03/04 cobra owners envious. There may seriously be another 100 rwhp locked up in there with just simple mods. Those heads flow too damn well for just 505 HP.

OH I'm sure there is. But...

$50 pulley, or $1,500 Cam/Exhaust??? I'll take the pully, heh.

Also, I'm sure a Production 6.0 even with a Blower would be cheaper then a 7.0L Handbuilt (unless they went into mass-Production which I would highly doubt).

OH I'm sure there is. But...

$50 pulley, or $1,500 Cam/Exhaust??? I'll take the pully, heh.

Also, I'm sure a Production 6.0 even with a Blower would be cheaper then a 7.0L Handbuilt (unless they went into mass-Production which I would highly doubt).

Of course it would be more expensive. However we're talking about a racier version of the Camaro that would be limited production and out of the range of most buyers to begin with. That's the car I want! :D

OH I'm sure there is. But...

$50 pulley, or $1,500 Cam/Exhaust??? I'll take the pully, heh.

Also, I'm sure a Production 6.0 even with a Blower would be cheaper then a 7.0L Handbuilt (unless they went into mass-Production which I would highly doubt).

All the 460 rwhp Cobras I have seen running around have far more than a pulley. Try intake, full exhaust, and tune.

Unless we were to get a really restrictive exhaust, I would think all you would need are headers and a cam. Not $1,500 by any stretch. It would probably be alot cheaper to make a blown 6L, but I started this post to see if there could be any feasibility to what Guy kind of alluded to earlier, an LS7 in the Camaro.

Did he say something about the actual engine that is curently in production, or did he say the horsepower figure of the highest hp engine? I don't remember what thread it was in.

Well, It seems there are rumors of a 6.2L Blown replacing the NA 7.0 in the Z06? Of coarse, I can't really see a camaro getting the Z06 motor though, base vette yea, Z06 - doubt it...

Well, It seems there are rumors of a 6.2L Blown replacing the NA 7.0 in the Z06? Of coarse, I can't really see a camaro getting the Z06 motor though, base vette yea, Z06 - doubt it...
Agree, I think that would piss many vette owners off if a Camaro had the same engine a Z06 has. But I think the TOP MODEL should have something really strong. Along with a V6 and a LS2 in a Z28 or SS? Then a top dawg with a powerfull engine.

Three engine options for the next gen Camaro.

3.9 V6
5.3 L
6.0 L

I'd be happy with those options myself since it would be a Daily Driver.

5.3L with a M6 transmition 300hp or so would make a good DD and hopefully it could break the 25MPG mark :cool:

Well, It seems there are rumors of a 6.2L Blown replacing the NA 7.0 in the Z06? Of coarse, I can't really see a camaro getting the Z06 motor though, base vette yea, Z06 - doubt it...
If a Cadillac could get a Z06 engine, why not a Camaro? I love N/A Power too! :D

I think it's time for the Camaro to evolve into Force Induction...

Give me a Blown 6.0 in a Z28 and I'll eat Cobra's for lunch... ;)
Yes, I like this idea.

Well in my humble opinion I dont give a damn what the V6 gets, or even if there is a V6. Unless its a Turbo'd one. There better not be a POS 5.3 in there or even a LS1 unless that replaces the V6 all together. Thats old stuff.

You can for the most part assume it will have a LS2 as the base Z28 engine. I dont think it would hurt GM to go back to the old days and drop a totally different engine in the SS. If the case, that engine should be a LS7. But you'll probably see the same thing as before, the SS will have a LS2 but with perhaps better intake and exhaust optoins. Most likely a better suspension and probably a different body style, i.e. Hood, spoiler, wheels.

I'd love to have something like a ZL1 option that includes all the SS has with a LS7 and some other Vette characteristics.

-Dustin-

If a Cadillac could get a Z06 engine, why not a Camaro? :D

Now you are thinking. The CTS-V killed the Sacred Corvette Horsepower Cow. That opened things up for something other than a Corvette to get very close to Corvette horsepower.

Coudl that continue in the future?

Now you are thinking. The CTS-V killed the Sacred Corvette Horsepower Cow. That opened things up for something other than a Corvette to get very close to Corvette horsepower.

Coudl that continue in the future?

CTS-V is also $10K than the base Corvette, and retails the same for the Z06.

i dont believe it was about hp, no car in the chevy lineup can be faster that the vette. i dont know the number that the cts-v but its probally not faster than a vette. remember why the grand national was killed. because it was faster than the vette. i dont see the ls7 in any form making its way into a camaro. i think it will be an n/a 6.0l at the top and thats it.

key words here people...

i dont believe it was about hp, no car in the chevy lineup can be faster that the vette. i dont know the number that the cts-v but its probally not faster than a vette. remember why the grand national was killed. because it was faster than the vette. i dont see the ls7 in any form making its way into a camaro. i think it will be an n/a 6.0l at the top and thats it.

the Camaro is heavier than the Vette. it's also less aero than the Vette.

2+2=505hp in a Camaro does not make a Camaro faster than a Vette.

I think the 6.0L NA is the perfect engine for the Top Dog Camaro. Chevrolet is not in the same position Ford is. They have NO Corvette so they basically produce the Mustang in Higher HP/Better Handling packages to at least try to keep the Ford guys happy.

I think GM would be making a mistake producing a car with Vette HP, Worse Handling, More Weight, and almost the same price as a Vette. Let me think about that one for 2 seconds - they wouldn't sell any of them! (Suffice the 1 or 2 retards that are to stubborn to buy something other then a Camaro = Not Many).

The 6.0L would produce more HP then any "Production" Camaro has EVER had and would smoke ANY GT Mustang and probably could give some Cobra's a Run.

To the people that think we should eliminate the V6 and says the 5.3L is junk I don't understand you. Let's put the 6.0L in the base Camaro and watch it die the same death the 4th Gens did. And we'll all be on here again bitching and moaning for a 6th gen... ???

If they want to produce a Crazy Ass Pony Car with Insane HP (LS7) or whatever - save it for Pontiac and the GTO. Chevrolet does not need it.

It's got to be compareable to the Charger in Horsepower, that leaves the 6.0L 345/380....to me...
It can't have less HP than a SS truck, ya know...

LS9

Next question.

1. 427 cu.in.

2. why can't anything be faster than a vette. In a straight line I see the top end Camaro taking the base vette, period.

I'm sure you all know that the LS7 is a very unique, exotic and EXPENSIVE engine.
How much would it cost in a Camaro? Would it be a $20,000 option? More? Let's hear the business case for it.

With that said, an engine between LS2 and LS7 is what will probably be the top motor.

I say supercharge the LS2. Cheap power, GM has experience with it, won't add much to the cost, and getting more power out of it is cheap in comparision to a NA motor. And cheap performance is what the Camaro is all about. And it will be a nice rub against the Cobra with an OMG 5.4L engine now! :D

427!

427!

i second that!!!

the Camaro is heavier than the Vette. it's also less aero than the Vette.

2+2=505hp in a Camaro does not make a Camaro faster than a Vette.

thats understandable but i still dont see it happening.

2. why can't anything be faster than a vette. In a straight line I see the top end Camaro taking the base vette, period.

unfortunatly because chevy says so. not to mention thousands of vette owners being pissed because a car that sells for 20k less is faster than theirs.

thats understandable but i still dont see it happening.



unfortunatly because chevy says so. not to mention thousands of vette owners being pissed because a car that sells for 20k less is faster than theirs.
I'm curious how these same vette owners will feel about a Mustang being faster than theirs.

I'm curious how these same vette owners will feel about a Mustang being faster than theirs.

good point

I think the 6.0L NA is the perfect engine for the Top Dog Camaro. Chevrolet is not in the same position Ford is. They have NO Corvette so they basically produce the Mustang in Higher HP/Better Handling packages to at least try to keep the Ford guys happy.

I think GM would be making a mistake producing a car with Vette HP, Worse Handling, More Weight, and almost the same price as a Vette. Let me think about that one for 2 seconds - they wouldn't sell any of them! (Suffice the 1 or 2 retards that are to stubborn to buy something other then a Camaro = Not Many).

The 6.0L would produce more HP then any "Production" Camaro has EVER had and would smoke ANY GT Mustang and probably could give some Cobra's a Run.

To the people that think we should eliminate the V6 and says the 5.3L is junk I don't understand you. Let's put the 6.0L in the base Camaro and watch it die the same death the 4th Gens did. And we'll all be on here again bitching and moaning for a 6th gen... ???

If they want to produce a Crazy Ass Pony Car with Insane HP (LS7) or whatever - save it for Pontiac and the GTO. Chevrolet does not need it.
Where to begin? I'll sum it up with the fact that Chevrolet will not, NOT, go through all the trouble to come up w/ a new Camaro, with a top dog SS or whatever that costs well into the 30's, only to have it get its A*S HANDED TO IT by a Shelby which will cost only a few thousand more. It's Mustang vs Camaro, no GTO, no Corvette, no GT. The Camaro MUST be able to outperform the Mustang, at all levels. And if it means a top dog Camaro that pushes 40 grand is what it takes, thats what it takes. If someone just wants a fast car and has 40k to spend, they may very well buy a vette. So what? But who would (excuse the pun) pony up 35k bucks for a loaded SS that they have to run and hide from every Shelby they ever meet up with at a light? It's all mental, part of the reason for buying the top model of any performance car is knowing you've got the best, call it emotion, ego, or whatever. I promise you I'll spend 40 something for a vette before I'll spend 30 something for a Camaro that doesn't compete in it's class.

And as to the retard comment, I guess all the owners of COPO 427's are retards? I don't know, but they seem to be the most valuable of all Camaros of all time. Need a modern example? Try to find an '02 ZL1 Camaro, then see what the cheapest price is you can find for it is. The cheapest I've seen is 80 grand.

Sorry for the flaming tone, it's not my intent, but Chevrolet not bringing a competitive car to market is as bad as not bringing it at all. Think Mustang 2. Chevrolet must must must make the car BETTER than the Cobra, otherwise the top dog mentality, which is what sells cars of that magnitude, evaporates.

Well put. I think everyone would like to have a SS option that will force the new Cobra's to grab their ankles. Thats going to be a 427. I doubt Chevy is going to go power adder on the Camaro. From what I have seen as of late they want us to be able to brag "All Motor Bitch"

-Dustin-

I think everyone would like to have a SS option that will force the new Cobra's to grab their ankles. Thats going to be a 427.

-Dustin-
:bow: Dayum, that was funny.

I'll even go on record as saying I DON'T CARE what engine it is that puts Camaro over the top, LS7, blown 6.0, 6.2...I don't care. But I can't stomach the thought of Chevrolet coming out of the gate from the get go with the attitude of "Everyone, we know we've killed your car, we know we left you hanging for years, but here it is, your NEW CAMARO! Oh and one last thing, it will be slower than the top Mustang. Come on in and try the CoolAid!"

Now personally, knowing some of the folks working on the thing, I KNOW, they don't feel that way, so I am confident. But to those of you who don't think the Camaro has to be competitive with the Mustang. Thats what I don't get. Camaro has ALWAYS had as close to Corvette power as it could get, it has always been heavier, always been less of a handler (1982 being an exception maybe?). But the point is, they have always done the best they could for the car (hp-wise), and they have NEVER run away from the Mustang and hid behind the Corvette. [/rant] :p

:bow: Dayum, that was funny.

I'll even go on record as saying I DON'T CARE what engine it is that puts Camaro over the top, LS7, blown 6.0, 6.2...I don't care. But I can't stomach the thought of Chevrolet coming out of the gate from the get go with the attitude of "Everyone, we know we've killed your car, we know we left you hanging for years, but here it is, your NEW CAMARO! Oh and one last thing, it will be slower than the top Mustang. Come on in and try the CoolAid!"

Now personally, knowing some of the folks working on the thing, I KNOW, they don't feel that way, so I am confident. But to those of you who don't think the Camaro has to be competitive with the Mustang. Thats what I don't get. Camaro has ALWAYS had as close to Corvette power as it could get, it has always been heavier, always been less of a handler (1982 maybe being an exception maybe?). But the point is, they have always done the best they could for the car, and they have NEVER run away from the Mustang and hid behind the Corvette. [/rant] :p

:bow:

Extremely fricking well put Clean. I don't know why so many of you are ready to settle for less, just to get the Camaro back. When the Camaro comes back, it must have a hell of a performance value, especially the top dog. This is not even worth arguing to me. The top dogs are there for the performance junkies, and for bragging rights. An underperforming Camaro would be unacceptable, especially for all the time we have waited. I know Red has mentioned that he has no intention of letting a Mustang be faster than a Camaro, and I am very glad to have read that someone who actually matters to the Camaro's design feels the same way us enthusiasts do. I just can't get over how some of the guys on here will settle for anything, especially in the top model.

Whatever engine the top model Camaro will get, I am sure it will be capable of putting out more than enough power. One problem GM never has seem to had with their performance cars is horsepower, so I reserve my concerns for the Camaro over other criteria. If there was some very limited, high dollar factory special edition Camaro that came out in a few years *ahem* ZL1 *ahem*, I would think that this Camaro would warrant the added expense of the LS7, assuming the LS7 isn't replaced in a few years by the so called blown 6.2L LS9.

unfortunatly because chevy says so. not to mention thousands of vette owners being pissed because a car that sells for 20k less is faster than theirs.
A 427 equipted Camaro would not be $20k less than a base vette. A $24k Camaro with a 427 is very very unlikely...It just won't happen as far as I'm concerned. If your comparing the C6 z06 to a 427 Camaro, I doubt any Camaro will be able to take that beast around a track, or in a straight line. Unless is a super special edition, run of 9 (for 2009 model year) carbon fiber blown 427 super Camaros to go along with the Blue Devil, I don't see it happening. But who knows.

Well if rumours of the LS7 slated for VE HSV GTS are accurate, I can't see how the Camaro won't be getting an LS7! :confused:

I'm sure you all know that the LS7 is a very unique, exotic and EXPENSIVE engine.
How much would it cost in a Camaro? Would it be a $20,000 option? More? Let's hear the business case for it.

With that said, an engine between LS2 and LS7 is what will probably be the top motor.

So in continuing with the "heritage" concept...

Slotting between the 6.0L LS2 and the 7.0L LS7 would be a 6.4L 396.

So the Vette gets its 427 and the Camaro gets its 396, talk about heritage.

I'm not saying I wouldn't like a Top Dog Camaro with a Crazy 500hp engine for 40k+, I'm just saying the business sense makes NO sense at all if that makes sense???

LOL

A LS7 Camaro would be mid 40's. It makes better business sense for the GTO to have this engine is all I'm saying...

I'm not saying I wouldn't like a Top Dog Camaro with a Crazy 500hp engine for 40k+, I'm just saying the business sense makes NO sense at all if that makes sense???

LOL

A LS7 Camaro would be mid 40's. It makes better business sense for the GTO to have this engine is all I'm saying...


Well if the base LS7 doesnt go in the Z28 or SS, i do see it finding its way into a hot camaro, possibly the ZL1 if GM gets there heads out of there bum's.

I do agree, a LS7 camaro Vs LS7 Vette' i dont see the camaro walking away from the vette' and thats without any knowledge of the F5's dimensions.

If the camaro does get the 396' i sincerly hope, GM puts "Camaro Z28 396 Fuel injected" on the rear like the old 3rd gen's, tell me that wouldnt make a mustang driver drool :metal:

Now you are thinking. The CTS-V killed the Sacred Corvette Horsepower Cow. That opened things up for something other than a Corvette to get very close to Corvette horsepower.

Coudl that continue in the future?
I see no reason it shouldn't continue! :thumb: I wish we had a better idea of the price range of the new Camaro! The LS7 is what like $11,500, so add that to whatever the price would be! IMO, ppl would pay for such a Camaro with a 427, especially if they really pull off the look of the car. As others have pointed out, they paid for the ZL1's at like $95,000, it would be much cheaper than that, and would create a factory specialty car! I mean whatever it is, you can bet your ass, dealers/speed shops WILL be installing LS7's into em' anyway, so they might as well offer it as an option! :cool: I couldn't afford it, but I'm sure there are ppl who can, and will buy it! Buy them offering it, they will then create the parts for such a swap for us guys who couldn't afford it off the bat, but would save up to make the swap. Either way it will be an LS-something, so getting the LS7 in there shouldn't be much trouble for most of us. :D

It's got to be compareable to the Charger in Horsepower, that leaves the 6.0L 345/380....to me...
It can't have less HP than a SS truck, ya know...
the charger is already waiting to be beat by the new v6. we dont need to compare to it in horsepower, these arent supras you know.

The LS7 is what like $11,500, so add that to whatever the price would be! IMO, ppl would pay for such a Camaro with a 427, especially if they really pull off the look of the car.

Don't forget to take the cost of the LS2 OUT of the car ;), that cuts the price about in half. The way I see it, this top dog car is for the guys that bought an SS, then replaced the suspension, brakes, and put a supercharger on it. Lot's of 4th gen guys put 40 grand into their cars, they just did it in the aftermarket. I say make that same type of top dog car available from the factory, WITH A WARRANTY, and maintain superiority over the Cobra. If I'm a base Corvette driver (and I was until recently), I don't mind a top dog factory Camaro running with me if it exists to compete with a Mustang that can ALREADY run with me. I'd rather have a top Camaro with me than against me.

There have been plenty of highly optioned Camaros that gave the base vette a run for it's money or flat out beat it. 67-69 Z/28, COPO, LT-1, any big block Camaro, 6.6 T/A, SD455, Turbo T/A, ZL1.... And don't forget that the majority of the LS1 cars, particularly the '01s and '02s put down more power to the pavement than similarly transmissioned C5's. They weren't faster, but they put down MORE power.

lets say GM doesn't give us the LS7 straight off the assembly line...does anyone else see a chance to go back to the "roots" of the Camaro and just build COPO 5th gens to slip out the back door???

I see no reason why it can't be, and by the time it (Camaro) comes out, the LS7 won't be so new anymore. I'm with CLEAN...don't see any problem with it. And good point about the LS2 removal! I'd be happy with just a V8 rwd Camaro! :D But I know for a fact many ppl, spent 35 k on 4th gens, then put ungodly amounts of $$$, into aftermarket mods on top of that! IMHO, a 427 T56 Camaro would sell like hotcakes! :alert:

If the CTS-V is scheduled to get the LS7, and a theoritical Camaro would come with an LS7 option from the factory, the increase in volume could very well drive the costs of producing the engine down even further, perhaps even making it more viable. If the GTO actually has a future at Pontiac, and allegations of a Judge model have any validity to them, an LS7 inclusion into that vehicle would bring costs down even more. I know the engine is supposed to be a very special unique piece of equipment, but if GM could find a way to use it in broader applications, I can't think of a reason why they wouldn't, from a business standpoint. How many of you guys thought when the LS2 was first introduced that it would only be in the c6 and GTO. GM is putting it in everything now. If GM can accomplish the same thing with the higher cost LS7, I am sure they will.

Clean, you bring up a good point about the new Cobra's power output. It will be cheaper than the base vette, and probably either accelerate right with it, or even leave it behind. Ford pays no regard to a "Corvette rule" over at FoMoCo, and every sale lost to a Cobra brings GM no profit at all, regardless of the Corvette HP ceiling over at GM. At least with a Camaro that can compete or hopefully exceed with the Cobra's level, they can keep the sales coming to GM. As it has been brought up many times anyways, a Corvette buyer is not necessarily a Camaro buyer.

the thing that gets me the most is that FoMoCo has said they want their top Mustang to be a Corvette competitor.

the reason there is no "ceiling" on the Mustang is because it's Fords everything car. they have a trim level or option list to fill every slot. i think if they really wanted to, they could even slaughter their own sacred cow, the GT.

i really think that GM needs to step up to the plate with the new Camaro and say "Camaro has always been our Mustang fighter, if they're gonna go after the Vette, we need to build a Camaro that can do the same thing."

I'm sure you all know that the LS7 is a very unique, exotic and EXPENSIVE engine.
How much would it cost in a Camaro? Would it be a $20,000 option? More? Let's hear the business case for it.

With that said, an engine between LS2 and LS7 is what will probably be the top motor.


good question. I too don't see an Ls7 in a camaro.

But they COULD if they WANT to. Look at the GT500's motor. It's basically the Ford GT motor with an iron block, dry-sump removed, and different internals. Ford will be using a roots style blower on the GT500 but only because they couldn't secure enough twin-screws for production. But for the most part, it's a slightly detuned version of the Ford GT motor and somehow, they've found a way to get it into the mustang.

I'm sure the GT500's motor isn't cheap. Infact, i'd wager it's very close in cost to the z06's ls7. Yet this cost didn't prevent them from getting it into an under-40k mustang. I don't see why GM couldn't do the same with the Ls7 had they wanted too (keyword being "wanted"). Ford made a business case for it, and to many enthusiasts here, that's business case enough (fact that competitor offers it)

But having said that, GM most likely won't go that route. Perhaps a supercharged Ls2 would be a cheaper and just as powerful option. Should be interesting.

Another thing, GM wasn't liberal with the 4th gen camaro as far as engine options. They only offered 1 v6 and 1 v8, and that was it. Ford on the other hand offered 1 v6 and 3 v8's last couple of years of Sn95 production. So GM actually offering more than one v8 option on the 5th gens may just be a dream...who knows.

I for one would like to see lots of special editions, and more variety in trim and engine options. One reason for the mustangs success is the fact that Ford makes a mustang for everyone from the trendy 16 year old H.S girl to the hardcore enthusiasts and everyone in between. Want simple styling and heritage? get the v6. Want affordable/value performance? go for the GT. Want more performance than GT but don't want to spend 35-40k? go for the Mach-1. Want the ultimate top of the line, balls to the walls mustang and sub-500 horses and tons of potential? There's your GT500. That's a good recipe for success imo. GM should be taking note.

One reason for the mustangs success is the fact that Ford makes a mustang for everyone from the trendy 16 year old H.S girl to the hardcore enthusiasts and everyone in between. Want simple styling and heritage? get the v6. Want affordable/value performance? go for the GT. Want more performance than GT but don't want to spend 35-40k? go for the Mach-1. Want the ultimate top of the line, balls to the walls mustang and sub-500 horses and tons of potential? There's your GT500. That's a good recipe for success imo. GM should be taking note.

thats what i've been trying to say!!! i think GM should look into going this route with the 5th gens. make it appeal to EVERYONE!!!

if Ford has a Mustang for everyone, then there should be a Camaro for everyone.

I'm curious how these same vette owners will feel about a Mustang being faster than theirs.

REALLY pissed.

let me say first i am in no way against them putting the ls7 in a camaro and if they did it id be the first one saving my money for one. the sound alone when firing up would make the mustang owner soil themselves. priceless. i am all for this. but from the trends from chevy and other car makers I just dont see it. i really hope im wrong. they all seem to be leaning toward less, not more options. make one car that everybody likes with a few options. there always seems to be a compromise. we all know what the camaro should be, all im saying is i think this is what it will be. also i never said the camaro should not be faster than a mustang, of course the camaro should beat every mustang.


lets say GM doesn't give us the LS7 straight off the assembly line...does anyone else see a chance to go back to the "roots" of the Camaro and just build COPO 5th gens to slip out the back door???

no. those days are long gone. we can only hope though right.

If the camaro does get the 396' i sincerly hope, GM puts "Camaro Z28 396 Fuel injected" on the rear like the old 3rd gen's, tell me that wouldnt make a mustang driver drool

yes it would, but id rather go way old school and want the 396 plastered on the front of the fenders, hockey stripe or not? well thats up to you.

Maybe it's not an LSx series engine going into the car at all.

Hear me out.

From what we're told, it's going to be between 400hp and 505hp. I remember a few months back there was talk about LQ9 or something. Isn't there a 440hp engine coming out for the GMT900 Silverado SS? Could that be the engine we're getting for our super-Camaro?

LQ9 is an IRON LS2 basically.

Could have a 440hp LS2 if GM wanted and that would be fine for a "Top Dog Production" Camaro.

(Not counting special editions - "Production")

So GM actually offering more than one v8 option on the 5th gens may just be a dream...who knows.

I think Chevrolet once again sees the value in offering a base V8 car. Take your average V6 with base or V6 "sport" suspension, stick a 5.3 V8 in it, charge $800 or so for the V8 option and call it a day. There are plenty of people out there that want to be able to say "I have a V8 Camaro" without having to pay a wild price jump over the V6.

Could have a 440hp LS2 if GM wanted and that would be fine for a "Top Dog Production" Camaro.

(Not counting special editions - "Production")

It would be fine for a Camaro that is left to suck on the Mustangs dust. It certainly sounds like the Camaro won't have any significant weight advantage on its side, so this gives a "top dog production" Camaro that will be trounced by its competition in the segment.

Wonder what Dodge will have in store for us?

I think Chevrolet once again sees the value in offering a base V8 car. Take your average V6 with base or V6 "sport" suspension, stick a 5.3 V8 in it, charge $800 or so for the V8 option and call it a day. There are plenty of people out there that want to be able to say "I have a V8 Camaro" without having to pay a wild price jump over the V6.

We kind of already touched on this in another thread, but I think it is a great idea. Stick the 5.3 in a base car, and I am sure it will sell well. I just really don't want to see the 5.3 in the next higher trim level Camaro, be it SS or z28. I would much prefer to see a detuned (or not, although doubtful) LS2 in it.

Whatever the top dog is should go above and beyond the LS2. Everything is getting this engine now, and in a high performing, track-ready Camaro I can't see putting "just" an LS2 in there.

i still say V-6, LS2, LS7...add the model names accordingly.

I rather like tha idea of an rs model with a v6 and a v8, much like the 3rd gens.

I say go with the v6 and the DoD 5.3 for the rs models, an LS2 for the middle model, and an LS7 variant for the top model.

I rather like tha idea of an rs model with a v6 and a v8, much like the 3rd gens.

I say go with the v6 and the DoD 5.3 for the rs models, an LS2 for the middle model, and an LS7 varient for the top model.

DUH, i forgot about the RS model. that would be a good place to drop in a 5.3

godofdragons :

the charger is already waiting to be beat by the new v6. we dont need to compare to it in horsepower, these arent supras you know. My point is the"Hemi"...name = 345 hp.....
People aren't going to ponder power to weight ratio's in the showroom. They're gonna be like, "Is that thing got as much power as a Hemi ???" Salesman, "Naaaa but it can still smoke a hemi"...(People don't put much confidence in these kind of sales pitch's nowadays.)
I too would LOVE to see a HERITAGE Camaro with a HERITAGE displacement....ie.: the Infamous 396!..talk about a HOOK..(in Top Dog, ofcourse)

3.9 in base 5.3 in RS 6.0 in Z28 and blown 6.2 in SS. LS7 is too exspensive and GM is going to make a blown 6.2 anyways, not for the base vette tho. The LS7 block can't be touched. They have already maxed out the block, the only mods left are bolt ons. But TT or SC might be a good road to head down for it. Im all for bringing back a 396.

3.9 in base 5.3 in RS 6.0 in Z28 and blown 6.2 in SS. LS7 is too exspensive and GM is going to make a blown 6.2 anyways, not for the base vette tho. The LS7 block can't be touched. They have already maxed out the block, the only mods left are bolt ons. But TT or SC might be a good road to head down for it. Im all for bringing back a 396.

What about the block can't be touched? GM may not boost a 7L for production, but Lingenfelter seems to think there is enough meat left in the sleeves to boost his cars to insanely high levels, and offer a warranty as well.

396 :bow:

Maybe more like 378.

Maybe they won't do they will do a more modern cu.in. engine. It doesn't have to be a 427, or a 350 or a 396. I'm figuring that the next ls7 change will be a slightly stroked engine. Like 433 or some odd number, but probably maketed under Liters, like 7.1 liter (433) or 7.2 liter (440 (which has been done by oldsmobile in the past)).

Maybe more like 378. :lol:

I don't really care about "heritage' cubic inch numbers, as long as the engine makes more power than it needs to.

I guess we aren't going to be getting any "hints" in this thread from people in the know at GM, because thus far it has just been our speculation. Maybe GM isn't entirely sure yet, but I wonder what they have been considering.

I guess we aren't going to be getting any "hints" in this thread .

Maybe more like 378.

I think that's a hint.

I think that's a hint.


378ci=6.2L :D

I think that's a hint.

Yes, I suppose it is. :D

more hints damn it

LS7? A bit of a stretch guys....

A blown LS2 would be yummy though...show the Ford guys how it's done.

i wouldn't say it's stretching to think we might get the LS7. by the time the Camaro is released, who knows whats gonna be sittin between the fenders of other GM models.

I don't believe we should get the LS7, 427...the Vette got it's Heritage displacement. I believe a 396 variant redesigned for the mystery "C" car, would not only be a brilliant marketing ploy, but trend for the modern GM muscle cars.
Just De-Stroke it, instead of a 4.00" stroke, drop it to 3.75" and or slightly reduce bore diameter from 4.125" to 4.100" or close.\

It would be simple, and for a Top Dog Camaro, at top of price listing, I think it's doable.. :cool:

(There's a good write up on the LS7 in the Aug 2005 issue of CHP, Chevy High Performance, my fav rag..)

i agree the Vette got it's Heritage displacement...

but on that same thought process....

the Z/28 should come with a 302...

and the SS should either have a really warmed over small block or a high output big block...

doesn't sound like something GM will be doing anytime soon.

the Z/28 should come with a 302...



I really don't think so. I'm looking for the spirit of the original Z/28....

Not a car bound by the letter of the SCCA TransAm rulebook from 1966-1969.

i wouldn't say it's stretching to think we might get the LS7. by the time the Camaro is released, who knows whats gonna be sittin between the fenders of other GM models.

It's more than a stretch. Nobody is going to buy a $50,000 Camaro.

I really don't think so. I'm looking for the spirit of the original Z/28....

Not a car bound by the letter of the SCCA TransAm rulebook from 1966-1969.


thats what i was saying.

my point is, ok...the Vette got it's heritage displacement, that's great. but just because it didn't doesn't mean the 5th gen would be better off if it did the same thing.

It's more than a stretch. Nobody is going to buy a $50,000 Camaro.

you sure about that...look how much the limited runs in the last years of the 4th gen were selling for...Berger?...ZL1? i'm not saying they have to be numbers cars, but it would be nice to see an LS7 go into a limited run...something along the lines of the 4th gen SS(but with a name change :D )

i agree the Vette got it's Heritage displacement...

but on that same thought process....

the Z/28 should come with a 302...

302, thats a Ford thing (289, 302, 351, 390, 427, 428, 429, 460)

Chevy's magic numbers are 283, 327, 350, 396, 427, 454, 502. Besides I think the 70+ LT1 was a more definitive motor and that was a 350. Then again I'm more partial to early 2nd gen f-bodies than anything else in the cars' history.

The V model Caddys deserve and at least the CTS-V will get the LS7. They are in direct competition with BMW M cars and the new M5 is 500hp and the new M3 is 400.

It's more than a stretch. Nobody is going to buy a $50,000 Camaro.

This is what some people on here don't understand. They have HP on the brain and that is all.

500HP LS7:
- Expensive Engine in itself = $$$$$$$$$$
- Transmission has to be able to handle the power = $$$
- Better Engine cooling = $$$
- Stronger Drivetrain/Rear Axle (especially if IRS) - $$$$$$$$$$
- Not going to sell many (due to cost which drives cost up more) = $$$


If you want to have a special edition camaro with a limited run then fine, i'll buy the LS7 or the Blown LS2. But for the standard lineup anything more then a NA 6.2L would be vehicular suicide, LOL.

V6
5.3
6.2

And I'd put money on it!

302, thats a Ford thing (289, 302, 351, 390, 427, 428, 429, 460)302 DZ motor was ,69 High Output smallblock Chevy used in the Trans Am races. Still highly sought after today. Capable of over 400HP....then.
1969 Chevrolet Camaro Z28 / 302 / 4 spd / 4.10 290@5800 290@4200 7.4 15.1@95mph R&T 12/91

It's interesting that the LS7 went back to a more traditional port design, and made lots more HP.
Destroking and using lower cost parts with slightly lower redline, like Stainless valves instead of Titanium...see, affordable variant. Like how the IROC's received the cast iron heads when the Vettes got the Aluminum D-ports.(L98's)
It can be done, if they have the will, there's a way...not that I'll hold my breath. ;)
6.5L.. :eek:

302 DZ motor was ,69 High Output smallblock Chevy used in the Trans Am races. Still highly sought after today. Capable of over 400HP....then.

Yeah I know DZ/EZ 5 liter motors were used in trans-am, I assume mandated after Ford beat the snot out of Ferrarri with a 7 liter in international racing. However in the current day, 302's or 5 liters or whatever you want to use to describe them are associated more with Ford where as 5.7/350 is very much a GM signature engine/displacement.

As for whatever magic this engine possessed (since the engine used GM's 461/462/492 head casting which was essentially its production performance cylinder head casting from the 60's and into the 70's) makes it nothing more than a smaller cousin to the LT-1 which was rated at 370hp in solid lifter form in the vette (using a slightly smaller cam than the DZ/EZ motors) and only slightly less in the camaro (methinks 360, but I can't remember) versus its claimed 290hp for the 302.

theres always a winner and a loser in a horsepower war.

Camaro won in the 60s/70s with the 396 and the cross ram 302. (obviously excluding the hemi cuda) Mustang has been winning for a while now with the S/C cobra... id say its time the tables are turned :cz28:

This is what some people on here don't understand. They have HP on the brain and that is all.
Not necessarily HP, just class leading performance (Corvette not in same class so don't go there :D )

500HP LS7:
- Expensive Engine in itself = $$$$$$$$$$
- Transmission has to be able to handle the power = $$$
- Better Engine cooling = $$$
- Stronger Drivetrain/Rear Axle (especially if IRS) - $$$$$$$$$$
- Not going to sell many (due to cost which drives cost up more) = $$$
How much more expensive is it? Is it more expensinve than putting a supercharger on a 6.0 or 6.2? How much hp/tq will the F5's transmissions take right out of the box? What capacity and performance will the cooling system have, will it need to be upgraded at all? What rear end will they use? Are they developing a drivetrain for todays power outputs, or are they designing it for the engines that the car will actually be using? Of course it won't be the volume seller, it's the halo car. What % of sales do the Z06 and Cobra get in their respective cars? And lastly, how much did the '98's price go up when they picked up 60-70hp with the LS1? How much did GM have to beef up the cooling system, transmission, rear end (haha), and fuel system? How much cost did it add to the car? The SSR too, it just got an extra 80hp, how much more does the '05 cost over the '04?

I'm not saying there will be NO cost in a T.D.C., but where are these $20,000 numbers coming from? Hell the vette didn't even go up that much, and it's got an aluminum frame! Ford brings their car in at high 30's...supercharged. $50,000? Please....

If you want to have a special edition camaro with a limited run then fine, i'll buy the LS7 or the Blown LS2. But for the standard lineup anything more then a NA 6.2L would be vehicular suicide, LOL.

V6
5.3
6.2

And I'd put money on it!
RIGHT ON! And remember, the ;) rumored ;) 6.2 just MIGHT be able to beat the Shelby, so all of this LS7, s/c LS2 talk is PURELY speculation.

unfourtanatly its all about volume. give them something most people want. what will they sell the most of. thats why theres no rc silvarado ss and the vortec max and 5.3 ho are only availible in ext cabs also. hell they will probally write off the cobra as a limited prodiction car that they dont need to compete with. i dont like, but this is what i think will happen.

3.8 v6
base and an rs model

6.0 ls2
z28 and ss

and thats it. thats what i think. i hope im wrong but i dont think i will be.

i got a funny feeling we might be seeing the blown 6.2 in the top dog...

they have one in a Caddy right now and it's puttin out 505hp(which an insider has ;) hinted we could see in the 5th gen), we may not get the Vettes motor(and GAWD i hope i'm wrong) but we may get it's hp.

3.8 v6
base and an rs model

6.0 ls2
z28 and ss

and thats it. thats what i think. i hope im wrong but i dont think i will be.
So either a mid-200 hp V6 or a 400 hp V8??? That's a pretty big gap.

So either a mid-200 hp V6 or a 400 hp V8??? That's a pretty big gap.

Well, if the its a two model run and they bring a 400hp V8 to the table for the same entry price as a GT, what is there to bitch about? If your a speed junky, nothing. Now if they do a two model run and the top knocker f-bod runs an LS2 and cost the same as a cobra and your choice is either a slooooooooooowwwwwwwww sub 20k V6 or a 30k plus V8, yeah there would be much to get crappy about. It makes sense and would be nice if there is a three tier scheme, but you guys will have to wait and see?

However, that begs the question, what if GM introduces a 2 car line up at launch and its a V6 with like 250 hp (just illustrative since I niether care to look or give a damn about what the generals V6 line up is) and they introduce a 325 or 350 hp V8 at the same or lighter weight as its competitor (but at a better price point)? Are you guys gonna give it the thumbs down and snub it. Cause I can reasonably assure you, that a 300hp 300+ cid V8 Camaro with an identical body weight using about the same gearing with about the same amount of power absorbtion from the drivetrain will out accelerate a mustang with a 300hp 281 cid V8 (hint; there aint no replacment for displacement).

Or what if a new f-body only edges out the mustang in every catagory except price (where it soundly defeats it), does that make it a bad car or unworthy of the camaro name? Or how bout if the mustang is just that good and it would be impossible to improve the performance without adding substantially to the cost of the car, does that make it a bad car and an unworthy sucessor?

Here's a thought, all this talk about LS2. Just suppose, what if they skipped that step altogether and just went w/ a v6, and then a 5.3 or whatever they have then as a GT competitor, then skipped over the LS2, and offered the 6.2 or s/c 6.2, or LS7, or whatever as the engine for the top model(s)?

V6 is competitive w/ mustang
5.3 is competitive w/ 4.6 GT
TDC engine is competitive w/ Cobra

GTO and whatever big coupes and sedans, along with Corvette, gets the 6.0 standard, but Camaro has the nuclear weapon as an option.

By the time the car gets here numerous scenarios could take place. Just as long as the Z28 can give the top M*stang a run for it's money by any means necessary, I'll be cool. ;) :)

Here's a thought, all this talk about LS2. Just suppose, what if they skipped that step altogether and just went w/ a v6, and then a 5.3 or whatever they have then as a GT competitor, then skipped over the LS2, and offered the 6.2 or s/c 6.2, or LS7, or whatever as the engine for the top model(s)?

V6 is competitive w/ mustang
5.3 is competitive w/ 4.6 GT
TDC engine is competitive w/ Cobra

GTO and whatever big coupes and sedans, along with Corvette, gets the 6.0 standard, but Camaro has the nuclear weapon as an option.

I think this may be likely, as all of the talk of an 6.2 ls3 replacing the ls2 in the vette would likely happen around the same time our top dog Camaro actually hit the market place.

If a 5.3 is used in the base, I would sincerely hope it is making over 300hp. Just enough is to outaccelerate is the Mustang is not good enough, especially since we have had f-bodies making 350hp in stock trim since 1998. I would expect no less than 350hp, at the very least, from a base v8. I do not want to see the 4th gens out accelerating the 5th gens. Plus, if the 5th gen runs the IRS, there wont be the same amount of drivetrain absorbtion, the 5th gen will have more. And if it weighs slightly more, that isn't helping the cause any either. GM's engines easily have the capability of making much more horsepower for the dollar then Ford's modular engines, so I don't understand why some people would want to settle for less.

I think this may be likely, as all of the talk of an 6.2 ls3 replacing the ls2 in the vette would likely happen around the same time our top dog Camaro actually hit the market place.

If a 5.3 is used in the base, I would sincerely hope it is making over 300hp. Just enough is to outaccelerate is the Mustang is not good enough, especially since we have had f-bodies making 350hp in stock trim since 1998. I would expect no less than 350hp, at the very least, from a base v8. I do not want to see the 4th gens out accelerating the 5th gens. Plus, if the 5th gen runs the IRS, there wont be the same amount of drivetrain absorbtion, the 5th gen will have more. And if it weighs slightly more, that isn't helping the cause any either. GM's engines easily have the capability of making much more horsepower for the dollar then Ford's modular engines, so I don't understand why some people would want to settle for less.

Who cares if the 4th gen is faster than a 5th gen. Nobody cared how fast they were when they were brand new, so why does it suddenly matter now? 350hp fbodies got their asses handed to them by 225hp 15 second 1998 mustangs (at least in the only number that matters - sales)

I'm sure they will have 400hp + top dog camaro, but i don't understand why anybody has any angst about a base V8 camaro that might only have ~300hp. The base camaro doesn't have to be faster than anything to be a sales success because noone buys a car based on what it beats in a race (except enthusiasts who make up an irrelevent section of the market). Engines in boxes don't sell.

I will care, as will just about every other Camaro enthusiast out there. Its not like having a faster Camaro is going to hurt sales. Alot of the reason I gave the fbody a try is because of how much faster I heard it was than a Mustang, and I am not the only person I know who owns one that feels the same. Enthusiasts may be the minority, but we also tend to have the loudest voices.

I still can't believe how against performance some people are on a Camaro website. Especially when the hp increase in question would very likely have little effect on the MSRP of the car. Many of you seem so brainwashed by this "engines in a box" mantra on this website it is disturbing. No kidding engines in a box don't sell, we have plenty of evidence to back that up. Do you really think the 5th gen is just going to be a box though? Why not put a great engine, in a nice car?

Its not like having a faster Camaro is going to hurt sales.

Actually, the horsepower numbers did hurt sales in a way. Some people don't care for the ultimate in power, but they want something that is sorta fast and fun. When comparing between the Mustang and the F-car, 300+ horsepower turned people toward the Mustang because to them, 300+ was overkill and more than they needed or more than they felt they could control. The 200 or so the Mustang had was "good enough". Sale for Ford, no sale for GM.

Of course, some opted for the V6 F-car at that point which was comparible in power to a base V8 Mustang, but only if they weren't set on having that nice V8, which was rare.

I'm not anti-performance. I still think and whole-heartedly believe the top camaro will have plenty of HP. I'm able to seperate my enthusiast side from my practical side though and know that HP doesn't sell cars

Since mustang sold circles around fbody despite giving up over 100 actual hp in 1998 and 90hp in later years, i'm pretty sure i'm on the right track. Also, the fact that nissan/infiniti are having decent success selling ~275hp sporty cars, or how about the anemic RX8, or 340hp chargers that weigh as much as a full size pick-up truck and perform like one too.

Noone is saying make the 5th gen a turtle. Just understand, John Q public couldn't give less of a **** if he's +/- a fender on a mustang GT since John Q public would never actually street race or take it to the track anyway.

Well, I think GM would be smart if they offered a bit more of a range of horsepower numbers... Maybe more than just two engine choices.

Wouldn't that be great?

Actually, the horsepower numbers did hurt sales in a way. Some people don't care for the ultimate in power, but they want something that is sorta fast and fun. When comparing between the Mustang and the F-car, 300+ horsepower turned people toward the Mustang because to them, 300+ was overkill and more than they needed or more than they felt they could control. The 200 or so the Mustang had was "good enough". Sale for Ford, no sale for GM.

Of course, some opted for the V6 F-car at that point which was comparible in power to a base V8 Mustang, but only if they weren't set on having that nice V8, which was rare.

How many people that actually buy Pony cars for the fun factor know what horsepower actually is. In the real world, I have never heard of anyone complaining that a car has too much horsepower versus its competitors. I still don't see that as a viable arguement for purposely building a weaker v8 motor. I am sure there are people that feel over 300 hp is too much, but I really doubt this is the norm. If people were only satisfied with "just enough" power, would they be selling Hemis in the LX cars like they do? Doubtful. If 200 hp is good enough, why bother releasing a 250 hp v6 in the base Camaro?

Styling is definetly the number one thing that sells a vehicle to the public. But I would not disregard power as something that helps sell a vehicle. The more powerful 400 hp GTO is having no problems selling with few discounts, while the 350 hp GTO sat on the lots.

I'm not anti-performance. I still think and whole-heartedly believe the top camaro will have plenty of HP. I'm able to seperate my enthusiast side from my practical side though and know that HP doesn't sell cars

Since mustang sold circles around fbody despite giving up over 100 actual hp in 1998 and 90hp in later years, i'm pretty sure i'm on the right track. Also, the fact that nissan/infiniti are having decent success selling ~275hp sporty cars, or how about the anemic RX8, or 340hp chargers that weigh as much as a full size pick-up truck and perform like one too.

Noone is saying make the 5th gen a turtle. Just understand, John Q public couldn't give less of a **** if he's +/- a fender on a mustang GT since John Q public would never actually street race or take it to the track anyway.

Many of the above cars are selling based off their styling. My sister doesn't even know what a rotary engine is, but she said she likes the Rx8, because of the way it looks. A no brainer there. John Q Public may not street race, but many John Qs brag, and it is hard to have bragging rights when there is nothing to brag about. How may Vette/Porsche owners have you heard brag about some area or another of their cars, even though they never race them. I know have heard more then a few.
All I am trying to say is that styling is definetly the number one thing that sells a car, as we have seen in the past in the marketplace, and will continue to see into the future. I just think it would be inexcusable for GM to put anything less than a 350hp v8 in the base v8 car. I would be completely turned off by a new Camaro that only ran .1 second quicker through the 1/4 than a Mustang, especially knowing that GM has the reserves to easily outgun the Ford engines.
I still stand by my statement that to say HP doesn't help sell performance cars is ignorant.

How many people that actually buy Pony cars for the fun factor know what horsepower actually is.

Well, you gotta remember that everyone's definition of "enough" horsepower is different. :)

In the real world, I have never heard of anyone complaining that a car has too much horsepower versus its competitors.

It happened, believe me. It was especially common among female dbuyers. No stereotype implied, just the facts there. 300 hp scared many people away. 200 was more withing their comfort zone.

I still don't see that as a viable arguement for purposely building a weaker v8 motor.

More sales because the buyer has more of a choice both power-wise and finance-wise.

I am sure there are people that feel over 300 hp is too much, but I really doubt this is the norm.

Not the norm, but definitely a factor.

If people were only satisfied with "just enough" power, would they be selling Hemis in the LX cars like they do? Doubtful.

Have you really looked at those Hemi sales numbers? I haven't myself but I was told they are not as good when the numbers get added up. I need to see if I can dig those up....

But anyway, we are not talking about now, we are talking about back in the mid-late 90s or so when it was noticed more and when f-body sales were crucial. This was when when the Mustang had not much more than 200 hp base and the f-body had 100 more. You gotta look at the broader spectrum. The the LS1 f-body was still being made, those Hemis were barely out, if at all.

Styling is definetly the number one thing that sells a vehicle to the public.

Right, and the horsepower problem was not the number one sales deterrant, but once again, definitely a factor. Those Hemi cars are not aggressive muscle cars, they are more of a luxury vehicle. The power is preceived differently. In a Camaro, 350hp is loud, rough and aggressive. In a sedan, it is refined for passing power, cruising speed, etc. etc.

more powerful 400 hp GTO is having no problems selling with few discounts, while the 350 hp GTO sat on the lots.

Compare that to Mustang sales with less horsepower than both GTOs. :)

And those older GTOs sat only because it was leaked that the LS2 would be in the new GTO, so everyone who wanted a GTO waited for that.

I just think it would be inexcusable for GM to put anything less than a 350hp v8 in the base v8 car.

Yeah, I agree on that one. As I said, in my previous post, times have changed and power is up across the boards so everyone is used to 300+.

I still say that it would be great for there to be a base V8 and then later on, an "ass-kicker" V8...

I still stand by my statement that to say HP doesn't help sell performance cars is ignorant.

That is hard to argue against but is not always a factor...only most of the time.

The 3.9 Will Be Nice For The Ladies, The 5.3l ( Which Is What Is In My 01 Tahoe) Is A Great Little Engine. It Pulls My Tahoe And My Kids Around Just Fine. More Than Likely It Will Be The 6.0 In The Top Dog For The First Year. As For Me I'll Buy The 5.3, Throw 5k At It, And Crush The Cobra's.

Benny____________
1986 Z28
388 Stroker@425hp, Built T5, Richmond 373's, Eaton Locker
All New Front And Rear Suspension, Lowered 1 Inch All Around
Great Daily Driver

All this sounds fine to me. I don't feel that the mid level engine has to beat up on the GT, just offer a similar feel. Just a nice pleasing driving experience, broad torque curve, good sound. Similar to the late 3rd gens with the L03 (no flames please).

I would probably want the TDC, but my wife would most certainly go for the base model w/ the smaller, less powerful V8, but she would definetly want the 8.

Jason, like the wheels :bow:

It happened, believe me. It was especially common among female dbuyers. No stereotype implied, just the facts there. 300 hp scared many people away. 200 was more withing their comfort zone.

I am sure it happened, I just have my exteme doubts about the frequency of which it occured that is insinuated on this board. I would bet that for every one person that was actually scared of the power output of the car, there were more than a few buyers that would make up for it. Too much Hp is not something I contribute to the death of the 4th gen. 9 years with poor advertising and no serious redesigns in an increasingly style competitive segment is.



More sales because the buyer has more of a choice both power-wise and finance-wise.
Isn't that what the v6 is for? To give the buyer an alternative engine if they want the car cheaper, but don't care about the performance. Insurance might be higher, but as we all know with GM's LS engines, fuel efficiency isn't an issue.



Not the norm, but definitely a factor.

I am sure it is a factor, but somehow I doubt that it is as big a one as played up on this board. I have never seen an auto manufacturer that didn't advertise that their automobile made more power in its segment than any of the competitors, because that is point worth making to spark interest in the vehicle.



Have you really looked at those Hemi sales numbers? I haven't myself but I was told they are not as good when the numbers get added up. I need to see if I can dig those up....

I believe the Hemi sales make up around half of all LX cars sold, give or take. I am not completely sure on this though, but I know it is a solid percentage.


But anyway, we are not talking about now, we are talking about back in the mid-late 90s or so when it was noticed more and when f-body sales were crucial. This was when when the Mustang had not much more than 200 hp base and the f-body had 100 more. You gotta look at the broader spectrum. The the LS1 f-body was still being made, those Hemis were barely out, if at all.

I am trying to look at the broader spectrum, and I don't think keeping Hp down is a real issue to be concerned with in the 5th gen. I think the styling, and keeping it from being an "engine in a box" is. The fbody sales may have been dying off in the 90s, but apparently someone at Ford was concerned with the growing gap in Hp between the Cambirds and the Mustang when the LS1 was introduced, because it wasn't long before the PI head equipped Mustangs came out with 260 Hp, to try to narrow the gap some.


Right, and the horsepower problem was not the number one sales deterrant, but once again, definitely a factor. Those Hemi cars are not aggressive muscle cars, they are more of a luxury vehicle. The power is preceived differently. In a Camaro, 350hp is loud, rough and aggressive. In a sedan, it is refined for passing power, cruising speed, etc. etc.

Camaros are kind of thought of as loud, rough, and aggressive period ( I wouldn't have it any other way.) Its just the image that fits the Camaro. I don't think that this has a whole lot to do with Hp, just its styling.



Compare that to Mustang sales with less horsepower than both GTOs. :)

And those older GTOs sat only because it was leaked that the LS2 would be in the new GTO, so everyone who wanted a GTO waited for that.

The Mustang kills the GTO in sales, but it is because of styling, and price, and I have said multiple times that styling is the most important factor. I just don't think it is fair to punish the guys who aren't going to be able to afford a $30k Camaro with a $20k v8 Camaro that doesn't kick ass, and smoke the competition. There are people that buy these cars for more than just image. It has been brought up numerous times that the Camaro and the Mustang are not solely crossed shopped with each other either. With more cars like the 350z, which will likely recieve a bump to 300hp on all of its models, a rumored 350hp Suby STI, a rumored Dodge Challenger, an Evo X, a possible RX-7, and possible others, I think having a fire breathing base v8 is even more prevalent.
As I stated, we enthusiasts may be in the minority, but we are the ones who make our voices known. How many people's opinions have been swayed due to advise you have gave them? JasonD wrote tonight that his fiance now appreciates third gens, and no longer likes Jettas. Sounds like his opinion had a large degree of influence over her. Case in point.

I guess my point for all this rambling is, keeping Hp down should be the least of concerns on the engineer's minds behind the developed of the 5th gen. Last I checked, I had complete control of my right foot, and I can only assume this is a constant for everyone else as well. If you don't like the power, don't put your foot to the floor. I still want a great base v8, not another 305 disaster.

awhile back i said i would like to see GM go back to a more broader spectrum of models ala 3rd gen. i know it all comes down to the beancounters, but we need more than one V8 and a nice peppy V6. and i'm not just talkin like 3.9, 5.3, 6.2.....hows this sound to you guys......

3.9 in base and RS
optional 5.3 in base and RS
5.3 H.O. in base SS
optional 6.2 in SS
s/c 6.2 or LS7 (i'm hoping for the later) in the Z/28

change the names as you will, just my preference. sounds like alot, but it would cover all bases and all buyers from mild to wild straight out of the dealer.

Its got my vote, except I don't think the v6 should be offered in RS trim at all. Other than that, I am all for it. Don't think we will see that many v8s though, unless there are some special editions cars made (fingers crossed for ZL1.)

(fingers crossed for ZL1.)

that just made me giggle...LS7....ZL1......[Homer simpson voice]ooooooooooooohhhhhh baaaaabbyyyy[/Homer Simpson voice]

that just made me giggle...LS7....ZL1......[Homer simpson voice]ooooooooooooohhhhhh baaaaabbyyyy[/Homer Simpson voice]

I would get out of my chair and go scream and dance in the middle of my street if I knew GM was going to put an LS7 in a special edition ZL1. Then I would promptly come back inside and figure out a way to afford it in the next few years.

I would get out of my chair and go scream and dance in the middle of my street if I knew GM was going to put an LS7 in a special edition ZL1. Then I would promptly come back inside and figure out a way to afford it in the next few years.

:lol: i'd wait til i figured out how to afford it before running through my neighborhood....hmmmmmm...already budgeted for $30K for the my 5th gen......

i need to go see about a night job... :D

They more or less already did ;)

http://www.camaroz28.com/articles/2002zl1/index.shtml

http://www.gmmginc.net/html/zl1_camaro.html

They more or less already did ;)

http://www.camaroz28.com/articles/2002zl1/index.shtml

http://www.gmmginc.net/html/zl1_camaro.html

definetley something i would not mind carried over from the 4th gen...

:lol: i'd wait til i figured out how to afford it before running through my neighborhood....hmmmmmm...already budgeted for $30K for the my 5th gen......

i need to go see about a night job... :D

Try a weekend job, night jobs are no fun. This is coming from a third-shift guy.

Just a nice pleasing driving experience, broad torque curve, good sound. Similar to the late 3rd gens with the L03 (no flames please).


How can you flame over the best selling Camaro trim of all time?!?!

Ahhh, The L03 Thirdgen. Perfect example of looks, feel, and performance (for it's time). It had about 30% less horsepower then the top dog model (L98) and sold circles around it...

It doesn't have to be a 11s car out of the box to sell well, and GM needs this new 5thgen to sell! :D

I think you might be reading just a bit too far into what I said. All I am saying is, f-body sales were lost due to too much horsepower. That's it.

I then added that I think perhaps a broader choice of power levels would help reduce that in the future.

But what do I know?

JasonD wrote tonight that his fiance now appreciates third gens, and no longer likes Jettas. Sounds like his opinion had a large degree of influence over her. Case in point.

I do not know where you are getting this from. I do not have a fiance, I am married and I have been for over 5 years. My wife drives a Chevrolet, has always liked 3rd gens and doesn't have any interest in VW.

heh

I think you might be reading just a bit too far into what I said. All I am saying is, f-body sales were lost due to too much horsepower. That's it.

I then added that I think perhaps a broader choice of power levels would help reduce that in the future.

But what do I know?



I do not know where you are getting this from. I do not have a fiance, I am married and I have been for over 5 years. My wife drives a Chevrolet, has always liked 3rd gens and doesn't have any interest in VW.


Sorry, I didn't mean you, I meant Jason E. One letter off there. I do agree with you though, a broader choice of power levels would be great. I just want to see: v6,*edit* base v8 for sales (one that still makes plenty of power though), and then the top dog v8.

I am still not satisfied with the statement f-bodies sales were lost because of too much hp though. It may have some validity to it, but I could also say fbody sales were lost because they didn't offer yellow as a color option. I am sure that probably cost a few sales, but is it worth bringing up as one of significant failures of the car (although more color options never hurt anyone.)

Sorry, I didn't mean you, I meant Jason E. One letter off there.

Oh, okay...that would explain everything! :)

I do agree with you though, a broader choice of power levels would be great. I just want to see: v6, weak base v8 for sales, and then the top dog v8.

I wonder if it won't be like how the Z06 didn't come out the first year of the C5. It took a year or two before that came out. Just speculating.

Oh, okay...that would explain everything! :)



I wonder if it won't be like how the Z06 didn't come out the first year of the C5. It took a year or two before that came out. Just speculating.

Heh, I made another typo it seems. I meant to say I don't want to see too weak of a base v8. Boy, I am making myself look like an idiot here. If the base v8 comes out with 355hp (or more), I would consider it a moot point. If they must have a weaker v8, make a low output version of the 303hp 5.3 in the Impala like the old TBIs, and a high output 355 version like the TPI version. Or just give us a detuned 6.0 as the HO version.

i'm stickin to my idea of multiple engines. if the car covers all bases, GM will pick up the sales where they weren't getting them with the 4th gen and probably get more people in that wouldn't have considered the car.

i'm stickin to my idea of multiple engines. if the car covers all bases, GM will pick up the sales where they weren't getting them with the 4th gen and probably get more people in that wouldn't have considered the car.

I think your multiple engine idea is good. We seem to have a good idea of where GM is going now with the top dog's engine, as z284ever gave us a pretty good hint in the other 6.2L thread. I am still very interested in knowing what GM is thinking about for base v8s though. In 2 or 3 years, I could very possibly afford the top dog Camaro, but in the unfortunate situation that I can't, I want a mean base v8 car (assuming the car turns out well, and isn't a huge porker.)

i think a copo 572 camaro would be cool. (drools)

imo the middle of the line v8 should be marketed as a 327 (not that im biased or any thing) ;)

many engine choices would sell way more cars, even if some of them are not faster than most mustangs

i think a copo 572 camaro would be cool. (drools)



Might want to ask John Moss what his 572 4th gen Camaro is like. I am sure he gets a kick out of it.

honestly the clostest ill probably ever be to owning a 572 camaro would be looking at pictures :cry: :(

Might want to ask John Moss what his 572 4th gen Camaro is like. I am sure he gets a kick out of it.

i still remember when that car was first built...it couldn't break 12s in the quarter because there was NOOOO traction to speak of.....i think it was Motor Trend that did the toy box article that said something along the lines of if the car went on sale to the general public, John Moss would personally have to give lessons on how to drive the thing!

and there were people afraid of the 4th gens power?!?!

wow! thats pretty crazy.
sounds like fun :D
what kind of tires?
do you know what he's running now!

wow! thats pretty crazy.
sounds like fun :D
what kind of tires?
do you know what he's running now!

Last I heard it was in the 9s.

9s come on a little faster just a little. Thats sweet anyone have pics?

How can you flame over the best selling Camaro trim of all time?!?!

Ahhh, The L03 Thirdgen. Perfect example of looks, feel, and performance (for it's time). It had about 30% less horsepower then the top dog model (L98) and sold circles around it...

It doesn't have to be a 11s car out of the box to sell well, and GM needs this new 5thgen to sell! :D

You should be beaten just for mentioning "performance" and "LO3" in the same breath. TBI and those swirl port heads were total garbage for any kind of performance effort.

True it was no "screamer". But for 90% of the population (at that time) it was "enough" performance.

True it was no "screamer". But for 90% of the population (at that time) it was "enough" performance.

Where's the barf smiley when you need it?

True it was no "screamer". But for 90% of the population (at that time) it was "enough" performance.

LOL, yes, that is true...but the 140 hp 2.8L was "enough" by that definition too.

I'd take an LG4 over an L03 just because there's more potential.

My money is on the "LS3" version of the L92 for the top dog Camaro motor at this point.

Ok so for the fifth gen we will resurrect the Quad 4 for the base motor and the L03 for the midlevel V8 ;)