CAW Workers Vote to Authorize Strike...

If contract negotiations aren't reached by September 20th.


GM, Ford, Chrysler's Canadian Workers Vote to Authorize Strike

Aug. 29 (Bloomberg) -- General Motors Corp., Ford Motor Co. and DaimlerChrysler AG employees represented by the Canadian Auto Workers voted to allow a strike in the event a contract isn't reached by Sept. 20 in talks that may set the tone for U.S. negotiations in 2007.

The vote was 97.1 percent at General Motors in favor of authorizing union officials to call a strike, 95.5 percent at Ford and 97.9 percent at DaimlerChrysler AG's Chrysler unit, the Toronto-based CAW said in a statement yesterday. The CAW represents about 41,800 employees at the three companies.

This year's Canadian talks, which began last month, may be a barometer for contracts to be negotiated by the three U.S. automakers with workers in two years. Detroit-based General Motors, Ford and Chrysler want to hold down cost increases in their Canadian operations and General Motors is trying to cut spending in the U.S., particularly in health care.

``It is absolute common sense if the Canadian labor leaders to get a common position with their U.S. counterparts first and vice versa before they negotiate with the companies because if not, the companies will try to play off one side against another between the countries,'' said Peter Schmidt, managing director at Automotive Industry Data, a consulting company in Warwick, England.

General Motors is seeking health-care concessions from U.S. workers represented by the United Auto Workers. That effort faces delays after UAW President Ron Gettelfinger said Aug. 26 the union hasn't finished a study of the company's finances.

UAW Questions Cuts

Gettelfinger said last month that GM had failed to convince the union that its challenges are steep enough to warrant health- care givebacks. GM contends that health expenses for employees, retirees and dependents make the company uncompetitive against Toyota Motor Corp. and other carmakers by adding more than $1,500 to the cost of each U.S. vehicle sold.

The Canadian Auto Workers next week will select a strike target among GM, Ford and Chrysler. The CAW will concentrate on reaching an agreement with that company as a blueprint for the other two.

The strike vote ``really is support for the bargaining committees to continue,'' CAW spokesman Jim Pare said in an interview yesterday. ``These meetings also give us a chance to update the membership'' on negotiations.

Strike Target

In previous talks in Canada, automakers have sought to be designated as the target company, saying it gave them the best chance to shape a new contract. CAW President Buzz Hargrove said last month at a union convention in Toronto that none of the companies is seeking to be the target.

The strike ballot shows ``that our members understand the importance of backing their bargaining committees as we head into what will be a tough round of bargaining with General Motors, Ford and DaimlerChrysler,'' Hargrove said in yesterday's statement.

The German shares of General Motors were down 1.2 percent at $33.73 as of 10:39 a.m. in Frankfurt. Ford's German stock fell 0.4 percent at $9.73. Shares of Stuttgart, Germany-based DaimlerChrysler were down 7 euro cents, or 0.2 percent, at 41.87 after falling as much as 1.7 percent to 41.25 euros.


http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000082&sid=audnOIs_XeBc&refer=canada

I'm not really an "anti-union" person, but at some point, a union needs to understand that for the good of ALL, sometimes, you have to expect a little less in your corner when things are down.

I am almost hoping that the NHL's owner lockout sets a presidence for some of these kinds of things, even outside of the sports world...

The NHL will be SO MUCH better off for all now... it was worth the sacrifice of last season.

I just hope the UAW and CAW themselves don't spell the end of the Domestic Manufactuers. You'd think they're in enough hot water the way it is; so let's strike and increase the possibility that they will lose their jobs. Makes no sense to me.

If a company is making MILLIONS+ and paying the workers "Slave Wages" then a Strike is justified. If a Company is losing BILLIONS+ and the workers are making above the Median US pay - spells "DISASTER".

But tell them that. I may be forced into buying a Toyota in the future.

On that note - If say GM filed bankrupcty what power would that give them over the Unions??? Complete?

I'm wondering if a CAW strike could somehow delay an announcement of some kind from GM regarding the Camaro.

I'm wondering if a CAW strike could somehow delay an announcement of some kind from GM regarding the Camaro.
I would bet it would delay a LOT of stuff. It would be like someone knocking the wind out of the whole company. Seriously if the Unions don't give a little we may be looking at a SERIOUS economic disaster, loss of a LOT of US jobs.

Imagine if you are in the UAW or CAW. Would you be willing to take a pay cut when the company told you that it could afford to pay you $XX,XXX in wages and benifits? Hell no. I hate it when managment blames the unions for all their problems. It has been boneheaded moves by mangament at the big 3 for the past 30 years that have gotten them to this current point. The union has nothing to do with GM's problems. It was managment's fault for ever signing that stupid(from the company's point of view) contract they currently have with the union. You want to know who gave the union the rope to hang GM? Management.

Imagine if you are in the UAW or CAW. Would you be willing to take a pay cut when the company told you that it could afford to pay you $XX,XXX in wages and benifits? Hell no. I hate it when managment blames the unions for all their problems. It has been boneheaded moves by mangament at the big 3 for the past 30 years that have gotten them to this current point. The union has nothing to do with GM's problems. It was managment's fault for ever signing that stupid(from the company's point of view) contract they currently have with the union. You want to know who gave the union the rope to hang GM? Management.


I agree with this as well... GM signed the contracts (as did Ford and DCX)... but the point is, they played out the contracts, and now is a chance to re-do them in a setup that better fits the companies position and the economy of today.

Northwest proved that there are ways to stay running if a union wants to take you down............................

No diffrence between this and the union that told Northwest that "They would rather the company go bankrupt then give any concessions."

I hate it when unions are so self absorbed that they'd rather send a company down in a flame of bankruptcy than renegotiate their contract. It really helps out your union members when you put them out of work because the company they worked for no longer exists.

I hate it when unions are so self absorbed that they'd rather send a company down in a flame of bankruptcy than renegotiate their contract. It really helps out your union members when you put them out of work because the company they worked for no longer exists.

Ah, the ironic circle....

"Gimme, gimme, gimme..." until everything is gone... then complain that there are no jobs.

Imagine if you are in the UAW or CAW. Would you be willing to take a pay cut when the company told you that it could afford to pay you $XX,XXX in wages and benifits? Hell no. I hate it when managment blames the unions for all their problems. It has been boneheaded moves by mangament at the big 3 for the past 30 years that have gotten them to this current point. The union has nothing to do with GM's problems. It was managment's fault for ever signing that stupid(from the company's point of view) contract they currently have with the union. You want to know who gave the union the rope to hang GM? Management.
That doesnt mean anything. That was then, this is now. Things have changed, and now GM isn't in the possition they were when they signed the PREVIOUS contract. This contract needs to be something that GM can live with for the next few years, not something that drags them down further than the last contract did. You said it yourself, it was managments fault for signing the contract last time, so why does the new contract have to be as bad as the last one? Thats why contracts are for a certain period of time. When it's time to come up with a new one, thats what you do, you come up with a new one. For the unions to say that they aren't willing to take anything less than what they had before is not whats best for the company that has provided for them. Thats the problem with unions. They don't care about the company that supports them, they just want the most they can get out of the company, regardless of what that means to the company.

strike = bankrupsy, UAW doesnt want that...

a resturcturing bankrupsy would probably be the best thing for GM right now... although, if a new customer was looking to buy a car and they saw the company was doing a bankrupsy, would they feel like the car was made with quality?

what perception would that leave the customer with?

strike = bankrupsy, UAW doesnt want that...

a resturcturing bankrupsy would probably be the best thing for GM right now... although, if a new customer was looking to buy a car and they saw the company was doing a bankrupsy, would they feel like the car was made with quality?

what perception would that leave the customer with?

Things dont need to go that far if the unions act as employees and not contractors. It bugs the hell out of me that they claim they are GM employees but they have no loyalty.

Things dont need to go that far if the unions act as employees and not contractors. It bugs the hell out of me that they claim they are GM employees but they have no loyalty.

Chapter 11 is typically used for business bankruptcies and restructuring. It is not commonly used by individual consumers since it is far more complex and expensive to pursue. It allows businesses to reorganize themselves, giving them an opportunity to restructure debt and get out from under certain burdensome leases and contracts. Typically a business is allowed to continue to operate while it is in Chapter 11, although it does so under the supervision of the Bankruptcy Court and its appointees.

as far as I know this doesnt really effect much of the financials of the company... hell the rating is already junk, so thats not gonna go in the toliot

Imagine if you are in the UAW or CAW. Would you be willing to take a pay cut when the company told you that it could afford to pay you $XX,XXX in wages and benifits? Hell no. I hate it when managment blames the unions for all their problems. It has been boneheaded moves by mangament at the big 3 for the past 30 years that have gotten them to this current point. The union has nothing to do with GM's problems. It was managment's fault for ever signing that stupid(from the company's point of view) contract they currently have with the union. You want to know who gave the union the rope to hang GM? Management.
So its all the fault of GM, Ford, and Chrysler management? The union is perfect, out only for the good of all of us, and should share no blame/responsibility for anything related to the current situation?

Right. You convinced me.

I hate it when unions are so self absorbed that they'd rather send a company down in a flame of bankruptcy than renegotiate their contract. It really helps out your union members when you put them out of work because the company they worked for no longer exists.
Somehow this seems to elude them, and they are not able to see the bigger picture here! :( Maybe they are blinded by all the $$$$$$$$$$$$$$! I wonder what their union dues are? :eek:

This seems to be just typical negotiation tactics. Nobody goes into a negotiation saying that they will concede anything. You each go in at opposite ends of the spectrum and haggle towards the middle.

Are any of you people that are complaining about the union actually in a union? If you were you would understand why they feel the need to strike if need be. Hopefully it doesnt come to that and they can find a neutral ground to work on. Unions exist so the workers have a voice in what goes on in the workplace and with their pay and benefits. Workers put alot into the company and expect to be treated and paid fairly, there is nothing wrong with the union complaining about wages and benefits. You would be upset as well if the company you work for says, "ok you guys are going to get paid less and your benefits are going south" So what Im saying is try to understand where the workers are coming from. It is about being able to take care of their family and there is nothing wrong with that.

I think it would be wise to try and understand where BOTH sides are coming from - not just management, and not just the unions.

So what Im saying is try to understand where the workers are coming from. It is about being able to take care of their family and there is nothing wrong with that.

Not trying to start a war here, but auto workers make plenty enough to "take care of their families." What is the average salary to turn a wrench on the line, $60,000 these days? Not to mention the free, outstanding health care they get for themselves and their families...coverage most people could only dream of...forgive me if I don't feel too bad for the auto workers.

Z28wilson, So what if they make $$$$$$$ they worked to get there. Just because maybe you dont make that much doesnt mean they shouldnt. They might of got into it because of the money. Whats wrong with that??? Isnt everyone trying to get a job that pays well?? You put in hard work and you should get paid for it. I dont know about you but I go with the jobs that pay more money. It is America and everyone has the opportunity to do that type of work.

Before we start union bashing remember, blame flows both ways.

Do you really want to lay the blame of mismanagement, years of quality comes 2nd, years of shortsighted emphasis on trucks & SUVs, a product development process that takes nearly 4 years to develop a product at "blistering speed"?

I agree, the auto labor unions (ESPECIALLY the government health care covered CAW) have no real issues to strike on...... NONE!!!

On the flip side, I do have a little simpathy for the UAW here in the US. They are being pressured to give up benefits for reasons outside of their control. And not every CEO is like Bill Ford who is giving up their own salary till profits return.

I was warned the CAW would try something. So far this is just preliminary stuff: the rank and file giving permission to strike in case no agreement is met.

This doesn't mean there will be a strike, and there hasn't been any indications that one is inevitable.

BTW, FWIW, any announcemets on any future cars won't be affected... unless the union is still on strike this winter. ;)

I was warned the CAW would try something. So far this is just preliminary stuff: the rank and file giving permission to strike in case no agreement is met.

This doesn't mean there will be a strike, and there hasn't been any indications that one is inevitable.
Bingo! We went through a similar scenario in the Bay Area just this past July when BART union workers' contract expired. Rank and file gave permission to strike, but never did. In fact they worked with management for more than 48 hours after the deadline to avoid a strike.

The permission-to-strike vote is S.O.P. that is all.

I agree with Guy. Health Care costs are going up across the BOARD. This is just not a GM problem. BUT - Only GM and Ford and probably Chysler to an extent have the UAW which will not give an inch on these and Insist that GM pick up the increasing costs. So on top of a x% raise each year, they actually get a double raise for covering the 5-10% health care goes up each year.

You know what the ironic thing is. There are xxxthousands of UAW workers in the United States who really have NO CLUE how bad the health care crisis really is. I would rather see the UAW use it's power and lobby the Government for some changes which is really where this problems lies - then to mask it by forcing the Company to cover these changes. At the rate it's going something has to be done. If the health care costs weren't so astrinomically RIDICULOUS in the 1st place this wouldn't be a problem. I Blame Reagan, Bush Sr, Clinton, and Bush Jr for not working on this when trends starting showing major increases. The UAW just thinks this is an Auto Industry problem or something I guess???

Peaple here Bxtch here so much about rising gas prices when Health Care costs are far more extreme and hurting the economy then "Energy."

I agree with Guy. Health Care costs are going up across the BOARD. This is just not a GM problem. BUT - Only GM and Ford and probably Chysler to an extent have the UAW which will not give an inch on these and Insist that GM pick up the increasing costs. So on top of a x% raise each year, they actually get a double raise for covering the 5-10% health care goes up each year.

You know what the ironic thing is. There are xxxthousands of UAW workers in the United States who really have NO CLUE how bad the health care crisis really is. I would rather see the UAW use it's power and lobby the Government for some changes which is really where this problems lies - then to mask it by forcing the Company to cover these changes. At the rate it's going something has to be done. If the health care costs weren't so astrinomically RIDICULOUS in the 1st place this wouldn't be a problem. I Blame Reagan, Bush Sr, Clinton, and Bush Jr for not working on this when trends starting showing major increases. The UAW just thinks this is an Auto Industry problem or something I guess???

Peaple here Bxtch here so much about rising gas prices when Health Care costs are far more extreme and hurting the economy then "Energy."
:thumb: I agree, but would like to add, that AFAIK, Bush has been trying to get reform going in this area, but can't seem to get much backing on it, from his opposition! It is a big problem, and ppl just expect GM to eat all the costs! They make the Hummer right, so they must be at fault! :rolleyes:

True, we (small company) switched to the new Health Savings Accounts/High Deduct plans and that cut my Health care costs from $700/mo to $350/mo which includes a $100 bucks put into the Health Savings Account. These are great!

But there is still more to be done, although I do accept the fact he is trying and did more then Clinton did... === Nothing.

I wonder if the negotiations will go something like this:

UAW/CAW: Give us what we want or we'll strike.
GM/Ford/DC: Strike and we'll declare bankruptcy and you'll lose your pensions.

And not every CEO is like Bill Ford who is giving up their own salary till profits return.


I agree with everything you said except this, cmon now. There is a pretty obvious reason Mr. Ford doesn't need a salary, and why he is a bit more concerned about Ford making money again. They are the same reason, so stop putting him up on a pedestal.

Other than that, good points.

Yeah, no kidding. That was a PR move more then anything. But I do believe it was a /good/ one. But they need more then Mustang/Truck sales to turn a profit. I had a choice between a Ford Taurus SE or a Grand Prix (base). I had to think about that one like two seconds.

The base 6 cylinder I think makes barely 150hp = SLOW AS HELL. Not to mention ugly exterior and sub-par Interior. The 05' Grand Prix was MILES ahead of the T. Ford really should have put the work into this car instead of the Mustang. But maybe they have a new one planned - dunno don't follow the Ford boards. We did take a look at the 500, and decided no. Interior not too bad, but ugly as sin exterior.

Keep in mind too that not all unions take this same stance. At my company, several of the major unions were asked to take concessions to avert a certain bankrupcy filing. It was a situation where you were going to lose either way, but by playing ball, you had some measure of control over the plan. One of our competitors went the other route, and has been in bankruptcy nearly 3 years, and just lost a couple of hundred million dollars in the 2nd quarter AFTER slashing all the unions pay, benefits, and jobs. As was said above, the membership authorizing a strike is nothing more than posturing. It is a common and expected tactic among unions prior to or during negotiations. I would stop short of saying its nothing to worry about, but at the same time, it's not suprising to folks who work in this kind of environment.

I agree with everything you said except this, cmon now. There is a pretty obvious reason Mr. Ford doesn't need a salary, and why he is a bit more concerned about Ford making money again. They are the same reason, so stop putting him up on a pedestal.

Other than that, good points.

Of course it was a PR move! That's the entire point.

When Lee Iaaccoa 1st went to Chrysler, he worked for $1 per year. Of course, he instead had stock options that he couldn't cash in for a year or 2 (and made serious bank when he did), & had a pretty healthy expense account, but it was still enough to get Chrysler's unions to agree to some amazing concessions to save the company.

That's what GM needs to blunt things. Don't underestimate the power of symbolism. We're dumb Americans. We don't read between the lines, or dig deep. That's TV's job. ;)

Our CEO did that too. Then on the day of the concessions vote, authorized 17 million dollars in bonuses to top management. Smart man :rolleyes: .

Of course it was a PR move! That's the entire point.

When Lee Iaaccoa 1st went to Chrysler, he worked for $1 per year. Of course, he instead had stock options that he couldn't cash in for a year or 2 (and made serious bank when he did), & had a pretty healthy expense account, but it was still enough to get Chrysler's unions to agree to some amazing concessions to save the company.

That's what GM needs to blunt things. Don't underestimate the power of symbolism. We're dumb Americans. We don't read between the lines, or dig deep. That's TV's job. ;)


Ah ok, then I misunderstood you. Of course if GM goes under, Lutz just goes on and retires, or gets a new job like everyone else. FoMoCo goes under, and Mr. Ford's future plans change substantially.

I'm in college, I know exactly how dumb "we" all are. It's frightening in fact.

Several months ago G.M. said that if the unions did not concede the things that they wanted (healthcare) and if they tried to strike they would take drastic measures and go with "other avenues". I don't expect G.M. to take this lying down.

Several months ago G.M. said that if the unions did not concede the things that they wanted (healthcare) and if they tried to strike they would take drastic measures and go with "other avenues". I don't expect G.M. to take this lying down.

no certainly not, GM is awake, i'm not sure where it happened but someone DID wake the sleeping giant. and I think its been slowly getting onto its feet for a while now, and has known things arent okay for the last 10-15 years or so, just nothing has really been done about it.

Can Unions compete for eachother? Could another union try to get the contract instead of UAW? someone like teamsters or whatever?

And what about the health care thing... couldnt the companys compete for GM's signature? I mean GM is the largest single purchaser of health insurance. shouldnt the major insurers work hard to get the best price for the General?

And if the General filled Chapter 11, how much of a feild day would the news casters have with that? Would it be worth the breakoff of the union?

Are any of you people that are complaining about the union actually in a union? If you were you would understand why they feel the need to strike if need be. Hopefully it doesnt come to that and they can find a neutral ground to work on. Unions exist so the workers have a voice in what goes on in the workplace and with their pay and benefits. Workers put alot into the company and expect to be treated and paid fairly, there is nothing wrong with the union complaining about wages and benefits. You would be upset as well if the company you work for says, "ok you guys are going to get paid less and your benefits are going south" So what Im saying is try to understand where the workers are coming from. It is about being able to take care of their family and there is nothing wrong with that.

While I am not in a Union my mother is a steel worker, actually she helped out a friend when the Union 'striked' with no contract, he job was to help find replacement workers (which she did a great job on). Then when the union begged to come back she kept her job and kept her seniority. I understand Unions just as much as the next guy (grandad was a UAW worker for a while), but that doesn't mean I agree with them. BTW Toyota plant about 80 miles from me isn't union and it doesn't have any problem producing cars.

Z28wilson, So what if they make $$$$$$$ they worked to get there. Just because maybe you dont make that much doesnt mean they shouldnt. They might of got into it because of the money. Whats wrong with that??? Isnt everyone trying to get a job that pays well?? You put in hard work and you should get paid for it. I dont know about you but I go with the jobs that pay more money. It is America and everyone has the opportunity to do that type of work.

They worked to get there? So why is quality not top notch? It's one thing if they were turning out outstanding product that was selling like hotcakes. The reality is that they are not and need to expect to be compensated as such.

Ah ok, then I misunderstood you. Of course if GM goes under, Lutz just goes on and retires, or gets a new job like everyone else. FoMoCo goes under, and Mr. Ford's future plans change substantially.

I'm in college, I know exactly how dumb "we" all are. It's frightening in fact.
I agree, Bill does have a need to make sure the company does well. I also believe alot of these companies, have the problem of too many chiefs, and not enough indians. That's a whole nother can of worms. It's your statement about us ALL being dumb, that strikes me! Normally I might agree with that. Recognizing that fact is the first step. I think this is another of those things the press has filled our heads with, me included. So I would put it another way. The elites in the press, as well as some college professors like to suck up to the Euro's, what better way than to call us(Americans) dumb! I would say Americans are more smart than dumb. No one can know everything! Everyone has a certain area of expertise. I also share the view that it's a bit of posturing, but still not a good sign. I think Guy's own post proves, that they have some of us believing we're dumb. I don't agree, and kinda resent it, being a proud American that I am. :usa: Actually, I think we're just humans with emotions, missing a certain car, so sometimes WE (myself included), jump to conclusions! We Americans have made some great strides for human kind, and will continue to, so it's very easy for ppl around the world to resent that, and in turn write us off as dumb. I strongly disagree, and think that dumb is a relative term! I also agree with quite a few of the last posts made. falchuck= Pay ppl what they are worth! And yeah what a field day the press would have if GM filed you know what(I can't even think it), it would be the culmination of years of "hard" reporting come to fruition. I'll stop now, as you all know my feelings on the press.

While I am not in a Union my mother is a steel worker, actually she helped out a friend when the Union 'striked' with no contract, he job was to help find replacement workers (which she did a great job on). Then when the union begged to come back she kept her job and kept her seniority. I understand Unions just as much as the next guy (grandad was a UAW worker for a while), but that doesn't mean I agree with them. BTW Toyota plant about 80 miles from me isn't union and it doesn't have any problem producing cars.

How do the benefits and heathcare of those folks that work at Toyota compare to GM benefits and healthcare?

How do the benefits and heathcare of those folks that work at Toyota compare to GM benefits and healthcare?
At the chiropractic office I work we have Ford UAW workers as patients and they have KPPA or HMO plans which mean at the most a $10 specialist copay (usually $35 copay from same insuance carrier) some have NO copay. I haven't dealth with any Toyota workers, like I said it is quite a ways away from Louisville.

I wonder how the unions feel about announcements like these:

Ford to fire 400 white collar workers as part of cost cutting plan. (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050830/ap_on_bi_ge/ford_job_cuts)

How do the benefits and heathcare of those folks that work at Toyota compare to GM benefits and healthcare?

Enough to keep them happy and probably more on par with what a "Factory Worker" is actually worth. I would say it's not too far off of the norm for a UAW worker in pay though.

The problem is this though. At Toyota they have something called "Job Performance Reviews." Which means if you f--- up, you get demoted or fired.

At the UAW if you f--- up, you get a raise. The protection of the UAW employees is more of a cripple in my opinion then the actual pay.

Enough to keep them happy and probably more on par with what a "Factory Worker" is actually worth. I would say it's not too far off of the norm for a UAW worker in pay though.

The problem is this though. At Toyota they have something called "Job Performance Reviews." Which means if you f--- up, you get demoted or fired.

At the UAW if you f--- up, you get a raise. The protection of the UAW employees is more of a cripple in my opinion then the actual pay.

how would someone change either side?

to cripple toyota or to help GM?

The UAW had protected poor performing workers their entire existance! A about 10 years ago there was a story in a national newspaper about a Janitor that worked at Ford (I think). He was in his late 50's and spent a large part of his day sitting in a closet watching TV and listening to a Radio. He had been written up many times and eventually fired. The union forced them to bring him back. They had to offer him early retirement to get rid of him. At the time he was making $19 an hour. While thats not that much, it's a lot for a Janitor.

Everyone else in this country has to perform or lose their job, the UAW agreements are always one sided as they dont guarantee any level of quality or quantity of production. If they are going to behave as contrators they should be saddled with the same quota's as contractors.

Everyone else in this country has to perform or lose their job, the UAW agreements are always one sided as they dont guarantee any level of quality or quantity of production. If they are going to behave as contrators they should be saddled with the same quota's as contractors.


Definatly agreed... can you be our spokesperson?

Everyone else in this country has to perform or lose their job, the UAW agreements are always one sided as they dont guarantee any level of quality or quantity of production.

Then perhaps GM should stop signing off on these agreements

Z28wilson, So what if they make $$$$$$$ they worked to get there. Just because maybe you dont make that much doesnt mean they shouldnt.

When the workers are paid 2x as much as their job is really worth, it's a problem. UAW workers are tremendously overpaid and have extremely generous benefits to boot. I have NO sympathy for them whatsoever. If they do go on strike, I hope they get replaced and then have to go see what their skills are really worth in the real world.

I agree, Bill does have a need to make sure the company does well. I also believe alot of these companies, have the problem of too many chiefs, and not enough indians. That's a whole nother can of worms. It's your statement about us ALL being dumb, that strikes me! Normally I might agree with that. Recognizing that fact is the first step. I think this is another of those things the press has filled our heads with, me included. So I would put it another way. The elites in the press, as well as some college professors like to suck up to the Euro's, what better way than to call us(Americans) dumb! I would say Americans are more smart than dumb. No one can know everything! Everyone has a certain area of expertise. I also share the view that it's a bit of posturing, but still not a good sign. I think Guy's own post proves, that they have some of us believing we're dumb. I don't agree, and kinda resent it, being a proud American that I am. :usa: Actually, I think we're just humans with emotions, missing a certain car, so sometimes WE (myself included), jump to conclusions! We Americans have made some great strides for human kind, and will continue to, so it's very easy for ppl around the world to resent that, and in turn write us off as dumb. I strongly disagree, and think that dumb is a relative term! I also agree with quite a few of the last posts made. falchuck= Pay ppl what they are worth! And yeah what a field day the press would have if GM filed you know what(I can't even think it), it would be the culmination of years of "hard" reporting come to fruition. I'll stop now, as you all know my feelings on the press.

Boy, you took the last line of my post a bit seriously, didn't you? :shock:

That's the thing with typing versus personal contact; you can't tell when a person is making a pointed joke. :)

GM is not anywhere near being bankrupt so them declaring that isnt going to happen right now.


its been proven in the past when UAW workers have walked it cost GM more money and marketshare them having them working.

despite many posts labeling the UAW as impossible to deal with that isnt true.


theyve allowed membership to decline through buyouts/early retirements/layoffs without giving GM a problem about replacing workers which is in their agreement.

the UAW/CAW isnt as stupid as some of you think and know more about whats going on that most of us.


something will be worked out but dont be so quick to blame one side.



both sides need each other.dont kid yourself about that.

So much misinformation about the UAW workers, jobs, benefits and working conditions...some real research needs to be done before such firm stands on these subjects are made. :shame:
Stereotypes are a Bxtch!...

Since I'm an autoworker in the UAW, I can offer as good as view as any here.

As long as I have worked in this field, if you screw up, you get warned, if you continue to screw up, you get written up....then disqualified from your job. Probably ending up with a worse job. AND, if you keep screwing up, and getting disqualified, you WILL BE LET GO!(fired..)Now if you get SICK, or DISABLED, and can't perform your job for an extended period of time, you become LABELED: INDUSTRIALLY UNEMPLOYABLE! Even if it only last for several months, you may find it HARD to find employment in your field.

I went for nearly 9 (NINE years!) without a raise in pay rate, lump sums were accepted to save the company some money.(especially on Overtime)

Healthcare benefits have been steadily DECREASING, my Co-Pay has went from $20...to $45....to $55...for PCP, ER, SCP, all. Perscription plan following suit. I feel was an effort on the Company/Insurer to DISCOURAGE the number office visits and casual trips to the ER after hours.

If you feel we're over-paid, I'd invite any of you to run a LINE-JOB for ONE WEEK, I am sure you will change your mind. Many people on mass hirings, walked out, quit, some even broke down from the pressure and didn't return for the SECOND DAY!
Make NO mistake, there IS skill involved, many handy, educated, skilled people have MUCH difficulty in a high speed Assembly Line environment. The skills I have learned there can only be a big benefit in what ever field I move on to, especially efficiency skills, eliminating wasted steps or movements etc...(other call this KAIZEN, or contiuous improvement)

Is there waste in the UAW, ofcourse, but NOT as much as just 5 years ago, and NOT MORE than is in ANY other field, period.(in the past Yes..)There has been MUCH reform in the Auto Industry, most of it for the good of all, truthfully.
That said, we have allowed Attrition, of "Good" jobs, jobs that are mostly sub-assembly, easier, usually filled by Older, high seniority workers...now completed by people making 1/3 of our pay..
Have agreed to 2 tier wage system taking years to reach top salary...ALL SAVING THE COMPANY MONEY!
Retirees prefering insurance benefit increases over wage cost of living increases..

But I believe w-a-a-y-y too much emphasis has and is being put on the workers as the "Root of All Evil" in Manufacturing....I just ain't seeing it.
Mismanagement IS going on at ALL levels, from simple daily tasks to the Billion dollar FLOPS...and yes UAW management as well.
One example, I was recently sent to a repair area, on overtime to fix vehicles(part shortages etc..) It took nearly 45 minutes to decide where to put us(my team) then had everyone doing every task, instead of assigning task in an assembly type manner. By the end of the 2 HOURS, we probably actually worked 1 hour... :shame: Not by our fault. Everything should have been mapped out in advance...

The real problem, as said before by too many, is Healthcare Costs....
Until there is some REAL reform in the relationship of Inusrance and Healthcare, this IS going to keep being a HOT, passionate issue..

Sorry for asking the obvious question but :confused: ... are the benefits the same for GM employees as they are for the Asian owned manufacturers (Toyota, Nissan, Honda, Hyundai etc...) because if the benefits are in fact higher, GM are at a disadvantage wrt to the competition.

My cousin's husband works for Honda of America, East Liberty Ohio...he says his benefits are MUCH better...than mine, but I don't work @ GM.???

My cousin's husband works for Honda of America, East Liberty Ohio...he says his benefits are MUCH better...than mine, but I don't work @ GM.???

The obvious question begs.. if that is the case, why belong to a union? :eek:

Sorry for asking the obvious question but :confused: ... are the benefits the same for GM employees as they are for the Asian owned manufacturers (Toyota, Nissan, Honda, Hyundai etc...) because if the benefits are in fact higher, GM are at a disadvantage wrt to the competition.

GM has more old people to give health care to then other brands, because like one guy said hes been working for one plant for a while and they havent hired anyone since 1986 I think... old people are expensive to insure...

Right. How many retiree's does Toyota and Honda have in America compared to GM?

The obvious question begs.. if that is the case, why belong to a union? :eek:

You're saying you could get better pay and benefits without a union? Then why doesn't corporate America try to get ALL their employees to unionize?

You're saying you could get better pay and benefits without a union? Then why doesn't corporate America try to get ALL their employees to unionize?

Walmart needs to be unionized...

Well unions have there pluses and minuses... its more of a democratic way to run your buisness... raises based on hours of employement rather then productivity... blablabla...

jfischer:When the workers are paid 2x as much as their job is really worth, it's a problem. UAW workers are tremendously overpaid and have extremely generous benefits to boot. I have NO sympathy for them whatsoever. If they do go on strike, I hope they get replaced and then have to go see what their skills are really worth in the real world.


1. Do you work at the auto plant??? Do you know how much work is involved?? Again just because they get paid and have good benefits, doesnt mean they should lose them. Replacing the workers might change the quality of the product. Do not sit there and rant about blah blah blah
"they get paid too much" "I am jealous and they should do whatever GM says"
you are not in their situation. They have familys to protect.

Yes I did! Good point Guy! :p

SSBaby: The obvious question begs.. if that is the case, why belong to a union? Believe me, many older and newer employees are starting to ask that question a lot these days.
BTW, Do you think that Honda or Toyota would be paying "comparable" wages and benefits to their employees if they weren't afraid of unionization??
They threatened to make their employees foot 100% of their healthcare if a Union was adapted @ Honda. :eek:
Unions can help you keep your job from curtailment, downsizing, etc..where otherwise you would NOT have a voice...Job Security...or the closest thing to it nowadays.
Yes, Unions ARE still a useful tool in being heard by a mega-corporation.

*On another note, if gas prices keep rising, you'll see what a real union can accomplish for the working class. The Teamsters will NOT tolerate a much larger increase in fuel prices without a Nationwide Sit-Down....rumors are already flying!...

1. Do you work at the auto plant??? Do you know how much work is involved?? Again just because they get paid and have good benefits, doesnt mean they should lose them. Replacing the workers might change the quality of the product. Do not sit there and rant about blah blah blah
"they get paid too much" "I am jealous and they should do whatever GM says"
you are not in their situation. They have familys to protect.

Everyone has families to protect. Replacing the workers would probably increase the quality of the product. Ever notice how non-union Japanese manufacturers in American plants turn out significantly better products than the unionized American manufacturers?

im seeing quite a few domestic cars here listed.

http://autos.msn.com/advice/article.aspx?contentid=4022547&src=LP+used


does the union get credit for this as well? ;)



actually a few *** cars are union made too.


http://www.howtobuyamerican.com/content/db/b-db-autos.shtml#Toyota

are these vehicles poorly made?

What significantly better products are you referring to?

What significantly better products are you referring to?

im stating GM quality is greatly improving so does the union get credit for that too as well as being criticized for hurting it?

What significantly better products are you referring to?

Cars like the Honda Accord, and Toyota Camry. I apologize for painting everyone with the same brush. It just seems that most of the folks at work that have domestic vehicles are always having problems with them, and at relatively low mileage. Transmission sensors that go out, bad rotors (you f-body guys know what I mean!), bearings going out in axles, etc. Stuff that really shouldn't be breaking at 50,000 miles. The Honda/Toyota owners seem to go 200,000 miles with little or no troubles.

Perhaps it's not so much who puts them together, as it is who designs the things.

Cars like the Honda Accord, and Toyota Camry. I apologize for painting everyone with the same brush. It just seems that most of the folks at work that have domestic vehicles are always having problems with them, and at relatively low mileage. Transmission sensors that go out, bad rotors (you f-body guys know what I mean!), bearings going out in axles, etc. Stuff that really shouldn't be breaking at 50,000 miles. The Honda/Toyota owners seem to go 200,000 miles with little or no troubles.

Perhaps it's not so much who puts them together, as it is who designs the things.


exactly.if the big three choose to use subpar parts its not the fault of the people putting them together.


im not buying they cant afford quality parts either.the fact is they cant afford NOT to make quality parts and reliable vehicles.


fact is GM has alot of well built cars as i just showed so theres no reason why all their makes cant be.

Cars like the Honda Accord, and Toyota Camry. I apologize for painting everyone with the same brush. It just seems that most of the folks at work that have domestic vehicles are always having problems with them, and at relatively low mileage. Transmission sensors that go out, bad rotors (you f-body guys know what I mean!), bearings going out in axles, etc. Stuff that really shouldn't be breaking at 50,000 miles. The Honda/Toyota owners seem to go 200,000 miles with little or no troubles.

Perhaps it's not so much who puts them together, as it is who designs the things.

what bad rotors, perhaps you are refering to the rotors on my camry that never shut up... They squeel all the way home from the brake shop...?

Honda Toyota owners? 200,000 miles? my last toyota went 115k before the engine was replaced and the tranny was replaced...

I know plenty of GM people who have 250,270,300k+ miles on there car and nothing has been done but oil changes and maybe fan belts... i know one guy has a blazer with 370k miles on his car and its all still same engine, never rebuilt... no rebuilt tranny, just a damn good product...

SSBaby: The obvious question begs.. if that is the case, why belong to a union?
Here's their answer....
Today, all of us from all sectors of our union — IPS, Skilled Trades, TOP, Agricultural Implement and Aerospace — stand on the shoulders of those brave and bold men and women who defied all odds with courage, imagination, determination and solidarity.

Over the decades, the bargaining gains won by the UAW in the areas of wages, benefits, retirement security, working conditions, health and safety, worker empowerment and family programs have set the standard for America’s workers. We have played a defining role in helping blue- and white-collar workers achieve the American dream.

But we have never been a union concerned only with another nickel in the paycheck. The democratic values and vision of the UAW for social and economic justice for all working people have also defined who we are as a union.
From fighting racial discrimination in the United States to standing against apartheid in South Africa to denouncing China’s abuse of workers’ rights, the UAW remains committed to continuing the struggle for human dignity, equality and justice for all.

As we look through these pages, we are reminded that our union was built by ordinary working people who accomplished the extraordinary because they believed deeply in the dignity of work as well as the dignity of all workers.

We can pay homage to those who came before us by paving the way for those who will come after us. As we face new and different challenges, we must do so as our brothers and sisters have done for 70 years: with courage, imagination, determination and solidarity.

~ The UAW International Executive Board


Everyone has families to protect. Replacing the workers would probably increase the quality of the product. Ever notice how non-union Japanese manufacturers in American plants turn out significantly better products than the unionized American manufacturers?Uhh-h? We don't engineer the products. We build them , with the quality of materials given us, to the BEST of our ability....We also don't make decision to ship sub-standard products.....Believe me, NOONE is more critical of our work and products than we are! :irk:
Sadly, the few dollars or pennies saved by buying "cheap" parts gives domestics a tarnished image, thank the Bean-Counters for that... :p
NOT, that are products are "significantly" worse anyways... :rolleyes:

im stating GM quality is greatly improving so does the union get credit for that too as well as being criticized for hurting it?
It wasn't for you, you beat me to the punch responding to the guy above you. I'm glad it was finally stated what the real problem is in terms of quality. The same UAW members who make the notorious POS cars are the same ones that work over at Corvette and Cadillac. It's not the quality of the build, its the quality of the parts and design.

And as far as the healthcare thing goes, it's healthcare thats broken, not GM's UAW members. I can understand there's alot of cost there, and why it's a target in GM's eyes, but it's not the UAW's fault that healthcare costs are skyrocketing.

It wasn't for you, you beat me to the punch responding to the guy above you. I'm glad it was finally stated what the real problem is in terms of quality. The same UAW members who make the notorious POS cars are the same ones that work over at Corvette and Cadillac. It's not the quality of the build, its the quality of the parts and design.

And as far as the healthcare thing goes, it's healthcare thats broken, not GM's UAW members. I can understand there's alot of cost there, and why it's a target in GM's eyes, but it's not the UAW's fault that healthcare costs are skyrocketing.





:thumb:

the UAW remains committed to continuing the struggle for human dignity, equality and justice for all.

Does that also include justice for workers working outside the union but also for that car maker?

Don't get me wrong, I admire the dedication of the workers at GM for continually producing dependable products at equal or better quality than the competition but... isn't there a time when the UAW needs to listen to the voice of the car maker and glance an eye on the balance sheet to figure out that that car maker is in urgent need of help?

This is where Japanese work ethics differ to that of the Western nations... we seem to be more content to screw ourselves. :rolleyes:

Don't get me wrong, I admire the dedication of the workers at GM for continually producing dependable products at equal or better quality than the competition but... isn't there a time when the UAW needs to listen to the voice of the car maker and glance an eye on the balance sheet to figure out that that car maker is in urgent need of help?

This is where Japanese work ethics differ to that of the Western nations... we seem to be more content to screw ourselves. The UAW has given concessions these last several years that would've put them out on long strikes before, proving they know there's Economy problems. So much so, that many "hardliners" feel the UAW is all but dead.
When you keep giving and the very next contract more is asked, you have to draw the line somewhere...when is it enough??

I just remembered something that happened 12 years ago, when I worked at a Japanese company...since most think they're so great.

We were in a "Downturn" and we were facing some layoffs, for the first time. We all met in the Caffeteria and it was decided that we would go down to a 32 hour work week, to stave off the Layoffs. Also that year we were told we would'nt be able to have raises @ review time..."times are too tough".
We worked through those several months believing all that was told us.
We found out a short time later that they JUST PURCHASED A 6.6 BILLION DOLLAR movie studio!!!!
Boy did they fool us.... :shame:

Ford really should have put the work into this car instead of the Mustang.

screw that, the mustang paid its dues with a 30 year old chassis. The 05 mustang deserved every penny that was put into it.

A nice RWD tarus with a live axle would probably sell very well :D