New Bird

Any one know of any future plans to bring the firebird back, I think they should, when the camaro comes back. With pontiacs already not-selling GTO that weighs 4000 lbs! I think a new firebird would be perfect for Pontiac. I would buy it, as long as it doesnt look like any other pontiac sedan, and its not $30,000

Who else wants to see the good ole Firebird back?

Any one know of any future plans to bring the firebird back, I think they should, when the camaro comes back.
There aren't any, and I wouldn't hold you're breath.

With pontiacs already not-selling GTO ...
Actually it's selling quite well right now.

Who else wants to see the good ole Firebird back?
Doesn't really bother me much, as long as the Camaro comes back and they keep the GTO

I'd say GM aren't blind to this, but it'd probably at least a year behind, based on how well the Z does.(MO...I know some don't agree..)

I'd say GM aren't blind to this, but it'd probably at least a year behind, based on how well the Z does.(MO...I know some don't agree..)


I wouldnt count on it. The head of Pontiac has been quoted as saying the firebirds day is past.

I agree with 90rocz, if the new Camaro is a hit, you could probably see another Firebird over at Pontiac. Lutz's new vision of what Pontiac should be isn't exactly giving Pontiac the kind of business it has been needing, and given the fact that Pontiac still seems to get a rehashed version of everything every other division gets, I don't think this is entirely out of the question.

It has been mentioned before here, but if the Camaro goes retro, which seems like a very real possibility, it would be nice to have an aggressive modern Firebird ponycar alternative.

This comes up once a week.

No bird at least in the near future from what everyone hears.

Pontiac will never get a Firebird because common sense says that the excitement division should only have one token roadster and a bunch of cars that are only halfway exciting rehashes of what are available at other divisions.

I saw some quotes recently by Mr. Lutz speaking to the issue of 3 letter names, and how the next iterations of vehicles like the GTO, HHR, and SSR would likely get names.

Hmm, the next gen GTO renamed "Trans Am?" I don't see "Firebird" happening though. Not a performance halo car sounding name. Trans Am, Grand Prix, Le Mans ... all race prestigous race terms.

Doesn't the latest rumour have the next gen GTO coming after a possible 5th Gen? That would follow history to introduce the Trans Am after Camaro, albeit a completely different car this go-around.

The way things are shaping up with the rumours on GTO production, it looks like it will have held to being a stop-gap car, Camaro bowing right after production ends on current GTO. History then possibly repeats itself with a new halo Pontiac coupe (Trans Am) coming in shortly after the Camaro.

But I doubt they call it Trans Am becuase they have to pay royalties on the name for everyone they sell.

Pontiac will never get a Firebird because common sense says that the excitement division should only have one token roadster and a bunch of cars that are only halfway exciting rehashes of what are available at other divisions.

Yeah, but the exciement division should also be composed primarily of exciting cars. Quite contrary to the situation at hand. If GM thinks there would be money in a Firebird, they will change their philosophy to fit it in there.


I saw some quotes recently by Mr. Lutz speaking to the issue of 3 letter names, and how the next iterations of vehicles like the GTO, HHR, and SSR would likely get names.

I am very relieved to here that. This alphanumeric nonsense really bothers me, regardless of the car brand doing it. Having a Pontiac with nothing but letter or numeral strings attached to it was not something I thought was a very thought out business maneuver. Regardless of where GM thinks the brand should be, where the brand is currently is what is more important.

Interesting corperate line coming from Pontiac lately. Previously, when asked about the future of GTO, the line went something like "The GTO will play an important role in Pontiac's line up for the forseeable future".

Lately, it's changed somewhat. In questions of late regarding GTO's future, words to the effect are: "Pontiac will continue to be committed to having rear drive performance as part of it's lineup in the future".

Not saying Firebird will return (personally, I think the name is dead). But unless Holden is able to get a "Monaro-like vehicle" into production as quick as the old one and GM-NA sits on it's RWD program too long, the Chevrolet "Mustang" coupe by one accounts is now likely ahead of the next "GTO" coupe on the road to production

Not betting the farm on this, but in the event Pontiac either loses the GTO after 2006, or has a shortened 2007 production year, Pontiac may end up with a small Chevy based coupe.

It seems logical in that instance that Buick and Cadillac would end up with the big coupe.

Just speculation on my part in the last 2 paragraphs.

The Firebird is dead and Im happy. It was always a notch uglier than the Camaro, especially the third gens. Ask the question "Why does Pontiac need another Firebird at this time"

The Firebird is dead and Im happy. It was always a notch uglier than the Camaro, especially the third gens. Ask the question "Why does Pontiac need another Firebird at this time"


I have to ask the question, how are you so sure that it is permenantly dead. Didn't you just read anything Guy wrote. It is all speculation, but there could be something in the pipeline if the GTO gets canned. I guess you are probably just going on your gut on this one, huh? Sorry if I am not so inclined to take that as the final word on this subject matter.

About your question "Why does Pontiac need another Firebird at this time." How about because at the moment the excitement division is pretty far from exciting, and the brand needs a halo car. The GTO isn't exactly drawing huge crowds in, and the interest it does actually get could completely go away if the car stops being built. There is more excitement at Chevy these days then Pontiac.

Yeah, but the exciement division should also be composed primarily of exciting cars. Quite contrary to the situation at hand.
That what I was getting at with my outlandish comment. A Firebird not fitting into the image of an excitement division sounds to me like if someone from Mazda said that the RX7 didn't fit into their sport division image.

Would someone like to explain why anyone should care about Pontiac if Chevy is going to slap an SS package on everything and if their only independent car design in recent history gets stolen by Saturn?

The Firebird is dead and Im happy. It was always a notch uglier than the Camaro, especially the third gens. Ask the question "Why does Pontiac need another Firebird at this time"
The Camaro is dead and I'm happy. It was always a notch uglier than the Firebird, especially the 4th Gens (where it was 10 notches uglier).

The Firebird is dead and Im happy. It was always a notch uglier than the Camaro, especially the third gens. Ask the question "Why does Pontiac need another Firebird at this time"


1998-2002 TransAm... I think proves otherwise. 3rd gens? I agree.

"Why does Pontiac need another firebird at this time?" A: They dont, but if the GTO is bowing out due to issue's with holden. Then beleive there will be a reskinned Camaro on Pontiac dealerships.

This is history repeating itself.

GM doesnt need Pontiac at all.

The Camaro is dead and I'm happy. It was always a notch uglier than the Firebird, especially the 4th Gens (where it was 10 notches uglier).

:D The Camaro was for people who couldn't afford a Firebird. No doubt about it, the WS6 beats the SS hands down for looks. I think that's why some people here don't want the Firebird to return. But it will.


Pontiac needs excitement. The GTO doesn't do it. So it's time to bring back the legendary bird.

:D The Camaro was for people who couldn't afford a Firebird. No doubt about it, the WS6 beats the SS hands down for looks. I think that's why some people here don't want the Firebird to return. But it will.


Pontiac needs excitement. The GTO doesn't do it. So it's time to bring back the legendary bird.


Ive never seen such a false statement before...

:no:

I have to ask the question, how are you so sure that it is permenantly dead. Didn't you just read anything Guy wrote. It is all speculation, but there could be something in the pipeline if the GTO gets canned. I guess you are probably just going on your gut on this one, huh? Sorry if I am not so inclined to take that as the final word on this subject matter.

Well I 80% sure it is permanantly dead because I think it came from the mouth of Lutz himself and some others. Even then I understand where you are coming from but there also were probably a 1/10th of the people who wrote into GM asking to bring the Firedbird back. The Camaro has a bigger following and its going to be hard to justify bringing the bird back into the lineup with the GTO currently there which really isnt doing to badly. I think it was from GM blog though that they said the Firebird is possibly dead.

Well I 80% sure it is permanantly dead because I think it came from the mouth of Lutz himself and some others. Even then I understand where you are coming from but there also were probably a 1/10th of the people who wrote into GM asking to bring the Firedbird back. The Camaro has a bigger following and its going to be hard to justify bringing the bird back into the lineup with the GTO currently there which really isnt doing to badly. I think it was from GM blog though that they said the Firebird is completely dead.

That blog is also quite old, and many of the plans at GM are changing on a daily basis so it seems. The GTO might be selling pretty well right now to what it was projected to, but things aren't looking up for it to continue to be in the Pontiac lineup in the following years.

So Im not crazy and it is in the blog somewhere, I tried searching it for a few minutes and couldn't find in which post but Im pretty sure it was said somewhere. If the Firebird does come back I believe they would try and make it very different on the exterior like mentioned before, one being retro and the other being modern. The worst thing GM could do in my opinion if they released the Camaro would be to create a firebird that would directly compete for its sales. Its like an election, you have 400 voters, you dont want to guys running in the same party under the same ideas because you wouldnt get 100 votes for candidate A, 100 for candidate B, 200 for Candidate C (Mustang,etc).

Thats one of my biggest problems with Gm is how they create a minivan and other types of cars for every division which directly compete against eachother and are all so close to each other.

I agree with the one retro one not theory. I think the main thing it comes down to is: What will replace the GTO when it is shelved, hopefully soon.

if the Camaro is a hit, you can be assured that there will be "another shot" car also on the market by another brand, as Mark LaNave likes to call it. The Firebird wont be far behind, if they didnt want to do rebadging the Sky wouldnt be in the mix... if they didnt want to do rebadging GMC would be eliminated. But there is a market for it. There are countless people who come to my Chevrolet store and really want an GMC Envoy because they dont like the tail lights of the Trail Blazer.

if GM could get another hit show like Knight Rider, or Smoky the Bandit, with a debut car their sales would be fantastic again, I mean look at the value of classic Chargers right now, I know friend who could easily get his sold for 100,000+... GM needs to advertise correctly, The matrix is probably the number 1 reason why Cadillac is doing well right now. That was fantastic advertising, you got to see every angle of the CTS and it was beautiful.

The GTO may be selling, but its only because GM cant offer something to compete with the mustang. the GTO is a slow dull version of the Vette, and in no way will ever be a flag ship like the TransAm or original GTO was. Perhaps if it was called something else, it might sell better... but a lot of people are pissed off about the GTO being named a GTO...

So Im not crazy and it is in the blog somewhere, I tried searching it for a few minutes and couldn't find in which post but Im pretty sure it was said somewhere. If the Firebird does come back I believe they would try and make it very different on the exterior like mentioned before, one being retro and the other being modern. The worst thing GM could do in my opinion if they released the Camaro would be to create a firebird that would directly compete for its sales. Its like an election, you have 400 voters, you dont want to guys running in the same party under the same ideas because you wouldnt get 100 votes for candidate A, 100 for candidate B, 200 for Candidate C (Mustang,etc).

Thats one of my biggest problems with Gm is how they create a minivan and other types of cars for every division which directly compete against eachother and are all so close to each other.

This is great thinking, look at the G6 and the Malibu, if GM could do that for the Camaro and Firebird it would have a tremendous effect, but somehow they must keep both of them true to their roots... for the 4th gen, the whole body was the same, true for the 3rd gens... just the grill and fin were different.

and the thing about the election, why do you think the democrates hate when nader runs? although he doesnt afiliate himself with the democrates he splits their vote

I think I have a solution to the "Pontiac needs excitement" argument.

Stop calling pontiac the excitement division. Just change the nickname. Then all the cars, no matter how borring will be perfect for pontiac.

I think I have a solution to the "Pontiac needs excitement" argument.

Stop calling pontiac the excitement division. Just change the nickname. Then all the cars, no matter how borring will be perfect for pontiac.

You sir.......have a future at GM marketing. ;)

if the Camaro is a hit, you can be assured that there will be "another shot" car also on the market by another brand, as Mark LaNave likes to call it. The Firebird wont be far behind


IF Pontiac is still around when Camaro comes out....

and IF they get a new GTO...........


There would be no purpose in reskinning Camaro to get a Firebird. Why have a GTO sized Firebird if you have a GTO sized GTO?

I like the 4th gen Camaro looks over Firebirds (to boy racey - claddy for me).

3rd gens - About a toss up here. God a 92 Firehawk is DAMN sexy! heh

IF Pontiac is still around when Camaro comes out....

and IF they get a new GTO...........


There would be no purpose in reskinning Camaro to get a Firebird. Why have a GTO sized Firebird if you have a GTO sized GTO?

The GTO is not going to be around long, its already been canceled everywhere but here, why should we expect it to continue much beyond the camaros debut? The Trans Am is a flag ship for Pontiac like The corvette is for Chevrolet, when there is a Trans Am, most of the rest of Pontiac will be a performance inspired devision.

The GTO is not going to be around long, its already been canceled everywhere but here, why should we expect it to continue much beyond the camaros debut? The Trans Am is a flag ship for Pontiac like The corvette is for Chevrolet, when there is a Trans Am, most of the rest of Pontiac will be a performance inspired devision.

He is implying that if we get a reskinned Camaro for Pontiac, that with the current dimensions the new Camaro may be, a reskinned version of it would be more aptly named GTO.

He is implying that if we get a reskinned Camaro for Pontiac, that with the current dimensions the new Camaro may be, a reskinned version of it would be more aptly named GTO.

not for me... I want something that says Trans Am on the side...
the car I'd most like to see is a next gen ws6... thats seriosuly something that would be hard to beat I think... the 98-02 WS6 are one of the most beautiful cars I've ever seen. Its just so Agressive, something that pontaic needs, look at the DAMN gto... that thing looks like a civic "go big" or "supersized me" with a v8 in it... pontiac is an agressive perfomanac devision, not just a reskinned bag of potatoes... although many people prefered the simplicity and the non racer boy version (camaro) I love my formula and really... really love the new ws6's...
if they could throw a firebird label and revive camaros sister, I will be in hog heaven.

not for me... I want something that says Trans Am on the side...
the car I'd most like to see is a next gen ws6... thats seriosuly something that would be hard to beat I think... the 98-02 WS6 are one of the most beautiful cars I've ever seen. Its just so Agressive, something that pontaic needs, look at the DAMN gto... that thing looks like a civic "go big" or "supersized me" with a v8 in it... pontiac is an agressive perfomanac devision, not just a reskinned bag of potatoes... although many people prefered the simplicity and the non racer boy version (camaro) I love my formula and really... really love the new ws6's...
if they could throw a firebird label and revive camaros sister, I will be in hog heaven.

I still don't think you are understanding what he meant. If the Camaro comes out being the big fatass z284ever is afraid of it becoming, than a Pontiac sister car that is rebadged will have its same large dimensions. The new Camaro could be much akin to the GTO we currently have now, not a sleek Firebird. Why bother putting a Firebird badge on a car that would be better suited to have a GTO badge?

I still don't think you are understanding what he meant. If the Camaro comes out being the big fatass z284ever is afraid of it becoming, than a Pontiac sister car that is rebadged will have its same large dimensions. The new Camaro could be much akin to the GTO we currently have now, not a sleek Firebird. Why bother putting a Firebird badge on a car that would be better suited to have a GTO badge?

why put a camaro badge on a bloated car, call it a chevelle? wasnt the GTO's sister the Chevelle or am I getting my badging wrong?

why put a camaro badge on a bloated car, call it a chevelle? wasnt the GTO's sister the Chevelle or am I getting my badging wrong?

Nope, you are right. Chevelle wasa GTO's sister.

Why put a Camaro badge on a bloated car? That is a good question indeed. Hopefully in the end all of this will have played out to be nothing we should have worried about, like Red has said.

Nope, you are right. Chevelle wasa GTO's sister.

Why put a Camaro badge on a bloated car? That is a good question indeed. Hopefully in the end all of this will have played out to be nothing we should have worried about, like Red has said.


Lets not forget the Camaro Berlinetta, dont give them credit until credit is due.

And IMO the Chevelle NOT a /large/ car.

And IMO the Chevelle NOT a /large/ car.

it takes the same size in the garage as a suburban :eek:

nova was smaller, and the camaro was the smallest

NewbieWar: it takes the same size in the garage as a suburban

nova was smaller, and the camaro was the smallestDoubtful, but it did share the same LARGE engine, 454!..

First, Z/28 is to Camaro, what T/A is to Firebird...some just act as if they're two different cars...?
Second, PRICE is why Pontiac can use a Camaro variant, as in the past...sure the new GTO is small as the older TA's, but for $10K less, there still is a niche for a FIREBIRD too... :cool:

Doubtful, but it did share the same LARGE engine, 454!..

First, Z/28 is to Camaro, what T/A is to Firebird...some just act as if they're two different cars...?
Second, PRICE is why Pontiac can use a Camaro variant, as in the past...sure the new GTO is small as the older TA's, but for $10K less, there still is a niche for a FIREBIRD too... :cool:


The Formula is what the Z/28 is to the Camaro to the firebird.

the old TA's where very sleek looking, something the GTO lacks IMHO. I personally wouldnt even put the two in the same category.

I think they should just trash the whole Holden GTO thing. Why even attepmt to make a new "camaro" out of that chassis if it already isnt selling. Sure some people will be inclined to buy it just because it says Camaro, but if it turns out to be a flop like the GTO (most likely wont) then where do you go next? If it doesnt go bad, people will still be discoureged about how it performs and it will be a disgrace to the camaro name, just like the new GTO is not in my mind...a GTO. I say trash the GTO chassis, form a new one make the Next Gen in F-Bodies....camaro AND firebird. It cant hurt chevy nor pontiac to have those cars

The problem with Pontiac right now is there name have no value in the market they are shooting at. They have become a bland car company which they could have turned around with the GTO which in the beginning had hype around it but the car had the oposite of what the company needed in my opinion. The GTO had performance but they made it way too heavy and the performance didn't match looks. If my friends saw the GTO at a drag strip they would probably say "dang look at that fast Grand Prix". (By the way the Pontiac site does a good job marketing, actually looks very nice)

If they wanted to fit that niche they should have made a more Corvette-like car because with the hype around the GTO name it should have sold pretty good. Would you have tell someone you bought a 400 hp car from Pontiac, a company that has truly been out of the performance game that looks like a sedan or one that looks like a true sports car and carries the GTO name. Personally I do not see any GTO in this current vehicle which sort of ruined the point for some people.

If the Camaro does come back there will be a few problems with bringing the Firebird back. For one the Firebird would have to look a good deal different that the Camaro in order for them to stay out eachothers buyers. I also think if they are going to go with a modern Firebird they should rebadge it anyways because all the revival cars GM has may get out of control. The Firebird name also doesnt carry nearly as large of following as the Camaro name does, theres many people would buy a Camaro if a Firebird didn't come out anyways. Plus, for those that dont know Firebird name previously the name itself is kinda well ya know.

I think they should just trash the whole Holden GTO thing. Why even attepmt to make a new "camaro" out of that chassis if it already isnt selling. Sure some people will be inclined to buy it just because it says Camaro, but if it turns out to be a flop like the GTO (most likely wont) then where do you go next? If it doesnt go bad, people will still be discoureged about how it performs and it will be a disgrace to the camaro name, just like the new GTO is not in my mind...a GTO. I say trash the GTO chassis, form a new one make the Next Gen in F-Bodies....camaro AND firebird. It cant hurt chevy nor pontiac to have those cars

You have it backwards. The Camaro is not going to built off the GTO chassis. The possible problem mentioned here is that when the Camaro comes back out to market, its own chassis will promote a car that is as big as the current GTO, and that is why the comment was made, if the GTO is not going to be imported here after 2006 because there is no platform for it, why not just make a new GTO here as a reskinned Camaro, as the dimensions will be similiar to the previous few years of GTO. Hence, z284evers's remark of, why name the Chevy reskin a Firebird, when the GTO would be more earning of that name.

My problem is that, should his doom and gloom somehow turn out to be reality, it does not bode well for the enthusiast's reception of the new Camaro.

The Firebird is dead and Im happy. It was always a notch uglier than the Camaro...

To each his own. I've always thought the Camaro was uglier!

... Why bother putting a Firebird badge on a car that would be better suited to have a GTO badge?
So why is it "better suited" to be a GTO? If you ask me, the GTO name has done nothing in the current market. The traditional GTO fans hate it and the kids can't afford it.

To each his own. I've always thought the Camaro was uglier!

or atleast a more Plain look to it... Firebird is something I always thought looked worse until i bought one, then after owning one for 2 years, I'd much rather have a bird over a camaro. even if the Camaro outsells the firebird 3-1 it is still worth it in my mind... give the GM enthusiast some flavor...

The GTO is to a chevelle, what the firebird is to a camaro...

so why offend more people?

Chevelle 70 SS
Height 52.7 inches
Weight 4,000 lbs
Width 70.2 inches
Length 189 inches
Wheelbase 112 inches

67-69 camaro
length 184.6 in
Width 72.3 in
Height 50.5 in
wheel base 108.1 in

4th gen Camaro
Exterior length 193.5"
Exterior body width 74.1"
Exterior height 51.8"
Wheelbase 101.1"

okay so the 4th gen was bigger then the original chevelle? the Chevelle was heavier tho... and the suburban was 219inches long, so neither of them are too far off, but they look the same size in my friends garage...

but the Chevelle / GTO was bigger then the original camaro, it was also heavier and taller... (also had a bigger engine :D )

I think they should just trash the whole Holden GTO thing. Why even attepmt to make a new "camaro" out of that chassis if it already isnt selling. Sure some people will be inclined to buy it just because it says Camaro, but if it turns out to be a flop like the GTO (most likely wont) then where do you go next? If it doesnt go bad, people will still be discoureged about how it performs and it will be a disgrace to the camaro name, just like the new GTO is not in my mind...a GTO. I say trash the GTO chassis, form a new one make the Next Gen in F-Bodies....camaro AND firebird. It cant hurt chevy nor pontiac to have those cars


1. Who on earth said Camaro was going to be based on the GTO?

2. GTO isn't a flop. It's selling at twice the rate the Cobra did. A vehicle sold only in loaded to the gills high performance setup most definately isn't going to sell in high numbers. Cobras ran 9-13K per year. GTO's currently running a 15-18K per year clip.

3. The Holden V-chassis (a evolution of GM's Omega car) is being phased out as Holden's "Zeta" chassis is phased in.

4. GM WILL NOT make a unique chassis for a car that's likely to sell under 100K per year and carry a $20K price tag in base form. Sorry, ain't gonna happen.

The GTO may be selling, but its only because GM cant offer something to compete with the mustang. the GTO is a slow dull version of the Vette, and in no way will ever be a flag ship like the TransAm or original GTO was. Perhaps if it was called something else, it might sell better... but a lot of people are pissed off about the GTO being named a GTO...

1. GTO ain't slow by any standards. ESPECIALLY the 2005 version! :no:

2.Trans Am wasn't Pontiac's "Flagship". The Grand Prix was. The LJ in particular.

3. Anyone pissed off about the GTO being named the GTO in my own experience don't have a clue about GTO's history. A few actually do know some things, but for every 1 I've found there's 100 blowhards who have their heads up their bum-bums. :)


why put a camaro badge on a bloated car, call it a chevelle? wasnt the GTO's sister the Chevelle or am I getting my badging wrong?

QUOTE=RussStang: Nope, you are right. Chevelle wasa GTO's sister.

Actually Chevelle was Pontiac Tempest and then LeMans' sister.

GTO was a engine & trim package on the Tempest & later the LeMans.

Why put a Camaro badge on a bloated car? That is a good question indeed. Hopefully in the end all of this will have played out to be nothing we should have worried about, like Red has said.

The "Bloated Camaro" story should be on Discovery Channel's "Mythbusters". I haven't come across one person who's currently involved or has seen the design or specs that calls it bloated, and Red has come here on more than 3 occasions to discount that. To top it all off, we're going to see the car in about 4 months anyways, so the whole thing should be given a rest till we actually see the thing. :lol:


How I think this rumor got started?

Crossed wires. The right hand not knowing what the left was doing. Residual bitterness over a offshore division taking money and doing engineering work that you'd want for your own shop. Old-think GM where some can't comprehend that different coupes appeal to different markets.

Consider these things:

1. Holden was developing a large coupe for GM which would have replaced cars like the Monte Carlo the Holden Monaro.

2. Holden WAS NOT DOING ANY WORK ON CAMARO! It was [color=red]NOT[/color=red] a part of "Zeta".

3. This "sigma-lite" chassis Mark Reuss spoke of as a basis for Camaro is based on the original direction Camaro was going to take before the plug got pulled.

4. The Monte Carlo isn't a "Camaro", yet is slated to be replaced with a large roomy RWD coupe.



It's easy to see how some people might be confused by all this, and think the MC and "Chevy Mustang" would be replaced by the same car, and be a big heavy "pig". But they might not realize:

...that a chassis that might be developed for a big car, could be shortened or narrowed for a "Camaro". The STS is wider than a CTS as well as longer, so it's not at all a strange concept...

...or that while they were working on "Zeta" someone else in another area unknown to him was creating a different "sports bike" and made the "bike" more cost effective...

...or that although "Zeta" was moved back to the end of the decade, one might have missed that much work was done on something else some time ago and was cancelled, but was now pulled out and because of work already done won't take very long to get to market.

.....but then again, I'm just speculating. ;)

I was told at the begining of the year that regardless as to what I read, wait for the dust to settle before forming an opinion.

I see why I was told that. :D

Good stuff guionM. :thumb:


-Mike

all i have to say, is give me a firebird... the GTO is going to get shelved, it has no reason to stay in production other then to fill a small void for a few years between f-body gens...

...or that although "Zeta" was moved back to the end of the decade, one might have missed that much work was done on something else some time ago and was cancelled, but was now pulled out and because of work already done won't take very long to get to market.

.....but then again, I'm just speculating. ;)

hey Guy, has much changed in the design from the "rough draft" we have already seen....tihnk Nomad... ;)

You have it backwards. The Camaro is not going to built off the GTO chassis. The possible problem mentioned here is that when the Camaro comes back out to market, its own chassis will promote a car that is as big as the current GTO, and that is why the comment was made, if the GTO is not going to be imported here after 2006 because there is no platform for it, why not just make a new GTO here as a reskinned Camaro, as the dimensions will be similiar to the previous few years of GTO. Hence, z284evers's remark of, why name the Chevy reskin a Firebird, when the GTO would be more earning of that name.

My problem is that, should his doom and gloom somehow turn out to be reality, it does not bode well for the enthusiast's reception of the new Camaro.

Exactly a re-skinned camaro here should just be called the firebird, after all thats what it is. If they reskin the camaro as a new(er) GTO some people will specualte getting it due to how poorly the new GTO is selling now. They might still be afraid of buying a new(er) GTO because they will think of all the ones from 04 and 05. If the shelve the GTO totally, and reskin the camaro as the Firebird, I think that could be the best thing to happen to Pontiac in a long while. I mean who doesnt want to see those commercials again "The Pontiac Trans Am, The muscle car lives" I would be so excited to just see it back. To all those who say the GTO is the Flagship of Pontiac, I have to dissagree. For all the people from 75-02 who got to experiance a Firebird, never got to experiance a GTO. To me the Firebird is more Pontiac then the GTO

the original GTO was definatly a flag ship that turned around the company, but that role is being placed on the solstice right now, and the new(er) gto is doing a horible job at trying to get people to look at GM, and much less pontiac... the trans Am car had a huge "gotta have it factor" I'm sure, but as the new magazine said the GTO just didnt have it ;)

a new transam amply styled could do wonders for GM, expecailly right now with the want for performance.

If the Firebird comes back, it should be what the Cougar was/will be to the Mustang. I could see that fitting in Lutz's future for a more BMW-esque Pontiac.. (I know that'll never happen, but it's worth a try)

I personally think that if anyone who was in power actually thought expanding Pontiac's sales numbers would be a good thing, than there would be more than enough room in the lineup for a 4 (or better yet) 5 passenger Grand Touring coupe called GTO and a 4 person sports coupe called Firebird.

With pontiacs already not-selling GTO that weighs 4000 lbs! I think a new firebird would be perfect for Pontiac. I would buy it, as long as it doesnt look like any other pontiac sedan, and its not $30,000

Like stated before the GTO is selling, and FYI, the car weights 3,700lbs. The car isn't a an under-performer by any means, even with the LS1.

Also, alot of you people need to stop, and think before you open your pie holes about the price issue on new cars, GTO in particular. The 4th gen Camaro and Firebirds with the LS1 were coming in around $27,000 ~ $32,000(+) depending on model, trim, options. IMHO, If the 4th gen F-Bodies were sold at the same time as the GTO you would have alot of people switching over if they were in that market. Looking at the GTO, and 4th gen side by side isn't fair to the F-Body in the sense that the GTO has comparable performance, better materials, better build, IRS, etc, for a similar price.

If you REALLY think that the new V8 Camaro (Possibly Firebird) is going to be a $25,000 car your full of sh!t. Let's see, if the make the car, it will be atleast 5 years later, so figure in some inflation, and the new car will be a totally new build/new car vs. the 4th gen being pretty much the same car as the 82 F-Body, plus the dreaded dealer mark ups?

I hope you guys that are waiting inline for this car are bringing your big wallets ;)

I'd take a $30,000 Firebird over a $25,000 GTO. The GTO isn't selling. Oh, sure they sold their allotment of what was it? 8000 cars this year? The last Firebird sold 40,000 units. And the Chrysler's 300 and SRT8 are selling like wildfire - and they're what the GTO should have been.

Originally posted by Dwarf Killer

I'd take a $30,000 Firebird over a $25,000 GTO. The GTO isn't selling. Oh, sure they sold their allotment of what was it? 8000 cars this year? The last Firebird sold 40,000 units. And the Chrysler's 300 and SRT8 are selling like wildfire - and they're what the GTO should have been.

Your facts are a wee bit misleading. According to my research......

2002 OVERALL PRODUCTION
Firebird coupe 8,423
Firebird convertible 1,498
Formula coupe 901
Trans Am coupe 3,962
Trans Am convertible 998
Trans Am cpe. w/Ram Air* 12,212
Trans Am cony. w/Ram Air* 2,696
Total 30,690

The Firebird figures are found at LS1TECH, in case you want to go looking...

The GTO allotment is not 8,000 units, it's more like 18,000ish for 2005. 15,000ish for 2004.

I won't debate any figures for 300/SRT but I'm sure accurate numbers are avilable somewhere. Personally, I too will miss the Firebird/TA, but for what the GTO is (and I am a fan of the old car) and how it was brought over, I sure would love to be able to get one. I think it fits quite well with what the original was and is a step forward indeed.

I'd take a $30,000 Firebird over a $25,000 GTO. The GTO isn't selling. Oh, sure they sold their allotment of what was it? 8000 cars this year? The last Firebird sold 40,000 units. And the Chrysler's 300 and SRT8 are selling like wildfire - and they're what the GTO should have been.

I think its obvious, you're absolutely ignorant of the new GTO, and its predecessor. The new GTO is a low volume car, it wasn't ever intended to be a mass produced car. It was always intended to sell less than 20,000 units. As for what it should have been (DCM LX Cars?)? I always thought the GTO was supposed to be a mid sized car, with a big engine, and be "sporty?" If you really think the GTO should have been a heavier, four-door, IMHO old man's car, like the LX cars, you missed the point. If that is what it should be, or will become, COUNT ME OUT. The new GTOs DNA is exactly what it should be, IMHO. Please, before making ignorant comments, please go look at the car, and test drive one before bashing it. You might be surprised. :rolleyes:

As for units sold, sadly enough, the Firebird was intended to sell more than 40,000 units. Also, you need to check your numbers, 8,000 isn't near the truth. The car has cleared that number already.

Your facts are a wee bit misleading. According to my research......

2002 OVERALL PRODUCTION
Firebird coupe 8,423
Firebird convertible 1,498
Formula coupe 901
Trans Am coupe 3,962
Trans Am convertible 998
Trans Am cpe. w/Ram Air* 12,212
Trans Am cony. w/Ram Air* 2,696
Total 30,690

The Firebird figures are found at LS1TECH, in case you want to go looking...

The GTO allotment is not 8,000 units, it's more like 18,000ish for 2005. 15,000ish for 2004.

I won't debate any figures for 300/SRT but I'm sure accurate numbers are avilable somewhere. Personally, I too will miss the Firebird/TA, but for what the GTO is (and I am a fan of the old car) and how it was brought over, I sure would love to be able to get one. I think it fits quite well with what the original was and is a step forward indeed.


I don't think my facts are misleading. My point was that the Firebird outsold the GTO by a ridiculously wide margin. YOU just proved that even after 10 YEARS of production on the same model Firebird killed the "new" GTO in sales. How many of this model GTO do you think GM would sell after 9 years?

The GTO is a Grand Prix with a V8. That's all. It won't last. It will be gone by 2008. Just watch.

I don't think my facts are misleading. My point was that the Firebird outsold the GTO by a ridiculously wide margin. YOU just proved that even after 10 YEARS of production on the same model Firebird killed the "new" GTO in sales. How many of this model GTO do you think GM would sell after 9 years?

The GTO is a Grand Prix with a V8. That's all. It won't last. It will be gone by 2008. Just watch.

Your "facts" aren't misleading; they are however based on the wrong assumptions. The new GTO was ALWAYS intended to be a low volume car. Pontiac NEVER intended to sell more than 20,000 units per year. So, yes the Firebird did outsell the GTO, you're an idiot if you're surprised by this.

As for the GTO being a Grand Prix?
How about the 1966 GTO?
GTO? (http://www.pontiacserver.com/66gp_ad.jpg)

My mistake, that was a Grand Prix, here is the 1966 GTO:
GTO (http://www.pontiacserver.com/66gto_ad3a.jpg)

I am glad the GTO NEVER looked like another Pontiac before the 2004... :rolleyes:

You're proving your ignorance once again.
Please explain how it is a Grand Prix.
These cars don't share parts; the similarities are in the styling cues.
Please don't forget the car is a Pontiac, and they have this "new" concept they are trying out. Its called "Brand Recognition," you might have seen it before on the BMW, Chevrolet, Cadillac, et al cars being produced. ;)

The Camaro is dead and I'm happy. It was always a notch uglier than the Firebird, especially the 4th Gens (where it was 10 notches uglier).

have you ever seen a ls1 ws6? thats ugly :confused: i never would have thought that, almost everyone i know, thinks trans am look better, espcially between 98-02 :rolleyes:

Your "facts" aren't misleading; they are however based on the wrong assumptions. The new GTO was ALWAYS intended to be a low volume car. Pontiac NEVER intended to sell more than 20,000 units per year. So, yes the Firebird did outsell the GTO, you're an idiot if you're surprised by this.

As for the GTO being a Grand Prix?
How about the 1966 GTO?
GTO? (http://www.pontiacserver.com/66gp_ad.jpg)

My mistake, that was a Grand Prix, here is the 1966 GTO:
GTO (http://www.pontiacserver.com/66gto_ad3a.jpg)

I am glad the GTO NEVER looked like another Pontiac before the 2004... :rolleyes:

You're proving your ignorance once again.
Please explain how it is a Grand Prix.
These cars don't share parts; the similarities are in the styling cues.
Please don't forget the car is a Pontiac, and they have this "new" concept they are trying out. Its called "Brand Recognition," you might have seen it before on the BMW, Chevrolet, Cadillac, et al cars being produced. ;)

Your point is well taken. Except it's not 1966 anymore, the current BMW-copycat grille on the Grand Prix is dull, bland, boring, and same with the GTO. Perhaps the worst thing about it is that it doesn't have anything to do with Pontiac's heritage stylingwise, and it is totally uninspired from a creative point of view.

The other problem is that the original GTO was discontinued because it didn't sell either. In the 1970s it was gradually replaced by the Firebird and the Grand Prix, because it was...too ugly, too boring. As for sales, you can bet your ass that the first GTO year was a test. There would have been more cars imported if they sold well but they didn't. The GTO is a styling disaster and a sales embarrassment.

It will be gone in 2008. We need a Firebird.

the original GTO was definatly a flag ship that turned around the company, but that role is being placed on the solstice right now, and the new(er) gto is doing a horible job at trying to get people to look at GM, and much less pontiac... the trans Am car had a huge "gotta have it factor" I'm sure, but as the new magazine said the GTO just didnt have it ;)

a new transam amply styled could do wonders for GM, expecailly right now with the want for performance.


I dont know, i see alot of people in there Late 30's - Mid 40's always staring at them in parking lots, personally i dont care for it.

The other night i was with some buddys, we went to the bar for happy hour. Come out and there is a Red GTO outside next to my Z', none of them are apart of any crowd when it comes to cars. All 3 stood there and stared at it for about 3 minutes. Saying "Wow this thing is bad-ass, what a killer car. Way better then that mustang." and other things to that tune.

Mind you again NONE of these guys have a care either way what brand it is, they where commenting on its Looks souly. And although ive not seen a 05' GTO run, Im sure its 1/4's aint to bad. So it would appear atleast locally the only issue with it is the pricetag, in comparison to a stripper Z in its last year of production.

Yes i know the GTO comes fully loaded, but at my age. CD stereo and power seats dont mean squat, its all about the thrill of petal mashing.

so the enthusiasts are there, but atleast in my experiance its just a little pricey.

The 2004 didn't offer much in the way of styling, to me, for a $30K + price tag....BUT!...a RED '05 model with Platnum accents IS another story!
If I were positioned to afford one RIGHT NOW, I'd definitely buy one!!! :eek: :bow: (But I really, really, really want to save for, and wait for a 5th Gen, if I don't like it, (butfrom all I can hear, I WILL,) then I'll turn back to a GTO! ;)

Your point is well taken. Except it's not 1966 anymore, the current BMW-copycat grille on the Grand Prix is dull, bland, boring, and same with the GTO. Perhaps the worst thing about it is that it doesn't have anything to do with Pontiac's heritage stylingwise, and it is totally uninspired from a creative point of view.

Once again, that is your opinion on the style. I obviously like it, you don't, we could argue this all week and not gain an inch. The car isn't retro, and the idea to use the Holden as the basis meant it wouldn't be retro.

The other problem is that the original GTO was discontinued because it didn't sell either. In the 1970s it was gradually replaced by the Firebird and the Grand Prix, because it was...too ugly, too boring.

Once again, your ignorance is showing. The GTO wasn't replaced by the Firebird. The GTO was a based on the mid sized sedan, and wasn't based at the same buyer as the firebird. What you're saying in effect, is that the Camaro too, replaced the Chevelle? That is just stupid. :rolleyes: The GTO was phased out, like all muscle cars, because there was a shift in the automotive market. Insurance, and oil prices were on the rise, and the US wasn't willing or able to bear owning a "Gas Guzzling" big block anymore. So, yes sells were dropping off, but they were based heavily on factors that were outside of GM's control. The Pony car didn't replace the Muscle car, as they were two different markets, aimed at two different buyers.

As for sales, you can bet your ass that the first GTO year was a test. There would have been more cars imported if they sold well but they didn't.

Absouletly, had there been demand for 100,000, I sure they would have told Holden to get in gear, and starting loading the ships. But, the car is selling where it was projected to sell, and that, quite frankly, is all GM needed to happen to keep the cars coming over on a ship :D

The GTO is a styling disaster and a sales embarrassment.

It will be gone in 2008. We need a Firebird.

Once again, the sells are what they are. It wasn't meant to be a high volume line. It is selling where it was projected to sell. They can't do much more than that. If anything was a sales disaster, it was the F-Body. Let's talk about an embarassment: No marketing, cheap build, cheap materials, big price tag, and basically the same car for 21 years. That is what makes me sick about my Z, when I really get to thinking about it. The people that wanted them couldn't afford them, and the people that could afford them, didn't want them. You should want the GTO to suceed IMHO, if the GTO is a success, that gives GM confidence to try dipping into new markets, or trying new things for the performance buyer.

As for needing a Firebird, I'd love to see anything from GM that "is a" Camaro/Firebird type car (I don't care what it is called, as long as the formula for success is there). But, it has been stated before, the Firebird doesn't fit into Pontiac's plans, and there hasn't been talk that I have heard of it making a return. All talk has been solely on the Camaro.

I really like all the moronic comments about how poorly the GTO is selling. GTO practically outsells LS1 firebird outright. Considering it only comes one way (fully loaded), and is 'so boring', that's a pretty nice feat. Subtract out cloth seat cars and i bet GTO might even be outselling the fireturd.

btw, arguing over the GTO's styling is retarded. Some of you might not like it, but you have to understand that to a lot of us, the LS1 bird with it's 12 scoops on the front end is the epitome of tacky late-90s poncho garbage, and thus is 'just as bad' in the other direction. Considering how POORLY the late firebird sold, i don;t think we're alone. If the 98+ firebird was really such a great looking car, how come no one bought it?

Exactly a re-skinned camaro here should just be called the firebird, after all thats what it is. If they reskin the camaro as a new(er) GTO some people will specualte getting it due to how poorly the new GTO is selling now. They might still be afraid of buying a new(er) GTO because they will think of all the ones from 04 and 05. If the shelve the GTO totally, and reskin the camaro as the Firebird, I think that could be the best thing to happen to Pontiac in a long while. I mean who doesnt want to see those commercials again "The Pontiac Trans Am, The muscle car lives" I would be so excited to just see it back. To all those who say the GTO is the Flagship of Pontiac, I have to dissagree. For all the people from 75-02 who got to experiance a Firebird, never got to experiance a GTO. To me the Firebird is more Pontiac then the GTO

Ughh, I think my point has been taken way out of context, and I have tried to explain it over and over. I am not arguing that a reskinned Camaro should be a Firebird, or GTO, or whatever. My only point was to help clarify z284evers' post that had some people confused by making it apparent that he thinks the Camaro will be far too heavy when it is released, on its own platform.

I really like all the moronic comments about how poorly the GTO is selling. GTO practically outsells LS1 firebird outright. Considering it only comes one way (fully loaded), and is 'so boring', that's a pretty nice feat. Subtract out cloth seat cars and i bet GTO might even be outselling the fireturd.

btw, arguing over the GTO's styling is retarded. Some of you might not like it, but you have to understand that to a lot of us, the LS1 bird with it's 12 scoops on the front end is the epitome of tacky late-90s poncho garbage, and thus is 'just as bad' in the other direction. Considering how POORLY the late firebird sold, i don;t think we're alone. If the 98+ firebird was really such a great looking car, how come no one bought it?

Because it was far too extreme. Honestly, the only places I ever hear people really complaining about how the bird looked is on internet forums. Just about everyone I have ever talked to said it was a good looking car, and most people I have talked to think the car is absolutely badass in WS.6 trim. And this is coming from more than just a 20-something crowd, people of just about any age of have talked to have said this. Most people just think the car was too extreme though.

I know how limited the GTO's build numbers were, due to it being imported and all, but the fact of the matter is that in reality, the Firebird sold more than the GTO, and I am betting pulled in more profit. We will never know how well the GTO could have sold if it was uncorked on its production number limit, so we can only discuss sales figures in reality. What kind of numbers did the Firebird sell in at the beginning of the 4th gen's run? Or better yet, how much would the GTO actually sell if it were on sale for 9 years with not much of a facelift? My guess would be not as well.

Sorry if it seems like I am attacking the GTO, because that is not my intention. I really like the ones with the "tacky" factory installed body kit; I think it looks really good, and gets some aggressive looks it needs with it. I just don't like how much grief the 4th gen's get on this website, like they were the biggest mistake of all time or something. It sure would have helped if that got more of a significant restyling, and got advertised decently towards the end.

Your point is well taken. Except it's not 1966 anymore, the current BMW-copycat grille on the Grand Prix is dull, bland, boring, and same with the GTO. Perhaps the worst thing about it is that it doesn't have anything to do with Pontiac's heritage stylingwise, and it is totally uninspired from a creative point of view.

The other problem is that the original GTO was discontinued because it didn't sell either. In the 1970s it was gradually replaced by the Firebird and the Grand Prix, because it was...too ugly, too boring. As for sales, you can bet your ass that the first GTO year was a test. There would have been more cars imported if they sold well but they didn't. The GTO is a styling disaster and a sales embarrassment.

It will be gone in 2008. We need a Firebird.

Although I do agree with you about Pontiac's styling being too conservative nowadays (they could make their excitement cars look more exciting while leaving all the body cladding off), but I think the rest of your statement is either own opinion or conjecture. How exactly was the 2005 GTO a flop? If the styling on it was a disaster, they wouldn't have moved any units at all.

Although I do agree with you about Pontiac's styling being too conservative nowadays (they could make their excitement cars look more exciting while leaving all the body cladding off), but I think the rest of your statement is either own opinion or conjecture. How exactly was the 2005 GTO a flop? If the styling on it was a disaster, they wouldn't have moved any units at all.


The GTO was far from a disaster, and even with its modest numbers. People seem to be agreeing with the sound of the checks they are writing for them.

...Most people just think the car was too extreme though...

...but the fact of the matter is that in reality, the Firebird sold more than the GTO...

I'm with you on the first point. The design had potential, but it was just too extreme, too many holes, too caricature. I'm not saying some people don't, but there are a lot of people who don't too. It's poarizing for sure.

As for sales, if you don't count V6 sales, which the GTO of course can't supplement itself with, the GTO sold pretty close with the TA and Formula combined in the LS1 years, which also never cracked 20k units IIRC.

Now imagine if you also took out all the cloth seat cars, so you were comparing similarly equipped cars, after all, the GTO only comes one way. I bet it'd be real interesting then.

I'm with you on the first point. The design had potential, but it was just too extreme, too many holes, too caricature. I'm not saying some people don't, but there are a lot of people who don't too. It's poarizing for sure.

As for sales, if you don't count V6 sales, which the GTO of course can't supplement itself with, the GTO sold pretty close with the TA and Formula combined in the LS1 years, which also never cracked 20k units IIRC.

Now imagine if you also took out all the cloth seat cars, so you were comparing similarly equipped cars, after all, the GTO only comes one way. I bet it'd be real interesting then.

And how can you say someone who wanted a Formula with cloths seats, but had to get leather, because it was the only thing available, wouldn't have just sucked it up and paid alittle bit more for leather? This is my point, we could speculate on this all day. I bet it would be really interesting to see if how well the GTO sold if GM turned their back on it and ran its production to 9 years with little to no advertising, and seldom a significant body restyling.

The "Bloated Camaro" story should be on Discovery Channel's "Mythbusters". I haven't come across one person who's currently involved or has seen the design or specs that calls it bloated, and Red has come here on more than 3 occasions to discount that. To top it all off, we're going to see the car in about 4 months anyways, so the whole thing should be given a rest till we actually see the thing. :lol:


How I think this rumor got started?

Crossed wires. The right hand not knowing what the left was doing. Residual bitterness over a offshore division taking money and doing engineering work that you'd want for your own shop. Old-think GM where some can't comprehend that different coupes appeal to different markets.

Consider these things:

1. Holden was developing a large coupe for GM which would have replaced cars like the Monte Carlo the Holden Monaro.

2. Holden WAS NOT DOING ANY WORK ON CAMARO! It was [color=red]NOT[/color=red] a part of "Zeta".

3. This "sigma-lite" chassis Mark Reuss spoke of as a basis for Camaro is based on the original direction Camaro was going to take before the plug got pulled.

4. The Monte Carlo isn't a "Camaro", yet is slated to be replaced with a large roomy RWD coupe.



It's easy to see how some people might be confused by all this, and think the MC and "Chevy Mustang" would be replaced by the same car, and be a big heavy "pig". But they might not realize:

...that a chassis that might be developed for a big car, could be shortened or narrowed for a "Camaro". The STS is wider than a CTS as well as longer, so it's not at all a strange concept...

...or that while they were working on "Zeta" someone else in another area unknown to him was creating a different "sports bike" and made the "bike" more cost effective...

...or that although "Zeta" was moved back to the end of the decade, one might have missed that much work was done on something else some time ago and was cancelled, but was now pulled out and because of work already done won't take very long to get to market.

.....but then again, I'm just speculating. ;)

I was told at the begining of the year that regardless as to what I read, wait for the dust to settle before forming an opinion.

I see why I was told that. :D

Well, I really disagree with much of what you say there Guy. Are you implying that Camaro will be a light, nimble, compact package? Have you really come across people that are working on the current car, because they are few and far between.

As far as any work on a future RWD replacement for Monte Carlo...any possibility of that would be in '11 or '12 or '13 or more likely not gonna happen. There is no such car currently in the pipeline or even being planned.




There is only ONE RWD coupe in the pipeline....let me repeat, just one.



EDIT: Just want to add that I have never detected any bitterness from NA regarding Holden's involvement in the previous Zeta. The question was why try to force a manufacturing bill of process on NA - which didn't fit it's process - when homegrown ones fit perfectly.

have you ever seen a ls1 ws6? thats ugly :confused: i never would have thought that, almost everyone i know, thinks trans am look better, espcially between 98-02 :rolleyes:
I really can't tell what you are getting at with your post.

Here is my point:

Firebirds (including Base, Formula, Trans Am, Firehawk and their appearance packages) > Camaro (Base, Z28, SS and their appearance packages)

Especially in the 4th gen. Especially in the 2nd Gen. 1st and 3rd Gens are closer.

ok, question, if the firebird were still around today? would the GTO's sales be unchanged? and would the GTO dip into firebird customers?

the GTO claims to be in a different catagory and a different buyers market, but without the f-body, the GTO is the only car for us, and it is a lowsy replacement. if the GTO sold 100+k a year we would all be happy for it, but lets face it, its too ugly and doesnt expand its options with other models(v6)

To answer your question, it depends on what you'd do with the GTO. The GTO exists because the 'Bird died. That's my understanding; I haven't read the thread, so I may have missed out on something. If you want the GTO to stay an intermediate, I'd make the Firebird something sized like the Torana concept. Make the top engine an F/I six cylinder and the bottom an EcoTec. Make AWD an option. There you go. Two different cars, two different markets.

Now, for part two. Yes, the GTO is the only GM car left in the RWD sporty market (CTS excluded). Ford and Dodge offer the Mustang and Charger, respectively. If you want to include the entire RWD sporty market, there's used Cateras, Thunderbirds (90s), 9C1 Caprices, Mustangs, Firebirds, and Camaros, not to mention all the foreign choices. The choices are hardly limited.

I personally don't consider the Goat a replacement for the F-Bodies, simply because there's nothing but the one engine option. And the fact there's no T-Top option ;) . If it was available with a six cylinder, cloth seats, and a cheaper radio option, then I'd be singing a different tune (and driving a different car :D ). But, it's only available in top trim. As far as looks, I think the new GTO is just as cool as the old GTOs, and I'd rank it right up there in the looks with the Vettes. I don't get why people hate the look.

But that's just me.

Why do these threads always turn into GTO bashing????

As far as I'm concerned, and as much as I like the GTO. The Solstice should become Pontiacs flagship. Pontiac has an opportunity with the Solstice to, dare I say it, become the Ford Cobra of the 21st century. Imagine the top of the line Solstice with a 5.3 303HP V8. Hmmmm.. You say never? Dont' bet on it. ;)


Solstice
Solstice GT
Solstice GTO.

the GTO claims to be in a different catagory and a different buyers market, but without the f-body, the GTO is the only car for us, and it is a lowsy replacement. if the GTO sold 100+k a year we would all be happy for it, but lets face it, its too ugly and doesnt expand its options with other models(v6)

The GTO isn't a Firebird replacement, the same way the SSR isn't a Camaro replacement. The Firebird, according to GM is done, and the GTO isn't aimed at the Firebird owner, its aimed at the newer pontiac buyer, the more upscale buyer. As far as a lowsy replacement?

Let's see:
The GTO offers a better ride, better build, better materials, more room for passangers (front and rear), better handling car, and with an LS2, its more powerful. All this is delivered for the same as a WS.6 would have cost new is 2002. The only thing the Firebird offered over the GTO was a list of options, but let's be honest" For most anyone on this board the only options that mattered were engine, color, seats, and T-Tops. It wasn't like anyone was building a car nothing like anyone else's. The F-Body wasn't a Scion. I guess since the GTO can beat the Firebird in all categories beside looks (which is totally subjective, so not a real win there...), and Options available, Its "lowsy"??!?!?

Good call.

its lowsy sales sure... 18k a year, thats phanominal, for an xlr... it doesnt replace the f-bodys sales... with the camaro and firebird combined doing probably 100k a year, 18 is piddly stuff... and to me, the GTO just is plain, nothing really all that makes me wanna have the car, i'd rather have an ls1 f-body its just as fast.

I guess since the GTO can beat the Firebird in all categories beside looks (which is totally subjective, so not a real win there...), and Options available, Its "lowsy"??!?!?

Good call.


Yes, its a piece of ****, and I hope it gets cancelled, If Pontiac doesn't have a Firebird I'd much rather Pontiac not exist, serious.

Yes, its a piece of ****, and I hope it gets cancelled, If Pontiac doesn't have a Firebird I'd much rather Pontiac not exist, serious.


That's an awfully selfish and petty way to look at it.

That's an awfully selfish and petty way to look at it.

Selfish?

Lets Define Pontiac Shall we?

All According to Pontiac Herritage, Pontaic.com:

1926 Pontiacs first 5 passeger coach

1929 Pontiac has sold 500k units so far...

1932 Pontiac's first coupe and convertable a 302 V8

1933 Pontiac's sales increase by 50% from 1932 by advertising campaigns toward female buyers

1936 Pontiac's 300 employees celebrate 1 millionth car (all employees were present all 9 years)

1937 "The most beautiful thing on wheels" & "Built to last 100,000 miles" were new slogans and they started production of their most expensive vehicle the deluxe eight convertable sedan.

1940 The Torpedo 8 four door sedan and the Special 6 station wagon were introduced

1941 Pontiac makes 6 and 8 cylinder engines avalible on all vehicles and market share jumps to 7.6 and units sky rocket to 330,000

1942-1946 Pontiac stops production to aid the Governement in making rocket bombs

1946 production starts about the same as it did when it left in 42

1948 Pontiac introduces Torpedo Deluxe 8 convertable coupe

1950 Best sales year in automotive history. Super Deluxe Catalina Coupe is introduced

19 okay we are gonna skip a little bit of stuf cause im getting tired... definatly go check it out tho at pontiac.com

okay from about 63 on out, styling and performance got to duke it out as far as priority went, but The Grand Prix was revolutionary, the GTO was revolutionary, but they both lost their flame as the firebird continued its fire well into the 80s and some of the 90s... The firebird was Pontiacs project car, like the vette for chevy, but the gto has little of the old pontiacs grace. the GTO is just a rebadged holden, and if holden was a world renound company I would be buying a holden Corvette, but since its not... it ought to stay in austrailia, because this lackluster styling and mediocur performance is unacceptable by pontiac. the 04 GTO was just as quick as my lt1... and the 05's arent as quick as the ls1's even with an extra 50 horsepower.

GTO has to go, and Pontiac Needs a car that it can be truely in love with, like the solstice, but it needs to be a much larger version, if they can go with a new name, and start a new herritage, Pontiac can do wonders, but the camaro needs a sister in the Pontiac Lineup. I'd like it to be named a firebird, but if its not gonna follow tradition firebird will not be a good nameplate.

The GTO offers a better ride, better build, better materials, more room for passangers (front and rear), better handling car, and with an LS2, its more powerful.


I would agree with all of that except for the better handling part. It sure didn't feel like it was better handling at least, and the tires that come on it (at least the 04s) are garbage.
The LS2 may make it more powerful, but the fastest I have ever heard one running was in GMHTP, and it turned a 13.2.

GTO has to go, and Pontiac Needs a car that it can be truely in love with, like the solstice, but it needs to be a much larger version, if they can go with a new name, and start a new herritage, Pontiac can do wonders, but the camaro needs a sister in the Pontiac Lineup. I'd like it to be named a firebird, but if its not gonna follow tradition firebird will not be a good nameplate.

GTO certainly doesn't have the old Pontiac attitude. I wish they would re-inject some attitude into their cars. What is wrong about a having a car that screams look at me. I still don't understand why it was ever decided to turn Pontiac into an American BMW spinoff. Just let Pontiac be Pontiac.

GTO certainly doesn't have the old Pontiac attitude. I wish they would re-inject some attitude into their cars. What is wrong about a having a car that screams look at me. I still don't understand why it was ever decided to turn Pontiac into an American BMW spinoff. Just let Pontiac be Pontiac.

for real, so many companys with they could have been pontiac back in the day, GM had companys others would only dream about, now GM is trying to be like everyone else instead of just being themselves

GTO certainly doesn't have the old Pontiac attitude. I wish they would re-inject some attitude into their cars. What is wrong about a having a car that screams look at me. I still don't understand why it was ever decided to turn Pontiac into an American BMW spinoff. Just let Pontiac be Pontiac.

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA

<snip>
As for the GTO being a Grand Prix?
How about the 1966 GTO?
GTO? (http://www.pontiacserver.com/66gp_ad.jpg)

My mistake, that was a Grand Prix, here is the 1966 GTO:
GTO (http://www.pontiacserver.com/66gto_ad3a.jpg)
</snip>


GTO has always looked like other pontiacs. I'd challenge you to prove me wrong, but since GTO was never anything but a badge/hood/engine package on a base model car, there's no point.

And let's not forget, The LS1 firebird has 'look at me' looks. It's sales trend looks something like how emanuel lewis's career. The other cars that the GTO resembles OTOH have fine sales records. hmmmmm, i wonder what's a better model to emulate?

As already said, why do threads about firebird degrade into GTO bash fests?

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA



GTO has always looked like other pontiacs. I'd challenge you to prove me wrong, but since GTO was never anything but a badge/hood/engine package on a base model car, there's no point.

And let's not forget, The LS1 firebird has 'look at me' looks. It's sales trend looks something like how emanuel lewis's career. The other cars that the GTO resembles OTOH have fine sales records. hmmmmm, i wonder what's a better model to emulate?

As already said, why do threads about firebird degrade into GTO bash fests?
I think it's because, ppl are so pissed the F-bodies are gone, so they take it out on the GTO, and anything else they feel was meant as a replacement for the twins. I agree about the WS6 Birds, and now the GTO is too plain? :confused: :shrug: It's a Catch 22!

GTO has always looked like other pontiacs. I'd challenge you to prove me wrong, but since GTO was never anything but a badge/hood/engine package on a base model car, there's no point.

Dude, I was agreeing (sp?) with you. ;)
Some tool stated the new GTO was simply a Grand Prix with an LSx engine. :rolleyes: Basically my point was since the Grand Prix, and GTO cars don't share anything besides styling cues, he couldn't be further from the truth, but in the past, that was a VERY true statement.
:thumb:

its lowsy sales sure... 18k a year, thats phanominal, for an xlr... it doesnt replace the f-bodys sales... with the camaro and firebird combined doing probably 100k a year, 18 is piddly stuff... and to me, the GTO just is plain, nothing really all that makes me wanna have the car, i'd rather have an ls1 f-body its just as fast.

Really; Camaro and Firebird combined doing 100k a year... 18k is piddly stuff?

I'm no sales expert, but didn't the combined F-Body not even crack 100k in its later years? Does anyone know how many of those sold were the SSes and WS6s? I'd imagine that it was a lot less than 18k. And, because it hasn't been mentioned enough yet (or maybe because everyone's forgotten how history really was) the GTO has never been agressive, unless you call a hood scoop and badge package agressive. Take the glasses off and look again.

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA



GTO has always looked like other pontiacs. I'd challenge you to prove me wrong, but since GTO was never anything but a badge/hood/engine package on a base model car, there's no point.

And let's not forget, The LS1 firebird has 'look at me' looks. It's sales trend looks something like how emanuel lewis's career. The other cars that the GTO resembles OTOH have fine sales records. hmmmmm, i wonder what's a better model to emulate?

As already said, why do threads about firebird degrade into GTO bash fests?


When did I say that the GTO needs more attitude? I don't believe I did. I think the Pontiac line in general needs more desirable cars. I know the new GTO is way more similiar to the old GTOs than most people seem to either realize or care to admit, but Pontiac does not really have anything that draws attention, besides the Solstice, and now freakin Saturn has a version of it themselves.

Dude, I was agreeing (sp?) with you. ;)
Some tool stated the new GTO was simply a Grand Prix with an LSx engine. :rolleyes: Basically my point was since the Grand Prix, and GTO cars don't share anything besides styling cues, he couldn't be further from the truth, but in the past, that was a VERY true statement.
:thumb:

I know you were agreeing with me, thats why i quoted you. I guess that could have read wrong if you weren't following the thought. i.e. i laughed at the first guy, used your quote to bash him, and then continued with why he made no sense.

I still see no reason why the Bird can't come back on a Vette chassis,just Call it a T/A

Would cost be a reason? what did 2k2 Ws6's sticker for?
overlap? serious?

someone please tell me :confused:

I still see no reason why the Bird can't come back on a Vette chassis,just Call it a T/A

Would cost be a reason? what did 2k2 Ws6's sticker for?
overlap? serious?

someone please tell me :confused:

A 2002 WS.6 stickered for low ~ mid 30s. The new Vette stickers for high 40s ~ low 50s. No way in hell are they going to bring it in on the Vette Chassis, and sell it for $15,000 ~ 20,000 less. It would deflate the "value" of the Vette.

A 2002 WS.6 stickered for low ~ mid 30s. The new Vette stickers for high 40s ~ low 50s. No way in hell are they going to bring it in on the Vette Chassis, and sell it for $15,000 ~ 20,000 less. It would deflate the "value" of the Vette.

Maybe they should make the Firebird more pricey, and give Pontiac a real halo car that more than camaroz28.com can aspire to. The Corvette already shares its platform with the XLR, and it may be more expensive than the vette, but it shows the that GM is willing to use this platform on other cars. Besides, back when the 4th gen was being terminated, didn't GM look at the Corvette chassis initially to see if they could build an f-body off of it?

Maybe they should make the Firebird more pricey, and give Pontiac a real halo car that more than camaroz28.com can aspire to. The Corvette already shares its platform with the XLR, and it may be more expensive than the vette, but it shows the that GM is willing to use this platform on other cars. Besides, back when the 4th gen was being terminated, didn't GM look at the Corvette chassis initially to see if they could build an f-body off of it?


this is what I believe... Make the Trans Am around 40k. maybe with a 5.3 and a LS2 in the WS6?

I see several problems with this. First, everyone is already bitching about paying $33K for a GTO, which is Pontiacs CURRENT halo car! Do you honestly think that people will step up to buy a $40K Firebird? Secondly, between the GTO & the Solstice Pontiac really doesn't need the Firebird. Third, GM will never allow a Pontiac Corvette to be built. Delorean tried that & got shut down. And Cadillac is a special case. It's always been allowed to play by it's own rules. Fourth, there is that whole brand differentiation policy. Everyone is already complaining that too many Pontiacs are just rebadged Chevy's! Wouldn't Firebird contribute to that perception? IF you could make a case for the Fierbird it would have to slot between the GTO & Solstice in both size & price & be different enough from the G6 that it wouldn't be competing with it for the same buyers! And I don't think that being RWD will be enough of a difference to justify it. Pretty tall order wouldn't you say?

I see several problems with this. First, everyone is already bitching about paying $33K for a GTO, which is Pontiacs CURRENT halo car! Do you honestly think that people will step up to buy a $40K Firebird? Secondly, between the GTO & the Solstice Pontiac really doesn't need the Firebird. Third, GM will never allow a Pontiac Corvette to be built. Delorean tried that & got shut down. And Cadillac is a special case. It's always been allowed to play by it's own rules. Fourth, there is that whole brand differentiation policy. Everyone is already complaining that too many Pontiacs are just rebadged Chevy's! Wouldn't Firebird contribute to that perception? IF you could make a case for the Fierbird it would have to slot between the GTO & Solstice in both size & price & be different enough from the G6 that it wouldn't be competing with it for the same buyers! And I don't think that being RWD will be enough of a difference to justify it. Pretty tall order wouldn't you say?

I think Firebird fans would, I'm not saying mass production here, maybe around the same #'s as the Solstice/Gto 18-20k

Well, gm should has listened to Delorean.

I don't think Ppl would complain about Vette Chassis overlap, just Minivan, Economy car.

to hell witht he GTO being the Halo car.

I see several problems with this. First, everyone is already bitching about paying $33K for a GTO, which is Pontiacs CURRENT halo car! Do you honestly think that people will step up to buy a $40K Firebird? Secondly, between the GTO & the Solstice Pontiac really doesn't need the Firebird. Third, GM will never allow a Pontiac Corvette to be built. Delorean tried that & got shut down. And Cadillac is a special case. It's always been allowed to play by it's own rules. Fourth, there is that whole brand differentiation policy. Everyone is already complaining that too many Pontiacs are just rebadged Chevy's! Wouldn't Firebird contribute to that perception? IF you could make a case for the Fierbird it would have to slot between the GTO & Solstice in both size & price & be different enough from the G6 that it wouldn't be competing with it for the same buyers! And I don't think that being RWD will be enough of a difference to justify it. Pretty tall order wouldn't you say?

The GTO is not a halo car that currently inspires a whole lotof passion from the public. I think that they could bring outa $40k car, if the content was good. It doesn't need to sell in numbers, just get people into the dealership. Personally though, I myself wouldn't go this route, I would just either drastically changes the GTO's exterior demeanor, or replace it with something more inspiring if/when GTO gets the axe. Not saying that has to be a Firebird, but I can see no real reason why it could not work as a halo car again.

Agreed ^^^^^^ :cool:

You can't have a halo car that is a "sleeper."

You can't have a halo car that is a "sleeper."

corvette is kinda... well... its not in ur face...