Shorty vs. Long-Tube header for '91 Z28?

Hi guys,

I've just been reading through numerous posts on headers here and have gotten a lot of information. I still have a question though...

Which is best for a '91 Z28, shorty or long-tube headers?
What are the cost/performance/installation trade-offs for each?

From what I gather long-tube have clearance issue but better performance. Shorty's don't have the clearance problems but you sacrifice some hp. Is this true?

Some info about my car: 305 TPI stock. I plan to upgrade to a 350 cu engine down the road and in the end I'd like to push 350 - 400 hp. It would stay a street car and I would cruise around for fun. I plan on getting a magnaflow cat + flowmaster cat-back.

Also, I don't want to have any obnoxious sounding exhaust system in the end. I'd like it to have that deep low rumble that I seem to hear most of the time on Mustangs. I've seen a lot of cars running open exhaust that I just cannot stand. I want this to be a respectable street car that doesn't sound like I should be at the strip.

Ideas? I'm looking at either headman or hooker headers.

Thanks,
Jeff

If you aren't looking for more than 350-400 hp, shorty or mid-length headers will be fine. A 1 3/4" primary would be the right size for a 350 putting out those numbers, but it would be overkill on your stock 305.

How long before you make the swap?

- Justin

If ride height is going to be an issue then stay away from LTs. If your car is lowered, or will be, and you are concerned about speed bumps, driveways, etc. LTs will not be your friend.

As for shorties, you do give up a little horsepower but for the piece of mind of knowing you wont be dragging your expensive LTs across every bump or driveway definitely makes them an attractive option.

BTW, I am going to be using the shorties for the reason listed above, and I am ok with leaving some horsepower on the table for piece of mind.

Justin,

Thanks for the tips, I plan to swap the 305 to 350 in anywhere from 1 - 2 years. My plan is to get a used block, have it cleaned-up and start building from there. Hopefully after a couple of years of slow build-up (small budget constraints) I'll be ready to drop it in.

When you say that 1-3/4" is over-kill for the 305, does that mean it will hurt performance? I think I saw another posting say that a 1-3/4" on a 305 was only a 10hp gain, but a 1-5/8" on a 305 got a 15hp gain.

Does this sound about right?

Jeff

Justin,

Thanks for the tips, I plan to swap the 305 to 350 in anywhere from 1 - 2 years. My plan is to get a used block, have it cleaned-up and start building from there. Hopefully after a couple of years of slow build-up (small budget constraints) I'll be ready to drop it in.

When you say that 1-3/4" is over-kill for the 305, does that mean it will hurt performance? I think I saw another posting say that a 1-3/4" on a 305 was only a 10hp gain, but a 1-5/8" on a 305 got a 15hp gain.

Does this sound about right?

Jeff

This might help you put this business in perspective. The late John Lingenfelter said that he kept to 1 5/8" headers until his engines reached at least 400 hp.

Thus the idea of 1 3/4" headers being overkill. Fit your needs into that equation.

I've seen engine tests where 1 1/2" shorty headers provided more useable power on a 383, under 5500 rpm. Who needs to rev higher than that on the street? :confused:

I have hedman long tubes, they were 135 new from summit and although my car isnt lowered, i dont have any problems scraping the ground....
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y45/speedingpenguin/firebirdmustangpics014.jpg

Thanks for the rule of thumb. I figured there had to be some type of equation for selecting primaries.

One more question though, what would the best collector size be for my application? 3", 2-1/2", or another?

I'm inclined to say 2-1/2" becasue the single CAT system I'm replacing will be 3" and two 2-1/2" pipes feeding one 3" outlet should be perfect. I think going to to 3" collectors would be a waste.

Right?

On a 305 shorties will be fine. On a 350, you are gonna want long-tubes. DEFFINENTLYO go w/ 1 5/8 primaries. The only time you want 1 3/4 or larger is on a 383 or larger :D

What about collector size? Should I go 3" or 2-1/2?
:shrug:

- Jeff

This might help you put this business in perspective. The late John Lingenfelter said that he kept to 1 5/8" headers until his engines reached at least 400 hp.

Thus the idea of 1 3/4" headers being overkill. Fit your needs into that equation.

I've seen engine tests where 1 1/2" shorty headers provided more useable power on a 383, under 5500 rpm. Who needs to rev higher than that on the street? :confused:

Under 5500, where are you driving. I am a firm believer that ALL street cars should be able to rev 7000...thats just me though. I would think about your plans for the car, if you plan on making some power in the future get what you will need for that. I don't see the point in buying headers 2 times. BTW I had hedman LT's on the old formula with the 355, they had PLENTY of ground clearance they are 1 5/8' primaries, and 3" collectors. I think they would be great for a stout 305 or mild 350...I just don't think shorties are worth the time and trouble of putting them on.

What about collector size? Should I go 3" or 2-1/2?
:shrug:

- Jeff

I would go w/ a 3" collector :D

But 89385formula, I had NO problems what-so-ever putting the shorties on my car. Then again.. my engine was completely torn-apart from the rebuild when I put them on :think:

This brings up another question which I had not thought about yet.... What are the installation issues with each: LT and Shorty?

I would have guessed before this that the Shorty would have been the easier set to install. What are everyone's experiences installing Shorty/LT headers? Did you encounter anything that required mods of other parts? :thumb:

My Lt swap was a cake to install. Shorty headers have poor plug access, and don't give much of a gain.

Shorties on a 305 will give you alsmost as much gain as long-tubes. Especially if your not pushing super-huge ammounts of hp. But my shortie header install was a piece of cake as well, but there is one HUGE downside; If you have A/C, you will have it no more unless your talented enough to somehow work around that :mad: I am so pissed I dont hvae a/c anymore :mad: :mad: :mad: The bracket wont mount w/ the head if you use the Hedman shorties.

:eek: Wow, this is one big downside. Well, I absolutely have to keep the A/C. Will you lose it only when using shorties? Or does it vary vendor to vendor? (i.e. will hooker shorties still allow the bracket?)

As far as LT vs. Shorty goes... I'm leaning towards LT now since I plan to move to a 350 down the road. As long as I don't loose any performance on my current 305, that should be ok.

I have no troubles with Hooker shorties and AC on my 86 with a 305. My AC compressor is on the driver's side, if that helps.

2 1/2" or 3" collectors doesn't matter. For the intermediate pipe, however, 3" is best.

:eek: Wow, this is one big downside. Well, I absolutely have to keep the A/C. Will you lose it only when using shorties? Or does it vary vendor to vendor? (i.e. will hooker shorties still allow the bracket?)

As far as LT vs. Shorty goes... I'm leaning towards LT now since I plan to move to a 350 down the road. As long as I don't loose any performance on my current 305, that should be ok.

Ya, you have NO IDEA how pissed I was when I couldn't get my a/c bracket to mount up :mad:
But like you said, if your going to go 350 in the future, get the LT's. Shorties on your 305 will give you PLENTY of gain. There is little to no difference between shorties and LT's on a moderate powered 305. After the 400-450hp mark I would *think* you want the LT's though :D

I have no troubles with Hooker shorties and AC on my 86 with a 305. My AC compressor is on the driver's side, if that helps.

2 1/2" or 3" collectors doesn't matter. For the intermediate pipe, however, 3" is best.

Ya, mine is on teh drivers side above the power steering pump. If I would have known I could have kept my A/C by using Hooker's, then I would have spent the extra money and gotten them :mad:

I honestly don't believe shorties are worth it, sure they will give some gain. I really don't know anyone that would rather spend just as much for less performance. Or anyone for that matter that says i will be happy with 300 hp...people may say it until they start modding..then they get addicted and end up buying shorties, then a year or two later buying LT's. I say get what ya pay for and do it right the first time. For example my 94 had Edelbrock shorties on it when I bought it, i swapped to LT's soon after and noticed a very big difference over the shorties. If you really start modding with cams/heads/intakes etc, the shorties will be a major restriction.

True,
I may say 350 - 400 now, but who knows what I'll stop at. When I first bought the car I was of the mindset that everything I put on the car should target my end-goal car. I don't want to put say one intake manifold on it now and then replace it in a year. It's just not cost-effective. :no:

So I totally agree with you 89385formula. I just started the thread because I wanted to know the benefits/tradeoffs with both shorties and LT. After everyone's suggestion here is what I plan to finally go with:

Long-Tube, 1-5/8" primary, 2-1/2" collector, 3" y-pipe, ceramic coated.
Vendor: Either Hedman or HookerI just need to do a little surfing to find the right vendor for the right price. Plus this will be added in series with a 3" Dynomaz CAT and 3" Flowmaster exhaust kit.

Thanks for all your help, if I run into any problems during the install I'll be back with another posting. :D

- Jeff

True,
I may say 350 - 400 now, but who knows what I'll stop at. When I first bought the car I was of the mindset that everything I put on the car should target my end-goal car. I don't want to put say one intake manifold on it now and then replace it in a year. It's just not cost-effective. :no:

So I totally agree with you 89385formula. I just started the thread because I wanted to know the benefits/tradeoffs with both shorties and LT. After everyone's suggestion here is what I plan to finally go with:

Long-Tube, 1-5/8" primary, 2-1/2" collector, 3" y-pipe, ceramic coated.
Vendor: Either Hedman or HookerI just need to do a little surfing to find the right vendor for the right price. Plus this will be added in series with a 3" Dynomaz CAT and 3" Flowmaster exhaust kit.

Thanks for all your help, if I run into any problems during the install I'll be back with another posting. :D

- Jeff

Glad to here it. Let me fill you in on a few things real quickly. Your choice for Lt's would be fine, however neither of the vendors you have chosen fall into that category. The hookers are the most popular for the 3rd gens for LT's, they hae 1 3/4" primaries and are pretty costly at $400 uncoated. Next, Hedman LT's are 1 5/8" primaries but both of these headers have 3" collectors. Next, the hookers have a few advantages...they are, they fit with minimal modification..but they are a tight fit. Next, there are a few y pipes available for the hookers so you can hook up the stock or stock style catback. Unfortunately, there are NO y pipes specific to the Hedman LT's. So that pretty much leaves you modifying a catback for the hooker, or having a custom y pipe made. The Hedmans are quite a bit cheaper, at about $130 uncoated. The hedmans also have better ground clearance as well, they tuck alittle closer to the body. Last, if your car is equipped with a T5 transmission, the collector of the Hedmans would need slight modification. Both are great headers, I HAVE had both. The hookers end up being a tad easier, and about the same money if you are going to have the Hedmans modified at an exhaust shop. Also, I know you may want 1 5/8" primaries for the 305, but the difference if you ask me would be negligable...i mean think about it...just an 1/8 of an inch difference in primaries. If You have an auto car the Hedmans fit perfect and would be my choice if you were short on funds but wanted a good header.

Thanks again for the tips!

Based on your recommendations, I think then I will go with the Hooker Header's with the 1-3/4" primaries. They may cost more, but overall it sounds like the install will be easier.

Reasoning:
1.) I can buy a y-pipe to go with them
2.) I want to go to a T-56 tanny later and if there is an issue witht he T5, I'm sure it will happen witht he T-56, better to be safe than frustrated later on!
3.) Totally agree about to 1/8" difference as negligible! I didn't know hooker didn't offer the 1-5/8", but I'm willing to go bigger, just as long as I don't sacrifice any realy power on the 305.
4.) Funds are not an issue with this particular install (I just got a bonus check from work and am looking to blow most of it on car upgrades! :) )
Thanks again!

Well, the 1/8" difference really does mean something, but not until you get into the upper RPM range. If you go with 1 3/4" primary LTs on a basically stock 305, you will still see a power increase across the board, but it will be especially noticable in the upper RPM range.

- Justin

What I meant is that its negligable because it has been stated that the difference between the 1 5/8 and 1 3/4 was like 5-10 hp....but in negative fashion. I agree that the bigger headers will help in the upper R's without a doubt. However I don't agree that you will lose power with the 1/8" larger headers, thats all.

Thought I'd provide some feedback as to the final decision I made as far as header choice. I ended up going with the following:

Hooker Comp, Ceramic Shorty, 1-5/8" primaries, 3" collectors, an Hooker Y-pipe.
Part Numbers were: 2460-1HKR (http://www.holley.com/products.asp?product=2460-1HKR) [header] and 16767HKR (http://www.holley.com/products.asp?product=16767HKR) [Y-pipe].

I ended up with this for several reasons:
1.) I found out that hooker shorties WILL allow A/C to remain.
2.) If I went with LT, there are no factory Y-pipes that would allow me to use the stock system. I would have to have a muffler shop sutome make me one.
3.) Cost was more reasonable. The shorties cost me $420 including Y-pipe, while the LT has $650 just headers. :eek: Altough I said before money was not an issue, there comes a point when you just have to do what makes sense!

Thanks for your help! :bow:
Jeff

On a 305 shorties will be fine. On a 350, you are gonna want long-tubes. DEFFINENTLYO go w/ 1 5/8 primaries. The only time you want 1 3/4 or larger is on a 383 or larger :D

Don't tell this to the LS1 crowd. LS1's are smaller actually less than 350 in^3 and the norm is a 1.75" primary tube.

Studytime

89385formula - Don't ever use the Edelbrock shorty headers as a comparison against anything as they are the worst of the bunch. Of course you and others may have gained power by ditching them and going with LTs. However, even MORE research on your part would have led you to other shorty header options. SLPs 1 3/4" primary shorties are excellent headers, and many have run them into the 10s. Several, like you, assumed shorties must be restricting power and spent a grand to upgrade to LTs only to gain a tenth or two. I've had some old Hedman LTs, early Edelbrock dual diameter primary TES, and SLPs 1 3/4". The SLPs do EVERYTHING better!

Besides ground clearance, shorties also allow emissions items to remain intact. If you have strict emissions where you live, you cannot pass with LTs. LTs also require either a custom y-pipe or dual exhaust, or an expensive aftermarket y-pipe. That MUST be factored into LT pricing, as shorty prices often reflect the inclusion of a y-pipe. LT's also have many clearance issues. The starter, a-arms, and floorpans interfere on some brands. Plug clearance on the SLPs is the best I've ever seen in a 3rd or 4th gen F-body.

I have SLP headers w/ y-pipe... They run about 500-550 dollars. They fit in place great just like the stockers and, all stock acc. work fine with them, even the smog pump still hooks up.. No problems with speed bumps or anything.

I would always go with long tubes over shorties. In order for the "header effect" to properly work, the primary tubes have to be equal length and fairly long. So basically all shorties are is a larger tube exhaust manifold. Sure they will be better than stock (usually) but not worth the money if you ask me. I believe Hooker super competition long tube headers are the only ones that actually have equal length primary tubes out of the bunch.

^Have you ever seen the stock manifolds on 305's? I drink out of straws that are larger than the ports on the stockers! ANYTHING on a 305 is better than stock. Sitting Bull (another cz28'er) experienced 30-dyno hp from doing a full exhaust on his 305.

^Have you ever seen the stock manifolds on 305's? I drink out of straws that are larger than the ports on the stockers! ANYTHING on a 305 is better than stock. Sitting Bull (another cz28'er) experienced 30-dyno hp from doing a full exhaust on his 305.

So like I said, shorties are like larger tube exhaust manifolds.

I would always go with long tubes over shorties. In order for the "header effect" to properly work, the primary tubes have to be equal length and fairly long. So basically all shorties are is a larger tube exhaust manifold. Sure they will be better than stock (usually) but not worth the money if you ask me. I believe Hooker super competition long tube headers are the only ones that actually have equal length primary tubes out of the bunch.

Why per say do you put so much emphasis on the tubes being the exact same length? There are some really detailed implications that such a comment would make.

Studytime

89385formula - Don't ever use the Edelbrock shorty headers as a comparison against anything as they are the worst of the bunch. Of course you and others may have gained power by ditching them and going with LTs. However, even MORE research on your part would have led you to other shorty header options. SLPs 1 3/4" primary shorties are excellent headers, and many have run them into the 10s. Several, like you, assumed shorties must be restricting power and spent a grand to upgrade to LTs only to gain a tenth or two. I've had some old Hedman LTs, early Edelbrock dual diameter primary TES, and SLPs 1 3/4". The SLPs do EVERYTHING better!

Besides ground clearance, shorties also allow emissions items to remain intact. If you have strict emissions where you live, you cannot pass with LTs. LTs also require either a custom y-pipe or dual exhaust, or an expensive aftermarket y-pipe. That MUST be factored into LT pricing, as shorty prices often reflect the inclusion of a y-pipe. LT's also have many clearance issues. The starter, a-arms, and floorpans interfere on some brands. Plug clearance on the SLPs is the best I've ever seen in a 3rd or 4th gen F-body.

I am sure that you are right about Edelbrock headers being pretty much junk, but personally I dislike the SLP's just as much. I have put a pair of SLP's on 2 4th gens, and plug access isn't near as good as my LT's. I spent far less then a grand to switch to LT's ans ORY....and I picked up about 3-4 tenths....probably was even more, but I replaced the clutch with a Spec 3 and lost about 1 tenth in the 60 ft, so it was hard to compare. My Lt swap took far less time than any of the shorty headers I have ever put on. SLP headers really aren't in the same league as LT's or a good midth length header like Mac's....sorry. I have seen multiple dyno runs back to back and the only thing different being shorty to LT's...and pick up 10 or more RWHP...especially on a modified engine.

Why per say do you put so much emphasis on the tubes being the exact same length? There are some really detailed implications that such a comment would make.

Studytime

The main effect of a real header is that it makes sure that the exhaust gasses from each cylinder reach the collecter at even intervals so that they minimally interfere with each other. This reduction of interferance is really the only reason they seperate the pipes at all instead of just making an exhaust manifold with bigger pipes.

but personally I dislike the SLP's just as much. I have put a pair of SLP's on 2 4th gens, and plug access isn't near as good as my LT's.

Odd, I thought we were talking about 3rd gen headers here, and NOT 4th gen.

Car Craft did a writeup on this topic, and an in depth one at that, about a year ago on a typical street/track SBC. I believe the engine was making around 400-450HP, and the LTs ended up making LESS power than the shorties.

And as far as the dyno run comparisons: They're completely invalid. Y-pipe design (or lack thereof) can affect power output as much as header design. And since I've never seen any LT use a y-pipe similar to a shorty, 10rwhp could have been due to the more effecient y-pipe.

Further more, on a 3rd gen, unless the car is already equipped with a mini starter, all but the Hedmans interfere. Sure you could cheap out like some with uncoated Hedmans and some horrid y-pipe for a few hundred bucks, but most opt for the superior Hooker Super Comps, coated, with a mandrel bent y-pipe and requisite mini starter that DOES total around a grand. Price it.

mini starter
What's that?

Whats a mini starter? Exactly as the name implies: its a miniature starter. Its about 2/3 the size of a standard SBC starter. LT1s and some 4.3s came with them from the factory.

Wow, everybodies really up in arms about this shorties vs. Lt's. I can safely say I don't know much about exhaust and have never really cared. This guy has a stock 305. He is planning on putting in a 400 hp 350 at some point. I don't think that the difference between shorties or Lt's is going to have that much effect on the hp he is talking about. Now if he were running a 600hp dragster...

^Have you ever seen the stock manifolds on 305's? I drink out of straws that are larger than the ports on the stockers! ANYTHING on a 305 is better than stock. Sitting Bull (another cz28'er) experienced 30-dyno hp from doing a full exhaust on his 305.


I have never dynoed my engine, so I don't want anyone to be left with the impression that I have :no:

But a great many magazine articles have confirmed that 30 hp is the standard gain when using shorties and a 3" intermediate pipe to replace the LG4 305 exhaust setup GM used in the third gen Camaros and Firebirds :)

^Oh, my bad. You have/had a 305 in one of your Z's though, right?
You are talking about 30 rear-wheel hp, or crank?

Hmm, my hooker comp headers (lt) were about $130... Installed without a hitch (no pulling motor etc) and I"m working on getting a Y pipe made up.

Guys,

This was a good thread! It's exactly what I wanted to see... the trade-offs of LT and shorty headers. Marc, I have to thak you about the CarCraft mention. I looked it up on the web and found the article. For reference it is: http://carcraft.com/techarticles/116_0312_test/

According to that article, they experienced a 34hp at crank when going from a factory exhaust manifold to hooker 1-5/8" header (pretty sure it's a shorty). Granted this was on a 350 and not my 305.

Ultimately they found that the difference between shorty and LT was that shorties pushed the torque on the higher rpms (>3400) while LT did the exact opposite. You can read the article for further details.

Enjoy and thanks again to everyone.

Jeff

There is a lot of misinformation about headers out there, with much of it coming from car magazines. That being said, the Car Craft article referenced previously is one of the better ones that I've seen. If you want to learn a lot more about headers, check out this link:

http://www.headersbyed.com/magsdont.htm

This particular link points out many common mistakes that car magazines make when comparing headers. Check out the rest of the headersbyed website while you are at it if you really want to know about headers. It contains a lot of good information. Also, this site seems to be the least comercially biased site I have found on the internet so far.